although seymour hersh is a respected and award winning journalist, and generally enjoy his articles, i have to agree with tony's assesment on this one. i think hersh this time got much of his info second or third hand. i still say he is a great journalist, but just as many journalists before him, he fumbled on this one.

Somebody still respects Sly Hersh? I gagging here. This man is famous for blindly advancing the agendas of his sources while ignoring the double-checking of his own staff.

Apparently Hersh has been doing the middle eastern version of the 'Grand Tour'- he also stopped off in Egypt.

Sandmonkey has a report- http://sandmonkey.org/ (top post as of Feb 28).

Teaser quote: "...I was wowed by this man's ability to verbally give every single member of the audience a handjob.

The linked bloggers seem to be quite partisan themselves.

How do we know they aren't simply advancing their own agendas?

How do we know Hersh isn't simply advancing his agenda?

buckeye, if "he fumbled on this one", when was the last time he crossed the line of scrimmage?

Christ!! (Sorry) but the middle east is as f-up as anything. Nobody in the west knows anything about shia vs. sunni let alone Lebanon's personal politics. At least Hersh is talking to military people with an in on the military aspect of it(of course he has an agenda, every one does even Mr. Totten who we need to rely on as "one" of our sources with interest in the Mid-East.). Read his stuff with a grain of salt, isn't that how we all try do digest mid-east info. God knows we don't get a straight answer from or current administrations or any previous.

Hersh has been a drainpipe for leaks, often false, from way back. He represents certain Establishment positions/opinions, which he pretends to convey as if his claims were anti-Establishment. Like most skilled propagandists [such as Edward Said], he supplies a smooth blend of fact and fiction. The factual part makes the fictional part more believable. That is, the fictional part obtains verisimilitude from the factual part, through its juxtaposition with the factual part. The whole, therefore, is plausible, if not true. And with Hersh, the whole is a blend of fact and fiction, as I said above. So it's no surprise that he "gets the story" wrong. He doesn't care about the truth. Hersh has been writing his "faction" from way back in the seventies, if not the sixties.

Thanks Michael for the plug. If I may explain to your readers what it is that I found most reprehensible about the piece. What Hersh is (willingly) engaged in here is classic circular journalism. He is fed disinformation by certain people (hence my emphasis on who his sources are: Hezbollah, Imad Moustapha, and sympathizers), who then quote back the disinformation they fed him after it's been "laundered" by Hersh and The New Yorker, giving it an air of credibility.

The point is that this is a battle that Hersh decided to be a part of as a water carrier for Hezbollah and the Assad regime. It's beyond irresponsible.

Seymour Hersh is repeating second hand theories? He visited Nasrallah, he has sources in the current administration. Stop believing that the US govt tells the truth, though proven liars, and everyone else lies.

While I hate to spoil your party, he actually doesn't have a source in the current govt. -- all his sources are "former" this or that, or better still, "government consultants."

And the point is not that he repeats second hand theories. The point is precisely is that he is uncritically repeating the theories fed to him by Hezbollah and functionaries of the Syrian regime.

Although, I'm afraid that you like Hersh have the same psychological issue which leads you to believe that if it's not the Bush administration, and if it's against the Bush administration, then it's believable, nay, "good!"

I can't help you there.

Occasionally, Hersh is accurate, but only in the sense that even a stopped clock reads correctly twice each day. That's not enough reason to keep the clock around rather than throw it in the trash.

Give me a break. These "takedowns" of Hersh are as far from factual and evidence-driven as can be imagined. They are, in short, rage and insult-driven blasts of hot air, largely without substance.

The first one basically consists of the author mocking Sy Hersh's sources as worthless because... becuase... um... they're all Iranian propagandists! Yes! Former US intelligence officials, all carrying water for Iran! And we can prove it! Oh, wait, we can't. We don't even try. Why? Because it's baloney.

What's revealing is what the "takedowns" don't even try to tackle: the basic point that the US is using Saudi Arabia to fund anti-Iranian clandestine groups. Now, maybe Sy Hersh doesn't have photographs and dead bodies from the Sunni fundamentalists groups that the US is helping Saudi Arabia fund in Lebanon. In other words, maybe he hasn't proved it. So what? He has sources on record, from people involved and knowledgeable, telling him that it's happening. Is he supposed to ignore it?

Tony's "evidence" to the effect of "The Siniora government can't be funding salafists, because they're arresting people from that same group backed by Syria" is no evidence at all. The Hersh article claims that the Siniora gov. was trying to bribe splinters of the group that broke off from Syria. There's no reason in the world why they wouldn't be arresting those who hadn't broken off.

I mean, who are we kidding? Did not this very effing blog claim months ago that the reason Nasrallah finally backed down was Siniora's very claim to him, "if you try to take the airport, I won't be able to control my followers?" Who do you think these bloodlust-crazed followers that intimidated Nasrallah are? Do you think the Saudis are not funding them? Seriously, who are we kidding? You make fun of Robert Baer and think that proves that he's wrong?

Mike, I find your judgement here to be extremely poor. Not neccesarily in posting critiques, but in your obvious presentation of them as "devastating takedowns". If I call you nasty names and make cracks about your monther for five pages, is that a "devastating takedown?"

