June 30, 2005
Eavesdropping on Iraqis
Those of you familiar with the Friends of Democracy site already know what’s it about. Essays from the Iraqi Arabic-language blogosphere are translated and sent to me. I then edit and publish them.
We had a bit of a problem with our old translator, so the posting has been sporadic for quite a while. But we have a new translator now – I should say here that he’s doing a terrific job - and new posts are being published more regularly.
Iraqis who blog in English are aware that their audience is primarily Western. Iraqis who blog in Arabic are talking to each other in their own language. While editing the site I feel like I’m eavesdropping on them and helping you eavesdrop on them too.
Today I published a piece by an Iraqi named Shirko. He declares Syria an enemy state and demands regime-change in Damascus. He’s saying this to his fellow Iraqis. In Arabic. Soon they will be sovereign. And they will have their own Western-trained army. Read Shirko’s essay with those things in mind.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at June 30, 2005 08:01 PMThere's a reason we have not given the Iraqi army any tanks, artillery, or fighter bombers.
They are a long way from being a truly western army.
Posted by: Aaron at June 30, 2005 09:43 PMThis really makes me think. I was definitely not for the war when it came about, but a good friend of mine and fellow coworker believed that the US had to use their might to make right. We debated and found common ground that while the war was not good, the Iraqi people being freed from Saddam's clutches was a good thing. This caused a great amount of conflict for me because how else would Saddam have been ousted? Sure, we've heard that the empire was crumbling, but who can really say for sure.
The only thing I can tell you now is that while I read these posts I continue to struggle with our rush to go to war, and I still celebrate a free Iraq. And perhaps that stuggle is a good thing.
Posted by: Justin Gardner at June 30, 2005 10:00 PMJustin: I continue to struggle with our rush to go to war, and I still celebrate a free Iraq
That's good enough for me. I wish everyone who opposed the war could look at it that way.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 30, 2005 10:35 PMMichael -
Shirko's essay raises a point I haven't begun to think of; too much work, too little opportunity to keep up with the world...
What happens after we do indeed pack our trash and come home? The conditions we have set are pretty simple (as definitions go): a self governing, sovereign Iraq capable of providing for its own security.
Free nations execute policy that originates as public will.
The tradition of "payback" in the mideastern cultures makes our Hatfield-McCoy type historical incidents look positively bucolic.
Iraq doesn't need a western equipped army to beat the hell out of any of its neighbors. Read Victor Davis Hanson - it is western ideas like common cause, just war, and volunteer soldiers that make for winning armies.
Syria has much to answer for. This could get interesting.
Posted by: TmjUtah at June 30, 2005 10:49 PMTMJUtah,
Yes, you do need the tanks, artillery, and fighetr bombers to win a war, not just elan or "western" bushido.
I guess they could arm the Kurds in Syria and work those kind of angles.
We will eventually arm them with the good stuff, though.
Posted by: Aaron at July 1, 2005 02:16 AMWhen I was in Iraq, I worked very closely with Iraqi security forces and the quality/style of translators was always a factor. At one point I had two translators, both offering interesting insights into our normal perceptions of pervasiveness of American culture.
One, "Slim", obviously learned english from soldiers and bootleg DVDs. His name came from his love of rapper Eminem, plus the fact that he was a little chubby.
The other, a university student named Kassim, was working on his masters in English, and his thesis was on U.S. playwright Eugene O'neil, whom he idolized.
It brought me slight comfort to learn our influence wasn't restricted to McDonalds and CocaCola.
By the way, they do field a couple mechanized brigades, with a small number of tanks. Alot of APCs, also. Their airforce is currently being trained on helicopters and C-130s. I don't know about artillery.
How come Shirko gets the 9/11-Iraq connection but the Democratic Party and the MSM do not?
The world is a weird place.
Posted by: Lancer at July 1, 2005 06:41 AMIt's going to be very interesting when we reach the point when Iraqis can exert their own foreign policy in the region. The repercussions on Syria, as well as on Iran and Saudi Arabia, may be immense. I don't think a three-front war of vengeance would be a good idea, but that's highly unlikely.
But how it will play out is unpredictable at this point. For instance: there are a large number of Shia in Saudi Arabia, who have their own grievances against the ruling family. It may be more likely these Shia might find something in common with Shia in southern Iraq than that Iran influences these same Iraqis -- a scenaro which was at one time assumed by some to be virtually a done deal.
Let Iraqis be Iraqis. That will be the next step. Then hope for the best.
Posted by: Todd Grimson at July 1, 2005 06:50 AMLancer,
"How come Shirko gets the 9/11-Iraq connection but the Democratic Party and the MSM do not? "
That was my first thought, too.
Posted by: exhelodrvr at July 1, 2005 07:09 AMI have long believed that a free Iraq will be VERY intolerant of dictatorship neighbors sending suiciders into Iraq to kill Iraqis so as to establish death squad gov't.
Shirko:
The remnants of the Baath in Iraq are doing exactly the same thing. They spread fear and violence in Iraq in order to tell Iraqis that they cannot live in peace or enjoy stability and security without the Baath Party as ruler.
The choices of gov't are basically two: democracy or death squad. I wish the Iraqi people all the best in choosing democracy.
Unfortunately, that means fighting, killing, dying; and even occassionally killing an innocent, for freedom and democracy.
