Michael J. Totten: Conservative Heretics

July 18, 2005

Conservative Heretics

Yesterday I highlighted hysterical reactions to centrism on the left but didn't mention any on the right. That's because I was focusing on responses around the blogosphere to the new centrist blog Donklephant. I didn't see any hysterical reactions to that blog on the right so there was nothing there to highlight.

It seems to me that conservatives in general are more comfortable with centrists than are liberals in general. And I'm not just talking about myself here. I write far more about foreign policy (where my views are hawkish and "conservative”) than domestic policy (where my views are usually liberal) so I'm not an ideal test case. It’s not just me, though. I see a lot more denunciations of the center-left New Republic magazine on the left than I see on the right – and I don’t know what else could explain it except for a loathing of heretics.

Anyway, I don't want to give the impression that I naively believe conservatives take kindly to those who buck their own party line. They don't. John Cole - who blogs at Balloon Juice - has been having a rough time of things lately since he started taking on right-wing partisan hacks. He's a good object lesson for any disaffected former liberal who is tempted to move beyond the middle and actually join the conservatives. His experience with the right isn't much different than mine has been with the left. Formerly liberal centrists may be acceptable to conservatives. But formerly conservative centrists aren't so much.

Perhaps the reason conservatives in general are more tolerant of centrists in general is because - for right now anyway - there are more former liberals around than there are former conservatives. It might not be any more complicated than that.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at July 18, 2005 06:18 PM

Comments

Here's my hypothesis - the conservative movement is more like a social club, and conservatives usually love clubs. As long as you basically obey the rules and don't insult the other members you can hold eccentric opinions. Attitude is more important than reason or logic -if you make the right patriotic noises and pledge loyalty to a few key ideas - freedom, markets, God - you can get away with a fair amount of leeway on individual issues. Liberalism on the other hand is a philosophy held by people who consider themselves more intelligent - they like to believe they arrived at their opinions through objective reasoning and observation of empirical fact - hence any dissident is disturbing - either you are wrong or their whole world-view has to be called into question. Interestingly libertarian conservatives are more like Liberals in their treatment of dissent - because they also believe their political beliefs are a product of their intelligence and not simply a bunch of inherited prejudices and preconceived notions.

Posted by: vanya at July 18, 2005 06:54 PM

there are more former liberals around than there are former conservatives. It might not be any more complicated than that.

Very interesting if not frustrating thing to contemplate. Either way their is no way to excuse it.

Posted by: Joseph at July 18, 2005 07:00 PM

Take a look at how the right treats Andrew Sullivan. They can't even claim that they read his blog anymore without losing credibility.

Posted by: Downtown Lad at July 18, 2005 07:01 PM

Conservatives already have a religion-- it's called christianity. So they don't have to burn political heretics.

Not so Liberals. They are generally irreligious-- except for their politics. That's why they burn their heretics.

I know I'm right because I notice the emotional reaction in Liberals when you attack their politics. It's the same visceral reaction I have when people attack my christian religion. Yet if you attack my conservative politics it slides right off my back.

Posted by: spaniard at July 18, 2005 07:11 PM

John McCain gets pretty savaged by the right, and it seems there's plenty of "RINO" talk about other moderate Republicans if they don't march in lockstep with the talking points du jour.

Posted by: SoCalJustice at July 18, 2005 07:20 PM

"Attitude is more important than reason or logic -if you make the right patriotic noises and pledge loyalty to a few key ideas - freedom, markets, God - you can get away with a fair amount of leeway on individual issues."

It seems to me that if you "pledge loyalty" to freedom and markets, or perhaps even (shock!) believe in them as organizing principles, then yes, you're going to give those who believe in those same things leeway on "individual issues." That's what freedom and markets are about.

(God's something of a seperate issue.)

Posted by: Eric J at July 18, 2005 07:20 PM

Vanya

Vanya no offense, I don't even know where to start except to point out you must not be a conservative or understand them. From your description it is as if defined from a great distance with prejudice never having known one.

In fairness as a liberal (or former, heretic whatever) I will expect some strange description from a conservative that understands little about liberalism.

For me I sometimes don't know what to think as some aspects of conservativism today seems to have what used to be liberal takes on things. One thing is religion. Religion used to be used by the left during Civil Rights to effect social change and the left was fine with it. Liberal Secularism has banished such things and now more effective human rights activism in the religious realm seems to occur on the right. It in many ways has become a result of the fallout that rejection brings. Right now there is more acceptence of debate on the right and more rejection of such on the left.

