January 14, 2009

Child Abuse in Gaza

This is horrendous:

Posted by Michael J. Totten at January 14, 2009 6:00 PM

Comments

"This is horrendous:"---MJT

I envy you your sense of outrage. Can't go there anymore.

It's not really 'horrendous'; It's just SOP. It's an EVIL,DEPRAVED, BANKRUPT society. Sure it's not the poor children's fault. They truly are victims, but in 15 years, they will be looking to become martyrs by killing off some JOOS. So the 'victim' stage is I fear sort of transitory. Palestinian Society is currently modeled upon the life cycle of butterflies.

But in reverse.

Butterfly Life Stages : Egg(beginning),Larva,Pupa,Adult(End).
Palestinian Life Stages: Child(End),Teen,Adult,Martyr(Beginning).

It's a vast, abysmal, culture of death. The only thing I don't understand is the complaints when Israel every so often moves in to speed up the process a little.

Posted by: dougf Author Profile Page at January 14, 2009 6:30 PM

Heartbreaking.
Thank you, Michael. We must not be silent.

To counter this horror, the Afghani heroine, seared by acid for the crime of seeking an education, has returned to school; Shamsia Husseini, age 17, and her classmates are my heroes.

You may have already followed Michael Yon's link to Dexter Filkins' NYT story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/world/asia/14kandahar.html?_r=1

"Today, nearly all of the wounded girls are back at the Mirwais School for Girls, including even Shamsia, whose face was so badly burned that she had to be sent abroad for treatment. Perhaps even more remarkable, nearly every other female student in this deeply conservative community has returned as well — about 1,300 in all."

Posted by: Paul S. Author Profile Page at January 14, 2009 6:49 PM

Undoubtedly, Glasnost will now explain to us why this really isn't horrific, or what we're looking at really isn't what we're looking at, or that everybody else does the same thing, but in a different way, and cite useful examples from the fifteenth century.

Why do people insist on creating towers of babel in order to avoid acknowledgeing the truth in front of their faces? Hamas themselves don't hide what they're about.

On the lighter side, here's a headline to warm your hearts " Pro-Gaza demonstration in Ramallah cancelled for lack of protestors".

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055557.html

Posted by: MarkC Author Profile Page at January 14, 2009 9:06 PM

Mark,

Your humor is refreshing in light of the unrelenting grimness the Middle East presents. Did you ever read Jean-Paul Sartre's play Huis Clos (No Exit)? Imagine Glasnost, trapped in endless debate with some of us in Hades for eternity; as horrific a prospect for him as for us.
:-)

Posted by: Paul S. Author Profile Page at January 14, 2009 9:40 PM

Paul S. what is happening in Palestine is tragic and sad. No butts. Jokes said at this time might offend distraught Palestinians. We should remember their suffering and hope (and pray if you are religious) for their well being. Ditto for many of the other tragedies around the world.

It is important to try to understand the world through the eyes of others, including through the eyes of our enemies and the malevolent. Unfortunately, I cannot understand Hamas' world view. Why are they raising this boy in the way described? What is their justification (inappropriate though that justification may be)?

Part of why I see redeeming possibilities with Hamas comes from the fact that:
- OBL and Zawahiri have repeatedly and viciously attacked Hamas
- Hamas has fought battles with AQ linked networks
- Hamas has publicly rebuked AQ linked networks and Takfiri (with the notable exception of Zarkawi which Hamas backed) This is in sharp contrast to the 15 Takfiri Jihadi groups that declared OBL to be their emir in 1998 (5 were Pakistani)
- Hamas has denounced the doctrine in of Takfiri in public and reached out to Hezbollah and Iran
- Hamas has shown a degree of pragmatism and adaptability that to other significant Sunni Jihadi group has demonstrated to my knowledge.

I would partly discount Hamas' previous public statements about destroying Israel because creative authentic orthodox Koranic and Hadith scholars (lawyers) can write legal justifications for just about anything and make almost anything kosher (consistent with Sharia.) Surely a long term 'temporary hudna' with Israel can be packaged in a way that Hamas can justify if Hamas ever "WANTED" to strike a peace deal with Israel. The real question is if Hamas' leadership can be persuaded to accept a deal with Israel (that among other things changes the way Palestinian children are raised.) I still don't know the answer to this.

Everyone, where else in the world have you seen indoctrination of children like this? {I know of several examples, but I would be interested in hearing the examples of others.}

Posted by: anand Author Profile Page at January 14, 2009 11:00 PM

"Hamas' leadership...persuaded"

Come on, anand; this isn't a god damn dinner invitation. When they stop trying to kill jews this ends. These animals need to die. Arabs need to disown them; no one can do that for them.

Posted by: Paul S. Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 12:04 AM

This probably explains why the palestinian people don't actively protest the actions of hamas. Hamas has already entered into the psyche of the civilian population and brainwashing them to want to die. This is the culture they are living in. The virtue of dying is as deeply valued and beloved as living is to any person influenced by the culture of the west. A nation who lives to die will not be able to sit down and negotiate. Maybe superficially. However, they don't want peace simply because that means they will actually have to find a reason to live other than death. I wonder what will happen if they do succeed in their mission to wipe israel off the face of the earth and then conquer the world. Then what? What will they do next? Blow each other up in the name of "allahu akbar"?