The Iraqis will take over the prisons, first (wonder how soon Amnesty, or MJT, will complain about treatment); and prolly get a lot better/ actionable, info than the kid gloves US no-touch (no-tough typo true, too!) policy. Some 2 - 6 months after their constitution is approved, the Iraqi neighbors will be VERY aware of a (mostly volunteer?) Iraqi army, trained and supported by the US.
Plus, um, the US Army won't be so needed for Iraq stability.
Israel vs. Syria; US vs. Iran; Iraq vs. Saudi Arabia. It won't be a 3-front Iraq only issue. 2006 could be VERY interesting.
Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at July 1, 2005 07:10 AMInstead of hoping that Syrian Baathists are overthrown by their neighbor's new "western trained army" -- why don't we hope for the Syrian people to overthrow the Baathists themselves? The last Shia-Sunni war in the area in the eighties did little to improve the situation for anybody.
Actually, what seems more likely is that to the extent Iraq actually does become sovereign and able to protect itself, it will try to make deals with whoever rules the roost in Syria and Iran, in order to help close down the open borders that allow foreign jihadists and weapons to pour into Iraq.
Posted by: Markus rose at July 1, 2005 07:19 AMAaron -
Thirty percent of the oil (probably more) in the mideast will buy a lot of hardware.
Markus -
I agree that it would best if the Syrians were able to reform themselves. The problem is that a free Iraq that exists as a functioning democracy is every bit as lethal to the regimes on its borders as would be an Iraq run by an agressive dictator intent on attack.
A free Iraq next door invites brain drain, economic divestment, and an example to the serfs of just what is truly possible... even in the mideast. I'm afraid there's not much room to make deals that would do the thugs any good at all.
Iraq is the keystone of victory or defeat against Islamist terror. Or at least the last best option short of a war of annihilation.
Posted by: TmjUtah at July 1, 2005 07:39 AMLancer,
"How come Shirko gets the 9/11-Iraq connection but the Democratic Party and the MSM do not?
The world is a weird place."
Not at all. The world seems about the same as always. The disagreement between the left and right concerning the 9/11-Iraq connection boils down to simple primate response, based in the second-circuit (Leary model), anal-territorial (Freud) with some of Jung's semantic circuit included.
Mostly, if you watch monkeys, you can watch dems and repubs or left vs right and see exactly the same sort of nonsense. Monkeys throw poo, rocks etc (and mark their territory with excertions) and screech "eee eee ohhohh ahha ahh", humans throw bullets, bombs, airplanes or what have you (and mark their territory with ink excreted on paper) and screech "Bush=Hitler" or "Yer wit' us or again' us".
The Pro-Democracy Iraqis however, are acting on their biosurvival "first circuit", which is a more basic "fight or flee" sort of circuit as well as second and thrid circuit when interacting with the Insurgency and Jihadists.
When humans forget that they're primates, the world seems strange.
Posted by: Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord at July 1, 2005 07:39 AMAnother note on interpreters closer to the topic...again, just an anecdotal data point. Two others (a Kurd and a devout Sunnit from Mosul) worked with us at an Iraq training base that was visited by Donald Rumsfeld in early January just before the elections. Both told me if given a few minutes to present their opinion to our Secdef they would encourage him to press for the invasion of both Syria and Iran; they saw them as the primary movers behind the insurgency and were pretty pissed about it.
Posted by: at July 1, 2005 08:03 AMFor instance: there are a large number of Shia in Saudi Arabia, who have their own grievances against the ruling family.
Much of the Saudi oil is in the Shia areas along the Persian Gulf. Likewise much of the Iranian oil is in the Arab areas along the gulf. Hmmm.
As to Syria, I note that with all the terrorist confessions of Syrian affiliation shown on Iraqi TV, the buildup of animosity was pretty much a given. I confess to a certain skepticism regarding those confessions, but perhaps the Syrian involvement is as large as portrayed. Anyway, Iraq is larger, has a larger population, is potentially richer, and will soon have a national government of the people. Syria could be in trouble; certainly its disproportionate influence in the area will decline.
Posted by: chuck at July 1, 2005 10:09 AMchuck,
yes, all good points. and given the revelation that the new prez of iran was once a hostage-taker (though this is not entirely clarified despite the photos) american public opinion may become more inflamed than usual vs the mullahs as they seek nuclear bombs.
and these days propaganda rules.
i dont think jimmy carter wll enjoy any re-examination of the iran hostage crisis and his weak and incompetent response.
Posted by: Todd Grimson at July 1, 2005 01:53 PMtosk,
i hope youre not taking chimpanzee society or culture lightly. please do not mock our simian brothers (and sisters).
my favorite chimpanzee artist, for instance, congo, painted pictures very similar to those (in color) done by franz kline. bozo also did some excellent work, characterized by remarkable variations on the basic theme of crossed clusters.
the "disruptive gesture" has not lost its relevance fifty years after monkey art first burst upon the scene.
Posted by: Todd Grimson at July 1, 2005 02:09 PMTMJUtah,
Maybe they will follow Rumsfield and just buy Strykers.
Posted by: Aaron at July 2, 2005 10:16 AMGood point Justin; they've said Castro's rule was crumbling since the JFK days. And Castro wasn't sitting on trillions in oil.
Of course, only miles of ocean keep Castro in power. If Cuba was connected to FL, 3/4 of the Cuban population would just walk out.