I am beginning to picture hearing Jeff Foxworthy say... "If you aren't a liberal-leftest then you must be a Conservative." Because that is what it almost seems like. The "Big Tent" has more moved to the right.

Posted by: Joseph at July 18, 2005 07:31 PM

Conservatives are more tolerant because they're dumb. Nice.

Posted by: mnm at July 18, 2005 07:51 PM

Conservatives and centrists have been around for a long time. They work in the same system and have learned to tolerate each other. The radical left, on the other hand, has always been intolerant, going all the way back to Lenin and Marx. Intolerance is part of the whole schtick, it denotes seriousness of purpose and supernormal insight and reflects the big egos of the would be bosses. The left is not part of the system, they want to replace it with something else.

Posted by: chuck at July 18, 2005 08:07 PM

I think the main reason this has developed is because of how institutionalized the modern left is. Unions, academia, interest groups, discussion boards: all very clique-ish. Memes bounce around those echo chambers and consensus reality becomes whatever they agree it is. When they emerge from their lefty cocoons, blinking and stumbling in the light of day, they're forced to deal with the fact the other 70% of the country doesn't agree with most of their version of reality, and I think it honestly perplexes and enrages them when everyone doesn't yell "Right on! Bush is a Nazi!" The center-right is anchored in talk radio and the long tail of blogs, and so is forced to freely debate things more, to their benefit.

As a mostly-libertarian, I instinctively distrust institutions. They tend to ossify and however well-intentioned they inevitably succumb to "mission creep" in order to justify their continued existence and growth, and thus you get a tragedy like the once-noble NAACP gradually morphing into a left-wing hate machine.

I offer as further proof the one area of the right that is least hospitable to centrists, which is of course the Religious Right: the aged institutions of religion. Like their counterparts the Religious About Being Leftist, their self-righteous beliefs are often unshakeable by mere fact. (As a Christian, I am happy to remain basically nondenominational.)

Posted by: TallDave at July 18, 2005 08:50 PM

Check out the right's reaction when some Republicans and conservatives broke away from the pack to protest the abuse of federal power over the Schiavo case. It was like a bar fight, and it was you against everybody else who'd just been sharing a pint with you a minute ago.

Posted by: RheGirl at July 18, 2005 09:04 PM

Apostates are scary.

He used to agree with us, so he was intelligent and thoughtful. Now he doesn't, so either there's some sort of Brain Eater around (horrid! what if I should catch it?) or he's detected something wrong with our ideas (impossible! run away! run away!). Terrifying, either road.

Neocons the same. It's why Wolfowitz gives them the collywobbles.

Regards,
Ric

Posted by: Ric Locke at July 18, 2005 09:25 PM

Perhaps the reason conservatives in general are more tolerant of centrists in general is because

they are in power.

Posted by: InvisiblePoster at July 18, 2005 09:31 PM

"Check out the right's reaction when some Republicans and conservatives broke away from the pack to protest the abuse of federal power over the Schiavo case. It was like a bar fight, and it was you against everybody else who'd just been sharing a pint with you a minute ago"

There is a large difference between regular partisan politics and ideology, and you're mixing them up. For instance, when a certain unnamned conservative Democrat from Georgia spoke up in favor of Bush, he was pushed at seriously by Democrats. But that was an expression not of the special contempt the Left holds for apostates, but regular issues politics savagery. It was the same in Schiavo, which as you may have noted brought few-to-no lasting feuds or righter-than-thou internecine purges on the Right. You're completely right, it was a pugilistic combat from the beginning. But it wasn't rooted in inquisitory righteousness, which is why there has been no lasting damage.

Just because conservatives fight does not make it the kind of fighting that typifies the "I'm keeping it real" nonsense the Left puts out on a daily basis. I was on both sides and I'm an ex-leftist now. I can tell you it's night and day. Totten was wrong about Cole, and all he did was use a couple nasty messages on an email system to "prove" its the same.

I know what he feels like. When I was having doubts about the Left, I thought I was being subtle and intelligent by saying both sides are nasty to apostates and dissidents. It's one of those guesses you make that sound skeptical and sharp and doesn't set you up to being made a fool out of when your new side lets you down.

However, I found out it was clever nonsense, an intellectual copout. I gradually began to become aware that the Left and Right were wholly different in nearly every respect. You're wrong, the sides are not the same. I've been on both, there is no comparison.

