It's a very good video. It's a shame the rest of Iraq isn't going as well as Kurdistan - we could have already pulled out.

I watched the whole thing. finally, the MSM is covering the "success story" of this war. I loved it when the kurdish guy told the reporter that "NO" American soldier has died in their territory., and there are only 60 American soldiers stationed in the area.

I have a Kurdish friend who says that there are many many Kurdish families that keep George Bush's picture in their homes. Next to Israel, now kurds are the true American friends in the area.

It seems that everything goes back to regionalism here. However, what they don't note is that the Peshmerga is famously brutal when it comes to agitators.

If Iraq is to take a lesson from Kurdistan, it's to give no quarter to your enemy and expect none.

Berkeley comrade:

Your point?

Actually the Iraq of your presumed idol Baathist Georgie Galloway's effusive adulations has in the past shown the Peshmerga and all of the Kurds precisely just what to expect from the Arabs.

I don't seem to recall Saddam and his nazis having in the past shown any quarter to the Kurds.

It is quite amazing how facts or logic don't seem to have any basis in the dreadfully predictable drivel of islamonazi-comrade coproductions.

ankhfkhonsu, I doubt I'm the only person scratching my head at what you just wrote.

I've obviously misinterpreted what I thought was a shot at the Kurds and assumed an animus that was perhaps not there.

ankhfkhonsu, no harm no foul. I have no personal or political animus towards the Kurds, just commenting on what I've heard/been told/researched. Mostly on what the media doesn't say: Brutality may have won the day in northern Iraq.

That's verbotten.

The Kurds themselves are an example of how to salvage a free society out of the middle of hell. I really don't know how they do it.

Brutality may have won the day in northern Iraq.

I'm not sure what you mean. A people's army fought a slave army and won with American air cover. There were no Hama-style massacres of Arabs or anything like that.

1. There was one other point that was slightly stretched. It is not true that for an American reporter to walk down any street in "any other part of Iraq" without a flak jacket and hired guards is "suicidal." There are places where that is true, but it is by no means universally true.

2. Kurdistan does have internal political divisions (represented by parties like the PUK, PDK, etc.), and in the past there has even been bloodshed between these groups. The current stability and success enjoyed by the Kurds are a testament to the Kurds' desire to seize their current opportunity, and to their sensible willingness to bridge their political divisions in the face of that opportunity.

While this behavior seems sensible and natural, we have only to look around the world at Gaza, Lebanon :-( and the rest of Iraq to understand that simple sanity can never be taken for granted.

3. The fate of Kurdistan, and the Kurds' love for the US, will likely hinge on the ability of the US and the Kurds themselves to allay the fears of Turkey, whose population is 20% Kurdish.

Michael,

That's a very strong endorsement for the 60 Minutes doc. Sadly, Meganet's gotten even worse since you left (like my not being able to access blogger, ever). The connection's too slow. I'll have to watch it at an internet cafe, or something.

The Kurds are brutal. They were brutal to each other. Thank God, they've found peace with one another, and have realized that strongarm politics is not as effective as a strong state with a liberal agenda. The Barzani transformation is truly incredible. Michael, you should write a book about your experiences with the Kurds. Michael Howard would be a better person to write Barzani's autobiography.

Nice piece! Kurdistan looks like a shining example of what basically every country in the middle east could look like (actually looks alot like Turkey) if they embraced democracy, or am I going a little far with that? Is it functioning as a democracy? Is there any dissent?

(Do they have their own Mobile Telephone network? I smell an opportunity! How do they feel about doing business with Israeli companies?)

"How do they feel about doing business with Israeli companies?"

Given the fact that they compared their
relationship with US to that of Israelis, does not look like they'd mind. Then again. It's Middle East. One can never know.

...your presumed idol Baathist Georgie Galloway's effusive adulations...

I'm often amazed at the insight that some are able to delve here on these internets based on just a few words from their presumed ideological opponents.

MJT: I'm not sure what you mean. A people's army fought a slave army and won with American air cover.

I can't speak for BNC, but he may be referring to the situation in Kurdish prisons.

