the government will bend (again), surprised

I don't know what to expect either, nor what to wish for.

Hezbo sucks, Aoun is lost, and the stupid gvmnt deserves zero sympathy and got it coming. (Bear in mind the US elections results probably emboldened HA and their masters).

My only spiteful wish now, is for Prez Lahoud and Speaker Berry to get it up the behind.

The government is dead.

New elections.

New election law.

End of Ta'ef and its favouritism.

Disarmament of Palestinians.

Why were Amal and Hizballah in the cabinet to begin with? Doesn't the Rafik list control 72 of 128 seats in the parliament through 2009? Is there, contrary to what I've heard, more than token support from Shiites for parties other than Amal/Hezb?

Isn't the idea that there must always be Shiites in the government at all times a throwback to the old confessional system?

On the other hand, with Shiite Lebanon in pieces, is there any realistic expectation that the government will reconstruct that place without Shiite participation in government?

Besides, what's the big deal about a 33% Hizballah veto, anyway? Seriously, what exactly is it that an independent observer expects the Hariri government to do, that Hizballah feels a need to veto? Put Bashir Assad on trial in absentia?

Last, but not least, if Shiites make up well over 35% of the population, how did the Rafik Hariri movement gain 72 Parliamentary seats, anyway?

I will not even guess what might happen next.

How about, a lot of hand-wringing, posturing, and confrontation, followed by the effective maintenance of the status quo?

The idea that you can't run the government without Shiite representation is an illusion. The question is whether it's a genuinely good idea to try to do so, to which the answer seems a lot like, "no."
So the Future Movement will demonstrate that they can do it, and Hezb will demonstrate that it's a bad idea, and they'll all go back to papering it over.

Glasnost,

What do you mean by the old confessional system? Lebanon still has a confessional (consociational) system.

An overwhelming majority of Shi'ites support either Amal or Hizbullah. At any rate, our support is far more distributed in that respect than those of other sects.

We make up more than 50% of Lebanon's population, not just 35%.

The issue is not about Shi'ite representation at all. You are misinformed about the Lebanese internal politics.

What happens next is that Saniora approves the tribunal in the government thus calling HA's bluff. HA is not ready for another violent confrontation just yet and in any case a coup will land Lebanon in the dumpster. HA will have to take care of $40B of debt and reconstruction together with severe economic sanctions. Aoun as a front will not fool anybody. If Saniora keeps his nerve, he can pull this through. HA and Aoun are bluffing and he knows it.

e

Oh come on, Guess what will happen next. You have one chance in a million to be correct, just like the rest of us, but we don't have "expertise" formed from growing up in that area of the world.

No we are not bluffing. We seek an end to coruption and nepotism in Lebanon. The "March 14" is the same faces that collaborated with the Syrian occuption, just recycled a little bit mainly for U.S. and French support.

We support the formation of the International Tribunal. However, we also want a non-corrupt government, an audit to find out over the last 16 years who stole what exactly and hold them accountable, and a new, fair electoral law. However, the reason why they fear us is because if the truth came out about how stole what, 90% of "March 14" will be shown to have their hands dirty.

I'm probably taking the bait so that he can spout another propanda line off his list of talking points, but can anyone figure out why our friendly neighborhood Hezbollah spokesman tacked "Disarmament of Palestinians" onto the end of his post?

By the way, for those who aren't still reading those threads below, I made a little observation about AlGhaliboon's demands over on my blog (click my name below).

AG: We make up more than 50% of Lebanon's population, not just 35%.

No you don't.

can anyone figure out why our friendly neighborhood Hezbollah spokesman tacked "Disarmament of Palestinians" onto the end of his post?

They're Sunni? (I admit that's a guess, and he probably won't admit that if I'm right. But my hunch is that's the real reason.)

Not to bring up goodwin, but damn Lebanon you are making a huge mistake. Good luck either way.

Omega80,

What I meant that HA is bluffing about using force and instigating a civil war. Yes, you will mount great demonstrations and March 14 will mount anti-demonstrations just as big, but without using force, you cannot dislodge the current government because it has massive international backing. If HA attempt anything close to a coup and succeed, it will put Lebanon in the dumpster even if the front for this travesty is Aoun. You just cannot afford economic sanctions and loss of international support (unless you think the support of Iran and Syria is enough).

e

They're Sunni?

That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe he's complaining that disarming Hezbollah will, in effect, be disarming Palestine. Still I don't understand what this has to do with Hezbollah quitting the government.

I guess I'm just dense, I don't understand his statement or your take on it.

Josh,

If there is a civil war in Lebanon, Sunni and Shia will massacre each other. Palestinians are armed and Sunni.

When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the Shia of South Lebanon hailed the Israelis as liberators against Sunni/Palestinian oppression.

AG is right that Israel's terrible behavior in Lebanon at the time turned the Shia against them. (Iran also came in and stirred them up.) Israel has never learned how to deal with Lebanon. Their entire strategy is and has been broken.

Mr. Totten,

Yes, we do make up 50% of the population, and that's being generous to the rest. But I realize that it's a bit difficult to swallow for those who hail the 1932 census as the solution to Lebanon's problems.

Regarding the disarmament of Palestinians, it is a prerequisite for our disarmament for a number of reasons. It makes no sense to disarm a Lebanese faction when you have armed non-Lebanese factions in and OUT of the camps, especially so when the Lebanese army is incapable of actually defending Lebanon from Israel. Should we disarm before these people are disarmed, and should they hurl a rocket across the border (and the security forces have shown inability to stop rockets from being thrown around in Beirut), we would in effect taking ourselves back to 1978 and 1982.

As for the person who stated we are bluffing on the use of force, where/when did we threaten to use force?

should they hurl a rocket across the border (and the security forces have shown inability to stop rockets from being thrown around in Beirut), we would in effect taking ourselves back to 1978 and 1982.

No, you did not just say that with a straight face. Did you?

Whatever you mean by that?

Heh, I just noticed the update you had made on the post;

We've got plenty of Shia we can appoint to fill their positions
Way to go. If they happen to find those "plenty of Shia" (I think they rather meant, plenty of opportunists), they might want to review the history of Shi'ite politicization and realize that at no point will our people accept the return to power of the elite Shi'ite families. Welcome to the Sunni mentality; that we, the Shi'ites, are supposed to be always subordinated to their rule. It seems they cannot get over the fact that we survived history, their mass-murdering caliphs, and Israel (twice - between 1982 and 2000, and in 2006).

and we'll give Aoun positions in the government if he wants them.
I find it amusing that they paint General Aoun as someone who is after positions in the government. If General Aoun were after that, he would've done it a long time ago. I find it amusing that these people think they can reflect their desires on others, and still expect to sound reasonable. They think that just because they are only after money and power, others are too. Thus, they base everything on speculation, to fit every single phenomenon into this neatly-designed explanation.

That way, it will be the entire nation against Hezbollah and Amal.
These people are living in a dream. They are living in a dream especially because - either knowingly or not, though I tend to think it's deliberate - they are convinced (or pretend to be) that we, Hizbullah and Amal do not represent the majority of Shi'ites (we represent AT LEAST 95% of Shi'ites, that's being generous to the rest). Consequently what they are aiming at, and what they aimed at during the war (and this was, to their distress, countered by General Aoun and his party, FPM), is marginalizing the entire Shi'ite sect because we refuse to play second-fiddle to them and demand to be treated as equals (guess that word doesn't exist in Sunni dictionary). This is what they tried to do with the Christians when General Aoun refused to play along and give in to their blackmails, and they propped up war criminal Samir Geagea as the so-called representative of the Christians. So by no means are we the first. Unfortunately, we had counted on their goodwill, but their good will was not forthcoming in the biggest of humannitarian crises in Lebanon's recent history. The Sunnis want to rule the country. I'm beginning to think that U.S policy is such that it will reward the Sunnis by giving them Lebanon in return for toppling Sunni dictatorial rule in Iraq.

Lebanon will never be controlled by Sunnis - or by any one group for that matter. These people are playing with fire.

Weren't the shia's and sunnies in Lebanon killing each-other way before 1978 and 1982?

Lebanon will never be controlled by Sunnis - or by any one group for that matter. These people are playing with fire.

OOOO! OOOOO! Mr. Kotter! Mr. Kotter! Pick me, I know what the anwser!

Ahem, they're treating you like slaves, and you'll make them sorry.

[bows to applause] Thank you, thank you1

AG: Whatever you mean by that?

You are severely irony-impaired if you, a member of Hezbollah, are worried about Palestinians firing rockets at Israel and inviting another invasion.

You know what else, AG? A lot of us (me anyway) would sympathize a lot more with your complaints against the Israelis and the Sunnis (many of which are legitimate, in my opinion) if you would find a more mature and, yes, civilized method of redress.

Mr. Totten,

Are you saying that Palestinians and Lebanese are the same?

Furthermore, are you saying that we actually hurled a rocket as a provocation rather than retaliation?

If so, please revise your facts.

At any rate, focusing on a secondary point proves the weakness of those who refuse to see the legitimacy of the calls for the disarmament of Palestinians before anyone else. For that matter, I would say that the disarmament of the Salafis in the north is on an equal footing. Unless you are only worried about Israel's "right to self-defense" (which would not be surprising and indeed would support our assertion that you only aspire to do Israel, and no one else, a service by calling for our disarmament, because frankly we have not seen you or those who espouse your positions call for the disarmament of Palestinians and Salafis - indeed, it seems that this issue is deliberately glossed over by western governments, so systematically that we are left wondering if they do have a hidden agenda, which they often have been proven to have).

please revise your facts.

"Revise your facts," that's Orwellian.

AG, I would love to see the disarmament of the Palestinians and the Salafists. But you Hezbollah are far more likely to blow up a bunch of shit in the near future. So pretty much the entire world beyond Syria and Iran (not just the Zionist Entity and the US with its "hidden agenda") would like to see you guys become a civilized political party instead of the thugs you are.