Posted by: michelle Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 12:45 AM

Everyone, where else in the world have you seen indoctrination of children like this? {I know of several examples, but I would be interested in hearing the examples of others.}

The issue is not just indoctrination, it's the use of children as human shields. In the film, the Hamas 'fighter' grabs a child by his backpack and drags him into the field of battle to use him as a human shield.

The only group I can think of that displays an equivalently monstrous disregard for the lives of the children they are supposedly responsible for protecting are the practitioners of African 'Muti', who hack body parts off of living children to use for magic or medicinal purposes. They then cannibalize and/or sell the parts.

Like cannibalism, the use of children as human shields is an abhorrent act whose nihilistic, self-destructive use will destroy a society. Tens of thousands of years of human history have taught us that.

Legitimizing Hamas members or Muti practitioners would spread the influence of these practices, and it's one of many reasons not to empower these groups.

Posted by: maryatexitzero Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 7:19 AM

Let us pray for the safety of Palestinian civilians who held hostages by Hamas and the safety of Israeli soldiers. May this campaign end swiftly and may Hamas be annihilated. May moderate Muslims emerge victorious in the struggle for Gaza!

http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-invades-gaza-in-attempt-to.html

Posted by: Muslims Against Sharia Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 9:47 AM

I can't see the image on my pc - Can someone describe the photo? (graphic details not necessary.) Thanks.

Posted by: Alan Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 12:01 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8&eurl=http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/01/child-abuse-in.php

Here is the link to the video on You Tube. Hope it helps. Nothing bloody or graphically violent, just very disturbing and sad. The new HJ. Hamas Juden?

Posted by: Lindsey Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 12:37 PM

Lindsey,

Took me right back to Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph Of The Will." Those smiling Hitler Youth...knowing the future the Fuehrer had planned for them.

Recommended viewing. The Synapse films version I bought donates a portion of their profits to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

Posted by: Paul S. Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 12:59 PM

There's no point in asking Ban Ki Moon to do anything. Of course, he might score points with some of his South Korean compatriots who believe US and Israel suckle at satan's teat.

Someone tell the guy Syria is helping North Korea build nuclear facility.

Posted by: lee Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 3:00 PM

We should remember their suffering and hope (and pray if you are religious) for their well being.

You're right, we should, but to be honest, I just don't care about the Palestinians any more.

Why should I care about people who have created a culture of death? Why should I care about people who, through active or passive means, have allowed Hamas to turn their children into brainwashed, hate-filled martyrs?

Why should I care about the well being of people whose only goal in life seems to be the elimination of the Jews and the destruction of Israel?

I'm tired of caring about them because they don't seem to care about themselves.

When they choose life over death, peace over war, and education over indoctrination, then give me a call and I'll start caring again, but until then, not so much.

In the meantime, may God bless Israel, the Israeli people, and the men and women of the IDF.

Posted by: Dogwood Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 6:01 PM

Horrendous. And it's been going on for long time now.

Posted by: Michael_B Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 6:57 PM

YEs Dogwood, your right. Lets stop caring about the hundreds of children who are dying for no fault of their own. Lets stop caring about the poor UN workers who have risked their life because they ebelive and were killed last evening when ISrael targeted an UN building. While we're at it lets also stop caring, thinking, writing, about the millions of refugees all over the MIddle East. And since educated people like us, who have a voice, are going to stop caring simply because we're fed up, why not extend that courtesy to the starving in Africa and millions dying of AIDS, the fact that Somalia is heading the way of a rogue state; lets also not cheer on the brave Muslim girls who go to school despite having acid thrown in their face; i could go on but i've simply stopped caring!

Posted by: ambika Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 9:30 PM

Anand, your examples prove nothing except that Hamas engages in doctrinal infighting with other Islamic extremists. Their charter still calls explicitly for the extermination of Jews - not Israelis, not Zionists, but Jews - and they have never, not once, ever relented from this position. You are simply deluding yourself because you wish it were so (that there are "redeeming possibilities" in Hamas - never have been and never will be).

Posted by: Gary Rosen Author Profile Page at January 15, 2009 11:06 PM

Well, ambika, just as a thought experiment, realize that your "caring, thinking, writing" is actually counterproductive. If you didn't it might actually help.

Why? Because:

a) There is no "doing" along with the "caring, thinking, writing,"

b) The "caring, thinking, writing" actually reinforces and enables he bad behavior. How is this possible? Just like a child throwing a tantrum. Holding its breath until it turns blue. Skinning its knee and wondering how to act.

When the parent gets hyper, the bad behavior is encouraged. Or, in the case of the skinned knee, you can either panic, and panic the child, or be calm and unworried, transmitting reassurance.

So: Let the Pals do their thing. Then let the IDF do theirs. Target at will. Bomb parades, funerals, any chance to hit a target. I don't say deliberately target civilians, but have no pressure to avoid them, no hassle over misses or bad calls. Let everything be blamed on the Pals.

