September 19, 2005

Bush Takes a Left Turn After Katrina

Just as I'm getting ready to leave the country and take a long break from hyper-partisan and hyper-annoying domestic politics, something totally refreshing and completely unexpected happens: liberals actually admit to liking one of George W. Bush’s policies while conservatives find something they don't like about him after all.

If you thought Hurricane Katrina’s political aftermath was hopelessly partisan…bzzt, thank you for playing.
The spending plan has not been well received by conservative voters--just 43% favor the huge federal commitment…while 37% are opposed. This is especially striking given how supportive the President's base has remained throughout his Administration.

The President's reconstruction plan is favored by 66% of liberal voters.

[…]

Fifty-seven percent (57%) of black voters support the federal reconstruction spending while just 17% are opposed. Among white voters, 49% favor the spending and 29% are opposed. This is the first Bush Administration proposal hat has attracted more support from black Americans than from white Americans.
I guess you can count me in with the liberals and the black Americans on this one. Complaints about “big government conservatism” don’t resonate with me at all after our worst natural disaster in history. If we don’t have enough money to rebuild the Gulf Coast, roll back the tax cuts or gut something useless.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at September 19, 2005 10:56 PM

Comments

I immediately go for the "gut something useless." There are several sites that have lists of things that can be cut and should be, no matter the current catastrophe; see Instapundit.

As a fiscal conservative, I do cringe somewhat at all of this, but I also see a lot of "hand ups" in the plan rather than just "hand outs." With Donna Brazile behind this and if she can garner more support from others, I think it just might work.

Posted by: cardeblu at September 19, 2005 11:34 PM

Count this liberal in, too. I'm all for this plan. I'm a fiscal moderate, so I'm certainly for spending as much as we need for Katrina relief, as well as cutting unnecessary pork (like that bridge to the abyss in Alaska, perhaps?).

Posted by: Rafique Tucker at September 19, 2005 11:43 PM

I'm moderately against too many "hand outs", but LOTS of reconstruction aid; employment aid; and gov't support for leverage of faith-based & secular NGO groups who actually are doing good works is OK. I'd prefer Fed guaranteed loans, wherever possible. Cash now (real quick), and lots of it, is the RIGHT move for Bush.

I think Bush is trying to spend until the Dems start complaining about him spending "too much"; and he might even be on the way towards bribing black voters to vote Rep (for Cash!) rather than Dem.

Cutting the fat, NOW, is a good thing. More transparency in the Federal budget, with bloggers (et. al) looking into it, would be great.

Too bad Bush ruled out tax increases; this is also the time for a gas stabilization tax, to keep the price stable at some high $60/ barrel or so with an inflation increase -- with the tax variable so that refineries pay the stable price, and consumers see the stable high price.

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at September 20, 2005 12:11 AM

I know where $941 million coul be cut.

Posted by: Alan K. Henderson at September 20, 2005 02:53 AM

"could"

Posted by: Alan K. Henderson at September 20, 2005 02:54 AM

I am in favor of spending to rebuild the gulf coast areas. But I want to see some effort on the part of our 'leaders' in Washingtion to help pay for it. Our national debt is dangerous to our security. Here is some ideas I think ought to be done:

1. Revisit the spending in the recently past
Transportation bill containing gobs of pork
overspending used to help our 'leaders' in
Washington get relected(keep their jobs) in
their districts.

2. Revisit the spending in the last Omnibus bill
past containg gobs of port overspending used
to help our 'leaders' ......

3. Do we need to go to the Moon 'again' at a
projected cost of over 100Billion(the 'estimate' used to get funding) which will reach 200 Billion or more to actually accomplish?

4. Reduce cost of the project and save on job
training and social service budgets by setting
up a WPA type of system that puts all able
bodied people in that area to work at a Davis-
Bacon livable wage. A livable wage will give
incentive to the unemployed to work, not to
mention the side benefits of self respect from
being able to support your family as well as
re-developing the 'habit' of working. Use job
traing money and other social services money
from other gov't department to help funding of
this WPA system.

