May 23, 2007

The Story of Gaza

By Michael J. Totten

Last year I visited Southern Israel after the Lebanon war winded down. The Israelis were then engaged in a similar fight against the rocket launchers in Gaza. The situation in the meantime has hardly changed at all. Once again – still – Israelis are under Qassam rocket fire from Gaza and are planning an IDF operation to stop to it. The crisis, if anything, is only worse now because the rockets are even more frequent. I wrote three articles about this in August last year and I realize now they could have been written today. Here they are as they originally appeared and as relevant as they were when I wrote them.

Part I: Eyeless in Gaza

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The engine of a Qassam rocket fired from Gaza into Israel by Palestinian terrorists

SOUTHERN ISRAEL, NEAR GAZA – All eyes turned from Gaza to Lebanon as Israel fought a hot war with Hezbollah across its northern border. Before the Lebanon war broke out, the fighting in and around Gaza was the big story in Israel. But once the media coverage ended it stayed ended, even after foreign correspondents were free to pick up where they left off. Perhaps the kidnapping of two Fox News journalists by the latest in a long line of Palestinian terrorist groups -- the Holy Jihad Brigades -- all but guaranteed reporters wouldn’t go back.

Even though I’ve been in Israel for a couple of weeks, I still didn’t know any more about what’s going on down there than people who have never been here before. News from Israel’s other rocket war barely trickles up to Tel Aviv. So I hopped in my rental car and drove down to Mishav Klahim, just east of Netivot and 20 kilometers from Gaza, to meet Shika Frista who promised to show me what’s going on.

I missed a turn on the coastal road when I was supposed to veer left to avoid driving straight into Gaza. Suddenly mine was the only car on the road. An aerial surveillance balloon hovered in the air up ahead. It looked just like the one I saw flying on the border with Lebanon while Hezbollah fired barrages of Katyusha rockets into Israeli cities.

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The war of the rockets was supposed to be over. But I was back in it.

The left turn I needed to take was behind me. But I kept driving, slowly, so I could see what was ahead. I rolled down the window and listened for sounds of war. All was quiet, oppressively hot, and still.

The road dead-ends at the Erez Crossing Point. No one was going in or out of Gaza that day. It looked like no one was even there working or watching, like the place had been abandoned and left to itself.

I took a quick picture…

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…then turned the car around and realized I had made a mistake. Any Israeli military personnel who watched me drive up, take a quick picture, and leave right away would have good reason to be suspicious and even arrest me. But no cars followed in the rear view mirror.

The map led me straight to Shika Frista’s house on his Moshav. We sat at little table under the shade of palm trees next to his swimming pool.

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Shika drank a glass of red wine.

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It was too hot for wine, so I asked for a beer. The air outside is drier in the south, though, not humid and heavy like it is in Tel Aviv.

“I can hear the Qassam rockets fired at us from Gaza,” he said and gestured to the farmland beyond. “They shake the windows of my house when they hit.”

Israel ended up with two rocket wars at the same time. One in the north, and one in the south. Unlike Hezbollah’s arsenal, Qassam rockets aren’t made in Iran. They’re made in Gaza itself. They’re smaller, though, than Katyushas. The south has not been evacuated like the north was, even though people still occasionally are killed by the rockets.

“How often does Hamas fire rockets?” I said.

“Hamas doesn’t shoot them,” he said. “Islamic Jihad shoots them.”

“How close to your house has a Qassam hit?” I said.

“About…four or five kilometers away,” he said.

“And you can hear them here,” I said, “even from that far away?”

“Oh,” he said. “Of course.”

We finished our drinks and drove toward Gaza in his truck.

“Ariel Sharon’s farm is near here, right?” I said.

“Yeah,” he said. “A Qassam landed twenty meters from his wife’s grave on the family property.”

We passed Sharon’s farm and in minutes reached the city of Sderot.

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“Lots of Qassams hit this city,” Shika said. “Most people killed by the Qassams live here.”

“How many rockets are hitting the city right now?” I said.

“Not as many today,” he said. “Because of the war in Lebanon.”

“What does Lebanon have to do with it?” I said.

“All the journalists forgot about us during the Lebanon war. So the terrorists are waiting for the media to come back before firing rockets again. They don’t want to waste those they have.”

“That can’t be the only reason,” I said. “The IDF has been active in Gaza this entire time. Surely that has something to do with it.”

“Yes,” he said. “Also because of the IDF.

Later two more Israelis repeated what Shika said about Hamas and Islamic Jihad cooling their rocket launchers while the media’s attention was elsewhere. I haven’t heard any official confirmation from either side that it’s true.

“How long do people here have from the time they hear an air raid siren until the rockets land?” I said.

“About 20 seconds,” he said.

We reached a small IDF base near the Israeli town of Nir Am where Shika’s friend Zvika waited for us.

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Shika’s friend Zvika

The parking lot was shielded by concrete bomb-blast walls.

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A civilian overlook tower was erected next to the military compound. It was not shielded by walls of any kind. But Gaza was still a comfortable distance away. No sniper could possibly shoot us from the other side of the vast and eerily empty no-man’s wasteland that lay between the de-facto end of Israel and the beginning of Gaza.

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An aerial surveillance balloon flew right over our heads.

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Zvika knew the area well. Shika had asked him to meet us so he could tell me what we were looking at.

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“Over there,” Zvika said, “is the town of Beit Hanun.”

Beit Hanun was far, and I had to zoom my camera lens all the way out to take a picture.

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The Gaza city of Beit Hanun from Nir Am with a zoom lens

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Here is a severely cropped piece from the photo above

“You see those towers off in the distance,” Zvika said. “With the sun shining on them? Those are apartment buildings in Gaza City that Arafat built for members of Fatah.”

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“Where are those smokestacks in the distance off to the right?” I said.

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“That’s Ashkelon,” Zvika said. “Islamic Jihad fires Qassam rockets at that city all the time.”

“Is this overlook point always open to the public?” I said. It felt strange just driving up to an IDF base, even if it was just a small one, and hanging out right next to it without having to even say hi to a soldier guarding the road.

“Very few civilians know about this place,” Zvika said. “Only the people who live nearby ever come here.”

“Is this interesting to you?” I said. “Or is it normal?”

“It is normal,” he said.

“It is interesting for me,” Shika said. “It has been three years since I saw anything like this.”

“There used to be plantations just on the other side of the fence,” Zvika said. “But the IDF uprooted them because Qassams were being launched from there. Now they have to fire Qassams from the buildings farther away.”

“If they fire a rocket you will see it,” Shika said.

“Will we see a trail of smoke?” I said.

Oh yes,” Zvika said and raised his eyebrows. “You will see the smoke.”

Just then several IDF soldiers in the base below shouted something in Hebrew and ran to one of the tanks.

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Several men jumped in, cranked up the tank’s engine, and roared with surprising speed into the field toward Gaza in front of the overlook tower.

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I braced myself for the thunderous racket of combat or a possible incoming or over flying Qassam. Nothing happened. The Gaza area was tense and sporadically violent, but the conflict was significantly dialed down compared with the just-ended open war against Hezbollah in the north.

It was time to move on. Shika and Zvika had much more to show me.

Zvika hopped in his van. Shika and I climbed into the truck and followed Zvika as he drove south down the length of the Gaza Strip.

“You see that dirt road on the other side of the trees next to this one?” Shika said.

I did, and I took a picture of it.

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“Every day a machine goes over it and smoothes it out,” he said. “Trackers, mostly Bedouin, search the dirt every day for fresh footprints. They can tell when someone has come out of Gaza and which direction he’s going. If you put one foot on that road right now you will be arrested.”

“I’m partly relieved that I can’t go into Gaza right now,” I said. I’m being prevented from going into Gaza for a variety of security, logistical, and bureaucratic reasons beyond my control. “But I also partly wish that I could.”

“The beach in Gaza is amazing,” Shika had told me earlier. “It is virgin. You wouldn’t believe it.”

“You’ve been there?” I said.

“Of course,” he said. “We used to go there and eat in the restaurants.”

“When?” I said.

“In the early 80s,” he said.

“It was friendly then?” I said.

“Yeah,” he said. “Israel ruled there. The Palestinians were friendly, I think they miss that period. They had money, they could walk freely.”

We continued following Zvika in his van to the abandoned Karni Terminal.

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“That’s Gaza, man,” Shika said. “Do you want to go inside?”

“Yes and no,” I said. “Not without the army, though. If you and I go in there right now, we’re both in trouble.”

“Me more than you,” Shika said.

We were much closer to Gaza this time than we were at the overlook tower. Buildings inside the strip loomed just over the tops of concrete bomb-blast and sniper-fire walls.

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“We are probably over some tunnels right now,” Shika said. “It is very dangerous and we have to be careful.”

The Karni Terminal was a major crossing point for people and goods into and out of Gaza before the place went completely to hell. Today it is abandoned.