The gist of the article is that the US is helping saudi arabia form clandestine, no-rules anti-Shiite groups - as one of a variety of anti Iran measures, as part of a broader policy of ditching the campaign against extremist Sunnis and focusing instead on Iran. Sy Hersh doesn't say directly, 'this is f*cking stupid', although it clearly is, at least for the American national interest. He just reports the facts. I'm still waiting for someone to claim that this isn't true. Anyone? No? Then do you have a problem with the article that I should actually care about, like its accuracy?

Because a takedown that basically whines about how the Bush adminstration is right, and Iran is evil and Sy Hersh doesn't spend enough time establishing how evil Iran is yada yada yada is no takedown.

And here we see it again in the comments.

The point is precisely is that he is uncritically repeating the theories fed to him by Hezbollah and functionaries of the Syrian regime.

So US government sources, and Saudi Arabian sources, former or otherwise, are all Hezbollahi propagandists, huh? Robert Baer's getting cash from Iran? Ya?

You're chutzpah is breathtaking. You're wildly overreaching, and you think that because you're knowledgeable, you can get away with it.

Glasnost, you just don't get it: whether Sly's reports are accurate or not, he is too unreliable to take seriously. He has a reputation for building superstructures upon shaky or nonexistent foundations. Personally, I'm not going to take the time to fact-check him yet again; he's just not worth it.

glasnost: Did not this very effing blog claim months ago that the reason Nasrallah finally backed down was Siniora's very claim to him, "if you try to take the airport, I won't be able to control my followers?" Who do you think these bloodlust-crazed followers that intimidated Nasrallah are?

Yes, Seniora said that. No, those people are not Sunni jihadists funded by the United States government.

There are militant Harirists in Lebanon. A huge majority of Sunnis are Harirists. There are also, separately, some very small and potentially dangerous Salafist groups, and some extreme Palestinian factions in the refugee camps. Hersh says we are funding them. This doesn't even pass the smell test. Do you actually believe this crap?

This is the same ridiculous propaganda broadcast every day by the Baath and Hezbollah. You may not be aware of it, but Tony and I are very much so.

Mike,

There's a lot of questions on a several levels here.

Yes, Seniora said that. No, those people are not Sunni jihadists funded by the United States government.

There are militant Harirists in Lebanon. A huge majority of Sunnis are Harirists. There are also, separately, some very small and potentially dangerous Salafist groups, and some extreme Palestinian factions in the refugee camps. Hersh says we are funding them.

I think what he said is that a) Saudi Arabia is funding them,
b) The Lebanese government may have funded, or been interested in funding, etc etc, some of them, while we fund the Lebanese government,
c) even if b) is not true, Sauds are funding them under the rubric of the anti-Iranian plan that the US and Sauds are jointly working on.

I have no idea if b) is true. If it was, it wouldn't be incredibly weird or unusual. Arguably garden-variety stupid, but not unusual. Look at who we've funded in Palestine. Israel practically started Hamas, and we funded Arafat for a decade.

When you compete with bad people for influence with bad people, you start to get involved in some questionable things. Carried to an extreme, you and the bad people you're competing against create a situation of generalized disaster with lots of blame-arguing but no fingerprints.

How do we know that the militant Harrirists and the militant salafists don't overlap? If you don't want to take Sy Hersh's word for it that they overlap, fine. But it's definitely true that we have no real idea who is and isn't being funded. And to claim his entire article ceases to exist and is somehow irresponsible for raising questions that no one is certain about is... partisan. It's certainly plausible, at the very least, that the Saudis are mucking around with these kinds of people. It's almost identical to winning Afghanistan by buying out the fundamentalist, but anti-Taliban warlords in the Northern Alliance.

There's an important issue here that Sy Hersh does the world a service by bringing up, and one that you, Mike should be responsive to and interested in: namely: what tangled webs are we going to weave for ourselves getting mixed up with Arab Sunni dictatorships trying while trying to contain Iran? I think the odds of us feeding money to someone who eventually tries to blow us up with it are very high. That doesn't mean we should do anything drastic. I didn't say we should stop funding Siniora. I'll say it here: let's fund Siniora. But must we scalp people for even bringing up what could possibly (um, more than possibly) go wrong while we do it?

The second question is that Sy Hersh raises that you should be interested in is, "what is the wisdom of, in attempting to take on detterable and limited threats from rising Shiite anti-us powers, bolstering Sunni fundamentalists who often surpass the Shiites in suicidal nihilism?

Even if that question isn't facing us in what we've already done, we're likely to face it soon.

I agree with Sandmonkey when he said:

You know, I am willing to listen and accept his version of how the americans are to blame for everything in the middle-east if he would just mention the other asshole players and assign them blame as well. I mean, yeah, the sunnis are asshole extremist fanatics and Saudi is filled with crazy wahabi and mutawaeen, but so are the Shia, and Iran has the religious police and almost executed a girl for killing someone who wanted to rape her. Yet somehow, in Hersh's world view, what Iran does is not a problem, the Saudis are.

Anyone who has ever read my blog or my comments knows that I'm not a fan of Saudi Arabia. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia (and every other nation around the world's relationship with Saudi Arabia) is problematic for many reasons, but it's mostly of concern because the proper blame for terrorism and terrorist support is never assigned to the oily rich KSA.

