Yes, mistakes galore were made--in planning and during the occupation.

But it's an unalloyed good that this insect was deposed and is on trial for his life.

When we first got to Abu Ghraib, the MPs had been at work for a month and a half making the place habitable for human beings. After 45 days, they hadn't even touched the execution building. I can't even describe it. Rumsfeld showed about about two weeks later to inspect the prison as a whole, and make sure it was up to our standards for a detention facility... He walked in to the execution building, came back out 30 seconds later, and ordered the place walled off until engineers could arrive to demolish it.

I heard the same refrain over and over again: “Persians are just like us.” In other words, they are liberal, secular, pro-Western, and fed up with tyrants. “Iranians love America,” the Kurds told me. “They have nothing to do with Ahmadinejad.”

I call this the fallacy of familiarity. This often happens when people travel to a new place - instinctively we seek out people like us, people who we can communicate with. There are a lot of secular, educated liberal pro-Western people in Iran, certainly far more than most Americans would guess. But that is far from the whole story. Ahmadinejad was elected in a relatively free election. Yes, he was elected more for his social program than his foreign policy. But there are a lot of poor uneducated Iranians who, while maybe not anti-American, are fiercely patriotic and will still listen to the mullahs. These people strongly resent the educated Westernized elites and to this day tend to side with the religious fanatics against the Westernizers. Ahmadinejad has been a genius at tapping into this resentment. As long as he can keep the Iranian working classes and professional classes at each others' throats the mullahs will be safe.

Vanya,

Every Iranian candidate who wasn't a deragned nutcase was banned by the Guardian Council from running for president. Don't get suckered into thinking that was a free election. It wasn't anything of the sort.

Every time I see an article like this, and I have seen several, I think of how ludicrous it is to call making a man wear women's underwear "torture"

I have concluded that those, including the many who sit in the senate and house, who make such comparisons are quite frankly on the side of our enemies.

I would echo most of the comments by previous posters.

Scenes like these make a mockery of the daily comparisons between Bush and Saddam.

Vanya,

Ahmadinejad was "freely elected" about like Saddam was "freely elected." The bulk of Iranians, seeing the election was rigged, boycotted them to the point that it became embarassing for the regime to be elected with such a tiny percentage of the electorate. They had to run in ringers to get their numbers up a little.

The "election" of Ahmadinejad was political theater by the mullahs to give some democratic cover to their tyrannical regime to the gullible. I see by your remarks that it worked.

Tantor

I think Vanya's point, though perhaps overstated, is that there is a constituency for the Iranian regime and to say otherwise is wishful thinking whether on our part or that of the Kurds. No, the election was not "fair" certainly not free but the mullahs are not paper tigers merely. And they will use all powers at their disposal to resist overthrow whether by domestic or external forces.

Hi Michael.

Two years ago, I produced the documentary film VOICES OF IRAQ, where we sent 150 DV cameras across Iraq and allowed Iraqis to film their own lives. The cameras got into the prison you visted and others. I viewed several hours of video and testimony detailing the horrors of Saddam's torture. One woman recalled tearfully how her newborn baby was fed to dogs infront of her eyes. Another video shows floors stained with blood and fat that liquified off torture victoms and poured onto the tiles below them.

What transpired in those chambers is beyond belief. It takes a strong stomach to go through the tours you're experiencing.

Martin Kunert

MJT, please give us whatever contact info there is for this museum.

Thanks again, Michael -- moving, powerful work.
Sparse; strong fotos.

I get so angry at the injustice; and so angry at those who, in opposition to Bush, think Saddam was "better for the Iraqi people."

Martin Kunert -- where can we see more of your testimony? Such torture is NOT beyond belief; but the lack of showing it makes US illegal abuse at Abu be declared the "moral equivalent."

If you read the book "See No Evil" Barzani was heavily involved in the oil smuggeling trade out of Iraq and into Turkey. According to this book, it is true that he was a leader of the Iraqi Kurds in 91' but, he also helped perpetuate Saddham's regeime by facilitating smuggeling.
I recall seeing on the news the Kurds up in the mountains in the cold and starving to death. The Americans covered the skies to prevent another genocide by the Baath. I recall being ashamed that Bush 1st did so little to help these people. I am sure that many Kurds died in the mountains over the winter. It is interesting to me that the Kurds still respect the U.S. I guess that any help in preventing complete genocide of a people is better than none.
I won't even go into what went on during the Clinton admin. This book is a must read...

Yes, Saddam's rape rooms. But the Americans make their prisoners wear fruit of the Looms on their head.

You are bearing witness, Michael. Great work.

Martin, I loved your documentary, Voices of Iraq.

I would also recommend Turtles Can Fly, a film about the Kurdish genocide, and Crimson Gold, a film about the despair of today's Iran.

These are the films of today that merit an Oscar for bravery, not the ones the feckless academy has nominated.

Martin,
I have also heard of your project but don't know where to see it. I would appreciate a link.

Redman,

You are correct about America's most bitter enemies in Congress. They have names like Boxer,
Durbin, Reid, Pelosi, Kennedy and other Liberal haters.

Michael,

We as the US may have made (and are continuing to make mistakes in Iraq), but how can we say that we have done no good here? I am a relatively new mom and the notes from the children just break my heart. The man and the regime were evil incarnate.

Ahmadinejad was indeed freely elected, but by whom? Like most of the 3rd world countries, majority of Iranians are uneducated peasants. Still a long way to go before democracy reaches Middle East.
Thank you Michael for the great work.

What is not mentioned here is that for years the crimes committed against the Kurds by the Iraqi government were carried out with the full knowledge and cooperation (and instruction) of the United States government and other 'Western' powers, which sold the Iraq government the weapons, nerve gas components, etc, used against the Kurds.

Saddam Hussein was created by the U.S., after all.

Lawrence,

Those are Soviet tanks in the photo above.

It's true that Saddam was a Western ally for a while during the Iran-Iraq war. But the vast majority of his weapons came from Russia and Germany.

Everyone should remember that Saddam was an ally of the USA during this time and the US government knew everything Saddam was doing.

Andrew: Everyone should remember that Saddam was an ally of the USA during this time and the US government knew everything Saddam was doing.

I agree.

Everyone should also remember who got rid of the bastard when most people wanted to leave him in place.

Thank you megapotamus. MJT and Tantor are both sadly indulging in wishful thinking. Naive American liberalism seems to be alive and well on this blog. I wish it were true that Iran was 90% pro-American secular liberals who somehow are held in thrall by a tiny group of fanatics. The reality is more like 10% pro-Amerian secularists opposed to the regime, 10% fanatics and 80% ordinary Iranians who may love Western consumer goods, may grumble about how corrupt the Mullahs are but figure they'll get screwed under any government. And the bad news is that that 80% is very proud of Iran's nuclear programme, even if they hate the Mullahs. (Hell, I have American Iranian friends whose fathers were jailed and killed by the Mullahs - even they are proud of Iran's nuclear programme.) Iranians are usually patriots first and ideologues second. Saddam found that out in 1980 when he expected the Iranian minority populations and anti-Mullah opposition to flock to his side after Iraq invaded. It never happened. That first 10% tends to speak English and know how to communicate with Westerners so foreigners tend to overestimate their influence.

As far as the electins, "Relatively free" is overstating it, but Iranians did have a choice, even if a bad choice. Comparing Iran's elections to Saddam is pure ignorance. The fact remains that the working class and the poor preferred Ahmidinejad over Rafsanjani. Iran is a country very much like Russia - it has a layer of beautiful intelligent people, some of the greatest people you'd ever want to meet. But it also has a large number of very resentful, bitter people who don't like change, don't like seeing their neighbors do better than them, and who will not shy away from violence. It's not an accident that the Mullahs have managed to hold on for 20 years despite delivering on none of their promises.

Oh how the MSM is manipulating the information we receive on all things "middle east". I find it very curious that in a region where literacy in well under 30%, every "demonstration" covered on the MSM newscasts are full of protest banners in perfect English. These people can't read or write in their own language yet know flawless English? And where to they keep coming up with those giant uncle Sam effigies? Is there a “protest store” in every Arab city? Do you think we’re being had by the MSM? Duh!

Lawrence, .46% of saddam's weapons came from america and .17% came from england. The vast majority came from France and Russia. It was a germany that created the plant for Saddam to make the gas. As far as America instructing genocide and creating Saddam, do you have any proof at all? Or are you just assuming that since something horrible happened the U.S. must be responsible.

Andrew and Lawrence, check your timelines and sources. Although the US provided some assistance to Iraq during the early 80's against Iran and had diplomatic relations with them up to 1991 that does not mean that the US was cooperating or instructing the Iraqis on the eradication of the Kurds. Anthrax (if that is what you are referring to) is often 'sold' to labs for use in developing farm programs for reasons including the development of control practices.