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The spooky silence and emptiness only hinted at the violence and anarchy being walled off on the other side after the Israeli withdrawal.

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It wasn’t a safe place to linger. So we moved along and headed further south without getting out of our vehicles.

“The last three prime ministers want peace,” Shika said. “They go out of Lebanon, they go out of Gaza. And look what [Arab terrorists] continue to do.”

“Do you think it was right to leave Gaza?” I said.

“Yeah,” he said. “Of course.”

“Even though there are rocket attacks?” I said.

“Yeah,” he said. “This is occupied land. They always have excuses to do what they do. Do you know what’s going on in Gaza now?”

“No,” I said. “I don’t.”

“Whew,” he said. “You can’t imagine.”

“What do you know about it?” I said.

“Everybody has weapons,” he said. “The strongest is the ruler. It is not like in Ramallah.”

Smoke rose from Gaza off to the right.

“You see that fire?” Shika said. “It is from missiles. Israel is shooting at where the terrorists hide.”

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Vicious dogs chased the truck and ran right alongside it, furiously barking, snarling, and threatening to lunge at us.

The only thing less dodgy about this environment than the war zone on the northern border is that I couldn’t hear or see live explosions.

I did, however, see a tank moving fast among some trees.

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Once again I braced myself for the unspeakably loud explosions of combat. Once again, though, the IDF just seemed to be moving its forces around. There was no fighting at that particular time on that particular day.

We kept driving and passed by more tanks.

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“They are getting ready to go into Gaza,” Shika said.

Some of the tanks looked idle, though. Notice in the photo below that a cover of some sort has been placed over the barrel.

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“Roll down the window,” I said. “I want to talk to these guys.”

Shika rolled down the window and shouted at an IDF officer. The officer shouted back.

“I told him you are a journalist,” Shika said. “And he said It’s about time you got down here.”

“Ask him if I can interview some of the soldiers,” I said.

Shika asked my question in Hebrew.

“No,” the officer said.

“Can I take pictures?” I said and held up my camera.

“No,” the officer said. Then why did he say It’s about time you got down here? He didn’t send us away, but he didn’t exactly roll out the welcome wagon.

It was okay, though. Noah Pollak and I were already wrapping up the week-long process of securing interviews with IDF soldiers and military intelligence officers out of Gaza. We had plans to get that side of the story soon enough from people who know who we are and are willing to talk.

You can drive from Tel Aviv to Gaza in an hour. How strange, then, that there’s a little war down there that no one else in Israel – not even the foreign correspondents – have any interest in or are really even aware of. I felt like I had slid off the edge of the country and through a hole in the dimension into a violent alternate reality. It’s as if the Gaza war does not exist in Israel now even though it’s right down the road.

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If a terrorist army fired rockets into Jersey City and the US military deployed tanks and heavy artillery against them, those who live in New York would take a keen interest in the goings-on. So would, I suspect, the people of Britain, France, Israel (!), and Cairo.

People get used to war, though. So do countries. Arabs are firing rockets at Jews? Israelis are sending tanks after their hides? Yeah, well, what else is new. Right?

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It’s tourist season now, just one hour north. And the beach is calling.

Part II: Israel’s Other Rocket War

SOUTHERN ISRAEL, NEAR GAZA – Israel’s other war-without-a-name in the summer of 2006 is eerily similar to the one in the north, the one that got all the attention, against Iran’s proxy militia Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon.

Palestinian terrorists kidnapped the young Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit just across the border from Gaza and ramped up their Qassam rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel.

Shika Frista and his friend Zvika took me to Kibbutz Alumim, where Zvika lives with his family, and showed me some of the rockets that landed in and around the community recently.

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Several Qassam rockets had been placed beneath a palm tree.

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Oddly, the Gaza rocket factory took the trouble to brand their weapons in English.

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Elsewhere exploded Qassam rockets and parts were used as garden art.

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There is something slightly creepy about using Qassam rockets as garden art. But Qassams are a part of life in Southern Israel. And there’s something slightly defiant as well as creepy about integrating them into the landscape.

Turning a murderous instrument with your name on it into a community showpiece is a way of taking ownership of it, laughing at it even. Your rockets don’t scare us. They’re just garden art now. We’re still here. And you keep missing the target.

Zvika did seem to think the rocket parts were a little bit funny. He held them up for my camera with the same good cheer as a fisherman who just caught a seven pound bass.

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I, too, picked up some of the rockets, thinking while doing so that thugs from Hamas or Islamic Jihad had handled them before I did, hoping against the odds that they could use them to kill a few Jews.

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Unlike Northern Israel during the Hezbollah war, Southern Israel has not been evacuated. Rockets flying out of Gaza are fewer and smaller than those that were shot out of Lebanon. Terrorism usually doesn’t work as well as its practitioners wish. So far the only thing terrorists in Gaza have accomplished is bringing about the return of the Israeli Defense Forces.

I saw a huge pile of busted up pavement next to one of the streets. “What’s that?” I said to Zvika.

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“It is from a Qassam,” he said. “It landed right next to these houses and shattered the road.”

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“The houses look okay,” I said. But I remembered the damage I saw from Katyusha attacks by Hezbollah in Kiryat Shmona. Most of the damage done to buildings is cosmetic and easily fixable even while Katyushas are extraordinarily dangerous to human beings.

“If the Qassam lands next to you,” Zvika said, “it will kill you. But it if lands ten meters away it won’t kill you. Qassams are lightweight. If they had more explosives and weighed more the rockets wouldn’t go very far. They would land on the Palestinians.” He laughed and made a diving gesture with his hand. “The rockets are made in Gaza. Islamic Jihad and Hamas are not technologically sophisticated like the Hezbollah.”

If Katyusha rockets are pipsqueakers compared with IAF missiles, Qassams are practically spit balls compared with Katyushas. Then again, a Qassam is huge compared with a bullet, and a great deal more dangerous. They have only killed a handful of people, even so. The biggest danger from the Palestinian rocket war against Israel isn’t the damage Hamas and Islamic Jihad are able to inflict today. It’s the damage they could inflict tomorrow if they find a way to equip themselves with more powerful missiles that could render Southern and even Central Israel uninhabitable.

Zvika pointed to the alarm system on top of the roof of a school.

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“You have twenty or thirty seconds after you hear that alarm to get to a shelter,” he said. “It scares the children every time it goes off.”

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“Do they ever fire rockets at night?” I said. Hezbollah hardly ever fired Katyusha rockets at night because they did not want to give away the positions of the launchers to the Israeli military.

“Oh yes,” he said. “All day, all night, all the time.”

*

Earlier we had coffee at an outdoor café just far enough away from Gaza that we couldn’t quite see it.

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Zvika’s two children joined us.

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They had accompanied us during our entire tour along the border with Gaza, which just goes to show how normal-seeming such places can be when you live near them. I doubt many tourists ever take their kids to that border.

A Qassam could have struck us at any moment, although the odds were low enough that I didn’t worry about it. I even tried to worry about it just so I would have an idea what it can feel like to live next to Gaza. After spending a day and a half under fire from Hezbollah, though, Qassams didn’t seem like that big a deal.

Just as we were sitting there drinking our coffee, Zvika received a text message on his cell phone telling us that an incoming rocket struck Kibbutz Kissufim.

“That happened just now?” I said.

“Just now,” Zvika said.

It was far enough away that we didn’t hear it.

I wanted to know what Zvika thought about Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza last year now that he has to live under rocket fire in part as a result. Was withdrawing the settlements and the army the right thing to do?

“Yes,” Zvika said. But he does not want to withdraw from the West Bank. “It is our land. They can have Gaza. But Hebron has always been ours. They have only been there for 200 years.”

The United States has barely existed for more than 200 years. No one thinks non-native Americans should have to pack up and go back to Europe or wherever else their families came from. At some point the statute of limitations has to run out on these things. George Santayana famously said those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. P.J. O’Rourke went further and said it goes double for those who can’t remember anything else.

“Do you just want to sit on top of Palestinians forever?” I said to Zvika.

He shrugged.

“What is the solution to this problem?” Shika asked Zvika. Zvika had no answer, not even a bad one.

“What is the solution?” Shika said again. “What do you think is the solution?”

Zvika didn’t say anything.

“You want to keep the West Bank but give them Gaza?” I said.

“We gave them Gaza,” Zvika said, “and Lebanon. But Hamas and Hezbollah still want to kill us. Why? What did we do to Lebanon? Nothing. And they want to kill us!”

“The West Bank is different from Lebanon, though,” I said.

“Yes,” Zvika said. “It is our land.”

Zvika is in the minority. Shika calls him a “fanatic,” even though they are friends. The Israeli center as the well as the left wants out of the West Bank as well as out of Gaza. Ehud Olmert was elected in part on that platform.

There’s an old formula that has been floating around for a while.

1. Greater Israel
2. Democracy
3. Jewish Majority

Pick two.

Zvika and the rest of Israelis to the right of the mainstream still think, somehow, they will find a way to hold onto all three.