Hersh does the same thing when he doesn't assign proper blame to Iran and Hezbollah. He's aligning himself with bad people in an effort to fight bad people. (and the US government, which by the way, is not the only ally, worldwide, of the KSA)

Hersh is not just bringing this issue up, he's spinning it beyond the realm of reality, or as Sandmonkey says, "distort[ing] shit so well that he could disprove gravity."

..and no one is 'scalping' Hersh. He's being criticized.

Hersh is an example of what Edward Said meant when he railed against orientalists. He does not understand the nuances of the region, and is blinded by his hatred on the Bush administration (no lumninaries there either).

The bad thing about his "piece" is that it comes at a crucial moment when Lebanon is more than ever "in play". Then again, should the Syrians percieve his little work as a sign of US support, they are likely to miscalculate.. again.

"He is fed disinformation by certain people (hence my emphasis on who his sources are: who then quote back the disinformation they fed him after it's been "laundered" by Hersh and The New Yorker, giving it an air of credibility."

This is doubly hilarious, considering the source of the accusation. FDD, anyone? What's a perfect world? Only US and Israeli (or Kurdish) propaganda allowed? Do tell ...

Tony,

Just so you know, and I agree with some -- some -- of what you say, Hersh did have sources in the US government when he wrote the story. Some writers like to fact-check, others will like to cite the NYSun. What can I say.

I would add that calling a mouse a lion, while ignoring the two 800-pound gorillas in the room is called lying where I from.

I got nothing against propaganda -- go, FDD, go -- especially when it is smart, as yours usually is, but let's not feign the moral outrage, ok? Unless you want to compare pocketbooks, and I dont think your side would like too.

way ot, but I am reading Tom Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem,published circa 1989.Could anyone recommend an author or book that covers the time period 1975-1990 history of Israel and Lebanon that is more objective than Friedman?

Glasnost and some others above represent the harmful phenomenon of ignorant folk believing that they are knowledgeable.
1- for many years maybe still today the US and UK and France subsidized Saudi Arabia and other Arab oil exporting states by allowing their oil companies [ARAMCO in the US case] to pay extra money to these oil exporting countries [inc. KSA] through the Foreign Tax Credit Law [or similar laws in UK and France]. The Saudis were encouraged to impose a per barrel "oil income tax" in addition to smaller royalties. Thereby, ARAMCO could deduct these "oil income tax" payments to the Saudi royals from their US corporate income tax dollar for dollar, as a tax credit. That arrangement started in 1951. I have no idea when or if it ever stopped.
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/09/kindly-making-arabia-rich.html
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/09/what-does-left-really-mean-in-2005.html

2-- the carter administration, led by supposedly "realistic" hardheaded Zbig brzezinski, helped Khomeini take over Iran. Hence, Carter and Zbig bear some moral responsibility for the Hizbullah which is an outgrowth of the Khomeini regime in Iran.
3-- Hersh is a falsifier and propagandist from way back in the sixties. James Baker used Hersh ostensibly a "leftist" against Israel, which Baker hated and hates for various reasons, whether because Baker is loyal to oil or simply Judeophobic. Hersh was fed information and/or disinformation about Israel's nuclear program which he received apparently from CIA sources. At the time of Hersh's book, Samson Option, Robert Gates a friend of Baker, was head of the CIA.
Hersh lost credibility with his 1986 book "The Target Is Destroyed" which denied that the Soviet Union had shot down a Korean airliner in 1983 carrying 269 persons, including an American congressman, as I recall. The Soviets themselves demolished Hersh's argument and claim. It is significant that this book is not mentioned in Hersh's authorized biographies, as on Wikipedia.
Can glasnost conceive that "leftism" can be a cover for the opinions and positions promoted by certain Establishment factions? Was does it mean that Hersh drains into the public mind the leaks and info/disinfo that are poured into him from such as the CIA? Do you think that just because a book or theory seems plausible to you, or just because it fits your prejudices, that it is true?

I'm certainly more than willing to read a take-down of Hersh's article, but my snark-o-meter broke a third of the way thorough Tony's post, and I couldn't continue.

There are only so many scare quotes and exclamation marks after snide comments that can be embedded in something like that before they completely obscure the topic being discussed.

Hersh does the same thing when he doesn't assign proper blame to Iran and Hezbollah. He's aligning himself with bad people in an effort to fight bad people

Sure, Mary, that would be great, except for, and this is precisely my point, there's no rational way in which Seymour Hersh can be said to have "aligned" himself with Iran. That's how, no offense, scalpers think. If you find Seymour Hersh sending Iran money or plotting suicide bombings against the US, you can talk about "alignment" with Iran.

Until then, what he did was write an article discussing the risks and consequences, not to mention the moral implications, of a possible alignment with questionable sunni fanatics, in order to better put pressure on Iran.

Are these risks and consequences overblown? I don't know. I don't even know what the administration, or the Saudis, are doing, and I don't know much about the people they're doing it with. But these are definitely, given our history - and everyone's else's similar history in the ME, good questions to be asking.

