June 07, 2006

"They Call Us Cockroaches"

I mentioned before that I interviewed Hezbollah's Mohammad Afif in the suburbs south of Beirut and that he had almost nothing to say that wasn't boilerplate propaganda. It was boring and useless and I saw no point in publishing it. But he did say two interesting things. The first I quoted here. And here is the second:

I asked him what he thought of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, Zarqawi's head-chopping mosque-burning faction in Iraq. I knew he would condemn them, of course, but I didn't expect to find his condemnation convincing.

But I did, as it turned out, find his condemnation convincing.

"We hate them," he said. "They call us cockroaches and murder our people."

It's hard to think he came up with that answer just to assuage me. Hezbollah is Arab and Shia just as many of Zarqawi's victims in Iraq are.

Mohammad Afif's opposition to Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia is instinctive. Nouri Lumendifi, an Algerian Shia who blogs at The Moor Next Door, is a little more (actually, a lot more) liberal and thoughtful about it. "I hate Islamists," he says. And then he says more.

UPDATE: From Instapundit:
HEZBOLLAH hates Zarqawi. Overall, his popularity seems rather low.

UPDATE: And Zarqawi hates Hezbollah!

Is it just me, or is the Middle East a lot like 7th Grade with RPGs?
It's also a bit like a loony bin with RPGs. I mean, for God's sake, Zarqawi is accusing Hezbollah of being a cover for Israel. He would be hilarious if he weren't a psychopath.

UPDATE: Got the motherfucker. He's dead.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2006 12:17 PM
Comments

That's very interesting. And unfortunately, it uncovers a weakness in much American thought vis-a-vis radical militant Islamicism: We tend to lump it all in together. Most of us forget that there are different movements within the radical militant Islamic world. I know that statement is obvious to the point of "duh!" to your Middle-Eastern readers, Michael, but to many middle Americans, it's a distinction we tend not to make. "Al-Qaeda" equals "Hezbollah" in many US citizen's eyes, mostly because we focus on the violence, and not the specific motivations behind it.

Thanks for the insight.

Posted by: ElMondoHummus at June 7, 2006 12:50 PM

Before the Wall, Israel had public transportation subject to bombings. The entire bus would be alit, from one suicide bomber. Things are better now.

It's interesting that the Israelis aren't as mindful of good manners as they are of good security.

And, ya know what? The word "cockaroaches" is English. If you said a Mexican said it, I'd say "no." They probabably said "kuca-rat-cha."

Can't imagine that language in Ramallah is leveling off into English. Where Hebrew is the first language, there. And, lots of words describe terrorirsts. Except, of course, when you let Reuters decide on words.

Was there once more hope? Sure. I think so. Before the Wall, which came only after the obscene bombings; I think many Israelis had hoped for co-existence. But today? You're not even going to get co-existence at haaaarvard.

The big purpose of the Wall is to make targeting of Jewish civilians a thing of the past. Takes enormous amounts of Israeli taxpayer money, too.

IF things were only better, you bet the money would have built bridges, instead.

Posted by: Carol Herman at June 7, 2006 01:05 PM

Carol, why is it that you use my blog to promote whatever happens to be in your brain at any given time without regard to the topic of the main post? I'm not kicking you out of here, but perhaps you should get your own blog where it's more appropriate that you do that.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2006 01:59 PM

Michael,
I am not sure what the point of this post is. Is it that one group of Shiite murderous fanatics doesn't like one group of Sunni murderous fanatics?

Posted by: Dave at June 7, 2006 02:03 PM

Dave,

See ElMondoHummus, the first comment in the thread.

It was also an excuse to link Nouri without a mere Instapundit-like one-liner. He has a good blog and I've been meaning to link to him for a while now.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2006 02:06 PM

Michael,

Your interview sheds interesting light on the 'variance' which exists between different Islamist groups.

It is easy for the unobserved reader to group Hamas, al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and other Islamist groups in to one huge 'terror pot,' however your experience proves the complete opposite.

