Michael J. Totten: When Trolls Reform

June 07, 2005

When Trolls Reform

Every now and again new trolls show up in my comments. Sometimes they’re left-wing. Other times they’re right-wing. (Funny how there are no politically moderate trolls.) Sometimes I have to chase them out with a baseball bat without warning. Other times they get warned first. The bat comes swinging at their little troll heads later, sometimes five minutes later.

I’ve never been sure why I bothered to warn trolls before banning them. It just seemed like the right thing to do. Now I know why. Some trolls are reformable.

A while back a guy showed up pretending to be a truly, deeply, laughably idiotic conservative. Called himself “Proud Conservative.” It was obvious he was a fake. And I don’t like fakes.

“Don’t be juvenile,” I said. “Either post your real opinions or post somewhere else.”

Amazingly, he complied. He started posting his real opinions. Thought-out liberal opinions are a lot more worth reading than purposely stupid conservative opinions. So when he changed his handle to “The Commenter Formerly Known as Proud Conservative,” I took him off my mental troll list and left him alone.

Later he shortened his handle to simply “The Commenter.” And I noticed that he was able to hold court in the comments in long-running threads and beat everyone else in argument. He can’t do it consistently. Sometimes times he’s as wrong-headed as you are. But he can do it sometimes, and he can also get my back when I need some backup. What kind of troll is that?

Then I created a monster. I told him if he got a blog I would read it. Now I have yet another blog that I’m obligated to read because he went and started one. It’s called Uninformed Opinion, perhaps a rather honest riff on Juan Cole’s arrogantly titled “Informed Comment.” He deserves a link for that one alone.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2005 08:23 PM

Comments

I like a good liberal blog now and then. I have a few linked on my site. Even a vegetarian, atheist liberal. I was reading - and even agreeing to certain points - until he said the "A" word. I quit reading right there.

Call me narrow minded, but in my view, citing Atrios is like citing Newsmax - just can't stomach it. Too darned bad - I was ready to like your commenter. Maybe I'll try him again later.

Cheers!

Posted by: Joel (No Pundit Intended) at June 7, 2005 09:17 PM

Has anyone read "The Dream Palace of the Arabs"? I am about twenty pages into it and I want to know if it sucks. It starts well, but I don't want to read 500 pages of bullshit. Lebanon Profile? Anybody?

Posted by: MIke#3or4 at June 7, 2005 10:31 PM

Mike,

I read that book when I was in Beirut. It does not suck. Read it.

But Thomas Friedman's "From Beirut to Jerusalem" is a better read, especially the first half. He's a bit naive about Yasser Arafat in that book, but he has since revised his opinion - as many of the rest of us have.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 7, 2005 10:49 PM

I hope the Commentariat doesn't totally disappear here; but also that his own blog allows more bloviation there. (Can I talk about bloviation with a straight face? No, I can not. I suggested he tell his readers which is his favorite JibJab, with a smile on my face none can see.)

I like Marc Cooper, too.

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at June 8, 2005 02:57 AM

As long as I have known Mr. Totten online these many years, I have always thought him a reformer. He was once reforming people such as myself (sadly to no great effect), then the people of the former Yugoslavia, then the Islamic religious, and now a poster on his weblog. Congratulations on your success, Mr. Totten. And, congratulations to The Commenter Formerly Known as Proud Conservative on the loss of hubris and the expression of a truer self. You've both made the world a better place. Do continue.

Posted by: Virgil K. Saari at June 8, 2005 04:07 AM

"Reformer" Wow, great insight Virgil. As a reformer wannabee, it certainly explains my addiction to MJT with coffee.

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at June 8, 2005 09:46 AM

Holy COW. The Commenter is one prolific dude! Look what he banged out in just 3 days. If ever a guy needed his own blog it's him. But I think he should have called himself "The Diplomat" rather than the Commentariat.

The only problem with this blog proliferation thing, however, is that it's like going to a party and by the end of the evening everyone is off in separate rooms in small groups. It takes alot of energy to have an ongoing conversation with multiple folks who have split off into separate rooms, especially if one is inclined to make comments and then check back for any replies.

Posted by: Caroliine at June 8, 2005 10:14 AM

Re: Thomas Friedman, naivete & Arafat

"He's a bit naive about Yasser Arafat in that book, but he has since revised his opinion - as many of the rest of us have."

Perhaps that naivete is why I can't stand
Friedman's work.

