I guess we can now add the depleted uranium myth to the list of all the other bogus accusations lobbed at Israel (flat fatima, green helmet man, the fake bombing of the red cross ambulance...). All those staged photos and lies did Israel's opponents more harm than good. It seems that now whenever a photograph or story comes out that makes Israel look bad there are hordes of bloggers going over every fact/pixel looking for evidence that the claim/photo isn't true. Although I'm not sure what affect English-language blogs have in the Middle East. The Arab street seems to really love conspiracy theories, especially ones that make Jews/Israel look bad.

They should have been more clear than simply saying "The Independent."

It was Robert Fisk who reported on the depleted uranium.

He quoted British doctors affiliated with an NGO. I hope they lose their funding. Such reports are no joking manner, and the level of fear in Lebanon rose dramatically.

We inhaled a lot of dust throughout the conflict, much of it making our eyes, nose, and mouth tingle, as gun powder soaked air does.

If I were in Lebanon at the time the last thing that would have made me nervous is yet another hysterical bullshit claim by Robert Fisk. Taking him seriously is bad for a person's mental health.

Agree that it is insufficient to identify source as The Independent; one must single out that it's Fisk. He's a notch lower than some of the other reporters at that paper.

Oh, and one kind word for Fisk: sometimes he's the only chap there in the thick of things.

Yes Michael, the UN did report that this was not true. However, why don't you mention what the UN did find in Lebanon?

Try this for flavor:

Phosphorus Shells

But then again, why am i not surprised that you did not mention this?

Cheers,
L.

Because, Lazarus, there is no controversy over whether or not Israel used phosphorous, as Israel admits to using it.

Taking [Fisk] seriously is bad for a person's mental health.

The sooner more people figure this out, the better.

My god, is phosphorous toxic? This isn't the same WP used in fireworks and 10th grade science labs is it? We are all going to die.

Yes Michael, they did ... two months after the fact. That doesn't mean you shouldn't mention it ... "for the record," that is.

Cheers,
L.

Well, Lazarus, Israel also used bullets, artillery shells, surface-to-surface missiles and a number of other weapons that you and I would rather not be hit with. Using phosphorus isn't a war crime. If it were, I would beat them up over it in print. Or, in this case, in pixels.

I didn't think anyone was particularly worried about this, so it didn't occur to me to draw attention to it. Anyway, you didn't mention it on your blog either. I know because I checked your "search box." So can I safely assume you also don't think this is a terribly important detail?

There are far bigger complaints to be lodged against Israel than this. (The entire air campaign, for example.)

I am glad you feel that there are larger complaints. But for the sake of completeness, phosphorus bombs used against civilians are banned by Geneva treaty; although this puts us in a catch-22 situation, as it can not be proved that Israel did actually use them against civilians.

And just FYI, it was mentioned in my blog, although I didn't use the term "phosphorus" ... I had translated an article from arabic back in July on this, and at the time, the words "chemical" was used.

Cheers,
L.

...But for the sake of completeness, phosphorus bombs used against civilians are banned by Geneva treaty;...

Which is a distortion. Targeting civilians is what is banned, the specific weapons used to do so are irrelevant.

White Phosphorous is generally used in flares used to illuminate targets (it's an easy way for troops on the ground to tell the guys flying the airplanes "drop the bombs here"), as well as in the decoy flares aircraft use to distract heat-seeking missiles. Just about every military on the planet has this equipment, uses it regularly, and has done so for decades.

But for some reason, when the Israelis use these things, they get accused of war crimes.

Yes, Rosignol is right. The intentional targetting of civilians is a war crime whether it is committed with nuclear bombs, white phosporous, suicide bomb belts, conventional bullets, Katyusha rockets, highjacked airplanes, or a baseball bat. The weapon used makes no difference.

Unfortunately, I fail to see where I directly accused Israel of war crimes in this comment section ...

However, using incendiary weapons (of which phosphor bombs are part of, and baseball bats, conventional bullets, etc. are not) against civilians was banned by the convention on certain conventional weapons. My error was to say it was part of the Geneva conventions; that ban is actually part of the United Nations convention (protocol III).

Unfortunately, I fail to see where I directly accused Israel of war crimes in this comment section ...

Ha ha! Then what, exactly, is the purpose of your comment?

However, using incendiary weapons (of which phosphor bombs are part of, and baseball bats, conventional bullets, etc. are not) against civilians was banned by the convention on certain conventional weapons. My error was to say it was part of the Geneva conventions; that ban is actually part of the United Nations convention (protocol III).

Just sayin'! Nothing to with Israel!

The probable purpose of Lazarus' comments is to keep everyone talking about the imagined crimes of Israelis rather than the real crimes of his countrymen - or possibly even himself.

Note this kind of dishonesty is effective. When was the last time anyone on this board mentioned Hezbollah's unprovoked attacks on Israel?

"although this puts us in a catch-22 situation, as it can not be proved that Israel did actually use them against civilians"

Seeing as how their enemies' central strategy is to dress like civilians so the Israelis can't tell who's who, yes indeed it would be hard to prove.

Seems this one's already disproved... at least according to INN.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=114786

I am quite surprised at this post. When you say “If I believed half of what that man writes about Israel and America, I'd hate us too,” you are implying that it is because of what journalists write, people in the Middle East hate Americans. I rather think it is because of American policies in this part of the world that everyone hates the Americans. You as a journalist discredit yourself by making a statement like this.
Another even poorer statement that is coming from a journalist like you is ‘Taking [Fisk] seriously is bad for a person's mental health.’ You’re not playing in the same league as Fisk. Fisk is not infallible - no journalist is - but with his track record, I think you should be a little more careful when accusing him of being 'hysterical'. I know of no journalist that is better informed and double checks his facts than Fisk. I do believe he is emotional at times, but your commentary is pompous and pretentious

"I know of no journalist that is better informed and double checks his facts than Fisk."

Whaaaaaaaat??!! Have you ever fact checked Fisk? The same guy who during the recent war, said in the same paragraph the Israeli's were too arrogant to put an antimissle platform on their warship, but they were willing to put a "vulcan cannon" on board, ignoring the easily checkable fact that the "vulcan cannon" is the antimissle defense (Google "CWIS"; takes 1 second to check). The same guy who wrote as proof that an Israeli aircraft was shot down: " One had a figure 225 written on it. It wasn’t in Arabic numerals, it was in Roman numerals." (Anyone ever seen an aircraft with "CCXXV" painted on the sides?) The same guy who tried to claim that the Hezbollah missles didn't exist? The one's they ended up firing at Israel just recently?

When you say "I know of no journalist that is better informed and double checks his facts than Fisk", you accuse Fisk of accuracy. And that is simply not the case with him. Think what you will of the man, but please, don't ever accuse him of factual accuracy; the evidence shows otherwise.

I know of no journalist that is better informed and double checks his facts than Fisk.

Then apparently you don't read the work of too many journalists.

Fisk has become an internet verb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

"To fisk" an article is to address or correct distortions, lies and misleading statements in a story. Robert Fisk is a propaganist, not a journalist. I trust the reporting of MJT infinitely than Robert Fisk, though Fisk no doubt enjoys popularity among his fellow Israel haters and Islamic "militant" apologists in the Middle East.

So where did these people actually get samples from?

Ironic that they don't mention where they took their samples from. Why do I have the impression that they did not get them from Al Khiam?

Mr. Totten,

Regarding your cheap shots at Mr. Fisk, I presume your hero is Mr. Friedman? In which case may I encourage you to actually go beyond the Orientalist perspective, to gain at least an ounce of credibility amongst your wider (non-Orientalist/non-fascist) readership?

Regards,
A Hizbullahi from the South.

It takes a lot of nerve for a Hizbullahi to call me a fascist.

Get a life, buddy. Or do you enjoy getting bombed halfway to the moon by the Israelis?

Yes, I prefer Tom Friedman to Robert Fisk. He's not a fascist, he's a liberal. Unlike yourself.

Anyone know anything about the tons of cluster bombs that Israel reportedly dropped even as they were negotiating to cease hostilities? As far as I know, these reports haven't been refuted. Are children's limbs still being blown off? War crime, anyone?

I think Hollowpoint did not quite understand the definition of 'fisking' in Wikipedia correctly. It says 'he term Fisking, or to Fisk, is blogosphere slang describing ruthlessly detailed point-by-point criticism that highlights errors, disputes the analysis of presented facts, or highlights other problems in a statement, article, or essay.' So what are you accusing him of? To lie or distort facts? I do not see the link between the articleat all. Explain please.

John,

Using cluster bombs isn't a war crime, but it probably should be. And yes, Israel used them.

The US uses them, too.

Sietske,

Robert Fisk gets "fisked" more than anyone else. So his name became the verb. People who have never even heard of Robert Fisk know what "fisking" is. The verb is now more famous than the noun.

Mr. Totten,

Unlike you, I have not painted anyone with blanket statements.