It didn’t matter what I said to Zvika. He just kept saying “It is our land,” as if that settled everything and there was nothing left to be said.

*

Shika and I left Zvika at Kibbutz Alumim and continued by ourselves in his truck to Kelem Shalom, where Israel, Gaza, and Egypt converge.

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This is where the young Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was kidnapped on June 25, triggering Operation Summer Rain that continues in Gaza today, almost entirely beyond any media coverage.

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Shalit was inside a tank near the tower pictured above. Eight terrorists emerged from an underground tunnel 700 meters long that began in a building in Gaza and ended as a hard-to-see hole in the middle of an Israeli field. They fired an RPG at the tank and killed two soldiers. Gilad Shalit emerged from the tank. The terrorists snatched him off the tank and stole him to Gaza. The whole operation took seven minutes.

Tunnels are appearing all over the place. Tunnels from Gaza into Egypt for smuggling weapons. Tunnels from Gaza into Israel for carrying out terrorist actions.

The Egyptian border patrol (pictured below) does shut down some of the smugglers’ tunnels, even though it is not their top priority.

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Tunnels are a top priority for Israel, though, along the border with Egypt as well as underneath their own territory.

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Those tunnels get people killed. They keep finding new ones beneath the houses.

Part III: A Volcano of Terror

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SOUTHERN ISRAEL, NEAR GAZA - On June 25, 2006, eight armed Palestinian men emerged from an underground tunnel through a hard-to-see hole in the ground, fired an RPG at an Israeli tank, killed two soldiers, snatched another young soldier, Gilad Shalit, and stole him away into Gaza. The attack lasted seven minutes. The Israeli Defense Forces then launched Operation Summer Rain against the kidnappers, against those who fire Qassam rockets at Israeli civilians, and against those who dig tunnels under the earth so they can smuggle weapons out of Egypt and carry out terrorist attacks inside Israel.

Soldiers keep watch on the border at a small military outpost just south of Kibbutz Nir Am.

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There I met Major Tal Lev-Ram, Spokesman for the IDF Southern Command. He unfurled an enormous map of Gaza and asked me please not to take any pictures of it. Code names for villages and neighborhoods were hand-written with red ink in Hebrew.

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“When we left the Gaza Strip we didn’t think the terrorism would stop," he said. "We understood that there would no longer be any legitimacy for them to act. A year after they continue to re-arm. The terrorist groups -- Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad -- they did not turn the areas we left into schools, factories, and so on. They became training camps for the terrorist groups.”

The major knows passable English, but he chose to speak to me in Hebrew through a translator. I had hoped for an interview with an English-speaking officer. But none of the spokesman for the Southern Command are fluent in English. All the English speakers were sent to the Northern Command so they could talk to foreign media during the Lebanon war. Only Israeli journalists who write and broadcast in Hebrew showed much interest in the military confrontation in Gaza.

“We also left the Egypt-Gaza border," he said. "The Egyptians are responsible for it now. They are doing an okay job, but there is still a lot of smuggling and so on.”

“They’re using tunnels?” I said.

“We found two tunnels just two weeks ago," he said. "They are very organized, with electricity and everything. One city straddles the border. It’s basically one city on each side. They are digging tunnels to connect them.”

“Do the Egyptians shut down the tunnels?” I said.

“We spend great effort finding and exposing the tunnels," he said. "The Egyptians make an effort, but it is not the highest priority for them.”

I taped our conversation with a digital voice recorder, as is routine for me lately. A young Israeli soldier took notes by hand at the same time. Perhaps it was her job to make sure I did not misquote the spokesman. Or maybe she was checking on him. It's hard to say. I didn't ask her why she recorded everything, and no one in the military ever told me I need to clear my work with any censors.

“We have good defenses on the border fence," the major said. “Last year more than 70 terrorists were killed trying to breach it. Because the area is very confined, terrorism is brewing. They keep trying to find ways to go outside. It is like a volcano of terror. It needs to go somewhere. They try to go around, out into Egypt, and then over to the Israeli side. Sometimes they try to cross back in right next to Gaza. Other times they go down near Eilat [at the bottom of Israel.]”

Gaza is tiny. It's 30 or so miles long and only a few miles wide.

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“[They try] to go around the border," he said, "in order to move information, training, and terrorists, and ammunition to their side from the West Bank. They are always trying to find ways to go around the Israeli border. They also fired something like 1,000 Qassam rockets since the disengagement until now. For no reason.”

“How many people have been killed by the Qassams?" I said.

“This year?" he said. "Zero."

Zero! No wonder the Israelis who live near Gaza haven't evacuated. Southern Israel at war is not like Northern Israel during Hezbollah's Katyusha war.

"But terror is terror," he said. "If you are afraid to send your child to a kindergarten, for me it’s the same. For now it’s the Qassam. In the future they will have more than today. 20 people in the past were killed by the Qassams. And like I said, terror is terror. You feel terror.”

I asked him if he thought the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was a good idea. He wouldn't answer and said that his opinion as a military man didn't matter. The Israeli military takes orders from the democratically elected government, and that's that.

“One of the major events after the disengagement," he did say, "was the election of Hamas. They became the government in the Gaza Strip. Their principal goal is to destroy Israel. And they actually commit terror. Israel can’t accept that we left the Gaza Strip and still face daily terror attacks on and over the fence. Around 60 times charges of 50 kilograms were exploded on the fence. Also RPG and M-16 attacks on the fence against our forces. On Passover an attempt was prevented to go into a Kibbutz near the Karni Terminal...The second event that had a significant role in changing the rules of the game was the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. We came to the decision that we need to take some sort of aggressive action in the Gaza Strip. The decision was to act against specific cells in different places. So we’re not talking about conquering land. We’re talking about operations of a few days each. We’re going in to destroy the infrastructure of terrorists. We can’t finish all the terror. But we can punch against it. During these operations more than 200 terrorists were killed. Weapons storages, training camps, all the infrastructure, factories where they make Qassam rockets.”

“How do you know where the factories are?" I said. "Do you have Palestinians informers?”

“We have good intelligence,” he said and laughed. “We have good military intelligence.”

It's no secret that many Palestinians cooperate (or "collaborate") with Israel against terrorists. But I decided to be a good sport and let him deflect the question. He wouldn't be able to say anything on the record that isn't already widely known anyway.

“Another pattern that’s unusual," he said. "They use the civilian population as human shields.” It's not really unusual. Hezbollah did the same thing in Lebanon. Fighters in Iraq do it there, too, although some in Iraq also deliberately murder Iraqis.

“Does the local population let them do this?” I said.

“It’s a problem," he said. "Sometimes we see resistance. But it’s difficult to judge from our perspective. We see a lot of cases where Katyusha or Qassam rockets are fired from within populated areas. More than that, they came up with a system that was based on the fear that we would find the exact location of the rocket launchers. So they place the launchers with a timer. And ten, eleven, and twelve year old children come and take the launcher away afterwards. Often we’re faced with fourteen or fifteen year old youth who come, armed, and place charges along the fence. When we see them, even when we see that they are armed, if they are only fourteen or fifteen we only shoot to scare them. We don’t actually fire at them. Of course, only if there is no immediate danger to our forces.

“Our general instructions," he continued, "not just in the these cases, is if we see a militant who is armed, a terrorist, and there is no immediate danger to our forces, we don’t fire if there is a danger that we would hurt the innocents, people who are not involved. But with that, it’s important to say that when we have such aggressive fighting in populated areas, when there’s an exchange of fire between terrorists and the IDF, there are cases where innocent people get hurt. But we warn as much as we can to step back, step away, to clear the area. So we see the terror organizations as responsible when civilians get hurt. And when there is a case and we know that a civilian was killed by mistake or unnecessarily, we check ourselves. When a rocket is fired and we respond with artillery fire, there could be civilians hurt. We don’t fire into populated areas. Only to the exact spots where they fired Qassams. If it’s in the middle of the city, we will not shoot.”

Sadly it's impossible to fight terrorists, guerillas, or whatever you want to call them, in populated areas without hurting civilians. No one has yet invented the Bad Guy Bullet that flies safely past innocents and hits only the armed. The fact that Palestinian terrorists, like those everywhere else in the Middle East, make blending in with the civilian population part of their modus operandi means civilian casualties are unavoidable in a fight. It doesn't help that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth.

“About a month and a half ago," he said, "another event that shows you the dilemma here: Two terrorists with an RPG tried to shoot a tank. We shot back. In the same house the mother of them, and a cousin, were in the same house. They fired five meters away from where the mother and cousin were standing. The Palestinian headline said that a mother and child were killed. The child was twenty two years old. And he was a member of Hamas. So, I am not happy about the mother. But, this is my right. You know? In the houses of Hamas militants, and all the other terrorist organizations, there are storages of weaponry. That’s because in the past we would avoid attacking houses with families. Which raises the question: Sometimes we as the IDF care more about the families and the children than he who would put them in danger. In a house, let’s say of three floors, a whole floor may be used as a storage.”