And stop with the all knowing all seeing US (or Western) government-plex. We often can't get out of our own way because we are so big and have so many different groups acting independently that we have little idea what all of them are doing.
As for leaving them starving in the mountains we flew in supplies as often as was manageable, we even accidently shot down 2 of our own helicopters that were delivering supplies because we mistook them for Iraqi Hinds. I know, I was there. We are from all knowing (and all deceiving...)

Andrew and Lawrence, check your timelines and sources. Although the US provided some assistance to Iraq during the early 80's against Iran and had diplomatic relations with them up to 1991 that does not mean that the US was cooperating or instructing the Iraqis on the eradication of the Kurds. Anthrax (if that is what you are referring to) is often 'sold' to labs for use in developing farm programs for reasons including the development of control practices.

And stop with the all knowing all seeing US (or Western) government-plex. We often can't get out of our own way because we are so big and have so many different groups acting independently that we have little idea what all of them are doing.
As for leaving them starving in the mountains we flew in supplies as often as was manageable, we even accidently shot down 2 of our own helicopters that were delivering supplies because we mistook them for Iraqi Hinds. I know, I was there. We are from all knowing (and all deceiving...)

This was a very moving entry, particularly the photos of the artwork and the last notes from the children. Thank you for bringing this experience to me in my safe, comfortable home.

DVD Voices of Iraq purchase
https://www.mavgear.com/detail.aspx?ID=957
Turtles Can Fly and Crimson Gold you can get at amazon.

"Saddam Hussein was created by the U.S., after all."

God, how I hate that feeble retort.

This is my country now. I can't help it that the last generation F'd some things up or had to make some tough choices based on the political reality of the times (i.e, soviet expansion).

Should I live in shame and never try to make things right because some sanctimonious prick is always ready to whine "but you did it tooooooo.."

Thank you Michael for the sacrifices you've made to bring us this info, or more properly, enligntenment.

To Andrew and Lawrence:

I recommend you two need to read Timmerman's book "The French Betrayal of America". His other work as ajournalist in France also reveals much about what we knew and did not know. More importantly, Timmerman details which Western countries did supply Saddam with weapons and technology, and you might see which countries had economic incentive to keep him in power despite decades of the Baathist minority tyrrany and human rights nightmares. Thank you for a great site.

Michael, kol ha kavod for bearing witness. It reminds me of my own thoughts and feelings when visiting the similarly-presented museum at the former Tuol Sleng/S-21 prison facility in Phnom Penh, Cambodia...

The images and stories that you present here serve the critical function of reminding us that any past or ongoing mistakes notwithstanding, the regime that was toppled was a truly ruthless one.

i do not care about the fact that the us had helped sadam or tolerated him
but i strongly disagree with the notion that 47% of the weapons came from the us
it is not true
what they got were a few surveillance aircrafts
the rest were german ( 80% of all wmd ressources were provided by the germans ) and the normal weaponery was russian
iraq used 10.000 russian armored vehicles .5000 russian made artillery pieces
ak-47. rgp s russian planes
with some french ibn the inventory and they cooperated with brazil
the us-helped us in the end and they are still there
that is the most important thing

Kurdo,

Mike claimed that 0.46 percent came from the U.S. That's less than half of one percent. I'm not sure if that's correct, but I know it's close from having studied this earlier.

Michael- Thank you!

That was so moving. Thank you for this reminder of the absolute evil of the Saddam regime.

Ignorant people and liars gloss over the fact that all major Iraqi weapons systems, including the precursers to Chemical Weapons used against Iran, came from either the Soviet Union, France and Germany. Check out the Stockholm Peace Institute website (http://www.sipri.org) for a complete breakdown of Iraqi Weapons purchases by country by year.

Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator who seized power after years of internal battles, and then retained power through the murder and intimidation of his enemies using his secret police and Baathist security apparatus. To say that he was a creation of the US is false. Why not say the murderers Fidel Castro, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung and Idi Amin are US creations? You can say it, but that still won't make it true.

Totten, I got the numbers from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. The Institute does sound dubious, but I had heard similar numbers before so I am guessing they are close or accurate. Don't forget Chirac and the nuclear plants.

Federation of American Scientist website details the Germans' lead role in building Iraq's Chemical Weapons infrastructure. Look here: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/az120103.html

Also check out the Center for Non-Prolif. Studies website for excellent cross-checks on European sourcing for Iraqi chemical and biological weapons here: http://cns.miis.edu/research/iraq/index.htm

Notably, Iraq's anthrax came from an agricultural lab at Iowa State University via Center for Disease Control and Dept. of Commerce!.

Kurdo

Look closely, it is .47%.

Vanya
Castro regularly receives 99% of the vote. There are stories about changing the ballot results to keep Stalin from exceeding 100%. Please don't believe all you read. The mullahs got exactly the guy they wanted.

Thanks, Michael, be nice if these stories ran in the MSM. Regards

Thank you for bearing witness, Michael.

Without such witness the deniers have won. In fact, even with witnesses and photos and video, they still battle the truth ... vigilance against the liars may seem wearisome, but it's the necessary price.

No amount of monday-morning-quarterbacking or finger pointing is going to change the horror that took place here and at many other torture chambers that Saddam & his sons had set up. I wish more stories like this would circulate to remind people of what a despicable human being Saddam was. I am not a republican nor did I vote for Bush, but it makes my blood boil when I hear people accuse Bush of being worse than Saddam or Hitler...Grow Up! American troops may be guilty of 'humiliating' prisoners and, while I do not condone it, I certainly do not equate humiliation with rape, torture, beheading, or the cold blooded murder of innocent children! Maybe I'm in the minority....

Thank you.

I enjoyed your Blog. God Bless America and Kurdistan

Iranians are NOT just like us.

If they were, they would not have "elected" Almadinnerjacket, nor allowed him to be "elected" for them.

Happy Talk

Babs,
You can rent Voices from Iraq, Turtles, from Netflix. Perhaps a lot of requests will move them to stock Jiyan as well.

I am kurd from Suli and live in the land of the vikings (Sweden)since 1982,I went back July 1991 after the first upprising and took my videocamera and went directly to that house , in 1989 My uncle was a english teacher and an active PUK member he was arrested and tortured for 9 month but never confesed and they relase him ,he was 48 year but weighted 37 kilos when they relased him.
Many of rape and torture actions was photoed and filmed by the arab bathist and most of that materilas is in USA.
What depresed me most when i was at that house was the cloths and underwear of the chilldrens and still have the video which remind me of that the arbs are not trustworthy and if the shia got the chance they will do the same thing as saddam,Its in the arab culture to kill innocent defenseless people look at south sudan,Israel,Kurdistan..Etc.
Thak you Mr Micheal for a good job.
Sorry for any grammatic mistakes,My english is not so well.

>>>46% of saddam's weapons came from america

A perfect example of the Big Lie. And it's repeated over and over and over again until it becomes a Leftist truth. Simply orwellian.

It's amusing to watch the America haters like Lawrence blame Hussein on the US.

No, he was not created by the US. He was created by the culture he lived in. Proof of that is the continued existence of fanatics in places we have nothing to do with...Syria, Sudan, Iran. We may have taken advantage of the situation but we did not 'create' them.

Such an idea is an impediment to reform, and it's racist. The racists, like Lawrence, think Middle Easterners are too stupid to invent genocidal ideologies and can only react to what is done to them by westerners.

Lawrence is part of the problem. Until Arab and Muslim haters like he is give up their bizzare cult beliefs, genuine reform will be impossible in both the west and in the Middle East.

So... are you thinking of collecting all of your Middle East articles into a book? Because it's all a perspective few, if any, have seen, and even if it ends up in the travel writing section people will seek it out.

Guyes if you are interested you could see more video and documents about this place in more than one university in USA! I heard that when peshmarga libirated North of Iraq ( Kurdistan ) from the Saddam army they siezed so many of them and then they transfered it into USA! I heard they weight " tons of Documents!
thank you very much Michael for your time and I do not know how to hit your tip jar otherwise i would be happy to hit!
god bless America and Kurdistan.

Suli was called by Saddam the TEL AVIV OF KURDISTAN so much did he hate the center of nationalism and progessive librty Sulaimani.

by the way Suli has the highest alcohol consumption in whole middle east, something for considerations by alcohol suppliers.

Terrific post, Michael. I'm always amused when antiwar commenters say "But we supported/created Saddam". Even if that were true, wouldn't that create an even greater obligation for us to remove him from power? It's like they can't help indulging their knee-jerk anti-Americanism even when it doesn't help their case.