Posted by: TallDave at July 2, 2005 11:11 AM
How come you don't see fit to mention that Shirko is a Kurd? This seems like vital information when trying to guess, say, how representative his viewpoint might be among Iraqis or how open most of them would be to his arguments.
Posted by: Jeff at July 2, 2005 07:20 PMIsn't Shirko a Kurdish name? Seems relatively obvious. It's not like he's hiding the fact.
Posted by: TallDave at July 2, 2005 08:18 PMHow come Shirko gets the 9/11-Iraq connection but the Democratic Party and the MSM do not?
Maybe because there is no connection apart from the Bush administration's wishful thinking and intentionally misleading rhetoric. The "War on Terror" is a lame attempt at creating a carte blanche for anything and everything the WH wants to do, nothing else. 9/11 gave them that chance and they are milking it still.
That said, everybody with half a brain got the 9/11-SaudiArabia/Pakistan connection just fine, thank you, except for the Prez, who prefers to hold hands with the leaders of those countries.
Posted by: novakant at July 3, 2005 07:50 AMNovakent, you might be more persuasive if you cast your arguments against Bush as being simply errors of strategy and tactics, instead of being the machinations of power-mad imbeciles.
I know that might mean hiding your true feelings a bit, but a lot of people are uncomfortable listening to argument which, at the core, sound like paranoid rantings. So if your point is to change minds, please consider the minds you might change, and package your arguments appropriately.
No charge for the advice from the center.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 08:20 AMWell, seeing presumably intelligent and well-informed people still playing the 9/11-Iraq angle just makes me angry, so this post was not exactly designed to win people over. Angry, because a well-informed public is one of the pillars of democracy (yeah, call me naive, but still)and intentionally feeding them disinformation is an attack on this already inherently fragile system.
As for paranoid rantings as a rhetorical device, it seemed to have worked well enough for Cheney et al when they coaxed a majority of the American public into supporting the war by going on about Saddam's nukes, unmanned drones delivering chemical agents over US cities and whathaveyou.
Yet, when I'm in a cynical enough mood, I will grant that this is just politics and has always been that way and my main criticism lies with the flawed implementation and flabbergasting incompetency with which this whole project was botched. Since I was convinced early on that they would go through with it no-matter-what, I hoped they would at least do it right and not produce a mess like we're in currently.
It seems we might find some common ground in this regard. Greetings from the European center.
Posted by: novakant at July 3, 2005 09:21 AMWell, seeing presumably intelligent and well-informed people still playing the 9/11-Iraq angle just makes me angry...
It's just barely conceivable that two different intelligent and well-informed people can look at a complex situation and come to different conclusions.
For instance, if you conclude that the entire region needs to be transformed, the smart thing to do is to then force change where the transformation would be easiest. (Mind you, I'm not saying easy, just easiest.)
I think Michael was impressed that Shirko buys the opening premise, and believes that as a person from within the region, Shirko's opionion is particulary interesting.
But it's always good to hear from the European center.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 12:30 PMnavakant -
I never thought that Saddam Hussein participated in the active planning of 9/11. I never saw or heard any administration official make that case, either.
What is implicit in our doctrine and stategy to defeat terrorism is that the Hussein regime was just another piece of the puzzle in a region that manages to export two commodities (petroleum products and Islamic terrorists) and operates domestically as a morass of despotism, backwardness, and human misery that serves as the manufactory for the terrorists.
Baathists in Iraq and Syria, the corrupt and venal Sauds paying off Wahabbis to stay in power, the Palestinian victims of the failure inherent in Arab nationalism along communist/socialist lines... they are part and parcel compressed inside a box that no longer contains them.
If it were a matter of buying their oil and ignoring what happened inside their countries we would do it. We propped up "our guys" in the name of stability; we did that for the better part of the last century. "Stability" was the internationally agreed objective that was worth the murder, subjugation, and barbarism by which that region was governed. With the evaporation of time, speed, and distance barriers to travel and communication we know longer enjoy that cynical luxury.
I'm as conservative a commenter as any that ever post here. I have NEVER had an interest in, or supported, seeing an American Empire consciously imposed on anyone by force of arms.
But I understand that our existence as a vibrant, successful, and hugely powerful economy and democracy stands as the force that the jihadists must destroy in order to continue to exist.
I choose to not go gently into that good night of western guilt and postmodern moral relativism. I choose to stand in support of the worth of every individual, and the God given right of every man to choose his religion and path to happiness with the caveat that those choices do not involve tyranny over others.
They have chosen their path. The realization of their ambition equates with the death of civilization.
They shall not succeed.
Parse the connections all you want. The absence of a published table of organization laying out formal links of command, control, or coordination between any random regime or terrorist group is a moot point. There exists in that part of the world an amalgam of barbarism, totalitarianism, and hopelessness that generates people and organizations that exist soley to see my way of life, and the lives of my fellow citizens, destroyed in order that they may continue to live in tribalism and medeival squalor.
They must be confronted. They must be defeated. And if we can do it by taking out the key players at the top of the pecking order while introducing ideals and mechanisms of representative democracy, more power to us. If we fail in this solution because of the petty, nearsighted domestic political machiniations of a failed national party, the war will not be over by any means. The enemy will still exist, but it will still exist in an unbearable compression brought on not by our force of arms brought to bear directly on them, but by the ever increasing friction that continues to build wherever free men encounter despots.