We're all tired of your bullshit. We're all tired of having to send soldiers from all over the world to clean up your mess.

~~~Ahem, they're treating you like slaves, and you'll make them sorry.~~~

Mr. Josh Scholar, why are you denegrading the single most important thing people (oppressed people) relate to?? Are you really that ignorant that oppression is the main cause for social unrest and public sympathy for those pretending to represent them while in fact those leaders are only running after power?

No one is talking about using violence, and violence is unacceptable by any side. If "March 14" want to solve the problem, let them institute a fair electoral law and have new elections, then if they win the majority for real we will gladly assume our role as the opposition until the next election time.

However, such a thing will never happen. They want to monopolize power in Lebanon, and it seems they haven't learned that power can't be monopolized in Lebanon for very long because of the nature of the system there, which is based on a very delicate balance of power.

It is very disheartening for someone in the FYO to say that they want to isolate Hezbollah and Amal, because they are basically saying that they want to isolate Shias in Lebanon. With the very delicate nature of our sectarian system, this is very irresponsible.

To be honest, I disagree with the timing of the resignations, because I feel that they should have occured after the tribunal issue was voted and agreed on as not to have them try and distract the people from the real issues at stake here by saying that we wish to distrupt the tribunal, which is far from the truth.

Thus, while some want to push the Shias in Lebanon into a corner, thus leading Lebanon to a catastrophe, we wish to bring them to the center by showing them that we care about them since they are fellow Lebanese and that they have a stake in Lebanon as much as we do. Some people have to be reminded that Lebanon is not Saudi Arabia and will never be ruled by one family. However, by their actions it seems this is what they are trying to achieve. They want to cancel everyone out of the equation.

"AG is right that Israel's terrible behavior in Lebanon at the time turned the Shia against them."

This is a start. Instead of just attacking him because he is a supporter of Hezbollah, why not try and comment on his concerns and what he is saying. Keeping in mind that Hezbollah is not an enemy of the United States. There are many Shia that live in the U.S. that are supporters of Hezbollah and go about their daily lives, and you won't hear a peep of trouble out of them.

I am not saying Hezbollah is perfect, but once they disarm and the mistrust is moved out of the way, I know that the U.S. will not have any issues with them, and you may even see the U.S. Ambassador in Lebanon wanting to meet with high level Hezbollah officials.

Tsedek, you obviously haven't read this whole long set of threads.. AlGhaliboon has repeatedly threatened everyone within and far outside of his reach, always starting with nonsensical claims that he, his children (and in some cases the entire middle east) are humilated slaves. Calls for peace make him slather that peace would make his children slaves. That he'll die, he'll let them all die before being a slave, that every Arab state in the middle east are degraded slaves (degraded by peace, I think). He has also threatened the Sunnis, saying they treat Shiites as slaves and something incomprehensible about "slaves to be"...

At times the rhetoric has sunk to depth the sane can ne'er follow, but no doubt it's all copied from spittle flecked rants by Nasrallah.

I responded to one of his latest rants with the following (in a different thread):

Notice all of AlGhaliboon's insane talk about being "slaves" or "treated like slaves"? He's said that Israel makes all of the middle east slaves, he's said that peace would make his children slaves and he's said that Sunnis treat his people like slaves.

The important thing to notice is that every mention of this insane talk was accompanied by a threat or as an excuse for war. He could not, when pressed, say a single word that substantiated this insane rhetoric.

It should be clear what "slave" means when AlGhaliboon says it. It's always a combination of threat and excuse for violence. His ideology pretends victimhood every time it commits a crime, every time it kills, every time it threatens, every time it oppresses.

This is the common mark of a fascist thug. Be aware that this is what AlGhaliboon is.

Josh Scholar,

I must say, your understanding of "threatening" and "threat" is quite astonishing, even for someone like us, whose native language is not English.

I realize, however, that it is easier for those who actually lack any valid points and arguments, to jump on the rhetorical - as opposed to factual and historical - bandwagon. Which explains very clearly why you "put an end" to the discussion when you were getting a serious "beating" with facts, but leapt onto the bandwagon of generalizations and rants about "Islamofascism" to vent your hatred and bigotry which you could otherwise not explain, or justify, based on history. What you try to pass off as strength is in fact a weakness. And we see right through you.

A couple of great threads, Michael. Just as the ice has been broken and the conversation gets started, the government in Lebanon collapses. Two steps forward, one step back, or is it two? Isn't that Lebanon's curse? I wish them luck. I hope this conversation continues and that the only attacks are verbal or with ballots.

I noticed on the Daily Star website that a trade agreement between the US and Lebanon is in the making and that Lebanon and the US are negotiating on Lebanon's entry into the WTO. That is good news, even if AG does not take material maters as seriously as many of us in the West do. More trade for Lebanon means more jobs at home, less upheaval in average lives, and a chance for the Shia community to participate in the benefits of a strong Lebanese economy. I am not naive enough to think that this will guarantee peace in Lebanon, but it is a step in the right direction.

Just a couple of observations about the conversation with AG:

"Respect for Israel, Jews & Christians". How do we interpret this? Equality? Full equality? No more talk of protected status for religious minorities in Muslim countries, but rather acceptance of the concept of freedom of religion, including freedom to cast off your religion? Until we agree on that we really are talking past one another.

What will people like AG do if the Palestinians decide to waive their claims to full right of return in exchange for a state with secure borders and for some sort of financial compensation for property confiscated or lost? On the one hand AG wants to disarm the Palestinians as part of a political settlement at home, but on the other hand he takes up the cause of Palestine and proclaims his willingness to die for that cause. I smell hypocrisy here. Don't get me wrong -- there's enough hypocrisy to go around on all sides. The critical issue is what AG and his brothers will do if the Palestinians settle for less than everything that is on their wish list. Will AG and his backers accept that peace or reject it and start looking for another reason to attack Israel? Will AG continue to allow himself to be manipulated by foreign powers such as Iran to foment discord in the region and expand Iranian, and therefore shia power?

What will be the effect of allowing Lebanon's Shia population to become full stakeholders in the Lebanese system? Once we cut through the all the extraneous issues isn't this the basic issue confronting Lebanon today?

I am a veteran of the Seventies and Eighties cold war "dialogue" with the left. Much of what I hear from AG and his sort reminds me of that dialogue. The "interational brotherhood" mentality. The cheap talk of imperialism, slavery and western corruption. I urge folks like AG to keep talking to us and to listen to us. Not the ones throwing personal insults or the ones proclaiming the infallibility of western values, and not the self-flagellating ones, but the ones explaining our experience and convictions in personal terms.

Mr. Josh Scholar,
i've got no doubt whatsoever that what mr. alghaliboon expresses are his true feelings. why not start listening to them? they may be violent, they may not be what you (or i) want to hear, but it ARE his feelings and he IS a person.
i think you underestimate the effect oppression (and humiliation) can have on people.
are you a mideastern?

are you a mideastern?

I'm a human being, an American who grew up in Canada - both successful countries made up mostly of immigrants from everywhere else. I have the same high standards for everyone, and I won't fall into the trap of believing that anyone has an excuse.

AlGhaliboon actually, I'm not wasting time discussing things with you personally because long experience on the Internet has taught me that liars, ideologs, propagandists and haters are a complete waste of time to talk with and throw up so much smoke that any discussion with your like obscures far more than it reveals.

Lying is asymmetric warfare, in that it takes a liar only seconds to concoct a huge web of lies, and takes an honest man a week to disprove them. I'm not interested in playing.

It seems to me that for you, discussion is a game that one plays only to win, rather arrive to better understanding of the enemy, into whom/which you would otherwise not be able to have such a unique insight (though again, it seems to me that in the ignorant and supremacist wolrd view so prevalent in your part of the world, understanding the enemy or even speaking his language, reading his views, are all a waste of time - keep it up, because you will not only lose Iraq and Afghanistan, but also the Gulf Arab states and practically anyone who is willing to cooperate with you for whatever purpose and agenda it is, even if the agenda is the noblest in the history of mankind). For you discussion means nodding in approval of those with whom you agree; we call that soothing one's ego. I am baffled by your insistence that my "lies" are a non-starter, when you are yet to address those "lies" to begin with. But again you were quite honest about your unwillingness to touch my "lies" even with a ten-foot-pole, even if that would mean completely debunking me and making me irrelevant in the "discussion".

Keep going in circles. Hastening the process might just bring your ego to a point of over-soothing, and you might, at last, realize your mistake. But then again, your ignorance and willingness to wallow in it, is a point to our advantage.

I have no time for anyone who will insist that I have to be his enemy. I think it's a better use of my time to ignore the insane and to appeal to the sane people around them to exercise their responsibility to society to keep the insane from hurting anyone.

I have no enemies, not sane ones, because I intend no harm. If you're my enemy then you're insane.

Anyway I don't talk to win, I talk communicate, to convince, to improve the world. Apparently you talk in order to formulate battle plans, disgusting, insane. But I was right that your aim isn't communication.

Mr. Josh Scholar,
only by recognizing that your 'opponent' is a human being like yourself with his right on his own perspective can you discuss (and, if no solution is found: fight) with him. One should NEVER EVER approach a person from an imaginary higher moral ground if he addresses you with his grievances.

Josh,

No one said you have to be my enemy. You, personally, are not my enemy. Nor is any American or Westerner. Our enemy is the U.S policy towards our people and the general Western inaction on our suffering while they keep repeating "never again". What are we to understand from this? That some types of blood are more valuable than others? Surely if you are a fan of Orwell, you would realize the irony.

I'm going to lose the middle east? I didn't know I had it. GW better call me to get in on a piece of the action!

On reflection it would seem that this discussion with AlGhaliboon is a waste of time. It seems to me he is just a 23 year-old-kid who is simply gaining an inflated ego from all the attention being lavished on him, to the extent that he is now bloggin about it:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://alghaliboon.blogspot.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=4&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalghaliboon%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLJ,GGLJ:2006-18,GGLJ:en

Mertel, I don't think anyone has ever said that AlGhaliboon is an important member of Hezbollah.

Mertel,

Way to go; another cheap attempt to fallaciously dismiss my arguments. I suppose you proved you can use google.

At any rate, allow me to actually translate, because the translation tool is woefully inaccurate:

"Today I received an advice from Michael Totten, and that is, that I should read the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz.

...
Thank you for this advice. Without you we would not have known about Ha'aretz."

Is your ego satisfied now? Good. Now let us get back to the real issue at hand, I believe you do not have any more googling to do.

e should NEVER EVER approach a person from an imaginary higher moral ground if he addresses you with his grievances.

Not every grievance deserves sympathy especially not ones carefully constructed as an excuse for the constant war and hatred that fascists need.

Not every higher moral ground is imaginary.

tsedek,

i think you underestimate the effect oppression (and humiliation) can have on people.
are you a mideastern?

And I think you underestimate the oppression and humiliation heaped on the rest of the population, often times by the creeps who claim to be oppressed (and use it to oppress others).

I am from the ME and I was oppressed by the "poor victimized" Palestinians in Beirut, and by assorted totalitarian creeps (Nasserites etc) before they totally destroyed the country in the 1970s'.

"One persons's terrorist is another's freedom figher" and VICE VERSA.

In some chic circles the Palestinan Keffieh and other leftist paraphernalia are a symbol of freedom. To me it will forever be a symbol of oppression. You should get out more.

And also boo-hoo-hoo, now that I'm a victim, will you now listen to my story and support my every demented action?

Tsedek, also all of this talk of feelings is misplaced.

When you ask what someone is feeling you're looking at symptoms rather than causes. You should be asking what a person believes and what they think, both actions and feelings follow belief, not the other way around.

Most of your opinions here fail to grasp the entire picture and facts.
Hezbollah, Amal and the FPM are the new majority (at least more than 65% of the population). Failure to mirror this fact in the current government will only lead to unrest until a more representative government is formed.
Here is an article that gives more background on what is happening.
http://www.mideastmonitor.org/issues/0609/0609_1.htm

"Way to go; another cheap attempt to fallaciously dismiss my arguments."

It was nothing to do with your arguements AlG, I was addressing the extraordinary attention others are providing them. People seem to think by arguing with you they are arguing with Hezbollah.

I am merely pointing out that you are just a 23-year-old kid, who seems to be enjoying all the attention. Therefore whilst many here have successfully dismantled your arguments, the effect is only to bolster your professed inadequate ego, and embolden and encourage you and in your proclaimed jihad against your chosen enemies (which happens to include most of the people here).

People seem to think by arguing with you they are arguing with Hezbollah.
I don't think anyone actually said or implied such a thing. I am, however, a full-fledged member of Hizbullah and my family has given more than one martyr to the cause; I also have knowledge of some things that supporters otherwise do not.

I am yet to see anyone dismantling my arguments. In fact, the few who have attempted to have been the ones whom I deeply respect and whose readiness to have dialogue I appreciate. I am not afraid of challenges; in fact, I welcome them. Hence my calls to quite a number of people here to address my points, which so far they show no willingness to do, on the bases of my alleged (!!!) "Jihadism" (do me a favour, please tell me what Jihad means; I mean, both as an Arabic word and as an Islamic concept/belief).

You say I am a 23-year-old, and I presume you looked at my profile on the FPM website (nevertheless I commend your curiosity); however, allow me to remind you that we have given martyrs much younger than 23. Age, as such, is not a scale by which to judge dedication.

they keep repeating "never again".

Another Nazi comparison, that I'm sure you "did not actually mean" to be a Nazi comparison. Again.

What a joke.

HEY!! Josey Wales - I'm NOT defending the hizb or any of their likes. C'mon hey!! They're a terrorist organization in my eyes and I despise terrorists. They've killed and kidnapped my neighbor and kept his body hostage for 3 blooming years having his parents gone through hell and back, what do you think, that I can respect them or their right of speech??

However - I'm very curious to know where the feeling of oppression stems from and more from a point of view of people supporting them. I'm sure that you were not oppressed by the whole shia' community those days but by their headstrongs? Were you? I would truely like to know why people using violence achieve support. And I know oppressing and humiliating is one of the most 'successful' hand-outs for governments to create rebellion.

I'm almost sure that half of the shia's in lebanon have no idea who samir kuntar is (the 'hero' that the hizb wants freed and started this kidnapping of soldiers for) and what he has done (smacked a little girl's head to the rocks in front of her father's eyes until she was dead) - SO: it is just interesting to HEAR from people of the 'opposite' corner without killing them with personal accusations.

Tsedek,

We all know who Samir al-Quntar is. Anyway he is not Shi'ite, he is Druze. But it's not only about al-Quntar but also about our other prisoners (and the 2000 capture was about the other prisoners, whom we got back, and who had suffered greatly at the hands of Israeli torturers who did the most indecent and immoral things - another practice that Israel ought to re-consider if it is interested in making friends in the long run), and the very idea that you don't respect that our claims are just as legitimate as yours, because your people have also killed my people (without going further into moral equivalency arguments).

People using violence achieve support because of the aims are deemed important enough to warrant any method to achieve the means, and the fact that other means have been unsuccessful; but you can also ask yourself this question, because it also applies to your people. This is exactly why Islamist movements, Hizbullah, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Jordan, and elsewhere, and others I cannot mention because the list is long, have, when given the chance to contest elections or allowed to even think of the prospect of coming to power (and being able to advance their people's plight, and try to work on their agendas - notwithstanding that you disagree w/ these agendas) have tended to adopt a moderate and pragmatic political position. Hizbullah is a success story in that regard. The suppression of Islamist movements merely gives us more impetus. Another thing that our self-styled enemies, namely anti-Islamists, fail to realize. If we do represent the will of the people, we ought to be able to come to power. If, as they say, we are a marginal force, let them give us a chance to seriously contest their claims and prove that we are a force to be reckoned with. And if we are not, as they claim, then we will lose. Isn't that only fair?

By the way, I cannot help but be surprised at the fact that an Israeli is more open to having a conversation/discussion with me than some Americans who have not even set foot in the region, and have no knowledge of its peoples' historical grudges.

tsedek:

I'm almost sure that half of the shia's in lebanon have no idea who samir kuntar is

Do you think they would change their mind about him if they knew what he did?

Do you really think they care about the condition of skulls of little Zionist girls? Aside from actually wanting them all to be smashed in?

He's a 'hero' up there to people who know exactly what he did AND to people who only know him as an idea.

Apologies,

In the beginning of the 2nd paragraph I meant to say:

People using violence achieve support because of the fact that aims are deemed important enough to warrant any means to achieve them, and the fact that other means have been unsuccessful

Mr. (Mrs.) SoCalJustice, I would like to think that many people would condemn such actions if they're fully aware of them. Like I condemn actions of the IDF when and if they prove inhumane.

Mr. AlGhaliboon, "any means"?? PURPOSELY killing children as well?

I'm aware of the indecent handling of the lebanese prisoners by our guards, that's also one thing I'm against and would speak up against, IF (!) the 'other side' would show the same compassion. But I can't see that....

Pictures of hundreds of Israeli's streaming to the Blue Line-fence after Israel left Lebanon in 2000 come to my eyes in which they were asking for peaceful relations, for normalization, for a future TOGETHER... but were met by hundreds of angry hizb-supporters threatening to 'crush them & drive them outta israel'

Where do your point of re-assessment start and when? Does it necessarily have to do with the Palestinian conflict? And, if so, are you aware that many Lebanese, although they hate Israel (of which I can't blame them after a 20 year occupation and terrible war) would like their national interest to supercede that of the palestinians cause because they feel wounded enough already by the repercussions (say like having all those wars on their territory that are not really their wars) coming from israel?

tsedek,

(It's Mr. :-)).

I would like to think that many people would condemn such actions if they're fully aware of them.

And that's sweet of you. But just so you know, they know and he's still a hero.

Like I condemn actions of the IDF when and if they prove inhumane.

There's plenty of indoctrination in Jewish and Israeli society. But it's not even in the same universe as the pro-Hizballah Shia community.

It's nice of you to think that they would look at the world through a similar lens as your own, but it's just not reality.

They know and he's a hero.

Einat Haran was a Zionist oppressor and:

a) nothing happened to her that Jews haven't been doing to Arabs for years, you see; and

b) she's a Jewish european colonial settler and all Samir Quntar was doing was fulfilling the Hadith: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Trust me. I'm hoping you're right. If the anti-Hizballah Shia rise up against Hizballah because they realize that the "pride" and "honor" they bring them is actually in the form of death, destruction, pain, oppression and a medieval mindset, then everyone will be better off.

But I wouldn't hold your breath.

Tsedek,

It is almost always the case that normal people cannot understand extremists. You will never be able to understand Al. For example, there are "color blind" people that can only see in black and white. The world to them looks like a black and white movie to us. Would you ever be able to explain to these people what to see red is? Some things you can only understand by experiencing yourself. Another example is the sexual urge. Can this be explained to anyone before puberty? You have to experience it to understand it.

Everybody has sensed humiliation in life, but what Al has is this hyper-humiliation sense that no matter how much you try, you will never understand without actually experiencing it. Many of us probably have the potential to develop such a sense, but honor societies provide the right environment for this sense to be nurtured and then manifest itself. Once this happens, there is nothing much that can be done.

e

Mr. AlGhaliboon, "any means"?? PURPOSELY killing children as well?
Yes, any means; any means, that is, that our (Islamic) belief in justice would allow. And no, that does not include killing of children. At any rate, I do not think that Mr. Quntar's release is being sought for because he is a child killer, or that seeking his release would entail supporting his criminal action which is haram (prohibited). He is, however, a Lebanese prisoner, and we demand the release of all Lebanese prisoners, just like Israel would demand the release of its prisoners/soldiers, however much blood on their hands might be.

When have your prisoners in our hold been treated in the indecent manner that our prisoners have been treated? Can you please give me names?

It is always easy for the occupier to expect peace and not understand the rejection thereof by the recently liberated. It is easy to do so exactly because we were on the defensive, and trying to liberate our land, whereas you were on the offensive, and refused to leave our country.

You say you were met by an angry mob at the border; I say, yes we were angry, and still are. But there is something more, something that few people would like to admit. There's also curiosity. When I see scenes from your cities and kibbutzim on TV, I get a strange feeling, but of resentment and curiosity. It is difficult to admit, but yes, we are curious about you. We want to learn more about you and not just because knowing more about you would enable us to enhance our performance in the battlefield. I don't say this to many of my people (except a few). Many will probably deny that they feel the same. But trust me, they do feel interested, and yes, they also do visualize what it would be like if peace were to finally come to our part of the world. I know the names of your towns and cities and every single kibbutz and moshav that you have built. I read your newspapers more than I read Lebanese ones.

We are not a bunch of lunatics who strap explosive belts to their chests and blow themselves up. As much as we despise your injustices, we also respect and acknowledge your achievements.

We also know about your past and the injustices that your people went through and survived. I know the names of all the camps that your people were interned and killed at, the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and everything else. We also follow all your actions, including such campaigns and services as Birthright Israel, the March of the Living, Nefesh B'Nefesh, etc. We know you more than you know yourselves. Peace requires knowledge of your neighbours as much as war does. We have done our homework. Have you done yours?

Mertel,

You are on the right track and for those of you who wish to understand the making of an extremist - AlGhaliboon is a 23 year old young man whose story is as follows:

Dan Marsden was born and raised in East Beirut, the son of an Armenian mother and an English father. His father was killed during the Lebanese civil war and Dan has been haunted ever since by the thought that his father may have killed civilians as a member of a Christian militia. He goes to York University in Toronto and becomes a homosexual, atheist, anarchist and fanatical anti-zionist.

On graduating, in May of 2005, he returns to Lebanon to search for the truth about his father. He becomes attracted to Islam, converts, joins Hezbollah, marries a Lebanese girl who is now pregnant, and then is wounded fighting the Israelis in the summer of 2006. Now apparently he has recycled himself as AlGhaliboon, an apologist for Hezbollah.

There are many interesting elements here. How does a young person go from one extreme to the other in a short period of time – politically, religiously and even sexually? There appears to be a convergence in some instances between the extreme left and Islamism. The left is vociferously anti-American and pro-palestinian and some leftists are finding a home in the islamist camp. Perhaps a journalist like Michael J. Totten could look into this story.

So as you read AlGhaliboon’s (aka Dan Marsden) posts, keep in mind that you are reading the arguments of someone whose first language is English, educated in the West, a convert to Islam, not of Arab blood, who has followed an odd path.

For the full story check out the Blogging the Middle East blog at meastpolitics(dot)wordpress(dot)com. August 21, 2006 “My friend the Terrorist”, and August 23, 2006 “A conversation with Dan”. Read the comments too.

Also check out Dan’s web site Winds of Change in the Middle East? at marsden(dot)blogspot(dot)com.

How does a young person go from one extreme to the other in a short period of time

Self-loathing.

Al,
Were you, or are you Dan Marsden?
e

Mr. :) SoCallJustice,
Allright. I've seen those people on tv, that are willing to send their own children as human fadjr's filled with explosives into Israel because of their hate of Israeli's - a notion of which can never be taken away from them, because it is too much rooted in. Is part of them.
BUT (!) I've also seen southern-Lebanese Shia's (mostly elderly women for some strange reason) that were completely tired of all this violence and crying and begging for it to stop. (Those pictures were broadcast on israeli tv during the war). So, there you have it: even this so-called support of the hizb is not black/white :)
The only thing I'm curious about is what quantities are we talking about - and I've got the strange feeling that a reliable response to this won't come ever, since each and everyone is too busy pushing their own agenda's (incl. propaganda) through...

Also: your quote from the Quran. There are many, many peaceful quotes in that Book. Everybody selects one to show 'something' - It's still a matter of what/where/who/how many believe in which 'way' the Quran offers.

Mr. e.,
I CAN understand extremists. I really can. I can work myself up that much that I can actually get to the point that I can become one myself if I'd let it be (without the part of alternative killing that is). 'Losing it' is, in fact, not that unnatural in my eyes. That's why talking is so important, and that's why insulting and adding oil to fire is that desastrous.

Tsedek,
You understand extremists in the same way that you understood jokes about sex before puberty. Don't fool yourself.
e

Can this petty playing on the person stop??
How is this part of the discussion?

Mr. e,
you convinced yourself that I'm not able to do so, but that's just what it is: YOUR conviction. that is also one of the most irritating (next to the wonderful) aspects of 'western society' - they think they know everything and all - while.... they don't.
please be assured that i don't write things that are not true...

Tsedek,
We are discussing whether extremists can be understood by normal human beings. Let me rephrase my previous remark to make clear that it is not a personal attack:
You understand extremists in the same way that I understood jokes about sex before puberty. I used to laugh at them and thought I understood them.

I think your position with extremists is similar. Everyone can imagine being a serial killer, but there is huge difference between imagining and experiencing the urge to commit several murders. Just by imagining yourself a serial killer, you don not gain understanding of what a serial killer is. You have to experience his emotions, which you obviously can't.

His emotions lead to action. Your induced emotions don't. They are very different emotions.

e

Eye spy,
How sure are you that Al is Dan Marsden?
e

e, reading the story, I am pretty sure I am not. If you get the sarcasm.

One thing, though, this guy has supposedly converted? I am not sure I buy his story though if he has converted it's surely God's will.

Anyway, I do not understand this obsession with showing that I am this or that, an anti-Semite or not, Mr. Marsden or not.

Mr. AlGhaliboon,
would Samir Kuntar get jailed if he were to be returned to the hizb for committing a haram crime? or would it be swept under the carpet for "it's all ok, since it is the enemy?"....

I don't know about the prisoners your hold that have been maltreated while in captivity, since the only ones I can say anything reliable about in that aspect were quite dead before they arrived, and mr. juggler (the drugdealer orwhatever that got mixed up with the wrong crowd and was released in the last prisoner's exchange doesn't really interest me).

Mr. AlGhaliboon, your organization doesn't really see the difference between the IDF and civilians? (that came to the fence). "We" civilians wanted to reach out and touch... It was "us" civilians that got Israel outta Lebanon in the end... "our" pressure was weighing in. You MUST see the difference?

Besides to that, did you know that (and I am 100% certain about this fact) ALL IDF'ers would like to enter Lebanon 'next time' only with a valid pasport? That NONE of them are interested in getting mixed up in violence again and bombing the shit outta innocent people that as a rule ALWAYS get to be the victims... ?

It's good you're well-informed about israel and israeli's but somehow, I distinctly feel, you miss the clou: no-one, except extremists that are kept under control and even more (social) control if resistance against our existence would stop, wants anything else than just to live in peace. How this can be accomplished with another people that have serious grievances against this very existence, should be TALKED ABOUT. Every violent move towards Israel & Israeli's automatically hardens society for the fate of others, when they themselves feel endangered.
So, this cycle of violence, Mr. AlGhaliboon, is just keeping opposites opposites and serving extremists not only from a favorable point of view but also, directly, the extremists of the 'other side'.

My homework? LOL - I'm exactly busy doing that all the time, Mr. AlGhaliboon, all the time.... even now, here with you.

No, Mr. e.,
that is not true. the 'personal attack' comment i wrote was not meant for you but for whoever wants to lead the discussion into name-blaming towards mr. alghaliboon. What does it matter if he's 23 or 75? or a man or a woman? or whatever? he's putting forward different views - and that should be discussed. not who he is.

BUT: Mr. e., your comparison to sex and jokes doesn't cut wood. I can perfectly well imagine myself become a suicidebomber if familymembers would be killed (Godforbid) by 'occupation forces' (the only thing is that alternative killing just wouldn't catch on to me, but that's another story.. )How many times do you read or hear people exclaim that when they do something to their children they would torture and kill the person committing such crime? That's not 'extremist"?

Al,
A simple yes or no answer would be the most helpful:
Are you or were you Dan Marsden?

Care to enlighten us about the following:
Is English your mother tongue?
Were you born a Muslim?
Do you have a college degree and where did you get it?

To make this reciprocal let me tell you that my mother tongue is Hebrew, I was born and am a Jew and that I am a graduate of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Regarding antisemitism, there is a concept called "good faith" that we utilize in the West. If you are a racist, it is unlikely that your answers would be in good faith. That is why the fact that you are an antisemite is important.

e

tsedek,

it is my sincere hope that you are right.

i also hope this latest news shows all good Lebanese people - including Shia - that Hizballah has no intention of playing nice within their own country, and that, at the end of the day, they are much more of a burden then a boost (to false notions of "pride" - not one of the seven deadly sins for nothing - and "honor" anyway).

they should have figured this out already, as they have their "victory" celebrations on piles of rubble.

but whatever, some lessons take longer to learn than others.

but some lessons will never be learned.

we'll see.

I was in Israel in September, and everything seemed exactly as it was the last time I was there, a year earlier. It was in great shape. This was just a few weeks after the war.

In war terms, Israel was barely nicked.

Yet Olmert is internally reviled (as he should be).

Meanwhile, Lebanon has been reduced to an international charity case and Nasrallah is a hero.

The Lebanese really need to figure that out - for their own sakes. And soon.

e, I will answer, but I will not go into detail because I wish to keep myself as anonymous as possible for a number of reasons which I will not elaborate.

1. No.
2. Arabic is my mother tongue. However, I have attended, beyond intermediate level, a school which teaches English on the same level as Arabic, which would explain why my English is good (and also why I said that I have a very Western education); also I have lived in the U.S in particular for some time. As for what I do now, I can say that I do have a higher degree from a local university, and only that much.
3. Yes, and proud. And I proudly bear the testimony that THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE GOD and that Muhammad(PBUH) is His Prophet.

Incidentally, I did not know you were Israeli. But I find it ironic as I already told Tzedek, that I have been able to sustain dialogue with an Israeli more than some Americans.

Tsedek,

Experiences are subjective. You cannot experience what he does. Imagine a pefectly healthy person living in a black and white room since birth. While he sleeps, someone puts a tomato in his room. In the morning he experiences red for the first time. The person has experienced color, but does he know what it is like to experience blue? No, because he never saw a blue thing in his life. You are making the same mistaken jump. From one set of experiences you believe you can understand another. It doesn't work this way.

Yes, you can imagine being a suicide bomber, but no, you will not be able to blow yourself up near a line of teenagers trying to enter a club in Gaza. The urges/feelings that you can induce in yourself are not the same urges/feelings that an extremist has. His urges/feelings are so strong they lead to action. Yours do not because they are different.

e

Al G,

You talk about the "means" to achieve your objectives. Why you use the methods and tactics you do is probably one of the greatest sources of consternation and confusion in the West. Frankly, the are viewed not only as barbaric, but also as counterproductive. As a result the focus of most Americans and others in the west is on the way you conduct your resistance and not the resistance itself. It seems to me this is a counterproductive strategy for you. You state you want to change US policy, but your tactics do nothing but reinforce and justify it in the eyes of Americans and the West.

You say other means have not worked, but the tactics you use now are not working either. I personally think you'd be much more successful taking a non-violent approach. The Christian west respects and can understand that for obvious reasons.

As it stands now, Americans are willing to forgive the Israeli's when they kill innocents because they see your tactics as worse. In the case of the recent war in Lebanon, Americans viewed your tactics as war crimes that were designed to create civilian casualties. Placing your artillery/rocket pieces next to apartment buildings is one example. If you're so concerned about your own civilians why do you not make an effort at keeping them away from the conflict? A common perception in the west is that you purposely use civilian areas and the UN compounds to complicate Israeli targeting. When the Israelis miss and civilians are killed, you cry foul but it was your own actions that placed those civilians in harms way. Leaving aside the question of cowardice for hiding behind your civilian population, such methods will garner you no support in the west. By the same token, your tactics and those used by the Intifada consistently strengthen the right-wing and marginalize the more moderate and peaceful elements in Israel. You and Hezbollah are about the best thing that ever happened to the right wing in Israel.

It's amazing you don't see the cycle this creates and don't attempt to break it.

In the last three days on MJT's blog, I think I have seen the best and the worst of the bloggosphere.

My deep respect goes out to those who are doing their best to discuss and bridge gaps and to understand. To those who are doing their best to demonize and disrupt, well, not so much.

DPU,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying consider "AlGhaliboon" as part of the "best ... of the blogosphere" whom you now "deeply respect" because he is "doing" his "best" to "bridge gaps" and "understand"?

Mr. e.,
Maybe experiences are different but human basic feelings are the same: pain = pain, and suffering = suffering. Obviously I wouldn't blow myself up in a discotheque since I'm drenched in this feeling that alternative killing (killing others i/o the responsible person) is completely, totally, for 100% WRONG. One life = one world. So, the only thing you have to do in order to 'understand' extremist's reactions (I'm not talking about notorious haters) is changing the subject into a subject that would hurt you that much that would make you 'lose it'.

So, i'm sorry to say but i'm very sure that Godforbid if someone would hurt my family i would go after him, even if it's until the end of the world.

You bet your ass, SCJ. He doesn't have to be here, he doesn't have to share his opinions with us, and whether you agree or disagree with his viewpoints, I for one appreciate being able to hear them. And it's good to see some who oppose his ideology engaging with respect.

He's also taken a great deal of abuse with dignity and without responding in kind, which is more than I would be able to do.

Al Ghaliboon,
you must be happy that there aren't a lot of Lebanese on the comments section, where you can make up some claims and assuming that they are foreign and don't know as much as you about "our" internal politics.

NO, you do NOT make up 50% of the population, not even 40%. If you truly think so, you are delusional, and need to take a deep breath and think things over.

NO, you do not represent 95% of the Shia, although you have tried so much to do that, either by intimidating the independent, or assassinating those who could be a threat (ever since the days of Mahdi Amel, Hussein Mruwwi, you even almost assassinated Fadlallah just because he refuses to be a puppet of Iran like you).

The government is not dead, because if you and the Aounists go to the streets, we, as 14 March supporters, will go to the streets, and pluck Lahoud out of his office by force, and we'll see what will happen to the country. We will not live under the Mullah's rules, just because your "sayyed"s want us to.

Stop lying to yourself, during the war on Lebanon, your Sayyed was hailing the "political resistance" of the government, and now the same government is "zionist" out of the blue. And is it only a coincidence that this happened the days after the draft of the International Tribunal was received for approval.

Grow up, and let us live.

NO, you do NOT make up 50% of the population, not even 40%. If you truly think so, you are delusional, and need to take a deep breath and think things over.
Delusional? Perhaps. Let us have a census and determine this once and for all. What are you afraid of?

NO, you do not represent 95% of the Shia, although you have tried so much to do that
I think our election results have been clear. I also think it is clear how the so-called ruling "majority" came to power. You bet: our voice. Funny how they backstabbed us. They can await for our goodwill for a thousand years, and we can assure them they will not get it. Ever. Again. Period, new line. We also know how many people responded to our call for the victory rally, or the March 8 rally. Zoom out (your camera lenses), as they say.

The government is not dead
The government IS dead. Particularly so because the government is ILLEGAL, and in violation of the constitution. The government is dead because it is not up to Mr. Siniora to sign the decree for accepting our resignation. The government IS dead because the government does not represent more than 200,000 Druze and 1 million Sunnis.

You will live under the rule of the majority whether you like it or not. You are free to emigrate if you do not like it. Or join the opposition.

If the government is not dead, why do you care WHEN our ministers resigned?

NO, you do NOT make up 50% of the population, not even 40%. If you truly think so, you are delusional, and need to take a deep breath and think things over.

Surely someone somewhere must have a reliable estimate of this that can be linked to. Or, if not, I don't understand why opposing parties are making such definitive-sounding claims.

On what basis are the 50+ and <40% claims being made?

Mr. AlGhaliboon, your organization doesn't really see the difference between the IDF and civilians? (that came to the fence). "We" civilians wanted to reach out and touch... It was "us" civilians that got Israel outta Lebanon in the end... "our" pressure was weighing in. You MUST see the difference?

This whole discussion about reminds me of a bit from a comic, Pearls Before Swine. One of the characters is a Zebra, who can't understand why the lions keep eating his fellow Zebras. So, he writes a letter to the lions filled with philosophical questions about peace, understanding and the nature of being, asking why can't they all get along, why can't they be friends..

The answer comes back from the lions "we eat Zebras becuz you taste gud."

One of the main reasons why we've been so ineffective against Islamofascists is the fact that we allow ourselves to be distracted by their propaganda and by our own desire for peace. We don't pay enough attention to their goals and their actions.

If we listen to their propaganda, we're dealing with a group of people who are motivated by religion and philosophy.

If we pay attention to Hezboallah's actions, we realize that we're dealing with a bunch of gangsters. They're well-organized gangsters, funded by millions in oil money, but they're gangsters all the same. They want more money and power (as much as they can get), and they use guns to get them. Some are knuckle draggers and some wear suits and move money, propaganda and religious dogma around.

If we try to compare Lebanese politics to our own political system, we're confused. If we compare Lebanese politics to the mob wars in Italy, Russia, Ireland or New York, they makes a lot of sense. You have some families, and some groups who ally with other families and groups when it's convenient for them. They all want a bigger slice of the pie. You've got some pro-democracy types fighting for the rule of law.

All groups put family/community first, but most are willing to make deals - unless they have more guns or money than the rest.

There are also 'holy men' who lie about their motivations, who dupe gullible people into being martyrs. They're at war with us, lying and deceiving is their job. They fight with us because they want what we've got. It's our job not to be fooled by them - or by ourselves.

I guess I'll never really understand what has become a truly widespread phenomenon:

How self-described "leftists" can somehow figure out the dangers of religious fundamentalism when it comes from the New Testament, but somehow are fairly blind to it when it comes out of the Quran.

My guess is because of racist/white guilt reasons: "they're brown," "they're poor," "they're uneducated," "they're oppressed," etc... and/or the coolest one: "they hate America/U.K. and so they're our new allies against the scourge of capitalism."

I also thinking you're overstating the level of abuse he's taken. As a proud member of a religious fundamentalist organization whose two chief slogans are "Death to Israel" and "Death to America," I would have suspected he'd be subject to a lot more, especially since most people here are Americans who do not wish to see their own country, or Israel, die.

And if you honestly - rather than just rhetorically - believe that portions of this exchange over the last several days represents "the worst of the blogosphere," then you I would say you probably haven't read to many blogs with wide readership. But I think that you have read a lot of the bigger blogs - which is why I think you've quite unfairly characterized his situation.

How self-described "leftists" can somehow figure out the dangers of religious fundamentalism when it comes from the New Testament, but somehow are fairly blind to it when it comes out of the Quran.

I do hope this fantasy is not being projected on me.

Double-Plus-Ungood,

The last census in Lebanon was in 1932. The Maronites (Christians) constantly opposed this for DECADES afterwards, because a census would dispel the myth of Christian majority (or at least parity) on the demographic level and consequently the confessional system would have to be re-modelled to make the system representative. Now, all of them (Sunnis, Maronites, Druze) are against it. Every time we mention the issue of census, they reject it, saying it will create instability and hurt the "delicate confessional balance". At any rate, the 50% figure is based on analysis based on fertility rate, emigration date, etc. with the 1932 census being the starting point. Our fertility rates are almost double that of Christians, and 1 child/woman more than Sunnis. Do the calculations over 74 years. We also have lower emigration rates than Christians and Sunnis. You will see that we make up not just 50% of the population of Lebanon today, but much more than that. Anyhow, if they did not know this were the truth they would not objected to it.

No, Mary. I was asking this to Mr. AlGhaliboon, as a person, a human being, not placing him in a group, since groups are made up of individuals, and he is an individual. Unfortunately, he did not respond :(

Okay, that explains the 50% or more estimate, but I would think that the margin of error could be quite high.

Anyhow, if they did not know this were the truth they would not objected to it.

Object to a census being taken? Or object to the claim? I think that people would object to the claim if they thought it incorrect.

And wouldn't voter registration provide a raesonable estimate of population?

Tsedek, asking me what?

DPU,

No, it's not. But you're being awfully nice to someone who's lying if he tells you that he looks at you as anything else than an athiest infidel kuffar.

And speaking of fantasy, the amount of deference you give him as some kind of "bridge builder" is quite fantastic.

Not swearing and uttering an ignorant phrase about the "irony" of having better dialogue with Israelis than Americans hardly makes a bridge builder who's out for common understanding.

But you're being awfully nice to someone who's lying if he tells you that he looks at you as anything else than an athiest infidel kuffar.

The fact that I am not screaming insults seems to be offending a lot of people. Why is that?