I would say that it is a bit childish of you to make such statements about being bombed to the moon by the Israelis, given that the primary victims of the Israelis have not been the Hizbullah fighters, but rather the babies, women, the elderly, and in general civilians. It is a shame that your so-called liberal hatred has blinded you to the facts, that while we have fought with honour on the battlefield (and the ratio of Israeli civilians to soldiers killed is testimony to that), the Israelis have attempted to take out their anger at their inability by bombing our people, our bridges, our homes, basically everything BUT us. However, if you choose to present the 500 dead figure that Israel claims it achieved (notice how Israel phrases its achievements - in terms of kills and amount of territory occupied; which indicates what they really are after), at least give us some proof of this; I remember during the war they were constantly repeating this figure, and the other 50% figure of rocket launchers destroyed. Tell me, Mr. Totten, since you insist the Israelis bombed us halfway to the moon, what did this bombing-to-the-moon campaign achieve? What achievements can one speak of, at least without sounding as laughable as a clown (or Tzipi Livni apologizing for the Beit Hanun massacre and claiming it was unintentional - I wonder, how many mistakes can one make in the span of uhh, let's say 2 months?) would sound. But since your liberal self chooses to brag about the bombing-halfway-to-the-moon, I presume you are also bragging about the similar bombing to the moon of the 4 UN officers? Or is human life valuable depending on where they hail from, and what colour their skin is, or which God they pray to?

Regards,

He should be forced to give this back.

Er, what IS an Orientalist? I thought it was a classification of scholars, but where does an Hezbollah fan get the 'facist' part?

Yo, Mr. Hezbollah. You don't know who you're arguing with, so I suggest if you want to have that fight you go somewhere else.

How dare you complain about the Israelis bombing civilians? I get to complain about that. You don't. You bombed Haifa and bragged about it. You are an apologist, and perhaps even a perpetrator, of war crimes.

Mr. Totten,

I am really amazed at your usage of fallacies to divert from the point I raised;

Regardless of who I am and how hypocritical I might be, your response still constitutes a fallacious diversion.

As for accusing me of bombing Haifa - that got you a bit distressed, didn't it? - that's a bit of an assumption, isn't it?

An apologist - how am I justifying anything? I did not even raise that point. If you choose to forge your arguments based entirely on fallacies of attack on the person, that's an entirely different matter. However, again, it shows more about your standards, than mine.

I am here to discuss respectfully; if you cannot place your biases behind you for a moment, then that says quite a lot about your tolerance and alleged liberal values.

Respectfully,

AlGhaliboon,

Maybe if your fighters didn't hide among your civillians, the Israelis wouldn't have killed so many of them.

But you can't make the same claim about Israel. Tell me, which Israeli units were you targeting when your side targeted Haifa? And Safed? And Nurit?

Al Ghaliboon, if you're here to discuss this respectfully then you can start by not throwing "Orientalist" and "Fascist" around. That is not a way to get on my good side.

Also, if you are looking to argue with someone who thinks Israel did a good job in Lebanon, you're on the wrong blog.

Gents, let this be an occasion to exchange thoughts - please take it easy on the discourse, there hasn't been disrespect but the language is quite agressive, kindly tone it down for us to follow an interesting discussion.

Regards

Mr. Hummus,

I am afraid that it is not your lack of knowledge of the functional and organizational and tactical aspects of the Resistance that shapes the reality of the situation, namely it is not the scale by which to determine whether or not we hide amongst civilians. However, in as far as our strategies and tactics are based on secrecy and avoidance of the possibility of collaborators tipping us off, we function away from population centers, in very small groups who wear military fatigues. However, I have said more than enough; I would say that if the other side is unwilling to take advice and learn from what we are trying to show it, to its benefit on the battlefield, then what more can we do? However, since you insist that we were indeed hiding amongst civilians, then wouldn't the bombings have achieved at least as many, or at least half as many (to be generous) Hizbullah fighters? What explains, then, the intentional targeting of civilian convoys, ambulances, and so on? Or were these carrying rockets, too? Ironic, all of Lebanon saw photos of those trucks and civilian convoys targeted; they were aid trucks carrying medicines/flour, they were civilian cars carrying civilians who were fleeing after receiving the "warning" leaflets (notwithstanding that the roads were bombed, too, which made it practically impossible for the civilians to flee). I notice you conveniently left those out, and stuck immediately to the allegation - as yet unsubstantiated - that we hide amongst civilians.

Alright Mr. Hezbollah, if your part of the Resistance (and not an garrison to Iran) why the hell did it attack Israel in the first place? It doesn't occupy any of your land, and if your after prisoners, I've heard Syria has many of them (who are probably worth more the child-killer Samir).

Mr. Totten,

Let me be incredibly honest; I have read your blog for some time, but have refrained from commenting. I can say that I find your views abhorrable, in so far as they (more often than not) justify murder based on Israel's right to self-defense. Mr. Totten, if Israel wanted to defend itself, if Israel believed we were on an equal footing as human beings, if Israel believed in human rights, if Israel believed in the real rules of war, let it fight on the battlefield, let it invade and snatch our rocket launchers from us. To hide behind F-16s and then make unsubstantiated accusations that we hide amongst civilians to justify the kill-of-the-day, is not my idea of fighting like real men. Thus, I consider your views as justifying Israel's attitudes, which do not abode well for human rights (disregard the fact that I might be a hypocrite; this does not make the argument invalid). Moreover, you imply that Israel did not do a good job in Lebanon. What do you mean by that, and would you have said the same if Israel had gone in and practically eliminated us (and killed just as many civilians, let us not say more, to make the comparison on an equal footing)? Kindly elaborate.

The Hezbolli believes he is entitled to his own facts.

Mr. Curious,

First of all, Israel does occupy our land. If Israel wanted to give us no excuse to keep our arms, why does it not give us the patch of land that we are demanding?

Second, Israel holds our prisoners, and these prisoners were supposed to be exchanged as per an understanding in the 1st negotiations after the 2000 capture of the 3 soldiers & Tannenbaum, at a later stage, and the Israelis backtracked on this understanding. Hence, we took matters into our own hands, and rightly so.

Third, it is not just the issue of land or prisoners, but the maps of minefields that Israel refused to hand to the UN.

Fourth, we did not attack Israel. Our targeting (given that we merely have a ceasefire between us) of the soldiers was legitimate; what was not legitimate, however, was the open war declared by Israel, whereupon our civilians were massacred, our infrastructure attacked, etc. This is in fact where we started to fire our rockets into civilian areas, and these areas were full of military and strategic sites. For example, Zar'it and Avivim were strictly military zones, as were large areas surrounding Kiryat Shemona, Kfar Gil'adi, etc.

Solomon2 care to advance a constructive comment?

Our targeting (given that we merely have a ceasefire between us) of the soldiers was legitimate

May I remind you that Lebanon is officially at war with Israel? By your logic anything that Israel might do is legitimate.

By your logic anything that Israel might do is legitimate

Technically, that statement is incorrect. As per the April 1996 agreement, there were set guidelines on what was or wasn't acceptable. And up until July 2006, those guidelines were followed to a certain extent. Unfortunately, other dynamics over the past year convinced Israel that agreements were meant to be broken ...

As for Haifa, Mr. Hummus, let me enlighten you, Haifa is an industrial center, indeed Israel's biggest industrial and weapons technology center, containing many strategic sites. Moreover, in as far as you justify the bombing of the infrastructure to prevent the movement of Hezbullah fighters and the resupply of their rockets, the same argument would go for us, and yes, in case you were not aware of this, we did hit a significant number of weapons storage and transit facilities. Also note that the two very sensitive tactical and strategic sites, Yodefat and Eilabun, are located south of Carma'il and west of Tiberias respectively.

But let me ask you what was the strategic importance of bombing the bridge near the casino (and a few other bridges), in Christian Mount Lebanon?

May I remind you that Lebanon is officially at war with Israel? By your logic anything that Israel might do is legitimate.
Untrue. Anything that Israel may do against military targets (and infrastructure proven to be of military use) would be legitimate, but that's about it (in plain English: NOTHING MORE than that). Afraid you cannot justify mass-murder on these grounds, though I am sure Israel does not need to provide any justification/explanation.

why does it not give us the patch of land that we are demanding?

Because the U.N. says it isn't yours.

these prisoners were supposed to be exchanged as per an understanding

It was Hezbollah who violated the "understandings" by not even providing information about the state of health of Israeli prisoners. In the most recent conflict, the cessation-of-hostilities agreement called for the unconditional release of Israeli "abductees" - another treaty promise that Hezbollah decided to violate.

it is not just the issue of land or prisoners, but the maps of minefields

Not a major obstacle, I think.

Fourth, we did not attack Israel. Our targeting (given that we merely have a ceasefire between us) of the soldiers was legitimate -

Exactly backwards.

There's no moral or legal argument left for you, Hezbolli. Why should anyone listen to you? Do they not endanger their very souls by following you? And are you not lost yourself, until you seek redemption by submission?

Al Ghaliboon, if you have been reading my blog for a long time then you know that I think Israel's invasion of Lebanon was stupid. More stupid, though, is Hezbollah's war against Israel and Hezbollah's claim of "victory."

If you are tired of war with Israel (maybe you aren't, maybe you like war, but I know some moderate Hezbollah supporters who are tired of the whole thing) you need to realize that it is possible for you to resolve the outstanding issues without getting thousands more Lebanese (and Israeli) people killed.

I know you don't believe me, and I won't be able to convince you, but let me give you some honest advice: Read Ha'arertz every day for a year. It's an Israeli newspaper with an English edition. You won't like everything you read there (obviously), but at the end of the year you will know and understand your enemy far better than you do now.

Here's some more advice. If Hezbollah wants to be respected by Americans, stop saying Death to America. When you declare yourselves our enemies, we will treat you accordingly. Americans have short attention spans and do not hold grudges. We can change the terms of the relationship any time you're ready.

Final advice, Al Ghaliboon. If you don't like getting bombed by Israelis, stop shooting and kidnapping Israelis. They will bomb you again if you keep that up.