The victory of freedom is assured; jihad exists only as a suicidal pursuit to prop up a system less viable than any flavor of Marxism ever tried. The cost, to both sides, is the question. They cannot coexist with freedom; they must attack. And should we pull back from our current military and diplomatic efforts now in the hope we might achieve some sort of peace we will only set the stage for attacks whose scope will dwarf 9/11.
We can free them and live as neighbors travelling on parallel but hopefully non-conflicting paths of democracy. Or, in retaliation for a future attack so heinous and destructive we can't afford to fight a neat or precise war, we can kill them all.
History shows the costs possible when a just war is abandoned. The track record of our progressives when it comes to ensuring the best outcomes for indigenous peoples, frankly, sucks.
I'd rather not see all the people who stepped forward to attempt to form a democratic Iraq or any other Arab or Islamic democracy abandoned to the Baathists and the jihadis.
It's too far to the water and no way there would be enough boats, anyway.
Posted by: TmjUtah at July 3, 2005 12:40 PMnovakant -
And please accept my profound apologies for mispelling your name. No disrespect was intended; I was writing quick.
Posted by: TmjUtah at July 3, 2005 12:56 PMI thought liberals were supposed to be the nuanced ones? Or is that only when it suits their need?
9/11 and Iraq? Not even the same ball park. But filibusters are part of the Constitution. Yeah. Guess I'm just a dumb red stater who can't understand these things.
Posted by: Court at July 3, 2005 01:54 PMThere is a very long list of 9/11 - Iraq connections detailed in Stephen Hayes' book, but the only ones the President has really made are that
1) we need to democratize the Mideast to prevent another 9/11.
2) we're fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq
I think these two are why we see so many centrists backing the war.
Posted by: TallDave at July 3, 2005 03:08 PMAmericans never wanted to be a superpower, or undertake this mission to democratize the world that started with FDR. We had it forced on us. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 made it clear the world wouldn't leave us out of its dysfunctional behaviors.
Posted by: TallDave at July 3, 2005 03:11 PMIf Iraq was worth invading, if it's worth staying for the long haul, then it's worth drafting young men and women to the service.
There's no other way to look at it.
We certainly can't pull troops out of Korea and other commitments. We can't compromise our security, that way, can we?
It's time for all Americans to participate in our defense - not just the few who volunteered (and many before Iraq who were caught by stop loss). After all, we are all benefiting from the great boost to national security that the Iraq invasion has brought to us.
Posted by: NeoDude at July 3, 2005 03:25 PMIt don't look like Syria, Saudi Arabia and Jordan are going to cut the money or bodies that support the Iraqi Sunni population....we better get another war brewing or Iraq will become a chaotic society.
Posted by: NeoDude at July 3, 2005 03:32 PMNeoDude, time to break out some B-52s and bunker busters, dontcha think?
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 03:39 PMOr, while we're at it, since you insist on being an ass, why not just nuke 'em till they glow? Cheaper than a draft, and we can hire Halliburton to go in and get the oil flowing again.
Which WILL happen should, say, Iran sneak one past us.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 03:42 PMthen it's worth drafting young men and women to the service.
The military doesn't want a draft (they say volunteers make far better soldiers), the commanders in Iraq haven't asked for more troops, and we're still defending Germany from a defunct Soviet Army.
Posted by: TallDave at July 3, 2005 03:45 PMTallDave, the draft is something Vietnam nostalgists wave around when they're out of ideas.
The real world's go nuthin' to do with it.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 03:55 PMI'm not being sarcastic about the draft, as someone suggested up thread.
I am all for defense of the country. I am a patriot.
I think invading Iraq was a deliberate blunder of gargantuan proportions, but I wholly supported Afghanistan (though I think that the prosecution of that effort was also a massive blunder).
I am just saying that if I am wrong and Iraq really does play a vital role in the defense of this nation then we should absolutely have no hesitation whatsoever to call up the necessary resources, from additional tax dollars to personnel.
That is what America does, always has done, in times of war and national emergency. And citizens have always risen to the occasion.
Brie eating Euro trash can participate in compulsory service, but tough Americans cannot, interesting.......
And yes, I do think that instituting the draft will separate the foreign policy wheat from the foreign policy chaff.
Americans will fight when the country needs them, when the world needs them. But they will not fight long when they see no obvious necessity.
When you are against the draft you are tacitly admitting that Iraq was not a national emergency, a serious threat, nor a necessity. You are admitting that you do not like the draft because, by involving the citizens, generally, in wars of choice based on the designs of the rich and well positioned and the theories of their cynical ivory tower hand-maidens that you might get have a rebellion.
Folks, this is our country, not Bush's. Invest the citizens and they'll make the right choices.
Posted by: NeoDude at July 3, 2005 04:25 PMI'm not being sarcastic about the draft, as someone suggested up thread.
I am all for defense of the country. I am a patriot.
I think invading Iraq was a deliberate blunder of gargantuan proportions, but I wholly supported Afghanistan (though I think that the prosecution of that effort was also a massive blunder).
I am just saying that if I am wrong and Iraq really does play a vital role in the defense of this nation then we should absolutely have no hesitation whatsoever to call up the necessary resources, from additional tax dollars to personnel.