Many of my posts discuss the media's role (both Western and Eastern - al-Jazeera specifically) in shaping peoples' perspectives on the general situation in the Middle East. Al-Qaeda has certainly taken the spotlight and continually uses al-Jazeera as its conduit in airing its Jihadi videos as well as Osama Bin Laden/Ayman al-Zawahiri et al.'s words of wisdom.

Al-Qaeda has been extremely successful.

Unforunately this has a two fold consequence:

1) The uninformed observer is inclined to stereotype Muslims on the whole as uncompromising, violent, backward and archaic. Of course, this is certainly not the case.

2) The uninformed observer is probably more inclined to overlook the pertinent, intricate and delicate intra- and inter- state and non-state relationships.

There are degrees of fanaticism certainly. Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah have had quite a history and al-Qaeda is relatively new to the league. The trend is clear - the new groups on the scene are more violent and more extreme.

Unfortunately, the only group which the United States could potentially use as a buffer against extremism in the region is the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood (however that is certainly another topic of debate/discussion).

Your experience with Afif does not mean that one should side with Hezbollah of course (they've done their fair share of damage!) however it definitely brings to light the lack of homogeneity in the region - if its with regard to culture, language or even methods violence.

Posted by: The Egyptian Observer at June 7, 2006 02:33 PM

The Egyptian Observer says:

Unfortunately, the only group which the United States could potentially use as a buffer against extremism in the region is the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood

Ummmmm....I know I'm only an American, so perhaps I'm missing some of that famous Arab subtelty, but how can an extremist group act as a buffer against itself? I don't want to seem uncharitable, but this seems risible to me. Hamas, is, for all intents and purposes, the Brotherhood, if I am not mistaken.

Posted by: Ephraim at June 7, 2006 02:54 PM

Ephraim,

The Muslim Brotherhood cannot be equated directly to Hamas. Yes, they have provided funds to them when other Arab countries boycotted them etc., however they are different.

My source comes from a credible person within the Egyptian parliament who informed me that the MB has quite an eclectic personality - from those which believe that Western music should be banned to those which want to introduce liberal, secular values in to Egyptian society. One thing is certain, the MB DENOUNCES violence in its entirety and they are smart, organized and systematic enough to understand the consequences of using violent rhetoric. Like Hezbollah, the MB denounces al-Qaeda

Thus MB does not equal Hamas.

Whether the US will use the MB as a buffer against other extremist organizations in the region is a hot topic of debate. US foreign policy towards Egypt has been slightly tweaked over the last couple of months (in light of the debacle over the judges and Ayman Nour as well as all the maltreatment of protesters) but they remain ambivalent as to what could potentially occur to Egyptian society and the region if the MB rises to power.

On the one hand, maintaining Egypt's status-quo is attractive with Mubarak taking care of all the internal problems within the country 'his way.' On the other hand however, since the US was the protagonist in allowing multi-party 'free' elections, they need to carefully asses the consequences of the MB's rise to power (since the parliamentary elections proved they had a solid backing).

Thus, for the US to maintain any single-standardness in the region, they need to keep praising the spread of democracy but also be ready to accept the consequences. Thinking that the MB is a buffer against al-Qaeda is a possible reason to continue pushing for democracy in Egypt - only possible at this point.

Posted by: The Egyptian Observer at June 7, 2006 03:41 PM

Carol, why is it that you use my blog to promote whatever happens to be in your brain at any given time without regard to the topic of the main
post?
Posted by Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2006 01:59

Michael, at least she didn't mention "Arik" from "warrior".

Posted by: Brooklyn at June 7, 2006 04:14 PM

Because, Michael, there really are two sides.

Besides, why so much hostility to Arik Sharon? Yes. He was a driving force entering Lebanon. And, he tossed Arafat to Tunis when he did so. Then he discovered that gaining territory wasn't the wisest thing to do, even if you could shoot your tanks "all the way to Cairo."