My exact complaint about the mentality of, among other people, the automatic-hardliners here and everywhere else, is that you can't even write an article questioning the risks and consequences of some stupid action being taken to screw over the other guy, without being told you're working for them. That mentality leads to lemmings headed over cliffs.

Also, this is not a "blame America" or "criticize everything" dynamic, at least not from me. One question, one answer, "who's more likely to kill large numbers of americans in the next decade, Sunni fanatics or Shiite fanatics?", my answer, Sunni fanatics. Question, answer. Next question.

My exact complaint about the mentality of, among other people, the automatic-hardliners here and everywhere else, is that you can't even write an article questioning the risks and consequences of some stupid action being taken to screw over the other guy, without being told you're working for them.

I've found, in the last few years, that even showing insufficient rage when criticizing the bad guys is enough to get some people telling you that you're in bed with them.

It's not just the Middle East where America has funded groups that have caused problems for us later, glas.

We funded the Viet Minh during WWII, for example.

Look how that turned out.

Hersh is a lot like Noam Chomsky.

They are both academically dishonest and are propelled by bloated Jovian egos that seemingly conveys upon them the perception of an apparent ability to create fact from fiction.

DPU and Glasnost:

The problem with Hersh regurgitating the Hezbolah/Syrian propodanda about Senoria funding fundamentalist Sunni militants is that it is designed to discredit him in the eyes of both his current western allies and to his domestic audience. It is indeed ironic that Hersh and both of you (apparently) have swallowed the line of bull, put out by Nasarallah (a died in the wool fundementalist militant leader) and Assad (a fascist dictator) that the moderate, some would say timid, technocratic Senoria is aligning himself with Sunni fundementalists, who would be violently opposed to his largely secular, pro-western policies. Why would he bother doing such an incredibly risky thing when he could merely arm his own, more secular, Sunni followers?

On top of all this, Hersh admits that his theory, at least in part, came directly from the lips of Nasrallah. Otherwise, it is thinly and opaqely sourced, as Tony illustrated. Further, his article is filled with enough weasle words and qaulifications to make it clear that his other rather opaque sources are mostly just spinning. Otherwise, they would have provided Hersh with some type of verifiable evidence of the alleged financial support.

Face it guys, for the reasons set forth above, the Hersh theory doesn't pass the smell test. Can either of you articulate a reason why you have given it any credence?

Sure, Mary, that would be great, except for, and this is precisely my point, there's no rational way in which Seymour Hersh can be said to have "aligned" himself with Iran. That's how, no offense, scalpers think. If you find Seymour Hersh sending Iran money or plotting suicide bombings against the US, you can talk about "alignment" with Iran.

So, how can the United States or the Lebanese government be said to have aligned with Saudi Arabia? Have they plotted any suicide bombings?

And, as far as sending money goes, give me the name of one country that doesn't send money to Saudi Arabia. Name one person who doesn't send them money. You send money to Saudi Arabia. (Not that I'm accusing you of anything)

In any case, as far as Hezbollah, Iran and Hersh's extortion tactics go, there's this, described by Tony:

Although, I must admit, I can never make up the kind of stuff given to Hersh by Robert Baer. I mean who else could've provided this gem: "we’ve got Sunni Arabs preparing for cataclysmic conflict, and we will need somebody to protect the Christians in Lebanon. It used to be the French and the United States who would do it, and now it’s going to be Nasrallah and the Shiites."

Yeah, let the militant Khomeinist Islamist group -- who burned tires and blocked roads and attacked Christian neighborhoods after a program on a Christian TV station satirized their leader -- be the "protector" of the Christians! Why didn't I think of that one!? Hell, let's also make Moqtada Sadr's Mehdi Army the "protector" of Christians in Iraq too! Sometimes I wonder if Hersh's articles, and this type of quotes, isn't just dark humor, or The Onion-style writing. Yet it's not a joke. This too is part of the Syrian and Hezbollah propaganda. That the "crazies" are the Sunnis, who are the real threat to the Christians. Hezbollah, on the other hand, is disciplined, pure, not seeking an Islamic state, etc. This is how Michel Aoun is trying to sell his unnatural alliance with Hezbollah to the Christians as well.

Scalping is small time - the big money is in protection. Ask Hezbollah and Hersh.

Mary, I didn't see it that way before, but I think you're right!

Hersh is a lot like Noam Chomsky...They are both academically dishonest

No, I don't think Hersh pretends to be an academic. When I caught Chomsky in a linguistic fib once (a key word in an article meant different things in different English-speaking cultures, and the article was intended for both - something he, of all people, knew distorted the essay) he replied it was "all part of the game".

I'm afraid that the only explanation for Chomsky's actions is that he has a need to feed his ego. He was a great linguistics student, and later was considered a fine linguistics theorist. Having reached the highest level possible academically, the only way to propel his ego even higher was to attack his own culture and enjoy the attention generated.

Sy Hersh is a pipsqueak by comparison.

I might have agreed with the simile of Mr. Hersh being right as often as the broken clock. Yet in his case, for example the hour hand is frozen.

Just two years ago Mr. Hersh was predicting, on CNN and in the NY Times, imminent covert and overt military action against Iran. That Iran was crawling, via secret orders of Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, with SEALS, Green Berets, Delta, and Brownies all mapping Iran's nuclear facilities. And at that time his sources were unimpeachable military and spook-types in the know.

