the government will bend (again), surprised

I don't know what to expect either, nor what to wish for.

Hezbo sucks, Aoun is lost, and the stupid gvmnt deserves zero sympathy and got it coming. (Bear in mind the US elections results probably emboldened HA and their masters).

My only spiteful wish now, is for Prez Lahoud and Speaker Berry to get it up the behind.

The government is dead.

New elections.

New election law.

End of Ta'ef and its favouritism.

Disarmament of Palestinians.

Why were Amal and Hizballah in the cabinet to begin with? Doesn't the Rafik list control 72 of 128 seats in the parliament through 2009? Is there, contrary to what I've heard, more than token support from Shiites for parties other than Amal/Hezb?

Isn't the idea that there must always be Shiites in the government at all times a throwback to the old confessional system?

On the other hand, with Shiite Lebanon in pieces, is there any realistic expectation that the government will reconstruct that place without Shiite participation in government?

Besides, what's the big deal about a 33% Hizballah veto, anyway? Seriously, what exactly is it that an independent observer expects the Hariri government to do, that Hizballah feels a need to veto? Put Bashir Assad on trial in absentia?

Last, but not least, if Shiites make up well over 35% of the population, how did the Rafik Hariri movement gain 72 Parliamentary seats, anyway?

I will not even guess what might happen next.

How about, a lot of hand-wringing, posturing, and confrontation, followed by the effective maintenance of the status quo?

The idea that you can't run the government without Shiite representation is an illusion. The question is whether it's a genuinely good idea to try to do so, to which the answer seems a lot like, "no."
So the Future Movement will demonstrate that they can do it, and Hezb will demonstrate that it's a bad idea, and they'll all go back to papering it over.

Glasnost,

What do you mean by the old confessional system? Lebanon still has a confessional (consociational) system.

An overwhelming majority of Shi'ites support either Amal or Hizbullah. At any rate, our support is far more distributed in that respect than those of other sects.

We make up more than 50% of Lebanon's population, not just 35%.

The issue is not about Shi'ite representation at all. You are misinformed about the Lebanese internal politics.

What happens next is that Saniora approves the tribunal in the government thus calling HA's bluff. HA is not ready for another violent confrontation just yet and in any case a coup will land Lebanon in the dumpster. HA will have to take care of $40B of debt and reconstruction together with severe economic sanctions. Aoun as a front will not fool anybody. If Saniora keeps his nerve, he can pull this through. HA and Aoun are bluffing and he knows it.

e

Oh come on, Guess what will happen next. You have one chance in a million to be correct, just like the rest of us, but we don't have "expertise" formed from growing up in that area of the world.

No we are not bluffing. We seek an end to coruption and nepotism in Lebanon. The "March 14" is the same faces that collaborated with the Syrian occuption, just recycled a little bit mainly for U.S. and French support.

We support the formation of the International Tribunal. However, we also want a non-corrupt government, an audit to find out over the last 16 years who stole what exactly and hold them accountable, and a new, fair electoral law. However, the reason why they fear us is because if the truth came out about how stole what, 90% of "March 14" will be shown to have their hands dirty.

I'm probably taking the bait so that he can spout another propanda line off his list of talking points, but can anyone figure out why our friendly neighborhood Hezbollah spokesman tacked "Disarmament of Palestinians" onto the end of his post?

By the way, for those who aren't still reading those threads below, I made a little observation about AlGhaliboon's demands over on my blog (click my name below).

AG: We make up more than 50% of Lebanon's population, not just 35%.

No you don't.

can anyone figure out why our friendly neighborhood Hezbollah spokesman tacked "Disarmament of Palestinians" onto the end of his post?

They're Sunni? (I admit that's a guess, and he probably won't admit that if I'm right. But my hunch is that's the real reason.)

Not to bring up goodwin, but damn Lebanon you are making a huge mistake. Good luck either way.

Omega80,

What I meant that HA is bluffing about using force and instigating a civil war. Yes, you will mount great demonstrations and March 14 will mount anti-demonstrations just as big, but without using force, you cannot dislodge the current government because it has massive international backing. If HA attempt anything close to a coup and succeed, it will put Lebanon in the dumpster even if the front for this travesty is Aoun. You just cannot afford economic sanctions and loss of international support (unless you think the support of Iran and Syria is enough).

e

They're Sunni?

That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe he's complaining that disarming Hezbollah will, in effect, be disarming Palestine. Still I don't understand what this has to do with Hezbollah quitting the government.

I guess I'm just dense, I don't understand his statement or your take on it.

Josh,

If there is a civil war in Lebanon, Sunni and Shia will massacre each other. Palestinians are armed and Sunni.

When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the Shia of South Lebanon hailed the Israelis as liberators against Sunni/Palestinian oppression.

AG is right that Israel's terrible behavior in Lebanon at the time turned the Shia against them. (Iran also came in and stirred them up.) Israel has never learned how to deal with Lebanon. Their entire strategy is and has been broken.

Mr. Totten,

Yes, we do make up 50% of the population, and that's being generous to the rest. But I realize that it's a bit difficult to swallow for those who hail the 1932 census as the solution to Lebanon's problems.

Regarding the disarmament of Palestinians, it is a prerequisite for our disarmament for a number of reasons. It makes no sense to disarm a Lebanese faction when you have armed non-Lebanese factions in and OUT of the camps, especially so when the Lebanese army is incapable of actually defending Lebanon from Israel. Should we disarm before these people are disarmed, and should they hurl a rocket across the border (and the security forces have shown inability to stop rockets from being thrown around in Beirut), we would in effect taking ourselves back to 1978 and 1982.

As for the person who stated we are bluffing on the use of force, where/when did we threaten to use force?

should they hurl a rocket across the border (and the security forces have shown inability to stop rockets from being thrown around in Beirut), we would in effect taking ourselves back to 1978 and 1982.

No, you did not just say that with a straight face. Did you?

Whatever you mean by that?

Heh, I just noticed the update you had made on the post;

We've got plenty of Shia we can appoint to fill their positions
Way to go. If they happen to find those "plenty of Shia" (I think they rather meant, plenty of opportunists), they might want to review the history of Shi'ite politicization and realize that at no point will our people accept the return to power of the elite Shi'ite families. Welcome to the Sunni mentality; that we, the Shi'ites, are supposed to be always subordinated to their rule. It seems they cannot get over the fact that we survived history, their mass-murdering caliphs, and Israel (twice - between 1982 and 2000, and in 2006).

and we'll give Aoun positions in the government if he wants them.
I find it amusing that they paint General Aoun as someone who is after positions in the government. If General Aoun were after that, he would've done it a long time ago. I find it amusing that these people think they can reflect their desires on others, and still expect to sound reasonable. They think that just because they are only after money and power, others are too. Thus, they base everything on speculation, to fit every single phenomenon into this neatly-designed explanation.

That way, it will be the entire nation against Hezbollah and Amal.
These people are living in a dream. They are living in a dream especially because - either knowingly or not, though I tend to think it's deliberate - they are convinced (or pretend to be) that we, Hizbullah and Amal do not represent the majority of Shi'ites (we represent AT LEAST 95% of Shi'ites, that's being generous to the rest). Consequently what they are aiming at, and what they aimed at during the war (and this was, to their distress, countered by General Aoun and his party, FPM), is marginalizing the entire Shi'ite sect because we refuse to play second-fiddle to them and demand to be treated as equals (guess that word doesn't exist in Sunni dictionary). This is what they tried to do with the Christians when General Aoun refused to play along and give in to their blackmails, and they propped up war criminal Samir Geagea as the so-called representative of the Christians. So by no means are we the first. Unfortunately, we had counted on their goodwill, but their good will was not forthcoming in the biggest of humannitarian crises in Lebanon's recent history. The Sunnis want to rule the country. I'm beginning to think that U.S policy is such that it will reward the Sunnis by giving them Lebanon in return for toppling Sunni dictatorial rule in Iraq.

Lebanon will never be controlled by Sunnis - or by any one group for that matter. These people are playing with fire.

Weren't the shia's and sunnies in Lebanon killing each-other way before 1978 and 1982?

Lebanon will never be controlled by Sunnis - or by any one group for that matter. These people are playing with fire.

OOOO! OOOOO! Mr. Kotter! Mr. Kotter! Pick me, I know what the anwser!

Ahem, they're treating you like slaves, and you'll make them sorry.

[bows to applause] Thank you, thank you1

AG: Whatever you mean by that?

You are severely irony-impaired if you, a member of Hezbollah, are worried about Palestinians firing rockets at Israel and inviting another invasion.

You know what else, AG? A lot of us (me anyway) would sympathize a lot more with your complaints against the Israelis and the Sunnis (many of which are legitimate, in my opinion) if you would find a more mature and, yes, civilized method of redress.

Mr. Totten,

Are you saying that Palestinians and Lebanese are the same?

Furthermore, are you saying that we actually hurled a rocket as a provocation rather than retaliation?

If so, please revise your facts.