A tunnel had recently been found near the Karni terminal where goods and materials cross from Israel into Gaza. I asked if I could see it.

“I will take you to Karni," he said. "But you cannot see the tunnel. It is inside the Palestinian territory. One kilometer inside. You understand? It is one kilometer inside the Palestinian territory." In other words, the tunnel diggers are determined. They will spend Lord only knows how many hours digging and digging and digging, knowing most tunnels are discovered before they're completed, just on the off chance that they'll make it all the way into Israel and get to maybe kill one or two people.

“One more thing I want to say," he said. "We will not stop the military action until Gilad Shalit comes back to us. But -- and I say this to the press all the time -- if there will be silence on our side for our villages it will be quiet on the Palestinian side.”

"How many soldiers have been killed since Gilad Shalit was kidnapped?" I said.

“All the year, before Gilad Shalit, no one. In the Shalit event, two soldiers died. And after that one more soldier died from friendly shooting. That’s all. So this is the big question for them. The spokesman of the government for Palestinians three days ago said the same thing I say all the time. For what? For what? For three soldiers who were killed in Gaza. In all the year something like 500 terrorists died in Gaza. So for what? The organizations of terror need to understand that it’s not worth it for them. And they can choose. We left the territory in the Gaza Strip, so it’s up to them. We will not stop the Qassam only with military pressure. They need to decide that they want to stop it. And if they will stop the Qassams, if they will stop the terror, free Gilad Shalit, we won’t have anything to fight about. And Karni will be open more. And everything will be better for them, not for us. This is the question. This is the biggest question, I think. And if you have time to read what the spokesman for Hamas government said, I think he can replace me.” He laughed. “Yeah? This is the truth. He is a good man.”

And he laughed again. Not because he was joking, but because it truly is an alternate Middle Eastern universe when the spokesman for Hamas echoes precisely the views of the spokesman for the IDF Southern Command.

Skeptical? Read for yourself. Hamas Spokesman Ghazi Hamad comes across like a world-weary man ground down and plainly despondent from a largely self-imposed Palestinian catastrophe.

I had a faint hope after Hamas was elected that the reality check from hell might finally kick in. And at least in one case, and for one day, it did.

*

The major drove to an area near the Karni Terminal in his jeep.

Karni Terminal Sign.jpg

I followed behind him in my rental car. He took us straight into a dirt field. I nearly took the muffler off my poor little Hundai when I drove over a basketball-sized dirt clod as hard as a rock. We stepped out into the open where there was no shade from the fierce Levantine sun at the end of the summer. Distant machine gun fire was almost, but not quite, drowned out in the wind.

"Kalashnikov," said my translator who, like many Israelis, can identify weapons by sound.

A large truck-mounted surveillance camera monitored Gaza just to our left.

Gaza Surveillance Truck.jpg

"Two days ago was Gilad Shalit's birthday," said the major. “One soldier from his unit said he was glad to be in Gaza fighting the people who took him. His family and friends released hundreds of balloons into the air from the place where he was kidnapped.”

I wanted to know about that tunnel the IDF found.

“The plan was to use it for suicide bombings at Karni,” he said. “I can’t understand it. Karni is their lifeline, their life. This is the biggest reason we closed it. It’s hard to understand why they keep doing these things at the crossing points unless they are trying to make life harder in Gaza.”

Two months ago Palestinian police stopped a car bomber heading toward Karni. Six months ago the IDF stopped three terrorists with M-16s, grenades, and suicide bomb belts at the Erez crossing point where people, rather than goods, transit into and out of Gaza.

“We think there are many many more tunnels," the major said. "The Kelem Shalom action [where Gilad Shalit was kidnapped] was through a 700 meter-long tunnel. We can’t just stay here and wait for the tunnels to come to us. In a few hours we will bomb that one we just found."

And bomb it they did, from below. Click here to watch the video.

"How many Qassam rockets are they firing now?" I said. I saw more than a dozen Katyushas fired from Hezbollah in the north, but I did not see a single Qassam fired from Gaza.

“Sixty per week at the start of Operation Summer Rain," he said. "Ever since the number has been going down. Now there are only five per week. Hamas has partly put a stop to this because they know terror does not work for them.”

"How good are the fighters in Gaza compared with the Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon?" I said.

“I don’t mean to dismiss anyone," he said. "Some fights are serious here. But you can’t compare them with Hezbollah. Hezbollah has more weapons and uses more guerilla activity. Hamas doesn’t have big rockets yet. Yet. The word yet is very important. Hezbollah also is more organized. You shouldn’t underestimate anyone. We had some people wounded in the fight here. Some in Gaza fight very good. But we killed hundreds of terrorists since Summer Rain. We had only one soldier killed in friendly fire, and ten to twelve wounded.”

"How long until this fight is over?" I said. I meant the current fighting in Gaza, but he seemed to have thought I meant the Arab-Israeli conflict in general.

“I don’t see the end now," he said. "Maybe this part will be soon be finished. Shalit will be back. For a while it will be quiet. The question, you know, is for the other side. Because we went out of Gaza and then it started. If they get more democratic and reduce the chaos…that’s my hope. We need to be strong and give a chance for something else. It’s in the interest of the Palestinian side now to have another life.”

We left the field and drove straight to the fence. I wanted to get as close to Gaza as possible. We parked next to large concrete wall placed there for protection.

"So this wall," I said. "Is it to protect us from snipers or from rockets?

“From everything," the major said. Barriers of all kinds are erected near the Palestinian territories. One road I took next to the West Bank was shielded on one side by bullet-proof glass because some Palestinians like to randomly shoot rifles at cars.

The fenced border between Israel and Gaza was right in front of us. The fence is electric. It won't shock you if you touch it. But it will send a signal to the Israeli military telling them where contact was made so they can dispatch soldiers to that location.

"What would you do," I said, "if you saw somebody from the other side walk up and stand right there?"

Gaza Through Barbed Wire 3.jpg

“Eh, it depends," he said.

"It depends on what he’s doing?" I said.

“Of course.”

"If he’s just standing there it’s not a problem?" I said.

“No, it’s a problem," he said. "Because sometimes they come like a citizen and they put charges there. If it’s in the day and we see a man, the soldiers come. If someone goes to the fence he has some reason. If we see some people come in the night we have a procedure. We start by shouting to them to go. But if they continue…okay? If it’s in the night, well you know, night is night. The thing is to make them understand not to come. Sometimes Palestinians come and want to go into Israel to work. They want to come into Israel not for military action but to come inside for working. But it is very complicated, especially in the night, to know who is the person."

"How many people who come to the fence aren't here to fight?" I said.

“Here is a sad story," he said. "One Palestinian went to the fence with a grenade. Not a militant. He came to the fence and we did not understand it. Because we told him to stop and he dropped it and everything was okay. Sometimes they want to be in the Israeli jail.”

"To get out of Gaza?" I said.

“Because maybe the food in the jail is better," he said. "I don’t know. It’s a few, it’s not, you know, all the time.”

Gaza itself is often described as a prison. The reason I didn't go in there myself is because I was briefly affiliated with Time magazine and they ordered me to stay out. They had neither the time nor the inclination to take out a war insurance policy on me. But a Danish journalist I know, Louis Stigsgaard Nissen, did get a brief tour of Gaza and she described it as an absolute horror, a far worse place than the West Bank which both of us had visited in the past.

Trash has not been collected for months, so much of Gaza City looks like a garbage dump that happens to have buildings inside it. The garbage is seeping now into the water. Israeli doctors are returning because the Palestinians desperately need medical help. She interviewed a man who lives in a sports stadium with his children. She was nearly run over in the street by a truck driven by gunmen and bristling with weapons.

Gaza Through Barbe Wire 2.jpg

"Is anyone really in charge inside Gaza?" I asked the major.

“That is the question," he said. "They have a government, but there is a power struggle among the armed groups.”

Once again we heard rapid machine gun fire in the middle distance. He and I stood right next to the concrete wall and could have taken cover. But the shooting had nothing to do with us and sounded just barely far enough away. So we didn’t move. It's funny what you get used to. I've never been in the army, and I'm unaccustomed to being in war zones. But it doesn't take long to get used to it.

“We have a connection with the Palestinian police and with the army," he said. "For example if we found some charges that they put on their side of the second fence the Palestinian police come to take it or to boom it. In the operations today because of the army, and the pressure, and the militants, there was a fire between us and the Palestinians next to a place where gasoline was stored and also some baby chickens, you know, the little ones. And we talked with the Palestinian police and they brought some trucks in to take them out. We saved them from the RPGs.”

He spoke in English now instead of through a translator, and I wasn't sure I understood.

"So the Israeli side and the Palestinian side cooperated in the middle of a war to save baby chickens?" I said. "And then started fighting again?"