That is what America does, always has done, in times of war and national emergency. And citizens have always risen to the occasion.
Brie eating Euro trash can participate in compulsory service, but tough Americans cannot, interesting.......
And yes, I do think that instituting the draft will separate the foreign policy wheat from the foreign policy chaff.
Americans will fight when the country needs them, when the world needs them. But they will not fight long when they see no obvious necessity.
When you are against the draft you are tacitly admitting that Iraq was not a national emergency, a serious threat, nor a necessity. You are admitting that you do not like the draft because, by involving the citizens, generally, in wars of choice based on the designs of the rich and well positioned and the theories of their cynical ivory tower hand-maidens that you might get have a rebellion.
Folks, this is our country, not Bush's. Invest the citizens and they'll make the right choices.
Posted by: NeoDude at July 3, 2005 04:26 PMI'm not being sarcastic about the draft, as someone suggested up thread.
I am all for defense of the country. I am a patriot.
I think invading Iraq was a deliberate blunder of gargantuan proportions, but I wholly supported Afghanistan (though I think that the prosecution of that effort was also a massive blunder).
I am just saying that if I am wrong and Iraq really does play a vital role in the defense of this nation then we should absolutely have no hesitation whatsoever to call up the necessary resources, from additional tax dollars to personnel.
That is what America does, always has done, in times of war and national emergency. And citizens have always risen to the occasion.
Brie eating Euro trash can participate in compulsory service, but tough Americans cannot, interesting.......
And yes, I do think that instituting the draft will separate the foreign policy wheat from the foreign policy chaff.
Americans will fight when the country needs them, when the world needs them. But they will not fight long when they see no obvious necessity.
When you are against the draft you are tacitly admitting that Iraq was not a national emergency, a serious threat, nor a necessity. You are admitting that you do not like the draft because, by involving the citizens, generally, in wars of choice based on the designs of the rich and well positioned and the theories of their cynical ivory tower hand-maidens that you might get have a rebellion.
Folks, this is our country, not Bush's. Invest the citizens and they'll make the right choices.
Posted by: PostDude at July 3, 2005 04:28 PMI'm not being sarcastic about the draft, as someone suggested up thread.
I am all for defense of the country. I am a patriot.
I think invading Iraq was a deliberate blunder of gargantuan proportions, but I wholly supported Afghanistan (though I think that the prosecution of that effort was also a massive blunder).
I am just saying that if I am wrong and Iraq really does play a vital role in the defense of this nation then we should absolutely have no hesitation whatsoever to call up the necessary resources, from additional tax dollars to personnel.
That is what America does, always has done, in times of war and national emergency. And citizens have always risen to the occasion.
Brie eating Euro trash can participate in compulsory service, but tough Americans cannot, interesting.......
And yes, I do think that instituting the draft will separate the foreign policy wheat from the foreign policy chaff.
Americans will fight when the country needs them, when the world needs them. But they will not fight long when they see no obvious necessity.
When you are against the draft you are tacitly admitting that Iraq was not a national emergency, a serious threat, nor a necessity.
You are admitting that you do not like the draft because, by involving the citizens, generally, in wars of choice based on the designs of the rich and well positioned and the theories of their cynical ivory tower hand-maidens that you might get have a rebellion.
Folks, this is our country, not Bush's. Invest the citizens and they'll make the right choices.
Posted by: PostDude at July 3, 2005 04:44 PMYou seem to be a patriot as long as that doesnt mean agreeing with U.S. policy. When you suggest a believable alternative, I'll listen, whether you're neo- or post-patriot. Until then, I have my doubts.
(If it's really important, I don't suppose you'd mind the parking lot approach to the middle east, right neo/post?)
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 04:44 PMWhen you are against the draft you are tacitly admitting that Iraq was not a national emergency, a serious threat, nor a necessity.
What bullshit.
We need an effective military. Incorporating a draft is not the best way to achieve that end, and the scope of the current conflict does not remotely suggest the need for one.
Generals don't want it. The citizenry doesn't support it. The contemporary call for reinstating the draft exists nowhere but in the talking points memos of leftwing groups or moonbat congressmen intent of exploring every available avenue to prevent a victory from accruing any possible political credit to the Bush administration.
Talk about who is or who isn't serious. Right.
I'm dead serious about supporting our troops and seeing this war pursued to a victory - and seeing that victory defined in part by the establishment of funtioning democracies where none have existed before. I have purchased (with others) tools such as high-end rifle scopes and other optics for units in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I have paid for school supplies and text books in Kurdistan. And my tax dollars may still be diluted through endless pork projects and wastes of public money like NPR/PBS, and paying for a Democratic caucus, but with this administration I know that at least some few pennies make it through to the fight.
Posted by: TmjUtah at July 3, 2005 04:52 PMTmjUtah, it's just a debating tactic. You're right in everything you say; keep on smashing him with the facts, and I'll keep hammering on the logical consequences of his arguments.
It's fun, and possibly theraputic.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 04:58 PMFun? Maybe. I can't fight, but I can talk in support of the effort.
Therepeutic? I've got agree with you there; either that, or I need to seek a support group for posting addiction.
"I am just saying that if I am wrong and Iraq really does play a vital role in the defense of this nation then we should absolutely have no hesitation whatsoever to call up the necessary resources, from additional tax dollars to personnel."