~~~Tsedek, asking me what?~~~

Mr. AlGhaliboon, see my post of 09:18, please.

Yes, the margin of error could be high; however, 50% is the middle ground already, i.e. taking into consideration the margin of error.

No, they object to having a census. It seems the Sunnis want to naturalize the Palestinians to make up for their demographic losses to us.

Voter registration would not really show the real demographic balance because it would not take into consideration those who are not eligible to vote; the Shi'ite population is a very young population.

DPU,

I'll answer your disengenous question with one of my own:

Since when do "leftists" prize civility over vigorous and spirited discourse?

When did that happen?

I haven't called him one name, but I have said that that he's full of it, and attempted (you may disagree) to back those statements up. Yet I get the feeling I'm being lumped in with your "worst of the blogosphere" comment - perhaps because the other day I didn't want to sit around while he dissembled about whether or not America is Hizballah's enemy?

(Hint: the "Death to America" rallies give it away).

Yes, the margin of error could be high; however, 50% is the middle ground already, i.e. taking into consideration the margin of error.

No, they object to having a census. It seems the Sunnis want to naturalize the Palestinians to make up for their demographic losses to us.

Voter registration would not really show the real demographic balance because it would not take into consideration those who are not eligible to vote; the Shi'ite population is a very young population.

And speaking of fantasy, the amount of deference you give him as some kind of "bridge builder" is quite fantastic.

The phrase was used also in reference to Tsedek. But why do you suppose that AlGhaliboon is posting here, answering questions, and asking questions of his own?

Also, if you think that he's a liar, why are you even here? What is the point in exchanging dialog with someone you think is lying?

And speaking of fantasy, the amount of deference you give him as some kind of "bridge builder" is quite fantastic.

The phrase was used also in reference to Tsedek. But why do you suppose that AlGhaliboon is posting here, answering questions, and asking questions of his own?

Also, if you think that he's a liar, why are you even here? What is the point in exchanging dialog with someone you think is lying?

Dammit. I knew that was going to happen. Apologies for the duplicate comment.

Is it just me, or is Michael's comment window running really slowly today?

Mertel, how do you know (or think you know) AlGhaliboon and Dan Marsden are the same person?

Since when do "leftists" prize civility over vigorous and spirited discourse?

First of all, why the scare quotes?

Secondly, how the hell would I know?

I haven't called him one name, but I have said that that he's full of it, and attempted (you may disagree) to back those statements up. Yet I get the feeling I'm being lumped in with your "worst of the blogosphere" comment - perhaps because the other day I didn't want to sit around while he dissembled about whether or not America is Hizballah's enemy?

I wasn't lumping you in.

Tsedek,
"So, i'm sorry to say but i'm very sure that Godforbid if someone would hurt my family i would go after him, even if it's until the end of the world."

No you won't. The Americans for just reasons killed many innocent children in Hiroshima. Not one of the surviving parents attacked an American even though they had ample opportunity. There is not one documented case of a Holocaust survior attemptng to kill German kids because their parents were Nazis. The German survivors in Dresden who lost most of their families did not attack Americans and Brits. It is evident from the interviews with the family members of the victims of the recent Gaza tragedy that they are very upset and enraged, but that it is very unlikely they will become suicide bombers or martyrs. After a while, normal people channel their rage to more productive things. Abnormal people don't.

e

I should add, Mertel, that I found evidence on the Internet via IP Address tracking that they are, indeed, the same person. I have access to data that he doesn't know I have, and I have been digging into the code of other Web sites that is not visible to the eye or to browsers.

The phrase was used also in reference to Tsedek..

She definitely is attempting to be a bridge builder, and, if you read my conversation with her, you will see that I both "hope she is right" and I wished her luck.

But why do you suppose that AlGhaliboon is posting here, answering questions, and asking questions of his own?

I'm not sure. But I suppose I have yet to read anything that leads me to believe that he's a bridge builder.

Also, if you think that he's a liar, why are you even here?

Well, the few times I engaged in direct conversation with him, it was to demonstrate that he was lying. Which I believe I did.

The other reason to be here is to talk to other people engaged in this thread and discuss where they are coming from. Yes, this thread is about this Hizballah guy - but as with any other thread on the blogosphere - other people can (and do) engage in cross talk. That happens all the time in the blogosphere, no?

I determined yesterday that he was less than honest, and as a result, the overwhelming majority of my posts on this thread have been directed towards other poeple, yourslef included (only one at him, I believe, when he pulled another Godwin with his stupid and insulting "never again" reference).

So there you have it.

Michael, for the record it was Eye Spy who made those allegations not me. But it is fascinating. I did note that he didn't exactly outright deny it.

So, Alghaliboon, are you, or have you ever been, Dan Marsden?

No, Mary. I was asking this to Mr. AlGhaliboon, as a person, a human being, not placing him in a group, since groups are made up of individuals, and he is an individual.

Given the Dan Marsden discussion above, Mr. AlGhaliboon may be more than one individual.

First of all, why the scare quotes?

I guess because I don't think I've ever met a leftist who valued civility above argument. Nor do I think it should when the discussion involves an illiberal relgious fundamentalist (misogynist, homophobe, etc...) member of a kill cult.

But to each their own.

I wasn't lumping you in.

My apologies, then. Sorry.

Mertel,

I already answered that question as "e" inquired. Scroll up for the details.

The answer is an absolute no. And this is the last I will say about this.

AlG,

Twice now you have expressed surprise that Israelis are more willing to talk to you and understand you than (many) Americans.

This does not surprise me in the least. I know many many many Israelis personally, and as you know I have visited their country in times of peace and war. Israelis are widely misunderstood all over the world, and personal contact with them reveals their true nature in a way that reading about them never can. This is true of all people and all countries in the world, of course.

I am happy to watch you learn a bit about them. They are more reasonable than they appear when you are on the receiving end of their weapons. Perhaps you will remember that if and when you get tired of fighting.

would Samir Kuntar get jailed if he were to be returned to the hizb for committing a haram crime?
I would hope so. But it is not up to us to jail him, because we do not have separate legal procedures.

I don't know about the prisoners your hold that have been maltreated while in captivity
There have been none.

Of course we see a difference between the IDF & civilians. But you answered it yourself; in times of war the conscience is hardened.

I guess because I don't think I've ever met a leftist who valued civility above argument.