(Friedman is no relation to me, BTW)

Posted by: Dave not related to Tom Friedman at June 8, 2005 10:16 AM

Caroline: "The only problem with this blog proliferation thing, however, is that it's like going to a party and by the end of the evening everyone is off in separate rooms in small groups. It takes a lot of energy to have an ongoing conversation with multiple folks who have split off into separate rooms…"

I remember years ago reading something by Hermann Kahn - can't remember whether it was "On Thermonuclear War" or something else. One problem he foresaw was society being atomized into many subcultures.

Now Kahn always gave me the willies. I always thought he had fascist tendencies. (He was the prototype for Kubrick's "Dr Strangelove"). But I think he had a point. I see our society being fractured into subcultures that no longer talk to each other or understand each other, and blogging is a technology that enables this.

Answers? None. Just an observation.

Posted by: VinoVeritas at June 8, 2005 11:38 AM

Vinoveritas,

I know what you mean, and it is a bit creepy at times. That's one reason I kick trolls (real trolls, not The Commenter) out of my comments section. It enables people of different political persuasions to actually talk to each other once the jerks are cleared out of the way.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 8, 2005 12:23 PM

Heh,

What a clever and diplomatic way to ease him out. Distraction is a wonderful tool in dealing with dogs, cats, and children. Congratulations.

Posted by: chuck at June 8, 2005 01:53 PM

Chuck,

My intention was not to ease him out. I like him.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 8, 2005 02:24 PM

Oh Michael,

To quote a phrase, "hello, it's called satire...".

I didn't find much on his site that couldn't be found in abundance elsewhere, but I am sure it will appeal to some. As to my imputation, remember that age and cunning beats youth and talent everytime. You are not yet among the old farts, but you might bear this experience in mind as you head that way in life. Resistance is futile, you know.

Posted by: chuck at June 8, 2005 02:44 PM

Michael, Damascus to Beirut is next on my list. The last book I read was Longitudes and Attitudes which was good. Does everyone in the Middle East really think that the jews had something to do with the WTC attacks or is that just Friedman talking about a few specific people?

Posted by: Mike #3or4 at June 8, 2005 02:46 PM

Does everyone in the Middle East really think that the jews had something to do with the WTC attacks...

Heck, I have met arab-Americans in this country who believe the same. It is not an isolated pathology, though, you can see the same sort of thing when OIF and Bush is discussed. But it is not fair in my experience to say everyone believes that.

Posted by: chuck at June 8, 2005 03:02 PM

I have talked to people in the Middle East who know very well who flew airplanes into our buildings. And I'm not just talking about Lebanon. Libya, too.

A couple of people in Tunisia bragged "We have Jews here!" It was a point of pride to them. They wanted me to know they are different from some of the nutjobs elsewhere.

There are plenty of crazies in the region as well, obviously. I saw some of them in Lebanon when I went down into Hezbollahland.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 8, 2005 03:24 PM

Mike#3or4,

I'll add another plug for Fouad Ajami's Dream Palace of the Arabs. It was one of the first 4 books on my new reading list when my interests took a turn in the wake of 9/11. Ajami waxes somewhat literary at times (as do his essays in various news media), but he does a good job of capturing the progressive disillusionment with each salvational ideology after the colonial era: socialism, pan-Arabism, Islamism, etc.

(The other 3 books were Simon Jenkins' The New Jackals, Ahmed Rashid's Taliban, and Elain Sciolino's Persian Mirrors. All very good.)

Posted by: Joel at June 8, 2005 03:53 PM

I see our society being fractured into subcultures that no longer talk to each other or understand each other, and blogging is a technology that enables this.

It's the natural and inevitable result of both multi-culturalism and moral relativism. Fifty years ago the national conversation about any topic began from a common ground. We no longer have that, and this conversation has transformed itself into an outright war. I believe we are more divided as a country today than we were during the Civil War. We just haven't resorted to violence yet. "Diversity" and relativism are not a social glue, it does not unite a people. Immigrants used to adjust to the society as a whole. Now that's on its head. Same with the relativists. Watch as the minority leads the majority by the nose.

Thank you, multi-cultis. Thank you, Leftist relativists, for your Blade Runner dystopia, and for the damage you sow wherever your ideas take hold.

Posted by: spaniard at June 8, 2005 06:06 PM

Spaniard,

Technology would usher in this problem, if it is in fact really a problem at all, in any case. Have you ever read "The Third Wave" by Alvin Toffler? Fascinating book. The Second Wave, which is the world-wide "civilization" of the Industrial Revolution, is being utterly smashed by technology.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 8, 2005 06:18 PM

Michael,

I can see how technology would help the process along big time, but only as an enabler of a deeper problem.