4. Be sure Insurance companies pay their
obligations on their policies, rather than
their usual behavior of using any and all
sorts of reasons why the the policies they
sold these people to protect their property
do not cover afterall, pushing their obligation
onto the gov't...us.

5. Recend the last tax cut. We just cannot afford
it right now.

Few if any of these will be done in Washington because they may hurt our leaders 'real' prority, keeping their job. It will be easier and safer to add the cost to the gov't credit card unless 'we the people' raise some hell over this lack of leadership approach.

Please write them with your ideas on how you want this 200 Billion plus project paid for, else it surly will not be.

Posted by: Jim R at September 20, 2005 06:13 AM

It will be interesting to see what the long-term political fallout from this will be. From the (apparently) spur-of-the-moment interviews with victims (primarily black) I've seen on TV, a noticeable majority of them blame the local authorities rather than the Feds. Will that have a small ripple effect nation-wide? It wouldn't take much of a shift in the black vote to be disastrous for the Democrats. (Assuming other demographics don't shift in voting patterns.)

Posted by: exhelodrvr at September 20, 2005 06:54 AM

The most worrisome part of the President's proposal is to allow state and local officials to direct the recontruction. I grew up in New Orleans and Louisiana, and that's an open invitation to fraud and theft on a gargantuan scale.

Posted by: Glynn Young at September 20, 2005 07:12 AM

"It wouldn't take much of a shift in the black vote to be disastrous for the Democrats."

If this is what turns out to most 'interest' our leaders in Washington(from both parties), we will all become victims of Katrina a second time.

Please write your Congressmen to let them know you expect more from them. You expect workable solutions on a bi-partisan basis, and offer some.

Posted by: Jim R at September 20, 2005 07:34 AM

Jim R,
The black "leadership" is the group that needs to be written to. They are the ones who have sold their souls to the Democrats. That disaster (for the blacks) happened long ago, and is just rearing it's ugly head again now.

Posted by: exhelodrvr at September 20, 2005 07:59 AM

"The most worrisome part of the President's proposal is to allow state and local officials to direct the recontruction."

Agreed, especially the "local" part. That this disfunctional apparatus has been temporarily deprived of its (largely) disfunctional power base is the one small blessing out of this whole disaster.

I hope due attention is given to building local government agencies from scratch, as opposed to just restoring them to their former glory.

Posted by: E Rey at September 20, 2005 08:10 AM

If we don’t have enough money to rebuild the Gulf Coast, roll back the tax cuts or gut something useless.

Actually, recent history suggests that rolling back the tax cuts would decrease long-term government revenue. Besides, there's more than enough superfluous, pork-barrel spending that can be cut (see post about the "bridge to nowhere" by Alan K. Henderson above).

Posted by: Sean Rife at September 20, 2005 08:26 AM

While I too, cringe at more expense in the face of "Iraq: The Money Hole", "Tax Break: The Crony Deal", "Pork Barrel XV: Riders Away" and other great blockbusters from the past 10 years or so.... It would be foolish for the federal government not to restore a key trade and border port.

It would be nice, if while restoring the City, we were able to provide benefits to the citizens. Hiring local people for reconstruction, as opposed to outsiders, seems like a great start. Giving land that we've owned for years and done nothing with to people for homesteading seems very intelligent. Providing low/no interest loans for new business sounds good... All of these can provide the infrastructure for people in NOLA to improve their lives, if they choose to do so, without taking federal funds and simply flushing them down the canal.

The situation with the Insurance industry should be interesting. Some companies now refuse to write policies in Louisana already. If the federal government makes this very painful for them... mosbunall companies may simply pull out of the coastal areas (and other risky areas). Also, since sombunall companies refuse to service the area, this puts a greater percentage of recompense on fewer insurance companies. If the insurance company didn't plan to pay for flood devestation, it could bankrupt sombunall of the few providers that service the area.