What happens?

a) Pal forces receive max damage with no collateral concerns; ability to fight is destroyed faster.

b) Pal civilians attrit faster; decision makers have to count this cost; morale perhaps sapped; long term weakening of Pal base.

c) Most important: What would the
Pals do if their tricks didn't work? No protection, Sitting ducks. Civvies dying uselessly. Civs perhaps reluctant to die uselessly. Reluctant to be human shields when they know it won't do any good. World opinion turning against Pals and their puppetmasters. Perhaps Pal populace bitter at leadership's bad plan. More resistance to HAMAS, cooperation with IDF to save necks.

Right now the Pals are purely incentivized to sustain casualties. Turn that around. If their 'sacrifices' are entirely in vain, how long will they persist in them?

People like you, with all the noblest intentions in the world, are rewarding bad behavior, and thus will get more of it. If you want to help, stop it! The only justification for your 'caring,' as it is expressed, is to contribute to the destruction of Israel. Because that is what it objectively does.

Or, if you like, start "caring, thinking, writing" in a way that will actually help rather than harm. Don't pressure Israel. Pressure Israel's foes. Don't make Israel take in these refugees, make the places where they ended up assimilate them. Plenty of room in the Arab states; in Egypt; in KSA's "Empty Quarter." Why cram them into the hellhole of Gaza?

The only way for this to end is for one side to LOSE. For its will to be broken. For them to change what they want.

The charming thing for the Arabs is, they can AFFORD to lose. Israel can't. See, the Arabs want to kill, and the Jews want to live.

The Arabs would BENEFIT from change. What have they got worth preserving? Memories, if that. Were they once great? Time to be great again, but the old cookbook (the Koran) ain't working any more than the folk medicine of the Talmud is responsible for the, what, 160 Nobel Prizes earned by Jews.

Talmud, Torah, Zohar provide background, inspiration, foundation for the achievements of Jews; but curing the sick with incantations and eye-of-newt-style potions is OUT. I don't think even the Lubavitchers or the Neturei Karta {pfui] try to cure cataracts or toothache according to Gittin 69 anymore.

I'm sure the Koran is very nice in parts (or at least I will try to say so with a straight face), but it is no longer a suitable design for living. They need to adapt to modernity.

Or we can lock them up in reservations with high walls and nothing inside that anybody else wants.

Or, of course, we can kill them all.

Their choice.

Posted by: Nichevo Author Profile Page at January 16, 2009 3:09 AM

Yes, agreed. This madness has to stop. So does this: Israeli Children signing missiles.
The question is HOW to stop this madness, not that it is, in fact, madness. Both sides (Israelis and Hamas) are busy perpetuating the madness. Something needs to be done.

Posted by: Persephone Author Profile Page at January 16, 2009 6:14 AM

lets also not cheer on the brave Muslim girls who go to school despite having acid thrown in their face

If Palestinians showed half as much courage by standing up to Hamas and rejecting the culture of death as those girls demonstrate by going back to school, then I could bring myself to care again.

But you see, I care about those school girls because they are proactively trying to make their lives better. They fight against radicalism by returning to school, a decision I'm assuming their parents fully support and encourage.

What, exactly, are the Palestinians doing to reject radicalism? What are they doing to proactively reject the hate and radicalism of Hamas? What are the Palestinians doing to prevent Hamas from turning schools into indoctrination centers and martyr factories?

The Afgan girls are doing something positive to improve their lives, while the Palestinians are pursuing negative and self-destructive behavior.

It is unfortunate that Palestinian children are dying in this conflict, but the parents have brought this on themselves through either active or passive support of Hamas' tactics and behavior.

Perhaps someday the Palestinians will decide the price of war is too high and they will adopt a more moderate approach to solving their problems, but until that happens, I'm not going to expend any emotional energy worrying about them.

Posted by: Dogwood Author Profile Page at January 16, 2009 6:59 AM

Yes, agreed. This madness has to stop. So does this: Israeli Children signing missiles...Both sides (Israelis and Hamas) are busy perpetuating the madness.

The "children signing missiles" incident happened in 2006, and it was an isolated incident. Using this in an attempt to make Israel equivalent to Hamas is like claiming that Jeffrey Dahmer makes us all equivalent to muti practitioners.

Hamas and other terrorist groups have been using children as human shields for years. It's an essential part their strategy. Telling children that their lives have no value greater than martyrdom is the foundation of their organization. This concept is abhorrent in most human society, for good reason.

Hamas and comparable governments are not really comparable to legitimate nation-states. If we legitimize this form of government by trying to make it seem equivalent to legitimate nations, we empower it, and we expand its influence.

Posted by: maryatexitzero Author Profile Page at January 16, 2009 10:02 AM

Ambika;

This may sound harsh, but yes, maybe it’s better to stop caring. Africa has received the equivalent of several Marshall Plans with little improvement to show for it. Likewise, the Palestinians have squandered/stolen/lost billions of aid money, in addition to preferring the most self destructive course of action. AIDS is mostly spread by promiscuity, the norm in many African countries. Somalia’s children are crying because their parents would rather do war than commerce.

The point is that most of the world’s suffering is self-inflicted. Your caring or your money won’t help. People hurt because they make bad choices. Instead, you should hope they’ll learn from their pain and make better ones.