“Not exactly," he said. "If you see the story as a simple one, yes. But the ones we talked with were not the ones shooting the RPGs. So it’s a very complicated story. But we talked with the police and the citizens talk with the army to help them. We told the citizens: Not now. It’s dangerous. The militants are firing RPGs.

Gaza Through Barbed Wire.jpg

“It is very strange," he continued. "But it is our world. It is us against them, but they are divided inside. This is the story of Gaza.”

Post-script: Please hit the Pay Pal button and help pay travel expenses for independent writing. I am not a rich person, and I can’t do this without help. I want to do more of this in the future, and I’m working on getting myself to Baghdad as soon as possible.

If you would like to donate money for travel expenses and you don't want to use Pay Pal, you can send a check or money order to:

Michael Totten
P.O. Box 312
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Many thanks in advance.

All photos copyright Michael J. Totten

Posted by Michael J. Totten at May 23, 2007 09:07 PM

Comments

Thanks for the reprint, Michael -- these were excellent articles then and now. A woman was killed in Sderot yesterday, I read, and some livestock on Kibbutz Nir Am. Schools and homes have been hit -- either the Palestinians' aim is better, or they're having a run of favorable cross-winds.

Israel now toys with evacuating Sderot, but that seems utter madness to me -- I understand the civilians can't stand much more, but once you let the terrorists drive your border back foot by foot, you've lost the game.

Here's what the Gazan militants said: "The Salah al-Din Brigades, the Popular Resistance Committees' military wing, called on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to establish a new ministry called "the office for refugee affairs", to deal with Israelis fleeing Sderot.

"The organization's spokesman, Abu Abir, told Ynet that 'the rocket fire will continue and the escape of Sderot residents will also continue. Therefore, the Israeli government should deal with them and return them to the countries they came from.'"

I keep wondering if the timing of this nasty uptick is partly to keep Olmert and Peretz in power -- make it ugly enough and Israelis may not feel like unrest and elections are a wise move. The other part seems like a very clear slap at the Saudi's Piece Plan -- which I gather Hamas has adamantly rejected. They've certainly shown there's no point at all in discussing it.

This doesn't have a good feeling about it. The other day an IDF or Intell guy described Hamas and the other militants as having grabbed the bit in their teeth, and finally they are careening out of control.

Posted by: Pam at May 23, 2007 11:17 PM

Could you post some pictures and/or analysis from your December trip to Sderot?

Posted by: Raees al Jumhuriyeh at May 24, 2007 09:25 AM

pam,

what the west refuses to understand and accept is that in the arab/muslim culture lack of proper response to aggressiveness is interpreted as weakness and invites worse aggressiveness. as long as they do they burry themselves.

as long as the israelis keep olmert and peretz in power, things will get only worse.

the problem is that the crisis of leadership is general: i don't see anybody in israel who is significantly better. the two main candidates are previous failures.

Posted by: fp at May 24, 2007 09:32 AM

On this video report from Gaza, a Palestinian explains that many people there wish the Israelis would return!

20 years ago I remember arguing with a right-wing friend and telling him that Israel had to withdraw from the occupied territories. He insisted that were that to happen Gaza would become a terrorist haven from which missiles would be launched straight into Israel. He went on to say that it would become such a lawless cesspool that the Palestinians would start begging for Israel to return.

I thought he was nuts.

Looks like he was right.

Posted by: mertel at May 24, 2007 12:19 PM

mertel,

it would be hard for anybody with half a brain not to regret that:

http://www.canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/10056.shtml

however, keep in mind that these things fluctuate with the wind and that the very same people would turn against israel the minute the latter returned and improved their lot. (and if they continue to say this they will be taken care of by the terrorists.)

it looks like here we go again. as soon as israel responds like it should, they scream for a truce. but the minute they get a truce they reorganize, rearm and we're back to square one:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708667838&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

as long as israel continues to play this hamas' game over and over again, never learning anything, they are committing suicide.

Posted by: fp at May 24, 2007 12:31 PM

What the CIA has to say about Palestinian economics back in 2002:

"Economic output in the Gaza Strip - under the responsibility of the Palestinian Authority since the Cairo Agreement of May 1994 - declined by about one-third between 1992 and 1996. The downturn was largely the result of Israeli closure policies - the imposition of generalized border closures in response to security incidents in Israel - which disrupted previously established labor and commodity market relationships between Israel and the WBGS (West Bank and Gaza Strip)."

And this year:

"The beginning of the second intifadah in September 2000 sparked an economic downturn, largely the result of Israeli closure policies; these policies, which were imposed to address security concerns in Israel, disrupted labor and trade access to and from the Gaza Strip. In 2001, and even more severely in 2003, Israeli military measures in PA areas resulted in the destruction of capital, the disruption of administrative structures, and widespread business closures."

http://tinyurl.com/ysemej

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 01:06 PM

Alphie,

Do you care to comment on the implications of your above-listed quotes. I find them an interesting, if hardly exhaustive examination of the issue. I would imagine the underlying reports and other studies would shed substantial light on the question. In any event, I would read them to imply that Palestinian violence undermined their economy by forcing Israel to take the reasonable measure of closing down their border crossings from time to time. In other words, a Palestinian government committed to Israel's security is good for the Palestinian economy. I would imagine that cross-border rocket attacks and suicide bombings emanating from Mexico into California would be bad for Mexico's economy as well (and as it should be, we should harldy be rewarding belligerence with money and greater opportunities for belligerence).

While you're researching this topic, you might want to spend some time looking into the Palestinian economy and how the money filtered into the economy is actually spent (what percentage of the population have government jobs? what percentage with government jobs are really patronage positions or "security money", how much goes to infrastructure, etc.) You might also want to look at the impact of intercine violence, clan and turf wars, and an education system built around justifying hatred instead of math and advanced science on the economy.

By the way, are you aware of what happened to the infrastructure left behind by Israel when they left Gaza?

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 24, 2007 01:36 PM

There are legitimate military targets, and then there are questionable targets whose destruction may be viewed as collective economic punishment, IM.

I seem to remember that Michael reported that Israel had destroyed Lebanon's only milk factory during last summer's troubles.

Maybe the Levant is just a tough place to make an economy thrive?

After all, Israel itself depends economically on massive subsidies from the U.S. and Europe.

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 01:54 PM

Alphie,

The quotes you provided cited only crossing closures as a source of the downturn in the Palestinian economy. I asked for your comment on what those quotes meant. I have no clue what your response is referring to. How we went from the Palestinian to "the Levant" and Lebanon, is beyond me and what Israel's economy has to do with it is also beyond me. Virtually every government in that region relies on US largesse to help their economy, Israel, perhaps, less than others. The question remains, how do you interpret the CIA factbook quotes that you provided? In other words, what was your point in posting them? As I indicated, it seems to me that those quotes suggest that the Palistinian violence is the primary cause of their economic woes because it cut off their access to outside markets by making it unsafe for Israel to keep its crossings open. If I remember correctly, the primary impact was on the flower crop.

FWIW, I think you might be surprised by my position concerning Israel's measures to stop violence eminating from Palestine or their actions in Lebanon this past summer. I agree that certain targets of the Israeli military were strategically questionable and might be viewed as collective punishment.

It would be helpful if, when you raise an issue without comment, as you did with the CIA quotes, you made some effort to remain on topic when you are questioned about it. Again, you posted quotes pertaining to the Palestinian economy and how the first and second intifadas negatively impacted their economy. I suggested that such information implied that the Palestinians would be well served economically by adopting a policy of non-violence toward Israel in order to assure that its paths to maintain business remained open. If you have a different interpretation of those quotes, I would be happy to hear them. I don't think your last post was at all responsive to my question, however.

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 24, 2007 02:33 PM

I don't think your last post was at all responsive to my question, however.

Don't expect that to change any time soon. Most of us around here tire rather quickly of trying to have a normal conversation with Alphie.

There are others who share his general point of view who are more worth your time and respond to arguments like a normal person. (Glasnost, for instance.)

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 24, 2007 02:41 PM

Thanks Michael,

I agree that Glasnost provides a worthwhile perspective and was not inclined to put much more effort into Alphie if he continues to be unresponsive, but I saw little harm in one foray back into the arena. I seem to recall a comment by him in recent days that was both on point and acknowledged the strength of another poster's comment.

Moreover, I do think the quotes he selected were interesting and not at all contrary to the opinions of the vast majority of the posters here. I thought it was worthwhile to comment on their implications whether or not Alphie had anything further to add.

BTW, the weather is great. You really should be outside instead of at the computer monitoring your readers. We all know you don't start writing til midnight anyway:)

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 24, 2007 02:50 PM

fink,

why didn't you ask him to read the article by karsh I linked to and compare it to his selective picks from the cia?

not to mention: is that the cia whose data and analysis were so accurate about 9/11, iraq, now iran etc?

Posted by: fp at May 24, 2007 02:51 PM

not contrary to the majority of the opinion here because very few here know the facts.

that's why I posted the link to karsh. why don't you read it and see what is contrary to what.