The big myth (US was Saddam's ally).

-Iraq was a Soviet client state after the removal of the British supported monarchy. (Remember the cold war? Iran was on the US side until the fall of the Shah-and Iraq was hostile to Iran.)

The US considered the Iran-Iraq war a RED-ON-RED situation and did everything to balance it in order to wear both down (Remember Iran-Contra? Iraq was getting too strong at that point.)

Ground equipment under Saddam came from (in order of precedence) Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and South Africa (and some UK/US equipment captured from Iran and Kuwait).

Air Force came from Soviet Union, France, China and Italy.

Navy came from Soviet Union and (never delivered) Italy.

One item the US did provide in 1980 was from the Dept of Agriculture: A pesticide plant to improve farming. Do you know what the difference between bug spray and nerve gas is? Why do you think you should stay out of your apt after setting off a bug bomb?

PS: 22 years as an Intel Spec in USN, spent a third of my career in the region.

Just as I cringe to hear the "Yeah, but the US supplied Sadam weapons toooo....", I also cringe when I hear the post-facto spin of liberation moti vation by the Admin. Yes, it was an the evil dictator that we liberated the Iraqi (and Kurdish) people from, but that was not the reason US forces were deployed.

My opinion is that the citizens of the US would never, repeat NEVER, supported an invasion of Iraq to overthrow an evil dictator. Just look at Dafur, Sudan or any number of other genocidal wars, that public opinion... well ignores along with the Administration.

We were lied to by an Administration that cherry picked suspect intel, cooked up a preconcieved plan with propagandic lies relating it all to 9/11 and mushroom clouds over the US.

Let's be honest on all levels. And let us demand honesty, and real leadership, from our government .. and most importantly the Commander in Chief! Without the truth, our much vaulted democracy is a sham, a betrayal.

The role of the US as liberating angel was a post-facto spin when the truth about WMD's came home to roost.

Before we went into Iraq, the MSM told us that as much as the Iraqis hated Saddam, they would fight like maniacs to defend their country because they were patriots. Then when the war started, we saw video of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers simply walking away from the fighting.

Now the MSM is telling us that even though the Iranians hate the mullahs, they'll fight us like maniacs because they're patriots.

In other words, the MSM wants us to believe that Arabs and Persians are too stupid to know what's in their best interests, hate freedom, and will throw their lives away in the name of misplaced pride.

Baloney.

>>>The role of the US as liberating angel was a post-facto spin when the truth about WMD's came home to roost.

How can it be "post-facto spin" if Bush spoke of liberating the Iraqi people from Saddam BEFORE the actual invasion?

"And tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country, your enemy is ruling your country. And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation."

~~George W. Bush, January 29, 2003

and ps., love live the people of Iraq, love live the Iraqi Kurds! God bless America!

"And tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country, your enemy is ruling your country. And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation."

~~George W. Bush, January 29, 2003
Posted by: Carlos

***

Silly me, I guess all along it was about liberating the Iraqi people. Guess I need to catch up on my history...
could of sworn it had something to do with WMD's!

Honestly, I love the historical revisionist. They keep my blood pressure up and my heart pumping.

By the way, it seems that in the quote Bush was addressing his remarks to Iraqi's. This is very similar what all leaders say as an invasion take places. In effect its an effort to get the subject populace to yield without a fight.. typical stuff and you can find it throughout the historical record.

Such proclamations are not policy.
Talk about 'cherry picking' again!!

Tom,

Was it the sole or primary policy motivation? No. It wasn't. But you said it was post-facto spin, I proved you wrong.

Lawrence, are you intentionally mistating the facts or are you just ignorant? If it's the latter, perhaps you need to pick up a history book.
-Saddam was not "created" by the US, he achieved power in a military coup in the late 70's.
-He was never an agent of the US and the grand total of assistance we gave to him during the Iran/Iraq war was satellite photos of Iranian troop positions. Nothing more except a small amount of conventional weapons as noted above.
-The US NEVER, under any circumstances, provided chemical weapons or WMD components to Iraq. That's simply false and proveably so if you can get past your own idiocy and actually do some research.
-The rape rooms/torture rooms and evenst cited in Mr. Totten's fine article took place in 1991 when Lawrence implies the Saddam was a US ally. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here...but Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990, we booted him out in January 1991 which would make Saddam a most curious "ally" of the US. This ridiculous claim is right up there with John Kerry's claim that he went into Cambodia in 1968 under secret order of President Nixon...when Nixon didn't take office until 1969.

Very passionate site, you obviously feel strongly about the role of the United States in regards to the Bush doctrine which intends to "end tyranny" everywhere.

George Bush has no concern for the people of Iraq or the United States or he would do a better job of managing both. Due to his criminal negligence along with Rumsfeld he will leave a good portion of Iraq in chaos.

Why must we be guilted into justifying the invasion of Iraq?

Thank you for this blessing of a report. And some people wonder why we go where freedom is wanted? I echo the sentiments of President Ronald Reagan as we are fighting for the cause of freedom. The Granite Ridge is large enough and strong enough for all those who "must have freedom."

God Bless Our Soldiers!
God Bless The Cause of Freedom!
God Bless America!

Well Tom, the Administration expected that the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms - and that turned to be just as untrue as the "Iraq=American bloodbath" scenario. The truth ended up somewhere in between. I agree that most Iraqis like America or at least tolerate us, but there are more than enough Iraqis who hate us, and that is causing real problems which we did not adequately prepare for.
I assume the point of your post is that the US should invade Iran. But how do you claim to know what is in a given Iranian's best interest? If you're, say, a medical doctor and a woman, clearly you might welcome a US invasion. But let's say you're a mid-level Iranian manager in a state-owned business who got his job because the Mullahs chased out the competition. You may not be well educated but now you have an apartment and a car and you get to boss people around. Is democracy or privatization in your best interest? There are thousands and thousands of people like this in Iran.
Or let's say you're a small farmer - for the most part the Mullahs don't bother you in day to day life. Yes, taxation and corruption and petty officials stealing from you may make your life miserable, but those have been facts of life under every Iranian government for hundreds of years. You see everyday on the news that Iraq is a mess. It doesn't matter if that news is exagerrated, you don't know better. Do you think that Iranian farmer is going to be excited about the prospect of Iran becoming a second Iraq under US occupation? I agree that we need to do all we can to help the Iranian democracy movement, but we do ourselves no favors if we pretend Iran is a seething mass of pro-democracy activists under the thumb of a few crazy fanatics. Even in Russia TODAY 40% of the population think Stalin was a good guy. You think Iranians are that much more democratic than Russians? And honestly, life in Iran is a picnic compared to life under Saddam or Stalin.
I may be coming across too negatively, which is not how I feel at all. I'm actually very optimistic about the prospects for democracy in Iran over the medium term, and led by Iranians, not foreigners. I'm not convinced an American invasion at this point will help matters, I think it will only inspire our enemies and push the noncommitted to wrong side.

"Honestly, I love the historical revisionist. They keep my blood pressure up and my heart pumping."

Guess that’s why you folks love the “US sold weapons to Saddam” canard. Walk with me, back to 1987…

May 17, 1987, the Iraqis "accidentally" fired two Exocet missiles from French supplied Mirage F-1's into the guided-missile frigate USS Stark. The first missile penetrated the Stark's hull on the port side approximately 35 degrees off the bow and traveled 80 feet and exited the ship on the starboard side. Although this Exocet's warhead failed to detonate, the missile still did great damage. It spewed deadly burning propellant and ruptured the main system carrying water for firefighting crews.

The second Exocet struck eight feet from its sister missile and detonated three to five feet inside the hull, ripping a gaping hole in the side of the ship. Thirty-seven sailors were killed.

Americans killed by Iraqis flying French planes firing French missiles? Mon dieu! Obviously they didn’t look of the Made in the USA label while shopping for arms.

Vanya, trying to communicate with true believers is hopeless.

Saddam was a crazy old man in control of a rump of his backward, broke country, groaning under sanctions. He was no threat to the US.

Removing him benefited the people of Iraq for a short time at a terrible cost to both the Iraqi people and to the US.

In the long run, the US will have succeeded in facilitating the creation of another Islamic dictatorship because, duh, in the Middle East, democracy = Islam. Women will be veiled, screwed and shut up, and after a short while, the Sunnis & Shia will get around to killing each other. Oops, I think they already have. Fifteen hundred dead in the rest of Iraq in the last week, which Michael may not have heard of. Or perhaps up in Kurdistan they are laughing their guts out about it.

