January 26, 2009

The Mood in Israel Now

The mood in Israel during the immediate aftermath of the Gaza war is markedly different from the mood in the wake of the Second Lebanon War in 2006. Things felt precarious and vulnerable then. Confidence in both the government and the military disintegrated. When Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah declared his “divine victory,” many, if not most, Israelis shuddered and thought he might be correct. This time, by contrast, I didn’t meet a single Israeli who thinks Hamas defeated the Israel Defense Forces in Gaza.

The Arab-Israeli conflict is nowhere near finished, and the problems in Gaza will endure for a long time, but the Israeli military and government spent two and a half years intensely studying what went wrong in Lebanon in 2006 and corrected nearly all those mistakes. Most Israelis I spoke to in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem last week feel a tremendous sense of relief and seem more at ease than they have been in years.

The results speak for themselves. The IDF wasn’t able to halt or even disrupt Hezbollah’s Katyusha rocket attacks on Israeli cities in July and August of 2006, but Hamas’s ability to fire its own crude rockets was reduced by almost 75 percent. According to Major General Eitan Ben-Eliyahu, Hamas fired 75 rockets per day at the beginning of the war, 35 rockets per day in the middle of the war, and only 20 rockets per day at the end. At the same time, Hamas was only able to inflict a tenth as many casualties on Israeli civilians and soldiers as Hezbollah did in 2006. During the final ten days of the war, again according to Ben-Eliyahu, Hamas did not kill a single Israeli. Ismail Haniyeh’s predictable declaration of “victory” could hardly sound more empty if he delivered his boast from inside a prison cell.

Read the rest in Commentary Magazine.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at January 26, 2009 8:56 AM
Comments

Glad you are back MJT. Thanks for the article. It appears that the IDF didn't enter most of Gaza's population centers and try to seriously degrade Hamas. It further appears that both Hamas and the IDF avoided really going after each other. The IDF also might have went in over kinetic to reduce IDF casualties at the cost of additional Gazan civilian casualties.

Is there any data on Hamas' losses?
-how many Hamas fighters wounded or killed?
-how many of these wounded or killed Hamas fighters were senior cadre?

Is there a breakdown of civilian Gazan casualties?

Without all of this information it is difficult to draw any substantive determinations about this last tragic war.

Would it be fair to compare the Gaza war to the IA's charge of the knights offensive to seize Basrah in March/April 2008? How did the IDF perform relative to the IA and MNF-I combat enablers?

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 9:33 AM

An alternate view:

"It is very dangerous for the Israel Defense Forces to believe it won the war when there was no war. The expressions of satisfaction and praise for the war's outcome voiced by the army's top brass may lead the IDF to draw the wrong conclusions. Contrary to the image portrayed by reports in the Israeli media - asserting that the IDF's performance in the war was near-perfect and that the army adopted the lessons from the Second Lebanon War - in reality, not a single battle was fought during the 22 days of fighting.

"The Hamas fighters did not even try to stop the IDF soldiers who entered the Strip, opting to withdraw without a fight. The challenge the soldiers were faced with in their advance on Gaza City was not - as senior command had said prior to the operation - hand-to-hand combat with determined fighters, armed to the teeth and willing to die, but the need to find booby traps and explosives, and occasionally to neutralize individual snipers as well. This is not war. It is not even a real battle."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058460.html

Posted by: Brian Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 10:04 AM

An informative historical perspective, Michael.
Thanks.

Another topic for later maybe: I'll be curious to see how the losers handle the upcoming Iraqi elections.

Posted by: Paul S. Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 4:22 PM

Ahh, Anand, always nice to have a reliable apologist for Hamas/terrorists on the blog.

Darn that IDF; you know, going in "over-kinetic" , causing all those "civilian" casualties and all. Unlike your friendly Hamas terrorists of course.

BTW, would you mind stating what Wars were not tragic?

Posted by: rsnyder Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 5:22 PM

MJT, when you get around to it, could you perhaps share what the IDF and Israeli government shared with you regarding Phosphorous bombs?

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/search?q=phosphorus

Did Israel use any Phosphorus bombs other than for smoke?