At any rate, focusing on a secondary point proves the weakness of those who refuse to see the legitimacy of the calls for the disarmament of Palestinians before anyone else. For that matter, I would say that the disarmament of the Salafis in the north is on an equal footing. Unless you are only worried about Israel's "right to self-defense" (which would not be surprising and indeed would support our assertion that you only aspire to do Israel, and no one else, a service by calling for our disarmament, because frankly we have not seen you or those who espouse your positions call for the disarmament of Palestinians and Salafis - indeed, it seems that this issue is deliberately glossed over by western governments, so systematically that we are left wondering if they do have a hidden agenda, which they often have been proven to have).

please revise your facts.

"Revise your facts," that's Orwellian.

AG, I would love to see the disarmament of the Palestinians and the Salafists. But you Hezbollah are far more likely to blow up a bunch of shit in the near future. So pretty much the entire world beyond Syria and Iran (not just the Zionist Entity and the US with its "hidden agenda") would like to see you guys become a civilized political party instead of the thugs you are.

We're all tired of your bullshit. We're all tired of having to send soldiers from all over the world to clean up your mess.

~~~Ahem, they're treating you like slaves, and you'll make them sorry.~~~

Mr. Josh Scholar, why are you denegrading the single most important thing people (oppressed people) relate to?? Are you really that ignorant that oppression is the main cause for social unrest and public sympathy for those pretending to represent them while in fact those leaders are only running after power?

No one is talking about using violence, and violence is unacceptable by any side. If "March 14" want to solve the problem, let them institute a fair electoral law and have new elections, then if they win the majority for real we will gladly assume our role as the opposition until the next election time.

However, such a thing will never happen. They want to monopolize power in Lebanon, and it seems they haven't learned that power can't be monopolized in Lebanon for very long because of the nature of the system there, which is based on a very delicate balance of power.

It is very disheartening for someone in the FYO to say that they want to isolate Hezbollah and Amal, because they are basically saying that they want to isolate Shias in Lebanon. With the very delicate nature of our sectarian system, this is very irresponsible.

To be honest, I disagree with the timing of the resignations, because I feel that they should have occured after the tribunal issue was voted and agreed on as not to have them try and distract the people from the real issues at stake here by saying that we wish to distrupt the tribunal, which is far from the truth.

Thus, while some want to push the Shias in Lebanon into a corner, thus leading Lebanon to a catastrophe, we wish to bring them to the center by showing them that we care about them since they are fellow Lebanese and that they have a stake in Lebanon as much as we do. Some people have to be reminded that Lebanon is not Saudi Arabia and will never be ruled by one family. However, by their actions it seems this is what they are trying to achieve. They want to cancel everyone out of the equation.

"AG is right that Israel's terrible behavior in Lebanon at the time turned the Shia against them."

This is a start. Instead of just attacking him because he is a supporter of Hezbollah, why not try and comment on his concerns and what he is saying. Keeping in mind that Hezbollah is not an enemy of the United States. There are many Shia that live in the U.S. that are supporters of Hezbollah and go about their daily lives, and you won't hear a peep of trouble out of them.

I am not saying Hezbollah is perfect, but once they disarm and the mistrust is moved out of the way, I know that the U.S. will not have any issues with them, and you may even see the U.S. Ambassador in Lebanon wanting to meet with high level Hezbollah officials.

Tsedek, you obviously haven't read this whole long set of threads.. AlGhaliboon has repeatedly threatened everyone within and far outside of his reach, always starting with nonsensical claims that he, his children (and in some cases the entire middle east) are humilated slaves. Calls for peace make him slather that peace would make his children slaves. That he'll die, he'll let them all die before being a slave, that every Arab state in the middle east are degraded slaves (degraded by peace, I think). He has also threatened the Sunnis, saying they treat Shiites as slaves and something incomprehensible about "slaves to be"...

At times the rhetoric has sunk to depth the sane can ne'er follow, but no doubt it's all copied from spittle flecked rants by Nasrallah.

I responded to one of his latest rants with the following (in a different thread):

Notice all of AlGhaliboon's insane talk about being "slaves" or "treated like slaves"? He's said that Israel makes all of the middle east slaves, he's said that peace would make his children slaves and he's said that Sunnis treat his people like slaves.

The important thing to notice is that every mention of this insane talk was accompanied by a threat or as an excuse for war. He could not, when pressed, say a single word that substantiated this insane rhetoric.

It should be clear what "slave" means when AlGhaliboon says it. It's always a combination of threat and excuse for violence. His ideology pretends victimhood every time it commits a crime, every time it kills, every time it threatens, every time it oppresses.

This is the common mark of a fascist thug. Be aware that this is what AlGhaliboon is.

Josh Scholar,

I must say, your understanding of "threatening" and "threat" is quite astonishing, even for someone like us, whose native language is not English.

I realize, however, that it is easier for those who actually lack any valid points and arguments, to jump on the rhetorical - as opposed to factual and historical - bandwagon. Which explains very clearly why you "put an end" to the discussion when you were getting a serious "beating" with facts, but leapt onto the bandwagon of generalizations and rants about "Islamofascism" to vent your hatred and bigotry which you could otherwise not explain, or justify, based on history. What you try to pass off as strength is in fact a weakness. And we see right through you.

A couple of great threads, Michael. Just as the ice has been broken and the conversation gets started, the government in Lebanon collapses. Two steps forward, one step back, or is it two? Isn't that Lebanon's curse? I wish them luck. I hope this conversation continues and that the only attacks are verbal or with ballots.

I noticed on the Daily Star website that a trade agreement between the US and Lebanon is in the making and that Lebanon and the US are negotiating on Lebanon's entry into the WTO. That is good news, even if AG does not take material maters as seriously as many of us in the West do. More trade for Lebanon means more jobs at home, less upheaval in average lives, and a chance for the Shia community to participate in the benefits of a strong Lebanese economy. I am not naive enough to think that this will guarantee peace in Lebanon, but it is a step in the right direction.

Just a couple of observations about the conversation with AG:

"Respect for Israel, Jews & Christians". How do we interpret this? Equality? Full equality? No more talk of protected status for religious minorities in Muslim countries, but rather acceptance of the concept of freedom of religion, including freedom to cast off your religion? Until we agree on that we really are talking past one another.

What will people like AG do if the Palestinians decide to waive their claims to full right of return in exchange for a state with secure borders and for some sort of financial compensation for property confiscated or lost? On the one hand AG wants to disarm the Palestinians as part of a political settlement at home, but on the other hand he takes up the cause of Palestine and proclaims his willingness to die for that cause. I smell hypocrisy here. Don't get me wrong -- there's enough hypocrisy to go around on all sides. The critical issue is what AG and his brothers will do if the Palestinians settle for less than everything that is on their wish list. Will AG and his backers accept that peace or reject it and start looking for another reason to attack Israel? Will AG continue to allow himself to be manipulated by foreign powers such as Iran to foment discord in the region and expand Iranian, and therefore shia power?

What will be the effect of allowing Lebanon's Shia population to become full stakeholders in the Lebanese system? Once we cut through the all the extraneous issues isn't this the basic issue confronting Lebanon today?

I am a veteran of the Seventies and Eighties cold war "dialogue" with the left. Much of what I hear from AG and his sort reminds me of that dialogue. The "interational brotherhood" mentality. The cheap talk of imperialism, slavery and western corruption. I urge folks like AG to keep talking to us and to listen to us. Not the ones throwing personal insults or the ones proclaiming the infallibility of western values, and not the self-flagellating ones, but the ones explaining our experience and convictions in personal terms.

Mr. Josh Scholar,
i've got no doubt whatsoever that what mr. alghaliboon expresses are his true feelings. why not start listening to them? they may be violent, they may not be what you (or i) want to hear, but it ARE his feelings and he IS a person.
i think you underestimate the effect oppression (and humiliation) can have on people.
are you a mideastern?

are you a mideastern?

I'm a human being, an American who grew up in Canada - both successful countries made up mostly of immigrants from everywhere else. I have the same high standards for everyone, and I won't fall into the trap of believing that anyone has an excuse.

AlGhaliboon actually, I'm not wasting time discussing things with you personally because long experience on the Internet has taught me that liars, ideologs, propagandists and haters are a complete waste of time to talk with and throw up so much smoke that any discussion with your like obscures far more than it reveals.

Lying is asymmetric warfare, in that it takes a liar only seconds to concoct a huge web of lies, and takes an honest man a week to disprove them. I'm not interested in playing.

It seems to me that for you, discussion is a game that one plays only to win, rather arrive to better understanding of the enemy, into whom/which you would otherwise not be able to have such a unique insight (though again, it seems to me that in the ignorant and supremacist wolrd view so prevalent in your part of the world, understanding the enemy or even speaking his language, reading his views, are all a waste of time - keep it up, because you will not only lose Iraq and Afghanistan, but also the Gulf Arab states and practically anyone who is willing to cooperate with you for whatever purpose and agenda it is, even if the agenda is the noblest in the history of mankind). For you discussion means nodding in approval of those with whom you agree; we call that soothing one's ego. I am baffled by your insistence that my "lies" are a non-starter, when you are yet to address those "lies" to begin with. But again you were quite honest about your unwillingness to touch my "lies" even with a ten-foot-pole, even if that would mean completely debunking me and making me irrelevant in the "discussion".

Keep going in circles. Hastening the process might just bring your ego to a point of over-soothing, and you might, at last, realize your mistake. But then again, your ignorance and willingness to wallow in it, is a point to our advantage.

I have no time for anyone who will insist that I have to be his enemy. I think it's a better use of my time to ignore the insane and to appeal to the sane people around them to exercise their responsibility to society to keep the insane from hurting anyone.

I have no enemies, not sane ones, because I intend no harm. If you're my enemy then you're insane.

Anyway I don't talk to win, I talk communicate, to convince, to improve the world. Apparently you talk in order to formulate battle plans, disgusting, insane. But I was right that your aim isn't communication.

Mr. Josh Scholar,
only by recognizing that your 'opponent' is a human being like yourself with his right on his own perspective can you discuss (and, if no solution is found: fight) with him. One should NEVER EVER approach a person from an imaginary higher moral ground if he addresses you with his grievances.

Josh,

No one said you have to be my enemy. You, personally, are not my enemy. Nor is any American or Westerner. Our enemy is the U.S policy towards our people and the general Western inaction on our suffering while they keep repeating "never again". What are we to understand from this? That some types of blood are more valuable than others? Surely if you are a fan of Orwell, you would realize the irony.