If the Lebanese think there's an advantage to their hatred of Israelis,and they want to paint arrows so that when the IDF responds to a Hizballah activity (be it the men on motorcycles that ended without success). Or the recent shooting of a soldier in the back by a cross border sniper attack, the idea that you can tell Israelis to aim elsewhere is one of those ideas that should be met with some information about "the other side's views." While you can draw all the arrows you want; it's not about to make a difference in outcomes.

One difference, however, is that wars, when they are won, need peace. Not only doesn't peace show up for the Israelis; it isn't showing up for the Americans, in Iraq, either.

Of course, in Lebanon, OUT was better than any other arrangement. Just as the Wall is another way of solving the problems. There's a greater distance now between people because you don't grow trust when you draw arrows. The media has also lost a lot of audience. Sometimes, ya can wonder why.

Posted by: Carol Herman at June 7, 2006 04:45 PM

Ephraim,

I had a brief interview with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Make of it what you will.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2006 04:49 PM

Carol Herman: Because, Michael, there really are two sides.

Well, I'm pro-Israel and pro-Lebanon at the same time. I realize some people have a seriously hard time understanding how this is possible, but somehow the government of the United States has figured out how to pull this off too. I'm 99 percent certain this will continue when a Democrat is in the White House as well.

Besides, why so much hostility to Arik Sharon?

I didn't say anything hostile about "Arik" Sharon. I just don't want anyone using my blog comments to promote their favorite hobby horse regardless of the context and the content of what I write. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but it's my blog not yours.

When I first arrived in Lebanon some commenters screamed about the "Zionist Entity" in the comments section when I wasn't even thinking about Israel, let alone writing about it. That annoyed me as well, and it didn't stop until I banned the whole lot of them.

You're still arguing with me about what I wrote in May, and it's June 7 now. Enough.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2006 04:59 PM

Hummus Guy and Michael,

What's the point of the distinction? In the PR war at least (not for people on the ground).

In this case the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy. Correct me if I am wrong but HA and Syria are not exactly quieting things in Iraq (where Saddam was also a Shia enemy).

On the other hand is there propaganda value for the US to say Bush and HA are against the same guys? The Mideast is very nutty indeed. ;)

Posted by: JoseyWales at June 7, 2006 05:08 PM

Of course the Sunnis hate Hezbollah even if certain Sunni groups have and do ally with them. Even if they ally with them they think the Shiites and particularly Hezbollah are "garbage" and "cockroaches"..... just an example of two Fascist groups who hate each other.... but the left loves Hezbollah not only because they are anti-West and "fight" but because they represent the impoverished even in the Arab world, though of course that is likely due to their own impoverished mind, clan and thought process which the more secular parts of Lebanon do not suffer from.

Mike

Posted by: Mike Nargizian at June 7, 2006 05:53 PM

Of course, the question then pops up, if the Salafi Sunnis suddenly took a liking to the Shiites, would their extremist views suddenly become more palatable to the Shiites? I.e., As long as they direct their hatred at Jooos and Crusaders, well then maybe they're not so bad? The Muslim Brotherhood is anathema to all that a liberal democracy stands for. I loved that interview Michael. Is "fresh air" to be equated with being in power or simply being free? I suspect the former. What a bunch of phonies. They claim to stand for some sort of integrity but they sacrifice every shred of it with their willingness to lie to the "heathen" and treat him as second class ... or inhuman.

Posted by: Anon at June 7, 2006 09:54 PM

Carol,

Michael Totten is right. Would you please stop?! Enough, already! GET YOUR OWN BLOG.

I’ll go a step further than Michael and be a little blunter: Your prose is so obnoxious it makes me want to projectile vomit all over my computer screen. Your writing is a mush of hackneyed phrases and verbiage cobbled together to convey what is usually obvious to everybody (peace is better than war). You think your cutesy journalistic style is witty and delightful—but it’s not. It’s annoying and nauseating.

Michael is right—you need your own blog. But I suspect you also need attention, and you know you’d have no readers if you had your own blog. So, you use Michael’s blog and ignore his requests to cease your constant pontificating about whatever passes through your bird-brain at any given moment.