Pat,

Unless, of course, Hersh's warnings caused the people who wanted to attack Iran to change their plans.

Look at Hersh's track record on Iran...None of the things he predicted has come to fruition. He does not have any credibility left and the Liberals still take his word as a gospel.
Dont' even waste your computer "ink" on him.

Face it guys, for the reasons set forth above, the Hersh theory doesn't pass the smell test. Can either of you articulate a reason why you have given it any credence?

If you read my comment, you'll notice I said nothing about the Hersh article one way or the other. What makes you assume that support its point of view?

Look at Hersh's track record on Iran.

And look at his track record on Iraq.

Do you really want to do that double?

I don't want to waste Totten's bandwith, but it would be fun to collect as much Hersh as we can. We should start with Iraq and laugh our way back to the sixties.

david:

"What's a perfect world? Only US and Israeli (or Kurdish) propaganda allowed? Do tell ... "

When in doubt, blame it on the Joooooos ...

Intelligent response, Gary. You are right. I always forget that the governments of Israel and the United States are the only countries in the history of the world that do not engage in propaganda. Why do I do that? Maybe because I am not a racist ... The FDD speaks for itself.

Mark:

Thanks for sticking to logic.

Face it guys, for the reasons set forth above, the Hersh theory doesn't pass the smell test. Can either of you articulate a reason why you have given it any credence?

What is the "Hersh theory?" To say that the article is built on the paragraph related to who the Siniora government may or may not be funding is an exaggeration. There's also the question raised as to who the Saudis are funding under the broad rubric and permissive outline of "let's git some anti-Shiite ground troops going." Is it supposed to be beyond the pale to imagine that Saudis funding.. Sunni fanatics in Lebanon? Like they do everywhere else? And getting a free pass from this notoriously politically blinkered Admin?

As for the question of the Siniora government: I don't see Hersh claiming that Siniora is a salafist. But frankly, I have no idea who he - and more importantly - anyone vaguely related to his government, meaning basically a random cross-section of entire Sunni community in Lebano - might be funding. Your assumptions here personalize the entire Siniora government to the man himself. In doing so, you're oversimplifying. Badly.

Do I think it's plausible, that through various chains of events and responsibility, people who want to blow up Americans are getting money from America in Lebanon, or getting money from the Saudis under the political cover of a US-Saudi anti-Iranian program? I sure as hell do.

Would I go even further and say that it's plausible that the - to quote you "moderate.. some would say timid... technocratic" Siniora is deliberately looking to buy off /recruit Sunni fanatics? I'm not making that accusation, but sure, it's deliberately plausible. If you're a moderate technocrat and there are loose cannons in your country, a country like Lebanon, and your control is weak, that's what you do with loose cannons: buy them off. You do it to keep them out of Syrian hands. Or to try to.

It may (or may not) make sense for the government of Lebanon. Whether it makes sense for the U.S. government is another question. Hey, maybe it does. After all, someone like going to point out any minute that a liberal like me wouldn't support going after them with Predator strikes, right? (Maybe, maybe not). But the point is, it's a question that can and should be raised. All S.H. has done is raised it. It's something the spotlight should indeed be on.

Oh, and regarding sources, Tony cherry-picked. There was some useful opposing context and a lot of smack-talk, but he hardly proved that Hersh's ideas are wrong. He didn't, for example, discredit the "Siniora's government official in Lebanon", nor could he, as the guy has no background to smear.

People who think as follows
"Person we don't like says it (Nasrallah)" = FALSE
are lemmings. Led over cliffs. Now, am I saying that whatever the specifics of Nasrallah's saying are absolutely true? Of course not. Neither is Sy Hersh. Obviously. Very obviously. But hey, here's a thought folks: sometimes people push certain lines of accusation because they genuinely believe that they're likely to turn out true.

It's going to be very challenging to pump money into Lebanon, especially when competing with the Syrians to do so, and keep it out of the hands of people trying to blow up Americans. Period. No matter who's in charge of Lebanon, and even if Siniora was the love child of Mother Teresa and Charles De Gaulle.

Glasnost,

The most intelligent response I have seen to Hersh's article is an anonymous post on the Landis blog. It is free of Hersh's ignorant missteps and Tony's hyperventilation.

Check it out: http://joshualandis.com/blog/?p=179

I don't want to waste Totten's bandwith,..

Bandwidth is there for exactly this purpose. If you have a collection of things that Hersh has gotten wrong in the past, then I would like to see it. If you don't, or don't feel like collecting such information, it shouldn't be blamed on concern for Michael's bandwidth.

... but it would be fun to collect as much Hersh as we can. We should start with Iraq and laugh our way back to the sixties.

Again, I would be eager to see some blunders. As I recall, most of his articles have been relatively well researched, and many have been retroactively proved accurate.

Again, I would be eager to see some blunders.

When you read Hersh's interviews at "Democracy Now" he sees far more radical than when under the control of the editors at the New Yorker. And a quick scan for "blunders" reveals one where he is determined that Iran provides no material support to insurgents in Iraq. He then contradicts himself in a subsequent interview.