I'm going to lose the middle east? I didn't know I had it. GW better call me to get in on a piece of the action!

On reflection it would seem that this discussion with AlGhaliboon is a waste of time. It seems to me he is just a 23 year-old-kid who is simply gaining an inflated ego from all the attention being lavished on him, to the extent that he is now bloggin about it:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://alghaliboon.blogspot.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=4&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalghaliboon%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLJ,GGLJ:2006-18,GGLJ:en

Mertel, I don't think anyone has ever said that AlGhaliboon is an important member of Hezbollah.

Mertel,

Way to go; another cheap attempt to fallaciously dismiss my arguments. I suppose you proved you can use google.

At any rate, allow me to actually translate, because the translation tool is woefully inaccurate:

"Today I received an advice from Michael Totten, and that is, that I should read the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz.

...
Thank you for this advice. Without you we would not have known about Ha'aretz."

Is your ego satisfied now? Good. Now let us get back to the real issue at hand, I believe you do not have any more googling to do.

e should NEVER EVER approach a person from an imaginary higher moral ground if he addresses you with his grievances.

Not every grievance deserves sympathy especially not ones carefully constructed as an excuse for the constant war and hatred that fascists need.

Not every higher moral ground is imaginary.

tsedek,

i think you underestimate the effect oppression (and humiliation) can have on people.
are you a mideastern?

And I think you underestimate the oppression and humiliation heaped on the rest of the population, often times by the creeps who claim to be oppressed (and use it to oppress others).

I am from the ME and I was oppressed by the "poor victimized" Palestinians in Beirut, and by assorted totalitarian creeps (Nasserites etc) before they totally destroyed the country in the 1970s'.

"One persons's terrorist is another's freedom figher" and VICE VERSA.

In some chic circles the Palestinan Keffieh and other leftist paraphernalia are a symbol of freedom. To me it will forever be a symbol of oppression. You should get out more.

And also boo-hoo-hoo, now that I'm a victim, will you now listen to my story and support my every demented action?

Tsedek, also all of this talk of feelings is misplaced.

When you ask what someone is feeling you're looking at symptoms rather than causes. You should be asking what a person believes and what they think, both actions and feelings follow belief, not the other way around.

Most of your opinions here fail to grasp the entire picture and facts.
Hezbollah, Amal and the FPM are the new majority (at least more than 65% of the population). Failure to mirror this fact in the current government will only lead to unrest until a more representative government is formed.
Here is an article that gives more background on what is happening.
http://www.mideastmonitor.org/issues/0609/0609_1.htm

"Way to go; another cheap attempt to fallaciously dismiss my arguments."

It was nothing to do with your arguements AlG, I was addressing the extraordinary attention others are providing them. People seem to think by arguing with you they are arguing with Hezbollah.

I am merely pointing out that you are just a 23-year-old kid, who seems to be enjoying all the attention. Therefore whilst many here have successfully dismantled your arguments, the effect is only to bolster your professed inadequate ego, and embolden and encourage you and in your proclaimed jihad against your chosen enemies (which happens to include most of the people here).

People seem to think by arguing with you they are arguing with Hezbollah.
I don't think anyone actually said or implied such a thing. I am, however, a full-fledged member of Hizbullah and my family has given more than one martyr to the cause; I also have knowledge of some things that supporters otherwise do not.

I am yet to see anyone dismantling my arguments. In fact, the few who have attempted to have been the ones whom I deeply respect and whose readiness to have dialogue I appreciate. I am not afraid of challenges; in fact, I welcome them. Hence my calls to quite a number of people here to address my points, which so far they show no willingness to do, on the bases of my alleged (!!!) "Jihadism" (do me a favour, please tell me what Jihad means; I mean, both as an Arabic word and as an Islamic concept/belief).

You say I am a 23-year-old, and I presume you looked at my profile on the FPM website (nevertheless I commend your curiosity); however, allow me to remind you that we have given martyrs much younger than 23. Age, as such, is not a scale by which to judge dedication.

they keep repeating "never again".

Another Nazi comparison, that I'm sure you "did not actually mean" to be a Nazi comparison. Again.

What a joke.

HEY!! Josey Wales - I'm NOT defending the hizb or any of their likes. C'mon hey!! They're a terrorist organization in my eyes and I despise terrorists. They've killed and kidnapped my neighbor and kept his body hostage for 3 blooming years having his parents gone through hell and back, what do you think, that I can respect them or their right of speech??

However - I'm very curious to know where the feeling of oppression stems from and more from a point of view of people supporting them. I'm sure that you were not oppressed by the whole shia' community those days but by their headstrongs? Were you? I would truely like to know why people using violence achieve support. And I know oppressing and humiliating is one of the most 'successful' hand-outs for governments to create rebellion.

I'm almost sure that half of the shia's in lebanon have no idea who samir kuntar is (the 'hero' that the hizb wants freed and started this kidnapping of soldiers for) and what he has done (smacked a little girl's head to the rocks in front of her father's eyes until she was dead) - SO: it is just interesting to HEAR from people of the 'opposite' corner without killing them with personal accusations.

Tsedek,

We all know who Samir al-Quntar is. Anyway he is not Shi'ite, he is Druze. But it's not only about al-Quntar but also about our other prisoners (and the 2000 capture was about the other prisoners, whom we got back, and who had suffered greatly at the hands of Israeli torturers who did the most indecent and immoral things - another practice that Israel ought to re-consider if it is interested in making friends in the long run), and the very idea that you don't respect that our claims are just as legitimate as yours, because your people have also killed my people (without going further into moral equivalency arguments).

People using violence achieve support because of the aims are deemed important enough to warrant any method to achieve the means, and the fact that other means have been unsuccessful; but you can also ask yourself this question, because it also applies to your people. This is exactly why Islamist movements, Hizbullah, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Jordan, and elsewhere, and others I cannot mention because the list is long, have, when given the chance to contest elections or allowed to even think of the prospect of coming to power (and being able to advance their people's plight, and try to work on their agendas - notwithstanding that you disagree w/ these agendas) have tended to adopt a moderate and pragmatic political position. Hizbullah is a success story in that regard. The suppression of Islamist movements merely gives us more impetus. Another thing that our self-styled enemies, namely anti-Islamists, fail to realize. If we do represent the will of the people, we ought to be able to come to power. If, as they say, we are a marginal force, let them give us a chance to seriously contest their claims and prove that we are a force to be reckoned with. And if we are not, as they claim, then we will lose. Isn't that only fair?

By the way, I cannot help but be surprised at the fact that an Israeli is more open to having a conversation/discussion with me than some Americans who have not even set foot in the region, and have no knowledge of its peoples' historical grudges.

tsedek:

I'm almost sure that half of the shia's in lebanon have no idea who samir kuntar is

Do you think they would change their mind about him if they knew what he did?

Do you really think they care about the condition of skulls of little Zionist girls? Aside from actually wanting them all to be smashed in?

He's a 'hero' up there to people who know exactly what he did AND to people who only know him as an idea.

Apologies,

In the beginning of the 2nd paragraph I meant to say:

People using violence achieve support because of the fact that aims are deemed important enough to warrant any means to achieve them, and the fact that other means have been unsuccessful

Mr. (Mrs.) SoCalJustice, I would like to think that many people would condemn such actions if they're fully aware of them. Like I condemn actions of the IDF when and if they prove inhumane.

Mr. AlGhaliboon, "any means"?? PURPOSELY killing children as well?

I'm aware of the indecent handling of the lebanese prisoners by our guards, that's also one thing I'm against and would speak up against, IF (!) the 'other side' would show the same compassion. But I can't see that....

Pictures of hundreds of Israeli's streaming to the Blue Line-fence after Israel left Lebanon in 2000 come to my eyes in which they were asking for peaceful relations, for normalization, for a future TOGETHER... but were met by hundreds of angry hizb-supporters threatening to 'crush them & drive them outta israel'

Where do your point of re-assessment start and when? Does it necessarily have to do with the Palestinian conflict? And, if so, are you aware that many Lebanese, although they hate Israel (of which I can't blame them after a 20 year occupation and terrible war) would like their national interest to supercede that of the palestinians cause because they feel wounded enough already by the repercussions (say like having all those wars on their territory that are not really their wars) coming from israel?

tsedek,

(It's Mr. :-)).

I would like to think that many people would condemn such actions if they're fully aware of them.

And that's sweet of you. But just so you know, they know and he's still a hero.

Like I condemn actions of the IDF when and if they prove inhumane.

There's plenty of indoctrination in Jewish and Israeli society. But it's not even in the same universe as the pro-Hizballah Shia community.

It's nice of you to think that they would look at the world through a similar lens as your own, but it's just not reality.

They know and he's a hero.

Einat Haran was a Zionist oppressor and:

a) nothing happened to her that Jews haven't been doing to Arabs for years, you see; and

b) she's a Jewish european colonial settler and all Samir Quntar was doing was fulfilling the Hadith: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Trust me. I'm hoping you're right. If the anti-Hizballah Shia rise up against Hizballah because they realize that the "pride" and "honor" they bring them is actually in the form of death, destruction, pain, oppression and a medieval mindset, then everyone will be better off.

But I wouldn't hold your breath.

Tsedek,

It is almost always the case that normal people cannot understand extremists. You will never be able to understand Al. For example, there are "color blind" people that can only see in black and white. The world to them looks like a black and white movie to us. Would you ever be able to explain to these people what to see red is? Some things you can only understand by experiencing yourself. Another example is the sexual urge. Can this be explained to anyone before puberty? You have to experience it to understand it.

Everybody has sensed humiliation in life, but what Al has is this hyper-humiliation sense that no matter how much you try, you will never understand without actually experiencing it. Many of us probably have the potential to develop such a sense, but honor societies provide the right environment for this sense to be nurtured and then manifest itself. Once this happens, there is nothing much that can be done.

e

Mr. AlGhaliboon, "any means"?? PURPOSELY killing children as well?
Yes, any means; any means, that is, that our (Islamic) belief in justice would allow. And no, that does not include killing of children. At any rate, I do not think that Mr. Quntar's release is being sought for because he is a child killer, or that seeking his release would entail supporting his criminal action which is haram (prohibited). He is, however, a Lebanese prisoner, and we demand the release of all Lebanese prisoners, just like Israel would demand the release of its prisoners/soldiers, however much blood on their hands might be.

When have your prisoners in our hold been treated in the indecent manner that our prisoners have been treated? Can you please give me names?