There can be no discussion without civility. Those who are only interested in contradiction place no value in civility, because all they want to hear themselves yell louder than the other guy.

While I'm a leftist (former anarchist, now left-leaning social democrat) and an atheist, I count among my friends evangelical Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Sikhs, Muslims, and conservatives of all stripes. I'm interested in what they all have to say and think, even if I think it wrong. But I won't hear it if I'm rude to them.

Mr. Totten,

First of all I would ask you to post the proof that I am who you are claiming I am, here, so that we can all see it.

Second - you are right of course. I have met Israelis myself, though not in the region. All of us have found it rather difficult to discuss the conflict, but have agreed that often those who are removed from it (for example, someone sitting miles away with no clue about the historical grudges that pit one group against the other in this region) are the most radically dedicated to one cause or the other. I think it's a scary phenomenon; incidentally, this is one of the aspects of my insistence that we - all of us, including the Israelis - are better off left to ourselves to solve our problems. I think interference, whatever noble agenda it has behind it, has been and will continue to be quite harmful.

Mr. e.,
I must insist I know myself better than you do LOL -

of course I wouldn't kill innocent people, which was the case if any japanese would kill american civilians for dropping the a-bomb on hiroshima, but you can deny it that pleases you, I would most certainly make sure a person who would be directly responsible for any damage to my family would deeply regret it (to put it mildly).

Maybe i'm abnormal in your book ...

Mr. AlGhaliboon,

this very thing:

~~~that we - all of us, including the Israelis - are better off left to ourselves to solve our problems. ~~~

I've been claiming all the time. The interference of outsiders just keeps spinning this conflict outta context and further away and leaves the people directly involved as puppets on strings of people that can reflect their ideals from cosy armchairs while not having to live it, let alone die for...

(I had already written this comment, but one way or another I got a white screen when I wanted to post it)

Mary, I'm not really interested in who Mr. AlGhaliboon is rather in what he has to say :)

alghaliboon, what is hezbollahs position regarding the Rotary Club and/or Freemasons?

tsedek,

you're such a yenta. phooey.

Tsedek,
"of course I wouldn't kill innocent people"
This is my whole point. Extremists will. You are not an extremist and can't understand them. If Hosni Mubarak would give an order to shoot a missle at Israel and it killed your family who would you hold responsible and go till the ends of the world to punish? Egypt? Mubarak? His generals? Any Egyptian? Now compare this to the HA attitude. Is it the same?
e

AG,

I don't have proof, and I am not claiming you are that person. I have evidence, which is different. And I won't make any actual accusation without knowing more than I do.

Anyway, you don't gain or lose any "points" for being Dan Marsden or not. It's just an interesting detail, if true.

I've got a question. Maybe someone (Lebanese preferably) can answer this:

how many actual 'fighters' does the hizb have? what the percent of lebanese people fighting in the hizb?

Who Ali G is? Who the fuck cares.

What he has to say?
I can't believe that I wasted so much time looking at his string of tripe.

It has nothing to do with communcation. He just loves this. This is not politics or discussion or heaven forbid, some deep insight into the enemy. This nerd just loves to think that he is just soooo eloquent and urbane.

Look at all the space that this jack-ass has occupied and the pompous, noblesse oblige dicta undulating from his ass.

Self-indulgent, adolescent and callow.

He is just a little boy who thinks he is just soooo important.

Who Ali G is? Who the fuck cares.

What he has to say?
I can't believe that I wasted so much time looking at his string of tripe.

It has nothing to do with communcation. He just loves this. This is not politics or discussion or heaven forbid, some deep insight into the enemy. This nerd just loves to think that he is just soooo eloquent and urbane.

Look at all the space that this jack-ass has occupied and the pompous, noblesse oblige dicta undulating from his ass.

Self-indulgent, adolescent and callow.

He is just a little boy who thinks he is just soooo important.

Who Ali G is? Who the fuck cares.

What he has to say?
I can't believe that I wasted so much time looking at his string of tripe.

It has nothing to do with communcation. It's masterbation. This is not politics or discussion or heaven forbid, some deep insight into the enemy. This nerd just loves to think that he is just soooo eloquent and urbane.

Look at all the space that this jack-ass has occupied and the pompous, noblesse oblige dicta undulating from his ass.

Self-indulgent, adolescent and callow.

He is just a little boy who thinks he is just soooo important.

Tsedek,

The number is confidential, and fighters and those with internal knowledge of Hizbullah are under oath and strictly prohibited from giving out such info (which is actually part of the council because it forms part of the party's strategic and tactical policy). However, the known figure is somewhere around 3,000 fighters divided into different levels and units.

Mr. Totten,

What exactly is the difference between evidence and proof? I am not sure. Perhaps you could elaborate. Anyhow, I did not say that you accused me of it - not that I care if anyone does, though I find it amusing - but it seemed that a number of people were implying that it would make a difference, which smells of having an agenda (call me paranoid if you will, with all my talk of hidden agendas!).

By the way, I must thank you for giving us the space for this discussion.

Actually ankhfkhonsu - and I know you don't give a damn, but i will say it anyway, it's not Ali G, it's AlGhaliboon, so the correct shortened form would be AlG or whatever variation you want to use. Bottom line being: my name is not Ali.

I am sure however that this mistake of yours is the result of you having read too much of what I have written.

Thank you, Mr. AlGhaliboon.

Alg, will you answer my question posted at 11:47?

If AlGhaliboon is Dan Marsden, then all of his talk about how I should understand him in order to understand my enemy is pretty silly. Mixed up westerners who become radical Muslims and join terrorist organizations may a topic of interest to the security services, but it's an awfully marginal group. I want to know how large masses of people are thinking not, say, six fingered lesbian dwarves.

Although he is interesting just as a member of Hezbollah whoes first language is English. And who knows, culture at times seems like such simple monkey see monkey do silliness that perhaps it IS possible for some westerner to absorb most of it if he want to deeply enough.

Josh,
I don't have any evidence either way about Al's indentity but perhaps people more knowledgeable can comment about the level of his English. Is it college level? Is it American English or English English? How many years of schooling in English do you need to reach this level of written English, etc.?

I agree that debating with a fringe element of western society is not that interesting. It is like talking to the anthropologist instead of the native.

e

I suppose it was unfair of me to call Dan a westerner, since he did grow up in Beirut. That also argues for him understanding the culture better than a westerner would.

Actually Ali, you will always be Ali G, although not remotely as entertaining.

And no, habibi, there were no mistakes made from reading so much of your drivel.

As a result of the verbose and repetitive nature of your profound dissertations, it was actually child's play to pick through such voluminous dross.

Do keep up the wanking, old boy, I hear that Noam Chomsky is looking for a teaching assistant.

Ta Ta

I haven't been paying close attention, but yes it's college level, and rather generic. Maybe it's Canadian English, that would strike me as generic since I grew up in Canada.

What exactly is the difference between evidence and proof?

"Evidence" suggests a thing might be true (and might not be true.) "Proof" demonstrates that a thing is, in fact, true.

I don't know if your real name is Dan or not, and I won't think more or less of you either way. It is nice to know someone's real identity, though. You know mine.

See above I must say, your understanding of "threatening" and "threat" is quite astonishing, even for someone like us, whose native language is not English.

He's claiming that English is not his native language, and he's using the royal "we"!

Mr. Totten,

I have given this charge / accusation more attention than it required and deserved; I have already answered the accusation when I did not have to. I do not feel the need to elaborate further on who I am, and that is a choice that people ought to respect, as I respect their choice to do the same. The little that I did say, I said it to satisfy the curiosity without giving away my much-valued privacy. Others who have now jumped on this bandwagon after they were done jumping onto other bandwagons have not felt the need to share their identity, nor the need to inquire about mine until now - when they wholeheartedly and unquestioningly accepted this accusation and almost asked me to disprove that I am NOT who they are convinced I am. This is riduculous. Whoever has proof, let him post it. Speculation seems to be the name of the game here. Speculation passed off as facts and consequent demands for debunking these assertions. This is something I am not willing to do. Frankly, I have given this discussion too much of my time in between tasks and religious and other duties, but I am not willing to participate in a game of proving and disproving of identities. If this is the new and final direction of this thread, I would have to respectfully bow out, and leave the field to all those who wish to speculate and counter-speculate. Maybe basking in their speculative victory would finally soothe their otherwise shattered and warn-out egoes.

Maybe basking in their speculative victory would finally soothe their otherwise shattered and warn-out egoes.

When random blog commentors win the arab-israeli conflict, you'll be the first to know...

Oh my poor shattered ego, damn that smarts!

Al,
You didn't explain the process by which the Israelis will agree to the return of the Palestinian refugees. Describe to me the scenario you envision please.
e

~~~I would have to respectfully bow out, and leave the field ~~~

Pity.

Is there no other place this sort of discussion w/o the personal accusations can be held?

And while we're on the topic of your damand for the right of return, perhaps you'll respond to the little article I wrote in response to your demand

My thesis being that the "right of return", if granted, would lead to extreme sectarian violence within Israel's neighborhoods - just like the violence that we're seeing in Iraq. And so it is not morally acceptable to be fighting for this, you're just giving the Israelis the choice between terror of war and even greater terror of sectarian conflict.

Tsedek,
Al is a regular on www.lfpm.org . I am sure he would be happy to continue the discussion there.
e

Thank you, Mr. e.

Now that I looked over there and what he writes I see that discussion is quite senseless:

~~~Israel is an entity that we do not recognize because it is unjust. The israelis are both Jews and zionists, but our problem is not iwth their Jewishness. Anyway, no we are not going to kill millions of these people; they should peacefully dismantle their racist state and accept living with us as equals.~~~

Pity. Once again...

Tsedek,

You may e-mail me if you wish.

e,

The process? Simple. First, a joint committee possibly with the participation of a neutral third party would be formed. The committee would calculate the claims of that Jews from a particular Arab country that the Palestinians are moving to Israel from, and would come up with the amount of money needed to be paid in reparations to these people. Simultaneously the agreement would be signed, which would allow for a phased return of the refugees from that particular country, maybe in batches of 5,000-10,000 refugees. If at any point the process goes wrong, either party has the right to halt the process, freezing funds transfer (which would also be phased) or freezing the acceptance of the refugees.

tsedek,

Tven for the "erudite" ones, there can be Arab states and there can be Muslim states. But there cannot be a Jewish state. Apparently Israel is the only country in the entire Middle East that needs to be politically organized like Canada or America. But all other states should be as ethnically Arab and religiously Muslim as possible (even the "secular," "socialist" countries in the Middle East are members of the OIC).

Even the non-religious fanatics pushing the newfound "apartheid" comparison refuse to reflect on the blatant ethno-religio-exclusionary practices common in the Middle East which leads to the official names of countries such as "Arab Republic of Egypt" and "Syrian Arab Republic."

Once you come to the sad understanding that even the moderates on that side are perfectly happy with the major regional international organization referring to itself as "The Arab League" as opposed to "The Middle East League," you will - again, sadly - understand the blatant hypocrisy and inherent racism of their position.

Now, I have no problem with the idea of an "Arab League" in theory, but for the fact that so many of its constituents, including your jihadi pal, seem to be blatant hypocrites.

Al,
I explained that Israel does not agree to the return of even one refugee to the 48 borders. You are negotiating with yourself. What is the process if Israel does not agree to accept any refugee?
e

Now, I have no problem with the idea of an "Arab League" in theory, but for the fact that so many of its constituents, including your jihadi pal, seem to be blatant hypocrites.

Pal?

What is the process if Israel does not agree to accept any refugee?
There is no process without willingness to compromise.

What's the point in talking if it's only to postpone the shooting?

Al,
That is the one point Israel will not compromise on. You have your limits, we have ours. Can you accept peace without the right of return?
e

DPU,

I could have called him something much less civil than that, no?

Tsedek,
check out another gem of his:

"The Jews have not been great examples of tolerance in human history. In fact, they are probably one of the worst, if not the worst."

See for yourself, post 54 on the following link:
http://www.lfpm.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20318&page=6

When asked about it he defended this as true. It is in one of the threads.

e

Mr. e., that is not true. I know and have heard many a times that Israel would be willing to absorb certain amounts of refugees would that be agreed upon beforehand (like: NOT given the choice - automatically in hands of the Palestinian refugees)

I know, Mr. e. But that is of a different calibre than not recognizing Israel's existence as the sample I gave above. Mr. Alghaliboon is most certainly not the only one having those views on Israeli strategies, I can assure you. But, that's something that can be overcome - if there are grounds to proceed in a positive way (which there are not if the very existence of Israel is not recognized).
If Germany and France can be partners in the european union after their fierceful history of wars - then I do believe that other countries (when recognized) stand a chance as well....

Tsedek,
Racism is racism. Maybe you think antisemites are not that bad and can be reasoned with. I don't.
I am Israeli and for me and many others it is a principle that not one refugee will return to the 48 borders. End of story. If after peace is signed Israel wants to accept a few thousand, it won't bother me, but only after the peace agreement and not as any condition for peace. All the rest is negotiable. For me this issue is not.

e

AlG, you said:
"I also have knowledge of some things that supporters otherwise do not."

Should you be bragging about it then?

About the Palestinian refugees, you consider it an imperative that they be disarmed, and that they do not become naturalized. I believe these are reasonable concerns, but don't you think allowing them decent living conditions (instead of penning them into squalid camps where 'permanent constructions are not allowed') would go a long way towards bringing about such disarmament?

Still on the subject of the Palestinians, why should they settle in a country to which they (obviously, and rightly) hold no allegiance? Because a corolary of the implementation of the 'right of return' is that they would have to somehow become Israelis. Since we both seem to agree that there should be an independent Palestine alongside Israel, to me its obvious that these people should return (or go) to their own country, not to that of their erstwhile enemies, even if their ancestors happened to have lived there.

The two sides could agree on compensations, and even on the acceptance of the RoR in principle but not in practice (i.e., agree that although thae have a right to go back to their former homes, these no longer exist in any meaningful way, so they'll get the next best thing: to go back to their own homeland with an apology and enough money to start over). Whaddyathink?

and that they do not become naturalized. I believe these are reasonable concerns

Why is keeping people in camps indefinately "reasonable" when middle eastern states do it. It would be called a human rights violation (and an outrage) anywhere else in the world. Why the lower standard for Muslims?

Read the rest of the comment Josh.

It is reasonable not to grant these Palestinians Lebanese citizenship. It is reasonable not to want Palestinian militias running around with guns (or Shiite ones for that matter, although AlG would surely disagree). It is not reasonable (as I say right afterwards) to keep them 'like neglected zoo animals', as MJT once put it.

As a result of the nature of the Lebanese system, the Palestinians in Lebanon can't and won't ever be naturalized...EVER. Henry Kissinger wanted it back in the day and never got it to happen, and neither will anyone else. This has nothing to do with the right of return issue. They can never become Lebanese citizens, period. So let's move on to other topics.

Omega80,
The Palestinians are living in Lebanon 3 generations. In 20 years, very few would not have been born there. They are in fact Lebanese of Palestinian origin and not Palestinians. If you don't want to be an apartheid state with all the consequences, you better start figuring out soon what you want to do with them.
e

This has nothing to do with the right of return issue. They can never become Lebanese citizens, period. So let's move on to other topics.

"They can never become Lebanese citizens, period," because...? Why?

Look nothing is EVER possible in the middle east. War can never end, peace can never come, oppression can never end, democracy will never happen, freedom is impossible, people will never stop teaching their children to hate... If I except any one of the myriad normally expected virtues that are a given every where else in the world, but somehow impossible in the middle east, then I have to accept them all, that you aren't human and there will never be any improvement.

I don't accept that, obviously.

After all there would be no middle east conflict if it wasn't some monstrous given that the Palestinians will always be second class citizens in every country (except Israel after you destroy it, of course).

Omega: As a result of the nature of the Lebanese system, the Palestinians in Lebanon can't and won't ever be naturalized...EVER.

Israelis won't do it either, and for many of the exact same reasons. This problem will never be resolved until the world gets past this and agrees to help these people lead decent productive lives in countries where they will not threaten others.

I would agree to absorb 100 percent of them in the United States if it would resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict once and for all.

Palestinians. If you don't want to be an apartheid state with all the consequences, you better start figuring out soon what you want to do with them.

But they've already found a solution to those consequences, encourage each new generation of Palestinians children to hate Jews, blame all of their suffering on Jews, and that God wants them to slaughter the Jews to take their land back.

It really works too. The Palestinians understand that they're to blame Jews for everything. They don't even hate the Christian militias that slaughtered their families in Shatilla and Sabra, I've heard interviews with the survivors. They saw no Israelis during the massacres, but they blame Israelis entirely. Imagine being such a broken slave that you surrender the deaths of your family and its meaning to the political needs of your captors. The middle east is an amazing place.

I would agree to absorb 100 percent of them in the United States if it would resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict once and for all.

If you wanted to avoid sectarian violence you'd have to find a state with no Jews in it to settle them.

A state like Canada:)

A state like Canada:)

I take it you're an American.

Yes Josh, I am American. Get a job fatty.

Bruno,

Should you be bragging about it then?
No; I was not bragging; I don't believe in vain pride. I was only stating a fact, which does make a difference. It's one thing to talk with someone who has his information from hearsay or some book, it's another to talk with someone who has a certain degree of internal knowledge albeit he would not say anything that would jeopordize anyone's or the party's wellbeing. I thought that was pretty clear. Where did the accusation of bragging come from?

Regarding Palestinian refugees, their disarmament should be coupled by giving them more rights though not naturalizing them because that would pretty much mean giving up on the right of return. So basically the right to work, and so on. Anyway, there are a number of Palestinians who were in fact naturalized because they were Christians, and if we are to be fair, their citizenship should be revoked.

What the country they are returning to is called is irrelevant, and who lives there today is irrelevant too. This is not 1920 when the native Palestinians were disgusted with the "western" lifestyle that the Jewish settlers brought with them from Europe. They have come to accept this lifestyle themselves, they have become pretty urbanized and if you like, westernized. The Israelis themselves have accepted some aspects of the local traditions and culture. Anyway, these people care about returning to their ancestral lands, and putting an end to the suffering (especially the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon who suffered A LOT during the 1975-1990 war). By the same token the Palestinian citizens of Israel are loyal to the state and co-exist with their neighbours, though they are not exactly treated as equals. They have learned to address their grievances through institutions and legal means. For example the "ADALAH" legal center for Arab minority rights in Israel, also other joint Jewish-Palestinian projects like Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam, Ta'ayush, and even a political party with mixed leadership and support base, the Hadash/al-Jabha. A large number of Palestinian citizens of Israel prefer to give their vote to Labor than to Arab parties.

Yes, returning to their "homes" means returning to the land, these homes most probably no longer exist; entire villages have been completely wiped out, often replaced with Kibbutzim and often not replaced with anything, they are just no longer there (by the way, there is also a joint Palestinian-Israeli initiative for raising awareness of this issue in Israel, and every year there are tours to areas where villages used to stand and were wiped out during the "nakba" the catastrophe). So these people can be given meaningful sums (maybe contributed to, in addition to Israeli payments, by Arab countries and also Britain whose role in creating the Arab-Israeli conflict should not dismissed or forgotten) to start over again. You will find, that if and when this is done, this will be met by absolute goodwill on the part of the returning refugees, rather than "revenge" attacks, etc. One can always say that these could be merely "acting" and waiting for the right time, but such an attitude would mean that no trust is forthcoming, and where there is no trust, there is no solution to any conflict, because reconciliation would be impossible.

e, why don't you post on lfpm.org?

Mr. AlGhaliboon,

~~~Regarding Palestinian refugees, their disarmament should be coupled by giving them more rights though not naturalizing them because that would pretty much mean giving up on the right of return.~~~

Why exactly would that be a problem to Lebanon? (Naturalizing) If that would be what they want (the Lebanese Palestinians)?

