They're all blaming the wrong people. Nope, not Al-Qaida, either. It was the French, upset at losing their bid to host the 2012 Olympics.

Michael, thanks for the link to the Popinjays. Just read the latest post, but if they're always this good they'll be a regular read.

Ain't no time for jokes, dog...how would you react if a Brit was making up wisecracks after 9/11? Very, very poor taste. Totten, I don't always buy into your hawkish, so-called centrist(?) views but you're right to call out the radical idiots and point us to some intelligent writings on the left. Now's a time for some answers and illogical and/or uninformed commentary doesn't help anybody.

Michael, thanks for the link to the Popinjays. Just read the latest post, but if they're always this good they'll be a regular read.

Yeah, Popinjays is very good. "The Current Task" (about the fifth post down) is especially germane.

Should probably have mentioned that the joke was told to me by a Brit.

And of course, for those who didn't notice or have forgotten, a "drink-soaked Trotskyite popinjay" was what Christopher Hitchens was called by George Galloway, the crooked pro-fascist from the UK, another in a line of Oswald Mosleys for our time.

Wow, you're living in the heart of moonbat country up there. As a sensible moderate Dem, I've always been amazed that there are people in this world who actually think like that.

Just goes to show you, the far right and the far Left really do sort of meet somewhere in the abyss of fringe lunacy.

Thanks for the link to the Sozzled Socialists Site Michael.

"Just goes to show you, the far right and the far Left really do sort of meet somewhere in the abyss of fringe lunacy."

Who is this "far right" we keep hearing about. Identify them please. Michael Savage? Limbaugh? Falwell? I don't know of any far rightwingers who don't believe terrorists bombed us on 9/11 and that we shouldn't be breaking things in the middle east.

I'd say that accusing an Al-Qaeda hit of being a "karl rove operation" is a step in the right direction for an ultra-lefty, as it recognizes in a sense the extreme, reactionary, nature of the radical Islamic enemy we all face together, whatever our politics.

Alleging any sort of conspiracy along the lines of a Rove/Bin Laden axis is utterly moonbats, of course. I think it is valid, however, to Point out that Bin-Laden and those enamoured with his ideology did more than any other group of individuals to ensure the reelection of Bush in 2004. (Just like the early Hamas bombings prior to the '96 Israeli elections basically got Netanyahu elected.)

spaniard -- the "far right" are the radical Islamists. Also, of course, the xenophobic, antisemitic, isolationist Right (national vanguard, for instance.)

No, they don't have any more to do with mainstream conservativism than the Democratic Party has to do with Indymedia.

So would it be appropriate in THIS CASE to question their patriotism???

There's no need, Spaniard. Most of them have no patriotism at all. They all, of course, believe they are acting out of good - that their eyes are open, that they see reality for what it is, that they're privy to information the rest of us aren't, and all they see is evil and oppression, with them being the only good ones. So some of them probably believe they have patriotism - that they're fighting against evil to create a better country because they love it oh so much.

But what they want isn't really America, or a real society at all. Sort of like how people writing on Free Republic, who would explode if you called them unpatriotic, would love to destroy most of America's freedoms in order to demonstrate their love for America's freedoms. Fringe nutjobs, in general, hate everything.

Maybe it is time for the anti-masonic party to make a comeback.

Who is this "far right" we keep hearing about

Fred Phelps for one.

>>>"Fred Phelps for one"

He's the fag hater, what does that have to do with 9/11 and the war on terror.

"I don't know of any far rightwingers who don't believe terrorists bombed us on 9/11 "

Well yes, they admit that terroists did it, but they claim that it was actually ordered up by God himself, as punishment for our wicked liberal ways.

A whole post about psychologically disturbed people? I walk around downtown on my lunchbreak and I see them everyday. Some of them are lying on the ground shaking a cup, and some of them are shoving pictures of aborted fetuses in your face. There are those on the left who equate Bush to Hussein, and those on the right who are huddled up in a shack in Michigan ranting hysterically about the Zionist planned 9/11 attacks. They are not even worth getting annoyed about. They are irrelevant. They have dropped out of the real world, and good riddance to them.

Spainard, Fred Phelps and is followers have been taunting the families of dead soldiers and marines at their childrens funerals.

Well yes, they admit that terroists did it, but they claim that it was actually ordered up by God himself, as punishment for our wicked liberal ways.

Karl,

actually, that's a misrepresentation and I'm not particularly motivated to correct your cartoonish views right now, but even so they know we were bombed by jihadis and that we should kill them-- unlike these Leftists.

mika,

why is this Phelps fellow taunting families of dead soldiers?