Do you ever wonder what it would be like to live in a normal country that doesn't explode?

Here's some more advice. If Hezbollah wants to be respected by Americans, stop saying Death to America. When you declare yourselves our enemies, we will treat you accordingly. Americans have short attention spans and do not hold grudges. We can change the terms of the relationship any time you're ready.

You can substitute "Israelis" for "Americans" in that passage, and it will still be true.

Mr. Totten,

You and I both know that what Israel did was more than just invasion; in fact, it was not the invasion itself that we have an issue with (we welcome anyone who wishes to fight us face to face on the battlefield), but the aerial attacks that Israel was waging, which did not harm us at all, but killed a significant number of our civilians - reminding you, our families (yes we do have loved ones too, Mr. Totten, so I say as a friendly comment, please think twice before you paint us as monsters and brag about bombing our families to the moon).

What we did was merely what we had promised to do; we had warned of it time and time again, because the understanding that we had arrived to in the previous negotiation was not respected, and our prisoners remained in Israeli jails, and our people continued to be maimed and killed by mines.

Mr. Totten, you underestimate our intelligence. We read Ha'aretz, and we read much more than Ha'aretz, and much more than the English versions of the Israeli press. We read much, much more than that, I can assure you.

Our enmity towards America stems from our hatred of its policies, which have left our people everywhere, in Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and elsewhere among ruins. We hold no grudges towards the average American citizen, but towards the general American policy, which treats us as unimportant, as merely puppets and machines to be manipulated for their interests. We reject and fight any attempt to subjugate us and take our dignity and honour away. You will find that we are not much different in that respect from nations that take pride in their history and civilization, and aspire to practice and maintain their sovereignty. We want and demand treatment on equal terms, not as inferiors. That is the root of our struggle against America.

Hezbollah showed up in the comments. O joy.

Well, just from a quick glance at the comment thread above, I'd say that the discussion has been civil and informative. So far.

Do you ever wonder what it would be like to live in a normal country that doesn't explode?
I have lived in many countries - countries that would fall under the categorization of "the west" and "the first world", countries that don't explode. Countries that don't explode because they export their explosions to my country and bring death and destruction to my people.

However, in my dealings with these people - Americans, and yes, even Israelis - I have felt the arrogance and their feelings of superiority, and their condescending attitudes towards my peoplel - Arabs and Muslims. I chose to leave exactly because I found it unbearable to live in a country that looks down upon us in this manner, although again I tell you, I have nothing against the average American or westerner. You will find that many, many of us, have lived and experienced the west in 1st person, not through the accounts of others. And we have chosen this path exactly because of it. We have come to be convinced that our people's dignity must be raised from the ground, our culture, traditions, religious beliefs revived, if we are to have a chance of demanding our rights as human beings. We stand for justice. Our past notwithstanding, we have shown that we are willing to take a logical path based on free will rather than imposing anything on others, including our fellow Lebanese.

We reject and fight any attempt to subjugate us and take our dignity and honour away. You will find that we are not much different in that respect from nations that take pride in their history and civilization, and aspire to practice and maintain their sovereignty. We want and demand treatment on equal terms, not as inferiors.

I think this is an important point that is often ignored in discussions about the politics of the Middle East, and is probably one of the primary forces behind the origins of the Zionist movement in the first place - ethnic sovereignty, pride, and honour to a people historically deprived of it.

We are not much different in that respect from nations that take pride...We want and demand treatment on equal terms, not as inferiors. That is the root of our struggle against America.

There it is. He's grown up in a tough neighborhood where the big and strong always bully the weaker into obedience. In such an environment big bullies are defeated when others bullies gang up on them, and there's no better way to inspire bullies to band together than to propose taking down the biggest "bullies" in the neighborhood - Israel and the United States.

The idea that there could be someone big and strong out there who isn't primarily interested in fighting is quite a foreign concept, something to be rejected outright even if understood, for he would still feel small and weak. He's projecting his values upon law-abiding free nations and using that to justify his attacks.

For the Hezbolli, this isn't about security or religion. It's about pride and power. In the West he'd be in jail, intensive therapy, or a CEO. Such structure is not available to him, or simply is not desired because it is so at odds with his indoctrination.

(time's up, gotta go)

For the Hezbolli, this isn't about security or religion. It's about pride and power. In the West he'd be in jail, intensive therapy, or a CEO.

Because being a CEO is insane or criminal?

There is nothing wrong with desiring pride, and many of us who already enjoy the privilege of power and pride take it for granted. Labeling others that seek the same as criminal or insane is, well, uncharitable to say the least.

"The heart of tyranny is those who are seen as inferior seeking notoriety."

AlGhaliboon, your arguments are clear, articulate and very well presented. You are obviously well educated and familiar with the United States and Israel. Furthermore, your arguments look to be of your own invention, and not the repeating of a "party line" which is evidence that you are a convinced believer, and not merely a dogmatic.

(I once had a conversation with a native of Hong Kong, we went back and forth with her broken English until I asked about how HK was now that China had taken control. She switched to perfect english and began to speak with American aphorisms and idioms as she spoke about how great HK was now that the Chinese government had regained control. It was the most chilling example of propoganda and indoctrination I had ever encountered.)

However, fair speech can mask a foul heart.

I ask you why should you be respected, and treated as equals? You admit to targetting, with admittedly very inaccurate weapons, civilian centers. You claim this is necessary. You also demonize Israel for targetting civilian centers wherein you have always drawn support and power.

I ask you why should the international community submit to kidnapping and blackmail? You demonize the United States for doing it, as well as Israel, yet you do it yourselves. You then claim your own is legitimate, yet theirs is not.

I ask you why should we hold you as anything more than a "me as well!" faction of a defunct culture? Your methods, rhetoric, and approach seem to be simply adopting the patterns and philosophies of your oppressors, instead of overturning and changing them. You seem less "freedom fighters" than a power-hungry faction.

I ask of you, if you are resisting, what are you resisting? It seems to me, behind your pretty rhetoric, that you are only resisting the fact that you are not in charge to manipulate, kill, and control as you see fit. What paradise of freedom do you wish to create if you win?

The United States took an English hegemony and turned it into a democracy. You seek to take a democracy and turn it into a hegemony.

I see no reason why we should give you any of the respect you seem to crave.

However, in my dealings with these people - Americans, and yes, even Israelis - I have felt the arrogance and their feelings of superiority, and their condescending attitudes towards my people - Arabs and Muslims.

Well, if you guys had even one country that's a nice place to live, we might want to emulate you.

But, it's good to know that you don't feel arrogant or superior!

Well said, Berkeley Non-conformist! (I didn't see your comment until I posted mine.)

The Psalmist says "Lord, be the judge between the accuser, oppressor and I." Modern Man says "Lord, make me the accuser and oppressor."

I think we should all know which the most meritorious position.

Because the U.N. says it isn't yours.
The UN also says many things, it says that Israel should not violate Lebanese airspace. Does Israeli violation justify our retaliation against Israel in any shape or form? If not, why not? Because it's Israel after all?

What the UN says on who that land belongs to, is irrelevant. The UN in fact has proven to be unreliable when it comes to border issues, as seen in the drawing of the blue line, and how they gave part of our land to Israel (at Misgav 'Am) to avoid giving Barak domestic headaches.

It was Hezbollah who violated the "understandings" by not even providing information about the state of health of Israeli prisoners.
The understanding I am referring to was not actually part of the process of negotiations itself, but merely appended to it; namely, that following the exchange, there would be a 2nd round in the near future, which would settle once and for all, all the outstanding issues of exchange (prisoners, maps, etc.) between Israel and Lebanon.

Why should anyone listen to you? Do they not endanger their very souls by following you? And are you not lost yourself, until you seek redemption by submission?
They listen because they believe wholeheartedly in the justice of our arguments and cause. They listen because we are one and the same: Hizbullah is the people, and the people are Hizbullah. We are from the people and for the people. Our history attests to this. We have given Lebanon more martyrs and restored its dignity more than any other party. We have restored the lost pride of the Arab and Muslim peoples. We do not need anyone to listen to us. We believe, and we act. The rest are incidental byproducts, rather than deliberately sought after. We are not lost; we have shown those who were lost, the way. And we have proven time and again that we stand by our word. Our honesty and faith are our keys to success in our struggle for liberation and against injustice.

DPU, very quickly:

No, pride had little to do with Zionism. The desire to (1) be secure and (2) practice Judaism did. Originally Zionists wanted not their own state, but a subsidiary one; they were aware of "the folly of power", as Einstein put it. Only bloody events starting in the nineteen-twenties convinced Zionist leaders that independence was necessary.

The CEO comment is there to point out that there are people in the West with the similar motivations, yet there are constructive outlets available to suit such ambitions. Am I the only one who notices that when terrorists seek recruits in a particular neighborhood, they often try to destroy large productive businesses that provide employers and employees with pride, hope, and financial and physical security? That's what happened to the factories in Sadr City, and the greenhouses in Gaza.

We want and demand treatment on equal terms, not as inferiors.

You'll get it, at least from me, when you no longer start wars and kill people because you have emotional problems.

My West Beirut landlord lost tens of thousands of dollars in his restaurant business because of that war you and Nasrallah started. Are you going to tell him that this is the price he must pay for your pride? What about his pride? What about his need to take care of his children and provide for them? Doesn't he count, too? He's not a Zionist or an imperialist. He's a middle class Lebanese guy who owns a restaurant and wants to live in a country that doesn't explode.