Posted by: fp at May 24, 2007 02:54 PM

jp,

Thanks for the response. I've read the Karsh link and, as I hinted at when stating that the CIA factbook was an incomplete statement on the matter, there are certainly a number of factors that have led to the current state of the Palestinian economy. Foremost amongst those reasons have been the Palestinians themselves, or more particularly, those they have chosen or have had chosen for them to govern, and the clan leaders, fanatics, terrorists, and war lords who have continued to oppress them. In fact, Israel, when secure from terrorist threat, has only been a boon to the Palestinian economy. Whether the CIA put the blame where it squarely belongs was not my point. I agree with you on that issue. Rather, my point was, even if you believe that the CIA accurately pinpointed the cause at the closures, the lesson to be drawn was not that Israel was at fault, but that the Palestinians would benefit from a culture of non-violence toward Israel.

I think the majority of MJT's readers would agree that it is in the Palestinian's best interests (both economically and politically) to bring an end to the violence directed at Israel and I think the CIA quotes, however inadequate at addressing the real issues, supports that proposition.

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 24, 2007 03:09 PM

The bad Palestinian economy is mostly due to Palestinian violence. Please remember -- all gov't jobs are paid by money that is NOT collected peacefully and voluntarily.

Neoneocon has a fine note on permanent Palestinian victimhood, including such thoughts from 1961.

Another idea I have for reducing the Palestinian problems: Cantonization. Use the Swiss model, and break up Gaza into two cantons, as well as many more in the West Bank. So local mayors/ top dogs have more local power, but limited.

There should be an end to aid to Palestinian gov't structures, and only support for "businesses", especially microloans for small startups, though some big private investments would be useful.

Michael, these were great the first time, too. I had forgotten your great beginning ("the road dead-ends at the Erez Crossing Point...").

The sick Palestinian culture of violence needs to LOSE in a real war. But that requires too much death of the not-fully guilty (though not innocent).

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at May 24, 2007 03:22 PM

What do you want we to say, fp?

That the Palestinians share the blame for the sorry state of their economy?

Of course they do.

I thought that was implied, as you say.

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 03:24 PM

Alphie,

By Jove, I think you've got it!

That's exactly what we want. Cogent, thought out replies that address the questions raised and acknowledge and address the points raised by others. We want more than that, of course, such as staying on topic, using a civil tone, quoting in context, etc..., but acknowledging someone else's point is a good start.

Of course "shared" is a vague term and does little to suggest how responsibility is shared and who bears what responsibility in the remedy, but that discussion can hold for another day.

No, nothing was implied in your earliest post. It was simply a couple of quotes, pulled completely out of context, that ignored a prior post referencing to the same subject in greater detail, and without any commentary by yourself to illuminate why you quoted the source in the first place (something you have still yet to do).

Nevertheless, you have now acknowledged at least part of the arguments put forth by others on this board (even if somewhat peevishly) and for that, you deserve credit. So, WELL DONE.

With any hope, some time in the not to distant future, you will be contributing to the discourse on this blog at the same level as a Glasnost, or other civil and thoughtful objectors to the prevailing viewpoint.

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 24, 2007 03:39 PM

Fink,

Instead of picking selectively quotes, I posted a footnoted analysis by a scholar. Vive la difference.

As to to sharing responsibility, the palestinian have the lion one. even when israel fucks up, it does so in order to defend itself. that's not easy, particularly under the pressure of a hypocritical world, so they don't always do smart thing. but they do not initiate it.

but if you judge by the media and the net left -- which, i am willing to bet, informs the trolls here, you get what you get. like they say: "conventional wisdom", which is usually a contradiction in terms.

Posted by: fp at May 24, 2007 04:17 PM

fp,

I think you're reading past me a little bit. I agree with you completely and I think a closer reading of my prior posts would confirm that.

As I said before, I read your Karsh link (in fact, I have read it before) and think it does a far better job of addressing the economic issues in Palestine than a few, selected snippets from the CIA.

Perhaps you have confused a couple of my posts with Alphie's, who I have been criticizing and encouraging to look a little more deeply or at least flesh out his thoughts a little bit so as to give the rest of us a little more to chew on.

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 24, 2007 05:44 PM

Can we then also get a little sympathy for the people of Iraq, who will now have to endure another year of war in their country thanks to today's vote in the House, IM?

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 06:32 PM

Alphie,

You don't actually think the war will stop when we leave, do you?

It will surely get a lot worse.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 24, 2007 06:38 PM

Depends on what you call "worse" Michael.

About 80% of the attacks in Iraq are directed against our forces. Lots of civilians die in these attacks. These attacks will stop when we're gone, obviously.

For the average Iraqi, I think the war will get "better" once we're gone.

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 06:40 PM

Now, now, Alphie. Now, look what you've gone and done. And after that brief moment of heading in the right direction. This thread was back on track and we were talking about Israel and Palestine again and, then, off we go to Iraq.

Let's try this one more time. One thing we would all appreciate is if you can try to stay on topic, rather than hijacking threads in strange directions. While MJT frequently discusses Iraq, this is not that thread, and, if one isn't currently posted, then it really isn't up for discussion. Of course, you can feel free to start such a discussion on your blog if you would like.

MJT - After twice being mildly chastised by you for feeding this particular troll, I'm a little disappointed you rose to his bait this time:)

I'll save my comments on the staying/leaving Iraq for a future thread.

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 24, 2007 06:49 PM

(Disengaging.)

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 24, 2007 06:56 PM

you misunderstood me.

I was not criticizing you. I was just explaining the difference between the troll evidence and mine
and a clarification of the responsibility sharing which was not targetted at you specifically either.

Posted by: fp at May 24, 2007 06:56 PM

This might be true, Alphie, if you consider every bullet or mortar round fired from a distance to be equally an attack. But when you look at attacks in the context of Iraqi deaths and injuries that they cause, the vast majority of those deaths and injuries are caused primarily by Al Qaedan and Baathist remnant attacks upon the Iraqi populace, and secondarily, by Mahdist militia attacks upon suspected Baathist remnants and Al Qaedan jihadis and their sympathizers. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed by the US and its coalition partners are precisely these Baathist remnant, Al Qaedan jihadis and Mahdist militia murderers, and thus contribute to saving the lives of Iraqi citizens that would be lost should such murderers live on to continue their terrorist depredations.

Posted by: Salamantis at May 24, 2007 06:56 PM

fp,

Thanks for the clarification.

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 24, 2007 07:03 PM

Salamantis,

The attacks against our forces, the atacks by our forces, the road blocks and property destruction take the same toll on Iraq's economy as the Hamas-Israel troubles do on Gaza's.

We are killing Iraq, and we don't seem to care.

Better to fight them there than here, eh?

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 07:12 PM

No, Alphie; as I explained to you at length above, Al Qaeda jihadists, Baathist remnants, and Iranian-sponsored Mahdist militias are the ones who are killing Iraqis, as well as (a much lower level of) US troops, and we DO care - which is why we're spending the lives of our own troops to hunt down and kill these murderers. They are also the ones who are, quite intentionally, attacking economic infrastructure, and they would continue to do so, with much greater effectiveness, should we leave, until they toppled the fledgling democracy in Iraq and carved out their own enclaves, from which the Al Qaedans, at least, could, and would, plan, train for and perpetrate attacks upon us within our shores, as is their professed intention, and as they have done before, when they had such a safe haven in Afghanistan.

If we should leave Iraq now, the broad consensus is that the ensuing bloodbath there would dwarf all recent loss of life there. Do you want that? Do you not care about the lives and welfare of the Iraqi people? But then again, few of those who engineered the US withdrawal from Vietnam after we had militarily defeated the Communists there seemed to care about the ensuing bloodbath in that nation...

One thing you said is, however, true; no matter where we are or are not, we will have to deal with the jihadis. 9/11 shows what happens when we don't. They have already publicly professed, and acted upon, their unswerving intention to engage us anywhere that they can manage, whether in Iraq, in Afghanistan, or within our own borders.

It takes two sides to make peace, but only one side to make war - and they have announced numerous times that they intend to continue to make war upon us until either they, or we, are not only defeated, but either subjugated or destroyed. Considering their actions to date, I tend to believe them. I also note how historically dangerous it is to NOT believe such pronouncements; check Adolph's genocidal promises for that lesson.

Posted by: Salamantis at May 24, 2007 08:42 PM

you don't get it, salamantis? alphie is what i call a vociferous ignoramus. stop feeding the troll.

Posted by: fp at May 24, 2007 08:43 PM

Sal,

It doesn't matter who is doing what.

Our inability to do anything about it should be obvious by now. All we do is add to the death and destruction...and piss away an amount of money equal to twice Iraq's GDP each year.

China's leaders probably laughed so hard they crapped themselves when they saw today's Iraq votes.

Iraq's oil will belong to them soon enough and they didn't have to fire a shot.