I say this as a necon American Zionist Jew, so my harshness has nothing to do with your support of Israel. I write this for all Lebanese and Israelis, Jews and Arabs and other human beings who would like to be spared your “Ladie’s Home Journal”-sounding soliloquies about the Middle East.

Zak

Posted by: semite1973 at June 7, 2006 10:11 PM

Unfortunately, the only group which the United States could potentially use as a buffer against extremism in the region is the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood

Problem is, you start playing the game of supporting the bad against the worse, and you come out looking bad yourself. But sometimes, you just gotta play the game to survive.

Is it just me, or is the Middle East a lot like 7th Grade with RPGs?

Here's another factor.

Posted by: Yafawi at June 7, 2006 11:31 PM

The USA gives billions to Egypt -- which is now feeding corruption and Mubarak's authoritarianism.

The US aid should be going as loans to help Egyptian businessmen, so they can hire more workers and cut the unemployment; plus going for home mortgages, with reports on bad Egyptian laws. Like the need for approvals on home improvements, which means many houses are "illegal", to avoid paying bribes to get the approvals.

Now for Tom Lehrer, whom this post reminded me of:
"There are people who do NOT love their fellow man, and I hate those kind of people ...

Oh the poor folk,
hate the rich folk,
and the rich folk,
hate the poor folk,
all of my folk hate all of your folk.
It's as American as apple pie.

... to hate all but the right folk,
is an old established rule.

The Catholics hate the Protestants,
and the Protestants hate the Catholics.
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during, National Brotherhood week...

Be nice to someone who
is inferior to you.
It's only for a week so have no fear.
Be thankful that it doesn't last all year!"

Posted by: Tom Grey - Libertay Dad at June 8, 2006 12:28 AM

I second semite1973.
I can't read Carol Herman's posts.
And I say this as a Politically centered - Jewish Israeli Argentinian living in Israel (if I am going to publicize my blog, then lets do it right).

Regarding your post, Michael, it is interesting, but there is not much to do. We cannot rely in Hezbollah against Zarqawi or viceversa.

Just think that there are obssesed lunatics in the far left that still accuse Israel of having 'created' Hamas for the support the group received from Israel in the seventies as a political counterweight to the PLO in the territories. (when Hamas was not yet a terrorist organization). We just need to hear that Israel is supporting Zarqawi against Hezbollah to have the full range conspiracy theory thrown at us.

Sadly, the issue is that two bad guys hate eachother, but hate us even more.

Posted by: Fabian at June 8, 2006 01:13 AM

I'm certainly no expert on the Muslim Brotherhood or the current Egyptian political issues, but I'd just have to think based off common sense that as the Muslim Brotherhood is the only political organization allowed to challenge the regime (albeit limited by Mubarak) it will attract numerous people who fundamentally disagree with the MB but are more opposed to Mubarak. Maybe they'll moderate the organization or maybe they'll have no real power, but I suspect you'll find a lot of diverging opinions because a lot of people supporting and running for the Muslim Brotherhood are doing so just because it's the only organization capable of challenging the current despotic regime.

Posted by: BishopMVP at June 8, 2006 01:32 AM

Sadly, the issue is that two bad guys hate eachother, but hate us even more.

Not just those two bad guys.

Posted by: Yafawi at June 8, 2006 03:47 AM

Carol Herman: If the Lebanese think there's an advantage to their hatred of Israelis,and they want to paint arrows so that when the IDF responds to a Hizballah activity (be it the men on motorcycles that ended without success).

You crit the English Language for 99,999 damage, The English Language dies.

Posted by: Kat at June 8, 2006 04:48 AM

This is the history of the middle east forever. As stated above, the issue isn't that the bad guys hate each other, it's that they hate Israel and the West more. It's good that they hate each other, as it prevents them from completely uniting. Do you think that if Israel disappeared tomorrow there'd be any kind of "peace" in the region? The different factions wouldn't have the Jews at hand to hate, so they'd just turn on each other and the killing would continue. As long as the various factions have their sense of grievance fanned by thier so-called leadership, this stuff will never stop. One man's opinion.