Posted by: Boojum Author Profile Page at January 16, 2009 11:00 AM

Persephone,

"Yes, agreed. This madness has to stop. So does this: Israeli Children signing missiles."

What is wrong with signing missiles? It is very healthy thing to do, actually.

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 16, 2009 1:16 PM

As Dogwood said, "proactively trying to make their lives better." An age old debate: we need to help them vs. they need to demonstrate they're helping themselves first so I can justify what I'll be reinforcing.

Probably little chance of it, but I wish Gazans (and Iranians) could gain inspiration from those heroes in Afghanistan, in the face of terrifying potential consequences for the kids, their parents and the teachers, given the number of schools blown up last year.

It takes courage resistance movements throughout history have summoned in the face of the alternative.

Heart of the matter?
"Dissecting the Iran-Hamas Terror Connection; The head of the snake of terrorism is in Iran and no peace is possible until that head is cut off." by 'Reza Kahlili':

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dissecting-the-iran-hamas-terror-connection/

Posted by: Paul S. Author Profile Page at January 16, 2009 2:26 PM

Long War Journal's report today that "The Swat Taliban forced the closure of all of the district's girls schools, and bombed one school in the district." appears at geo.tv, along side
"Israeli Aggression in Gaza"
"Arab leaders accuse Israel of 'crimes of war and genocide'"
and "Israel's Gaza onslaught threatens security: Sarkozy."

And Hamas?: "Hamas returns to Cairo for fresh truce talks."

Maybe you've seen the IDF video of the AA gun found in a Mosque.

Posted by: Paul S. Author Profile Page at January 17, 2009 2:15 PM

Nichevo,

and this goes for every one else as well who on this space have consistenly blamed the palestinians for everything and go on and on about how they should all just die.

Dont ever, ever in your life assume that someone isnt 'doing' something, just because they might have noble intentions. At the very basis I am not a jew or a muslim or even from the middle east so really it would be easy for me not to give a shit about your people or their people dying on a daily basis. And dont ever presume that me or others like me, and our caring and thinking is counter productive. It is people like you who refuse to look at both sides of the argument that perpetuate such nonsence. Wiht your grand statements of 'lets kill em all'. I am guessing your not an Arab or muslim, from your name and from what you say, so fine your entitled to your view point and your opinion, but then dont go around bleating that thats the right one because its yours. you would make a far more powerful statement and a larger impact if you actually decided to open your mind a little and and consider both sides of what is actually going on.
everyone is LOOSIng in this war that has been going on for over 60 years, no one not Israel and not the Palestinians can afford this much loss, not the Arabs, not the International community. Collectively we've all lost wayy too much. When does it end?
You said it'll end when one side looses and clearly in your mind the Pals should loose. But there are no winners, till everyone feels that their life has gained something and it has meaning.
Yes I might have noble intentions you scoff at, but let me tell you there are very few people like me in this world who do far more about a whole section of society we have absolutely no connection to other than the fact that we have a connection to humanity and the need to ensure that our children experience a better world than what we have today.
When you see people being killed in front of you, childen screaming, fire, the smell of burning flesh and rubber as I have then you realize that there are no winners and you do what you can to make sure that one day itll stop. Its easy to voice an opinion and say lets kill a whole people, but its far harder to actually try and make a difference. To stand in the middle and tell both sides that its time to stop. Someone else said, people make bad choices. YEs when faced with little or no option we all make bad choices..but its seems that as a globe we have learnt little or nothing from our past mistakes. collectively as a human race we seem to have taken nothing from history in the last hundred years, so yes people make bad choices, but it seems that people dont learn.

Dont ever assume that someone isnt doing something to make a difference.

Posted by: ambika Author Profile Page at January 19, 2009 9:47 PM

everyone is LOOSIng in this war that has been going on for over 60 years, no one not Israel and not the Palestinians can afford this much loss, not the Arabs, not the International community. Collectively we've all lost wayy too much. When does it end?

Sorry Ambika, there's been far fewer lives lost in Gaza than in Darfur, or Congo, or Sri Lanka.

Probably the 2008 death toll of the highways of LA is higher than the number non-terrorists killed in Gaza by Israel over the last 12 months.

Both Israel and the Palestinians can easly maintain this loss rate, and factions in both groups use the continuing rocket aggression / defensive killing to further their own self-justification narrative.

When does it end? Maybe after Tel Aviv gets nuked?
Maybe after most of the Jews evacuate (to America?); or most of the Palestinians?

Maybe after Israel does a BETTER job of occupation and Palestinian institution building?

Since the '67 & then '73 wars, Israel has occupied more land than the armistice borders (mostly not recognized by Arabs), so despite the fact that they are democratic, and superior in culture and civilization to the Palestinians -- they are 'not innocent'. Both sides have committed different injustices.

There is no 'Just Peace'.

When the war ends, it will end with an Unjust Peace. The goal of those wanting peace should be pushing to accept that Unjust Peace is preferable to fighting/ killing/ and dying, for an unlikely to attain Just Peace.

I support Israel. But back to a pre '67 size, in square kilometers, seems to be a minor injustice the Israelis should be expecting to live with. No "right of return" for the decendants of those Arabs who chose to flee, rather than remain, seems less than injustice, but the UN and the Palestinians keep bringing it up.