You can always tell- real ideological apostasy battles leave long, bad bitterness. There is none on the Right. That's how you can tell.

Posted by: James Versluys at July 18, 2005 09:49 PM

"Religion used to be used by the left during Civil Rights to effect social change and the left was fine with it. Liberal Secularism has banished such things "

I disagree with this characterization, for it misrepresents what Secularism is. Secularism is a political view, not a religous attitude (or non-religous attitude). Secularism is a position that most non-relious people would hold, for obvious reasons, but it is primarily a postion held by religous people, including deeply religous people. It is the view that supports church-state separation - in fact it is the view that religion can best thrive when it operates in a sphere that has little overlap with temporal power. It is, I think it fair to say, a fundamental principal of American government - part of our revolutionary heritage and gift to the world.

The civil rights movement made all manner of religous arguments for why legalized segregation was immoral - as a way to appeal to the decent instincts of our overwhelmingly religious citizens. But at heart it was a thorougly secular movement. The goal was to insure that the secular laws of this country were aligned with the secular values and principals laid out in the Constitution and the Declaration. Equal rights under the law. Equal political standing for all citizens. These are not inherintly religous principals. They may be inspired in part by some of the more enlightened religions that have adopted them, but they are at heart, pure liberal Enlightment social contract values.

The modern left does not dismiss religous argumentation of the kind used in the civil rights movement. The growing christian left movement is unabashedly promoting the seemingly forgotten sets of christian values - which speak to issues of poverty relief, compassion, and inclusive community that have been ignored by the christian right.

These christian leftists have, as far as I can tell, recieved nothing but a warm welcome from the rest of the leftist community.

Posted by: InvisiblePoster at July 18, 2005 09:57 PM

which speak to issues of poverty relief, compassion, and inclusive community that have been ignored by the christian right.

Don't be silly. And remember that log thingee.

Posted by: chuck at July 18, 2005 10:16 PM

Generally true, but one inexplicable exception seems to be Tom Friedman of the "Gasp" NYT. He's pro Israel, but not necessarily in lock step with Sharon or Likud. He hasn't stated it as a catechism or article of faith, but he has pretty much said, "A smaller Israel? Maybe. No Israel? No!" He's just come out with a book supporting globalization, and the Weekly Standard has ripped it to shreds. Little Green Footballs can't stand him. This is, I think, the one case where the American right has a problem with a sensible (to me) centrist.

Warren

Posted by: Warren at July 19, 2005 12:15 AM

Secular Fundamentalism is the Leftist BELIEF system; its pseudo-religion. With a poorly defined PC dogma of: anti-war; anti-Christianity; anti-capitalism (or at least against any system that allows Rich folk to get richer while some people starve) -- and pretty much in favor of the easy, convenient "solutions".

The Christian Left was debunked by Pope JP II -- in Latin America it was called "Liberation Theology". All too often it's a call for the gov't to spend more on aid -- without discussing the morality of raising taxes, nor the effectiveness of the aid, nor a review of prior aid (some 500 BILLION USD for Africa over 40 years, pissed away by bad gov't). What poor folk need are jobs. Any Christian Left that isn't generating more jobs isn't helping poor folk as much as Wal-Mart.

Roe vs. Wade is one of the PC "rocks", a Court decision that is, essentially, a new amendment to the US Constitution -- but one that would never have passed the states' ratification requirement.

When Hugh Hewitt or Powerline are "savaging" Specter or some Rep who is not being as partisan as they want, they go so far as to say the Reps should elect somebody else. In the primary.

There is a lack of over-the-top comments by Reps against others which speaks to an unwillingness to compare actual quotes for actual quotes.

On this site, MJT noted Durbin's comment comparing US prisoner treatment at Gitmo to the Nazis [MJT says he trashed Durbin, but I haven't seen this]. Rove truthfully said Al Jazeera was playing up this quote. Rove said this shows how Liberals feel.

OK, here's Michael quoting Rove:
Let me just put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals.

And MICHAEL, not Rove, says Rove is saying: Liberals deliberately hope to put our troops in greater danger, according to Rove. In other words, Liberals=Traitors.

This is a way Leftists twist partisan hack Rove/ Rep words into a similar savagery, a savagery the Rep words themselves do NOT have.

[There IS a problem with any criticism of a war effort, because such criticism will be used by the enemy -- both sides are always striving for Moral Superiority. That's a different rant.]