The president of the United States and congress thought that Iraq was an unacceptable threat to the extent they authorized the invasion of the country.
What part of that fails to satisfy the "really vital role", especially in light of the twelve years of fruitless babysitting we conducted while the U.N. was paid off?
I'm willing to see cuts in social serivices, post office construction, NPR, PBS, and congress's budget before raising any taxes across the board. I'd like to see the Republicans exercise some fiscal control as a majority. If you want to find a point on which we might agree, you'll find MUCH richer ground where spending is concerned.
Or... do we need a draft as a remedy for failed policy? Now THAT sounds Vietnamesque - which is exactly why this administration/congress/people will not stand for it to happen.
Posted by: TmjUtah at July 3, 2005 06:17 PMYou guys are begining to sound like nihilistic wimps...soft right-wingers. Consumer-like sacrifices? , Yeah, just like they did for WW2...they went to malls and the internet to support the battle against Hitler. The American population purchased trinkets and dolls with their tax-breaks.
Close to sixty million Americans voted for George W. Bush.... the idea that Bush could not (or will not) go on a "60 stops in 60 days" recruitment tour in those areas that constitute his political base and come up with a couple of hundred thousand new recruits is rather alarming. Bush needs to tell his supporters that this war is not just important enough to send other people to fight and die in, he needs to tell them that its important enough for them to make sacrifices.
Posted by: PostDude at July 3, 2005 07:51 PMWell, Postdude, you'll be happy to hear the military goes about 70-80% Republican by most estimates. So the people that wanted Bush to go to war are pretty much the people doing the job.
If the commanders on the ground in Iraq say they need more troops, they'll get them. Till then, we're not asking you to join up, but how about not kicking our troops in the teeth with remarks like "I think that the prosecution of that effort was also a massive blunder."
Posted by: TallDave at July 3, 2005 08:02 PMSo you gals just enjoying advocating for wars you really, deep down inside, where God can see your soul, don't believe in?
Posted by: PostDude at July 3, 2005 08:07 PMOf course you are right Post-dude. The way they characterize a draft - as if it is some insane notion that only troublemaking democrats could embrace - is really bizarre.
They run from the idea because they understand perfectly the consequences. A majority of Americans think the war a mistake. So long as it is only volunteers, who have willingly placed themselves at the disposal of the president, then the war can proceed, irrespective of the popular will. But if service is compulsory, then the people will be heard, loud and clear.
The American people are willing to accept a draft when they believe that the nation faces imminent threats. WWII, and the cold war, for example. But when the nation's leaders make the mistake of launching an unpopular war, then the draft becomes an oppresive compulsion, rather than a collective response to danger.
To the extent that they doubt the danger, they will resist the notion of a draft, lest that lack of justification become manifest, and limit the power of the president to do what he thinks right, as opposed to what the nation thinks right.
They believe in republican values after all, not democratic values. To wit - belief in the wisdom of the great leader, rather than the wisdom of the people.
Posted by: Karl Jr. at July 3, 2005 08:33 PMYou are right, Karl Jr.
Enough Americans voted for Bush; they get it.
Mark Polling and TmjUtah voted for Bush. They get it.
I can't believe that public support would wane if there was a draft. Americans are always willing to do whatever it takes to defend freedom.
It's not like this war was about scapegoating an ineffectual has been dictator for the actions of al qaeda. Nor is it about oil and permanent bases from which the oil can be protected.
No! Saddam would have turned our civic centers - right here at home - into smoldering uninhabitable fields of death.
So we had to stop him by invading. And by invading we are drawing terrorists out of very democratic and very friendly regimes like Saudi Arabia. Now we can kill them in Iraq instead of in Manhattan.
Americans know that the war was necessary. It was us or them; just like WW2. So Americans will be happy to do their duty and be drafted; just like WW2. They probably have not been rushing down to the recruiting centers because they were told that troop levels were sufficient and they didn't want to overburden the military with the need to requisition more boots.
We are the land of the free and the home of the brave. Freedom is on the march! Who's afraid of a little draft?
Posted by: PostDude at July 3, 2005 08:54 PMDepressing. Karl, Dude, keep yourselves feeling good. Dude, you in particular should keep the wood burning for the draft.
Me, I'm more worried about the next step in the escalation chain, but maybe that's just because I was paying attention during the cold war.
For what it's worth, I hope we're all outside the blast radius when the first rogue nuke goes off. I'll be more than willing to argue with you against a total annihilation response, but I don't think we'll win.
But hey, at that point both of us will be on the side of Right, right? Something to look foreward to, I guess....
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 09:16 PMAnd I'll ask again, to both of you; if a Draft is a good idea, why not just turn the whole region into a parking lot?
See you in Kuwait, asshats.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 09:28 PMDamn, can't let this go.
Do you two really want this to be a war of civilizations? Do you want this to be a war of total victory or total defeat?
I'm fine with this conflict being as limited as possible. I do not want to see total victory of one culture over another. But keep it up, useful fools, and that's what's going to happen.
Happy independence day.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 09:47 PM" if a Draft is a good idea, why not just turn the whole region into a parking lot?"
Sorry, but I dont follow your logic.
Posted by: Karl Jr. at July 3, 2005 09:50 PMDraft=commitment
Total war=commitment
If we're going to fight by WWII standards, why waste our boys lives, when we've got B-52s and the biggest military-industrial complex in the history of the planet at our disposal?