It is always easy for the occupier to expect peace and not understand the rejection thereof by the recently liberated. It is easy to do so exactly because we were on the defensive, and trying to liberate our land, whereas you were on the offensive, and refused to leave our country.

You say you were met by an angry mob at the border; I say, yes we were angry, and still are. But there is something more, something that few people would like to admit. There's also curiosity. When I see scenes from your cities and kibbutzim on TV, I get a strange feeling, but of resentment and curiosity. It is difficult to admit, but yes, we are curious about you. We want to learn more about you and not just because knowing more about you would enable us to enhance our performance in the battlefield. I don't say this to many of my people (except a few). Many will probably deny that they feel the same. But trust me, they do feel interested, and yes, they also do visualize what it would be like if peace were to finally come to our part of the world. I know the names of your towns and cities and every single kibbutz and moshav that you have built. I read your newspapers more than I read Lebanese ones.

We are not a bunch of lunatics who strap explosive belts to their chests and blow themselves up. As much as we despise your injustices, we also respect and acknowledge your achievements.

We also know about your past and the injustices that your people went through and survived. I know the names of all the camps that your people were interned and killed at, the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and everything else. We also follow all your actions, including such campaigns and services as Birthright Israel, the March of the Living, Nefesh B'Nefesh, etc. We know you more than you know yourselves. Peace requires knowledge of your neighbours as much as war does. We have done our homework. Have you done yours?

Mertel,

You are on the right track and for those of you who wish to understand the making of an extremist - AlGhaliboon is a 23 year old young man whose story is as follows:

Dan Marsden was born and raised in East Beirut, the son of an Armenian mother and an English father. His father was killed during the Lebanese civil war and Dan has been haunted ever since by the thought that his father may have killed civilians as a member of a Christian militia. He goes to York University in Toronto and becomes a homosexual, atheist, anarchist and fanatical anti-zionist.

On graduating, in May of 2005, he returns to Lebanon to search for the truth about his father. He becomes attracted to Islam, converts, joins Hezbollah, marries a Lebanese girl who is now pregnant, and then is wounded fighting the Israelis in the summer of 2006. Now apparently he has recycled himself as AlGhaliboon, an apologist for Hezbollah.

There are many interesting elements here. How does a young person go from one extreme to the other in a short period of time – politically, religiously and even sexually? There appears to be a convergence in some instances between the extreme left and Islamism. The left is vociferously anti-American and pro-palestinian and some leftists are finding a home in the islamist camp. Perhaps a journalist like Michael J. Totten could look into this story.

So as you read AlGhaliboon’s (aka Dan Marsden) posts, keep in mind that you are reading the arguments of someone whose first language is English, educated in the West, a convert to Islam, not of Arab blood, who has followed an odd path.

For the full story check out the Blogging the Middle East blog at meastpolitics(dot)wordpress(dot)com. August 21, 2006 “My friend the Terrorist”, and August 23, 2006 “A conversation with Dan”. Read the comments too.

Also check out Dan’s web site Winds of Change in the Middle East? at marsden(dot)blogspot(dot)com.

How does a young person go from one extreme to the other in a short period of time

Self-loathing.

Al,
Were you, or are you Dan Marsden?
e

Mr. :) SoCallJustice,
Allright. I've seen those people on tv, that are willing to send their own children as human fadjr's filled with explosives into Israel because of their hate of Israeli's - a notion of which can never be taken away from them, because it is too much rooted in. Is part of them.
BUT (!) I've also seen southern-Lebanese Shia's (mostly elderly women for some strange reason) that were completely tired of all this violence and crying and begging for it to stop. (Those pictures were broadcast on israeli tv during the war). So, there you have it: even this so-called support of the hizb is not black/white :)
The only thing I'm curious about is what quantities are we talking about - and I've got the strange feeling that a reliable response to this won't come ever, since each and everyone is too busy pushing their own agenda's (incl. propaganda) through...

Also: your quote from the Quran. There are many, many peaceful quotes in that Book. Everybody selects one to show 'something' - It's still a matter of what/where/who/how many believe in which 'way' the Quran offers.

Mr. e.,
I CAN understand extremists. I really can. I can work myself up that much that I can actually get to the point that I can become one myself if I'd let it be (without the part of alternative killing that is). 'Losing it' is, in fact, not that unnatural in my eyes. That's why talking is so important, and that's why insulting and adding oil to fire is that desastrous.

Tsedek,
You understand extremists in the same way that you understood jokes about sex before puberty. Don't fool yourself.
e

Can this petty playing on the person stop??
How is this part of the discussion?

Mr. e,
you convinced yourself that I'm not able to do so, but that's just what it is: YOUR conviction. that is also one of the most irritating (next to the wonderful) aspects of 'western society' - they think they know everything and all - while.... they don't.
please be assured that i don't write things that are not true...

Tsedek,
We are discussing whether extremists can be understood by normal human beings. Let me rephrase my previous remark to make clear that it is not a personal attack:
You understand extremists in the same way that I understood jokes about sex before puberty. I used to laugh at them and thought I understood them.

I think your position with extremists is similar. Everyone can imagine being a serial killer, but there is huge difference between imagining and experiencing the urge to commit several murders. Just by imagining yourself a serial killer, you don not gain understanding of what a serial killer is. You have to experience his emotions, which you obviously can't.

His emotions lead to action. Your induced emotions don't. They are very different emotions.

e

Eye spy,
How sure are you that Al is Dan Marsden?
e

e, reading the story, I am pretty sure I am not. If you get the sarcasm.

One thing, though, this guy has supposedly converted? I am not sure I buy his story though if he has converted it's surely God's will.

Anyway, I do not understand this obsession with showing that I am this or that, an anti-Semite or not, Mr. Marsden or not.

Mr. AlGhaliboon,
would Samir Kuntar get jailed if he were to be returned to the hizb for committing a haram crime? or would it be swept under the carpet for "it's all ok, since it is the enemy?"....

I don't know about the prisoners your hold that have been maltreated while in captivity, since the only ones I can say anything reliable about in that aspect were quite dead before they arrived, and mr. juggler (the drugdealer orwhatever that got mixed up with the wrong crowd and was released in the last prisoner's exchange doesn't really interest me).

Mr. AlGhaliboon, your organization doesn't really see the difference between the IDF and civilians? (that came to the fence). "We" civilians wanted to reach out and touch... It was "us" civilians that got Israel outta Lebanon in the end... "our" pressure was weighing in. You MUST see the difference?

Besides to that, did you know that (and I am 100% certain about this fact) ALL IDF'ers would like to enter Lebanon 'next time' only with a valid pasport? That NONE of them are interested in getting mixed up in violence again and bombing the shit outta innocent people that as a rule ALWAYS get to be the victims... ?

It's good you're well-informed about israel and israeli's but somehow, I distinctly feel, you miss the clou: no-one, except extremists that are kept under control and even more (social) control if resistance against our existence would stop, wants anything else than just to live in peace. How this can be accomplished with another people that have serious grievances against this very existence, should be TALKED ABOUT. Every violent move towards Israel & Israeli's automatically hardens society for the fate of others, when they themselves feel endangered.
So, this cycle of violence, Mr. AlGhaliboon, is just keeping opposites opposites and serving extremists not only from a favorable point of view but also, directly, the extremists of the 'other side'.

My homework? LOL - I'm exactly busy doing that all the time, Mr. AlGhaliboon, all the time.... even now, here with you.

No, Mr. e.,
that is not true. the 'personal attack' comment i wrote was not meant for you but for whoever wants to lead the discussion into name-blaming towards mr. alghaliboon. What does it matter if he's 23 or 75? or a man or a woman? or whatever? he's putting forward different views - and that should be discussed. not who he is.

BUT: Mr. e., your comparison to sex and jokes doesn't cut wood. I can perfectly well imagine myself become a suicidebomber if familymembers would be killed (Godforbid) by 'occupation forces' (the only thing is that alternative killing just wouldn't catch on to me, but that's another story.. )How many times do you read or hear people exclaim that when they do something to their children they would torture and kill the person committing such crime? That's not 'extremist"?

Al,
A simple yes or no answer would be the most helpful:
Are you or were you Dan Marsden?

Care to enlighten us about the following:
Is English your mother tongue?
Were you born a Muslim?
Do you have a college degree and where did you get it?

To make this reciprocal let me tell you that my mother tongue is Hebrew, I was born and am a Jew and that I am a graduate of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Regarding antisemitism, there is a concept called "good faith" that we utilize in the West. If you are a racist, it is unlikely that your answers would be in good faith. That is why the fact that you are an antisemite is important.

e

tsedek,

it is my sincere hope that you are right.

i also hope this latest news shows all good Lebanese people - including Shia - that Hizballah has no intention of playing nice within their own country, and that, at the end of the day, they are much more of a burden then a boost (to false notions of "pride" - not one of the seven deadly sins for nothing - and "honor" anyway).

they should have figured this out already, as they have their "victory" celebrations on piles of rubble.

but whatever, some lessons take longer to learn than others.

but some lessons will never be learned.

we'll see.

I was in Israel in September, and everything seemed exactly as it was the last time I was there, a year earlier. It was in great shape. This was just a few weeks after the war.

In war terms, Israel was barely nicked.

Yet Olmert is internally reviled (as he should be).

Meanwhile, Lebanon has been reduced to an international charity case and Nasrallah is a hero.

The Lebanese really need to figure that out - for their own sakes. And soon.

e, I will answer, but I will not go into detail because I wish to keep myself as anonymous as possible for a number of reasons which I will not elaborate.

1. No.
2. Arabic is my mother tongue. However, I have attended, beyond intermediate level, a school which teaches English on the same level as Arabic, which would explain why my English is good (and also why I said that I have a very Western education); also I have lived in the U.S in particular for some time. As for what I do now, I can say that I do have a higher degree from a local university, and only that much.
3. Yes, and proud. And I proudly bear the testimony that THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE GOD and that Muhammad(PBUH) is His Prophet.

Incidentally, I did not know you were Israeli. But I find it ironic as I already told Tzedek, that I have been able to sustain dialogue with an Israeli more than some Americans.

Tsedek,

Experiences are subjective. You cannot experience what he does. Imagine a pefectly healthy person living in a black and white room since birth. While he sleeps, someone puts a tomato in his room. In the morning he experiences red for the first time. The person has experienced color, but does he know what it is like to experience blue? No, because he never saw a blue thing in his life. You are making the same mistaken jump. From one set of experiences you believe you can understand another. It doesn't work this way.