Hamas must be willing to sign, and live up, a Peace Agreement -- or some other Palestinian representatives. Perhaps new elections are needed?

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 3:57 AM

Oh, the "Little Star" singing was quite annoying.

Funny I was more annoyed at it than horrified at what the UN (with US cash) is funding.

The US should be insisting on English Language classes, as well as respect for Human Rights by any organization receiving UN Cash.

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 4:00 AM

The "children signing missiles" incident happened in 2006, and it was an isolated incident.

Actually, we could compile a whole video of Jewish settler children holding machine guns, being taught by their parents to shoot, stoning Palestinian schoolgirls, playing games in which one of them holds a toy machine gun and the other is dressed up as a Palestinian and holds his hands up in fake terror, etc.

In fact, it has already been done! See it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7F0WY4AhYM&feature=related

Hamas and other terrorist groups have been using children as human shields for years.

So has Israel. There are videos of IDF soldiers kidnapping young Arabs and using them as human shields at checkpoints. The IDF has confessed to making neighbors march ahead of soldiers in house-to-house searches (the "neighbor procedure") thousands of times. Etc. etc.

The Afgan girls are doing something positive to improve their lives, while the Palestinians are pursuing negative and self-destructive behavior.

You write from a Western home, you know nothing about Palestinians.

Probably little chance of it, but I wish Gazans (and Iranians) could gain inspiration from those heroes in Afghanistan, in the face of terrifying potential consequences for the kids, their parents and the teachers, given the number of schools blown up last year.

Did you know the only music school in Gaza was established under Hamas? Half of the students were boys and the other half girls. Unfortunately the school was destroyed by Israel.

At the Islamic University in Gaza, 60% of the students are women. It was also destroyed by Israel.

As you can see, Gazans had universal education for women well before Afghanistan began to implement it. In fact Gaza may have been the inspiration for the Afghani women, rather than the other way round.

It's an EVIL,DEPRAVED, BANKRUPT society.

What society are you talking about? One in which masked young men disturgingly reminiscent of the KKK brutally club elderly Palestinians? One in which young boys are sent by their parents to stone Palestinian houses? One in which a soldier is told to shoot a blindfolded and handcuffed Palestinian prisoner in the foot -- and he heeds the order? One in which rifle-wielding men attempt to burn down a house with Palestinians inside? One in which a young man kiccks a bound Palestinian's head with the soldiers looking on? One in which a young girl tries to violently remove a Palestinian woman's headscarf from her head to humiliate her?

And all of that done by people who lead the most comfortable of lives, with state subsidized housing and services, and never in their lives having spent a single day without running water.

Yes, that society is evil, depraved and bankrupt.

Posted by: The Hasbara Buster Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 9:53 AM

Ambika, I'm sure you feel good about yourself for writing that, but what you actually said is nothing. "Make a difference?" What difference? I make a difference every time I scratch my ass. Before I scratch, my ass itches; after I scratch, the itch is gone. Vive la difference!

Your thinking is vapid and empty of meaning, as are your actions. I repeat that you are not helping. I have not "presumed" it, I have explained to you why you are not helping. You just don't want to hear it because it is anathema to you to think that you are not the star of the movie. You just want to go on and on and on cramming everybody's ears full of the sound of what a wonderful person you are.

The following:

Yes I might have noble intentions you scoff at, but let me tell you there are very few people like me in this world who do far more about a whole section of society we have absolutely no connection to other than the fact that we have a connection to humanity and the need to ensure that our children experience a better world than what we have today.

is meaningless, literally it is gibberish. Can you restate this in proper English?

As for:
When you see people being killed in front of you, childen screaming, fire, the smell of burning flesh and rubber as I have then you realize that there are no winners and you do what you can to make sure that one day itll stop.

Bitch, I saw the second plane hit the tower on 9/11. Don't tell me about seeing and hearing and smelling death and destruction. On that day, let me tell you what I realized. Two things, actually:

I realized that we were at war and that one side was going to win and that it had better be us and that I didn't care what happened to the losers, except that I hoped it was bad.

I realized that the status quo could no longer endure and that we were going to have to change the way we dealt with the world. 9/11 happened because everybody felt it was easier to keep the Middle East bottled up than to fix it. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and whatever hell originated Osama, Mohammed Atta, and all these other savages, had to be dealt with.

Were we wrong? Should we change? Sure. We've been putting up with their dysfunction for all this time, allowing them to have these crap governments and these crap beliefs and these crap lifestyles. We humored them, we indulged them. Time for that to stop.

Tom Grey: While IMHO the Pals should move to Jordan or whatever Arab country they came from, the Israelis went the extra mile just as you suggest. The Wye Accords were to give 'em just exactly what you said. The Pals spat on it. I won't even get into the injustice of giving them one square millimeter of Jerusalem, nor of the security problems.

There is no pleasing these people. ISTM there is no choice but to dominate them so severely that they don't even want anything but what we want them to want. "Hamas must be willing to" OBEY. They are non compos mentis. They can't make their own decisions. Well, of course they can, but at present that will lead to their annihilation. Which is no more than they deserve, but we haven't got the stomach for that sort of thing anymore, and fine, I guess we're the better for it.