Look. I've spent a lot of time in Lebanon. I love that country as much as anyone who is from somewhere else and spent only seven months there possibly could. If you want my respect, that's easy. Join the Lebanese project. Choose to build instead of destroy. Don't start wars that get little girls in two countries -- one of which is your own -- killed.

The reason pretty much nobody in this discussion thread respects you is because you choose war over friendship and peaceful coexistence. We can change the terms of our relationship whenever you're ready, but it is you who must change. Americans are not going to side with or respect people who scream Death to America and fire missiles at cities because they lack pride.

alghali, why do I see so many pictures of you chumps wearing baseball hats and saluting like nazi's? Why can't you guys come up with your own stuff, you are a parasite.

"Our enmity towards America stems from our hatred of its policies"

I hate you and your crappy death cult, who gives a fuck what you think about anything. Good job ruining lebanon for all the reasonable decent people who try to live there.

"...We reject and fight any attempt to subjugate us and take our dignity and honour away..."

Do you understand how that philosophy will necessitate a perpetual state of hostility with your fellow humans forever or until you personally command the entire universe? For in essence, the term "us" has to be defined by you first. Is it Shias in Hisbollah only? Shias only? Shia Hisbollahs that follow only Nasrallah? See where this goes? What happens when the Sunnis who support you against the infidels when it's needed eventually return to their contempt for your version of Islam as in the turmoil in Iraq? Not even considering problems at the clan level, family level. When it's all about pride, honour, and dignity it is a neverending competition not cooperation. That's where democratic countries have the advantage. Instead of fighting each other, we compete and cooperate at the same time. We haven't perfected the system, but it's evolving. See, that's one reason the Democrats are back in the driver's seat. The majority of voters decided the Republicans were heading in the wrong direction. Just as they did when they were fed up with the Clinton administration and the Democratic majority in Congress. Votes, not civil war in the streets.

You personally are seemingly intractable in your beliefs. And if your remarks and points here are indicative of the mindset of whatever your "us" defines, then the world peace is eternally doomed. Simple as that. And if you think the US is tough to deal with, just wait until you have to explain your pride thing to the Chinese infidels who will be the next world #1 power. They scare the US a lot more than any "us" does. China doesn't care about anything but China. And we are their number one customer, and even worse their number one debtor now. Crap.

Mr. Hez -

Your terms are laughable. Were Israel to give you your invaluable patch of land, return to you all of your murderers, and offer up a detailed map of remaining land mines, we are to believe that those concessions would relieve you of your injured pride? Somehow, I doubt it. Not all of us (western liberals) are as stupid as you think sir. Many of us realize that there will always be yet another grievance; another way for you to justify your fascistic impulses. And for good reason, as those like doubleplusungood are eager to indulge you to mollify their own self-imposed guilt trips. But at some point you and your ilk will have to make a choice: either stop trying to behead anyone who calls you a mean name or, god forbid, looks at you funny, or continue poking the tigers in the eyes to make you feel better about yourself. In short, worry about yourself and your own, and leave others to live in peace, or die. I become more cynical by the day; I don't think you are long for this world.

And no, doubleplusungood, having an inferiority complex does not excuse his yearning for totalitarianism.

This has been fascinating Michael, thank you for the forum. Where else can one interact with a real life Hizbulli?

I ask you why should you be respected, and treated as equals?
Because we are human beings, and human beings deserve a minimum level of respect for basic rights, right to self-determination, equality, freedom. We do not ask you to love us. Far from it. Nor do we beg you to respect us. We have come to realize that we must first rebel against our own, to make our resistance against the others meaningful. We have fought against our own tyrants and oppressors with as much vigour as we fight our non-Lebanese oppressors. We have fought against the corrupt (including Shi'ites) in our own country to the best of our abilities, and continue to do so.

You admit to targetting, with admittedly very inaccurate weapons, civilian centers. You claim this is necessary. You also demonize Israel for targetting civilian centers wherein you have always drawn support and power.
The bases of our fight were honourable and just; those of our enemy were not. If we have done what we would not have done otherwise, it is because was imposed upon us. Again I tell you, our intention was not to kill civilians, and the civilians in Israel had shelters to hide in (except in Arab areas), but to strike the heart of Israel and halt its economic and more importantly military activities. In this we were rather successful. If it had not done it, the war would've gone on for a very long time, and our people would've been collectively starved as the people of Gaza are. We adhere to justice, but our responsibility and holy duty to protect our people from further harm necessitates that we take the road that has been imposed upon us.

I ask you why should the international community submit to kidnapping and blackmail? You demonize the United States for doing it, as well as Israel, yet you do it yourselves. You then claim your own is legitimate, yet theirs is not.
To label this a kidnapping is not exactly accurate; these were soldiers in an area that does not have a peaceful border (but only a ceasefire), indeed, not even an international border that is agreed upon (blue line is not international border as you might know). Also, how do you suggest that we would have gotten our prisoners back? How would we have gotten our prisoners back if we had not carried out the operation in 2000? If Israel wanted to take away all our excuses for remaining armed (thereby strengthening internal Lebanese opposition to our weapons), why did it not free our prisoners in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, until we forced it to do so by capturing their soldiers?

You seem less "freedom fighters" than a power-hungry faction.
We do not seek power; we seek justice. That justice often cannot be achieved except by holding power is why we have entered the Lebanese political scene and run in elections. We are, unlike all other parties in Lebanon, a party that provides extensive social and health services to the local population (irrespective of sect or support for the Resistancee); we, unlike all other parties in this country, have coupled our coming to power with many benefits to our people. The regions that we are present in are the poorest of the poor in Lebanon. There is almost no government presence there, and this is not because we exist to begin with, but because they do not care, never did so;

I ask of you, if you are resisting, what are you resisting?
We are resisting all oppressors, be they local or foreign; we are resisting all those who wish to see us be slaves to American policies and interests (including those who are already slaves, like the KSA, and all other Arab countries); we are resisting those who wish to see our waters appropriated by Israel. We are resisting all those who wish to take us back to our past position of deprivation and humiliation, which you might or might not know about - I recommend that you look up the conditions of the Shi'ite community of Lebanon before the Lebanese civil war.

You seek to take a democracy and turn it into a hegemony.
We do not seek to hegemonize. We have stated time and again our willingness to work within and for the system. Our belief in the Islamic jurisprudence (Wilayat al-Faqih to be more precise) still exists, but we do not believe in imposing it on anyone; our struggle for the Islamization of Lebanese society is merely on a grassroots level, and strictly voluntary. We do not use force to impose beliefs or political support on anyone. We cannot do so because this goes against our religion, because there is no compulsion in Islam (note that we do not consider Bin Laden, the Qutbists, & co. as Muslims).

"We have given Lebanon more martyrs and restored its dignity more than any other party. We have restored the lost pride of the Arab and Muslim peoples. We do not need anyone to listen to us."

THAT is a telling statement.
Lebanon WANTS martyrs?
Lebanon has gained Dignity from being crippled?
And if you don't need anyone to listen to you, why are you making so much noise?

I hate you and your crappy death cult

.... aaaand there goes the civility.

And no, doubleplusungood, having an inferiority complex does not excuse his yearning for totalitarianism.

Where did I say anything even close to that, obe? Methinks you're hearing things.

Christ, it would be nice to have a reasonable discussion for once without people putting words in other people's mouths. It's so very lame.

You'll get it, at least from me, when you no longer start wars and kill people because you have emotional problems.
First of all, we do not have "emotional problems". Second, we did not start a war; in fact, our very raison d'etre was the Israeli occupation. Nor have we ever started wars; we have conducted operations and these operations have been with the purpose of getting our rights from a country that otherwise refuses to even recognize our legitimate existence.

My West Beirut landlord lost tens of thousands of dollars in his restaurant business because of that war you and Nasrallah started. Are you going to tell him that this is the price he must pay for your pride? What about his pride? What about his need to take care of his children and provide for them? Doesn't he count, too? He's not a Zionist or an imperialist. He's a middle class Lebanese guy who owns a restaurant and wants to live in a country that doesn't explode.
It is not so much about pride as it is about sovereignty, freedom, and honour - in my opinion honour and vain pride are two different things. When America was hit by terrorist attacks, did it fold its arms and wait for them to hit again? Notwithstanding that the whole Iraq war is a sham. Why did USA react? Why don't we have the same right to react to an equally tragic sequence of events? When we were fighting and dying for liberating the south, they all called us terrorists. But liberation only came through our struggle and martyrdom, not through a set of statements that leaders in Damascus and Ramallah make without even wanting to see the plight of their people. As for your middle-class landlord, what makes him and his plight any more important/valid than the more than 1 million lower-class, unemployed Lebanese?

We do not wish to have anything to do with Israel. At the same time, we do not accept that anyone dictate to us that we should make peace with it. We will make peace with it when the time is right for our people to come to terms with the crimes committed against them, and when we get an apology and reparation from Israel for its crimes against our people (we have all lost people in our conflict against Israel; myself/my family included). Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the war drummers in Tel Aviv who come up with massacre after massacre out of the blue.

We do not wish to have anything to do with Israel.

Whatever. You've got to be kidding.

If Israel didn't exist, you'd have to invent it.

We Zionists wear our Judaism as a badge of honor. This has become so much a matter of course with us that it fills us with amused astonishment when we behold others timidly concealing it as a stigma. In countries of mixed nationalities our colleagues have proclaimed their Jewish nationality, while demanding a regard for the needs of the Jewish people and a respect for their ethical individuality equal to that shown other peo­ples. To our youth Zionism gives pride in their history, faith in themselves, and the moral support of an ideal.