Anther question. The US uniformed military is widely regarded as a more credible source for information than any other part of the US government (except for maybe the US supreme court) and correctly so. Can the same be said for the IDF? Can the IDF lie if ordered to do so by the PM? Do top IDF generals need to be approved by the legislature (like in the US.) Is the IDF legally required to honestly answer all questions to the Israeli parliament regardless of the orders they get from the PM?

Many Palestinians distrust the IDF. Why is this? Their distrust of Israeli politicians is understandable. What Israeli institutions are most trusted by the Palestinians? By Israeli Arabs?

Without trust, mutual respect and mutual understanding between Palestinians and Israelis, peace will be difficult to attain.

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 5:27 PM

rsnyder, why shouldn't the IDF be held up to the same standards as our GIs?

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 5:28 PM

"Did Israel use any Phosphorus bombs other than for smoke?"

If I am not mistaking the same as with cluster bombs use of this weapon is not prohibited.
With that said I personally did not see any evidence that IDF used those weapons for anything other than illumination and/or smoke cover.
Any reason to think they did?

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 6:16 PM

anand:

"rsnyder, why shouldn't the IDF be held up to the same standards as our GIs?"

And how long have you been beating your wife, anand?

AZZeny said it best about you on the previous thread:

"Anand, your questions are rhetorical devices -- a disingenuous means to convey your own point of view while being able to avoid taking responsibility for it."

Who is to say the IDF isn't held to higher standards than the US military? You can frame the question, but not the argument. The real question is why the horrific (and seemingly endless) atrocities and war crimes by Hamas are of lesser concern to you.

So how long HAVE you been beating your wife, anand?

Posted by: Li'l Mamzer Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 6:16 PM

leo -

Even the notoriously anti-Israel International Red Cross issued a statement saying they had no evidence that IDF shells containing phosphorus were used improperly.

Can we move on, please?

Posted by: Li'l Mamzer Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 6:19 PM

Li'l Mamzer, how do you think the IDF compares to the MNF-I and IA's performance in Iraq?

Perhaps you might compare the IDF attack on Gaza to the IA charge of the knights operation to liberate Basrah.

Personally I don't get it. Either Hamas is a serious threat, in which case you go in on the ground against them--taking significant casualties--and degrade Hamas significantly (but not remove them . . . that is for the PA and others), or Hamas isn't. What was the point of all the Gazan civilian deaths if Hamas isn't seriously degraded?

My views on Hamas: They backed that ball of subhuman slime Zarkawi in 2006. The largest protest in Iraq related to Gaza had 2,000 people. There weren't large demonstrations in the West Bank either. Hamas has many enemies in Iraq, among Palestinians, and among other Arabs. Hamas has only itself to blame for that. If this war was for the Gazan people, Hamas should have been significantly degraded, so that the Palestinians could liberate themselves afterward.

Was this war fought to save the Gazans? (The IA fights to save the Iraqis, the ANA/NATO fights to save the Afghans, what do the IDF fight for?)

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 8:19 PM

Anand,

The Gaza conflict was a defensive war to save the people of Southern Israel from rocket attack. It was also a preventative war of deterrence that was aimed to stop Hamas from acquiring longer-range rockets that can hit Tel Aviv, Jerusalam, Ben-Gurion airport, and the Dimona nuclear power plant.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 8:26 PM

There is no need to compare.

As far as Israel is concerned Hamas is (hopefully was) threat to citizens of Israel and had to be destroyed or deterred at very least. Let's hope Israel succeeded for none of us (I assume) wants repeat of another Gaza.

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 8:31 PM

"The Gaza conflict was a defensive war to save the people of Southern Israel from rocket attack. It was also a preventative war of deterrence that was aimed to stop Hamas from acquiring longer-range rockets that can hit Tel Aviv, Jerusalam, Ben-Gurion airport, and the Dimona nuclear power plant."

The only way to achieve these goals strategically is a successful Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. This requires 3 dimensional operations (a.k.a. nation building.) What is Israel's plan for achieving this? How does this war fit into that strategy?

Tactically the war can only deter Hamas if it inflicted sufficient damage on Hamas. That is why I asked:
1) how many Hamas fighters killed or wounded?
2) how many senior Hamas cadre killed or wounded?
3) Gazan civilians killed?