I once had a conversation with Vera Saeedpour who runs The Kurdish Library here in NYC. I asked her if it was true that the Kurds are pro-Israeli. This was during the high-water mark of open Israeli involvement in Iraqi Kurdistan, before the two fell out.

She looked at me the way an adult looks at a slightly addled kid and said, "The Kurds are fanatic Muslims. There is no way they could ever be pro-Israel." In other words, business is business.

People are just telling Michael what he wants to hear, or perhaps, what they want to hear themselves say because it's expedient and feels good.

Last but not least, I look forward to the day when Michael goes a-travelin' in China and reports from their prisons after the US has waged a war to free them.

Not likely in the near future, or ever.

Lawrence,

interesting also how all their choppers and jets are Russian, and they fire AK-47s, and used Russian T-72 tanks and Swedish artillery and French missiles. But America MADE Saddam!!!

And most funny of all is how they claim America provided Saddam with WMDs, but then they deny Saddam had any WMDs!!! Their logic boggles the mind.

I guess Rumsfeldt finally realized who it was he shook hands with back in 1983.

It's sad that we are reduced to arguing that our leaders are "not as bad" as Saddam.

Diana,

I don't care what some lady in NYC says, the Kurds are pro-Israel. Ask them yourself. Several of them are posting comments on my Web site right now.

If you think they're just telling me/us what I/we want to hear, show me the evidence. The fact that they're Muslims isn't evidence of anything all by itself. History, politics, and experience matter as well.

>>>I guess Rumsfeldt finally realized who it was he shook hands with back in 1983.

And Jimmy Carter gave Stingers to the mujahedin. Why? Because at the time, doing so was in our nation's best interest, and so was shaking Saddam's hand.

Bush(2nd term) and Amhadinejad were both elected by a citizenry awash in an ultra-nationalistic/religious zeal. Think about it. I am referning to MOST of the people who voted for these two. They both capitalized on a nations fear of being attacked (Bush used 9-11, Ahmad used US invasion of Iraq) and a religious fundamentalism.
Both sought out the low ground in appealing to their constituents. Fear and god.
It's striking how different we and the Muslim worlds seem to be, but in the end we are all humans, victims of a shared physchology.

>>>victims of a shared physchology.

Except religious people in the States don't chop your head off for drawing a picture of Jesus.

Methinks that "Andrew" and "Lawrence" is the same liberal buffoon.

As others have pointed out, Saddam was principally a client of the Soviets, with France and Germany a distant second and third place. Saddam's army used Soviet tanks, Soviet AK-47s, Soviet RPGs, and just about everything else Soviet (and don't forget the first Gulf War -- SCUD Missiles, anyone?). So this talk of the U.S. arming Saddam is absolute nonsense. If Saddam had any military technology from the U.S., he surely would have used it against us in both wars.

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that America "created" Saddam. Wouldn't that make our obligation to get rid of him an absolute moral imperative?

"dave" doesn't know what "ultra-nationalistic/religious zeal" really is.

Here's a clue, dave. I am college-educated, with a master's degree and a professional degree. I never go to church, never served in the military (Dad talked me out of the Navy - my loss), married a foreign lady, and lived happily abroad for several years. I voted for George Bush in 2004.

Does that make me an ultra-nationalist, religious zealot?

Let me offer you the benefit of my experience, dave: Everything you learned in college is b.s.; half of what you read in a newspaper isn't true; and co-eds won't sleep with you just because you took a class in gender studies.

To all who argue there is no comparison between Bush's waterboarding and killing children by Saddam think about what you're saying.

You're explicitly comparing your country to the "worst tyrant" as your own dear leader has called him numerous times. So in essence what you're saying is that our torture doesn't come even close to Saddam's. If that's the measure of your moral qualities as a country than nothing else needs to be said. You're torturers but admitedly not as bad as Saddam.

SW...i guess my capitalizing the word "MOST" still wasn't clear enough for you. If you're the typical Bush voter then continue on with you're mini-me Dennis Miller rant, otherwise chill out.
You never said why you voted for Bush. If it wasn't for my stated reasons...then what was it? I'm genuinely curious.

A little pic to help those who are concret thinkers. A graph to show how the big bad USA armed Saddam. Data taken from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

http://www.mediaright.ca/pics/armssales.jpg

dave:

My reasons were complex, and often nuanced, but here are the top few reasons:

- The Islamists would have taken a Bush defeat as a sign that Americans don't have the stomach for a fight. See bin Laden's comments on Mogadish for why that would have been a bad thing.

- My experience abroad taught me that people really do count on the U.S.A. to support the aspirations of those who are struggling against tyranny. I used to think that Reagan was evil, blah-blah-blah, until I met a number of folks in post-communist Eastern Europe who credited him for their newfound freedom.

- Kerry was a patent serial fabulist. See Christmas in Cambodia.

- Kerry had no idea what he stood for. Bush did.

- The people in the fight are overwhelmingly pro-Bush.

- I believe in free trade.

- I think that 9/11 was, in part, blowback for our failures to follow through in Iraq and Afghanistan in the early 90s, and that we have a moral obligation to make the sacrifices to set things right if we can.

- Apologizing for who we are is not going to bring peace with the Islamists. See Munich, 1938.

It's funny how, in the liberal mindset, taking national security seriously is equivalent to "succumbing to fear." I can only suppose that these same liberals never lock their doors at night.

This shows every reason why wee need to be there. If we leave, the torture will come back, then it will be at our doorstep once again. We must continue this until it is finished.

We must also educate our people so they know about the evil that seemingly ordinary men can possess.

Just because they dress in nice suits and pat little kids on the head does not make them any more the better.

>>>It's funny how, in the liberal mindset, taking national security seriously is equivalent to "succumbing to fear." I can only suppose that these same liberals never lock their doors at night.

What does a "liberal mindset" have to do with anything?
Surely you're not denying that Bush played the fear card during the election...just like dems like to play it with SSecurity, etc etc.

Thank you for this reminder. How easy it is to forget the stark reality that was Saddam Hussein. A Museum of Memories entombed. thanks for sharing it with the world!

With all due respect to the opinions of Diana and other anti-Bush posters here, why don't you listen and honor the words of the Kurds themselves? They are posting their comments here!

Or is it because you think you know better than they do.

SW...

i see your points, but still have questions. How does 9-11 come about out of not following through in iraq and afgh in the early 90s? Are you saying if we had invaded iraq and afghanistan after GWar I 9-11 would not have happened? That would have given al queda 100 more reasons to blow us up, instead of the 50 they already had(I'm not legitimizing the reasons). They reason that they didn't liuke our bases in Saudi Arabia(bs or not). We would have had bases alll throughout the Middle east if we would have followed through, as you say.
All this is pointless, though becasue they give political reasons why they do terrorosts acts, when as much of it is out of religious whackiness.

Also, so what if the Islamists would have taken a Kerry election as a retreat. That doesn't make it so. Tactics may have changed but Kerry would in no way have "backed down" from these people.
Keep in mind...Kerry was about the 5th guy i would have voted for out of all the Dems in the primaries, fwiw.

"The people in the Fight" are also being told that Saddam played part 9-11 and had LEGITIMATE connections to al-queda. See the Zogby poll that just came out.

Kerry knows what he stands for...he just didn't want the american people to know what he stood for, becasue he's far-left and, (i'll use your words, so don't roll your eyes ;)) he was more nuanced in his appraoch than Bush, whose Rah Rah Fight Fight Evildoer Evildoer soundbites worked well in the political sphere of an election.

I was relunctantly supported the invasion, but i always said...if you are going to invade an Islamic country for stated reasons you better damn well find teh WMDs and you better damn well have your sh** together before you do. Bush was so eager to go...so he could use it as a politcal tool in the '02 midterms and for other reason, that no alternate plans seemingly were discussed. And Rumsfeld...good lord, Rumsfeld.

I am just reading through this blog for the first time, and I like it very much. I got here from the ITM blog. Thanks for some good content. I do take it with a grain of salt though.

The way that some of you have demonized the liberal side of Americans and US congressmen and women -- and written them off as evil -- ON A SITE ABOUT IRAQ, not the US, speaks volumes about your own fear. You live for fear.

I'm a patriot just as much as you. I'm American, and I am proud of my country. However, I would not EVER want to associate myself with such ignorance and name calling and misinformation.

I live in a country that can send a space probe to Pluto and can map the entire universe, microwave background noise leftover from the Big Bang. Of course we should know better by now, how to be a better world-wide super power. I and other liberals (including elected congressmen and women) are not saying Bush is Saddam. That would be silly and ignorant, IMO.

Ignorance/uninformed is not the trait known to be rampant in the liberal world. ;)

"Except religious people in the States don't chop your head off for drawing a picture of Jesus."