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 08:53 PM

Well, Alphie, I guess that's why the majority Shiite Iraqi Government hasn't voted to ask us to leave, even though we've publicly stated that we'd abide by such a vote (the recent submission of such a motion by the Sadrists was a propaganda ploy that is going nowhere fast). And why their foreign minister, prime minister and president condemn democratic efforts to force a US pullout, and plead with us to stay. And why the Iraqi Kurds beg us to remain. And why the Iraqi Red Crescent (their version of the Red Cross) warns of a bloodbath should we go. And why even the Anbar tribes are imploring us not to leave. I guess those stupid brown people just don't know what's in their own best interests, but you do; ayy?

Posted by: Salamantis at May 24, 2007 09:29 PM

To clarify, 'democratic' (small d) should've been 'Democratic' (large D) in the above post.

Let me also say that we also want to leave Iraq, and the Iraqis want us to leave, but not yet. We will not flee the field in the face of our jihadist foes - this means that we are not leaving Iraq until the foreign infiltrator Al Qaedans have been so devastatingly crushed and the Iraqi democratically and indigenously elected government has been so strengthened that it can comfortably deal with whatever few of their jihadis remain or continue to infiltrate there.

The Iraqis do not want us to withdraw until this is done, either.

We betrayed them once, in Gulf War I, and hundreds of thousands of them were subsequently slaughtered by Saddam. And we saw what happened in Afghanistan - and in the US - when we allowed radical Islamists to fill a power vacuum there following the Soviet withdrawal.

We will not allow such things to happen - to them or to us - again.

Posted by: Salamantis at May 24, 2007 09:41 PM

Sounds very noble, Sal.

And if America and Iraq were the only countries on earth, it would even make sense.

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 09:52 PM

Yes, it is noble. Such is America.

There are many steps that must be taken in the long, evolutionarily progressive social journey, from widespread totalitarianism, theocracy and tyranny imposed by the powerful, violent and murderous few upon the oppressed and brutalized many, to the destination of liberty, justice, prosperity and self-determination for all the world's peoples. It is a journey that will not be completed in our lifetimes. And Iraq and Afghanistan are just two of the steps in that journey. But they are the steps that we are taking now.

Posted by: Salamantis at May 24, 2007 10:08 PM

You are not going to change Alphie's mind, nor are you likely to get a thought-out strategy to deal with any of these problems.

Alphie doesn't strategize. He snarks.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 24, 2007 10:15 PM

It takes two sides to make peace, but only one side to make war - and they have announced numerous times that they intend to continue to make war upon us until either they, or we, are not only defeated, but either subjugated or destroyed.

And that sort of summarizes the Pals' Position vis-a-vis Israel. No matter what Israel says or does, Hamas re-interprets it (hmmm... something like our neighborhood troll) to justify moral, verbal, or physical aggression against Israel.

Just look, MJT -- you disengaged, and did peace break out? Was that the beginning of a constructive use of opportunity and space?

No! the blogography was seized by alphie as a base for his unrelated, broad-brush incursions. Disengagement didn't work, and neither has the attempt at civilized dialogue by earnest foreign diplomats thinking to domesticate him. Fucking NGOs!

I sadly have to agree with Tom Grey -- it increasingly seems the Palestinians must decisively lose a WAR -- not merely endure another policing action. But I shiver to think what it would actually take to make Israel respond in that ferocious and unmodulated a fashion.

Posted by: Pam at May 24, 2007 10:22 PM

I can indeed see that tendency in him, Michael. I have seen it many times before in many others. But I still try to do what I can, for my own benefit, and for theirs. This is, after all, as much a battle of ideas as it is one of arms.

My personal method of dealing with such trolls is to cram dissonant facts, logic and history down their throats until they cognitively gag on them, in the hope that the violence of their own gag reflex will shock them into some semblance of understanding and awareness.

It doesn't always, or even often, work. Many of these trolls have irretrievebly shackled their self-concept and self-esteem - to the false and flawed positions they embrace, internalize and interminably regurgitate - beyond all relinquishing, and are simply too far gone down the path of zombic memebothood to respond, except to either themselves self-protectively disengage, or else to increasingly mindlessly parrot their self-indoctrinated party line, in complete and utter irrelevance to what is being said to them.

But sometimes it does work. And those few awakenings make it, to me, worth the many failures.

Posted by: Salamantis at May 24, 2007 10:45 PM

So Alphie wants Israel to leave itself wide open to terrorists and suicide bombers. He makes it absolutely clear that in his eyes the only good Jew is a dead Jew.

Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 24, 2007 10:48 PM

I try not to snark, but I seem to have failed again.

How about a bit of Tao in honor of Sal's vision quest instead?

That which is at rest is easily kept hold of.

Before a thing has given indications of its presence, it is easy to take measures
against it.

That which is brittle is easily broken.

That which is very small is easily dispersed.

Action should be taken before a thing has
made its appearance.

Order should be secured before disorder has
begun.

The tree which fills the arms grew from the tiniest sprout.

The tower of nine storeys rose from a small heap of earth.

The journey of a thousand li commenced with a single step.

Pity Lao-tzu can't run the Iraq War for us.

Good thing he's not running the insurgency.

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 10:53 PM

alphie, your quotes suck. WTF is wrong with you?

A tree that falls is not noticed. A tree that falls, grows some vines or something and takes over another tree becomes a new tree. I are stupid, I ARE ALPHIE.

Posted by: mikek at May 24, 2007 11:08 PM

gary,

you're too late, I already said that very thing a long time ago. :)

pam, sal,

israel is not likely to do it because it suffers a crisis of leadership -- it is weak, confused and incompetent, and seeks its security from the international community, the same one which is riddled with anti-semitism/zionism.

even a war defeat won't change hamas. it will only make them more frustrated and more desirable of martyrdom and virgins. they're a sucker for defeats.

and all the us does is issues empty condemnations and wishful thinking policies with no relations to reality

trolls are not in to convince or be convinced, but for attention. if his latest post has not convinced you i dk what will. stuffing his throat won't help, stopping to feed him will.

here's some worthy material:

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1624621,00.html
http://www.nysun.com/article/41767
http://www.meforum.org/article/605
http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1527
http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1528

Posted by: fp at May 24, 2007 11:17 PM

I rather like that verse, Mikek.

It's one of my favs.

Sorry you didn't like.

The anti-snark capaign will not admit defeat!

How about a bit of Beckett instead for the newly flush holy warriors then:

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.

Posted by: alphie at May 24, 2007 11:18 PM

I mentioned the lessons learned from one Axis power concerning the vast risks assumed by ignoring massive threats of violence and destruction. However, I neglected to mention the lesson learned, or not learned, for some, from the other one.

After Pearl Harbor, preactically no one any more doubted Japan's hostile intentions. Even Charles Lindbergh, who had been making speeches nationwide exhorting the US to stay out of WW II, relented and joined the US Air Force in America's defence, where he served with distinction.

It would seem that, after 9/11, the same lesson should have been learned by us vis-a-vis Al Qaeda. Sadly, for too many people, mainly leftists (which I strongly distinguish from liberals, of which I am one), it was not.
These people seem to have an unshakeable faith in the malevolence of the United States, and therefore an unlimited supply of denial and tolerance for the brutally cruel and honestly admitted intolerance of our enemies.

This situation reminds me of a saying by Friedrich Nietszche (although he was referring to Christianity); faith is not wanting to know. I am afraid that it is even worse than that now. For these folks, their America-hating faith means actually wanting NOT to know - and not wanting anyone else to know, either - about the tyrannical nature and fanatical determination of our adversaries, and the absolute necessity of defeating them if we wish a future of peace, prosperity and liberty for the world's children.

Posted by: Salamantis at May 24, 2007 11:37 PM

Winner=me. Failure=you. Me>you. Your quotes suck and I hope somebody stomps on your face.

Posted by: mikek at May 24, 2007 11:40 PM

After all, Israel itself depends economically on massive subsidies from the U.S. and Europe.

This is a lie. The Israeli economy is not subsidized by anyone. Israel has a strong, high tech economy that its neighbors can only dream of. Israel receives $2 billion in military aid from the U.S., which it would not need if it existed in a normal location. Israel receives no subsidies from Europe.

Posted by: MarkC at May 24, 2007 11:43 PM

mikek, it does no good to take the low road with trolls, for they can always go lower, and still remain themselves, which you cannot. It is better to take the high road with them, for they cannot meet you there unless they change.

Posted by: Salamantis at May 24, 2007 11:44 PM

Alphie,

If you were an Israeli, what would you propose your government do to bring about peace with the Palestinians?

Posted by: Zak at May 25, 2007 12:01 AM

Wise words, Salamantis.

You are soooo not going to ever be banned.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at May 25, 2007 12:46 AM

Things seem relatively peaceful now, Zak.

I think in the long run, Israel needs to take over Gaza, though. Having two Palestinian states seems unworkable for both sides.

A land swap deal on the west bank or some combo of buyouts plus immigration offers from other countries for the current population of Gaza seems doable.