Posted by: Mike Doughty at June 8, 2006 05:51 AM

I have been fascinated reading all your ME posts, the comments, and the posts of Perpetual Refugee. But although everyone seems to agree that the best way forward is through dialogue, many of these posts and comments have made me more pessimistic than I used to be.

As an Israeli, I don't think I ever realized the full extent of the hatred of us in all Arab countries. Yes, we are told about how the Palestinians "educate" their children, but I never realized it was treason for a Lebanese to talk to an Israeli, for example.

I know people like to talk about the "hatred and distrust" on BOTH sides, but in Israel there is quite a strong peace movement, which is continually - and openly - trying to reach out to Palestinians and other Arabs. When the peace treaty was signed with Egypt, Israelis began flocking to Egypt, for tourism and to do business, but where was the reciprocity? Where is the peace movement in Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon?

I think if an Israeli wrote on some of these blogs about Arabs in the way that Perpetual Refugee writes about Israelis, everyone would be down on them like a ton of bricks, while everyone coos over PR's "sensitive and touching writing". Yet Israelis (as shown by many comments) don't need to go to Lebanon to see Lebanese as human beings that they would quite like to have peace with, to visit, to get to know. But if PR's thinking is typical, that's a long way away.

Posted by: ilana at June 8, 2006 08:59 AM

As I posted about and mentioned (citing Ali Salem) the war is the Mental State of War - The Cold War and it is covered up effectively using the "grievances" comparably small sore.... by Arab Gov'ts - Islamists - and the general Arab population in differing degrees even in Lebanon.

http://dailyscorecard.blogspot.com/2006/04/mental-state-of-war-moor-next-door.html

Ilana if Israelis don't get this by now... than there's pretty much nothing that will get it through their head.

The PLO can't won't even take off the propoganda to Elementary School kids on the TV and in their textbooks... "It would be an affront and insult our Arab pride!".

Posted by: Mike Nargizian at June 8, 2006 12:03 PM

Ilana, I think you're right.

I've been looking for years, and as far as I can tell there was a phony movement to take advantage of the Israeli peace movement, but absolutely no genuine peace movement among the Palestinians.

I do remember, long ago, listening to one Palestinian being interviewed, (I'm sorry I didn't note his name), who's father was killed for calling for peace with Israel. But if peace activists in Palestine are killed, where is the outrage against this in Palestine? Where is the support for such heroes? There is none!

And as for genuine peace activists among Arabs or Persians, I can name a couple, but no movement, and the only groundswell of feeling among the masses is a groundswell of fanatical hatred.

In short there are a few isolated people who are working to support peace. But no movement yet, and no sign that any percentage of ordinary people are willing to stand up and criticize the hatred.

Here is the web site of one such activist.
Hossein Derakhsha.

He's a real hero, in that he publicly went to Israel and now can not return to his home in Iran.

Ali Salem is another such hero, and Perpetual Refugee deserves to be mentioned.

Posted by: Josh Scholar at June 8, 2006 12:29 PM

Damn it! Michael must have a filter on that destroy's href links!

Damn it!

Ok the heroic Hossein Derakhsha's web site is here:
http://www.hoder.com/weblog

And Perpetual Refugee's web site is here:
http://perpetualrefugee.blogspot.com

Posted by: Josh Scholar at June 8, 2006 12:32 PM

The way I see it, whatever their brand of Islam, they ALL want to kill us. That's the bottom line. ALL of them regard us as infidels, dogs, apes, pigs, and monkeys. Their book of the dead teaches them to kill us if we won't join their hellish ideology. The Muslim Brotherhood has birthed CAIR and other terrorist organizations, of which Hamas (violence) is one. So, I've got no time for nuances and delightful subtleties. I'll start with the reality that regardless of stripe, they'd give us the choice to 'convert or die.' Then I'd take it from there.

Posted by: Helen at June 8, 2006 01:57 PM

The way I see it, whatever their brand of Islam, they ALL want to kill us. That's the bottom line. ALL of them regard us as infidels, dogs, apes, pigs, and monkeys.