"Iran is keeping all options open as anybody rationally would. They are in contact with the Ba’athists and they certainly Know. . . You know, there's no worry in Iran about the fact that the insurgency isn't working. But the notion that they would be actively involved is -- in terms of supplying communication gear and weapons and bases is way over the top"
12/9/2003
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/09/162219&mode=thread&tid=25

"One of the concerns being we were ignoring the fact that Iranian -- Iranians were coming across the border and helping the resistance to organize. No Iranian was taking any offensive action against America. They were simply helping their allies who were against us, to organize as I said."
6/22/2004
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/22/148253&mode=thread&tid=25

But hey, here's a thought folks: sometimes people push certain lines of accusation because they genuinely believe that they're likely to turn out true.

So Hersh is making stuff up in the present, but he may be proto-correct in the FUTURE!, like Nostradamus or Miss Cleo..

Mertel, I don't see much that is contradictory in those statements. But I'm less interested in his interviews than in his articles. The articles are presumably researched, an article is what is being discussed here, and interviews are off-the-cuff and prone to interpretation.

Glasnost:

The anonymous, but seemingly very knowledgeable, commentator over at Landis cite (see david's 7:25 a.m. link above) seems to agree with my intuitive analysis. However, given the specificity of his post, he seems to base his conclusions on his intimate familiarity with the various militant Lebanese factions.

He writes: "Fourth, Hersh is wrong to assert that there is an official (but undeclared) Lebanese policy of supporting Sunni extremist groups as a way to counter Hezbollah. The allegations that Siniora's government is courting Sunni radicals disregards the simple fact that these guys don't want to deal with the government (Saab is right to write: "1- these groups are very serious about their salafist jihadist ideology: the pro-American Lebanese government is an agent of the US-Zionist alliance and must be fought, period."

He further asserts, addressing the theory that the ISF is becoming the new Sunni militia, that: "the the ISF is not a militia (yet?), is still underequipped (except for their poweful cars) and ill-trained, and opposition fears might be overstated (but should certainly be addressed)." As the head of a government with access to large sums of money, it would seem far less risky for Senoria to build up the loyalist Sunni dominated portions of the Lebanese security forces than to build up far less controllable militant groups (which also harbor radically different political agendas).

Your point that some portion of U.S. covert money could find its way into the hands of U.S. opponents merely seems to restate the obvious. Misdirection is an inherent risk of any covert program in which resources are funneled to allies since such aid is typically both "secret" and being channeled into relatively insecure regions. For these reasons, it is unlikely that a team of government auditors will be able to trapse around Lebanon (or any other sensitive country) ensuring that not a single dime (or bullet) of such resources are misdirected to U.S. opponents. This misdirection risk is also equally born by all other actors in Lebanon as witnessed by the Lebanese government's recent confiscation of a large shipment of Hezbollah's weapons.

I don't see much that is contradictory in those statements

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.

I'm less interested in his interviews than in his articles

The interviews are illuminating precisely because they are off the cuff and unedited and reveal his profound bias. Given that his articles are mostly based on hearsay and un-named, mysterious sources, his personal agenda and bias provide a crucial context without which it is impossible to digest his articles.

OK... now I know why DPU wanted to focus attention away from Hersh's interviews. Check out this revealing article:

Sy Hersh Says It’s Okay to Lie (Just Not in Print)

OK... now I know why DPU wanted to focus attention away from Hersh's interviews.

That seems more than a little paranoid. I have read little of Hersh, and I haven't seen the article you link to.

I said I was less interested in his interviews for the reasons I stated, and those alone. Speculating on the motives that you imagine drives others reveals more about your own mental workings than you might think.

Calm down, DPU. I can assure you I have absolutely no interest in any of your motives. My comment was tongue-in-cheek.

The article is interesting because it confirmed my suspicions that Hersh is heavily restrained by the New Yorker editors, and removal of that restraint reveals something of a radical. I'll certainly be reading anything further of his with a lot more skepticism.

Anyway, at least we found all those factual blunders you were looking for. Some highlights:

In 1981, while he was working on his Kissinger book, Hersh wrote a 3,000-word, front-page retraction in the Times as penance for having mistakenly named Edward M. Korry, the former U.S. ambassador to Chile, as a collaborator in the CIA-backed 1973 coup.

...his next book, 1991’s The Samson Option: Israel’s Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy, relied heavily on a source whom Hersh later characterized in an interview as a liar.

...after the publication of The Dark Side of Camelot in 1997, Hersh’s reputation took another dip. The reviews of Hersh’s singularly tumescent account of the Kennedy presidency were savage. Gail Collins wrote in The Nation that Hersh’s book on JFK was “best read as a sort of journalistic tragedy.”... More damaging than the book’s critical reception were revelations that Hersh had fallen for a set of forged Kennedy documents....

Thank you, those were more in the nature of what I was looking for.

You don't have to get far into Hersh's article to see that he intends to distort the facts to fit his theory. He begins with the claim that the Bush administration has shifted to a new policy designed to undermine Iran.

What is his proof of this? Well, first he offers this statement:

The new American policy, in its broad outlines, has been discussed publicly.