I don't think Hamas gives a damn about Palestinian civilians. Killing Palestinian civilians does not deter or harm Hamas. Dead Palestinian civilians only harm Israel.

Strategically the war in Gaza can only "save the people of Southern Israel from rocket attack" and establish "deterrence that was aimed to stop Hamas from acquiring longer-range rockets" if Hamas is degraded sufficiently to give Gazans a fighting chance to free themselves from Hamas; and is followed up by civil military operations to improve the quality of life of the Gazan people.

Has the war contributed to these goals?

The way I see it, the only justification for Israel risking the lives of so many civilian Gazans was if the war caused massive damage to Hamas, and thereby facilitated a better outcome for the Gazan people.

From your description, and other descriptions, it doesn't appear that the IDF went into Gazan civilian population centers sufficiently to significantly harm Hamas. Is this observation incorrect?

MJT, we went to Korea in large part to save the Koreans; we went to Vietnam to in large part to save the South Vietnamese; we went to Iraq in large part ot save the Iraqis; we went to Afghanistan in large part to save the Afghans.

We did this because we understood that we benefited when they benefited.

Did Israel go to Gaza to save the Gazans, understanding that Israel benefits when Ganzans benefit?

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 10:08 PM

Speaking of double standards, I've been trying to figure out recently why I get more angry pn this website, even though it's relatively intectually open and relatively debatable, compared to more juvenile ones. I'm sure there's perverse sociology at work, but I just realized it's definitely related to the comment section and the inifite rsnyders that hang out in it. I'm seeing Mike's itchy trigger finger moderation policy in a new light now, I admit. Still an opponent, but the theoretical benefits would be clear.

I'm often not very nice around here and deserve whatever flaming comes my way, but anand is making a simple, earnest appeal for data and information, -oh, and he calls a war that killed hundreds of noncombatants "tragic", a very obvious moral call, and what he gets for it is to be harrassed by you stupid dic*s. People like you are the stifling death of respectful debate.

Maybe now I can be politer than usual to Mike with that catharsis out of the way.

It was also a preventative war of deterrence that was aimed to stop Hamas from acquiring longer-range rockets that can hit Tel Aviv, Jerusalam, Ben-Gurion airport, and the Dimona nuclear power plant.

Very sanitary language. I like this better:

The status quo balance of terror between Israel, Hamas, and Hezbollah is less bad now than it was, and that’s as much as anyone should hope for in the Middle East.

Put it together with this,

But confidence in the Israeli government and military has been restored.

and I came away with two thoughts.

First: they just killed 1200 people, maybe half noncombatants, to make citizens feel better about their government. Not just a benevolent side effect now, but the explicit purpose of the fight. Lovely.

Second:
The status quo balance of terror between Israel, Hamas, and Hezbollah is less bad now

Another way of putting that: we made them bleed/fear us and we're pleased with the strength we exhibited by doing so. The problem is, I don't know who I'm paraphrasing now, you or a Hamas spokeperson on one of their "better" days. No offense, Mike. I'm not equating you with Hamas, hopefully you get that. It's just too obvious a parallel ("balance of terror"? how can someone use that phrase and then get mad about moral equivalency arguments without seeing their own self-parody?) to walk away from.

I remember how shocked and self-righteous people are, and the conclusions they draw about the citizens of various Arab countries when said citizens express satisfaction with terrorist attacks. And I'll think about the shorthand description of Israelis sleeping, proud of their victory, while the losers on the other side continue with 100 days of loss for their dead and mained.

The events are different, but it's the same human impulse. (We could call it the "suck on this" impulse.) It's always barbarianism as the other guy cheers their victory over your dead children -, quickly forgotten when the wheel comes around. And that's why the self-righteous seem like the most wicked people in the room (yes, i am aware of the beam in my eye, thanks).

Wars of deterrence are immoral and (arguably) illegal. Israel was actually responding to rocket attacks, and I'm glad - for their sake and for the sake of my jaded but very real stake in the country that - that they maintained that comparatively good excuse for their punitive expedition.