If you accept Dem quotes as real quotes, and compare to Rep quotes AFTER BEING twisted, then maybe you can claim just about as bad on both sides. John Cole's sight is trying to be careful about this, with the full actual quote. (right now my Firefox doesn't read his comments.)

Michael's point about conservatives being more OK with centrists is related to the fact that Reps think we are are at war, and that supporting the war effort is the most important policy. Centrists that support Democracy in Iraq will, pretty much, be tolerated. Those opposed to democracy will be mostly ignored by the Bush team, leaving most ridicule to the hacks.

If Hillary is the only Dem who can support Democracy in Iraq (what should we do NOW?), she'll win the nomination. The intolerance of the Dems to almost any pro-democracy liberals is the big difference. This issue will, either before or after 2006, be a less important issue (or else the Dems will be a less important party.)

There IS a big, and growing, group of pro-life Christians in the Reps, including Catholics excommunicated by the Dems, and this group demands pro-life laws, and Justices. The pro-lifers will continue to organize & agitate, and they are not going away -- they're getting stronger, politically, as they raise more kids in their pro-life families. [Sigh. They are NOT small-gov't Libertarian types though]

The pro-abortion Leftist rage is prolly related to the fact that they can see the demographic writing on the wall, their prior victory in Roe may well have been Pyrrhic.

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at July 19, 2005 12:36 AM

Warren: This is, I think, the one case where the American right has a problem with a sensible (to me) centrist.

I like Tom Friedman, too. I don't always agree with him and sometimes think what he says is ridiculous, but I like him anyway. He tries hard to be reasonable and balanced about Middle Eastern politics, which is rare - particularly when Israel is involved.

And I loved From Beirut to Jerusalem. I read it for a second time in Beirut and was riveted all over again.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at July 19, 2005 01:11 AM

Just look at how the left treats blacks who stray away.

Posted by: exhelodrvr at July 19, 2005 01:19 AM

I think it is correct that people on the Right are generally more tolerant of centrists than are people on the Left, but so far I don't think any of the replies have gotten to the core reason. Could it be a lack of confidence among people on the Left, born of ideological exhaustion ?

Admitedly I am coming at this from a libertarian perspective, but I think the current state of the Left can only be understood by looking at history. Let's broadly define "the Left" as collectivists; people who believe in using goverment coercion to engage in social engineering and redistribution of wealth in domestic affairs, and "consensus" among nations in international affairs (defer to the UN, etc), whereas the Right believes that which governs least governs best, and, sometimes we have to act alone in the world, because principles are more important than consensus.

Look at what has happened over the past 70 years or so. The Left was in the vanguard in estabilishing the notion of a government safety net, minimum wages, unemployment insurance, medicare, medicaid, social security, environmental protection ( yes I know - Nixon ), civil rights, and now gay rights. Most Americans now believe these are part of the fabric of our society, although I personally would argue some of the above are ultimately counterproductive, at least as currently designed and practiced. Nevertheless, all of these things were victories for the Left.

Now lets look at what happened starting around 1980. The Thatcher-Reagan Revolution, followed by the failure and collapse of communism, global movements toward privatization, deregulation, etc. Now we see countries like France and Germany, which still practice the large welfare-statist European "social model" are strangling themselves - high structural unemployment, sluggish economies, etc, and the ONLY way out for them is to liberalize their labor markets ( take on the unions ),follow the Anglosphere model of lower taxes and foster an entrepreneurial culture. The UK , specifically Ireland, is the model for Europe now. Cut taxes, deregulate, open the economy to trade, become business-friendly, or perish in the global economy.

There has been a huge shift to the Right in the past 25 years, even among many intellectuals. There is now a broad understanding and acceptance of the fact the CAPITALISM and FREEDOM are INSEPARABLE, that it is no accident that the countries which respect human rights are also those which have the most free economies. Marxism collapsed in part because capitalism both created change and adapted to change. And it is NOT an accident that the decline of communism AND the decline of the broadly-defined Left occurred in tandem. Alan Bloom once stated that your view of humans and their relation to state and society ultimately are derived from either Marx or Locke. Flexible, adaptive societies are healthy societies. And flexible societies CANNOT exist without capitalism. Government does not do much well, and anyone of average intelligence knows it, even if they do not admit it. But Democrats are stuck with being the party of government because that is where their constituences are. So, Democrats have become reactionary, because they cannot advocate innovative solutions to problems, especially when the solutions involve less government (ie personal Social Security accounts), lest they offend their "base". Yes we need to find a way to make sure everyone has needed health care, but few believe government monopoly is the solution. We already have a government safety net and all of the other things outlined above which the Left successfully established. It says volumes about the wonders of capitalism that people now considered "poor" in the US are, as a group, overnourished and fatter than rich people. Poor people today have cars, microwave ovens, computers, take vacations to Las Vegas, etc. The actual difference in basic day-to-day living conditions between "rich" and "poor" people in terms of comfort and convenience in areas of life where it matters is less than it has ever been in our history. So the arguement for wealth redistribution for its own sake just does not cut it anymore. And no sane person now advocates nationalization of industry.