Al Ghaliboon admits that Palestinian refugees are merely tools for him to use to further his own aims:

Regarding Palestinian refugees, their disarmament should be coupled by giving them more rights though not naturalizing them because that would pretty much mean giving up on the right of return.

He doesn't want their problems to be solved unless it means destroying Israel.

tsedek:

Palestinian refugees: 500,000
Lebanese Population: 3,000,000

Lebanese Economy - GDP: 20 Billion USD
Lebanese Public Debt: 40 Billion USD

Problem.

First of all they are not "Lebanese Palestinians", because they are not citizens; they are "Palestinian refugees in Lebanon". Big difference.

It would not be what they want because they want to return to their lands. You cannot want 2 things simultaneously, especially that by accepting naturalization you would be effectively giving up on the right to return becase you are no longer stateless and do not count as a refugee anymore.

....a civilized political party instead of the thugs you are.

MJT, "It takes a lot of nerve for" an amerikan to ask any other party on this planet to be "civilized" politically, when you're ruled by a punch of maniacs whose sole political tactic is called WAR. Believe or not, Hizbullah is more politically pragmatic than your fans in the cedar "revolution" (aka war criminals).

It would not be what they want because they want to return to their lands.

That's convenient. How about giving them equal rights yourself? But then, they might not want to return to "their" lands (conquered through Jihad). I guess Muslim brotherhood only goes so far.

You know, millions of Jewish refugees from Muslim lands were given equal rights in Israel. Seems like Jewish brotherhood is a lot better than Muslim brotherhood, doesn't it?

Lira,

I would say, not really. The debt is in fact a tool that Hariri and his people were creating (win-win situation for them, pocketing the money, and working towards naturalization of Palestinians) as a tool to be used to naturalize the Palestinians. Major countries offering to solve our financial woes in return for naturalization of Palestinians. We will see this soon enough. Just wait.

But, Mr. Alghaliboon, isn't it the law that after a certain amount of years living in one country one deserves its citizenship and nationality? (I really know only about the US and Europe, but I suppose that's the same everywhere, certainly if generations passed and were born there?)
Why not let them CHOOSE and whoever chose to stay in Lebanon Israel comes forward with compensation money and/or the international community, that are now streaming monies into keeping those camps alive, can develop a plan to help Lebanon's economy with, say, investing in certain areas that would further full integration into society?

Sorry :(

My last comment should be addressed at Lira - my appologies

Tsedek,

On what bases do you ask us to do that? These people came from the lands that you are living on right now. If you don't accept their return, how can you expect us to accept their settlement in our countries? You are using two sets of standards for one thing. If you will say the same for us using these same standards, our only standards of judgement on this issue are based on international norms, and international norms call for the return of refugees.

Mr. AlGhaliboon,
would you think it terrible if those people would chose to stay in Lebanon as full fledged citizens? (other than they would lose their wish to return to israel)
I get the distinct feeling you are very much against that, no matter what... Is it because they're sunnies?
I mean.... what better way would there be to gain respect in your own country by ALL its citizens if you'd 'fight' (verbally of course) for equal rights for ALL people living there (and they do - live there - over 60 years already - been born there as well)
Wouldn't that place the hizb (as political party) straight on the saddle?

international norms call for the return of refugees

You are wrong. The only case were 3rd-generation descendents of refugees are counted as refugees is the Palestinians. That is due solely to the power of Muslim countries in the UN.

Mr. Alghaliboon, yr msg: 02:46

I base that on the fact that there are no other refugees left out of that time (WWII) and there were MILLIONS and for each and everyone a solution was found EXCEPT for these poor people (I mean this!!) - and, for the most part those refugees outta that time were not REsettled but found new lives and lived on.

Why would the Palestinians be an exception?

Mr. AlGhaliboon, my husband and his family can not go back to the country their ancestors have lived for generations upon generations either.... because they were expelled.

Tsedek,

How does one wrong make another right? Your husband and his family should have the right to return to where they were expelled from, too. Why not push for that? What has the Israeli government done to push for that? The answer is, nothing. Because it doesn't want you folks to return, even if the ultimate decision would rest with you, and you might refuse to return anyway. Anyway, I am a firm believer in the right of all people to return to their land.

The issue of the Palestinians is not about the Sunni demographics. In fact many Palestinian Christians and Armenian Christians were naturalized back in the days, because they happened to be Christians, and the Christians wanted to boost their numbers. Anyway, it is not us who are playing the demographic card/argument, it is our enemies. That they want to settle the Palestinians based on sectarian considerations, and that we are opposed to this, does not mean our opposition is sectarian too.

Why don't you just expell the Palestinians? That way they'll have the right of return to Lebanon!

Problem solved.

OK. But seen from a humane point of view don't you think people deserve it to at least live in humane = equal conditions as their fellow countrymen in the land they were born in? (not politically speaking, just purely humane - think about it: your father and mother were born in france because your grandparents had to leave algeria when at war - and you, the second generation being born in france, would still not have the right to a passport or other social conditions everybody else in france have a right to. would you think that fair?)

AlG:

"Should you be bragging about it then?

No; I was not bragging; I don't believe in vain pride. I was only stating a fact [...]"

You should say you are just a humble gardner or something like that, even as you plant bugs on the knesset during the night or mass produce katyushas in your backyard. That would definitely enhance your aura as an international man of mystery.

PS: This is a joke. HA knows everything about jokes, they have long studied the jokes of its enemies, and should not be underestimated.

PS2: This too is a joke. I'll give you a serious answer to the remainder of your post after I eat something and the hallucinations stop.

PS3: err...

Here's a thought:

End the apartheid in Lebanon, and bring down the apartheid walls surrounding the refugee camps.

You could let the Palestinians become Lebanese citizens in small groups, say 5,000 or 10,000 at a time, and halt the process whenever it becomes a problem. ;)

An-Nahar newspaper provides the results of a new Lebanese census with sectarian distribution. They put the Shias at 29.06%. www.annaharonline.com

Thanks to Blacksmiths of Lebanon:
http://blacksmithsoflebanon.blogspot.com/

Sunnis in Iraq are claiming to be a majority too. Everyone in the middle east is delusional or worse.

I think statistics must be a Zionist conspiracy.

MJT,
Your willingness to accept the Palestinians is greatly appreciated. It is the kind of move that could really solve the problem. Imgaine the developed countries each agreeing to take in a percentage of the Palestinian refugees. Wouldn't that make peace in the middle east that much closer!

Unfortunately, I don't see France and other European countries agreeing to this any time soon.

e

E, imagine as the car burners of France meet the bombers of Palestine. Mere arson would seem so effeminate after that.

Bruno Mota, funny!

Josh,
The irony is that the Algerian War of Independence was the model for the Palestinians. Now, the Palestinians can reciprocate and teach the Algerians in France how it is really done. Full circle! Karma! The world is just!
e

The Christians 35%? These people must be hallucinating. Anyhow, anything that comes out of Christian right-wing Annahar is trash. They are the mouthpiece of the war criminal Geagea and follow a strict political agenda.

The only 2 papers I can trust are Al-Intiqad (previously Al-'Ahd) www.intiqadonline.com and Al-Akhbar www.al-akhbar.com , and also the official website of General Aoun's Free Patriotic Movement www.tayyar.org

The world is just!

It's the best of all possible worlds.

The irony is that the Algerian War of Independence was the model for the Palestinians.

Training your children to become suicide murders sounds so satanic that I can't imagine any model for it outside of hell itself, and I'm a non believer.

If Dante were writing today, "The Inferno" would have a ring in it modeled after the Palestinians.

Mr. Dan Marsden oops Mr. AlGhaliboon,

I am sure you do enjoy Al-Intiqad which is a Hezbollah newspaper, and of course the rumours around Al-Akhbar and its financial backers are rife.

Amazing how our Israeli neighbours and pro-Israeli Americans here are picturing Lebanon as the oppressor of Palestinians?

Here's a reminder: Those Palestinians were expelled from their homes in Palestine by Israelis.

What's so hard about that? Israelis lecturing us Lebanese on how to treat refugees they created in the first place.

Well said Lira. These people are a fine example of the pot calling the kettle black. They justify their actions based on the aspirations of the Jewish people for self-determination, but others have no right to say they do not want to naturalize the Palestinians!!

What do you think of the "statistics" published by Al-Nahar?

Lira,
So, my grandfather expelled a Palestinian from his home 60 years ago. How does that make me responsible for anything? You are now responsible for treating the Lebanese Palestinians right because they live in Lebanon and have lived there for SIXTY YEARS. What part of this simple argument do you not understand?
e

AlGhaliboon, as in everything, statistics could be used for a good or bad message.

Whatever the stats show, either 1% of Sunnis, 1% of Christians or 1% of Shiites, that is not an issue as long as we respect each others.

It's not about numbers, I don't respect you for a number but rather for your attachement to your land, to your courage on the field and to the extent of honesty/integrity in governance.

I may differ with you on many points but that should not make me lose respect to you as an individual or as a community, regardless.

e,

The same could be said for what the Jews went through in Europe. The only difference is that many returned (mostly the Jews who had fled Germany to the Soviet Union) and continue to return to this day. Also the difference is that whereas you have denied the Palestinian refugees the right of return for so many decades, the Germans have not done so, and have both paid compensation AND shown willingness to take the Jews back (that many Jews would never go back is another matter). So just because you have denied the Palestinians their right for 60+ years does not mean that they have lost that right.

Lira,

Thank you. And I agree. But I was referring more to the issue of whether Al-Nahar had an agenda in publishing this with such a timing. I have not checked out the paper edition of the newspaper today , do they have any more details other than that graphic? Info on how they have conducted it??

e, you are responsible because you don't let him come back.

And for your info, it is not that simple in Lebanon, we have a crippled economy, I have shown you 2 figures that should alone make you understand where we are at right now: GDP 20 Billion $ whereas Public Debt: 40 Billion $.

We cannot take on half a million refugees, not grant them additional working right, our Lebanese citizens are leaving the country in masses for a lack of opportunities, there are 3 Million Lebanese in the homeland and +10 Million abroad and you ask us what's so simple about accepting more rights such as work permits or even naturalizing all those refugees?

I will send you a message with more details that may be related

Amazing how our Israeli neighbours and pro-Israeli Americans here are picturing Lebanon as the oppressor of Palestinians?

Here's a reminder: Those Palestinians were expelled from their homes in Palestine by Israelis.

What's so hard about that?
Israelis lecturing us Lebanese on how to treat refugees they created in the first place.

I'm not an Israel and I haven't even the slightest incling of love for Israel. But I do care about human beings.

You on the other hand don't even have the concept that there's such a thing as a human being who deserves peace and freedom. Look at you. You don't talk about people you talk about Israelis about Jews, or what the fuck ever, never human beings. You're so fucking primitive!

So you keep people in cages for their entire lives, encourage them to hate your neighbors and attack your neighbor, waiting for the day you can send these poor abused, mentally poisoned children back to where they will continue to kill. You're monsters.

Al,
Are you joking? Most Jews came from Poland and they were never given any compensation or their property back. The Polish Jews have lost all their rights to any property. Even if they can prove with deeds that it is theirs. My wife's grandmother went through this ordeal.

Second, Israel is not at war anymore with Germany and has agreed to forigve. Once the Palestinians stop being at war with us and forgive us, maybe we will be more inclined to discuss something.

In any case, if the Palestinians agree to a monetary compensation instead of the right of return, I would be willing to listen.

Just as the Polish Jews have lost all rights to their property by decree, so have the 48 Palestinians. There are many other such historical examples. You are flogging a dead horse.

e

As for 60 years ago, 60 years ago my great grandfather fled from the German Holocaust. I'm not claiming any right of return. My great grandfather could have, he had that right, but of course he's long dead.

There's a principle hidden in there somewhere.

The only difference between me and the Lebanese Palestinians is that I haven't been kept in a cage my whole life, prevented from owning property so and told that I can never have anything till I go back and avenge my great grandfather.

And I said, you're complete monsters for treating the current generation this way.

Lira, have I expelled them from their homes? Were you there when it happened and are so very convinced that they or at least part of them did not take part into trying to achieve exactly that what has happened to them to the jews?

anyway that's a non-starter. I'm talking about now. Can you imagine israel puts ex-palestinians and now fully-fledged (although, i must admit discriminated against) arab-isreali's in CAMPS in Israel???

your comparison is NOT sound. at all.

The same could be said for what the Jews went through in Europe. The only difference is that many returned (mostly the Jews who had fled Germany to the Soviet Union) and continue to return to this day. Also the difference is that whereas you have denied the Palestinian refugees the right of return for so many decades, the Germans have not done so, and have both paid compensation AND shown willingness to take the Jews back (that many Jews would never go back is another matter). So just because you have denied the Palestinians their right for 60+ years does not mean that they have lost that right.

Yes, Al Ghaliboon, the Israelis should just kill 6 million Palestinians, and then let the rest "come back". Then they will be at the level of the Germans in your eyes.

And this claim that you can't afford to treat the Lebanese Palestinians as human beings is a huge lie. It's economic nonsense.

Keeping them as prisoners isn't less expense than letting them be full, productive citizens, quite the opposite. What the **** is wrong with you?

e,

I was referring to Germany not Poland. Do not change the topic.

Your argument about the Palestinians declaring war is misleading. Israel declared the war in 1967, then for many years the Palestinians did not declare anything, yet you did not accept 1 refugee back, nor even the idea of discussing it. anyway, there is really nothing to discuss, their return should be unconditional, as should their compensation, but we are even willing to compromise and concede on that, and arrive to an understanding of the numbers and process. But as usual you always come up with excuses.

But way to go, justifying your wrongdoings based on the wrongdoings of others (Poles). Guess we now know who you take your inspiration and examples from.

"The Christians 35%? These people must be hallucinating."

Really? How so? His analysis was based on facts and records from 1907 - 2006. Of course you are going to dismiss this because according to the study, there are just as many Shia in Lebanon as there are Sunni, which goes against the whole numbers thing you push your chest about.

Lira,

Don't make me laugh. And I am also responsible for the problems in Darfur because I won't accept those refugees in Israel either. It is an historical fact that 60 years ago my ancestors expelled Palestinians. Regardless of whether this was good or bad, the Palestinians in Lebanon are your problem because they are living there now. That is how things work. I don't blame the Romans for the Holocaust and not even the Germans living today. There is nobody alive today that is reponsible for that. But a country is still responsible for people living within its borders.

I agree you need help assimilating them and I would support giving this aid to Lebanon.

e

Josh Scholar, you sir are disrespectful, tone down your language and stop putting hate etiquettes on people you don't know nothing about.

e,

I was referring to Germany not Poland. Do not change the topic.

Your argument about the Palestinians declaring war is misleading. Israel declared the war in 1967, then for many years the Palestinians did not declare anything, yet you did not accept 1 refugee back, nor even the idea of discussing it. anyway, there is really nothing to discuss, their return should be unconditional, as should their compensation, but we are even willing to compromise and concede on that, and arrive to an understanding of the numbers and process. But as usual you always come up with excuses.

But way to go, justifying your wrongdoings based on the wrongdoings of others (Poles). Guess we now know who you take your inspiration and examples from.

e,

I was referring to Germany not Poland. Do not change the topic.

Your argument about the Palestinians declaring war is misleading. Israel declared the war in 1967, then for many years the Palestinians did not declare anything, yet you did not accept 1 refugee back, nor even the idea of discussing it. anyway, there is really nothing to discuss, their return should be unconditional, as should their compensation, but we are even willing to compromise and concede on that, and arrive to an understanding of the numbers and process. But as usual you always come up with excuses.

But way to go, justifying your wrongdoings based on the wrongdoings of others (Poles). Guess we now know who you take your inspiration and examples from.

Lira, have I expelled them from their homes? Were you there when it happened and are so very convinced that they or at least part of them did not take part into trying to achieve exactly that what has happened to them to the jews?

anyway that's a non-starter. I'm talking about now. Can you imagine israel puts ex-palestinians and now fully-fledged (although, i must admit discriminated against) arab-isreali's in CAMPS in Israel???

your comparison is NOT sound. at all.

Really? How so? His analysis was based on facts and records from 1907 - 2006. Of course you are going to dismiss this because according to the study, there are just as many Shia in Lebanon as there are Sunni, which goes against the whole numbers thing you push your chest about.
first of all the paper claims to be publishing the first census since 1960 which is not true. the last census was 1932. also, i am yet to receive the detailed information but i hear that the stats also includes 1 million expatriates because i don't think the population of lebanon is somewhere around 5 million !

does this include the palestinian refugees?

it surely includes the thousands of sunnis who were naturalized by saudi arabia's servant hariri, no? and also the armenians and palestinian christians naturalized by the Christians to boost the numbers that you now accuse me of bragging about.

Josh Scholar, you sir are disrespectful, tone down your language and stop putting hate etiquettes on people you don't know nothing about.

It's not hate, it's a judgment of the horrible immorality of your actions and causes.

I notice that you never make the slightest attempt to answer the criticisms of your immoral actions and causes either.

tsedek @ 12.08, we're talking about civilians, not militants, they have done nothing to you that prevents them from going back home.

Al,
You were trying to pull a fast one by using Germany as an example to show that Jews were compensated while the majority were not. The issue is compensation for refugees and the large majority of Jewsigh refugees were not compensated. It is you that are trying to cloud the issues and that is not nice.

I didn't discuss any war, so I don't know what you are talking about. It is an undiputable historical fact that the Arabs declared the war of 48 after rejecting the 47 partition plan. I can provide you with evidence if you wish.

Yes, I take my example from the Poles. I am no better or worse than them. Have a problem with that or do you have something bad to say about the Poles too?

e

And may I remind you all about this:

Had there been no Arab aggression, no war, no invasion by Arab armies whose intent was avowedly genocidal, not only would there have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.