Michael, have you read the piece by Christopher de Bellaigue in the NYRB? It certainly seems to back up what has already been said here.

'If you visit the Kurdish federal region in Iraq, with its own president, parliament, and flag, you may come away, as I did, with the impression that it is on the way to independence. '

I'd be interested to read what you think

MJT,

While I am stuck in the Continental US, all my stories are anecdotal (And I know the plural of anecdote is not data). I have heard rumblings of brutal treatment of agitators and dissidents by the Peshmerga.

I'm not talking about the independence movement for Kurdistan, that follows your rubric perfectly, I'm talking about the maintenance of security.

If this is wrong, I'm more than willing to be rebuked, it's just what I've heard so far.

Illegal detentions, torture, kidnapping, and other abuses by Kurdish security forces have been mentioned in various human rights organizations recently, but it has also been noted that Kurdish authorities have taken some positive steps toward dealing with these problems.

The real test of the nature of their society will be how the Kirkuk problem is resolved. And so far, so good. Knock on wood.

I saw this segment last night online and couldn't help but be moved by the progress that has been made in Iraqi Kurdistan both towards reconstruction and regional autonomy. Unfortunately, it also seemed to gloss over some particularly troubling details.

Prior to the 2003 invasion, the rival Kurdish factions of the KDP, headed by now Kurdish PM Barzani, and the PUK, headed by Iraqi president Talabani, were at each other's throats. Notably, in 1996, the KDP was actively assisted by the Iraqi military in its war against the PUK. Divisions in the region are further complicated by long-time support of the KDP by Turkey, PUK by Iran, and PKK (in Turkey) by Ba'athist Iraq.

While I am an ardent supporter of Kurdish autonomy if not complete political independence (if such a settlement could ever be negotiated without infuriating Turkey), I can't imagine that all these divisions simply disappeared in 2003. Without a common Arab enemy to unite against, I am afraid they may quickly resume killing one another!

Michael, perhaps you have a deeper insight here?

"I'm often amazed at the insight that some are able to delve here on these internets based on just a few words from their presumed ideological opponents."

You are absolutely right. I was clearly over the top and in general, it is a valid point.

I just spoke with someone who works for the UN in Erbil, and I'm not sure what, if any bias there is as a result of her employment, but she said that despite all the enthusiastic economic activity, there is a palpable tension that is just beneath the surface, that the whole thing could erupt again.

jonorose: Is it functioning as a democracy? Is there any dissent?

It is a democracy of sorts, yes. I'd call it a conservative democracy rather than a liberal democracy -- and, yes, I'm just making up terms here. It's what you get when you merge authoritarian/tribal/clan politics with democracy.

They have two major parties and some minor parties. So there are clearly outlets for "dissent."

The Kurds are learning as they go, though, and still have issues. When I was in Erbil a journalist was put in prison for calling Barzani a pimp in a newspaper column. He was released after a few weeks, and it was clear during those few weeks that the KDP didn't really know how to handle the situation. They weren't used to this sort of thing and reacted very stupidly. They got a lot of crap for it and did the right thing in the end and let the guy go. It's not a police state there by any means, but they are still learning how democrats are supposed to behave.

Do they have their own Mobile Telephone network?

They have two, Korek and Asiacell.

How do they feel about doing business with Israeli companies?

I don't know. But I do know the Kurds are at least as pro-Israel as Americans are. For three reasons.

Israelis quietly helped them against Saddam. They, like the Israelis, have a problem with Arab Nationalism. And they are offended that the Palestinians address statelessness with terrorism. The Kurds are stateless like the Palestinians, and they never massacred Arab civilians to get what they want. The PKK in Turkey kills Turkish civilians, and the Kurds of Iraq don't support them for that reason. They compare the PKK with the PLO and say those kinds of politics are for losers. They are certainly right about that.

Zellmad: Without a common Arab enemy to unite against, I am afraid they may quickly resume killing one another!

I very seriously doubt it. The civil war they fought was waged between leaders of the PUK and the KDP rather than people. It was not like the sectarian violence in Arab Iraq. It was a stupid tribal thing for control of resources. Everyone agrees it was stupid. Something like 3,000 people were killed over a period of a couple of years. That's pretty minor, really.