Reading this, I think: oh, the Bush administration has publicly acknowledged a change in policy. But look what Hersh gives us next as an example of the "American policy being discussed publicly":

In testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in January, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that there is “a new strategic alignment in the Middle East,” separating “reformers” and “extremists”; she pointed to the Sunni states as centers of moderation, and said that Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah were “on the other side of that divide.” (Syria’s Sunni majority is dominated by the Alawi sect.) Iran and Syria, she said, “have made their choice and their choice is to destabilize.”

Secretary Rice may indeed have disclosed a "new Administration policy" in her testimony, but the above is certainly not such a disclosure. It is at most a description of a new situation in the middle east as Secretary Rice sees it. It says nothing about a new administration policy. If Hersh wishes to claim that the new policy has been discussed in public, he should provide some direct quotes demonstrating that.

Hersh repeats this pattern in the next paragraph. He says:

A senior member of the House Appropriations Committee told me that he had heard about the new strategy, but felt that he and his colleagues had not been adequately briefed.

Oh, so Congress has heard about it, but hasn't been "adequately briefed"? Look what comes next:

“We haven’t got any of this,” he said. “We ask for anything going on, and they say there’s nothing. And when we ask specific questions they say, ‘We’re going to get back to you.’ It’s so frustrating.”

If he has heard about this new policy, why does he say "We haven't got any of this"?

Why is Hersh the only one using the phrase "new policy"?

But wait, Hersh has more proof:

The new strategy “is a major shift in American policy—it’s a sea change,” a U.S. government consultant with close ties to Israel said. The Sunni states “were petrified of a Shiite resurgence, and there was growing resentment with our gambling on the moderate Shiites in Iraq,” he said. “We cannot reverse the Shiite gain in Iraq, but we can contain it.”

It's true because a government consultant says so? One whose name Hersh cannot provide?

I detest this kind of writing. I submit that I could "prove" almost any alleged policy on the part of the administration in this fashion. By using selective quotes from unnamed sources, I could make a case that the Administration perpetuated 9/11 as a pretext to ___________________ (fill in the blank with your favorite conspiracy theory).

The only people persuaded by this kind of writing are those that wish to believe its conclusions for other reasons.

This has been a civil debate, thanks to all.

David, that's a fantastic blog and an excellent article. Mark, I note you quoting from there as well. You missed this part:

Third, Hersh has a point when he says that people linked to Hariri have dealings with Sunni radicals. Hariri politicians have tried to manage and manipulate (as necessary) Sunni radicalism. They sometimes succeeded, sometimes failed. They have bailed out the Denniye prisoners, claiming that the 2000 clashes were fabricated by Syrian intelligence (this is a baseless claim). It is a game of trying to outsmart and buy off the radicals, but that there is no guarantee of success (Sunni militants are growing more radical and more emboldened), and the consequences of failure are disastrous.

But guess what? Hariri is far from being the only one to play this game. In the North, Karame, Mikati and Safadi do it too, as does former Defense Minister Mrad in the Bekaa. Karame, Mikati and Mrad are aligned with Syria, have supported Sunni radical groups in the past, and are still involved in manipulating them. Most notably, Mikati is the one who brought back Sheikh Hashem Minkara (a Sunni fundamentalist who opposed Syria in the 1980s) from his Syrian jail to Lebanon during the Summer 2000 elections in order to win the votes of Sunni Islamists - with Syrian blessing.

In fact, reading over that whole thing, the base position is that, yes, elements in the current government are, or may be, competing to buy out various elements of the Salafists, but no one is certain, it's probably not going to work, and so is everyone else, including Hizballah themselves and Syria. None of this surprises me.

As for Hersh's factual blunders over his career, I personally don't care. Everyone makes them. Whether or not Hersh makes more or less than average is not a topic I'm interested in. I don't hold the man in sainthood: I'm interested in this specific article, and other than misspelling one name, I have yet to see any incorrect facts. Some people have raised information contrary to the picture, and that's fine, but not exactly a definitive disproof. (For example, Siniora's throwing some of Fateh al-Islam in jail does not disprove allegations of trying to buy others off).

Some people don't like the anonymous sources. It's a popular complaint, and frankly, a tired one. When the White House stops ruining careers for speaking out about a policy, sources can stop quoting off-record.
When the right wing is out of the White House and Democrats can ruin people's careers again, I look forward to a deluge of anonymous complaints about said Democrat's 'pro-terrorist' policies, quoted like the Bible from all the same people who don't like anonymous sources now.

Mark, as for the logical objections to whether or not anyone in Siniora's government is working with any fundamentalist Sunnis, they sound reasonable. They're not definitive either. Such people would hate Siniora as an American puppet? Maybe. Hamas supposedly hates our guts, but they'll still take our money. As for it making more sense to build up the security forces... well, sure. My personal opinion is, yes, I don't think Siniora himself is interested in developing Islamic fundamentalists.
However, I have no idea if he would try to buy off ones already there in order to keep pacify them. Or if anyone in his gov. with hands on money might not sympathize with them. Or, hell, if Syrian agents infiltrating his system might buy them off purely to have it leak and embarass him. For exhibit A, please see Abbas in Palestine, this time with our tacit acceptance.
I don't think the Hersh article proves anything.