Then again, the insurance companies should have planned for a Worst Case Scenario like this, charged an appropriate premium.

I'm still on the fence about how the federal government should deal (or not deal) with that...

Ratatosk

Posted by: Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord at September 20, 2005 08:51 AM

Totten,

I don't know about you, but I have heard and read a lot of conservative discontent with Bush's domestic policies during the last four years. Heck, I know a lot of conservatives hated the "compassionate conservative" rhetoric of the 2000 election because it implied that other conservatives are not compassionate.

Most conservatives have supported Bush faithfully for the same reason you did. When it comes to terrorism and national security, the president is the only game in town.

Posted by: JBP at September 20, 2005 09:02 AM

I'm still on the fence about how the federal government should deal (or not deal) with that...

The problem is, so is the government. But that's not stopping them from ramming $200 billion into the area immediately, without any plan for the long-term.

Posted by: Tony at September 20, 2005 09:05 AM

Bush took a Left turn way before Katrina given he has outspent any Liberal since Franklin Roosevelt. Conservatives have been grumbling since before the last election. The primary thing that keeps them loyal to him is the Left's irrational hate and vitriol towards him. They've shown us what the alternative is. And that's the same thing that turned so many people into Republicans in the first place.

Posted by: Carlos at September 20, 2005 09:12 AM

Conservatives have been grumbling since before the last election. The primary thing that keeps them loyal to him is the Left's irrational hate and vitriol towards him.

Bush is the left's fault.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 20, 2005 09:56 AM

Considering that many black leaders are Democrats, it doesn't make much sense to say that they have "sold their souls" to anyone.

Considering that a large majority of blacks believe the federal government's response was determined by racism, I have a feeling that there will be no negative political repurcussions for Democrats in this aspect.

Considering that the head of procurement policy at the Office of Management and Budget was just arrested for obstructing an investigation into fraud (and his ties to Jack Abramoff), and that he was also involved with distributing contracts for reconstruction money, I think it's safe to say that it doesn't really matter if local, state, or federal officials are in charge of the money - a lot of it is going to be stolen no matter what.

Considering that Bush's approval rating is only 35%, I'd say that a lot of conservatives have not stood by him faithfully no matter what. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Democrats, accused of being out of touch with the American mainstream, now represent the American mainstream, as a majority of people disapprove of Bush. Super-duper in fact, I'd go so far as to say that supporter of Bush are, now, a distinct minority in American politics and are out of touch with the American mainstream.

Hell damn ass. I love you too, Tom Grey.

Posted by: The Commenter at September 20, 2005 10:05 AM

At long last, is there nothing that can stop the selfish self serving politics long enough to help people in need and your own damned country in need.

Posted by: Jim R at September 20, 2005 10:21 AM

Maybe I should have voted for Bush. If a President Kerry had said about Katrina reconstruction that "it'll cost whatever it costs", and if a President Kerry had capituated on North Korea the way that Bush apparently has, we would be hearing about how the President was a socialist and an appeaser. Bush is more liberal ever would have dreamed of being.

Regarding financing, there is waste in government that could be cut, but it won't add up to a significant amount, relative to our overall deficit, or even relative to new Katrina and Iraq related costs. We need to raise taxes. Here's hoping that having to deal with a Democratic House majority in January 2007 will give Bush the legislative cover to do this, and to demonstrate he understands what Mark Twain said about his father: that it was astonishing how much he had learned in the years between his son's adolescence and middle age.

Posted by: markus at September 20, 2005 10:54 AM

I'm still at a loss as to why taxpayers should pick up the tab for this. Last time I checked you could still buy homeowners insurance.

Posted by: Roy at September 20, 2005 11:30 AM

Bush is the left's fault.