You don't follow my logic because it doesn't suit your needs. Or you're an idiot, and I don't believe that.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 09:55 PM"Do you two really want this to be a war of civilizations?"
Once agian Mark, I really have no idea how you are making connections between position A, and conclusion B.
I am not advocating a draft. But I am not dismissing it out of hand in the manner that you guys are. I think a draft is a perfectly proper national response to the type of existential struggle that this war is being sold as. And if the troop requirements demand a draft (and I sense that we may be approaching that point), then we should do it. Or else admit that the war does not rise to such a level of importance.
The attitudes that you and Utah take however, I really dont understand.
This war was a joke to the Bush admin., the world realized this...most folks realize Bush believees this war to be a joke...a photo-op...except the right-winging sheep.
Posted by: PostDude at July 3, 2005 10:00 PMThanks for the explanation. I was not discussing the draft as a surrogate argument for escalation to the level of total war. I was discussing the draft as mechanism for mobilizing sufficient troops to fulfill present commitments without degrading the preparedness of our forces for whatever other challanges might arise.
Posted by: Karl Jr. at July 3, 2005 10:00 PM"Draft=commitment
Total war=commitment"
Oh, and BTW Mark. I sense that you are intellegent enought to understand that it would be a logical fallacy to go from those two premises to a conclusion that draft=total war.
Would be like saying:
Bush = republican
Cheney = republican
therefore
Bush=Cheney
Karl, I'm really tired of this ingenuous style of argument. I think this conflict is critical to the course of history, and I thing that from this point in history it could go very badly, unless it is handled well.
I'm not sure what your course of action would be, but I am sure that a passive posture would lead to an ever escalating crisis, which in a nuclear era means we lose at least one major city. (And likely, the one me and/or my wife will be sleeping in tonight.)
A draft will happen if America feels that its very existance is threatened. IF I were you, I would hope very much that that never happens.
But that's because I'm a pacifist at heart.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 10:06 PMLogical fallacy? How so? Politically, I don't think a draft happens unless the United States feels like its existence it threatened. (That's what Neo is implying, right? We're not serious without a draft?)
Seriously, I really hope we never get serious. The current conflict is important, but if it ever get existential the world will be a very harsh place. For us, yes, but for the rest of the world more so.
Talk to your grandparents, folks. It might help.
Posted by: Mark Poling at July 3, 2005 10:13 PMGuys, please remove your tinfoil hats before entering the discussion area. The military does not want a draft. The commanders are not asking for more troops.
Sheesh.
Posted by: TallDave at July 3, 2005 11:39 PMTallDave,
Because this has never been the war it was sold as.
This has been entertaiment for right-wing sheep.
Bush & his followers always wanted the symbolism of WW2, without any of the sacrifice.
Posted by: PostDude(Neo) at July 4, 2005 12:01 AMThis war doesn't need more troops. What is needed is patience. And that's something infantile minds do not have.
Posted by: mika. at July 4, 2005 05:16 AMBush & his followers always wanted the symbolism of WW2, without any of the sacrifice.
If I was going to war, would I want the "sacrifice" of people like you? No, I would much prefer to have people like you sit at home and sulk for not being called up.
Posted by: mika. at July 4, 2005 05:45 AMmika,
and that is why your wet dreams for a republican fdr, and a brave united states, and freedom across the world are just the talk of a religious fanatic.
you wouldn’t\'t know anything about the american tradition, if it blew-up in your face.
just religious fanatics following a religious manipulator.
Posted by: PostDude(Neo) at July 4, 2005 08:13 AMHAPPY FOURTH OF JULY!!!
You brave right-wing soldiers of truth should love this:
Posted by: PostDude(Neo) at July 4, 2005 09:17 AMNeodude likes to complain about the "massive blunders" that were supposedly made in the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Perhaps he can inform us of which wars in history (beyond a few days in duration) did not include "massive blunders" costing a great many lives -- certainly World War II ain't it.
The leftist mantra about the supposed "lack of planning" with regard to this war is also truly misguided. Rigid planning is basically impossible in warfare, where there's an enemy who responds to every move you make with countermeasures of his own. A German marshall in WWII said something along the lines of "the first casualty on the battlefield is The Plan." What's far more important than planning per se is being more innovative and faster on your feet than the other side.
In Iraq progress has been such that insurgents who half a year ago could overrun Iraqi Police stations in places like Mosul largely at will, with the cops fleeing in disorder, now face IP who stand their ground and massacre them in large numbers when they try. Directly attacking Coalition troops is even more deadly to insurgents' longevity, with the result that they're lately reduced to planting roadside bombs and employing jihadist suicide bombers to kill helpless Iraqi civilians. Doesn't sound like a thriving insurgency to me.
Posted by: Michael McNeil (Impearls) at July 4, 2005 07:15 PMNice link Post Dude. I wonder what the dead soldiers in those links would say to you if they could talk, knowing that their corpses have been used for propagada purposes by losers like you.
What gives you the right asshole.
Posted by: mnm at July 4, 2005 07:56 PM"Those of you familiar with the Friends of Democracy site already know what’s it about. Essays from the Iraqi Arabic-language blogosphere are translated and sent to me. I then edit and publish them."
But you're not Our Staff & People: Friends of Democracy Staff, Volunteers and Correspondents ? That's a rather long list of nouns to not be included in, isn't it?