But I think it puts forward possibilities and raises questions that some one ought to be keeping an eye on. I think that's what journalism is for, and I think it was an acceptable, even valuable, piece of journalism, whether his sources are ultimately correct or not. Again, whether they are or not, if they weren't concerned about the very real potential for trouble, they wouldn't be speaking out.

If Nasrallah is making the same accusations as Hersh's suggestions, that's unfortunate. Better make sure he's wrong.

So, I finished where I started: the "takedowns" of Hersh were no more definitive than he was, and had a whole lot of attitude for basically no justifiable reason. Just a lot of axes to grind against hersh and a lot of not liking the idea of Siniora's gov competing for salafists which, nonetheless, remains plausible.
Is there even a better choice?

Glasnost,

I hope you are not reading this blog to learn about the Middle East and what is going on there.

David:

"Intelligent response, Gary. You are right. I always forget that the governments of Israel and the United States are the only countries in the history of the world that do not engage in propaganda. Why do I do that? "

I was just cheerfully calling attention to the fact that you took a gratuitous shot at Israel (and the US and the Kurds) in a thread where it wasn't even under discussion. That's always a dead giveaway ...

I accuse you of antikurdism.

Just popping in to remind everybody that terrorist propagandists are banned from posting on this blog. All such comments are deleted, as are comments which make reference to those comments.

I would like to let such comments stand because they do have some educational value. But whenever I have let them in the past, my comments section has invariably been hijacked and derailed. The direction and content of the discussion ends up under the control of Hezbollah propagandists, and this is not acceptable.

Anyway, the person whose comments were deleted this time around (just now) has been formally banned already. Comment deletion is a necessary part of the ban enforcement.

Ye ye whatever, all you do is chat shit. All I did was post an article which I made by collecting a number of comments formally and officially made by different persons.

They were not intended for any 'educational' or 'propaganda' or 'brainwashing' means or whatever you like to call them. I just did it because i thought it was interesting.

Anyways, talking about this seymour hersh guy, he's one of the greatest journalists to live. Your kinds of peoplebelieve in an imaginary 'Shi'a cresent' which was dreamed up by King Abdullah (king play station 2) simply because he's a sunni. If there is a shi'a cresent, so whatt! It would mean the rest of the moon is sunni.

This shows the totalitarian ideology of the sunni extremists who want to share power with no-one but themselves and families. I present every single arab government as an example. All have kings and the most important jobs and bussinesses are run and owned by the same family as the monarchs'.

Anyways, you believe that bullcrap coming out of the mouth of a sorry ass, illegitimate king who doesn't know the number of his own population, but you don't believe the writting of your fellow white man whose stories, sources and viewes are checked and double checked by the editorial chiefs of the new yorker magazine! I mean, what seymour hersh is saying today is nothing different from what alot of arab analysts have been saying for a long time - the only difference being he's not an arab...and that more people senior to the west are finding out.

Take for example the iranian-contra scam that was uncovered. Everybody that heard it dismissed it as if it's total non-sense, until it was proven fact. Then the british-saudi corrupt arms deal. These are just two of the many many flaws of the US's and wests' policies towards the rest of the world.

Oh please! What we have here are the same people that were saying the Abu Ghraib story that Hersh broke was bullshit, and you were wrong about that too, and Hersh's reporting was proven sadly accurate. You'd be the same fools back in the late 1960s denying the My Lai massacre until the photos got published.

As it were, MJT was working interference for the Abu Ghraib scandal, saying he would prefer what was happening at Abu Ghraib over the apochryphal "plastic shredders" and "rape rooms" that were the fictitious figments of imagination of US military propagandists, but that MJT bought uncritically. He was still quoting this nonsense even after it had been discredited.

Oops!

Seymour Hersh has this little thing called CREDIBILITY. You see, Hersh has a track record of reporting well-researched stories that actually turn out to be unequivocally true (if he didn't, he'd probably be running a blog like this). It's not just arrogant for the nobody's here to be pulling their naysaying out of their ass, it's downright ignorant, and demonstrates a certain tragic inability to accept reality.

Sad.

Just popping in to remind everybody that terrorist propagandists are banned from posting on this blog. All such comments are deleted, as are comments which make reference to those comments.

Every time I see something like this, I check to see if my comments are still around. But I continue to fall within the umbrella of tolerated dissent, Yay!

Don't worry, glasnost, you are not anywhere near my to-ban list.

Actually, no one is on my to-ban list right now.

Bravo to Andrew's Johnson for telling it like it is.

Seymour Hersch, a world-renowned pullitzer-prize winning journalist of impeccable credibility and credentials and reputation, has published an article which contains facts that a nobody blogger (Michael J. Totten) and his fellow Hariri-Sanioura-groupie-fan-club just can't swallow.

Time to re-evaluate, groupies. You are coming dangerously close to a schizophrenic-type break with obvious reality.

One additional thought... What does the truth exposed by Herch mean? When the crap is stripped off of it, what is its essential thrust?

The answer: The United States does not give a shit about Lebanon. The United States doesn't care if there is civil war in Lebanon, as long as the most popular and most nationalistic figures in Lebanon are kept out of power. The United States is not interested in building democracy in Lebanon. The United States is interested in promoting it's own self-perceived "interests" at the expense of democracy and stability.

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