Bonus question: What's the difference between a "punitive expedition" and a "war of deterrence"?

Posted by: glasnost Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 10:16 PM

" Bonus question: What's the difference between a "punitive expedition" and a "war of deterrence"?"

Extra bonus question what is the difference between an idiot and a fool?

Whether Israel killed 1200 or 1,200,000 is irrelevant. Enemy life is worthless or they would not be the enemy. The choice is entirely that of the Arabs. They can stop fighting at any time. Israel is not obligated to fight on her enemies terms, she is however obligated to defend her people irrespective of the cost to the enemy. Israeli's don't sleep proudly tonight. They just want to be able to sleep without enduring rocket attacks. There is no requirement for proportionate responses, a typical leftist construct neither is there any such thing as an illegal war, another leftist construct. Funny these constructs never hinder leftist's when it suits their purposes.

Posted by: cubanbob Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 10:40 PM

glasnost, I agree with much of what you wrote. This is interesting because we sometimes didn't see eye to eye regarding the ISF, GoI, and MNF-I operations to support them.

cubanbob:
"Whether Israel killed 1200 or 1,200,000 is irrelevant. Enemy life is worthless or they would not be the enemy." Are you kidding me? Thinking this way is un American and unpatriotic.

"The choice is entirely that of the Arabs. They can stop fighting at any time."
And you really believe that the Palestinian people control Hamas?
"Israel is not obligated to fight on her enemies terms, she is however obligated to defend her people irrespective of the cost to the enemy." Israel is obligated to defend her people, but not defend them irrespective of the cost to the enemy. The enemy is human too. Enemies today can become friends tomorrow. The suffering of our enemies doesn't benefit us; rather the suffering of our enemies causes our own suffering (in empathy with their suffering.)

"Israeli's don't sleep proudly tonight." I agree.

"They just want to be able to sleep without enduring rocket attacks." They don't "JUST" want to sleep without enduring rocket attacks. Isrealis want other things too, such as the welfare of their Palestinian brothers and sisters.

"There is no requirement for proportionate responses, a typical leftist construct" I don't know what proportionate response means.

"neither is there any such thing as an illegal war, another leftist construct." Huh. There is such a thing as illegal war under international law. You can argue that Israel's war in Gaza was not illegal.

"Funny these constructs never hinder leftist's when it suits their purposes." Shouldn't all of us hold ourselves to higher standards than extreme leftists?

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 26, 2009 11:55 PM

Anand,

Nation-building by Israelis in Gaza is impossible. The Palestinians will not let them. The hatred is just too high. It isn't like the US in Iraq where anti-Americanism is weaker and more flexible.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten Author Profile Page at January 27, 2009 6:24 AM

glasnost, many, if not most, of anand's questions are ones that he could answer himself with a wee bit of smart, balanced research.

Oddly, the majority of the links he makes when he does so are to pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel sources. If one comes back with actual historical or neutral-semi-authoritative sources, he shifts the topic and asks new loaded questions. Then he'll eventually circle around to the earlier questions as if no one ever answered him.

Catch him out too far from his shell, and he makes some toady camoflage statement like "Isrealis[sic] want other things too, such as the welfare of their Palestinian brothers and sisters." No one who has followed his comments across a couple threads would ever think for a second he believes that.

Posted by: AZZenny Author Profile Page at January 27, 2009 6:44 AM

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the blog post From the Front: 01/27/2009 News and Personal dispatches from the front and the home front.

Posted by: David M Author Profile Page at January 27, 2009 6:44 AM

Anand: "Isrealis want other things too, such as the welfare of their Palestinian brothers and sisters."

That is a desirable outcome but it is not the only possible outcome.

Bottom line, Israelis are not Palestinian keepers. If Palestinians prefer to live chin deep in shit it is their business. They just have to remember not to make too big of waves.

PS. To all peace dreamers out there, do you know that Israel was attacked today? One soldier died and two wounded. Keep dreaming. Israel, however, got work to do.