Posted by: Gary Farber at July 4, 2005 10:29 PMIncidentally, the header for the site is given as "Iraq Election News," which doesn't seem to be an entirely on-target description as measured by the actual posts.
Posted by: Gary Farber at July 4, 2005 10:34 PMNeo Dude
You come across as a 16 year old punk. If I were Dirty Harry, I wouldn't even ask you that question. Consider yourself dead and buried as far as any further conversation between us is concerned.
Posted by: mika. at July 5, 2005 04:06 AMmika -- your comments against "neodude" are outrageous. It's conveys a "kill the messanger" attitude, which is intellectually indefensible.
mnm -- most of the photos in the link that neodude provided were photos of Iraqis, not US soldiers. What difference does it make anyway?
There are some pretty nasty pictures of what goes on in slaughterhouses, too, available for download at tons of pro-vegan sites. If you have a problem with all this, maybe you should look at this as an opportunity for self-introspection.
The truth hurts, but it must always be revealed. If you're a war supporter, and you can't look at those pictures everyday without having some sort of negative reaction, this is a signal that shouldn't be ignored.
To anticipate a response, YES, post pictures of Saddam-era atrocities, please.
Also, to anticipate another response, spare me the phony "everybody knows war is hell" platitudes.
Posted by: markus rose at July 5, 2005 06:55 AMMarkus,
As a volunteer ex-soldier and GW1 vet, what makes me want to puke is how some fucking jerk off can use the images of proud soldiers who died with honor, for their own propaganda purposes.
These guys didnt volunteer to have images of their corpses used by dumb asses like Post Dude.
Would you Post Dude or the like have supported armed invasion of Afghanistan before 9/11? Fuck no you wouldn't. Would you have supported war with Japan prior to Pearl Harbour.
Its great how some people can sit and judge without ever coming up with any ideas of their own.
Thank god most of you guys are basically ignored when its crunch time.
Do you guys truly believe that your constant criticism is helping? If the anti-war crowd really wants to help, they should get behind the effort. That will help recruitment and end this war faster. Gee, ever think of that?
Youre right, the truth does hurt, it always has and it always will.
Posted by: mnm at July 5, 2005 07:58 AMMNM,
Does your condemnation of the use of pictures of dead soldiers in order to make a point about the war in Iraq mean that you are also critical of the invocation by Republicans in Congress of those who died on September 11 to justify a Constitutional ban on flag burning?
Posted by: The Commenter at July 5, 2005 08:07 AM"MNM,
Does your condemnation of the use of pictures of dead soldiers in order to make a point about the war in Iraq mean that you are also critical of the invocation by Republicans in Congress of those who died on September 11 to justify a Constitutional ban on flag burning?"
I judge by your question that you think Im some kind of a koolaid drinking, talking points wing nut. See thats the mistake a lot of people make. Ive never voted for a republican in my life, or a democrat for that matter.
Im probably part of the not so silent majority. The portion of the population who votes for people who express ideas that makes sense. I often shake my head at some of the crap I see coming from the republicans, but at least from time to time they come up with ideas and policies that I can say, yeah, that makes sense to me. All that seems to be coming from the left is a lot whining and complaining.
I don't know who or what you are talking about, but if someone uses 9/11 victims to advocate anti-flag burning legislation I condemn it, I certainly do. It also does not make sense to me. Having said that, I don't equate 9/11 victims to soldiers who volunteer to fight knowing when they go to work each day that they could get killed.
Posted by: mnm at July 5, 2005 08:28 AMThe reason that the use of images of dead soldiers is a proper, even necessary act is that it is far too easy to discuss war on purely abstract, intellectual levels. Any good salesman can sell a war in the abstract - simply articulate some of our national values, point out that they are sorely lacking in some place, and gin up an effort to liberate the unfortunates. Who could possibly oppose these types of war if that is the level of argumentation?
But war happens in the real world; the consequences, for the fighters, and the bystanders are not abstract at all. The implicit question posed by displaying a picture of war dead is this: are you willing to pay this price - the loss of these honorable men, to achieve your goals. The other half of the equation - in terms of what needs to be dealt with - is honest reporting (as opposed to happy-talk) of what goals are actually being achieved.
We must look at the pictures, and read the real stories of what is going on. Then we can decide, one way or the other, where we stand on the war. Positions taken otherwise are not serious, nor worthy of a free people.
Posted by: Karl Jr. at July 5, 2005 09:18 AMIts rather startling that, while those who believe in the righteousness of bin Laden's cause are joining his fight, we can't get College Republicans to join the Army to support the Bush agenda.
Posted by: p.lukasiak at July 2, 2005 08:25 PM |
Posted by: NeoDude at July 5, 2005 10:16 AMmarkus rose,
It's pretty much my prerogative whom I choose to conversate with, or not. And as much as you liberals hunger for attention, there's nothing outrageous in someone denying you that attention, when that someone so chooses to. But don't let that stop you from trolling. Btw, how is it that "Neo Dude" now becomes the "messenger" and is no longer responsible for his own words or "message"? Just curious.
Posted by: mika. at July 5, 2005 12:10 PMUm, Michael, do you read and or respond to your comments?
I have a vague memory of asking this before, and being unanswered; however, I ask again, because I well might have missed your response.
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