"There is nothing wrong with desiring pride, and many of us who already enjoy the privilege of power and pride take it for granted. Labeling others that seek the same as criminal or insane is, well, uncharitable to say the least." - DPU

Okay, those are your exact words. My point is that his desire for pride is not, in my mind, a reason to accomodate or approve anyone's violent acts. Is that something we can agree on?

If so, then I do not think it is constructive for you to pimp his inferiority complex. It only emboldens this disingenious position as it shows them that they can, indeed, sway sympathizers with this argument. When in fact, as I postulated, I believe that their thirst for violence will only be slaked when there is no one left with whom to disagree.

I hope that's reasonable enough for you.

My point is that his desire for pride is not, in my mind, a reason to accomodate or approve anyone's violent acts. Is that something we can agree on?

Not a reason, certainly, but recall that the Zionist movement itself excused some fairly hideous acts on the basis of safety, security, pride, and honour. Why would we excuse this for one political movement, yet not another?

If so, then I do not think it is constructive for you to pimp his inferiority complex.

Pimp? And then you have the audacity to say "reasonable enough?" No, sorry.

My point is that his desire for pride is not, in my mind, a reason to accomodate or approve anyone's violent acts. Is that something we can agree on?
Would that not remove the entire Zionist enterprise? Or is that to be taken for granted?

As for your implication that I am here to be pitied, or to receive support, you could not be more mistaken. This is the heart of the problem; you cannot win against an enemy that you do not understand, presuming that we are USA's enemies (being on the U.S terrorist list, and being awarded with our "fair" share of DU bombs every now and then, via the UK, Kuwait, and other Arab puppet states). So, do yourself a favour and educate yourself on what we truly want, otherwise you are bound to be met by failure after failure, as Iraq & Afghanistan indeed demonsrate.

Ali,

Forgetting all your ridiculous lies for a moment, let me enlighten you to something.

Every Israel supporter, myself included, would be delighted to have peace with you. If you came forth and said 'lets have peace' and found a way to work it out, Israel would make peace with you.

What is very clear to us all is that you arent interested. You want to destroy Israel as a state, kill as many Jews as possible, and support terror worldwide.

This is why all of your arguments are meaningless. One side wants peace and the other wants war. You could end all of that suffering you lament if tomorrow you got up and declared that you are ready for peace talks and come up with a reasonable plan for peace. But you arent interested. So you will continue to suffer, both by bombs and your own delusions of righteousness until one day your grandchild wakes up and asks himself 'What was all this for? We gained nothing and could have ended it generations ago'.

You are a sad deluded person who is guaranteeing suffering for himself and his people for generations. I have no pity for you or your supporters. You get what you deserve when you reject peace and demand war.

Forgetting all your ridiculous lies for a moment, let me enlighten you to something.

If the basis of your discourse is that the other party is lying, then you're wasting everyone's time by participating. Either dismiss them as a liar and do not discuss, or do them the favor of assuming that they are being honest, and discuss. Any other option is verbal masturbation.

presuming that we are USA's enemies

Why would anyone presume that?

Hassan Nasrallah: America, America you are the Great Satan.

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1053

Nasrallah: This American administration is an enemy. Our motto, which we are not afraid to repeat year after year, is: 'Death to America.'"

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP86705

Oh yeah. It's because of stuff like that.

I almost forgot for a second.

What is very clear to us all is that you arent interested.
How is that clear? What do you base your accusations of our desire to kill Jews (the people of the book) on?? And just because Olmert the war criminal and terrorist says he wants to talk to Siniora means the Israelis want peace? I will tell you what the Israelis want, and they think this is the right concept of peace. They want peace on their own terms. In other words, peace that for us would be deemed unjust. You know how the cliche saying goes, we'd rather die on our feet than live on our knees. Now the rest of the details, which you will raise in the context of us "complaining" about Israeli bombardments, these would have to fall under the rules of war, which Israel has not shown any willingness to abide by.

We refuse to submit to blackmail. That is what Israeli "peace" gestures are all about.

Moreover, real peace does not come between leaders, but between people. I do not see how that can happen when you have one side having committed massacre after massacre against our people, without even having accepted full responsibility and made reparation payments. That is like saying that the Jews should make peace with Germany after the Holocaust and "let bygones be bygones".

"That is like saying that the Jews should make peace with Germany after the Holocaust and "let bygones be bygones"."

DPU, do you still think people need to be civil to this person?

There really is no point.

Oh yeah. It's because of stuff like that.
Rather, it is primarily because of our alleged responsiblity for the bombings of the marine barracks.

Did you also know that Mr. Nabih Berri - leader of our competitor the Amal party/ex-militia, who is now allegedly mediating the "national dialogue" in Lebanon and shuttling back & forth between Riyadh,Beirut, and God knows where else, is also on USA's terror list? In case you did not know, Mr. Berri's militia Amal clashed with Hizbullah during the later stages of the civil war, and in fact one of the causes for the clash was the issue of William Higgins, regarding whom Berri collaborated with Israel and USA? More food for thought. A mystery that Memri does not solve for you.

Jihadis like AlGhaliboon have this strange idea that they have the right to make war eternally while demanding that there never be any consequences. They combine the murderousness of vendetta with the self delusion of the religious fanatic.

Not only can such an attitude only bring suffering to generation after generation, but it's also suicidally archaic - no one, no groups even, can survive in the modern world where technology makes even genocide an instant, push-button affair, if they cannot respect their neighbors' right to life.

AlGhaliboon and his sort doom their own decendents. I already grieve for the wars they will start, and the populations, probably their own, that, given their insistance on blood, cannot survive in this modern world where slaughter is instant and easy.

You believe that God is on your side. But it's funny how God never actually helps. No matter how much the preacher screams that God demands blood, if you cannot make peace with the world you are doomed. You will all die screaming Allah Akbar, and I doubt that God will notice.

Rather, it is primarily because of our alleged responsiblity for the bombings of the marine barracks.

Whatever. You're the one who wrote "presuming that we are USA's enemies."

And now, suddenly, you come up with an obvious reason. Shocker.

Find as many reasons as you like. Or not. Who cares?

It's plain as day, despite your games.

Cheers.

Ali,

You didnt answer anything.

What is your current problem with Israel? Shebaa farms? you can guarantee that if they were convinced that you would truly end fighting them that you would get in tomorrow. The fact that everyone is aware of (and admitted by Hezbollah) is that this is all a pretext to destroying Israel. Nasrallah has said it as well as many others. Dont make believe that your fight is about reparations. Your fight is about destroying Israel. You are not interested in peaceful co-existence.

The way that you got into this mess is by hosting the PLO who massacred and murdered innocent Israeli civilians. When Israel came to root them out you suffered as well, but now that they have left, what is your complaint? The fact that when you hosted the PLO you suffered? Whose fault is that?

You claim that you are mad at what they did to you. Great. And they are mad at what you did to them. This is true in all wars. Peace means finding a way to move forward in spite of the past. State your demands and if they are reasonable and if Israel could truly believe that you truly meant to accept peace, you would get most of your demands. But no person with an ounce of sanity believes that Hezbollah wants peace after all, they themselves admit what their true aims are.

The problem is that you have said openly and repeatedly that you are interested in nothing less than the destruction of Israel. That isnt negotiatiable.

And so, you and your children, and your grandchildren will all suffer horribly for your absolutist demands and fanatical devotion to getting yourselves into endless pointless wars. No matter how weak you think Israel is, if they truly believed their survival was at stake, they would unleash on you suffering that would make any past suffering look miniscule. And why should it even come to that? You can have peace tomorrow if you really wanted it. But you dont.

Sorry, DPU, I don't care what the Zionist movement has or has not done in the past. If I thought that Israel (or the Zionist entity or Germany or the US or Norway) were using carefully cultured victimhood as a cover to committ murder, then I would say so. Your inability to do so is a major moral blind spot.
And I'm sorry if the word "pimp" offended you, I didn't realize that it had been deemed, ahem, double plus ungood. Again, I was trying to point out that your support of his rationalization only increases his own will to justify his murders. Please dispute this argument on its merits instead of objecting to the language in such Orwellian fashion if you disagree.

Mr. Hez -

Perhaps you have a point. I naively assumed that I knew what you wanted. Perhaps it is my narrow Occidental mind. But I judge you on your actions, not your pathetic propaganda. You make the mistake in believing your own lies. You can bribe and intimidate the populace there to "support" you, but if others are successful in their attempt build a free and honorable Lebanon, they will abandon you. If a free and honorable Lebanon is what you desire, then you should know that your marginal utility in continued violence is close to nil. What does it accomplish towards that end but, as you say "give Lebanon more martyrs and restore its pride". Nothing. But you know that. And that's how I know you don't care anything about freedom or safety for your people.

This is the heart of the problem; you cannot win against an enemy that you do not understand, presuming that we are USA's enemies...

Trust me, my fellow Americans and our politicians are slowly beginning to understand our enemies. Perhaps we didn't understand before invading Afghanistan and defeating the Taliban or attacking Iraq and defeating Saddam, but we're learing fast. We understand that like yourself, our enemies are not rational and can not be reasoned or negotiated with.

You only understand violence and death. No amount of prisoner exchanges, land concessions or land mine maps will quench your thirst for killing. The next time Hezballa follows the orders from their Iranian and Syrian masters to attack Israel, you shouldn't count on the US to pressure Israel to use restraint, as was the case in the last conflict.