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 27, 2009 8:07 AM

"Israelis are not Palestinian keepers." Ever heard that I am my brothers keeper? The Palestinians and Israelis both belong to the same land. They are both a common people (Jewish, mMslim and Christian) and each others keeper. Do Israel's 1.4 million muslim Arab citizens agree with you? As long as they don't, the concerns of muslim Arab Israelis are the concerns of all Israelis.

"If Palestinians prefer to live chin deep in shit it is their business. They just have to remember not to make too big of waves." What makes you think the Palestinians want to live poor, insecure and challenging lives? They see the Intel and Microsoft campuses in Israel. They see that Israel has far more venture capital per capita than any other country on earth. The Palestinians want to share what their Israeli brothers and sisters have got. The question before all of us is how to facilitate the Palestinians getting what they want.

Do you really think Palestinians love being kicked around by corrupt and incompetent Hamas and Fatah thugs who ruin their schools, provide poor governance and drive the private sector away?

BTW, the reason the Palestinians don't have a competent police force (providing security, stability, and facilitating prosperity for all Palestinians) is because Israel keeps blocking US efforts to train the PA police. The Israelis have impeded 3 D ops along the governance/security/civil/economic lines in Gaza and the West Bank.

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 27, 2009 10:33 AM

"What makes you think the Palestinians want to live poor, insecure and challenging lives?"

What makes you think the "Palestnians" don't prefer killing Jews and the annihilation of their neighbor's nation to being poor and insecure?
=========================================

"They see that Israel has far more venture capital per capita than any other country on earth. "

They see, but can't seem to connect the dots: Stop The Jihad = Start The Progress...of course, that equation only works if one's definition of 'progress' isn't the slaughter of the Jews.
=========================================

"The Palestinians want to share what their Israeli brothers and sisters have got. "

BULLSHIT. They don't want to SHARE. They want to TAKE. What planet do you live on?
=========================================

"The question before all of us is how to facilitate the Palestinians getting what they want."

No, the question is when disingenuous comment-thread masturbators like you stop the bald pretense of what the "Palestinians" want.
=========================================

"Do you really think Palestinians love being kicked around by corrupt and incompetent Hamas and Fatah thugs who ruin their schools, provide poor governance and drive the private sector away?"

Do you think they prefer Hamas to making peace with the sovereign Jewish nation next door? You delude yourself if you think they don't.
=========================================

"BTW, the reason the Palestinians don't have a competent police force (providing security, stability, and facilitating prosperity for all Palestinians) is because Israel keeps blocking US efforts to train the PA police."

More bullshit. Fatah and Hamas couldn't "facilitate" their way out of a paper bag. At the root of every comment you make is a bucket of tar and a paintbrush for your use on the scapegoat Jew. A more transparent commenter than you is impossible to imagine.

Posted by: Li'l Mamzer Author Profile Page at January 27, 2009 11:05 AM

Anand

The Palestinians, who receive more aid per capita than any people on earth, are not poor and miserable because they lack venture capital. They are poor because they prefer corruption, theft, and war over prosperity, peace, moderation and responsible governance.

Ask yourself this, Anand. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, do you think anything would change? I don’t. I think the Palestinians (and much of the Arab world) would spend three days shooting their guns into the air in celebration and then they’d return to their miserable lives in their corruption ridden societies.

Posted by: Boojum Author Profile Page at January 27, 2009 1:17 PM

Ever heard that I am my brothers keeper?

Brother - yes, enemy - no.

The Palestinians and Israelis both belong to the same land. They are both a common people (Jewish, mMslim and Christian) and each others keeper.

How did you get this idea?

Do Israel's 1.4 million muslim Arab citizens agree with you?

What makes you think they do not?

As long as they don't, the concerns of muslim Arab Israelis are the concerns of all Israelis.

I think either you meant to say something else or I did not understand what you said.

What makes you think the Palestinians want to live poor, insecure and challenging lives?

What makes you think they do not? Or better yet, what makes you think Palestinians are willing to get off welfare and go to work?

Do you really think Palestinians love being kicked around by corrupt and incompetent Hamas and Fatah thugs...?

Irrelevant, they let'em.

BTW, the reason the Palestinians don't have a competent police force (providing security, stability, and facilitating prosperity for all Palestinians) is because Israel keeps blocking US efforts to train the PA police.