Yes, you can imagine being a suicide bomber, but no, you will not be able to blow yourself up near a line of teenagers trying to enter a club in Gaza. The urges/feelings that you can induce in yourself are not the same urges/feelings that an extremist has. His urges/feelings are so strong they lead to action. Yours do not because they are different.

e

Al G,

You talk about the "means" to achieve your objectives. Why you use the methods and tactics you do is probably one of the greatest sources of consternation and confusion in the West. Frankly, the are viewed not only as barbaric, but also as counterproductive. As a result the focus of most Americans and others in the west is on the way you conduct your resistance and not the resistance itself. It seems to me this is a counterproductive strategy for you. You state you want to change US policy, but your tactics do nothing but reinforce and justify it in the eyes of Americans and the West.

You say other means have not worked, but the tactics you use now are not working either. I personally think you'd be much more successful taking a non-violent approach. The Christian west respects and can understand that for obvious reasons.

As it stands now, Americans are willing to forgive the Israeli's when they kill innocents because they see your tactics as worse. In the case of the recent war in Lebanon, Americans viewed your tactics as war crimes that were designed to create civilian casualties. Placing your artillery/rocket pieces next to apartment buildings is one example. If you're so concerned about your own civilians why do you not make an effort at keeping them away from the conflict? A common perception in the west is that you purposely use civilian areas and the UN compounds to complicate Israeli targeting. When the Israelis miss and civilians are killed, you cry foul but it was your own actions that placed those civilians in harms way. Leaving aside the question of cowardice for hiding behind your civilian population, such methods will garner you no support in the west. By the same token, your tactics and those used by the Intifada consistently strengthen the right-wing and marginalize the more moderate and peaceful elements in Israel. You and Hezbollah are about the best thing that ever happened to the right wing in Israel.

It's amazing you don't see the cycle this creates and don't attempt to break it.

In the last three days on MJT's blog, I think I have seen the best and the worst of the bloggosphere.

My deep respect goes out to those who are doing their best to discuss and bridge gaps and to understand. To those who are doing their best to demonize and disrupt, well, not so much.

DPU,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying consider "AlGhaliboon" as part of the "best ... of the blogosphere" whom you now "deeply respect" because he is "doing" his "best" to "bridge gaps" and "understand"?

Mr. e.,
Maybe experiences are different but human basic feelings are the same: pain = pain, and suffering = suffering. Obviously I wouldn't blow myself up in a discotheque since I'm drenched in this feeling that alternative killing (killing others i/o the responsible person) is completely, totally, for 100% WRONG. One life = one world. So, the only thing you have to do in order to 'understand' extremist's reactions (I'm not talking about notorious haters) is changing the subject into a subject that would hurt you that much that would make you 'lose it'.

So, i'm sorry to say but i'm very sure that Godforbid if someone would hurt my family i would go after him, even if it's until the end of the world.

You bet your ass, SCJ. He doesn't have to be here, he doesn't have to share his opinions with us, and whether you agree or disagree with his viewpoints, I for one appreciate being able to hear them. And it's good to see some who oppose his ideology engaging with respect.

He's also taken a great deal of abuse with dignity and without responding in kind, which is more than I would be able to do.

Al Ghaliboon,
you must be happy that there aren't a lot of Lebanese on the comments section, where you can make up some claims and assuming that they are foreign and don't know as much as you about "our" internal politics.

NO, you do NOT make up 50% of the population, not even 40%. If you truly think so, you are delusional, and need to take a deep breath and think things over.

NO, you do not represent 95% of the Shia, although you have tried so much to do that, either by intimidating the independent, or assassinating those who could be a threat (ever since the days of Mahdi Amel, Hussein Mruwwi, you even almost assassinated Fadlallah just because he refuses to be a puppet of Iran like you).

The government is not dead, because if you and the Aounists go to the streets, we, as 14 March supporters, will go to the streets, and pluck Lahoud out of his office by force, and we'll see what will happen to the country. We will not live under the Mullah's rules, just because your "sayyed"s want us to.

Stop lying to yourself, during the war on Lebanon, your Sayyed was hailing the "political resistance" of the government, and now the same government is "zionist" out of the blue. And is it only a coincidence that this happened the days after the draft of the International Tribunal was received for approval.

Grow up, and let us live.

NO, you do NOT make up 50% of the population, not even 40%. If you truly think so, you are delusional, and need to take a deep breath and think things over.
Delusional? Perhaps. Let us have a census and determine this once and for all. What are you afraid of?

NO, you do not represent 95% of the Shia, although you have tried so much to do that
I think our election results have been clear. I also think it is clear how the so-called ruling "majority" came to power. You bet: our voice. Funny how they backstabbed us. They can await for our goodwill for a thousand years, and we can assure them they will not get it. Ever. Again. Period, new line. We also know how many people responded to our call for the victory rally, or the March 8 rally. Zoom out (your camera lenses), as they say.

The government is not dead
The government IS dead. Particularly so because the government is ILLEGAL, and in violation of the constitution. The government is dead because it is not up to Mr. Siniora to sign the decree for accepting our resignation. The government IS dead because the government does not represent more than 200,000 Druze and 1 million Sunnis.

You will live under the rule of the majority whether you like it or not. You are free to emigrate if you do not like it. Or join the opposition.

If the government is not dead, why do you care WHEN our ministers resigned?

NO, you do NOT make up 50% of the population, not even 40%. If you truly think so, you are delusional, and need to take a deep breath and think things over.

Surely someone somewhere must have a reliable estimate of this that can be linked to. Or, if not, I don't understand why opposing parties are making such definitive-sounding claims.

On what basis are the 50+ and <40% claims being made?

Mr. AlGhaliboon, your organization doesn't really see the difference between the IDF and civilians? (that came to the fence). "We" civilians wanted to reach out and touch... It was "us" civilians that got Israel outta Lebanon in the end... "our" pressure was weighing in. You MUST see the difference?

This whole discussion about reminds me of a bit from a comic, Pearls Before Swine. One of the characters is a Zebra, who can't understand why the lions keep eating his fellow Zebras. So, he writes a letter to the lions filled with philosophical questions about peace, understanding and the nature of being, asking why can't they all get along, why can't they be friends..

The answer comes back from the lions "we eat Zebras becuz you taste gud."

One of the main reasons why we've been so ineffective against Islamofascists is the fact that we allow ourselves to be distracted by their propaganda and by our own desire for peace. We don't pay enough attention to their goals and their actions.

If we listen to their propaganda, we're dealing with a group of people who are motivated by religion and philosophy.

If we pay attention to Hezboallah's actions, we realize that we're dealing with a bunch of gangsters. They're well-organized gangsters, funded by millions in oil money, but they're gangsters all the same. They want more money and power (as much as they can get), and they use guns to get them. Some are knuckle draggers and some wear suits and move money, propaganda and religious dogma around.

If we try to compare Lebanese politics to our own political system, we're confused. If we compare Lebanese politics to the mob wars in Italy, Russia, Ireland or New York, they makes a lot of sense. You have some families, and some groups who ally with other families and groups when it's convenient for them. They all want a bigger slice of the pie. You've got some pro-democracy types fighting for the rule of law.

All groups put family/community first, but most are willing to make deals - unless they have more guns or money than the rest.

There are also 'holy men' who lie about their motivations, who dupe gullible people into being martyrs. They're at war with us, lying and deceiving is their job. They fight with us because they want what we've got. It's our job not to be fooled by them - or by ourselves.

I guess I'll never really understand what has become a truly widespread phenomenon:

How self-described "leftists" can somehow figure out the dangers of religious fundamentalism when it comes from the New Testament, but somehow are fairly blind to it when it comes out of the Quran.

My guess is because of racist/white guilt reasons: "they're brown," "they're poor," "they're uneducated," "they're oppressed," etc... and/or the coolest one: "they hate America/U.K. and so they're our new allies against the scourge of capitalism."

I also thinking you're overstating the level of abuse he's taken. As a proud member of a religious fundamentalist organization whose two chief slogans are "Death to Israel" and "Death to America," I would have suspected he'd be subject to a lot more, especially since most people here are Americans who do not wish to see their own country, or Israel, die.

And if you honestly - rather than just rhetorically - believe that portions of this exchange over the last several days represents "the worst of the blogosphere," then you I would say you probably haven't read to many blogs with wide readership. But I think that you have read a lot of the bigger blogs - which is why I think you've quite unfairly characterized his situation.

How self-described "leftists" can somehow figure out the dangers of religious fundamentalism when it comes from the New Testament, but somehow are fairly blind to it when it comes out of the Quran.

I do hope this fantasy is not being projected on me.

Double-Plus-Ungood,

The last census in Lebanon was in 1932. The Maronites (Christians) constantly opposed this for DECADES afterwards, because a census would dispel the myth of Christian majority (or at least parity) on the demographic level and consequently the confessional system would have to be re-modelled to make the system representative. Now, all of them (Sunnis, Maronites, Druze) are against it. Every time we mention the issue of census, they reject it, saying it will create instability and hurt the "delicate confessional balance". At any rate, the 50% figure is based on analysis based on fertility rate, emigration date, etc. with the 1932 census being the starting point. Our fertility rates are almost double that of Christians, and 1 child/woman more than Sunnis. Do the calculations over 74 years. We also have lower emigration rates than Christians and Sunnis. You will see that we make up not just 50% of the population of Lebanon today, but much more than that. Anyhow, if they did not know this were the truth they would not objected to it.

No, Mary. I was asking this to Mr. AlGhaliboon, as a person, a human being, not placing him in a group, since groups are made up of individuals, and he is an individual. Unfortunately, he did not respond :(

Okay, that explains the 50% or more estimate, but I would think that the margin of error could be quite high.

Anyhow, if they did not know this were the truth they would not objected to it.

Object to a census being taken? Or object to the claim? I think that people would object to the claim if they thought it incorrect.

And wouldn't voter registration provide a raesonable estimate of population?

Tsedek, asking me what?

DPU,

No, it's not. But you're being awfully nice to someone who's lying if he tells you that he looks at you as anything else than an athiest infidel kuffar.

And speaking of fantasy, the amount of deference you give him as some kind of "bridge builder" is quite fantastic.

Not swearing and uttering an ignorant phrase about the "irony" of having better dialogue with Israelis than Americans hardly makes a bridge builder who's out for common understanding.

But you're being awfully nice to someone who's lying if he tells you that he looks at you as anything else than an athiest infidel kuffar.

The fact that I am not screaming insults seems to be offending a lot of people. Why is that?