Even left-wing Americans are getting tired of making excuses for your irrational, violent, backwards ideology.

Whats with the baseball hats alghal?

Josh,

I do not blame you for your limited understanding of our religion, based mostly on misrepresentations thereof by terrorists like Bin Laden, Zarqawi, and their followers. But while not knowing is not a guilt in and of itself, not wanting to know/learn is not a good thing. Your understanding of the term Jihad is shaped by - as I said - what the non-Muslim world talks about in reference to mostly 9/11. Jihad is a much deeper concept than you think it is; it is a struggle to remain in our faith; it has nothing to do with killing or justifying crimes/murder.

We do not demand - and never did - that there be no consequences for our actions. We knew full well what the consequences would be when we waged our resistance and liberation movement against Israel, with which we liberated the South of Lebanon. We accepted it as the necessary sacrifice in quest for justice. We are not afraid of martyrdom; we seek it. At the same time, we value life and try to preserve it as much as possible. We have experienced, in our tumultuous history as Shi'ites in an overwhelmingly Sunni region, all sorts of oppression and massacres; we have overcome these and will continue to overcome these, and you may accuse us of pursuing vendettas or endorsing religious fanaticism, but our religious fanaticism and our deep respect for life have ensured our continuity (through a concept called "Taqiyya" that Shi'ites practice when in danger - namely hiding that you are a Muslim or Shi'ite to preserve/save your life).

You are free to believe that God does not listen, but faith is the pillar of our existence; moreover, we serve God rather than the other way around. Our entire lives are attempts to live the way he wants us to, and to serve him, because that is the only right path.

Anyway, this is a bit irrelevant; but just thought I'd point out the difference between mainstream understanding of Jihadism and what Jihadism really means in Islam.

Joe,

My name is not Ali. Where did you get that from?

What is your current problem with Israel?
Many things. Its past crimes against our people (including the July war), its refusal to acknowledge these and make reparations, its refusal to take back the Palestinian refugees, its violation of our sovereignty, its occupation of Sheba'a farms, Kfar Shouba Hills, the 7 Shi'ite villages; its definition of what its FINAL borders are; its desecration of our Holy places in the Holy Land, and on and on it goes.

The fact that everyone is aware of (and admitted by Hezbollah) is that this is all a pretext to destroying Israel.
Where has Hezbullah admitted that this is a pretext to destroy Israel?

Your fight is about destroying Israel. You are not interested in peaceful co-existence.
We have stated that while our struggle is not independent of the larger Arab-Israeli conflict, we are willing to accept any solution that is acceptable for the Palestinians, and which would finally resolve the whole conflict. However, we are not ready to be neutralized so that Israel would continue practicing its massacres against the Palestinians (Muslims) and destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

The way that you got into this mess is by hosting the PLO who massacred and murdered innocent Israeli civilians.
We, namely the Shi'ites, were at odds with the PLO. It was Israel's unwise indiscriminate actions against our people that earned itself an enemy such as us, who are dedicated to getting our full rights back from Israel if it ever wishes to get us to recognize its legitimacy.

When Israel came to root them out you suffered as well, but now that they have left, what is your complaint? The fact that when you hosted the PLO you suffered? Whose fault is that?
The PLO left in 1982. Why did Israel remain in Lebanon? Wasn't their purpose rooting out the PLO? The PLO left to Tunisia. What explains the 18-year occupation?

I do not blame you for your limited understanding of our religion, based mostly on misrepresentations thereof by terrorists like Bin Laden, Zarqawi, and their followers...

When I said that you damand to avoid the consequences for your actions, I did not base my statement on Bin Laden's comments but on your own.

I'll get back to this later but I have to leave the house now...

But I leave you with one principle to consider:

A war will continue until one side is defeated (and usually destroyed) or until peace is made. But your side obviously, always rejects peace, so you leave only complete defeat as the only conclusion. Your chosen enemies will eventually tire of being harmed and simply slaughter you, and having chosen eternal warfare over peaceful coexistence you will be to blame, dead though you'll all be.

However your children, your neighbors, your families, your people, all dead by your side will not be to blame, not all of them. They'll be the victims of your foolishness.

Oops I messed up a tag. That post should have read:

I do not blame you for your limited understanding of our religion, based mostly on misrepresentations thereof by terrorists like Bin Laden, Zarqawi, and their followers...

When I said that you damand to avoid the consequences for your actions, I did not base my statement on Bin Laden's comments but on your own.

I'll get back to this later but I have to leave the house now...

But I leave you with one principle to consider:

A war will continue until one side is defeated (and usually destroyed) or until peace is made. But your side obviously, always rejects peace, so you leave only complete defeat as the only conclusion. Your chosen enemies will eventually tire of being harmed and simply slaughter you, and having chosen eternal warfare over peaceful coexistence you will be to blame, dead though you'll all be.

However your children, your neighbors, your families, your people, all dead by your side will not be to blame, not all of them. They'll be the victims of your foolishness.

now, suddenly, you come up with an obvious reason. Shocker.
An obvious reason? What's so "obvious" in the following statement: "our alleged responsiblity for the bombings of the marine barracks."

“My name is not Ali. Where did you get that from?”

I read the beginning of your name wrong. Sorry.

“ its refusal to take back the Palestinian refugees, its desecration of our Holy places in the Holy Land, and on and on it goes.”

In other words, the existence of Israel as a state.

“its violation of our sovereignty”

There was no violation until you started the war.

“its occupation of Sheba'a farms, Kfar Shouba Hills, the 7 Shi'ite villages; its definition of what its FINAL borders are”

These are minor issues which would definitely be resolved if you wanted peace.

“Where has Hezbullah admitted that this is a pretext to destroy Israel? “

What is the pointof debating if you don’t wish to be honest? There are hundreds of such statements. I am sure you have heard them and not only that but you admitted it yourself above.

You can use google for a moment and find many examples. Here is but one:

http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/021014fa_fact4

"If they go from Shebaa, we will not stop fighting them," he told me. "Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine," he added, referring to the year of Israel's founding. The Jews who survive this war of liberation, Ezzeddin said, "can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from." He added, however, that the Jews who lived in Palestine before 1948 will be "allowed to live as a minority and they will be cared for by the Muslim majority." Sayyid Nasrallah himself told a conference held in Tehran last year that "we all have an extraordinary historic opportunity to finish off the entire cancerous Zionist project."

“The PLO left in 1982. Why did Israel remain in Lebanon? Wasn't their purpose rooting out the PLO? The PLO left to Tunisia. What explains the 18-year occupation?”

The fact you decided to replace the PLO as the aggressor. Do you think they were there for the beaches, the nice shade?

You're right. Once again. It's practically uncanny.

After the barracks bombing, the idiot Americans should have presumed that it was the Dutch or the Buddhists that consider America their enemy, especially considering all the "Death to America" rallies in Amsterdam and Shanghai, that continue to this day.

One more point as I run out the door. You chose not to acknowledge what I said about warfare being obsolete in a modern world where a population can be exterminated with the simple press of a button.

But that is the case. Consider that 60 years ago 100,000 people died in a single day in Tokyo, and the same number in one night in Dresden. And Hiroshima and Nagasaki proved that this could happen faster than a night, in less than a single second.

So far your enemies have been merciful. But no one can be intrasigent, demanding the impossible on pain of death in this modern world. Your enemies could stop being merciful at any time. They could slaughter you all in less than a single second.

Your Jihad is from a different era, from a world where men killed with swords. Where there was no reason that wars ever had to end.

That world is long over, and now you only continue to live because your enemies are more merciful than you are. Once you understand this, you will see that winning is impossible. It's a dream from another century. You can only fight until your enemy decides he'd rather have peace, even at the cost of the guilt of pushing those buttons.

You have not caught up with Einstein's famous remark, calling for peace now that the world has atomic weapons. He said: "Everything has changed except our way of thinking."

The world has change. Now your thinking must change, if you are not to die foolishly, every one of you.

Understand that I'm not talking about nuclear weapons only, just what war means in a world with advance technology. War has become absurd. It's no longer tenable, period.

In other words, the existence of Israel as a state.
How does the existence of the state of Israel necessitate the desecration of our Holy Places?

There was no violation until you started the war.
Which war are you referring to? The 1982 invasion? We did not exist before Israel's invasion. The war of liberation of the south? That was taking place in Lebanon, and it was our legitimate right to kick out the occupiers who were there for no reason (this is not a chicken or the egg game, south Lebanon is LEBANON, not Israel, and Israel was in South LEBANON); the 2006 operation that was used as an excuse to launch a war? I am referring to the violation of our AIRSPACE way before that, before 2000, and between 2000 and 2006. So, technically, our capture of the 2 soldiers was a retaliation.

What is the pointof debating if you don’t wish to be honest? There are hundreds of such statements. I am sure you have heard them and not only that but you admitted it yourself above.
Let us not take such personal shots about honesty, I could make them too if I wanted to, but I am not doing so. There are hundreds of such statements, please come up with one where Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah says that this is merely a PRETEXT to destroy Israel.

New Yorker? A reporter at large? Someone who from the start reveals his bias and calls us terrorists? At least he could TRY to claim neutrality for his own reputation....

The fact you decided to replace the PLO as the aggressor. Do you think they were there for the beaches, the nice shade?
Aggressor? So our operations inside the occupied territories, namely South Lebanon, were acts of AGGRESSION? What a nice concept. So Israel chose to occupy part of Lebanon because we were attacking it to free that part. Yeah, that makes sense.