So they have to be FIXED. They are BROKEN. Talk of whatever concessions is pointless. Nothing will satisfy them. Even getting their maximum war aims won't satisfy them.

Who here thinks that without Israel, everybody in the Middle East would be even remotely happy? It'd just be some other crap.

Posted by: Nichevo Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 11:05 AM

Nichevo,

Preachin' to the deaf, man; why I gave up posting.

As of Noon, 20 Jan. it's "let's talk, and get to know the gentler side of hate." Cinch that seatbelt tight; heavy turbulence ahead.

Posted by: Paul S. Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 2:54 PM

The Hasbara buster,

Actually, we could compile a whole video of Jewish settler children holding machine guns, being taught by their parents to shoot, stoning Palestinian schoolgirls, playing games in which one of them holds a toy machine gun and the other is dressed up as a Palestinian and holds his hands up in fake terror, etc.

In fact, it has already been done! See it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7F0WY4AhYM&feature=related

I stopped watching you movie after 1st minute.
Do you know why?
Because after what you said and I quoted above you had shown children in military museum playing with weapons on display.

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 5:14 PM

Nichego: I realized that we were at war and that one side was going to win and that it had better be us and that I didn't care what happened to the losers, except that I hoped it was bad.

Exactly.

ambika,

I do not know from what experience you speak but just let me help you get the feel of it:

In case you havent realized yet, we are in the millions that hate your type. Why on earth would I be one single person when 40 times the population of Israel feels exactly how I do? Does that really make sense to you? At least 50 million people wont hesitate to eat you, yet you feel they wont be able to come here and tell you stop the bloody murder you racist fuck!!!?

you got it all wrong, the pro Israeli Arabs will cut the throats of unborn Israelis in their mothers wombs and the rest will God willing kill the KG pupils who will undoubtedly grow up to be IDF reservist’s. The neutral Arabs will poison your water and starve you beyond concentration camp recognition. The fundamentals will…well lets just say….even I am scared to think of what they will do to you murdering bastards as a fitting punishment!

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 5:32 PM

I stopped watching you movie after 1st minute.
Do you know why?
Because after what you said and I quoted above you had shown children in military museum playing with weapons on display.

Too bad you're not patient.

1:32 is not a museum, 1:45 is not a museum, 1:57 is not a museum, 2:42 is not a museum, 2:53 is not a museum, 3:00 is not a museum...

One more:

A young Jewish settler, dressed up as Baruch Goldstein (complete with the Magen David Adom shirt), re-enacts the doctor's 1994 massacre of Arabs during a Purim party in Hebron:

http://www.ahikamseri.com/slide_show.asp?catId=30&id=33

Please, God! What kind of depraved society is this that teaches its kids to celebrate a mass murderer? And they enjoy FULL support from the State of Israel.

All Israelis, unless they refuse to pay the taxes that will support these monsters, are complicit with the evil settlers. There's no excuse. Until the people react, Israel is a bankrupt society.

Posted by: The Hasbara Buster Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 5:53 PM

The Hasbara buster,

What kind of depraved society is this that teaches its kids to celebrate a mass murderer?

Mm-m-m... Palestinians?

And they enjoy FULL support from the State of Israel.

You are confused again.

Firstly, State of Israel does not support mass murderers be it Israeli or Palestinian variety.

Secondly, there are great many pieces of evidence that Arab/Muslim/Palestinian mass media actually teaches to hate Jews. Arabs get educated from very young age, btw.

PS. Do you happened to know how many Goldshtein-like incidents there are?

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 8:29 PM

All Israelis, unless they refuse to pay the taxes that will support these monsters, are complicit with the evil settlers. There's no excuse. Until the people react, Israel is a bankrupt society

So, "Hasbara buster", you're a fan of collective punishment, the standard war crime of authoritarians, demagogues, Islamists and Chomskyites.

Terrorist militias, their Islamist sponsors and anti-democracy supporters like Noam Chomsky like to use this argument. They believe that terrorist attacks against civilians in democracies are justified because people voted for (or otherwise support) leaders that terror-supporters/democracy-haters don’t like.

You're even worse than the rest of them. You think Israelis should be held responsible for the crimes of random settlers. Should all Americans be thrown in jail for the crimes committed by David Duke and his minions? We pay the taxes that support 'these monsters'

So, what kind of democracy-hater are you? Islamist, marxist, Chosmky-bot, KKK fan? Whatever, Sieg heil. (Don't bother to try to hide it, I saw that hand go up)

Posted by: maryatexitzero Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 8:33 PM

Nichevo,

clearly i've hit a nerve if you have to swear on a public forum.

and i saw those planes hit the towers, i saw them fall as well, and i also knew people inside those towers. obviously we have walked away from that incident with very different ideals and thats that.

Posted by: ambika Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 8:54 PM

ambika,

obviously we have walked away from that incident with very different ideals and thats that.

And your ideals are preferable because ... ?

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 20, 2009 9:26 PM

leo,

i dont think my statement in anyway says my ideals or even the other persons are preferable!

Posted by: ambika Author Profile Page at January 21, 2009 12:31 AM

ambika,

I just re-read your post at "January 19, 2009 9:47 PM" and realized that you do not say much except that talking is better than killing.