~~~Tsedek, asking me what?~~~

Mr. AlGhaliboon, see my post of 09:18, please.

Yes, the margin of error could be high; however, 50% is the middle ground already, i.e. taking into consideration the margin of error.

No, they object to having a census. It seems the Sunnis want to naturalize the Palestinians to make up for their demographic losses to us.

Voter registration would not really show the real demographic balance because it would not take into consideration those who are not eligible to vote; the Shi'ite population is a very young population.

DPU,

I'll answer your disengenous question with one of my own:

Since when do "leftists" prize civility over vigorous and spirited discourse?

When did that happen?

I haven't called him one name, but I have said that that he's full of it, and attempted (you may disagree) to back those statements up. Yet I get the feeling I'm being lumped in with your "worst of the blogosphere" comment - perhaps because the other day I didn't want to sit around while he dissembled about whether or not America is Hizballah's enemy?

(Hint: the "Death to America" rallies give it away).

Yes, the margin of error could be high; however, 50% is the middle ground already, i.e. taking into consideration the margin of error.

No, they object to having a census. It seems the Sunnis want to naturalize the Palestinians to make up for their demographic losses to us.

Voter registration would not really show the real demographic balance because it would not take into consideration those who are not eligible to vote; the Shi'ite population is a very young population.

And speaking of fantasy, the amount of deference you give him as some kind of "bridge builder" is quite fantastic.

The phrase was used also in reference to Tsedek. But why do you suppose that AlGhaliboon is posting here, answering questions, and asking questions of his own?

Also, if you think that he's a liar, why are you even here? What is the point in exchanging dialog with someone you think is lying?

And speaking of fantasy, the amount of deference you give him as some kind of "bridge builder" is quite fantastic.

The phrase was used also in reference to Tsedek. But why do you suppose that AlGhaliboon is posting here, answering questions, and asking questions of his own?

Also, if you think that he's a liar, why are you even here? What is the point in exchanging dialog with someone you think is lying?

Dammit. I knew that was going to happen. Apologies for the duplicate comment.

Is it just me, or is Michael's comment window running really slowly today?

Mertel, how do you know (or think you know) AlGhaliboon and Dan Marsden are the same person?

Since when do "leftists" prize civility over vigorous and spirited discourse?

First of all, why the scare quotes?

Secondly, how the hell would I know?

I haven't called him one name, but I have said that that he's full of it, and attempted (you may disagree) to back those statements up. Yet I get the feeling I'm being lumped in with your "worst of the blogosphere" comment - perhaps because the other day I didn't want to sit around while he dissembled about whether or not America is Hizballah's enemy?

I wasn't lumping you in.

Tsedek,
"So, i'm sorry to say but i'm very sure that Godforbid if someone would hurt my family i would go after him, even if it's until the end of the world."

No you won't. The Americans for just reasons killed many innocent children in Hiroshima. Not one of the surviving parents attacked an American even though they had ample opportunity. There is not one documented case of a Holocaust survior attemptng to kill German kids because their parents were Nazis. The German survivors in Dresden who lost most of their families did not attack Americans and Brits. It is evident from the interviews with the family members of the victims of the recent Gaza tragedy that they are very upset and enraged, but that it is very unlikely they will become suicide bombers or martyrs. After a while, normal people channel their rage to more productive things. Abnormal people don't.

e

I should add, Mertel, that I found evidence on the Internet via IP Address tracking that they are, indeed, the same person. I have access to data that he doesn't know I have, and I have been digging into the code of other Web sites that is not visible to the eye or to browsers.

The phrase was used also in reference to Tsedek..

She definitely is attempting to be a bridge builder, and, if you read my conversation with her, you will see that I both "hope she is right" and I wished her luck.

But why do you suppose that AlGhaliboon is posting here, answering questions, and asking questions of his own?

I'm not sure. But I suppose I have yet to read anything that leads me to believe that he's a bridge builder.

Also, if you think that he's a liar, why are you even here?

Well, the few times I engaged in direct conversation with him, it was to demonstrate that he was lying. Which I believe I did.