Israel offered to return land it had acquired in defending itself against the Arab aggression in exchange for a formal peace. It made this offer during the Rhodes Armistice talks and Lausanne conference in 1949. The Arab rulers refused. Had Israel’s offer been accepted, there could have been prompt and just resolution to all the problems that have afflicted the region since. The only problem that wouldn’t have been resolved to the satisfaction of the Arabs was their desire to obliterate the state of Israel. After their victory, Israel passed a law that allowed Arab refugees to re-settle in Israel provided they would sign a form in which they renounced violence, swore allegiance to the state of Israel, and became peaceful productive citizens. During the decades of this law’s tenure, more than 150,000 Arab refugees have taken advantage of it to resume productive lives in Israel.

It should be completely obvious to any reasonable and fair-minded observer of this history, therefore, that it was not the creation of the State of Israel that caused the Arab refugee problem, nor was it Israel that obstructed its solution.

On the contrary, the Arab refugee problem was the direct result of the aggression of the Arab states, and their refusal after failing to obliterate Israel to sign a formal peace, or to take care of the refugees who remained outside Israel’s borders.

Anyway, after this blop-up of double messages, the only thing I wanted to clear up is that I, as a human being, can't stand people are discriminated against, may they be whoever they are (etiquettes don't make any difference, we all have red blood) - and, that it's for that matter that I do whatever lies in my miniscule power what I can to speak up and act against. Here.
Maybe I'm naive to think that other people in other countries feel the same responsibility.

tsedek @12.08 (continued), since they are in Palestine, I would expect them to go back to their lands and homes.

thanks

tsedek @ 12.29, if you are so concerned about those human beings then please help them come bac k to their homeland.

Lira @ 12:20

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18072

~~~After their victory, Israel passed a law that allowed Arab refugees to re-settle in Israel provided they would sign a form in which they renounced violence, swore allegiance to the state of Israel, and became peaceful productive citizens. During the decades of this law’s tenure, more than 150,000 Arab refugees have taken advantage of it to resume productive lives in Israel.~~~

You think it's not true?

AlG: "Yes, returning to their "homes" means returning to the land, these homes most probably no longer exist; entire villages have been completely wiped out, often replaced with Kibbutzim [...]"

But it goes beyond that. They were a community that was uprooted and largely replaced with another. Today their culture survives in the camps in exile and among their brehtrem in the WB & Gaza; but if they were to return to Israel, they would remain strangers in what is effectively someonelse's land, or they would make the Israeli Jews strangers in their own homeland. In either case its too high a price to pay to stick to an absolutist point of principle. Their home, and place of residence, should be an independent Palestine.

You say you support Tsedek's husband's family right of return to wherever they were expelled from (but are you willing to fight for it, putting your own country on the line?). From what I gather they have found a home in Israel; while their former home elsewhere no longer exists. I don't see what good could come from a 'return' in this case. Recognizing this new reality does not imply forgeting or minimizing past injustices.

This insistence on an absolute right of return serves no good purpose (there are plenty of bad, cynical purposes though), it just helps to prolong the sufering. And I find it somewhat cynical that some Lebanese profess a total support of Palestinian aspirations even as they deny the Palestinians residing in their own country the most basic living conditions.

Lira, the Lebanese are not responsible for what Israelis did 50+ years ago. But they are responsible for treating the refugees residing in Lebanon humanely today. Blaming Israel for whatever is not a get out of jail card, you still are responsible for your own actions.

where they were born you mean? ok. but everyone else that was not born here can stay in THEIR own homeland then?

And Yafawi, may I remind you that we are talking of LEBANON here, the Lebanese State did not participate in ANY war against Israel post the 1949 armistice, can you acknowledge once and for all that Lebanon and "the Arabs" are too different things?

"The Arabs" did not move an eyebrow while our citizens were getting massacred during the last war (+1200 killed), "The Arabs" were secretely (and maybe not so secretely) hoping for a Hezbollah defeat during the last war, a substantial portion of the Lebanese population does not even identify itself as being Arab while the identity of Lebanese as an Arab state hasn't been formally decided upon until the 1989 Taef agreements and still anyone could tell you that Lebanon is not your typical "Arab" state.

So could you please take that Arab mess off our hands because if you suffered from the Arabs we have also received our large share of Arabs funding different warring militias to fuel our civil wars, from the Syrian "sister" to the Saudi "brothers" to Egypt the mother of the "Arab League", what Arabs?

So could you please take that Arab mess off our hands because if you suffered from the Arabs we have also received our large share of Arabs funding different warring militias to fuel our civil wars, from the Syrian "sister" to the Saudi "brothers" to Egypt the mother of the "Arab League", what Arabs?

Lira, we should be allays, why are you blaming me rather than Syria, Jordan, and Egypt for your problems? Why do you want me to solve your problems with blood and money, rather than them?

It is not I that confuses Lebanon with "the Arabs" it is you.

"allays" should be "allies"

@Lira,
you CANNOT go through decennia of wars and attacks on your very existence and then pretend nothing happened (and is still happening) and reverse time. You can only - in a PEACEFUL way - look and negotiate the most satisfactory solutions for ALL. On the other hand, if this is an ongoing war and it will never end: so be it. But, where is your heart?

tsedek @ 12.41, what is it about the "being born" thing, do you think that Palestinians applied for an immigration visa to Lebanon and then lived and prospored here, you know we have a process in Lebanon to grant citizenship and that outdated the Palestinian refugees and even the creation of the state of Israel, our constitution dates back to 1926 and we intend to respect it.

think again, why were they born outside Palestine?

and Bruno, I think that you're giving Lebanon and the Lebanese too much credit in terms of economy/resources, we're imploding and any economical report would tell you that, then you come back to us preaching virtues while the USA/G8/Israel have combined an economy of trillions.

Get off that imaginary horse and help us please.

Lira,
If you are not an Arab country then why do you keep saying that you will be the last Arab country to sign peace with Israel? Why do you then suddenly care about being Arab? Stop the hypocrisy and come to the negotiating table and we will work something out.

(And please, no more "nothing is simple" responses. Explain your dillemas instead of trying to mask them with vague statements)

e

You'll never respond to any of the arguments here are you Lira, not the good ones.

And you will only find someone else to blame, and never certainly never take responsibility for the horrors of your own causes or own actions. Nor will you propose anything that's humane to anyone but yourself - you just want to kick out the Lebanese Palestinians - if they all fight a sectarian war somewhere else, forever, it wouldn't even occur to you to be bothered.

That's my opinion of you, and of your culture, because you're a pea in a pod, all alike in those ways. You have no concept of sharing humanity with anyone outside your group and no responsibility to be moral to this human race that you don't recognize.

Btw: isn't it "weird" that a country doesn't officially know how many percent differently religion-related population it has??

tsedek, I have posted at length on this blog, you could check my previous comments in the archives, MJT even featured one reply of mine, I am all for peace but on equal terms that protect our rights as Lebanese and the rights of Palestinians and Israelis (because we believe that there would be no peace if those two people as well don't get proper terms), you can check for that or I can do it for you; it's in the past few months

• The Arafat plan;

* talk peace to the West while pushing stealth and murder against Israel in Lebanon.*

This seems to be the unchanged policy of Hizbullah today. No?

Christian ethic is to admit everyone has sinned but to stop fighting and begin to tolerate each other without violence.

Hezbullah ethic is to continue killing until no Jew and eventually no Christian is left.

The Hezbullah ethic is impossible to complete and seems designed to create a vacuum to be filled by Iranian / Persian Shiite.

I consider all religions to be man made clubs for cooperative gain. Forgive me. I am not very well educated.

Choosing between the two; the non-destructive Christian ethic seems to be a healthier plan.

After thirty plus years of hate training, I wonder what percentage of Palastinians can begin to see the better life that the laying down of arms could bring.

Seems as though many were enjoying a very good lifestyle with tourism and wealth before the war.

Sad to say, I can not see how Hezbullah can contribute to the happiness of Lebanese / Palastinians.

Maybe Mr. AlGhaliboon can explain how that will come about. = TG

@Lira,
I will later, thank you. I will look for it then.
At the moment either my pc or this site is acting 'funny'

Lira,

You have posted two comments since I posted my last one. Are you going to ignore me?

Tell me, are you Arab or not? Can we ally against our common enemies or not? It looks to me like you want to be Arab more than you want to solve your problems, so your comment of 12:42 PM is a lie.

Please, tell me I'm wrong.

Btw: isn't it "weird" that a country doesn't officially know how many percent differently religion-related population it has??

It has been hinted to me that this sort of thing, like the unwillingness to treat the Palestinians in Lebanon like human beings comes from this dynamic:

If any Muslim sect feels that it is a majority, it will take over, end democracy and impose its law on the rest of the country. That census will be frozen in time forever, to force, for the first time in history, different Muslim sects to live in one country without dominating each other.

@Lira,
I will later, thank you. I will look for it then.
At the moment either my pc or this site is acting 'funny'

Regarding why Lebanon won't naturalize the Palestinians. It's the exact same reason why Israel won't take them back. All doctrinarian nonesense aside, the equation is pretty simple:
* Israel is a jewish state. Taking on that many non-jewish people will upset the demographics of balance in Israel and potentially make it a state with a non-jewish majority.

• Lebanon has a delicate sectarian balance and taking on 500,000 sunni palestinians would also upset the demographics there.

It's really that simple folks: Demographics is the only reason neither Lebanon, nor Israel will ever willingly accept the Palestinian refugees as permanent citizens.

Lira:
"and Bruno, I think that you're giving Lebanon and the Lebanese too much credit in terms of economy/resources, we're imploding and any economical report would tell you that, then you come back to us preaching virtues while the USA/G8/Israel have combined an economy of trillions."

How allowing them to build decent houses going to impair your economy? All I'm saying is that they deserve to be treated decently. The US/G8/UN picks up most of the bill already, as they most Palestinians in Lebanon rely on UNRWA handouts to survive. In any case, allowing them to take part in your formal economy might actually help it.

"Get off that imaginary horse and help us please."

I don't know what I can personally do to help you, but I can say though that my country accepted literally millions of Lebanese refugees from your civil war (for which we of course bore no responsibility whatsoever). They are today a successful and well-integrated minority, and no one had to spend time in stinking camps.

As I said before, the delicate ethnic balance of your country may prevent you from naturalizing them (which they are not really demanding anyway, as far as I can tell), but it does not absolve Lebanon from its minimum responsibilities as a host country. It is reasonable to ask the international community to help you cope financially, but you can't ignore them altogether.

Bruno, i agree that the Palestinians are treated badly and should be treated equally, but they should not be naturalized because that would mean giving up their right of return. also, if some people have chosen not to fight for returning to their homeland it does not mean that others should adopt their worldview. what you say about the palestinians being unable to fit in and being alienated or alienating the jews is not true, and even if true it is not a good enough excuse to violate their right of return.

the christian palestinians who were naturalized and also the armenian christians and non-lebanese sunnis should be de-naturalized.

Tsedek,

It is not weird that we do not "know" our demographic realities. Actually we know it, but some people are in denial about it and have hired a bunch of incompetents to prove that the Christians still are the largest group and that the Shi'ites are only 29% of the population, allegedly like the Sunnis!!! let those brave people accept an official census, and we can see whether the christians constitute 35% and sunnis 29%.

"Get off that imaginary horse and help us please."
[Gets off iHorse through wick rotation]

Vilbel, OK.

I'm curious if you can explain Egypt, Syria and Jordan's treatment of their Palestinian refugees as well.

BV,
Thank you for the honest answer. Glad to see you piping in.

You still have to figure out what to do with them though. The problem will only get worse over time.
e

...should be de-naturalized...

That says it all. The communal face of the middle east is the most heartless in the world, with the possible exception of Rwanda.

Al,
If some want to fight for their homeland it does not mean that those who don't want to fight should be forced to do it. Give each Palestinian when he reaches the age of 18 the right to choose whether to fight for the right of return or become a Lebanese citizen.
e

e, since you were the ones who created that problem, i would be grateful if you could: "give each Palestinian when he reaches the age of 18 the right to choose whether to fight for the right of return or become an Israeli citizen"!!!

but i guess you suffer from the complex of pushing everything onto others. at the rate this is going we might as well award you the biggest angels of the world award.

Al Ghaliboon,

The Palestinians had their chance to go back to their "homeland" (see above, 12:28 PM). They refused.

Mr. AlGhaliboon - 01:20PM

thank you.

but I meant an official population count by governmental offices.

the CIA World Factbook says the flwg about it, but that doesn't help much:

~~~~~Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3%
note: 17 religious sects recognized~~~~~

Al,
I created the problem? What are you talking about. I was born many years after 1948. Stop already with this useless cliche. Soon you will be blaming the Romans.

The Palestinians live in Lebanon and are your problem. Anybody who lives in Israel is my problem. See my responses above to Lira.

e

Stop already with this useless cliche.

He can't. He doesn't have the freedom to change his mind, he a member of Hezbollah tribe now. His mind is not his own to change.

Tsedek, the last official count was in 1932.

e, by the same token you should repay Germany most of the compensation money it has given your government? I can see that happening. I can see you yelling foul play over the comparison. And I will keep making this comparison because I know it annoys you and your apologists, because it is a correct one.

Al,
The compensation from Germany was decided on in the 50's when the people who were actually responsible for the crimes were alive and decided to do it.

Had the Palestinians negotiated with Israel after the 48 war, they may have gotten compensation. But they didn't want to talk to Israel. The Jews decided to forgive the Germans and talk to them. That is why the Germans were willing to pay compensation.

The Palestinians missed their opportunity. I wasn't there in 48. I am not responsible for what happened and the history since then does not make me inclined to compensate them. If they forgive and decide to negotiate, things may change.

e

e, by the same token you should repay Germany most of the compensation money it has given your government?

I'm sure everyone has forgotten that money. Nobody cares at all anymore.

I can see you yelling foul play over the comparison. And I will keep making this comparison because I know it annoys you and your apologists, because it is a correct one.

It's pathetic how belligerent you are over a non-sequitur argument. Can you really convince yourself with that nonsense? You're so dishonest.

Mr. Josh Scholar, could you please respond without getting personal, I beg of you?
Does it make a problem go away if you (or anybody for that matter) attack someone personally in a discussion?

Of course nobody cares anymore at all is how civilized people handle such things. They move on, rather than, say teaching their children to write suicide notes etc. etc. etc.

What about the property of the nearly one million Jews from Islamic, mostly Arab, lands that were forced to flee their homes, most of whom ended up in Israel? What about their rights to compensation?

How is it fair that after having suffered in Arab lands, getting expelled or coerced to flee, these Jews should be turned into a minority in Israel thanks to the right of return?

Has there ever been any situation in the world whereby refugees, their children, their grandchildren and even great grandchildren, all have a "right" to return and insist they must?

The Palestinians and their supporters don't seem to want 100% justice-- they want 300% justice!

And this ignores the fact that the vast majority of Palestinian refugees either live within mandatory Palestine (Jordan, West Bank and Gaza) or in another Arabic speaking Muslim majority state.

After 1948 there was essentially an exchange of populations between the Jews and Arabs. This has happened all over the world in many times in many places in much higher numbers. Only with the Palestinians does this problem still linger.

Arabs like Lira an Al G. clearly hate Jews and Israel far more than they love their fellow Arab Muslims.

Josh Scholar is right: These people are despicable.

Tsedek if middle eastern society is never judged, if people are never blamed for the horrible crimes they cause then they will never improve. When the barbaric meets the civilized, there must be sparks. It must be painful, always, otherwise ythey won't learn, and they will remain barbaric forever.

If they were capable of profiting from purely dispassionate discussion then that would suffice. But they do not.

The desperately, desperately need modern ideas. But they can't gain those ideas unless they relinquish the horribly dysfunctional tribal attitudes those ideas must replace, and that happen unless those tribal attitudes are attacked whenever they cause harm.

This is a ridiculous argument. Neither Lebanon nor Israel can absorb all these refugees.

If it were up to me, I would agree to accept all of them them in the United States so you Lebanese and Israelis can work out a way to live next to other at least quietly if not amicably.

How about we all (expect our fanatical Hezbollah guest) agree to work toward something like that? It might actually work. Neither Lebanon nor Israel can deal with this problem by themselves. It isn't possible, it will never happen, and the sooner everyone realizes this, the better.

"Expect" above should be "except"

I read somewhere once that a mark of the tribal mentality is when a group seems to say that "The worst among is still preferable to the best among the other."

No matter how maximalist are the Palestinian demands or Hezbollah goals (destroy Israel), no matter how despicable and savage their methods (suicide bombing, hate-mongering), rarely will you find an Arab of any faith, or a Muslim, who would not side with the Palestinians or Hezbollah first.

Joshua Scholar is right and there will be no peace between Arabs and Muslims and the rest, nor even among themsevles, until the Arab and Muslim peoples break out of this tribal mindset.

I think Mr. Totten that retrieving land from the sea would be a nice idea. Wonder why this is not taken seriously every time I bring it up ....

If it were up to me, I would agree to accept all of them them in the United States so you Lebanese and Israelis can work out a way to live next to other at least quietly if not amicably.

How about we all (except our fanatical Hezbollah guest) agree to work toward something like that?

Of course, any Israeli would agree to that!

It's in your court, Lebanese commenters!

MJT,
As I said before, it is a wondeful idea. As an Israeli, I would be ashamed though to ask the US to take risks that I am not willing to take myself. The slightest problem with the Palestinians or any terror attack by them against Americans will be my fault irregardless of how galant you are. I am not sure it is worth it.
e

Mr. AlGhaliboon,

I realize you are tired of this public relations challenge. You seem to have done fairly well, but I notice you are dealing with the trivia of population figures rather than mainline policy.

Two final questions.

[1] August 5th and Sept. 14th Amnesty International and Human rights watch have labeled Hezbollah with War Crimes. Were those crimes policy or poor control? Will you provide assurance that war crimes are not Hezbollah policy?

[2] How does Hezbollah plan to install stability and a return to normal happy living for the people you are trying to help? Or are the people you are trying to help in Iran? = TG

Bruno, i agree that the Palestinians are treated badly and should be treated equally, but they should not be naturalized because that would mean giving up their right of return. (AG)

Why exactly should they have an automatic right of return?

Round about the same time that the Palestinians left or were expelled from pre 1948 Israel, millions of Europeans were being displaced from their homes after the second world war. Not withstanding the fact that many (for example, Germans in Poland and Czechoslovakia) were expelled because of Naziism, what happened was inhuman.

Initially they were in refugee camps. But eventually they were resettled permanently. The older generation still demanded the right to go back, but if you talk to someone from (say) Munich whose grandparents were expelled from Silesia (now Poland), in almost every circumstance s/he would have no desire to go back to a place s/he's never seen before and has no real connection with.