DPU,

in a way, yes. I think bushitler hatred did almost as much for Bush as Karl Rove did. The American people have an innate sense of fairness and that kind of crap just rubbed them the wrong way. That same sense of fairness is why the bushitler haters' attempts to use Katrina is proving futile.

Posted by: Carlos at September 20, 2005 11:45 AM

I think bushitler hatred did almost as much for Bush as Karl Rove did.

What do you see as the difference between Bush-hatred and legitimate criticism of Bush?

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 20, 2005 12:33 PM

In the "something useless" department, they could start right off the bat with the $200 or $300 million to build Alaska's Dan Young's "bridge to nowhere". That's the tip of the iceberg.

Posted by: MikeZ at September 20, 2005 12:49 PM

DPU,

I know you didn't ask me, but in my view you are legitimately critical of Bush. So is "The Commenter" who often posts here.

The Daily Kos crowd is different. That's why you and Commenter are on my blogroll and Kos is not.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 20, 2005 12:50 PM

DPU, you mean...there's...a difference?

Actually, I think it's pretty funny that, considering that large majority of Americans who disapprove of Bush, and his historically low popularity, one could conclude that the "innate sense of fairness" of the American people reflects rather poorly on Mr. Bush.

I mean, Carlos, either the American people have an innate sense of fairness - and they've judged Bush and found him wanting - or Bush is still a great guy and it's just that the American people are dumb (probably tricked by that wily MSM!).

So which is it - do you agree with the innate wisdom of the American people and dislike Bush, or do you agree with Bush and think the American people are wrong? Who do you hate, Carlos? Are you a deranged Bush hater? Or do you hate freedom and democracy and goodness and the American people?

Why do you hate America, Carlos? Why?!?

Posted by: The Commenter at September 20, 2005 12:54 PM

So which is it - do you agree with the innate wisdom of the American people and dislike Bush, or do you agree with Bush and think the American people are wrong?

There's the third possibility that the polls are lies.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 20, 2005 01:43 PM

There's also the distinct possibility that Bush is unpopular and the Democrats are even less popular. Actually, that's the way it has played out in the polls lately.

Anyway, no one seems to notice why I posted this item in the first place. Bush's Gulf Coast plan has more support among liberals than among conservatives. That doesn't seem to be the case among the commentariat here, but - then - my comments box is not the nation.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 20, 2005 01:57 PM

"roll back the tax cuts" ??

Why? Sean seems to be right, my sources indicate government revenue was up in 2004 comp. to 2003, and predicted by the WSJ to be waay up in '05 comp. to the first 8 months of '04 (exceeding both growth & inflation combined by as much as 15%). What's weird is in our great information age is that I can't seem to verify these hard #'s. CBO and US Treasury web pages make Dostoyevsky appear positively pithy.

So repealing the tax cuts would lower government revenue. Who would want that? If you don't want it, check your media sources. Last I checked they were still trying to hang hurricanes damages on Bush.

Posted by: nanobrewer at September 20, 2005 02:05 PM

Double,
Re Bush hatred vs. legit criticism:

The simplest way is to look at the things that Bush is criticized for, which Clinton was not, when they had virtually the same policies. (i.e. Clinton wanted to get rid of Saddam, and made it official U.S. policy; nary a peep from the left blaming Clinton for that.) All the criticism from the left on Kyoto, when the Senate vote on that was 95-0 against, when Clinton was President.

Posted by: exhelodrvr at September 20, 2005 02:16 PM

Clinton wanted to get rid of Saddam, and made it official U.S. policy; nary a peep from the left blaming Clinton for that

Would I be guilty of Bush-hatred if I suggested that the way Bush went about getting rid of Hussein might be the issue, not over whether he should have been deposed?