So what is the relationship like these days between Barzani and Talabani? Have the PUK and KDP really resolved their differences? Michael, thanks for you insight as always.

Minorities in the arab world are dhimmis. Logically they should appreciate the Israelis, from whom they can learn a lesson. Many e.g. the kurds do; others become psychological dhimmis, just as many westerners and even jews do.

The difference between kurds and paestinians is that the former have a shared culture and ethnicity which translate into national cohesion. The latter AS SUCH do not. They are simply arabs who used to live in what were Syria, Egypt and Jordan. The concept of palestinians was invented as an anti-israel device -- THAT'S the real basis of cohesion. That's also why the kurds care more about setting up a nation, while the palestinians more about destroying israel.

Take Israel out and I very much doubt that they will do anything like the kurds are doing now.

Why can't Canada produce politicians of Sam Johnson's integrity, vision, toughness and intelligence.
How do we end up with such mealy mouthed weeneies?

Sam Johnson of Texas was a pilot who flew something like 90 combat missions in Korea and Vietnam. He was shot down over North Vietnam and spent seven years as a POW, most of that time in solitary confinement. He returned to the U.S. in 1973 and was elected to Congress in 1991.

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/016816.php

Absolutely right on the money!

Without the Americans, the Sunni said, kidnappers and killers who have terrorized Sunni Muslims in the Shiite-dominated area would resurface. Drawing his index finger across his neck in a slicing motion, he indicated what happened to Sunnis when U.S. forces were not around.

But when U.S. Army Spc. Rany Grizz pressed the man for details, he encountered one of the most stubborn enemies facing American and Iraqi forces attempting to carry out the latest security crackdown in violence-racked Baghdad: Iraqis* paralyzing fear and distrust of virtually everyone, including the Iraqi army, their next-door neighbors and their own relatives... **
===

No wonder! With Ahmadinejad*s well paid agents working through Al Sadr*s killer blackshirts, death walks everywhere, invisible, amoung the people.

A US pullout from Iraq is immoral and more costly than enduring and doing the difficult but correct thing there.

Northern Iraq, [ the Kurds], are enjoying a vibrant life of freedom, prosperity and enterprise.

[cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?channel=60Sunday]

tinyurl.com/4zr55

So too are Iraqis in areas other than Baghdad.
A US pullout would destroy these excellent people and their dreams.
The Kurds are a big population living mostly in Turkey but in many surrounding countries as well. They are currently the best friends the US has anywhere today.

A US pullout would turn this population into enemies of the USA on grounds of betrayal.

Kurds are the ideal loyal undercover agent for freedom in Iraq. With their help, there is real opportunity for breaking the Al Sadr death grip.

Libs, Dems, socialists, Murtha followers ..
A US pullout would reduce these good people to dust.

Is that moral? How can you justify that?
I*m reasonable. . . Convince me. = TG

Any relevance to the subject at hand?

If I were to respond in kind, I would be the devil's advocate: why should americans spill blood to save sunnis and shiites from each other when both of them have the same attitudes towards the US? Why not let them deal with the consequences of their "civilization".

Take comfort that your attitude is shared by many.

It is a thoughtless and inhumane attitude none the less.

You are fooled by the tensions stirred up by Iranian backed death squads as anti-Americanism.

So you would sacrifice populations of Iraqi parents and children including the Kurds who are pro-American.

Shame on you. = TG

fp: 'The difference between kurds and paestinians is that the former have a shared culture and ethnicity which translate into national cohesion. The latter AS SUCH do not. They are simply arabs who used to live in what were Syria, Egypt and Jordan. The concept of palestinians was invented as an anti-israel device -- THAT'S the real basis of cohesion. That's also why the kurds care more about setting up a nation, while the palestinians more about destroying israel.'

That's a very silly argument. You might as well argue that Michael Jordan isn't American because he's black and black people are from Africa. Besides, there's plenty of evidence that Palestinian nationalism emerged at the same time as Zionism

No, it's not the same thing, and it is your comment that's silly, mine is a simple statement of fact.