Hah? The reason Palestinians do not have competent anything beginning with they own state is because they do not want it. Because Palestinians do not want state next to, they want it instead of. Quite impossible but they keep trying none the less.

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 27, 2009 2:48 PM

Great to see you back Mike. Enjoy the rain...

IMHO what we've witnessed in the Palestinian territories is a new form of government with a new form of income generation for the leaders of that government. Maybe we call this new governmental form Thugist and the practitioners simply Thugs. The income is derived by shaking down the residents of the community (nothing new here) combined with theft of significant donations meant for the poor downtrodden residents. The government means of production is a new tool called the Trigger Finger.

Wikipedia-Yasser Arafat, Financial dealings, "Also in 2003, a team of American accountants–hired by Arafat's own finance ministry–began examining Arafat's finances. The team claimed that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion, with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the US and the Cayman Islands. The head of the investigation stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public."

Yet more evidence of this Thugist movement; "a former World Bank official whom Arafat appointed Finance Minister of the PNA in 2002—Arafat's commodity monopolies could accurately be seen as gouging his own people, "especially in Gaza which is poorer, which is something that is totally unacceptable and immoral." Fayyad claims that Arafat used $20 million from public funds to pay the leadership of the PNA security forces (the Preventive Security Service) alone." Also Wikipedia - Yasser Arafat.

So, Arafat dies with nearly a $1 Billion in the bank and none of the other Thugs notice??? Somehow that doesn't pass the smell test.

Is it possible that the new "means of production" is simply trigger fingers? Palestinian women keep producing fingers. The Thugocracy of the moment (PLO, Fatah, PA, Hamas) molds those fingers into "trigger" fingers and stirs the pot. Trigger fingers get killed, the Trugocracy cries that the fingers weren't part of the income stream, and the money pours in. And, at the end of the day the Thugs make more money... Doesn't Arafat's wife and daughter live in the penthouse of some Paris hotel?

No, it really couldn't be this simple... The western press would have exposed this scam. After all we've seen just how honest much of the western press is.

Posted by: OsoPardo Author Profile Page at January 28, 2009 2:49 PM

I would have to disagree with MJT's assessment. Living in Israel, I find feelings about the war to be, at best, ambivalent. Gilad Shalit is still captive. Hamas is still in power. Already there have been violations of the ceasefire. The fact the IDF suffered so few casualties is welcome, but makes one wonder whether the political echelon, due to election considerations, went too far in avoiding casualties, and threw away an opportunity for a more tangible victory. If so, it backfired, because right wing candidates are gaining sharply in the polls.

These are difficult questions, but I believe that most Israelis do not see a diminution in rocket attacks during the war, and a questionable ceasefire afterwards, a sufficient result against a weak enemy, in an assault that has caused considerable damage to Israel's image abroad. Ironically, Israel's forebearance in the war, and subsequent lack of achievements, plays into the hands of its enemies, who are quick to deride Israel's attempts to defend itself, and label them as disproportionate and futile.

Posted by: MarkC Author Profile Page at January 30, 2009 12:28 AM

These internet postings are like the old Lay's potato chips commercials - no one can eat just one.

Last point. Haniyeh's foolish declaration of victory is no less embarassing than Israel's unilateral declaration that it's deterrent capability has been restored. It will be Hamas to decide whether it has been deterred. So far, the results aren't encouraging.

Posted by: MarkC Author Profile Page at January 30, 2009 12:38 AM

By the way, because of Israel's lack of achievements in the war, it has had to accept consolation prizes from the rest of the world, like promises of enforcement against arms smuggling by the U.S. and Egypt. Let's hope it's more meaningful than UN resolution 1701.

That's the end of my cluster postings. You now have a humanitarian ceasefire.

Posted by: MarkC Author Profile Page at January 30, 2009 12:51 AM

MarkC, you might be right that the IDF didn't go after Hamas hard enough. This is why IDF casualties were so low. If this is true, then the war in Gaza might be a failure.

Any word on how many Hamas fighters died, how many senior Hamas cadre died, and how many Gazan civilians died?

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 30, 2009 12:20 PM
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