That, I agree. And my apologies for making baseless assumptions.

One more thing. Since you do not believe your ideals are preferable would you consider the possibility that war is one of the ways to achieve peace? Especially when all other options were exosted and multiple times at that?

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 21, 2009 5:28 AM

i dont think my statement in anyway says my ideals or even the other persons are preferable!

ambika, I'm sure you're right. As usual, your statements say nothing.

I see I got the sex right.

Posted by: Nichevo Author Profile Page at January 21, 2009 5:41 AM

Buster,

You're right. There's some terrible stuff going on over there:


http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/21/the-grand-inquisitors/#more-1938

Up to a hundred Palestinians in Gaza who have defied house arrest orders have been tortured in children’s hospitals and schools converted into interrogation centers. People have been shot in the legs or had their hands broken. The campaign has been described as a “new massacre”. One victim had his eyes put out. No one was safe from the torturers, not even those attending funerals. When is will the UN act to put a stop to this horror? Won’t President Obama intervene to stop these barbaric acts? Aren’t international human rights monitors going to put a stop to this? When will War Crimes charges be preferred against the perpetrators?

Terrible, terrible.

Posted by: Nichevo Author Profile Page at January 21, 2009 5:52 AM

Oh wait:

Never.

Why? Because Hama is in charge of the torture and their victims are simply Fatah members. If it were Israel who had done these things, well then … But since it’s Hamas, the same Hamas for whom thousands have been marching in ’solidarity’, it’s a non-story. The Jersualem Post cites reports from Fatah members describing the events.

The eyewitnesses said that a children’s hospital and a mental health center in Gaza City, as well as a number of school buildings in Khan Yunis and Rafah, were among the places that Hamas had turned into “torture centers.”

A Fatah activist in Gaza City claimed that as many as 80 members of his faction were either shot in the legs or had their hands broken for allegedly defying Hamas’s house-arrest orders.”What’s happening in the Gaza Strip is a new massacre that is being carried out by Hamas against Fatah,” he said. “Where were these [Hamas] cowards when the Israeli army was here?”

Why, waiting for the ceasefire, of course. That turns out to have its own costs, even though they are not widely recognized. But when the cost-benefit of leaving Hamas in posession of Gaza was calculated, was the price of reprisal included in the bill? Did anyone take into account how many people, who might otherwise have been open to negotiating peace, have now decided it will never be worth the risk. In other words, is it possible that ceasefires which leave the aggressor in possession of the field may have the effect of undermining genuine peace rather than promoting it?

Posted by: Nichevo Author Profile Page at January 21, 2009 5:54 AM

But that's OK, because...

Why is that OK again?

Posted by: Nichevo Author Profile Page at January 21, 2009 5:55 AM

buster? ambika?

anyone? bueller?

crickets?

Posted by: Nichevo Author Profile Page at January 21, 2009 6:24 PM

Leo,

It's cool, and your right I dont really say much in that post except rant and vent my frustrations, because its frustrating when people are so unwilling to look at both sides of an argument and make an informed decision. I appreciate and will always understand that when you see something like the towers fall (or people being burnt alive in communal riots) its makes one angry and clouds your judgement but i still dont see that as justificationg for calling for the death of an entire people.

as for your question, its a tricky one and in some cases i might have to say yes perhaps it is one way, but then i have to ask when do we agree that war has been exhausted as an option?

In this specific case of the middle east, i dont think we've exhausted all options, and this war thats going on its not a balanced one in the least. Lets just say, ok use war as an option but then let both parties fight a balanced war as we did back in the day till one side wins. take both armies, arm them with the same equipment and fight. leave the civilians and the children out of it. but since this is not 1452 and thats never going to happen (and god forbid certain organizations are armed with more sophisticated weapons) why dont we try other options. there is such a lack of communication and with all parties refusing to talk to one another so much is getting lost in translation.

so i dont know leo, its a tricky question, perhaps other people have something to say as well?

Posted by: ambika Author Profile Page at January 21, 2009 10:38 PM

"but then let both parties fight a balanced war as we did back in the day till one side wins. take both armies, arm them with the same equipment and fight"

We should have done that in WWII, given nuclear weapons to the Germans and Japanese. It would have been a lot fairer.

Posted by: Gary Rosen Author Profile Page at January 22, 2009 12:58 AM

ambika,

I apologize for my late reply.

In this specific case of the middle east, i dont think we've exhausted all options, and this war thats going on its not a balanced one in the least.

You probably already understand that I think differently, however I am willing to listen. What peaceful option wasn't tried before the war begun?

Lets just say, ok use war as an option but then let both parties fight a balanced war as we did back in the day till one side wins. take both armies, arm them with the same equipment and fight. leave the civilians and the children out of it

First, arming is each side's problem.

Second, well armed Israel (no thanks to Hamas) did not start the war. She merely replied to aggression.

Third, there is no such thing as balanced war, not even internationally recognized term that exists. And, of cause, wars are not fought to be lost.

Fourth, Hamas is hiding and fighting among civilians while forcing IDF to do the same. PR is the only way for Hamas to survive so the more Palestinians are dead the better it is for Hamas.