So, bottom line is, THERE IS NOT MUCH LEFT FOR THE "LEFT" TO DO ! Those things which government can do to make things better in any significant way have just about been done. We are maxed out with government.

The late Democrat Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan said over 20 years ago that the Republican Party had become the party of ideas, and it is still true today. The Democrats are largely victims of their own successes in domestic affairs. I think this awareness among many on the Left, and their refusal to admit it, explains the anger, shrillness, and refusal to discuss the substance of matters with people with whom they disagree. They are bankrupt, but rather than admit it and "move on", they have become reactionaries. Of course, the people on the Left who have admitted it to themselves and have moved on are people we now refer to as neoncons, centrists, or Republicans.

People on the Right, I think, are more open and accepting of centrists in large part because they are confident in their beliefs. They have principles and ideas. The Right has a PHILOSOPHY of government, even if they do not always practice it themselves. The Left does not, at least not anymore, with the collapse of socialism as a motivating ideology. For the Left these days, its all about power for its own sake, and maintaining the status quo.

This could be extrapolated to the attitude of the Left with regard to international affairs : defer to the UN, maintain the status quo - don't rock the international boat, even if people are being murdered en mass. Legitimacy is defined by what the UN says it is, etc.

The Right has problems also, but today the Right has most of the constructive ideas, and is more willing to "rock the boat" when it NEEDS to be rocked, both domestically and internationally.

The only realistic hopeful future for this planet includes the universalizaton of human rights, and the creation of global prosperity through free markets and free trade. Too many on the Left still cannot bear to admit those facts. So anyone who dares leave the "tribe" and become a "centrist" is further evidence of the failure of the Left. And the cognitive dissonance and anger on the Left grows. Hence we get the likes of Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Screaming Howard Dean, Daily Kos, Al Franken, Arianna Huffingpuffingtongue - conspiracy theories, name calling, etc, but no ideas. Bankrupt.

Posted by: freeguy at July 19, 2005 01:55 AM

The difference was highlighted fairly well recently -- as long as the economic conservatives can live in blue states, they avoid the worst of what the cultural conservatives inflict, and as long as the cultural conservatives are disinterested in prosperity, they can deal with the worst of what the economic conservatives inflict. So you don't see a lot of apostasy because the coalition is fundamentally sound. Leftist coalitions tend to be much more fractious, with far more competing interests.

Also, it's easier to be civil when policy isn't terribly relevant -- when your kids aren't going to go to war, when your job isn't going to be lost, and when your house isn't going to be repossessed.

Posted by: Kimmitt at July 28, 2005 03:24 PM

Michael, this is a test of your comment section since your site is experiencing posting problems at the moment. If it works, you can use it to explain to the readers, if they come this far, that your site has temporary technical problems and that you will post as soon as possible--except that I just did.

Posted by: Woody at July 28, 2005 05:36 PM

NOTICE:

The last ten days worth of posts have been temporarily lost and I do not have the ability to post any new material. This should be fixed shortly. (Crosses fingers.)

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at July 28, 2005 05:49 PM

*********

I think this is partialy right. The right has principles and ideas of how a government should operate (HINT: it's about the Constitution.) Most are willing to accept the idea that even within these principles and ideas, there is flexibility to allow difference of opinion on some issues.

Primary mission of conservatives should be returning the Federal government to it's Constitutional roots. Which would mean many of the social issues would fall back to the states, where the people could decide what was "right" for them.

The Roberts nomination battle is a prime example. President Bush made a carefull thoughtfull decision in nominating him. To many people on the fringes want to know what side he is on.

I want to know, is he going to judge laws fairly and in accordance with the Constitution, presidence, and commonsense. I don't want an ideologue who is going to rule the way "we" want him to. Sometimes "we" aren't right.

I think many on the right get this, but then there are those on the fringes who think, it's "OUR" turn now.

I want what's best for this nation, not what's best for the Republicans, or a particular politician.

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