No, they won't...but they'll pass laws making Christianity the "official state religion", recognizing it and protecting it as such. See teh story out of Missouri...sign up required.

http://www.kmov.com/sharedcontent/registration/register.jsp?fw=http://www.kmov.com/topstories/stories/030206ccklrKmovreligionbill.7d361c3f.html

Luke 12:48 -- "From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded."

I am not particularily religious (agnostic deist), but this quote came to mind while reading these comments. Much has been given to those of us who live in US. (Our forefathers may have sacrificed to give us what we have, but, honestly, most of us did nothing other than being born here.) Perhaps we should be grateful and willing to sacrifice a little (many of our brave soldiers have sacrificed much, but, again, most of us have not sacrified a thing) to help others in the world obtain a better life, freedom & hope for the future - which, by the way (if you believe in only helping yourself and not others) will make the world a better and safer place for us and our children in the long run.

Even if we "created" Saddam, which I don't think we did, is that a reason not to help the poeple of Iraq get rid of him? And if we did "create" Saddam, would we not have an obligation to subsequently destroy the monster we created?

"Ignorance/uninformed is not the trait known to be rampant in the liberal world. ;)"

Excuse me while I pick my jaw off the floor at this doozy.

Anyhoo...As usual, a moving and incredible post, Michael. Tears come to my eyes at the pain and suffering of the children, women, and men who were tortured and murdered by Saddam...and by all those being oppressed and killed today in Darfur and other places in the world. I wish we could save them all.

You're torturers but admitedly not as bad as Saddam.

Perhaps. But we torture (waterboard) islamic fascists jihadis, while Saddam tortured regular folks. And that makes all the difference in the world.

they'll pass laws making Christianity the "official state religion",

No they won't. People have stopped paying attention to such Leftwing hyperbole. And if people want to place restrictions on abortion, seems like it's their democratic right to do so. If you don't like it, move to a blue state. That's your democratic right too.

The words of the children are truly haunting. How anybody can follow that by parroting the Bushitler talking points is beyond my understanding. It's almost as if there is fear that if you acknowledge that stopping the horror was a good thing somebody might think you're a gun toting, warmongering Bushie.

Carlos, you crazy nut you - let's all point out one more time....

He said POINT 46%, not 46%. DECIMAL 46%. Less than one half of a percent.

You're fighting with a guy who said the US supplied Saddam Hussein with .46%, not 46%, of his arms.

"Ignorance/uninformed is not the trait known to be rampant in the liberal world.

And yet you Lib braniacs really believe we "made" Saddam. Interesting!

Mike#3or4: SIPRI is a well respected organization -- certainly was when I was in the military, and has been around for many years. Their figures would probably be about as accurate as anyone could get from an open source.

The reality is more like 10% pro-Amerian secularists opposed to the regime, 10% fanatics and 80% ordinary Iranians who may love Western consumer goods, may grumble about how corrupt the Mullahs are but figure they'll get screwed under any government.

Well put. I think the percentage of secularists might be a bit higher than that, but my guess is that it's still below 20%. Most Iranians, as you note, are religious and nationalistic, and care more about economic issues than anything else. As long as the mullahs can buy their support with oil money, they don't have much to worry about in the short-term (15-20 years from now may be a different story). A Islamic populist and war veteran like Ahmedinejad is right up their alley. And with regards to the elections, there was a reformist in the Khatami mold (Mostafa Moin) who was allowed to run, but he didn't even make it to the final runoff.

I think part of the reason why Kurds identify with Persians is that they're both Indo-European peoples, and have a history of looking down on the Semitic Arabs as culturally backwards. Also, Iran has a long history of supporting the Kurds against Saddam.

I have a problem with the tone of some of the posts in response to the pictures Michael has at some risk brought back to us.

Whether "Bush lied and people died" or "No WMD, thus it was all a stupid waste of time" or any of the other talking points from the Left, is beside the point to me. I am proud of of warriors for stopping what is pictured in this photo essay. I am proud of our warriors for building schools and roads. I am proud of our warriors for crying when an Iraqi child is murdered by an IED meant for them. I am proud of our warriors for crying when they kill someone they should not have.

Throughout the Cold War, I was ashamed that we supported evil bastards like Saddam. I was ashamed that we left the Kurds high and dry multiple times over the years. When the Wall fell, I prayed that we could start living our morals instead of mouthing them. When I realized what Saddam was doing to his people, I wanted him gone. I do not care what the reason Bush gave for going there. I am proud that the musuem that Michael showed us is just that, a musuem. This killing factory and hundreds like it were in full swing throughout Saddam's rule. They are now museums or scrubbed from the face of the Earth. Saying that containing evil like this is a good idea is insane to me.

I am now absolutely convinced that the Iraqi War was a good idea.

I am convinced of that because of... Georgia.

Yeah, Georgia. The Civil War. Sherman's March to the Sea. The South had to surrender when Confederacy was split. Liberating Iraq was a strategic neccessity to separate Iran and Syria. We can talk all night about what might have been. The facts remain that Iran, Iraq and Syria WANTED weapons of mass destruction. They cannot easily get them now with us on their doorstep.

We are stuck with what IS. Lebanon is relatively free. Syria is in so much turmoil that they cannot use whatever Saddam gave them in the waning days of his rule. Iran looks like it can do some major damage, but I doubt it. The Middle East has been a cesspool for 60 years. Are things better now than before the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq? If you say they are worse, I doubt your sanity.

Leftists in this country seem to be saying, "I am kinda proud that we might have closed down a small number of killing factories like the one in these picture, BUT blah, blah, blah." Why does the pride in what we have accomplished have to be so lukewarm, so tentative? Why must Leftists when confronted with the evil shown in these pictures struggle to find some reason not to say, "America did a good thing. I proud of my country for doing this."? When I hear quibbling like the posts in this thread, I want to scream, "Have you lost your mind? How can anyone look at these pictures and try to find a reason for not stopping a killing factory like this?"

The biggest threat to our country right now is nation states willing to create WMD to give to terrorists. Al Quaeda and all its evil siblings can do some damage, but it takes a willing nation state to create biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. By destroying Afghanistan and Iraq, we have served notice to every nation state on Earth that they could be on our list of targets, if they produce a WMD that takes out a huge number of our citizens. The Left, like the disarmament movement of the 1930's, is filled with True Belivers. They honestly believe that men like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden can be appeased. Appeasement is not an option.

We are in a war that will span 30-50 years. The pictures that have appeared in this post define what we are fighting. How can anyone attempt to say that we should not have stopped the actions that they describe from happening to anyone?

I was relunctantly supported the invasion, but i always said...if you are going to invade an Islamic country for stated reasons you better damn well find teh WMDs and you better damn well have your sh** together before you do.

Boy, if I didn't know better, I'd think this was written by one of them there ignant red state Jesuslanders what don't much cotton to that fancy book learnin'.

True. A "leader" as committed to using violence as Bush/Cheney cannot realistically be appeased, especially since they believe themselves to be invulnerable. It will be a long and hard campaign by the nations of the World to reduce the Axis of Evil to its senses. I wish them luck!

Wow, a very moving posting, Michael. Thank you for getting these pictures out where more can see them. It's also been extremely interesting reading all the comments, and I have to add my three cents (inflation, you know). So many people have claimed various things about Iraq that are demonstrably wrong, and while I can't counter everything, I do want to make a few points. First, a quote from financier Bernard M. Baruch: "Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts." Much of what we see from the media, just like many of the talking points of the Democratic politicians, have been said so often and so loudly that people who should know better have started to believe them. It's the same "big lie" technique the Soviets used so often and so well.