So far your enemies have been merciful.
And we're supposed to be grateful? This is EXACTLY why Israel should be disarmed, or a nuclear balance should be achieved in the region. And then you wonder why anyone in the region would want to get nukes? Are you for real? Israel has shown it does not value human life; it has committed massacre after massacre against innocent women and children, do you think we rely on their goodwill?

At any rate, I already said that we would rather die fighting than live as slaves. But the fact that you are aware that Israel might commit such a crime against humanity and choose to endorse its nuclear capabilities, is indicative of your moral standards, I would say, or at least your agenda of wanting us to be subjugated and to submit to western rule. But here's the bad (or good?) news for you. We will fight to the last man, and bury our children with our own hands, if it will mean that we will prevent (or die trying) such a thing from being a reality. We are Karbala'is, carriers of the spirit of martyrdom of Imam Hussein.

Now I really am leaving, but I've noticed that you pick and choose phrases from my arguement that you can take out of context, slightly.

I suggest that, in the privacy of your own heart, you consider what the meaning of all of my words are taken together, rather than a few chosen to be easy to answer. Take on the harder problem I'm talking about rather than childishly easy one of attacking a phrase here and there without thinking.

You dont like my sources that Hizbollah seeks to destroy Israel? Here's another.

"When Israel ended its 18-year occupation of Lebanon in 2000, Nasrallah declared, "We have liberated the south. Next we'll liberate Jerusalem." "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/14/AR2006071401401_pf.html

How about this. Can you show me an official statement of Hizbollah regarding Israel which in any way says that they accept the idea of Israel existing. There are plenty of sources that say the opposite, all of which you will claim to be unreliable. Do you really think this is an argument you can win? Are you really trying to say that Hizbollah is open to the idea of the existence of Israel? Lets debate reality instead of fantasy.

I also find it funny how you describe Israel's 'desecration' of muslim holy sites. The most holy Jewish site in the world is the Temple Mount of which the Israeli's gave full control to the Waqf. I presume you mean desecration as in 'Jews walk there'.

You refer to violation of sovereignty, but there was no violation for years until your war, so how can that be listed in your list of grievances? You brought it upon yourself.

When I referred to why the Israelis remained it was because it became clear that you were planning to take the place of the PLO in terror attacks against the Israeli populace. A belief which turned out to be true. So that is why they stayed to fight you.

This is all irrelevant. You will always find reasons for grievance until Israel ceases to exist. If Israel came to you tomorrow and offered you all of the lands you dispute as well as a graduated release of all prisoners in exchange for full peace you would not take it. You would demand that they engage in war with you and your kids and grandchildren.

And when you moan and groan about all your suffering at the hands of the Israelis you can look in the mirror and blame yourself for continuing this useless state of war. When those poor children die in Qana you are their butcher for making a war when there doesnt need to be and for shelling civilians populations (Kiryat Shemona, Tzfat, etc...) from the cover of these poor children.

Here to follow is a basic lesson in why Americans simply do not, nor care to understand Hezboli mindset, as exhibited by our friend AlGhaliboon:

Our history attests to this. We have given Lebanon more martyrs and restored its dignity more than any other party… We are not afraid of martyrdom; we seek it.
-AlGhaliboon

No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
-George S. Patton

Until you understand the difference between these two world views you will never grasp why we consider your ‘Resistance’ and its concordant bragging about ‘numbers of martyrs’ to be fundamentally psychotic, irrational, and contemptible.

One final note; all of your arguments presume our ignorance of Nasrallah and the fundamental charter of Hizb’allah. How unfortunate for you.

DPU, do you still think people need to be civil to this person?

Absolutely. My own knowledge of the history of the Arab/Zionist conflict is woefully inadequate, although I'm part way through Benny Morris' Righteous Victims at the moment (a great read, by the way). I've read all of MJT's postings from Lebanon and Israel with a lot of interest, but haven't heard a lot from the Hezbollah perspective.

AlGhaliboon strikes me as erudite and intelligent in presenting his arguments. While it would be nice to see solid arguments in response, so far there's a lot of spittle and name-calling, which doesn't reflect well on those with a differing point of view.

To my mind, it's more than worthwhile to at least hear the other side's perspective. When that perspective is put forward in a reasonable tone, I'm not sure why it provokes a venomous response instead of reasonable arguments.

At any rate, I expect the tone to continue to degenerate here, and with it the worth of the discussion.

This is all irrelevant. You will always find reasons for grievance until Israel ceases to exist. If Israel came to you tomorrow and offered you all of the lands you dispute as well as a graduated release of all prisoners in exchange for full peace you would not take it. You would demand that they engage in war with you and your kids and grandchildren.

I hate conjecture presented as fact.

DPU,

Nevermind.

I thought I highlighted one of his "arguments" to which all decent people would not only find incredibly offensive, but which illustrates that he is not a person of good will - but you didn't bat an eyelash.

To each their own.

Cheers.

"I hate conjecture presented as fact."

It is a rational conclusion based on the words of our guest here.

Should he wish to disagree and claim that he would like a rational peace I would love to hear it.

I thought I highlighted one of his "arguments" to which all decent people would not only find incredibly offensive, but which illustrates that he is not a person of good will - but you didn't bat an eyelash.

I have already seen a dozen arguments here that I find deeply distasteful. That doesn't mean that it's an excuse for me to be a big-mouthed prick about it.

Other's mileage, of course, may vary.

It is a rational conclusion based on the words of our guest here.

Everyone, including the most delusional psychopaths, believe their own conclusion to be rational. They often don't make a good basis for fact. however.

"The mark of an immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel

Of course, dying together for an absurd cause is not the way adults act, it's the way children act. Dying toghether is less painful than admitting that what you've been taught is wrong and has to change, but being that responsible means standing alone.

If you'd kill your children rather than take the responsibility and stand alone against those among your own people who doom them, then you are no man at all.

You must be less than a slave, you must be mindless. You must be too cowardly to care, too cowardly to give your children the life you owe them if caring and if being responsible means standing alone like an adult. You would rather die than care, rather die than think, rather die than see, rather die than be a good parent, rather die than be human because you are too afraid to stand alone.

Well, not everyone can react to ridiculous, hateful and cynically self-serving analogies with as much ease and grace as you do.

I apologize on everyone's behalf.

Should he wish to disagree and claim that he would like a rational peace I would love to hear it.

No. Presenting a strawman and then demanding that others demolish it in order to prove it incorrect is a mug's game. If you are earnest in your desire to discuss this issue, you would ask his position, and then debate that, if necessary. You would not state your conjecture as though it were gospel.

Exactly Josh. Hizb'allah does not conduct resistance. It conducts temper-tantrums with high explosives.

Well, not everyone can react to ridiculous, hateful and cynically self-serving analogies with as much ease and grace as you do.

I eagerly await your analysis of his analogy, why you think it hateful, cynical, and ridiculous, and why everyone else should instantly come to the same conclusion that you do and end their civility.

Because compared Israelis to nazis, even though the only reason they went to Lebanon in the first place is because the PLO was staging terror attacks from their safe haven there.

And if you think that's even remotely a fair comparison, add "World War II education" to your current studies on the Arab/Israeli conflict.

why everyone else should instantly come to the same conclusion that you do and end their civility.

I have yet to be uncivil to him. I simply don't blame others for not granting him the respect you believe he deserves, based on his "erudition."

Josh,

We are talking about the issue of pretexts. You said that Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah directly admitted that we are using all those issues as a pretext to destroy Israel. Where did he say so? I still await the quote in which he admits that all of this is a pretext rather than legitimate concerns/rights?

Why should we recognize Israel in return for nothing? Israel does not recognize our legitimacy, or the legitimacy of our people's grievances and their right to resist the occupation.

We do not see any obtacles in recognizing Israel in borders that would be deemed acceptable to the Palestinians, and a final settlement that would see the folder of Palestinian refugees closed for good. At the very least what Israel should do is give the Palestinian refugees their legitimate and internationally recognized right, and that is the right of return and reparation for all those who suffered losses of property, family members, etc.

We are opposed to the Zionist entity because it is based on injustice and disposession.

I presume you mean desecration as in 'Jews walk there'.
I do not understand your obsession with proving our anti-Semitism. The Western Wall, or al-Buraq wall, is as holy to us as to the Jews. In fact, the Western Wall was not part of Jewish religious importance until after the dispersion of the Jews, and indeed the wall is not part of the temple as is commonly known. Also, they are carrying out excavations under the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which has highly increased the chances of its collapse.

You refer to violation of sovereignty, but there was no violation for years until your war, so how can that be listed in your list of grievances? You brought it upon yourself.
Again, WHICH war? I am telling you - and you can accuse me of lying but that won't go well with UNIFIL daily reports between 2000 & 2006 - that the Israelis violated our airspace on a daily bases before we launched the war that you accuse us of launching...

it was because it became clear that you were planning to take the place of the PLO in terror attacks against the Israeli populace. A belief which turned out to be true. So that is why they stayed to fight you.
Heh, going back and arguing about something based on knowledge that was not available at the time? That's fallacious my friend. Also, what part of: "our raison d'etre was Israeli occupation" did you not understand? How does that prove that we were planning on carrying out terror attacks against Israeli populace?!? What is this preposterous assumption based on??

This is all irrelevant.
It is not. How can it be? I am telling you that regardless of what led to the Israeli invasion of 1982, fact is, Israel practiced indiscriminate attacks against our people, turning us against them when we had no historical grudges against them that one can speak of.