The other reason to be here is to talk to other people engaged in this thread and discuss where they are coming from. Yes, this thread is about this Hizballah guy - but as with any other thread on the blogosphere - other people can (and do) engage in cross talk. That happens all the time in the blogosphere, no?

I determined yesterday that he was less than honest, and as a result, the overwhelming majority of my posts on this thread have been directed towards other poeple, yourslef included (only one at him, I believe, when he pulled another Godwin with his stupid and insulting "never again" reference).

So there you have it.

Michael, for the record it was Eye Spy who made those allegations not me. But it is fascinating. I did note that he didn't exactly outright deny it.

So, Alghaliboon, are you, or have you ever been, Dan Marsden?

No, Mary. I was asking this to Mr. AlGhaliboon, as a person, a human being, not placing him in a group, since groups are made up of individuals, and he is an individual.

Given the Dan Marsden discussion above, Mr. AlGhaliboon may be more than one individual.

First of all, why the scare quotes?

I guess because I don't think I've ever met a leftist who valued civility above argument. Nor do I think it should when the discussion involves an illiberal relgious fundamentalist (misogynist, homophobe, etc...) member of a kill cult.

But to each their own.

I wasn't lumping you in.

My apologies, then. Sorry.

Mertel,

I already answered that question as "e" inquired. Scroll up for the details.

The answer is an absolute no. And this is the last I will say about this.

AlG,

Twice now you have expressed surprise that Israelis are more willing to talk to you and understand you than (many) Americans.

This does not surprise me in the least. I know many many many Israelis personally, and as you know I have visited their country in times of peace and war. Israelis are widely misunderstood all over the world, and personal contact with them reveals their true nature in a way that reading about them never can. This is true of all people and all countries in the world, of course.

I am happy to watch you learn a bit about them. They are more reasonable than they appear when you are on the receiving end of their weapons. Perhaps you will remember that if and when you get tired of fighting.

would Samir Kuntar get jailed if he were to be returned to the hizb for committing a haram crime?
I would hope so. But it is not up to us to jail him, because we do not have separate legal procedures.

I don't know about the prisoners your hold that have been maltreated while in captivity
There have been none.

Of course we see a difference between the IDF & civilians. But you answered it yourself; in times of war the conscience is hardened.

I guess because I don't think I've ever met a leftist who valued civility above argument.

There can be no discussion without civility. Those who are only interested in contradiction place no value in civility, because all they want to hear themselves yell louder than the other guy.

While I'm a leftist (former anarchist, now left-leaning social democrat) and an atheist, I count among my friends evangelical Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Sikhs, Muslims, and conservatives of all stripes. I'm interested in what they all have to say and think, even if I think it wrong. But I won't hear it if I'm rude to them.

Mr. Totten,

First of all I would ask you to post the proof that I am who you are claiming I am, here, so that we can all see it.

Second - you are right of course. I have met Israelis myself, though not in the region. All of us have found it rather difficult to discuss the conflict, but have agreed that often those who are removed from it (for example, someone sitting miles away with no clue about the historical grudges that pit one group against the other in this region) are the most radically dedicated to one cause or the other. I think it's a scary phenomenon; incidentally, this is one of the aspects of my insistence that we - all of us, including the Israelis - are better off left to ourselves to solve our problems. I think interference, whatever noble agenda it has behind it, has been and will continue to be quite harmful.

Mr. e.,
I must insist I know myself better than you do LOL -

of course I wouldn't kill innocent people, which was the case if any japanese would kill american civilians for dropping the a-bomb on hiroshima, but you can deny it that pleases you, I would most certainly make sure a person who would be directly responsible for any damage to my family would deeply regret it (to put it mildly).

Maybe i'm abnormal in your book ...

Mr. AlGhaliboon,

this very thing:

~~~that we - all of us, including the Israelis - are better off left to ourselves to solve our problems. ~~~

I've been claiming all the time. The interference of outsiders just keeps spinning this conflict outta context and further away and leaves the people directly involved as puppets on strings of people that can reflect their ideals from cosy armchairs while not having to live it, let alone die for...

(I had already written this comment, but one way or another I got a white screen when I wanted to post it)

Mary, I'm not really interested in who Mr. AlGhaliboon is rather in what he has to say :)

alghaliboon, what is hezbollahs position regarding the Rotary Club and/or Freemasons?

tsedek,

you're such a yenta. phooey.

Tsedek,
"of course I wouldn't kill innocent people"
This is my whole point. Extremists will. You are not an extremist and can't understand them. If Hosni Mubarak would give an order to shoot a missle at Israel and it killed your family who would you hold responsible and go till the ends of the world to punish? Egypt? Mubarak? His generals? Any Egyptian? Now compare this to the HA attitude. Is it the same?
e

AG,

I don't have proof, and I am not claiming you are that person. I have evidence, which is different. And I won't make any actual accusation without knowing more than I do.

Anyway, you don't gain or lose any "points" for being Dan Marsden or not. It's just an interesting detail, if true.

I've got a question. Maybe someone (Lebanese preferably) can answer this:

how many actual 'fighters' does the hizb have? what the percent of lebanese people fighting in the hizb?

Who Ali G is? Who the fuck cares.

What he has to say?
I can't believe that I wasted so much time looking at his string of tripe.

It has nothing to do with communcation. He just loves this. This is not politics or discussion or heaven forbid, some deep insight into the enemy. This nerd just loves to think that he is just soooo eloquent and urbane.

Look at all the space that this jack-ass has occupied and the pompous, noblesse oblige dicta undulating from his ass.

Self-indulgent, adolescent and callow.

He is just a little boy who thinks he is just soooo important.

Who Ali G is? Who the fuck cares.

What he has to say?
I can't believe that I wasted so much time looking at his string of tripe.

It has nothing to do with communcation. He just loves this. This is not politics or discussion or heaven forbid, some deep insight into the enemy. This nerd just loves to think that he is just soooo eloquent and urbane.

Look at all the space that this jack-ass has occupied and the pompous, noblesse oblige dicta undulating from his ass.

Self-indulgent, adolescent and callow.

He is just a little boy who thinks he is just soooo important.

Who Ali G is? Who the fuck cares.

What he has to say?
I can't believe that I wasted so much time looking at his string of tripe.

It has nothing to do with communcation. It's masterbation. This is not politics or discussion or heaven forbid, some deep insight into the enemy. This nerd just loves to think that he is just soooo eloquent and urbane.

Look at all the space that this jack-ass has occupied and the pompous, noblesse oblige dicta undulating from his ass.

Self-indulgent, adolescent and callow.

He is just a little boy who thinks he is just soooo important.

Tsedek,

The number is confidential, and fighters and those with internal knowledge of Hizbullah are under oath and strictly prohibited from giving out such info (which is actually part of the council because it forms part of the party's strategic and tactical policy). However, the known figure is somewhere around 3,000 fighters divided into different levels and units.

Mr. Totten,

What exactly is the difference between evidence and proof? I am not sure. Perhaps you could elaborate. Anyhow, I did not say that you accused me of it - not that I care if anyone does, though I find it amusing - but it seemed that a number of people were implying that it would make a difference, which smells of having an agenda (call me paranoid if you will, with all my talk of hidden agendas!).

By the way, I must thank you for giving us the space for this discussion.

Actually ankhfkhonsu - and I know you don't give a damn, but i will say it anyway, it's not Ali G, it's AlGhaliboon, so the correct shortened form would be AlG or whatever variation you want to use. Bottom line being: my name is not Ali.

I am sure however that this mistake of yours is the result of you having read too much of what I have written.

Thank you, Mr. AlGhaliboon.

Alg, will you answer my question posted at 11:47?

If AlGhaliboon is Dan Marsden, then all of his talk about how I should understand him in order to understand my enemy is pretty silly. Mixed up westerners who become radical Muslims and join terrorist organizations may a topic of interest to the security services, but it's an awfully marginal group. I want to know how large masses of people are thinking not, say, six fingered lesbian dwarves.

Although he is interesting just as a member of Hezbollah whoes first language is English. And who knows, culture at times seems like such simple monkey see monkey do silliness that perhaps it IS possible for some westerner to absorb most of it if he want to deeply enough.

Josh,
I don't have any evidence either way about Al's indentity but perhaps people more knowledgeable can comment about the level of his English. Is it college level? Is it American English or English English? How many years of schooling in English do you need to reach this level of written English, etc.?

I agree that debating with a fringe element of western society is not that interesting. It is like talking to the anthropologist instead of the native.

e

I suppose it was unfair of me to call Dan a westerner, since he did grow up in Beirut. That also argues for him understanding the culture better than a westerner would.

Actually Ali, you will always be Ali G, although not remotely as entertaining.

And no, habibi, there were no mistakes made from reading so much of your drivel.

As a result of the verbose and repetitive nature of your profound dissertations, it was actually child's play to pick through such voluminous dross.

Do keep up the wanking, old boy, I hear that Noam Chomsky is looking for a teaching assistant.

Ta Ta

I haven't been paying close attention, but yes it's college level, and rather generic. Maybe it's Canadian English, that would strike me as generic since I grew up in Canada.

What exactly is the difference between evidence and proof?

"Evidence" suggests a thing might be true (and might not be true.) "Proof" demonstrates that a thing is, in fact, true.

I don't know if your real name is Dan or not, and I won't think more or less of you either way. It is nice to know someone's real identity, though. You know mine.

See above I must say, your understanding of "threatening" and "threat" is quite astonishing, even for someone like us, whose native language is not English.

He's claiming that English is not his native language, and he's using the royal "we"!

Mr. Totten,

I have given this charge / accusation more attention than it required and deserved; I have already answered the accusation when I did not have to. I do not feel the need to elaborate further on who I am, and that is a choice that people ought to respect, as I respect their choice to do the same. The little that I did say, I said it to satisfy the curiosity without giving away my much-valued privacy. Others who have now jumped on this bandwagon after they were done jumping onto other bandwagons have not felt the need to share their identity, nor the need to inquire about mine until now - when they wholeheartedly and unquestioningly accepted this accusation and almost asked me to disprove that I am NOT who they are convinced I am. This is riduculous. Whoever has proof, let him post it. Speculation seems to be the name of the game here. Speculation passed off as facts and consequent demands for debunking these assertions. This is something I am not willing to do. Frankly, I have given this discussion too much of my time in between tasks and religious and other duties, but I am not willing to participate in a game of proving and disproving of identities. If this is the new and final direction of this thread, I would have to respectfully bow out, and leave the field to all those who wish to speculate and counter-speculate. Maybe basking in their speculative victory would finally soothe their otherwise shattered and warn-out egoes.

Maybe basking in their speculative victory would finally soothe their otherwise shattered and warn-out egoes.

When random blog commentors win the arab-israeli conflict, you'll be the first to know...

Oh my poor shattered ego, damn that smarts!

Al,
You didn't explain the process by which the Israelis will agree to the return of the Palestinian refugees. Describe to me the scenario you envision please.
e