I can't count how many times I've heard people say that Pres. Bush said Iraq was an imminent threat to America. What he said, in the January 2003 State of the Union address, was: "Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come to late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

The next lie is people saying Pres. Bush claimed that Saddam Hussein collaborated with Osama bin Laden in the planning and execution of the September 11, 2001 attacks. Pres. Bush never claimed that Saddam collaborated in the Sept. 11 attacks. However, the evidence is clear that there were continuing interactions between al Qaeda and Saddam's Iraq. A few examples: Malaysian intelligence photographed Iraqi intelligence agent Ahmed Hikmat Shakir at meetings with al Qaeda members as they planned the USS Cole and Sept. 11 attacks. Sudanese intelligence observed several meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and Osama bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum. In an November 21, 2004 article in the Weekly Standard, not exactly a right-wing Bush supporter, Stephen Hayes wrote "In Sudan, bin Laden decided to acquire and, when possible, use chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN) weapons against Islam's enemies. Bin Laden's first moves in this direction were made in cooperation with NIF (Sudan's National Islamic Front), Iraq's intelligence service, and Iraqi CBRN scientists and technicians. He made contact with Baghdad with its intelligence officers in Sudan and by a (Hassan al-)Turabi-brokered June 1994 wisit by Iraq's then intelligence chief Faruq al-Hijazi responsible for 'nurturing Iraq's ties to (Islamic) fundamentalists warriors. Turabi had plans to formulate a 'common strategy' with bin Laden and Iraq for subverting pro-U. S. Arab regimes, but the meeting was a get-acquainted session where al-Hijazi and bin Laden developed a good rapport that would flourish in the late 1990s." Le Monde reported on July 9, 2005, that Ansar al-Islam "was founded in 2001 with the joint help of Saddam Hussein--who intended to us it against moderate Durds--and al Qaeda, which hoped to find in Kurdistan a new location that would receive its members." An Iraqi defector to Turkey told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw al Qaeda fighters training in camps in Iraq in 1997. In the training camp at Salman Pak they had a complete Boeing 707 airliner and practiced hijacking planes with knives. The camp manager told him "You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK (a Muslim terror group active in Turkey) and Mojahedin-e Khalq (a Muslim terror group active in Pakistan).

As for WMDs, they WERE found in Iraq, and more than once roadside bombs (IED) containing chemical weapon artillery shells were detonated when U. S. troops were near enough to require the troops be decontaminated. In the zone of Iraq that was under Polish military control the Poles found out about (and purchased on the black market for $5,000 each) seventeen chemical weapon warheads. Chemical analysis found cyclosarin, a nerve agent five times more deadly than sarin. U. S. troops took control of a warehouse in Mosul, Iraq on August 8, 2005 and found 1,500 gallons of chemical agents.

I could go on, but there is no need. The facts bear out that almost all of the reasons Pres. Bush gave for invading Iraq were true, demonstrably true. Not "spin," nor "propaganda," but factual truth. Of course we'll never hear the liberals, Democratic politicians and news media report these facts, because they conflict with the carefully constructed body of lies they use against Pres. Bush and the invasion of Iraq. Go back to the top of my comment and read again what Bernard Baruch said, then think about who is telling the truth and who lied.

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To all of you on this post saying that the U.S. was not supporting the Iraqis in the 1980's, its fact the that U.S. was supporting Iraq with its war with Iran not only financially, but also training some Iraqi special forces and providing them with a variety of different weapons. The Kurds were back by Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, this opened up a new front in the war against Iraq. The U.S was supporting Iraq during this time and this same support is what killed thousands of Kurds. I know it because I was there, I served in the Iraqi army during that war, well I was drafted in. I am Iraq I speak Arabic, where do you think I learned this English from? I was there and we were trained by the U.S, and it was with there support that Iraq finally got some control on the Kurds in the north.
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Habibi,

nobody has said the U.S. never supported Saddam. We most certainly used him against the Iranians. What we have said is that U.S. support of Saddam was MINISCULE (that means small and inconsequential) compared to the support provided him by nations such as Russia, France, Germany. Not surprisingly, it is those nations who were against ousting Saddam! He was their biggest customer. It was THEY who "made" Saddam.

I am a Kurd, I am pro-Israeli. I admire there struggle for independence from these Arabs. Look at the Middle East, look at North Africa. What happened, were all these people Arabs. No what Arabs did to the middle east, and north Africa is the reason that that region of the world is like that today. They forced there language, religion and there culture on everyone they could. Look at North Africa and countries in the Middle East they all fell to this disease arabazation. They only people that stood there grounds were Israelis and Kurds. I lost more than 15 members of my family, because they would not say that there Arabs. There is a saying in Kurdistan; before they put me to the firing squad I will yell that I am Kurdish and Kurdish and Kurdish and Kurdish to the marrow of my bones. With the spread of Islam, lands that were not Arab became arabanized by force. Arabs came from the desert the land of camels and sand and arabanized the whole region. And now to the question if Kurds are pro-Israeli, we are 200% pro-Israel and you know why, because they are standing for there rights. There are 21 Arab nations, but it’s a crime for one nation to be Israeli.

God bless Kurdistan!
God bless Israel!
God bless America!

Totten, your comments are out of control (what up lebanon:)

Carlos, fuck you. Go back to my comment take a good hard look at what I said. point 4-6 you fucking moron. fuck you. Have you ever even read anything by Orwell?

This is a blog swarm, eh? (what up canada:)

Aaaarrgggghhhhhh?!?!?

P.S.: fuck you Carlos.

If only it had been typed correctly in the first place: 0.46%

Lesson for the day: Always, always place a "0" before the decimal if the number is less 1.

Class dismissed.

Clark, regarding your points...I'm curious why our eloquent statesmen GW doesn't enunciate said facts. Maybe becasue they are hogwash?
Making an IED out of a 20 yr old, dug up chemical warhead that is .05% it's initial toxicity doesn't qualify as "reconstituted chemical weapons" in my book. Maybe it does in yours.

Blind, you make good characterizations about the Arab culture.

And Carlos...i guess you didn't read the article. That's unfortunate. Maybe you should try this one...
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060303/NEWS0101/603030397/1008/NEWS01

To Habibi
So you were one of the many iraqi army cowards who killed thousnads of innocent women and children,you and your army could not fighet like a gentelmen and when the americans came your army fledd ,But i dont blame you your education and belive is coming from your prohpet and Quran,the culture of decive and hepocrasy,Your mohammed using gods name for his political ambitions, he was a lier,maskiller and pedophile and that is why the arabs can not live togethers among nations.

>>>Carlos, fuck you. Go back to my comment take a good hard look at what I said.

I already did last night, and I realized you put a point before the 46. So go ahead and keep cursing me over and over again if it makes you feel better.

Notably, Iraq's anthrax came from an agricultural lab at Iowa State University via Center for Disease Control and Dept. of Commerce!.

Yes - athat lab was a major source of anthrax spores for people worldwide, who could purchase them for research purposes with few questions asked as long as they were from recognized institutions (like an agricultural university).

Anthrax is, after all, a not-unknown livestock disease and there are (unlike, say, smallpox) legitimate active research uses for it.

The naivete seems stunning when we look back on it, but was largely unremarked at the time.

Thank you for this story! It needs the light of day - for those who believe the truth will set you free. I agree: God bless Kurdistan, God bless Israel, God bless America, God bless the Danish and God bless all believers and fighters for truth and freedom from tyranny.

i drive a cab in the winter in Ann Arbor Michigan home of the University of Michigan. Its where Juan Cole (not a doctor to me) "earns" his money.

the kids that go nhere are usually too rich or drunk to be concerned with any little mud people from whereverstan. They have been inculcated to believe that since "white people" exist an control everything, that their sole purpose in life is to move their own tribe (hindi, black, jewish,korean, chinese,japanese,muslim etc..)forward and f the rest.

the night clubs are completely selfsegregated, but its okay because whitey makes them do it.

I, of course, have to explain to them that more "white" blood has been shed in the defense of their freedom than their own.

maybe that's not the nicest way to put it, but you get tired real fast wioth the crass "youre a loser!!" jock culture that underpins so much of their "reasoning".

its amazing too, that the most f'd over ethnic groups are the most racist. everheards a vanload of jewish soros going on about "the others"? Its very sad but I have to shut up and fight poverty (mine!)first.

things are changing though and kids are finally standing up to the hacks and there's a new boatload of swasia vets showing up that give them hell.

stay strong lightbearers!!

US Diplomatic and Commercial Relationships with Iraq, 1980 - 2 August 1990

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html

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I'd think that it would be too much of a period Soviet thing, or a little too reflexive, but it's real and like 26,000 square feet of repurposed immoral hygiene outlet, with impossibly neat commercial framed pictures and art in hard-won clean lime.

Gonna make a little javascript one to help me quit the vile imperfections I get hit with every morning. (Plus, it rains where I live and it's spring 3 months early for various reasons, so it can't help but see good outcomes at first.) Eventually, I might not have to truck the bodies out to the desert anymore (heh heh. Not even need the mass transit I gotta set up, not for corpses.)

Happy gardening and coping with the heat and desert, getting us US-style flamers to know how all that goes; the better to advertise a decent outcome and worry less about who billed for hardware.

The Kurds suffered terribly under Saddam Hussein. No question.

However, I shed no tears.

I am Aramean/Armenian. The Kurds are butchers. They tore foetuses out of pregnant Christian Aramean/Armenian women as they forceably removed us from our homes. They were ruthless.

The Kurdish people have never had a nation. They have always been a nomadic people. The principles of pillage and loot they learnt to a tea from their prophet.

Right now, they are milking the West for sympathy knowing full well Western ignorance of their brutality.