Considering Gaza only has a little over 1 million residents, one year's worth of Iraq funding ($100 billion) would be plenty and the U.S. would no doubt be happy to foot the bill (and maybe even take in a large number of Gazans, too).

Posted by: alphie at May 25, 2007 01:10 AM

This is a complete digression, but to me one of the saddest things about the massive negative attention Israel receives in the media and elsewhere is the extent to which Israel has been forced into a sort of moral ghetto, where it has no meaning or existence apart from "the conflict". In this sense it very much resembles medieval anti-semitism, where Jews had no identity other than as killers of Christ, and were forced to wear their badge of shame for all to see. Does anybody care how many nobel prize winners Israel has produced? How many people know or care that 25% of the technology involved in making a telephone call was developed in tiny Israel? How many people know that the Intel pentium processor was developed in Israel?

Because the Alphie's of the world are set on demonizing Israel, so none of these things have any relevance. None of them enter into a definition of Israel as a country like other countries that have earned their place in the world, and whose faults can be judged in the proper degree and without reference to its "right to exist." In the left wing cosmology, Israel's very existence is a total and irremedial flaw, which is dealt with provisionally by keeping Israel in the ghetto, but which will only be finally resolved with Israel's eventual destruction, which, in the deepest, unconscious recesses of their minds, they are slowly preparing themselves for.

That is why the position of this Jewish physicist, Steven Weinberg, who is boycotting British universities, is such a welcome move. When the usual suspects weigh in against it, the Brits just laugh. It reinforces their prejudice to have Abe Foxman braying about anti-Semitism. But when a nobel laureate and one of the top scientific minds alive tells them to shove it up their ass, suddenly it's not so easy to trot out the sarcasm and self-righteous posturing. One can only hope that others with that kind of stature, Jewish and non-Jewish, follow his lead.

Posted by: MarkC at May 25, 2007 01:41 AM

Alphie;

You are conveniently not answering Zak's question. The absence of peace is not due to a lack of plans such as yours, whatever it's merits. There must be hundreds of such plans. I think the question was how to bring about an end to Palestinian attacks, and convince Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist and enter into peaceful negotiations, where any number of plans are possible.

Posted by: MarkC at May 25, 2007 01:51 AM

I don't think that's possible, Mark.

I think Isralis and Palestinians are both victims of a very poorly drawn map.

Peace negotiations, Palestinian elections, rocket attacks and responses, occupations and retreats are all wasted efforts...the map needs to be fixed.

Lines need to be redrawn and populations have to be moved and compensated for their trouble.

Imagine if you took a point where Syria, Jordan and Isreal meet and drew a line west. Everything above that line is now the new Palestine and Israel gets the West Bank and Gaza.

No more Israel-Lebanon border.

No more Israel-Syria border.

No more Gaza problem or West Bank problem.

Just one easy to defend border and a money problem.

How much will it take?

$100 billion?
$200 billion?
$500 billion?

A trillion?

Who cares, it's just money.

Posted by: alphie at May 25, 2007 02:09 AM

That assurance is much appreciated, Michael, especially coming from a perceptive and principled liberal such as yourself, whose balanced and nuanced work, and the risks that you take to bring it to us, I so greatly respect.

Since you called my words wise, I have one other snippet of wisdom to leave with people here tonight. It's not my own, but rather comes from Paul Ricoeur, a French hermeneutic phenomenologist, in a short book he wrote entitled Tolerance Between Intolerance and the Intolerable.

Although I recommend that all here should find and read it, the gist, as far as I can fathom, is as follows:

The one thing that tolerant people can never tolerate, at the cost of their own tolerant souls, is the intolerance of others. Once one begins to travel down such a slippery slope in pursuit of getting along in order to go along, it is but a small step to take to arrive at the position of passively acquiescing in the commission of the repressive acts that they take in order to enforce their biases, and just a further small step to embracing and aiding them, losing all pretense to personal tolerance in the process.

This rule applies whether one is presented with racist, sexist or homophobic jokes, or political or religious bigotry. One must not smile and nod, or even hold one's unsmiling silence, lest it be taken for acquiescence. One must instead speak out and take a steadfast stand against them, even at considerable personal cost, for such abominations tend to fester in malleable minds and rapidly intensify and spread unless they are firmly and vocally opposed.

Posted by: Salamantis at May 25, 2007 02:41 AM

Lines need to be redrawn and populations have to be moved and compensated for their trouble.

Wow, I can't believe that Alphie supports TRANSFER!!!

Start spreading the word in the Arab world - it might just work!

Posted by: Yafawi at May 25, 2007 04:25 AM

Well Yefawi,

I think Israel should do it unilaterally over a 10 year timespan...heavy on the carrots and light on the sticks at first.

I wrote the whole thing up on my little blog so I don't completely hijack Michael's.

Feel free to comment on or flame my plan.

Take a look please, Zak.

Posted by: alphie at May 25, 2007 04:41 AM

To paraphrase the musical/movie Amadeus, "one can but read such thoughts and think ...Alphie!".

Posted by: MarkC at May 25, 2007 05:31 AM

I taped our conversation with a digital voice recorder, as is routine for me lately. A young Israeli soldier took notes by hand at the same time. Perhaps it was her job to make sure I did not misquote the spokesman. Or maybe she was checking on him. It's hard to say. I didn't ask her why she recorded everything, and no one in the military ever told me I need to clear my work with any censors.

1. She is probably his subordinate. Hence you're right on your first assumption.
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Censor

The major knows passable English, but he chose to speak to me in Hebrew through a translator. I had hoped for an interview with an English-speaking officer. But none of the spokesman for the Southern Command are fluent in English.

A point for the IDF Media and PR Division to consider and improve upon.

Only Israeli journalists who write and broadcast in Hebrew showed much interest in the military confrontation in Gaza.

A point for the international media to consider and improve upon.

Posted by: Aviv at May 25, 2007 06:57 AM

Alphie,

I must say I'm stunned. I read your proposal and it is not at all what I had assumed your position might be. We might all have been a lot further along, much earlier, had you been less snarky and more direct previously.

Please don't take this the wrong way because your proposal implies a few things about your attitude toward Israel that I think would come as a surprise to those who have only read your comments to date, but your proposal is painfully naive. Again, I don't wish to insult you because, if you can honestly put forth that proposal, I suspect you are capable of gaining a more nuanced insight into the troubles faced by Israel and the difficulties they face in implementing a solution that is in the best interests of both parties.

Do you realize that Israel would likely accept that proposal in a heartbeat were it proposed by the Palestinians? Israel would like nothing more than a contiguous state with Jerusalem as its capital and the ability to return to Judea and Samaria. Do you also realize that there is no way on Earth that the Palestinians would agree to such a proposal, even if it gave them more land and a contiguous state? Not to mention the objections you would hear from the Arab states, particularly Lebanon? Moreover, the international community would go ape over the concept of population transfers (however appropriate it may have been deemed for Europe or India or other parts of the world in the past, or how humane the method used to implement it, or how fair the swap in land).

To be blunt, if Israel were to act unilaterally in the manner you propose, I suspect those you believe you are generally in agreement with would turn on you viciously and immediately.

Nevertheless, the mere fact that you would make the proposal suggests that you recognize Israel's right to exist, its right to maintain a Jewish character, that the so called right of return is not a human right, but a weapon to destroy Israel, and that Israel has legitimate security concerns, even if you downplay them or fail to recognize their full significance. Please take some time to do some more reading concerning the history of the region. jp has previously provided a number of excellent sources and many more can be provided upon request.

Moreover, please keep trying to maintain the more constructive tone. I believe you can learn a lot from the responses to your constructive posts and, even if such responses are insufficient to change your mind about opposing views, you will gain a greater and deeper insight into those with whom you disagree and may, at least, be able to find some common ground.

Posted by: IMFink'sPa at May 25, 2007 08:43 AM

sal,

i will reiterate what i've said so many times: the root of the problem is in the us/west's decay of the educational system: it does no longer teach values via classics, basics (history), independent critical thinking (logic). at the university level, it's mainly training for jobs (what prof. schools should do), political correctness and multiculturalism. it thus produces individuals who have no sense of who they are, uncurious, lack appreciation for factual evidence and knowledge, gullible, unable to reason, materialistic, shallow, obsessed with entertainment, who take their cues from a superficial, uninformed and commercialized media.

here's a piece which touches on this (requires free registration):

http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=article&article_id=2512

under these circumstances nobody should wonder about the so-called left and its lunacies.

Posted by: fp at May 25, 2007 09:08 AM

and here are some consequences:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3404286,00.html

Posted by: fp at May 25, 2007 10:02 AM

Is there an alphie filter I can turn on here? And any post that tries to argue with him?
Would be a neat feature.

Posted by: Jonorose at May 26, 2007 07:49 AM

IMFink'sPa,

Well said.

Posted by: Yafawi at May 26, 2007 11:50 AM