Michael -

You might think that you live in moon bat land but your neck-of-the-woods does not compare to the holy trinity of the fringe left: Berkeley, San Fran, and Santa Cruz. I have lived and taught in all three areas and this nonsense is EVERYWHERE (in the classrooms, news stands, on telephone poles, etc). The degree of myopia and lack of relativism is staggering. Over here, you can lose so-called friends by simply EXPLAINING (not defending, mind you) the logic behind a GW Bush policy (and I can’t stand Bush). I'm sure that I would experience a similar type of despair on the other side of the political sphere if lived in Plano, TX. But at least I got the ocean nearby.

Spainard, He says that they died because God was punishing the US because there are gay people in the country. They run around with signs thanking god for IED's and 9/11 and taunt the family of the soldier being buried at the veterans cemetary.

I'm sure that I would experience a similar type of despair on the other side of the political sphere if lived in Plano, TX. But at least I got the ocean nearby.

No, actually, Libs are more than tolerated in conservative enclaves because they are not thought of as evil-- merely silly and deluded. That's the difference. A Lib will always be able to move in conservative circles in a way conservatives couldn't in Lib circles.

>>>"Spainard, He says that they died because God was punishing the US because there are gay people in the country."

Well then I stand corrected. The far Left/right have meet at the abyss.

>No, actually, Libs are more than tolerated in >conservative enclaves because they are not >thought of as evil-- merely silly and deluded.

I may have not been clear as to the source of my frustration. It has to do with the lack of relativism and rational thought in one's take on the world. So, no, I would not be happy in an area where Clinton is thought as a traitor or homosexuals are thought as evil or evolution thought as fantasy.

Michael,

Why do you bother with this sort of nonsense? There are crazies on both the left and the right but when you get to extremes like this these people just don't matter. All you are doing is giving them attention - something they sincerely do not deserve.

It's telling to see, despite the fact that far-right radicals have killed hundreds of people in terrorist attacks (as in Atlanta and Oklahoma City), that Spaniard doesn't seem to be aware of these people.

Update: Spaniard stands corrected, which is noble. Radical Leftists and radical right-wingers are, in actions though not motivations, nearly identical. The political spectrum tends to resemble an Omega, both ends approaching each other though never meeting.

No use getting angry. Ridicule, sarcasm, and marginalization works for me.

"I believe that our Heavenly Father invented man because he was disappointed in the monkey." -- Mark Twain

Kris writes: "Why do you bother with this sort of nonsense? There are crazies on both the left and the right but when you get to extremes like this these people just don't matter."

I would have agreed with you, Kris, if I hadn't had some rather frightening personal experiences with "these people." Although they are indeed "crazies," politically, most of them are by no means crazy people in any other sense. That's what makes the phenomenon so frightening.

I'm not talking about 18-year-old students wearing Che shirts, or older people like Tom Hayden or Michael Moore or Chomsky or others who have made their lives' work the rousing of this rabble. I'm talking about my own 50-something friends, heretofore seemingly sober and sane and even politically mum, who suddenly in the last couple of years found their voices and began to howl at the moon.

No one was more stunned than I to see this. I cannot dismiss these people as "not mattering." I know too many of them. They are also too influential in the world of academics and of journalism to be considered as "not mattering."

Totten,
If I had your lack of talent, I could go to LGF and FreeRepublic and dig up the same hateful crap.
What a trivial waste of bandwith. Hack.

KateH:
"Totten,
If I had your lack of talent, I could go to LGF and FreeRepublic and dig up the same hateful crap.
What a trivial waste of bandwith. Hack."

--What's the saying? A struck dog howls the loudest?

Heh.

When you are talking about conspiracy theorists, which is mostly what MJT has presented, I'm not sure that labels like left and right have all that much meaning. Back when liberals ran the country in the 50s & 60s most conspiracy theorists gravitated towards "the right" (fluoride in the water,trilateral commission); today younger conspiracy theorists gravitate towards "the left", but in general conspiracy theorists hate whomever they think is running the world behind the scenes.

Vanya nails it.
You dont even have to go back to the 50's. Think of the nineties. I was always struck by how the rhetoric of the militia types was eerily reminiscent of the rhetoric of the sixtes left.
One thing in the favor of the leftie-type nutjobs; they tend not to be armed.

If the anti-masonic party were around today it would collect all of the insane people on the right and the left.

The right-wing militias in Idaho were all media hype. The actual members were insane but three trailors in the woods is not exactly an army.

Spaniard wrote:

Who is this "far right" we keep hearing about. Identify them please. Michael Savage? Limbaugh? Falwell? I don't know of any far rightwingers who don't believe terrorists bombed us on 9/11 and that we shouldn't be breaking things in the middle east.