Torture? I find it hard to empathise with the Kurds. Sorry. I shed no tears.

The Kurds suffered terribly under Saddam Hussein. No question.

However, I shed no tears.

I am Aramean/Armenian. The Kurds are butchers. They tore foetuses out of pregnant Christian Aramean/Armenian women as they forceably removed us from our homes. They were ruthless.

The Kurdish people have never had a nation. They have always been a nomadic people. The principles of pillage and loot they learnt to a tea from their prophet.

Right now, they are milking the West for sympathy knowing full well Western ignorance of their brutality.

Torture? I find it hard to empathise with the Kurds. Sorry. I shed no tears.

The Kurds suffered terribly under Saddam Hussein. No question.

However, I shed no tears.

I am Aramean/Armenian. The Kurds are butchers. They tore foetuses out of pregnant Christian Aramean/Armenian women as they forceably removed us from our homes. They were ruthless.

The Kurdish people have never had a nation. They have always been a nomadic people. The principles of pillage and loot they learnt to a tea from their prophet.

Right now, they are milking the West for sympathy knowing full well Western ignorance of their brutality.

Torture? I find it hard to empathise with the Kurds. Sorry. I shed no tears.

Sorry I posted my comment thrice. :(

Carlos, I am not going to swear at you, but if you read my last two posts it is pretty clear that I was full of booze.

Manny C, are you in C.A.? If you are, why don't you have sympathy for Kurds today, not the 30's, but today? I would expect someone (or someone they were related to at one point) who had suffered through the forgotten genocide [lets add asia at the mercy of japan to that list also] to have some sympathy for people who are being killed in the present.

Manny C,

If Russia decided to commit genocide in Germany tomorrow, should Jews feel bad? I would think so.

The Kurds of 80 years ago are dead, as are people from 80 years ago anywhere in the world.

Dear Manny C,
I am a Kurdish guy and read the agression in you words. It was not Kurdish act what happend to Armenien. It was a genosid thought, planned, supported and executed by Turks. As a Kurd I am ashame for every Kurd participating in that brutal act. But Dear Manny we Kurds are proud of our quiet and long history that teached us one thing:
living in our home and celebrate the life in peace, with love as Jesus says.

We Kurds are NOT you enemies.

Best regards

However, I shed no tears.

Manny or what ever your armenian name is,Why dont tell the truth about the armenian genocide?or the the armenian are still afraid of the turks,You know damn well that your people togehter with the russian army began to slaughter kurdish villagers in north kurdistan before the TURKISH ARMY began to revenge from your people and genocide them.
Regarding the kurds as nation i urge you to read about the greek historian who wrote about the greek army leader XENOPHON who was in the kurdish mountaines 700BC.
What happend to the armenianes was genocide ,but if the kurds were responsible for that then i belive the turks will be glad to open the archive and let the whole world to konw about that.But you know the turks do not want to open the archive becuase they are responsible and it will be demand for compensation from the armenian.
I dont belive the jews today call all germans for butchers and blame them what the others did for 60 years ago,wake up.

Dear Manny C,
I am a Kurdish guy and read the agression in you words. It was not Kurdish act what happend to Armenien. It was a genosid thought, planned, supported and executed by Turks. As a Kurd I am ashame for every Kurd participating in that brutal act. But Dear Manny we Kurds are proud of our quiet and long history that teached us one thing:
living in our home and celebrate the life in peace, with love as Jesus says.

We Kurds are NOT you enemies.

Best regards

dave:

How does 9-11 come about out of not following through in iraq and afgh in the early 90s?

In part, our failure to follow through in Iraq - by leaving Saddam wounded but in power -- fed the general Arab conspiracy theory that the United States was not interested in freedom for the Arabs, but only in propping up corrupt dictators. Bin Laden predicted that the U.S. would never leave Saudi once allowed to establish bases, there, and our failure to finish the job in '91 fed into this view and gave bin Laden credibility that he didn't deserve.

The connection between our failure to follow through in Afghanistan and 9/11 should be obvious to anyone, but since you asked I'll spell it out: Afghanistan became the worst nightmare of a failed state, creating a safe haven and providing base of strategic planning, training, and tactical operations for al Qaida.

Your reference to the Zogby poll is unpersuasive. Everyone connected with the military in Iraq says that it's results are bogus, and the overwhelming majority of soldiers, Marines, and officers who have served in Iraq say that we have to stay in the country as long as it takes. Reenlistments are at least six percent above projections for personnel who have served in Iraq. You wouldn't expect such high figures if the people serving there thought that the enterprise was worthless.

It appears that some posters have lost site of the issue: THE TORTURE OF INNOCENT PEOPLE!
As mentioned in my previous post, no amount of finger pointing or partisan politics is going to change what has happened in Iraq. Why don't you channel that energy into making sure that this never happens again in Iraq or elsewhere! I am sure the people of Sudan would thank you considering that Democrats nor Republicans in the US seem to give a DAMN about it. You are so wrapped up in partisan politics that you do not care about what is important, only pointing the finger at the other side!
Also, to the posters that are pointing the finger at Islam being a brutal religion...gee I seem to recall the brutality of all religions throughout history-ESPECIALLY Christianity-so don't try to play that card, either!

At least, there is someone who thinks in the same way as I do... D Haynes is right, we have to think about people who are suffering while we speak unsuccessfuly, of course about who is guilty.
We can say that Saddam commited torture and even genocide, and that was a good thing to stop him. But was it done in the right way. Since the US army invaded Irak nobody can say they are free in this country people are killed in bomb attacks, or taken as hostages... and prisoners who are not judged would it do any difference if they were are supposed to be tortured by American soldiers.

And what about the situation in Nepal, Tibet, Colombia, and all the countries where torture is an everyday thing? Why nobody cares about the poor people who have to live I should say 'die' under the law of dictators? Is it because their country does not have any oil or gold? Or may the dictators are too powerful?

What follows is an accurate chronology of United States involvement in the arming of Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war 1980-88. It is a powerful indictment of the president Bush administration attempt to sell war as a component of his war on terrorism. It reveals US ambitions in Iraq to be just another chapter in the attempt to regain a foothold in the Mideast following the fall of the Shah of Iran.

From
Arming Iraq: A Chronology of U.S. Involvement

Whatever his complexes, Khomeini had no qualms about sending his followers, including young boys, off to their deaths for his greater glory. This callous disregard for human life was no less characteristic of Saddam Hussein. And, for that matter, it was also no less characteristic of much of the world community, which not only couldn't be bothered by a few hundred thousand Third World corpses, but tried to profit from the conflict.

From:
The United States and Iran-Iraq War 1980-1988

Michael --

Thank you for your courage and effort in exposing the truth.

Serge,

because liberating Tibet is not in America's best interest-- and our foreign policy is dictated by our own national interests. I can say that a million times though, and you still won't get it and you'll be spinning the "no blood for oil" platitudes tommorow as well just like a broken record.

NeoHaven, what? Is this spam? Are you aware that F.P. changes? WTF?

I am also from Kurdistan.

About the pro-Israel's question that brought up on this board. I don't care what that lady told you in NYC but most kurds do not HATE everything Jewish like Arabs do.

We have lived with Arabs for many years and we, Kurds, know exactly how they operate. What they say is the final word and if there is anything or anybody that say's no, they are met with violence.

Arabs are not a patriot people, in fact, Arabs are the most closed minded, old school retards who blame America and West in general for all their problems. They're nationalists. They are the most ruthless people you'll meet on the planet. Whatever idea they have in their head is "their truth". Nothing can change their minds.

To this day, there are people in Baghdad who does not believe Saddam used Chemical weapons against the Kurds in Halabja and elsewhere in Kurdistan while it's a proven FACT that Iraqi Army DID USE THE GAS on it's people. They refuse to believe it. Kinda like "If I ignore it it will go away" and "If I don't look it's not there" mentality that has the Arab people stuck in 17th century.

To quote my dad, who was a Peshmarga By the way and was in Abu Ghraib and the stories he have told me would have anyone crying, but when the subject of "Arab" comes up. All he has to say is this:

"As long as there are Arabs in this world, there will always be terrorism".

Call me racist and whatever And I don't give a rats ass but I honestly think the world will be a much better place if every Arab was lined up and excuted one by one. They will never learn how to ADAPT to today's world and todays ways of thinking. They still follows rules and stupid traditional rules that were created centuries ago.

The world has passed those close minded fucks by and whoever is living close to them is paying for it. We, the Kurds, are just one of the victims.