Don't use nonsensical metaphors. Just tell me WHAT EXACTLY is factually wrong with my statement?

Oh, yeah, it is not thoughtless and cruel for iraquis to murder each other in mass, but it is for US soldiers not to die to stop them.

(You did not notice that I explicitly said I was playing devil's advocate. Familiarize yourself with the term.)

Were the objective of the US in iraq moral, they wouldn't have gone there. That's just the propaganda.

Be that as it may, if they decided to go in, they should have done it competently in order to avoid the very anarchy and massacres that are occurring now. But due to the usual arrogant ignorance they failed abysmally and in so doing they triggered the current carnage. That this can now be defended as moral is stupid and absurd.

fp,

Arabs have about as much cultural simularity as Kurds do, especially Palestinian Arabs. To say that they are different, essentially because they are the same in form (one has shared culture and ethnicity, while the other has shared culture and ethnicity) is foolish. Kurds and Palestinians share the same level of ethnic and cultural simularity. The geography of the Kurds and Palestinians is vastly different, which has made their struggles very different from one another. Kurds are more like Berbers than Palestinians by far. As far as having national cohesion, I think if the Iraqi Kurds were taken from Iraq and sent off to Syria, Jordan, Iran, Turkey, Saudi, etc.and made to live in camps, while Arabs took over Kurdistan demographically, they would be a lot like the Palestinians. The Arabs never really got to displacing the Kurds, though kill a lot of them they did. Their experience is more comparable to that of Algeriab Kabyles and Chaouia, or Moroccan Riffs than Palestinian Arabs, geographically speaking. All three groups are similar in their level of cultural and historical cohesion. The Palestinians were not made up. That is utter nonsense and if they were made up simply to spite Israel, the Arabs in Palestine would not have been fighting Zionists in the first place.

fp,

Devil*s advocacy is often useful, but not an escape from logic.

You missed the point in my fourth sentence.

The Iran backed blackshirts under Moqtada al Sadr who are killing Baathist Sunni and the defensive vengence of Sunni death squads are not simply Iraqis killing each other, as you generalize it.

Tension exists in other parts of Iraq, but there is nothing like the killing in areas where the blackshirts are inflaming everyone.

Remove Moqtada and other Iranian motivators and money men, and the blackshirt squads will diminish to a low hum.

There is some truth to the last part of your comment however. = TG

Seems to me you, like so many others, are fooling yourself that there are simple solutions and only one guilty party.

There is no doubt that Iran is mixed up in the problem, but that is exactly what the US ignored when they started the whole thing in the first place.

The whole endeavor was done with the typical arrogant ignorance that US foreign policy is characterized by. THAT was thoughtless and cruel, not offering target practice to both sides in the conflict. Whose interests does it serve if not Iran's?

Nice story, but not relevant to my point.

The reality that despite Arabs' similarity, they could never unite and they mostly fought one another. That's why the dreams of pan-arabism failed utterly most than once (Nasser, Ghadaffi, you name it). That's because their loyalty is fisrt to tribe/clan than to nation or pan-national. Even in islam they are split, and there are christians too.

About the only thing that unites them is the hatred of Israel, and even on that they can't unite except for blah-blah.

Be that as it may, the fact remain that the arabs that lived in what are now israel, the west bank and gaza were never a nation as such. The arab states never considered them as such, which is why there was never a palestinian state prior to 1967, when they ruled over the area. And when the british mandate left, jordan syria and egypt were all trying to get parts of it in 1948.

The arab states intentionally left the refugees as such and never settled them as a breeding ground for israel hatred. When they started becoming a problem for everybody, they washed their hand and started talking about a palestinian state, against which they were originally against. They saw that too as a weapon against israel.

The point is that the palestinians AS SUCH were not thought AS A NATION before the partition, and appeared as one after israel came into being, but not even immediately.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/747

http://middleeastfacts.com/yashiko/Palestinians_eng.html

I just came across this, which is pertinent:

http://www.slate.com/id/2159936/

With an H.T. to bg at ITM. . .