If anyone in this particular conflict can fairly be compared to the Nazis:

One group has, at a minimum, adopted a certain, shall we say, style, let alone wallowing in mountains of anti-Semitic paranoia and propaganda.

And if you think that's even remotely a fair comparison, add "World War II education" to your current studies on the Arab/Israeli conflict.

I'm already know something of that conflict.

Because compared Israelis to nazis, even though the only reason they went to Lebanon in the first place is because the PLO was staging terror attacks from their safe haven there.

I understand why Israelis would find being compared to Nazis deeply offensive, but in this case, he was comparing the Arab sense of resentment against injustices from the Israeli state to that that of the Jews against Germany. While I think it a poor choice of analogies because of differences in scale and because of the emotional backlash such comparisons elicit, I don't think the intent was to call Israelis Nazis, but rather to put the resentment in historical terms that we're familiar with.

I have yet to be uncivil to him. I simply don't blame others for not granting him the respect you believe he deserves, based on his "erudition."

You don't think that he has been measured in his tone, or think that he has been uncivil? Where?

Josh, I find your accusation that we do not care about our people and our children offensive to say the least; we care for our children as much as you do for yours, and the Israelis do for theirs. We would like to limit our fight to the battlefield, so let them fight like men and leave our children out of this. However, that they do/will not do so does/will not make us accept their blackmail so that our children would live - only to be slaves. We absolutely reject even the idea of it. If that means we do not care about our children, then by all means go ahead and call us whatever you want.

SoCalJustice,

Where did I compare Israelis to Nazis?

I don't think the intent was to call Israelis Nazis, but rather to put the resentment in historical terms that we're familiar with.

Well, it's nice of you to give him that much credit.

But those terms we're familiar with is the wholesale and racist slaughter of 6 million fully integrated and contributing citizens of European nations whose soul "crime" was not being born "Aryan."

Even granting your reasoning behind his use of such a comparison (which I do not, but even if I did), it is offensive.

DPU, for those who follow these arguments alot, that is a typical argument made by individuals on his side - comparisons of Jews and Israelis to Nazis. So those of us who follow these arguments are used to such rhetoric and tend to not credit the arguers better angels.

You don't think that he has been measured in his tone, or think that he has been uncivil?

That's not the point. Measured, sure. Selective, obviously. Disingenuous, inredibly. Offensive, purposefully.

To repeat, I haven't been uncivil and called him any names. I just don't blame others who have. I recognize him for what he is, and chose not to give him credit for engaging in honest discourse, no matter how "polite" he may appear.

Off for the night. Have a good one, I mean that. I appreciate your attempts to raise the level of discourse, I just don't think this guy is worth it, least of which because of his obvious dissembling on whether or not Hizballah considers itself to be America's enemy.

To be American in the extreme: duh.

Anyway - in a great mood because of the election results.

Not going to let a Hizballah dude ruin my day.

Good night.

Not going to let a Hizballah dude ruin my day.

Y'know, no matter how much I disagree with someone else's ideas, I find that as long as the discussion is reasonable in tone with respect on both sides, it doesn't ruin my day. I'm mystified by why others can get so bent out of shape by someone else's opinion.

The number one thing I will personally take away today from the forthright comments of AlGhaliboon is that I now more fully comprehend that Lebanon is up against a most difficult, if not impossible, task of ever demilitarizing Hisbollah and creating a peaceful, democratic country. I now see why some here have already acceded to the certainty of the next violent episode in the region.

The only contradiction I have seen in AlGhaliboon's comments was the reference he made to hiding the fact one is a Shi'ite when in danger versus the admonition to martyr oneself for that very same religious distinction. Martyrdom must be a contextually sensitive act then. Otherwise, he has laid out a well explained platform that is easily comprehended and which allows neither room for moderation, nor negotiation.

I take it that once Israel has been dealt with to their satisfaction, the next group to feel their wrath and desire for justice shall be the Sunnis who have abused them for centuries before this current abusement from the Israelis. Huge reparations should be forthcoming in that regard considering the oil reserves alone. Perhaps that is the source of distancing from and contempt for Bin Laden and Zarqawi, as stated above. And Syrians are mostly Sunni also, correct?

I, for one, am very grateful for what I have learned today. Can you imagine this discourse in say the NY Times? And on top of that I have access to the secret location of an abandoned Corvair somewhere in the wilds of Colorado. Some blog you have here, Mr Totten.

One group has, at a minimum, adopted a certain, shall we say, style,...

Whatever that link was to, it was too slow-loading to view. But I take it it was of Hezbollah members giving the straight-armed salute?

I have no idea if the Hezbollah use of this salute has its basis in mimicry of the Nazi salute, and would hope not. But it should be remembered that this is also the Roman salute, historically used for swearing allegiance and oaths, and it was even used in the US during the pledge of allegiance until the forties. It's is still used for swearing oaths by the government of Taiwan and as their military salute. The Tamil separatist movement also uses this salute.

Josh, I find your accusation that we do not care about our people and our children offensive to say the least; we care for our children as much as you do for yours, and the Israelis do for theirs. We would like to limit our fight to the battlefield, so let them fight like men and leave our children out of this. However, that they do/will not do so does/will not make us accept their blackmail so that our children would live - only to be slaves. We absolutely reject even the idea of it. If that means we do not care about our children, then by all means go ahead and call us whatever you want.

I stopped in for one second between errands to see what you replied. Instead of taking the time at this very moment, I'm going to simply point out that there are a number of obvious falacies in your arguement. Take a moment to imagine what my responses to your arguement would be, I think you'll realize that you've been lying, not least to yourself.

Your children are not slaves unless you're the one making them so.

The Palestinians are not your people - you keep them in the worst refugee camps in the middle east, precisely because shiites like yourself don't want Sunni Palestinians living in Lebanon, making Sunnis a majority. Right now, Iran, who pays Hezbollah, is also paying groups just like yours to slaughter more Sunni brothers in Iraq.

And of course the most aggregious error is your pretense that you don't support attacking civilians. You don't support Israel attacking your civilians, but you'll support anyone who attacks Israeli civilians. That's war after all, and you're not going to change the nature of war just in the false hope that the war you insist on making forever will somehow not lead to your own extermination. Sorry, that's not war anymore. I told you that warfare is absurd in this century. The Iraq war was only possible because Saddam was weak. Once one side isn't weak anymore, only a fool would fight, because in the future, war will equal instant genocide. Welcome to the 21st century.

Anyway I answered quickly and carelessly, so don't fault me for being crude.

There are some truths in what I said that I believe bear some reflection. Please consider, please stop and think for a while.

Allan,

I do not see how the issue of Taqiyya & martyrdom are contradictory. Taqiyya at any rate is done in rare cases (and of course as long as the person holds true to his faith in his heart), and not in all cases where there is war. In other words, Taqiyya is usually practiced in cases where the issue is restricted merely to being Muslim/Shi'ite and being persecuted for it (this can be explained by the Sunni persecution of Shi'ites throughout the ages), rather than general warfare.

Our weapons are not eternal, as Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah already pointed out. We feel that we can disarm when the army is capable of preventing Israeli occupation of our land as much as we did in the July war. We also need guarantees and most importantly the disarmament of Palestinians in & out of the camps in Lebanon; the rest are minor issues. Until then our weapons will continue to be the one and only deterrence against Israel. At the end of the day, our absolute loyalty and allegiance is to Lebanon.

As for Bin Laden, Zarqawi, & co., we do not merely distance ourselves from them. We condemn their terrorism in the strictest of terms. They are unbelievers. This has nothing to do with the Sunni-Shi'ite issue, except for the fact that the Saudi Arabians have been generously funding Wahabism throughout the Muslim world.

And I must say, the offense is not that I point out the obvious fact that Hezbollah is deadly to your children, to shiites and to Lebanon, the offense is that you allow and support Hezbollah to continue to be a deadly threat to your children, to shiites and to Lebanon. Assuming that you are Lebanese, you are quite exactly a traitor to your people.

The Palestinians are not your people - you keep them in the worst refugee camps in the middle east
The Palestinians are in refugee camps because settling them elsewhere would mean giving up on the right of return. The Palestinians are treated despicably in that they are not allowed to practice certain jobs - absolutely. This is due to the despotic rulers of the M.E, which are all supported by USA.

Also, Shi'ites are an absolute majority in the Middle East, and only in Iran do we have a Shi'ite government. The rest are Sunni controlled governments, except for the Alawite Ba'ath regime in Syria. How does this explain the fact that they have not naturalized the Palestinians?

As for the claim that our views of the Palestinians are shaped by the Sunni-Shi'ite split, where does the issue of nationalism come into play here? Or are you saying we do not have national allegiances and loyalties, only religious/sectarian ones? Are we, as Shi'ites who support Hezbullah, Lebanese? If not, why would we even care about what the Lebanese do to the Palestinians? If so, why would we not care about the settlement of Palestinians in a place that is not theirs - for what? so that the Israelis would live happily ever after?

Right now, Iran, who pays Hezbollah, is also paying groups just like yours to slaughter more Sunni brothers in Iraq.
Proof, please.

You don't support Israel attacking your civilians, but you'll support anyone who attacks Israeli civilians.
Another hollow accusation.

Sorry, meant to say, "Shi'ites are an absolute MINORITY in the Middle East."

Ok, now you're just lying.

This conversation is over.

Assuming that you are Lebanese, you are quite exactly a traitor to your people.

Sigh. The name-calling never s