You haven't the slightest idea what the hell you're talking about, Helen, and there's no point in arguing with you. Take it somewhere else.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 8, 2006 02:18 PM

"Carol, why is it that you use my blog to promote whatever happens to be in your brain at any given time without regard to the topic of the main post?"

Carol has been doing this on various blogs for the past 3 years. It's her MO. She won't stop just because you remonstrate with her.

Posted by: Yehudit at June 8, 2006 05:28 PM

Ilana & Josh, if you follow the sandmonkeys blog you'd know how arabs feel about israeli's - but more so: about jews (he's got this terribly funny story about his mom on this subject in his archives). If you see that many (the majority?) of Egyptians thought the mossad was behind the latest terror attacks in Dahab - it must be clear they live in a totally different concept of reality than we do. Reading Ihath's blog will also get you a clear cut picture of the roots embraided in the education most receive about us .... That's why internet is so bloody good, curving the institutionalized paths of interaction and reaching out and slowly, slowy (shwaya, shwaya) get to know each other, human beings recognizing their fellow human beings. Even if it's just one drop at a time :)

I don't think it's that easy to set up peace-movements in countries having a dictatorial regime anyway, even if someone would want to.

Tse.

Posted by: tsedek at June 8, 2006 08:13 PM

Tsedek, do you mean the SandMonkey's aunt who believes that Jews caused the tsunami?

I can't post the link because it's so long it would mess up the comment box, and I can't put in in an href link, because Michael's site filters those out.

So here's an excerpt:

You see, the jews were not happy about their current complete and total control of all arab governments (“Read the protocols of zion, it’s all there, mr. skeptic” she would tell you if you objected) and they wanted to kill muslims in non-arab Islamic countries as well. “That’s how wicked they are”, she would interject. They apparently decided to target Islamic Asian countries, and especially Indonesia, because it’s the largest one, and figured out that the best way to do it is using nuclear weapons. But afraid of the world turning against them, they decided to be all jew-like and sneaky about it, and blow the nuclear weapons deep under the ground, thus causing artificial earthquakes that kill thousands of Indonesian muslims and their neighbors. They have done that for years no apparently, and even though those earthquakes kill non-muslims as well, none of those dying are jews, which makes it fine by them. This has been going on since the early 1990’s, she would inform your ignorant ass.

The 2004 Tsunami was a turning point for them, she informed us, because it was the first time they 1) used more than 1 nuclear weapon in creating their earthquake and-I shit you not- 2) deployed their weather-control technology, to direct the waves to Islamic countries. The plan was a great success, as we all know, as is the main reason why the Bush administration jumps when the israli government says so. Apprently the USA is now terrified of Israel’s newfound technology, which will only mean “more defeat and humiliation” of arabs and muslims everywhere on the hands of America.

Yeah!

When she told us this at my Mother’s Birthday, I remember being incredibly silent for a minute, and then I asked her “Well, if the Jews rule the world, can cause earthquakes and control the weather, ehh, why do we bother worshiping god then? I mean, you make them all god-like, we might as well worship them instead, no?”

She, of course, called me an insolent young-know-nothing.

I looked at my mom, and I realized that she was silent on the whole thing and didn’t show an opinion. My mom’s aunt, another member of the “Jews-rule-the-world” book club, was quick to second what my aunt said as “the truth”. My mom’s other aunt was quick to join in by saying that she too has apparently heard it said from scientists, and since I am no scientist, that means that they are right and I am wrong. “Don’t mind him”, my aunt said, “they brainwashed him when he was in Boston. We all know and heard about that Jewish Harlot you used to date!”

“Which one?” I wanted to ask, but decided it wasn’t a smart move at this point.

Posted by: Josh Scholar at June 8, 2006 11:45 PM

Josh,

Href links do work here. See.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 8, 2006 11:51 PM

Yes, Josh :) Thx.

Posted by: tsedek at June 9, 2006 03:24 AM

Here it is.

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