Falwell, Savage, Limbaugh, that's it, keep going, you're doing good. Despite the fact that I was referring to the Pat Buchanan types in this case, certainly that lunatic Savage, Limbaugh and Falwell qualify as far-right, although they support the war.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the crap that Savage and those like him spew out daily hardly helps the GWOT. Maybe you think liberals are America-hating traitors, but I don't.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the crap that Savage and those like him spew out daily hardly helps the GWOT.

Rafique,

yeah, maybe you are wrong, but at least those rightwingers they know in what direction to aim their guns, unlike most leftists.

Actually Fred Phelps is a registered Democrat. You can find pictures of him on the internet with Al Gore if anyone actually cares.

Spaniard,

"at least those rightwingers they know in what direction to aim their guns, unlike most leftists"

Yeah, like those Leftists who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City...

...Oh, wait, that was a right-wing extremist. Woops, my bad.

Anyway, my point is: why are you trying to argue that right-wing extremists aren't as bad as left-wing extremists? Is it because you don't like being lumped in the same category as people who murder babies?

Because you'd do well to remember what that feels like the next time you tell someone that, just because they're a Democrat or a Liberal, that they have to answer for everything Michael Moore says, just because neither Michael Moore nor the Democrat like Bush very much.

Because the next time you do, remember in which end of the political spectrum Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph reside. Do you have to answer for them?

Commenter,

Learn how to read. I said "rightwinger"-- not rightwing extremists-- because Rafique said "rightwinger" i.e, Michael Savage, Limbaugh, etc. Whatever you think of rightwingers-- like Savage-- they know what direction to point their guns, no?

Also, I've never asked you, or anybody, on this blog to answer for Michael Moore. If you choose to answer for him you do so on your own volition.

My target is the Left, and in some cases Libs/Democrats. So if the shoe doesn't fit you, then I'm not talking about you! Do you think I get defensive when people go after Tim McVeigh? No, I don't, because that shoe doesn't fit me.

That's what's so amazing, that when I go after the Left, all you so-called moderates come out of the woodworks to attack me personally. You're idiots.

Actually Fred Phelps is a registered Democrat. You can find pictures of him on the internet with Al Gore if anyone actually cares.

That's because the Democrats are the Big Tent party ;). They include wacko conservatives like LaRouche and Phelps. Phelps once supported Gore but then he later called Gore a fag-lover and his suppporters picketed Gore's Dad's funeral, so I think Phelps ties to the Dems are pretty weak.

Phelps once supported Gore but then he later called Gore a fag-lover..."

LMAO! [wipes away tears] Thank you for that, vanya.

Spaniard: "That's what's so amazing, that when I go after the Left, all you so-called moderates come out of the woodworks to attack me personally. You're idiots."

And? ;-)

Michael -- this isn't that far from the mainstream of the Democratic Party.

DNC HQ had anti-semitic fliers blaming 9/11 on "the jews" and Conyer's fantasy impeachment hearings featured anti-Semites Jim Moran and some nutjob ex-CIA guy saying that 9/11 was a "jewish conspiracy" and complaining that Tenet called him anti-Semitic. Conyers didn't complain, neither did Dean, until the Washington Post reported it in scathing terms.

I saw on CNN Live 8 coverage "9/11 -- Inside Job/frameup" which went uncommented. I don't think these attitudes are far from the mainstream. Wasn't it Barbara Lee that called 9/11 a "plane accident?"

Everything you listed could well have come from Michael Moore, Moveon (which got their candidate Dean into DNC chair), ANSWER, Soros, or other loonies.

The accusations you just levied are outrageous & fundamentally false.

"DNC HQ had anti-semitic fliers blaming 9/11 on "the jews" and Conyer's fantasy impeachment hearings featured anti-Semites"

False: A bunch of radical doucheniks were passing out fliers to anyone who would take them in front of DNC headquarters with this 'Jewish conspiracy' nonsense. The fliers were neither produced by the DNC, passed out by the DNC nor endorsed by the DNC. And upon finding out what they were they were immediately destroyed/expelled.

"Jim Moran and some nutjob ex-CIA guy saying that 9/11 was a "jewish conspiracy" "

False: Maliciously false. At no time during the hearing was 9/11 even discussed in depth, much less referred to even in passing as a 'Jewish Conspiracy' please reproduce the text of the hearings where either of those two or anyone else at the hearing comes close to referring to 9/11 as a "Jewish Conspiracy" If you are going to throw malicious charges like this you had better start backing them upwith evidence.