Contrast that to the Arab world. Again, the fact that a lot of Palestinians were expelled was wrong. But unlike in Europe where the refugees were resetlled and integrated into society, they were left festering in camps. With the end effect that you have 20 or 30 year olds claiming to be from Lod or Haifa just because their grandparents were from there, despite the fact that the Lod of today is a very different place to that of 1947.

Yes, some kind of just settlement has to be found for these people.

But let's not kid ourselves. "Right of return" inside the green line has always been a code word for the end of Israel. Implemented in full it would create a demographic time bomb and in a short period of time you'd effectively have two states where Palestinian Arabs were in the majority.

Which is why people like you are so adamant that it has to happen...

As for telling Jews who were expelled from Europe in the 30s or from the Arab states in the 50s that they too could go back, let's get real.

Someone whose grandfather left Yemen in 1950 is no more from Yemen than someone whose grandfather left Haifa in 1947 is from Haifa.

Hey, you know, there's a continent to the North-West where they killed 6 million Jews. Now, they can't resettle them because, you know, they're dead. But they could take 6 million Palestinians by way of atonement, and just solve that whole Middle East problem once and for all!

Yafawi,
That would be cruel and unjust punishment for the Palestinians. They shouldn't be made to suffer twice. :)
e

Josh Scholar,

Lebanon is a bit different than Egypt and Jordan for a simple reason: Those 2 countries are not as demographically diverse.
Jordan did have its problems with the Palestinians in the early 70s, and pretty much chose to export the problem (by kicking out the PLO) and offloading it to Lebanon. Same with most other arab countries.

The big difference between Lebanon and these other countries is that Lebanon has no weaker country to dump the Palestinian problem on (Lebanon itself being the weakest sucker in the neighbourhood).

To use a metaphor from everyone's personal lives: Imagine you live in a nice neighbourhood, and one day, a bunch of homeless men land in your front yard, set up camp, and claim to be refugees from hurricane katrina. You COULD do the noble thing and take them in...but deep inside, you figure if you could offload them on some other poor shmuck in the neighbourhood, you wouldn't have to deal with the headache...So you find the lamest sucker in the area (Lebanon) and you offload the homeless men there. Then, from your holier than thou porch, you go on about how the victims of Hurrican Katrina should be reimbursed, and helped and blah blah blah...In the meantime, poor Lebanon guy is stuck with these homeless folks and being the biggest sucker in the neighbourhood, he doesn't know how to get rid of them either.

That's about it in a nutshell.

e,

We do need to figure out what to do with them, by default, because they are in our backyard now (to continue with my metaphore). but it REALLY would be nice if some of the other parties involved who dumped them on us in the first place, offered some sort of solution instead of leaving the burden on us.

It's real easy for Egypt, Jordan and Syria to trumpet the "right of return" when they're not the ones who have to bare the burden of 500,000 refugees in their countries. (Well, i realize Jordan has a lot of Palestinians, but that's kind of a special circumstance there, being that a lot of them are not really refugees, but rather native to Jordan).

All politics aside...You people who are talking about Europe and the Jews of WW2.

(1) Up to this day, there are REPARATIONS being paid. There are ongoing lawsuits. There are certain assets being returned (looted art, for example). These problems don't go away just because 60 years have passed. The key though, is dealing with them in a civilized manner. But let's not pretend that "bygones are bygones" when it comes to the Holocaust, WW2, and the treatment of jews by Europe.

(2) The notion of settling the Palestinians in Europe is ludicrious. Europe has enough problems with the assimilation of immigrants over the past 20+ years. Both economic and cultural. Let's face it, European countries are not "immigration savvy" like say, Australia, the US or Canada. Having said that, I think that ultimately, Palestinians will have to accept being settled SOMEWHERE (even if one of the choices includes the West Bank or Gaza).

When you keep generation after generation of Palestinians locked in Lebanese refugee camps, denied equality, denied citizenship, denied professions, denied education, denied basic human rights, it's clear who is: "justifying your wrongdoings based on the (alleged) wrongdoings of others"

Man... this website is having server problems....

Another point, let's take Canada, the country I grew up in.

Besides being full of immigrants, it has some very distinct cultures. The native cultures, see the governments of the northern territories (are they still called "territories"?), the anglo provinces and the French in Quebec. And as for a history of injustice and displacement, Canada has that in spades. Treaties were broken, and Indians were kicked off their lands.

But unlike Iraq, for instance, there's nothing anyone could pay any Canadians that would get members of these groups killing each other. The groups are very culturally distinct, but they're each a damn site more civilized you lot!!!

Frankly I consider an insult to native American tribes to call middle easterners "tribal" but we have to have some word for your horrible attitude.

BV,
I think Lebanon should be given a large sum of money by the international community (including Israel but don't tell anyone about this) in order to assimilate the Palestinians. It is your problem, but you are right that you need and deserve help to solve it.
e

I think over the last 50 years the death count for nutcase French "resistance" fighting in Canada is all of three people. And those were just one group of nutcases with no support anywhere.

And Canada has eight times the population of Lebanon.

The problem with the "right of return" is that it is arbitrary. Even if you decide to apply it equally across the world, you are still faced with defining an arbitrary time from which to start. Because if you go back far enough, every people, of every culture and religion, arrived where they are today from somewhere else.

To take just the example of the eastern Mediterranian we discuss here: how do we justify demanding that the Palestinians be returned to the land that they had before 1947, but not accept that the Jews should be allowed to the land that they had before being forceably removed by the Romans? Does this "right" of return come with a "use by" date?

Demographics, nothing.

Jews can't live among Palestinians who've been taught murderous hatred of Jews for two generations now.

"The right of return" is impossible as long as Jews don't want their kids killed by people who hate them. Ie., it just can't happen.

Vibel, I didn't realize that Egypt, Jordan and Syria had offloaded most of their refugees onto Lebanon. How many refugees remain in those countries?

I also have trouble getting a clear picture of which groups of civilians have been massacred in Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Were the massacres of the recent past all Palestinian refugees? I mean I know that Sabra and Shatila were Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, so Lebanon's status isn't in question, but I wonder about those other massacres.

Josh,

You kinda lost me there. Might wanna look up a few quick historical notes about the 60s-70s and the PLO (I don't have numbers or accurate figures).

In the early 70s, the PLO tried to operate as a state within a state in Jordan, at some point, they even wanted to overthrow then King Hussein. The Jordanian army then proceeded to put down the "insurgency" and pretty much kicked out most of the PLO presence in Jordan. These folks moved to South Lebanon where they proceeded to form their state within a state over there. Lebanon, unlike Jordan, did not have the ability to kick them out.

Even worse, Lebanon was pretty much forced to accept what is called the "Cairo accord" by the other arab states, giving free hand to the PLO to operate bases in South Lebanon.

To go back to my neighbourhood metaphore. Not only did you kick the homeless guys off your lawn, you also forced them into the neighbours yard, and forced him to sign a peace of paper saying he'd take care of them.

That's neither here nor there though. Ancient history. The problem is now in Lebanon's backyard, and Lebanon has to deal with it in some way.

PS: I disagree with your comment about Jews not wanting Palestinians in Israel out of fear. That may be the sentiment TODAY. but looking at it from a much wider angle, Israel's issue (not unlike Lebanon's) is very much demographic:

How do you preserve the jewish character of a state if the majority of its people are non-jews? Either through apartheid (rule of a minority over a majority) meaning Israel ceases to be a Democracy, or if you want to preserve Democracy, then you end up with an Arab majority ruling Israel, thus negating the "jewish character" of the state. In other words, if you ever allowed Palestinians back into Israel (coupled with the higher natality rate of arabs), you'd be forcing Israel to make an existential choice of democracy or jewishness (but not both).

Israel will simply NEVER accept that. EVER.

And it has nothing to do with being afraid of Palestinian bombers...Trust me on that. hell, ask any Israeli here.

"I think Mr. Totten that retrieving land from the sea would be a nice idea. Wonder why this is not taken seriously every time I bring it up ...."

It's possible, just add on to the gaza territories and create a state the size of Israel in the sea in exchange for shaping up and not acting like idiots anymore. Then build some huge walls and leave each other alone for a while.

It's better then my peace plan:
Step 1: take territory from canada
Step 2: Make either the pal's or jews move there
Step 3: Destroy Jerusalem once and for all.

TG,

I will answer your questions but I find it ironic that you are so obsessed with Hizbullah's war crimes when Israel killed more than 1200 civilians and only ~100 Hizbullah fighters whereas the losses on the Israeli side were a total of 163, 119 of them soldiers.

(1) First, they were not war crimes, as they were not unprovoked, unlike the Israelis' actions against our civilians. But no, they were NOT in poor control. There has been no poor control on our side since 1996, when a stray rocket was launched across the border. It was a policy, although this policy did not exist until our civilians were targeted. So the policy was: whenever our civilians are targeted, we would respond in kind.

(2) We have already provided much to our people, and we will continue in this path God willing. We will continue to keep our weapons because they are the primary guarantee for stability against Israeli craving for the waters of the Litani river, which they have made no secret of coveting. That's the first thing. The second is rebuilding, and we will do this EVERY SINGLE TIME the Israelis try to destroy our country. We have the means, and will continue to do so. The third is providing services, and we will broaden our base to include more services and more capabilities to serve more people. We will build state of the art facilities, schools (in replacement for the destroyed ones), planned structuring of the towns and villages we will be building, including systems that would ensure the security and safety of our civilians from the Israelis' bombings.

I disagree with your comment about Jews not wanting Palestinians in Israel out of fear. That may be the sentiment TODAY.

Today (and tomorrow) are the only days that count.

I agree that the demographic issue seems to be a nonstarter, but I suspect that something deeper has been going on since the beginning. After all the Palestinians who were expelled were expelled precisely because they were attacking Jews, and showed that they could not be trusted to make peace.

The problem of safety has been the motivation from the beginning. Just because it gets no discussion doesn't mean that it's not primary.

In any case it has become clearer, every decade, that Palestinian culture as a whole has become ever more imbued with murderous intent toward the Jews. Talked about or not, it's obvious, it is primary. To make an example, you wouldn't let John Wayne Gacy babysit your children, and you wouldn't have to talk about that decision, everybody would just know why.

Mr. AlGhaliboon,
it wouldn't just be cheaper to stop provoking Israel?

Al,
The story about the Litani water is lie. Israel does not want Lebanon's water and if HA disarms it will not start a war to get them.

You are using the lie as an excuse to stay armed. On other forums you give the excuse for your arms as a need to dissuade Israel from taking south Lebanon and colonizing it. At least here you didn't use that preposterous response.
e

Mr. Mikek,
my idea is indeed a helluvalot better LOL

We have already provided much to our people, and we will continue in this path God willing. We will continue to keep our weapons because they are the primary guarantee for stability against Israeli craving for the waters of the Litani river, which they have made no secret of coveting. That's the first thing. The second is rebuilding, and we will do this EVERY SINGLE TIME the Israelis try to destroy our country.

No one believes that Israel wants Lebanon. They want safety, period. And no one believes that they care about your water so much either. They've made the desert bloom without your help already. They can afford water.

You're not fooling anyone except maybe yourself.

But why do you suppose that AlGhaliboon is posting here, answering questions, and asking questions of his own?
-Double-plus-ungood

Might I suggest a few choice phrases for you to meditate on? Or perhaps even google?

Disinformatsya
Mariskova
polesnye idioty

To quote Monty Pyhton:

"Listen, lad. I built this kingdom up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was swamp. Other kings said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built it all the same, just to show 'em. It sank into the swamp. So, I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So, I built a third one. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp, but the fourth one... stayed up! And that's what you're gonna get, lad: the strongest castle in these islands."

I'm sorry AlG, but that is how you sound like at the moment.

Tsedek, it would be cheaper if Israel returns our prisoners, Sheba'a farms, KfarChouba Hills, and all minefield maps, and stops violating our airspace. But since Israel did not do any of these things, we had to force it to do it, and were quite successful at it, too. Cheaper or not, we are dedicated to our cause.

Bruno the rhetoric of thugs doesn't really carry over the internet. Over the internet Hezbollah's rhetoric is missing that vital element that makes it work in Lebanon, the gun to your head, the threat that you'd better pretend to respect them or else.

The story about the Litani water is lie. Israel does not want Lebanon's water and if HA disarms it will not start a war to get them.

You are using the lie as an excuse to stay armed. On other forums you give the excuse for your arms as a need to dissuade Israel from taking south Lebanon and colonizing it. At least here you didn't use that preposterous response.

As I said. This is obvious. AlGhaliboon exposes himself as a liar again.

And since every one of his lies has been an excuse for violence, or war or to stay armed, he's also exposed himself as a thug.

Josh & e, the craving of the Litani is not a lie, indeed, the Zionists included the Litani in their proposal for a Jewish state that they presented in 1919, and numerous references have been made to the Litani over the years, including the desire to occupy and settle all the way to the Litani, and establish a Christian state north of it. This was the rationale of the Israeli invasion in 1982, and they tried in vain but were unsuccessful at it, culminating in the abrogation of the may 17 agreement.

Al,
Successful?
Sheba? No.
Prisoners? No.
Overflights? No.
KfarChouba? No.
Maps? Yes, you are welcome. Expensive buggers these maps. Ask your fellow Lebanese.
e

AlGhaliboon is useful for telling us what crap is being peddled as propaganda by Hezbollah these days.

Successful? ---- yes
Sheba? No. ---- soon
Prisoners? No. ---- sooner
Overflights? No. ---- when we install the anti-aircraft artillery provided by Iran
KfarChouba? No. ---- soon

Success is measured by the end result, not the middle recuperation period.

Al,
On the flag of the Irgun is trans jordan. My grandfather was a communist and the French invented moving pictures. Who cares?

I am an Israeli and I am telling you that we do not want a single piece of Lebanon or more than our fair share of water from Lebanon as per the international water conventions (Israel is downstream from Lebanon and certain rivers flow from Lebanon to Israel).

Stop using it as an excuse. Oh yes, Ben Gurion kissed my uncle once. I hope this doesn't matter.

e

Repeat after me, Israel made the desert bloom without the Litani.

They know they can't occupy Arabs, that has been tried and it failed.

The religious Zionists have lost Israel and even most of them know that "greater Israel" couldn't possibly work.

What got speculated at the beginning of the previous century is completely irrelevant. Look to the current polls if you want to understand Israel. It's a fucking democracy, it's constantly polled and the politicians do what the public demands. It's REALLY simple.

Hey, dope! You went to college, you should know that you can't rely on propaganda sources for your news.

Another thing:
"First, they were not war crimes, as they were not unprovoked,"
They remain war crimes even if committed in response to another crime. Why is it that warring parts in the ME act as if the crimes by one's enemies excuses one's own?

Successful? ---- yes
Sheba? No. ---- soon
Prisoners? No. ---- sooner
Overflights? No. ---- when we install the anti-aircraft artillery provided by Iran
KfarChouba? No. ---- soon

Success is measured by the end result, not the middle recuperation period.

Another thing:
"First, they were not war crimes, as they were not unprovoked,"
They remain war crimes even if committed in response to another crime. Why is it that warring parts in the ME act as if the crimes by one's enemies excuses one's own?

Al,
On the flag of the Irgun is Trans Jordan. My grandfather was a communist and the French invented moving pictures. Who cares?

I am an Israeli and I am telling you that we do not want a single piece of Lebanon or more than our fair share of water from Lebanon as per the international water conventions (Israel is downstream from Lebanon and certain rivers flow from Lebanon to Israel).

Stop using it as an excuse. Oh yes, Ben Gurion kissed my uncle once. I hope this doesn't matter.

e

Al,
Wishful thinking.
Why didn't you say, we are not successful but will be successful soon? It wouldn't have been a lie then.
e

Mr. AlGhaliboon, the invasion of 1982 was aimed at removing the PLO from the border and creating a buffer-zone so the katyushias that were fired at the kibbutzim and villages in the north of Israel would stop.

e, it is not wishful thinking. It is a success because we have set the wheels in motion, and in some cases, like the maps, we have gotten them. And we will very soon stop the overflights. We promise you AT LEAST that.

Tsedek the PLO left Lebanon in 1982. Israel left Lebanon in 2000. The May 17 agreement was in 1983.

Some history lessons.

Mr. e., could you please explain to me why these overflights are necessary in the first place if they don't accomplish their target which is spying after smuggling of weapons from syria to the hizb?

Al,
Wishful thinking. Israel is preparing for the next war also.
Why didn't you say, we are not successful but will be successful soon? It wouldn't have been a lie then.
e

Tsedek,
They are necessary for providing evidence to the international community that there is violation of 1701. More importantly, they are necessary in order to try identifying the bunkers and launch sites of the medium and long range missles.
e

Tsedek, it would be cheaper if Israel returns our prisoners, Sheba'a farms, KfarChouba Hills, and all minefield maps, and stops violating our airspace. But since Israel did not do any of these things, we had to force it to do it, and were quite successful at it, too. Cheaper or not, we are dedicated to our cause.

Okay, and can you name these prisoners? Other than Samir Kuntar, who are you referring to? And why is it you are willing to plunge your country into war for a monster like Kuntar? Do you know what he did? He murdered an Israeli man in front of his little daughter and then smashed her head in, killing her. A child. Cold blood. Meanwhile, this man’s wife accidentally suffocated their infant while she was hiding in the closet in mortal fear of your “freedom fighters.”

This is the man you are willing to kidnap for and kill for in order to see him free? That’s just sick.

If an Israeli or Jew did any similar type thing, I would consider him a criminal and a monster, not a hero. I would want him locked up for life.

This goes back to the old tribalism mentality: No matter how heinous an act, you and yours will always support your own. Morality is none existent.

This is who you get to share a country with, Lira. Enjoy! He’s one hell of a Lebanese nationalist, even if you don’t agree with all his actions.

Oh, and Al G: If your sister had premarital sex with a boyfriend, would you kill her?

e, who was talking about the next war? This war is enough for us to have achieved our aims. Just because you're too delusional to see it does not mean it is not there. Unless you're going to say that you destroyed our villages and Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah is in hiding whereas Olmert is not, and if you will say that I would laugh at you. Better crack some other joke.

However if you are preparing for another war, make sure you would install something more effective than Patriot missiles in Haifa and Tel Aviv, because next time we might not spare your toxic chemical facilities.

"So the policy was: whenever our civilians are targeted, we would respond in kind."

Thank you AlG. You just admitted to war crimes and the deliberate targeting of civilians. You're a disgrace.

Al,
You can promise me what you want. If they stop it won't be because of you. If you think it will take Israel more than 48 hours to reach air superiority in any Arab country you are sorely mistaken, but dream on.
I wish another war won't happen, but if it will, things will be different. That I promise you.
e

Al,
You are a joke. In Israel we say: "You do not scare a prostitute with a dick."
e

Mr. AlGhaliboon, you must have misunderstood me:
In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon because it had been subject to continuous PLO katushiya firing in the north - the direct reason was said to be the assasination attempt in the UK against the Israeli embassador Shlomo Argov by the Abu Nidal Organization.