Or how about this quote, Bush-hatred, or valid criticism:
We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.
All the criticism from the left on Kyoto, when the Senate vote on that was 95-0 against, when Clinton was President.Not sure why you're using this example, that was the senate, and it was a vote before the Accord was even negotiated, and it presented the terms under which the US would negotiate, not rejecting it. Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 20, 2005 02:57 PM

Double,
The problem is that, the GREAT majority of the Bush haters don't do that. They start off with the "the war was for oil, Halliburton, to avenge his father" bullshit, when it has clearly been recognized for at least 10 years, by admins of both parties, that Hussein needed to go, that he was a significant contributor to the unrest in the region.

Here's another bit of bullshit:
Bush does everything unilaterally. Which ignores, of course, the fact that scores of countries have been actively involved in OIF. If you want to say that "Well, Bush should have gone through the U.N. before taking military action" then it is necessary to acknowledge the fact that the U.N. was never going to authorize the use of force against Hussein, which has become very obvious as OFF unfolds. And also acknowledge the fact that Clinton also took significant military steps without U.N. authorization.

Here's another:
The idiots who say that Bush acted in a cowardly manner on 9/11, when clearly his responsibility was to keep the government intact.

Why am I using the Kyoto example? I have a hard time believing you don't see why. Clearly, because the Democrats love to bash Bush for it, without acknowledging the fact that it would never get past the Senate, including their own Senators.

The quote you have is in relation to Desert Storm, which doesn't apply here.

Posted by: exhelodrvr at September 20, 2005 03:44 PM

Commenter,

your mistake is assuming that just because someone might dissaprove of Bush (i.e., your poll numbers) that this person is therefore a Bushitler hater. I certainly don't believe that. I know a few people who dissaprove of Bush for valid and defensible reasons, while I also know people who hate Bush for irrational and fastastical reasons-- these are the bushitler haters of whom I speak.

DPU,

in answer to your question, there's a difference between your buddy Neodude versus people like say Ratatosk. The former voices the kind of bushitler hatred that actually hurts his own cause, while Tosk might actually succeed in getting someone to rethink his position on a given topic. Same goes for Marcus. He's a hopeless Lefty that can actually defend his position without doing damage to his cause, and even Commenter when he's not being such an ass, and even you sometimes when you're not engaging in personal ad hominem.

Posted by: Carlos at September 20, 2005 03:49 PM

Carlos: ... and even Commenter when he's not being such an ass, and even you sometimes when you're not engaging in personal ad hominem.

Was reading your comment okay until I got to that par. Then my irony meter exploded.

exhelodrvr: The quote you have is in relation to Desert Storm, which doesn't apply here.

I'm not sure why. It could have easily have come out of Clinton's mouth, and as the dire predictions have proved dead on, I'd say that it more than applies. But it certainly isn't Bush-hatred, so we can move on from this red herring.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 20, 2005 04:06 PM

...until I got to that par.

"part"

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 20, 2005 04:07 PM

DPU,

a little bit of irony won't kill you.

Posted by: Carlos at September 20, 2005 04:09 PM

It doesn't apply here because the only part that does applyis the first sentence, which no longer applies anyway, since the Iraqis are now governing their country.

BTW, here's some other signs of Bush hatred/derangement:
Exaggerating the civilian casualties caused by OIF. Compounding that mistake by not acknowledging the number of Iraqi lives that were saved by the invasion, through the cessation of the sanctions and by Saddam's regime not being around to kill.

Not acknowledging the fact that the Shiites are free to worship as they please now.

Not ackonwledging what was done for the Marsh Arabs.

Posted by: exhelodrvr at September 20, 2005 04:41 PM

Exaggerating the civilian casualties caused by OIF

How many? And source, please.

Compounding that mistake by not acknowledging the number of Iraqi lives that were saved by the invasion, through the cessation of the sanctions and by Saddam's regime not being around to kill.

How many?

Not acknowledging the fact that the Shiites are free to worship as they please now.

Not ackonwledging what was done for the Marsh Arabs.

Who is not acknowledging these?