Jim Moran and the CIA guy were discussing the American rationales for war in Iraq & the CIA guy said he felt it was a combination of A: Oil Interests B: America's relationship with Israel, and C: Neoconservative foreign policy idealogy.

You can certainly disagree, I know I do. I think the Israel card is overplayed and I too felt the CIA guy's testimony bordered on Anti-Israelism and Anti-Semitism, but it's also a far cry from proclaiming anything as a "Jewish Conspiracy" much less 9/11 which wasn't even a subject at the freaking conference.

"Conyers didn't complain, neither did Dean, until the Washington Post reported it in scathing terms."

False: Since we've established that no 'Jewish Conspiracy' talk was involved, you are correct, Conyers felt no obligation to the CIA guy implying that part of the rationale for the Iraqi war was the U.S.'s Iraqi alliance. Howard Dean also felt no objection to this hearing. He was however VERY displeased when he heard that anything remotely anti-semitic would come close to DNC HQ and he condemned the fliers explicitly, as did Barney Frank, as did Nancy Pelosi. Howard Dean may be alot of unfortunate things, but an anti-semite isn't one of them.

Thanks for your service to the truth Dustin. I bet it wont make any difference though. They'll probably just repeat the same lies tomorrow. Thats the way they play the game....

>>I think it is valid, however, to Point out that Bin-Laden and those enamoured with his ideology did more than any other group of individuals to ensure the reelection of Bush in 2004. <<

The group most responsible for getting Bush elected are the Democrats, whose choice of candidate and spectacular and amusing self-destructive antics drove moderates like me screaming from the fold to vote for GWB.

Laurie K.

"He was however VERY displeased when he heard that anything remotely anti-semitic would come close to DNC HQ and he condemned the fliers explicitly, as did Barney Frank, as did Nancy Pelosi. Howard Dean may be alot of unfortunate things, but an anti-semite isn't one of them."

Certainly not when people are looking...

The problem is that people like those MJT quoted have a disproportionate impact on the Democratic Party.

Dustin,
I suppose you will also ignore Dean's unwillingness to refute the theory that Pres Bush knew about 9/11 in advance.

"Certainly not when people are looking..."

Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

"The problem is that people like those MJT quoted have a disproportionate impact on the Democratic Party."

No they don't. I know this trope is expounded quite often by those lazy or malicous enough to allocate any radical or left wing belief with the mainstream politics of the United States Democratic party, but this isn't FreeRepublic, it's Totten's personal weblog full of visitors of all political stripes and you will have to substantiate such claims with evidence.

"I suppose you will also ignore Dean's unwillingness to refute the theory that Pres Bush knew about 9/11 in advance."

I am unaware that Howard Dean subscribed to any such theory. If you will reproduce any text or document in which Howard Dean implies that George Bush knew about 9/11 or did nothing, or was asked to repudiate such a belief and refused I will respond in kind.

Dean said it was an "interesting" theory, but that it can't be proved [my my, how gracious of him]. Yes, interesting.

This is the guy the moonbats wanted for president.

Sometimes the Democratic Talking Points are indistinguishable from the leftist garbage you quoted. Once the left actually stood for principle. Now it's just a group of brain addled reactionaries trying to stop the world from turning.

Dustin,
LOL!! You apparently haven't paid attention to the Democratic primaries the past few elections!!

Spaniard,

Do you have any textual evidence that presents Howard Dean saying this? I'm not saying that you are lying but I think we've established in this thread how uncredible anecdotal evidence can be.

Dustpan Parkway,

Your utterly vapid and painfully cliched retort wouldn't be so pathetic if it weren't for the fact that you had to hide behind a mock moniker to say it. I have no problem with you hiding behind a pseudonym until you are no longer embarassed to have your juvenile politics linked with your name, but please leave my name out of it.

exhelodrvr,

I don't know who you are, but I would wager that I have a little more knowledge of the actual inner workings and beliefs of the Democratic party on State and National levels than you do.

Dustin,
I have a VERY hard time believing that you are not aware of Howard Dean's interview that I referenced above, especially if you claim to be so familiar with Democratic politics.
You can find the below excerpt at any number of sites.
Now, this clip was repeated on virtually every news show nationally when it happened, and was referred to very frequently for a significant period afterwards, and you were unaware of it? LOL!

****************************************
"Dean said on Monday that President Bush is withholding documents related to 9/11 because they may show he knew what was coming.