Semite1973,

If you know that much about Mr. al-Quntar, you also ought to know that he was not one of our freedom fighters. He is actually Druze and was fighting alongside the Palestinians.

But he is Lebanese, and we demand the release of all Lebanese prisoners.

Samir al-Quntar
Yehia Skaff
Nissim Nasr (incidentally a Lebanese Jew)
Ali Faratan

to name a few.

This goes back to the old tribalism mentality: No matter how heinous an act, you and yours will always support your own. Morality is none existent.

You're wrong, the truth is much worse than that. Hezbollah is willing to mention Kuntar not despite what he did, but because of what he did.

They want to signal to their own people that Israelis are so weak that they can be killed down to the last little girl, they want to celebrate the murder of that little girl. The state of Shiite society has fallen that low.

This is a perfect example of promoting genocide as a virtue for the public.

I wonder how many Lebanese prisoners there are in every other country in the world. And when Hezbollah will start bombing those countries to release those prisoners.....

OK. Thank you Mr. e.
Rather silly though since the hizb itself is bragging publicly about their amounts of rockets etc.

Tsedek, and that explains Israel's non-interest in our waters how? At the time numerous statements were made about how the Litani should be taken over.

By the way, Arafat had issued an execution order in absentia for Abu Nidal before he committed the assassination attempt. Just to put things into perspective.

Tsedek,
What about the gathering of intelligence? Is that silly too?
e

"because next time we might not spare your toxic chemical facilities."

Heads up everyone, they might be able to aim their rockets this time. I hope Israeli's understand that this nonsense will continue until you make them pay so dearly that it is no longer worth it. Instead of moving troops in and seizing ground you might consider destroying everything in hezbollah's territory and making it uninhabitable for at least a few years.

By the way Al, why doesn't HA allow the Red Cross to visit the Israeli prisoners?
e

~~~~~Tsedek, it would be cheaper if Israel returns our prisoners, Sheba'a farms, KfarChouba Hills, and all minefield maps, and stops violating our airspace. But since Israel did not do any of these things, we had to force it to do it, and were quite successful at it, too. Cheaper or not, we are dedicated to our cause.~~~~~

I overlooked this one.
Mr. AlGhaliboon,

there were numerous occasions the hizb started firing katushiya's at either military posts but also kiriyat shmone - of which I still remember the killing of a teenager, out of the blue, by one of those katushiyas at a shopping center while there was ABSOLUTELY no provocation from israeli side.

This is inconsistent with your demands which you put forward as being the objective for not attacking israel...

I'd like to hear (read LOL) how you could explain this, please.

Mikek,
Next time, if people complain about the destruction in Lebanon, we will show them Al's threats. We have every right to prevent any possible missle launch by HA since they are threatening strategic targets in Israel. This will make our job easier.
e

Mr. AlGhaliboon,
about the water issue:

reasonably thinking now: you don't agree that water agreements (call it a kind of trade) between peaceful countries is a LOT cheaper than launching a war? (not to mention the costs of human lives even).

If there wouldn't have been attacks on Israel there would be no reason to invade Lebanon that time.

It's all very logical...

no Mr. e., for the gathering of intelligence it is NOT silly. though, please forgive me, i strongly doubt their effectiveness seen the results of the last war...

Tsedek, all actions we have taken have been in response to violations of our sovereignty. I can also tell you that our people have been shot at simply for getting a bit close to the border fence with their sheep.

As for the water issue, Israel has NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER, in peace time, to the waters of the Litani. Absolutely none.

As for the invasion, it had ulterior motives, and if the purpose was getting rid of the katyusha threats from PLO, it was a miserable failure, because it created an even bigger adversary, which you continue to struggle with, and will continue to do for a very very very long time we promise you. let us not play the chicken or the egg game, because you know just as well as i do that we even welcomed you because we wanted to get rid of the PLO and had no arms, but when you refused to withdraw, and tried to force upon us the 1983 agreement, we refused this violation of our sovereignty. that much is very clear. i am surprised you need someone to tell you about it.

Tsedek,
The IAF was successful in hitting the bunkers and launch sites of the medium and long range missiles in the beginning minutes of the war. It was estimated that about 80% of those were destroyed. HA shot mostly the short range missiles afterwards.
e

let us not play the chicken or the egg game

Translation: I've lost the arguement about who to blame, but my tribe wants more blaming and death, and damn it we'll be blaming and killing for a long time to come. You're the enemy because we decided so, and will be forever because we're hate loving barbarians.

Al,
Israel does not want ONE DROP OF THE LITANI.
It is the Hazbani that flows to Israel and to which Israel has rights. No propaganda please.
e

Al,
Perhaps you missed my question, why doesn't HA allow the Red Cross to visit the Israeli prisoners?
e

e, it is not propaganda. Read your own history and leaders' statements. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

As for the alleged destruction of our long-range rockets, you wouldn't want us to prove you wrong, would you? I recommend that you tell your representatives not to play with that kind of fire, because a Zilzal is not a Katyusha or a mortar shell.

I can't help noticing that AlGhaliboon lies when he's justifying war or violence.

I think we need to understand this from the point of view of talking to someone from a face-saving culture. They lie when they can't tell you their real reasons... So we don't know his real reasons, what we know is that war, violence and blame have been decided on, and (of course) not by him. He either doesn't know the reasons why or it's something he can't possibly admit, like religious triumphalism - simply "God wants us to fight the Jews." It may not matter to him why. He only needs to continue to display his allegiance, and he does that by being immovable in his phony arguments.

AlG,the Litani stayed there from the armistice in 49 to the Cairo agreeement in 69. Doesn't it strike you as odd that during that time, when there was no effective force to oppose them, the Israelis didn't attempt an invasion*? They only seem to attack when there is someone to shoot back, be it the Palestinians or you. Must be some bizarre jewish notion o sportsmanship...

I think you will find that most if not all commenters here think the occupation of Lebanon from 1982-2000 was a lousy idea. But it ended, and it seems HA has been desperately looking for excuses to keep violence alive ever since. Seriously, you have to dredge up something Ben Gurion said in 1919!

____________________
*Although it seems the at one point IDF band was considered as an invasion force.

Al,
Yes, you know about what Israel wants and what it is better than me. We do not want a drop from the Litani non-withstanding what Ben Gurion's barber may have said.

Your threats are amusing. Just prepare quietly for the next war. By the way, did you check the Israeli stock market lately?

What about the Israeli prisoners? Why can't the Red Cross visit them?
e

Why can't the Red Cross visit them?

Because they're in Iran?

....

Maybe all this bullshit about the Litani is because Hezbollah is so damn weak that needs a phony threat or it will lose all power.

Mr. AlGhaliboon,

please refrain from threatening language (I promise you + then ... ) - I'm a person that believes in al-Qadr and Paradise and Hell and the Day of Judgment - believe me, you can promise whatever you want, it's your conscience you'll have to account for later on.... So, let's just stick to facts, if you please :)

I don't think Israel wants one drop of water outta the Litani. The Hazbani though is another matter, but as I wrote before: there is in effect an international law that takes care of such subjects. Water may be an issue, but believe me, buying water is a lot cheaper than waging a war for it.

I am very, very, very sorry for any innocent deaths in Lebanon committed by Israel and I mean every word of this. Moreover, I know a majority of israeli's feel this way. However, I know for sure that there have been attacks on Israel by the hizb that were unprovoked. No place for discussing this, because it is simply a fact i KNOW.

In the 1983 agreement the Lebanese army was to take over positions in the south (deja vu - here) but the army was too weak (int'l community where were you??) that's why Israel created this buffer zone. You know that in that time NOT ONE katyiusha fell on Israeli soil. It did cost a lot of deaths though between the soldiers.

I remember those days when we pushed the government (the women in black, which I supported although did not belong to) to leave Lebanon and were afraid that they wouldn't because they were afraid it would be seen as a 'victory' to the hizb and exactly just that endangered the retreat... Funnily enough your existence near the border prolonged the occupation. Although, I'm sure, you will deny this by high and by low LOL.

You're not telling me facts, (as in response to your last remark), but YOUR side of the story as you see it. That's the difference.

Josh,
They need to justify the astronomical cost of the war to the other Lebanese and even many of the Shia community. That is their main problem internally. They really look stupid with only the maps in hand so they say that in the end they will have more success and that they averted a greated disaster like Israeli taking the water of the Litani.
e

Tsedek,
Maybe you can ask Al about the Red Cross visiting the Israeli prisoners. He answers you more often.
e

Mr. e., those bunkers and launch sites were destroyed as a result of RealTime observation, not because of flights taken BEFORE the whole thing started.

Josh,
They need to justify the astronomical cost of the war to the other Lebanese and even many of the Shia community. That is their main problem internally. They really look stupid with only the maps in hand so they say that in the end they will have more success and that they averted a greated disaster like Israeli taking the water of the Litani.

And Lebanese are ignorant enough to believe any old crap they make up?

Tsedek,
You are right, that some were hit in real time, but a big amount was hit in the bunkers because of intelligence. I will find the link for you.
e

Josh,
It is not working. From reading the FPM blog, they are having a hard time even convincing their allies. The Lebanese are not stupid. They are just walking on egg shells trying to prevent a civil war. They are really in a bind with no good way out. Fortunately, nobody wants violence at this stage including HA.
e

Tsedek,
"Poor intelligence is not a fatal blow. It is a matter of priorities. Israel has estimated that the biggest threat came from long-range missiles. And on the first and second days of fighting, the air force hit, with great precision, dozens of targets deep in Lebanon that hid long-term rockets.

Israel's intelligence left Hizbullah feeling stunned and exposed. Israel spent years gathering intelligence about the rocket batteries, and it paid off during that first strike. "

The full article:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280991,00.html

e

If you know that much about Mr. al-Quntar, you also ought to know that he was not one of our freedom fighters. He is actually Druze and was fighting alongside the Palestinians.
But he is Lebanese, and we demand the release of all Lebanese prisoners.
Incidentally I was aware of Kuntar’s Druze origins. But even you admit his Druzeness, if you will, has little bearing on your support of violence to free such a monster.

I am going to update my peace plan:

step one: destroy everything in Jerusalem
step two: use the rubble along with other material and build an addition onto the Gaza strip into the sea. It would work well for Israel, "You wanted Jerusalem, you got it", and would be an improvement over the current mess the palestinians live in if they made an effort to improve their lives.

Mikek,
Your plan has been put in motion. The Lebanese are dumping the rubble in Beirut into the sea and claiming land.
e

Thank Mr. e.,
(article)
We would have to ask Mr. AlGhaliboon then if this is accurate:

~~~~~And on the first and second days of fighting, the air force hit, with great precision, dozens of targets deep in Lebanon that hid long-term rockets.~~~~~

and wonder if he'll respond with an honest answer...

Tsedek, and how would you evaluate the honesty of my answer? Based on the comparison with the article? That means you would be taking the article as the acceptable base. So what is the point of asking?
Anyway the answer is that, it is untrue. None of our weapons stockpiles were hit, not even the short and middle range ones, and definitely not the long-range ones. Wake up and smell the coffee, when we claimed we had hit your ship the idf denied it until we produced the video, and only then did they accept it. we also hit 2 other of your navy boats, and a number of drones, and helicopters. But you will continue to believe the foolish story that the helicopter crashed because it hit power lines. if you guys say it often enough you will believe it permanently, and that only benefits us, because if you believe it, you will work on those grounds. Keep believing.

By the way I was not threatening, I was stating facts, that if your country continues to act in the manner it acted in the summer it is almost a certainty that you guys will be getting a fair share of zilzals and a number of sunk ship and downed F-16s and drones.

semite1973 @ 13 Nov 4.36 pm, it is an honor to share a country with a brave person like AlGhaliboon, when the Israeli War Machine was pounding our country, a handfull of Southern warriors were able to thwart off the gigantic machine thrown at them.

I raise my hat to them for that, not Hezbollah per se but to them those men who fought to death with utmost courage so that after 34 days of heavy fighting, this is what the actual situation was on the ground:

http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/freeproducts/lebanon/UNOSAT_border_map_v2%202_lowres.jpg

As for our ideological differences with AlGhaliboon, we've already went at length in many debates on other forums but that doesn't mean we should not respect each others when respect is due.

Thank you anyways

By the way, Tsedek, I am telling you history, but for you history only exists when it supports your world view.

Israel withdrew to its self-styled "security zone" in 1985.

Another fact that must've gone over your head.

Let me know if you want more facts.

Anyway the answer is that, it is untrue. None of our weapons stockpiles were hit, not even the short and middle range ones, and definitely not the long-range ones.

Is Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf is a distant relative of yours?

Mr. AlGhaliboon,
my 'honest' referred to your previous comment in which you gave me to understand that you, as an active hizb member, could not give out certain information of which you had knowledge. that's all.

threat or no threat Mr. AlGhaliboon - you are having a discussion with me now and "we promiss you" - I take as such.

as a matter of fact I was quite surprised myself our army/intelligence seemed to have underestimated the hizb's weaponary as I as a private person having no military knowledge whatsoever had that figured out by myself even...

Rosignol, you are free not to believe, no one is forcing it on you. If you have a pre-determind set of beliefs on this issue, you ought not even be reading this. Or maybe you are desperate for a way to attack us, granted that we soundly defeated Israel and made it beg for a ceasefire, and continued to fire Katyushas, and short and middle range rockets to the last minute. Our non-usage of the long-range rockets disproves the israeli argument that we had been pushed away from the border. Or maybe you are saying that we had been pushed away from the border so we were firing long-range rockets, which would mean that we do have a significant number of them. Either way, your desire to compare us to Iraq stems from the inferiority complex you developed when you faced the shock that israel was defeated, militarily AND diplomatically, and our position became MUCH stronger than it was before the July war, all this because of the collective hysteria that the Israeli leaders embarked on. And as for your dreams of turning Lebanon into another Iraq, I say, DREAM ON. Your and israel's and Saudi Arabia's dreams will never come true.

~~~~~made it beg for a ceasefire,~~~~~

that is so NOT true LOL :)
israel did everything in its power to postpone anything that could lead to a ceasefire - such as UN resolutions etc.

~~~By the way, Tsedek, I am telling you history, but for you history only exists when it supports your world view.~~~

please don't play on the person, Mr. AlGhaliboon.

I am reminiscing upon the Tom Lehr song "National Brotherhood Week" as I write this.

"The Protestant hate the Catholics, the Catholics hate the Protestants, the Hindus hate the Muslims and Everbody hates the Jews!"

[Feel free to substitute "Palestinians" or "Lebanese" for "Jews" as time seems to indicate that these people are given "the finger" by the "civilized world."]

Apparently, Hizbollah, unwilling to "play ball" in a democratically elected government, has decided to take its Marbles and go home. (Which I commented on in the other thread, to which AlGhali seemed to indicate that Hizbollah had no intention of doing)

Once again, I ask, what is the difference between Hizbollah and (dare I say?) the Nazis in this context? They both seek power and refuse to play ball (instead using terror to control the masses and the government into giving them concessions), pointing towards a mythical past, and creating a mythical enemy to fight.

This is the very definition of the Modern Western concept of Fascism. The similarities between the nations and situations are staggering. Up to the humiliating defeat at the hands of foreign powers! (Syria and Israel)

N.B. Germany, like Lebanon, was not a barbaric nation dominated by a single group. Germany had historically been a center of study, music, and art. Lebanon is a fragile flower of democracy in a briar-patch of depotism. The thing that spurred Germany into depotism is (Shocking!) attempts to redress imagined or real past wrongs through violent means and to drum up support by demonizing nations or recognized ethnic groups.

Hizbollah seems to crib their game plan from the Beer Hall Putsch.

I like to ask: Do we have any doubt what Hizbollah wants now? Or what will happen if they are given the honor/respect/power that they so crave?

AlGhali, I apologize for the change in tone, but the parallels to the emerging Nazi-Germany were too much for me (Up to the elimination of foreign domination of the political process, in Germany's case France and England).

Rosignol, you are free not to believe, no one is forcing it on you. If you have a pre-determind set of beliefs on this issue, you ought not even be reading this.

It seems exceedingly unlikely that the Israelis did not hit a single stockpile. Claiming that they did not do substantial damage is one thing, but you claim they did not do any damage, which is laughable.

Or maybe you are desperate for a way to attack us, granted that we soundly defeated Israel and made it beg for a ceasefire,

What color is the sky on your world?

The only party begging for a ceasefire in the last round of fighting was Lebanon.

and continued to fire Katyushas, and short and middle range rockets to the last minute. Our non-usage of the long-range rockets disproves the israeli argument that we had been pushed away from the border.

It's also possible that you just don't have any long-range rockets to launch.

Or maybe you are saying that we had been pushed away from the border so we were firing long-range rockets, which would mean that we do have a significant number of them.

That cannot be determined unless Israeli forces push hezbullah back a greater distance than a Katyusha's range. The reports I've heard is that the Israeli ground forces were doing search-and-destroy missions, not take-and-hold, so this is unprovable one way or another.

Either way, your desire to compare us to Iraq stems from the inferiority complex you developed when you faced the shock that israel was defeated,

It must be nice to be telepathic.

militarily AND diplomatically, and our position became MUCH stronger than it was before the July war,

Ah, the al-Sahhaf blood comes to the fore again.

How did you benefit from starting a war you weren't prepared for, that did significant damage to Lebanon's infrastructure and economy, that nobody else in Lebanon wanted to fight, that demonstrated the ineffectiveness of your Katyusha arsenal, and resulted in multiple Islamic governments condemning an muslim force that was fighting against Jews?

I suppose you could argue that the hizbullis who died in the fighting benefitted- they're in paradise with their 72 houris now- but how did those of you who are still here benefit?

is because of the collective hysteria that the Israeli leaders embarked on.

No, that was indecisiveness, not hysteria. Not a desirable quality in a leader, but they'll be replaced as soon as an election can be arranged.

And as for your dreams of turning Lebanon into another Iraq, I say, DREAM ON. Your and israel's and Saudi Arabia's dreams will never come true.

Ha! All I wish for lebanon is that the people living there are happy and peaceful and don't try to kill their neighbors. Unfortunately, the main reason this wish does not seem likely to come true is because Hizbullah's puppetmasters in Damascus and Tehran do not want it to come true.

I don't know what the Israelis want for Lebanon, although I suspect that a peace treaty and possibly not trying to kill them is on the list.

I really don't know what the Saudis want for Lebanon. Probably a place they can go to drink, gamble, and whore without worrying about the muttawa.

Turning Lebanon into another Iraq is not on anyone's to-do list. Syria, maybe, Iran, probably.... but not Lebanon.

Mr. AlGhaliboon?

Apparently being compared to Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf was more offensive than I had thought it would be.

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