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 20, 2005 04:51 PM

"Bush doesn't care about black people" on national TV = bushitler hatred. Karl Rove twirls his moustache in glee.

Posted by: Carlos at September 20, 2005 05:12 PM

"Bush doesn't care about black people"

I wouldn't agree with that statement.

Poor people though...

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 20, 2005 05:14 PM

DPU,

New Orleans has been Democrat for 60 years-- a lot of good it's done those poor black folks. But at least they "care".

Posted by: Carlos at September 20, 2005 06:19 PM

Carlos,

Kind of ironic...I always thought if the average American could read the wonderful thoughts of your beautiful little mind...right-wing theories would have died a long time ago.

Posted by: NeoDude at September 20, 2005 06:43 PM

DPU,
Who is not acknowledging these?

Now you're being silly, and so I'll stop wasting my time.

Posted by: exhelodrvr at September 20, 2005 06:47 PM

Am I the only one here who has given any thought to the political impact if even a fraction of the immediate recovery costs are covered by merely cutting pork?

Bill Frist gets an undeserved umpteenth chance to show any leadership skills at all. My money says he'll screw it up. Again. Still.

The Republican caucuses have a chance to be fiscally conservative instead of continuing the Drunken Sailor SNL skit of the last five years. Rabid Partisan Republican voters aren't unhappy that gays aren't in camps or that abortion is legal nearly as much - an iota as much - but they are mad as hell about the explosion of blatant pork and intrusive government growth on the part of the congress, senate, and president they elected.

The Democrats could rise to the challenge, too. But they won't. They'll reflexively concentrate on villifying the very idea of cutting any spending long, LONG after even Rainman realizes that cutting twenty or even fifty billion dollars out of the Federal Budget won't be noticed by ANYONE - at least not "anyone" enough to effect other than tossup elections for open seats. Cutting even that pitiful amount would represent a concrete, if not wholly unprecedented, change in the fiscal conduct of the world's most inefficient business, the U.S. Government. It would be a (sigh) paradigm shift.

But the party that brands themselves as "making the hard calls"... now there's somebody who might profit. Big Time, as Mr. Cheney said once.

It would shake up world markets. The touchstone for the last few years has been "we are pawning our sovereignty by borrowing from (name your favorite T-bond holder here)". I'm fourtyfour years old, and my earliest introduction to economics was my dad yelling at the TV about government debt. People always bitch about spending but it always goes up.

And yet the world economy is still based on the productivity and purchasing power of the American consumer, the safety of assets held in this country, and the security our military capability represents.

What if this recovery was structured to be "pay as you go" and the costs and execution were conducted under audit - and that it actually came in under budget? It would be nice if we did reconstruction smart, too - as in abandoning huge swathes of the least viable areas (from engineering standpoints) up front, and concentrated on making the remaining areas survivable for the longest run possible. Even if the effort is hopeless in the end - the Mississipi is eventually going to abandon New Orleans- since we can only delay, not prevent, the inevitable. But that discussion is for another time.

I look at the two hundred billion figure being bandied about as the projected federal cost of recovery exactly the same way as I did Mayor Nagin's ten thousand fatality guess for New Orleans.

You can't control yesterday's weather - but with leadership, discipline, and a little optomism you can make tomorrow a much different place. We have that chance here, right now.

I do wonder if we've got enough statesmen left in either party to see this opportunity to achieve positive change on a massive scale. We'll know within a year if they make it or muff it.

They may well be too stuck on stupid. (Apologies to Gen. Honore).

Posted by: TmjUtah at September 20, 2005 06:54 PM

Well thought and said TmjUtah. It can happen if we all appeal to the better side of our statesmen.

Posted by: Jim R at September 20, 2005 07:53 PM

Truth Laid Bear has started a new section called Porkbusters, a collaborative effort to reduce pork in Congress. If you know of pork projects in your area, you submit them, and then anyone who looks can contact their Congressman (but only theirs; apparently, they still require snail mail and will tend to ignore out-of-area commenters.) The contact information is provided on the site.