~~~I would have to respectfully bow out, and leave the field ~~~

Pity.

Is there no other place this sort of discussion w/o the personal accusations can be held?

And while we're on the topic of your damand for the right of return, perhaps you'll respond to the little article I wrote in response to your demand

My thesis being that the "right of return", if granted, would lead to extreme sectarian violence within Israel's neighborhoods - just like the violence that we're seeing in Iraq. And so it is not morally acceptable to be fighting for this, you're just giving the Israelis the choice between terror of war and even greater terror of sectarian conflict.

Tsedek,
Al is a regular on www.lfpm.org . I am sure he would be happy to continue the discussion there.
e

Thank you, Mr. e.

Now that I looked over there and what he writes I see that discussion is quite senseless:

~~~Israel is an entity that we do not recognize because it is unjust. The israelis are both Jews and zionists, but our problem is not iwth their Jewishness. Anyway, no we are not going to kill millions of these people; they should peacefully dismantle their racist state and accept living with us as equals.~~~

Pity. Once again...

Tsedek,

You may e-mail me if you wish.

e,

The process? Simple. First, a joint committee possibly with the participation of a neutral third party would be formed. The committee would calculate the claims of that Jews from a particular Arab country that the Palestinians are moving to Israel from, and would come up with the amount of money needed to be paid in reparations to these people. Simultaneously the agreement would be signed, which would allow for a phased return of the refugees from that particular country, maybe in batches of 5,000-10,000 refugees. If at any point the process goes wrong, either party has the right to halt the process, freezing funds transfer (which would also be phased) or freezing the acceptance of the refugees.

tsedek,

Tven for the "erudite" ones, there can be Arab states and there can be Muslim states. But there cannot be a Jewish state. Apparently Israel is the only country in the entire Middle East that needs to be politically organized like Canada or America. But all other states should be as ethnically Arab and religiously Muslim as possible (even the "secular," "socialist" countries in the Middle East are members of the OIC).

Even the non-religious fanatics pushing the newfound "apartheid" comparison refuse to reflect on the blatant ethno-religio-exclusionary practices common in the Middle East which leads to the official names of countries such as "Arab Republic of Egypt" and "Syrian Arab Republic."

Once you come to the sad understanding that even the moderates on that side are perfectly happy with the major regional international organization referring to itself as "The Arab League" as opposed to "The Middle East League," you will - again, sadly - understand the blatant hypocrisy and inherent racism of their position.

Now, I have no problem with the idea of an "Arab League" in theory, but for the fact that so many of its constituents, including your jihadi pal, seem to be blatant hypocrites.

Al,
I explained that Israel does not agree to the return of even one refugee to the 48 borders. You are negotiating with yourself. What is the process if Israel does not agree to accept any refugee?
e

Now, I have no problem with the idea of an "Arab League" in theory, but for the fact that so many of its constituents, including your jihadi pal, seem to be blatant hypocrites.

Pal?

What is the process if Israel does not agree to accept any refugee?
There is no process without willingness to compromise.

What's the point in talking if it's only to postpone the shooting?

Al,
That is the one point Israel will not compromise on. You have your limits, we have ours. Can you accept peace without the right of return?
e

DPU,

I could have called him something much less civil than that, no?

Tsedek,
check out another gem of his:

"The Jews have not been great examples of tolerance in human history. In fact, they are probably one of the worst, if not the worst."

See for yourself, post 54 on the following link:
http://www.lfpm.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20318&page=6

When asked about it he defended this as true. It is in one of the threads.

e

Mr. e., that is not true. I know and have heard many a times that Israel would be willing to absorb certain amounts of refugees would that be agreed upon beforehand (like: NOT given the choice - automatically in hands of the Palestinian refugees)

I know, Mr. e. But that is of a different calibre than not recognizing Israel's existence as the sample I gave above. Mr. Alghaliboon is most certainly not the only one having those views on Israeli strategies, I can assure you. But, that's something that can be overcome - if there are grounds to proceed in a positive way (which there are not if the very existence of Israel is not recognized).
If Germany and France can be partners in the european union after their fierceful history of wars - then I do believe that other countries (when recognized) stand a chance as well....

Tsedek,
Racism is racism. Maybe you think antisemites are not that bad and can be reasoned with. I don't.
I am Israeli and for me and many others it is a principle that not one refugee will return to the 48 borders. End of story. If after peace is signed Israel wants to accept a few thousand, it won't bother me, but only after the peace agreement and not as any condition for peace. All the rest is negotiable. For me this issue is not.

e

AlG, you said:
"I also have knowledge of some things that supporters otherwise do not."

Should you be bragging about it then?

About the Palestinian refugees, you consider it an imperative that they be disarmed, and that they do not become naturalized. I believe these are reasonable concerns, but don't you think allowing them decent living conditions (instead of penning them into squalid camps where 'permanent constructions are not allowed') would go a long way towards bringing about such disarmament?

Still on the subject of the Palestinians, why should they settle in a country to which they (obviously, and rightly) hold no allegiance? Because a corolary of the implementation of the 'right of return' is that they would have to somehow become Israelis. Since we both seem to agree that there should be an independent Palestine alongside Israel, to me its obvious that these people should return (or go) to their own country, not to that of their erstwhile enemies, even if their ancestors happened to have lived there.

The two sides could agree on compensations, and even on the acceptance of the RoR in principle but not in practice (i.e., agree that although thae have a right to go back to their former homes, these no longer exist in any meaningful way, so they'll get the next best thing: to go back to their own homeland with an apology and enough money to start over). Whaddyathink?

and that they do not become naturalized. I believe these are reasonable concerns

Why is keeping people in camps indefinately "reasonable" when middle eastern states do it. It would be called a human rights violation (and an outrage) anywhere else in the world. Why the lower standard for Muslims?

Read the rest of the comment Josh.

It is reasonable not to grant these Palestinians Lebanese citizenship. It is reasonable not to want Palestinian militias running around with guns (or Shiite ones for that matter, although AlG would surely disagree). It is not reasonable (as I say right afterwards) to keep them 'like neglected zoo animals', as MJT once put it.

As a result of the nature of the Lebanese system, the Palestinians in Lebanon can't and won't ever be naturalized...EVER. Henry Kissinger wanted it back in the day and never got it to happen, and neither will anyone else. This has nothing to do with the right of return issue. They can never become Lebanese citizens, period. So let's move on to other topics.

Omega80,
The Palestinians are living in Lebanon 3 generations. In 20 years, very few would not have been born there. They are in fact Lebanese of Palestinian origin and not Palestinians. If you don't want to be an apartheid state with all the consequences, you better start figuring out soon what you want to do with them.
e

This has nothing to do with the right of return issue. They can never become Lebanese citizens, period. So let's move on to other topics.

"They can never become Lebanese citizens, period," because...? Why?

Look nothing is EVER possible in the middle east. War can never end, peace can never come, oppression can never end, democracy will never happen, freedom is impossible, people will never stop teaching their children to hate... If I except any one of the myriad normally expected virtues that are a given every where else in the world, but somehow impossible in the middle east, then I have to accept them all, that you aren't human and there will never be any improvement.

I don't accept that, obviously.

After all there would be no middle east conflict if it wasn't some monstrous given that the Palestinians will always be second class citizens in every country (except Israel after you destroy it, of course).

Omega: As a result of the nature of th