"The most interesting theory that I've heard so far – which is nothing more than a theory, it can't be proved – is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis," Dean told a caller to Washington, D.C's "Diane Rehm Show," according to a transcript obtained by Opinion Journal.com."
*****************************************

Dustin,

He cleverly introduces the theory and then "responsibly" admits it can't be proved. Plausible deniability. And then when pressed further says he personally doesn't believe it but that others do.

The guy is a bomb thrower, which might work for political hacks, but not for presidential candidates.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/120803deandefends.html

Thanks for the citation.

I believe Chairman Dean is referring to the very real issue that the U.S. had intelligence information that Al Quaeda was planning an attack and ignored it or didn't give it much credence. Just how substantial and specific this intelligence was is debatable and really unreliable but I think only the fringe of the fringe were insinuating that Bush knew an attack was definitely coming and chose to ignore it or not prepare for whatever nefarious reasons.

Dr. Dean said he didn't believe in the theory (and I believe him) but the way he casually introduced it on the Diane Rehm show was rather underhanded. I'm not here to defend the virgin honor of Howard Dean; I dislike him, I wouldn't vote for him, He has no political acumen, is a public relations nightmare and there were 4 other people I'd rather have as Chairman of the DNC than him, but whatever Dean is, an Anti-Semite he is not.

Dustin,

I'm glad you can appreciate what he did. Re intelligence, there's a difference between receiving intelligence about an attack vs "knowing" of an impending attack. His comment referred to the latter, and yes, it was underhanded. It was a bit much, even for Dean.

Dean is not an anti-semite but he will (in the next two years) say something to impress a crowd that everyone (excluding the true-blue) will consider anti-semetic.

You all know that Howard Dean's wife is Jewish, right?

I can't believe some bozo called you a hack, Michael; you remain the most readable writer around.

But I haven't see you trash Sen. Durbin, the 2nd highest ranking Dem Senator, for drawing a comparison between US Soldiers and Nazis; similar to Amnesty calling Gitmo the world's "new Gulag".

Dustin R., a sitting Senator is NOT "fringe of the fringe," the chair of the DNC is not fringe, the guy who sits next to Pres. Carter at the national convention is not fringe, a black Dem candidate for President who has been involved in supporting anti-Jewish riots is not fringe.

Perhaps, in your dreams, they are fringe.

Also funny is how, when Durbin is quoted, a good liberal (like MJT) will twist the words to mean what MJT wants: "better treatment for prisoners, obviously." Well, most of such good liberal messages are NOT obvious to me in the words quoted. In fact, it seems more obvious to me that Durbin really thinks that Bush=Hitler, and wants neo-neo-con's 50ish friends to think that (and keep howling), but wants to beat Bush in a slimy political way that allows deniability, like Dean essentially accusing Bush of knowing about 9/11.

What the Dems need to be doing is talking about how to most successfully make Iraq a democracy, while accepting the fact that imperfect people will be taking whatever actions are taken.

It's not just Indymedia or even The Guardian that's coming up with this 'blame the leaders' stance. A woman who was actually there for the bombing was interviewed on the BBC last night regarding the attacks on London and even she decided to point the finger at Blair/Bush. People just can't seem to accept that these people are f'ing crazy and not exactly prone to deductive reasoning.

"Well, most of such good liberal messages are NOT obvious to me in the words quoted."

Because you dont want them to be, obviously.

Just another ranter, drunk on outrage....how boring is that!

I actually posted a comment on one of the threads yesterday night, detailing how wroing I thought everyone was. The tone was still a hell of a lot more civilized than any of the other posts on there, especially those of the conspiracy theorists. My post has since been removed. Can't expect any extremist from either side to keep an open mind, I know, but I still have to choke back all the "freedom of speech" faux-outrage. Like they give a damn anyway.

What is amusing is several of the comments here are on the 'far side' of both ends, but they right...uh, write as if they believe they are the one in the main stream.

Follow the anger.

Indymedia, DU and the Kos Kids are how the Democratic Party talks when it thinks no one else is listening. That's why I left the party after 30 years.

While I generally welcome the inclusive nature of the attempts to equate both the far left and the far right as equally idiotic and irrelevant,it is an unfortunate fact that I almost never encounter any of these far right types and I seem to be inundated by those on the far left.I just don't move in those Timothy McVeigh/Eric Rudolph circles. And I don't bother with Rush or Fox News.But a quick glance at the comments sections of respected blogs like The Washington Monthly and the Daily Kos is evidence that the loony left is very pervasive.With Instapundit and Roger Simon regarded as right-wing,I don't find myself wandering any further in that direction.And in my social circle,left-wing remnants of the 60s and 70s totally outnumber Christian extremists. So while I can obviously seek out right-wing stuff if I choose to,the loony left seems to be part of the normal landscape.

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