I remember the Foley Library at my college, a brand-new library created mostly through federal funds (and, of course, Tom Foley.) Nice place, but I wondered why a PRIVATE college was getting money for such projects?

Posted by: B. Durbin at September 20, 2005 08:47 PM

Oh, and as someone who is fiscally conservative, I'm okay with rebuilding funds, because this sort of thing is the REASON for being thrifty most of the time.

(I also get annoyed when people complain about the size of the military in the budget, because that is one of the explicit jobs of the federal government, as outlined in the Constitution. If they cut out pork and the military took up more of the annual budget (while still getting the same outlay), I would be happy with the situation. Many tasks are better done at the local level anyway.)

Posted by: B. Durbin at September 20, 2005 08:51 PM

Don't jack with the tax cuts. A tax hike would increase the costs of those companies engaged in the rebuilding effort, and like responsible capitalists who want to continue to be going concerns, they'll just pass those costs on to whomever is footing the bill.

Posted by: Alan K. Henderson at September 20, 2005 11:23 PM

DPU,

The same thing kept happening to me. Eventually, I had to stop replacing my irony meter. Now, if only we could find some way of harnessing all that energy as a fuel supply...

Posted by: The Commenter at September 21, 2005 05:33 AM

As long as all criticism (supposedly a good thing in most leftist thought with which I'm familiar) of anything left instantly triggers a change in topic (usually to criticism of the "right" very broadly understood), that criticsm and the intended beneficiaries thereof will remain frustrated.

Just because its a natural reflex doesn't make it right or smart. Does the "right" do it to? Yes. Case in point. Just because Carlos is being an ass doesn't mean the Commentator isn't as well and wouldn't be well served to try another approach.

Posted by: Bezuhov at September 21, 2005 08:23 AM

Bezuhov,

Carlos wasn't being an ass, he was pointing out that somebody else was being an ass. Not that in Commenter's case it bothers me all that much because he's, well, Commenter.

Posted by: Carlos at September 21, 2005 08:34 AM

I don't think DPU was saying that Carlos was being an ass. Let's read it again!

"...and even Commenter when he's not being such an ass, and even you sometimes when you're not engaging in personal ad hominem."

In other words, Carlos made an ad hominem attack against me ("he's an ass") and then said "you are good when you're not making ad hominem attacks".

One might extend this to imply that Carlos, by making an ad hominem attack, is not in a good position to criticize others for ad hominem attacks; or, conversely, one might extend Carlos' argument, which implies that, since he's making an ad hominem attack and DPU is only ok if he's not making an ad hominem attack, Carlos is only ok if he's not making an ad hominem attack, which he is, so Carlos is bad. See?

Now, who knows what this kind of argument is called?

"I heard some rumors that Carlos likes little boys. I'm not saying it's true - just that if it is, it's pretty disturbing."

Posted by: The Commenter at September 21, 2005 09:47 AM

Commenter,

yes, but where have you shown I'm wrong?

Posted by: Carlos at September 21, 2005 09:56 AM

Carlos, that's not the point. I am an ass, at least on here (in real life, I'm a big softie), because I refuse to take this as seriously as some of you seem to.

The point is that you were creating sweet, sweet irony - "you're a jerk! it's bad to call people jerks!" - and, well, it kind of undercuts your general reasoning if you're ok with a sentence in which you say "X is bad! I like X" - unless you're a moustache twirling villain. How many women did you tie to train tracks today, Carlos? Or should I use your real name - Karl von Doom?!???!?

Posted by: The Commenter at September 21, 2005 10:52 AM

Commenter,

you seem to be wasting a lot of hot air-- albeit in your usual humourous way-- to convince me of a point to which I've already conceeded (i.e., the ad hominem irony), yet we both agree that at least on this blog you act the ass. So where's our disagreement?