Phuck all you Arab pigs out there, especially you Habibi. You call yourself a soldier and you joined an "army". An army of pu$$ies that had no balls, just like every arab. Kurds fought against Tanks, Airplanes, Chemical and WMD's, faced your pu$$ified army and fought you still. When that "army" of yours faced a true military like that of the great U.S.A the only thing they could do is where to run.

Whether Arabs like or not,

Kurds love America
Kurds understands Israelis, therefore love them too
We don't like Arabs, never have, never will and you can go screw your sister like most of you pigs do, and i'm not kidding, I'll swear on whatever you believe in that some arabs actually RAPED THEIR OWN SISTER who then was killed because of "honor killing". Go figure....what a bunch of animals.

For another perspective on Kurdistan, it is worth checking out the series that has been running at Kevin Drum's site - washingtonmonthly.com. An American med student named Jonathan Dworkin has been sending regular posts from Kurdistan. It's a liberal site, but his take on Kurdistan is not that different from Michael's - he appears to agree with MJT that Kurds have "the core qualities necessary for liberalism to take root," and that Kurds are not nationalist fanatics or Islamic fanatics. I liked this quote:
There is an argument pursued by some in the United States that Iraq consists only of factions, not citizens. This is true enough for much of the country, but in this argument the Kurds are inevitably presented as no more than the faction obsessed with seizing Kirkuk. The fact that they have built a university system, allowed a free press, begun to embrace feminism, and held successful elections makes no impression on proponents of this thinking. The Kurds' eagerness to work with UN agencies, NGOs, and private investors also leaves them cold. And the fact that the Kurds have done all of this while upholding minority rights and inviting displaced Arabs to settle in their territory, even after suffering a genocide conducted by an Arab government, produces only an icy shrug.

Maybe if there's one area that Democrats and Republicans can agree on, it is that America should be doing everything it can to support Kurdistan.

Wow. Now I'm a bigger supporter of this war then I was previously. Killing innocent children. I hope they all rot in hell.

Thank you for posting this.

Michael,

What has happened to this comment line is very interesting.

I'm not going to re-fight this war. What happened, happened. We have to deal with the consequences.

But I'd like to clarify a few things, based on misinterpretations of what I wrote.

"I don't care what that lady told you in NYC but most kurds do not HATE everything Jewish like Arabs do."

That's not what she said. She only said that Kurds, being (in her words) "fanatic Muslims" would never agree to Muslim land being sovereign to another people.

Temporary truces, sure. A "lease" arrangement...why not? But in the final analysis, to any believing Muslim, Israel is Palestine, and Palestine is Muslim. It's quite possible to be neutral on the subject of Israel NOW and reserve the right to destroy it later.

I only brought it up because the Israel card seems to be the one folks like to brandish when they want to prove that their pet Middle Eastern tribe is liberal.

Ako goes on to say:

"Call me racist and whatever And I don't give a rats ass but I honestly think the world will be a much better place if every Arab was lined up and excuted one by one."

Now, compare and contrast with Vanya's observation:

"he appears to agree with MJT that Kurds have "the core qualities necessary for liberalism to take root," and that Kurds are not nationalist fanatics or Islamic fanatics."

How does that compare with "line 'em up and shoot 'em?"

Unfair Diana! That's only one Kurd, only one angry person! Don't generalize!

My point exactly.

Don't generalize from a few English-speaking Kurds. There are millions of them you haven't met. We have no idea what they think.

But I doubt they are Jeffersonian democrats.

Thank God that the USA is willing and able to free the people of the world and make us all as happy and successful and generally wonderful as US citizens are. It brings tears to my eyes when I think how ungrateful people from other, lesser countries behave.
And thankyou so much for telling us about the great triumphs of American foreign policy in such primitive countries and how the poor wretches who live in those countries can finally pull themselves out of the middle ages purely through teh selfless actions of American citizens who happily assist others without a thought for themselves.
God Bless America.

Hey Jen. Wow indeed. Hey, how many Iraqi children have been killed by American troops? I wish you people would think a little.

The point being, Tim, is that the US troops did not intentionally target Iraqi children, or gather them up and commit them to torture chambers.

My friend, you need to stop the irrational hatred of all things American and get a life, a REAL life.

.

Alan,

Yeah I probably deserve what you said, but I had no choice I was drafted into the Iraqi army at 17. During that war almost everyone had to serve and get training in the Iraqi army. It was not my choice to join. And regarding your comments on my education, I did finally finish collage and I am not a Muslim. I never ever was a Muslim, I used to consider myself a Muslim, but I never prayed or ever read the Quran. But I guess what I am trying to say is that, it’s true that the reason the Middle East is in the shape it is now is partly because of Islam. And probably because of hard head Arabs.

It doesn't matter to the children whether they were killed intentionally or not.

I do not understand your second sentence.

For a start, why do you assume I hate America? Is it because I recognise that US troops have killed an awful lot of civilian Iraqis including children. Does this mean that I hate America? Is this 'you are either with us or against us'?

Why do you call this an irrational hatred? If I did hate all things American, which I don't, why would this be irrational?

How do you mean 'get a life'? Do you think that daring to critise the USA means that I don't have a life and that I should support without question your governments decisions?

Hey, how many Iraqi children have been killed by American troops?

tim,

How many French and German and Belgian and Dutch children were killed when we liberated them from the Nazis? Think about that.

Ako Shwani,
We need more people like you in Kurdistan to replace those corrupt leaders of our in Kurdistan. The Barzani and Talabani tribes have been at each others throat for generations. All they care about is self enrichment, the clan superiority, and so on. But we the new generation need to rise up and bring our beloved homeland onto the map. Because if we leave it to the people in charger in Kurdistan today, it will be a faint dream that will never come true.

God bless you.
God bless Kurdistan.
God bless Israel.
God bless America.

Ako Shwani,
We need more people like you in Kurdistan to replace those corrupt leaders of our in Kurdistan. The Barzani and Talabani tribes have been at each others throat for generations. All they care about is self enrichment, the clan superiority, and so on. But we the new generation need to rise up and bring our beloved homeland onto the map. Because if we leave it to the people in charger in Kurdistan today, it will be a faint dream that will never come true.

God bless you.
God bless Kurdistan.
God bless Israel.
God bless America.

That's enough Tim, back to canada.

Nobody in the whole world believes for one minute that the us ruling elite gives a fuck about iraqi, kurds or any other people for that matter.

Now people on this site are "pretending" that the power brokers are suddenly interested in human rights and other peoples like the kurds.
The only reason for doing this is:
1. Denial: this makes sense in most cases. The reality is hard to face. Its a typical human response to indigestable information.
2. Money: They are being paid to do this or they benefit some other way for this supportive behaviour.
It doesn't hav eto be lincoln group money, but hey, who says its not?

Nobody in the whole world believes for one minute that the us ruling elite gives a fuck about iraqi, kurds or any other people for that matter.

If "caring" is your main concern, then I can understand your frustration. But some people-- especially those Iraqis liberated-- are more interested in results.

Amnesty International gets no results-- but at least they "care"! (that should be their slogan-- "Zippo results, but we care!"). George Bush (even though he doesn't give a fuck) liberated more people in a few days than Amnesty will liberate in 10,000 years.

Amnesty does get results. Ask Natan Sharansky and many other Soviet dissidents. Amnesty was also one of the loudest voices in the 1980s decrying Saddam's massacre of the Kurds.

>>>"loudest voices"

That's about all they've ever done.

Please enlighten us as to how you have done more. Maybe some of the Kurds on this list would like to add their thoughts as to whether Amnesty was a positive or negative influence for Kurdistan.

Americans will use any excuse to kill millions of foreigners. One day they kill for Jesus Christ and Christianizing darkies, another day it’s for oil and a good economy, another day they kill to spread political theories concerning better government, another day its 9-11 and revenge,…they kill to fight communists then they kill to protect communist.

Americans sure enjoy killing…they act like the terrorists they claim to hate. (Until those terrorists become allies again).

Billy,

you're a moonbat.

"Maybe some of the Kurds on this list would like to add their thoughts as to whether Amnesty was a positive or negative influence for Kurdistan." -Vanya

Saddam's amnesty was garbage to say the least. He would grand Amnesty to those who have fought against him and wait for them to comeback. Once those who did came back because of Saddam's amnesty, his Mukhabarat (secret police) would pick 'em in middle of the night and most likely were either killed or died because of torture.

Saddam, though a criminal, is a very smart dude. He would grand amnesty then his police agents would go door to door during the night and seek out those came back and well you know the rest.

Isn't it ironic that if it weren't for the Kurds, Iraq would be in a more chaotic state than it is right now. Kurds are becoming arbitrators between the Sunni's and Shia's.

They can't even get along themselves, this carpet huggers don't know nor do they understand the concept of Democracy. Mos