Fifth, do you really think its a game?

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 23, 2009 8:44 AM

Hasbara Buster:

I hope you keep citing things like that video. I can't think of a more effective way to expose your dishonesty and destroy your credibility than to claim that that video proves Israel is doing the same thing to its children that Hamas is doing to the children of Gaza.

Posted by: AisA Author Profile Page at January 23, 2009 12:55 PM

Up to a hundred Palestinians in Gaza who have defied house arrest orders have been tortured in children’s hospitals and schools converted into interrogation centers.

But these are accounts by Fatah members, i.e. Muslim Palestinians. How do you know it's not taqqiya?

I hope you keep citing things like that video. I can't think of a more effective way to expose your dishonesty and destroy your credibility than to claim that that video proves Israel is doing the same thing to its children that Hamas is doing to the children of Gaza.

Jewish children sent by their parents to attack an Arab home with stones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhlw7WK8gzo&feature=related

What, what kind of parent can teach such hatred to their kids, for God's sake? This is a unique case in democratic nations. Basques may hate Spaniards, but you don't see Basque kids stoning Spaniards.

PR is the only way for Hamas to survive so the more Palestinians are dead the better it is for Hamas.

I have a problem regarding this theory.

Israel has used Palestinian human shields thousands of times. They kidnap a young Palestinian and order him to march ahead of the soldiers in house-to-house searches, so that the terrorists hiding inside won't shoot. It's the "neighbor procedure" (Google it).

If Hamas wants more and more Palestinians dead... why don't they shoot when the Israelis break into their hideouts with the kidnapped neighbor??? It would be a 14-point play for them: they would increase the civilian toll, thus enabling them to play the role of victims, and they would have the chance of wounding or killing an Israeli soldier.

If Palestinians wanted more of their own civilians dead, the neighbor procedure wouldn't stop them from firing. Yet it does stop them.

Hasbara busted.

Posted by: The Hasbara Buster Author Profile Page at January 23, 2009 1:38 PM

Jewish kids stoning Palestinian schoolgirls:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGYT0O5INq4&feature=related

Let me ask, aren't these Jewish children abused by their parents?

Posted by: The Hasbara Buster Author Profile Page at January 23, 2009 1:46 PM

A Jewish boy kicks a Palestinian woman as a Jewish girl pulls her headscarf:

http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com/hebron.jpg

The indoctrination these 2 kids received -- isn't it child abuse?

Posted by: The Hasbara Buster Author Profile Page at January 23, 2009 1:48 PM

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhlw7WK8gzo&feature=related

What, what kind of parent can teach such hatred to their kids, for God's sake?"

Is there English translation?

I see adult trying to provoke children so she could take it on camera and I also see IDF soldier trying to stop it first with kids but then with adult. Not much success with either. Am I missing something here?

Israel has used Palestinian human shields thousands of times. They kidnap a young Palestinian and order him to march ahead of the soldiers in house-to-house searches, so that the terrorists hiding inside won't shoot. It's the "neighbor procedure"

So I heard. Assuming it is true, if found do these soldiers get praised or punished for such action? If it is former then I am ashamed and it must stop, if it is latter then I am glad Israel knows difference between right and wrong. Which is it?

If Hamas wants more and more Palestinians dead... why don't they shoot when the Israelis break into their hideouts with the kidnapped neighbor???

I did not say Hamasis are idiots. It is too obvious and therefore hard to sell. Plus with every dead kidnapped neighbor you would need to show that civilian was killed by IDF and one or more dead Hamasi. Plus they cannot make it to obvious for their constituency as well. May lose rest of the support they still got.

"If Palestinians wanted more of their own civilians dead, the neighbor procedure wouldn't stop them from firing. Yet it does stop them."

From what I see it stopped them in two cases, either they are dead and can no longer fire or cherish their lives more than death of Israelis and are afraid to fire.

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGYT0O5INq4&feature=related

Let me ask, aren't these Jewish children abused by their parents?"

http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com/hebron.jpg

The indoctrination these 2 kids received -- isn't it child abuse?"

If it was unprovoked both movie and picture are disgusting examples of Israeli behavior.

Posted by: leo Author Profile Page at January 23, 2009 7:35 PM

Really, Hasbara Buster, what you put forth as argument is utterly lame.

The video of the children with the rather excited lady's voice and the apparent intervention of a soldier is not in English so I can't understand it. But even if it IS an instance of Israeli children harassing a Palestinian lady, that is hardly the equivalent of the organized training of children with submachine guns and grenades -- training them to "kill Jews" and to explicitly state that such is their mission.

As for the picture, get real. We have no idea what happened before the picture was taken or what the situation may have been. Concluding anything solely from that picture is dubious at best.

I don’t see that what you’ve posted “busts” anything.

By the way, I see that the Hamas website has an online poll to the question: “How should the resistance respond?” Three options are listed: 1) Use banned weapons, 2) More martyrdom operations and 3) Fire more grad rockets.

See the poll here: Hamas

I notice that “Stop killing Jews and live in peace” was not one of the options listed.

Posted by: AisA Author Profile Page at January 24, 2009 1:06 PM
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