Posted by: Carlos at September 21, 2005 10:59 AM

...not to mention that saying you act the ass isn't really an ad hominem given we both agree it's a statement of fact.

Posted by: Carlos at September 21, 2005 11:12 AM

Shush, Karl, and go back to trying to take over the world from your Fortress of Doom in darkest Prussia with your fleet of Destructo-Zeppelins and autonomical roboto-men.

Posted by: The Commenter at September 21, 2005 11:26 AM

oh Commenter, even at your silliest you usually try to make a point. What happenned.

Posted by: Carlos at September 21, 2005 11:28 AM

What happened?

As a child...my parents....disabused me....

Posted by: The Commenter at September 21, 2005 11:47 AM

Shush, Karl, and go back to trying to take over the world from your Fortress of Doom in darkest Prussia with your fleet of Destructo-Zeppelins and autonomical roboto-men.

Uh, Commenter, I believe that would be Victor Von Doom, and the castle would be in Latveria.

And yes, I read way too many Marvel™ comic books. Besides, I see Carlos more as the Hobgoblin. No offense, Carlos.

And bow before my understanding of Michael's comment section formatting codes. I can produce both © and ™!

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 21, 2005 01:05 PM

DPU,

none taken.

do you have a webpage on how to do all that superscript stuff?

Posted by: Carlos at September 21, 2005 01:58 PM

" that saying you act the ass isn't really an ad hominem given we both agree it's a statement of fact."

Well, it would be an ad hominem attack if you said "How could an Ass (something everyone can agree with) like Commentor have any clue about the Federal Budget". The ad hom isn't a statement of accusation, but rather an attack on the individual in order to discredit the individuals position in the debate.

Otherwise it's just name calling.

Oh and thanks for the compliment earlier... I'll make sure to send some mittens to Old Scratch ;-)

Posted by: Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord at September 21, 2005 02:50 PM

do you have a webpage on how to do all that superscript stuff?

Nope, it's not HTML, it's Michael's blog. Normally, you have to type &tm; to get a trademark in HTML. On MJT, you have to type ™ instead.

Oh wait. Damn.

Open parenthesis "tm" close parenthesis = ™
Open parenthesis "c" close parenthesis = ©
Open parenthesis "r" close parenthesis = ®

I'm sure there's more, just haven't found them yet.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 21, 2005 03:01 PM

thanks DPU.

Posted by: Carlos at September 21, 2005 03:28 PM

Aha

(tm) = ™
(c) = ©
(r) = ®

Getting those to display did take some HTML knowledge. And I'll keep how to write things like "Water boils at 100° celcius" to myself ¡!¡£³¶

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at September 21, 2005 03:28 PM

The ad hom isn't a statement of accusation, but rather an attack on the individual in order to discredit the individuals position in the debate.

Then my statement of fact (he's an ass) wasn't an ad hom given that it wasn't intended to discredit anything he's said. In fact I was giving credit to what he says despite his being an ass.

Posted by: Carlos at September 21, 2005 03:30 PM

Ah, the interminable internet pissing contest. I guess on the net no one can tell who's the alpha dog.

Frankly, the courageous and, yes, earnest, host of this site deserves better.

Posted by: Bezuhov at September 21, 2005 05:21 PM

Bark bark! Bark bark bark, bark bark, woof.

Posted by: Alpha Dog at September 22, 2005 07:23 AM

Carlos,

Of course, that was my point... it wasn't an ad hominem attack... it was just name calling.

I wonder if we'll start seeing digital spitballs between some of the people here soon.....

Posted by: Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord at September 22, 2005 08:02 AM

>>>"it was just name calling."

If it was just name calling I would have called him a poopy face.

Posted by: Carlos at September 22, 2005 04:07 PM

When the cat's away....

Posted by: Jim R at September 22, 2005 08:32 PM

If it was just name calling I would have called him a poopy face.

Hehehehehehehe

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