Kurds send 3 brigades for surge;
Insurgent strikes down 80 percent
http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc0220WT.html
http://tinyurl.com/38uup8
February 20, 2007

excerpt:

[The U.S. military has sought a significant Kurdish military presence in Baghdad for the operation, an official said. *They
are regarded as the most professional of Iraqi security forces.*

Officials said the Kurdish brigades would also be used in any operation against Iranian-sponsored Shi*ite militias. They said Kurdish units have been deployed near Sadr City, regarded as headquarters of the Mahdi Army.

The Kurdish Peshmerga force, which supplies soldiers to the Iraq Army, was said to comprise 80,000. Officials said the Kurdistan government has sought to increase the force by 50 percent to prepare for any Turkish attack on northern Iraq. ]

= TG

If your search for Kurdishaspect.com/doc0220WT.html

fails to work, just go to;

www.Kurdishaspect.com and scroll down 10 to

Kurds send three brigades for . . .

= TG

It was nice to see this, Mike. I've reached a point of cynicism where I find it almost impossible to imagine the average right-wing blog ever saying anything positive about 60 Minutes, regardless of the quality of its journalism at any point. Because most of them have an agenda, as follows: short-term: destroy 60 Minutes: Long-Term: destroy / permanently warp journalism itself, with its archaic concepts like objectivity.

Of course, as you often point out, you're a centrist.

Good for you.

I'm also impressed with your honesty in response to criticisms of the Kurdish human rights situation. They really are the most liberal group around in an illiberal place, and it's probably related to their decades of persecution and their minority status. (Whether or not that, god help me, means I have common ground with fp on this topic, I'm not sure either) But their hands aren't clean. It doesn't mean we shouldn't back them, it just means we should be aware and, frankly, keep the spotlight on.

I'm very afraid that we're going to sell the Kurds downriver to Turkey, whether we pullout or whether we stay. Or else the Iraqi government is. If I was a Kurd, I'd get armed and stay armed.

Our support for Kurdistan would be much more open and obvious if we pulled out of Shia/Sunni Iraq and based our troops in Kurdistan exclusively. It would also demonstrate to the region that our support for Israel is based on its liberalism, not its Jewishness.

And our support for Saudi Arabia is based on?

And our support for Egypt?

And what about our efforts to create a Palestinian state? What's that based on?

What about US support for Lebanon? For Kuwait? And what about US support for Bosnia? For Kosovo?

Hey, Barry, that's based on promotion of democracy :))

If we could only demonstrate to Hamas, Abbas, Hezbollah that we supported Israel for its liberalism, not its jewishness, they will all understand, stop the jihad and liberalize themselves.

That's about how much the average american understands the ME.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015406.php#more
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015398.php#more

Our support for Egypt and Saudi Arabia is based on their liberal, modern states? Is that a bad joke? Would you like to retract and try again?

As for your other examples, it's still reallly easy to come up with other reasons why we supported those countries: just because it's not laughably obvious that promoting a liberal, enlightened, less violent, modern world order had nothing to do with us supporting them, doesn't make it shining clear that that is why.

Didn't you notice the laugh at the end of that senstence?

The fact of the matter is that the US cannot be taken seriously when it speaks of promoting democracy and freedom and all that jazz. That's good as propaganda for the masses who wants to believe that about itself, but in reality could not care less. The real problem is the arrogant ignorance about the world produced by the collapse of the educational system. Here's somebody who makes the point, though he does not see its real cause.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3734

Surely you jest.

You know damn well that the only reason the US supports all those other countries is simply because they're Jewish. And we all know how powerful the Jewish Lobby is....

Barry,

You got it. It's so darn obvious, what took you so long?

Here's the logo from my blog. There is nothing I would love more than to see the idiotic fake left--particularly the imbecilic anti-semitic jews live as dhimmis under islamism to realize how bad the jews really were.

They came for the Jews, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a Jew. They came for the Christians, and I did not speak up because I was not a Christian. They came for the leftists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a leftist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me. --Martin Niemoller (paraphrased to fit the times)
http://fallofknowledgeandreason.blogspot.com/

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