Posted by: spaniard at June 8, 2005 06:48 PM

Umm, spaniard,

look at the thirties. Roosevelt trying to stuff the supreme court by adding two justices, the sudden growth of government programs, strikes, the rise of Nazi Germany, the America Firsters, Father Coughlin... By the way, if you want to see social justice and Christianity combined in a fashion that sounds very odd today, go listen to Coughlin.

There are many other turbulent era's. Try the 1890's, for instance. Not to mention the famous boomer 60's. Anyway, quiet periods don't appear to be the norm, so enjoy them when you can.

Posted by: chuck at June 8, 2005 07:14 PM

Re Toffler - I haven't see his name in ages. The last time I recall seeing his name was when I read 'Future Shock' (a very long time ago). The only things I can even recall about that book were two little factoids. 1) the reason bells ring at schools is to condition the kids to life in the factory and 2) capitalism destroyed the extended family by requiring workers to be able to rapidly relocate for the corporation, thus trimming the traditional concept of family into its current "nuclear" form.

I also remember in college, cramming for a final in "World History" by reading the entire textbook in one night. The one thing that stands out after all these years? The Black Plague. It destroyed feudal society, the survivors moved to the cities, a mercantile class emerged, and the rest is, as they say, history. (And the fact that I crammed for that exam in one night no doubt accounts for my pathetic ignorance of history).

Moving on with these sweeping generalizations about transformative events, I have recently seen some rather compelling arguments that the root cause of western demographic suicide is....drumroll please....Social Security. It simply eliminates the motivation to reproduce. Why put up with the hassle of pregnancy, birth and childrearing, if your comfort in old age is a done deal?

Re the internet, I figure we'll have some clue about its real effects on society in about 25 years, maybe sooner, if only because history sometimes seems to be accelerating (or maybe we're merely documenting it faster, which could conceivably give a false sense of its acceleration).

(It occurs to me that anyone reading that last sentence might get the false impression that I've been smoking pot. Nope. But it's obviously time to head to bed. :-)

Posted by: Caroline at June 8, 2005 07:51 PM

Caroline,

That is perhaps one of the clearest descriptions of Baudrillard's concept of hyperreality that I've seen yet in these comments sections. Which are, of course, hyperreal themselves.

Huzzah!

Spaniard,

Why do you think that discourse 50 years ago started from a lost common ground? Why do you think that we're more divided than at a time when Americans were actually slaughtering each other en masse over differing opinions?

Posted by: The Commenter at June 8, 2005 08:56 PM

Commenter: "That is perhaps one of the clearest descriptions of Baudrillard's concept of hyperreality that I've seen yet in these comments sections"

Perhaps - but the air is so much cleaner up here and the view is really lovely. You'll have to come visit sometime.

Posted by: Caroline at June 9, 2005 04:25 AM

Spaniard: "Fifty years ago the national conversation about any topic began from a common ground. We no longer have that, and this conversation has transformed itself into an outright war. I believe we are more divided as a country today than we were during the Civil War."

You know what? Maybe I've changed my mind, at least partly. Society has been drifting into different solitudes in recent years. But as Chuck has pointed out, there have been far more divisive periods.

Spaniard, I don't know how old you are, but I remember the 60's and early 70's, and things were much more divisive then - and more like war. Remember, war involves actual killing. Thank God that isn't happening now, but it was then. The Kennedy and Martin Luther King assassinations, Kent State, assassination of civil rights workers in the south, and violent revolution being preached by groups like the Weathermen and the Black Panthers.

And you say America is more divided than during the civil war, when hundred's of thousands were killed? Well, we all get carried away and make stupid statements sometimes.

Plus, the issues I've mentioned are all primarily social and political. Racially, there wasn't much "national conversation" between blacks and whites until after WWII, or between Indians and whites In fact that was division that was embedded into the original constitution. Check out that bit about Indians and "other" persons only counting as 3/5 of a "free" person for census purposes.

Posted by: VinoVeritas at June 9, 2005 05:29 AM

'I also remember in college, cramming for a final in "World History" by reading the entire textbook in one night.'

In ONE NIGHT ???!!!

Posted by: hopeful history grad at June 9, 2005 06:55 AM

Vino, chuck,

you make fair points, though I'm not convinced. Only time will tell just how deep our divisions really are, and whether they will become deeper or not.

Posted by: spaniard at June 9, 2005 07:52 AM

I’m going to float a tentative theory here: the difference between now and the 60’s isn’t the quality of the “national conversation”. It’s the shared perception of the importance of having one.

In the 60’s and early 70’s, there were profoundly different visions, which sometimes resulted in open violence. Nonetheless, even the protest songs sometimes addressed the opposition:

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall

- Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changing”

I don’t see any equivalent to that in today’s music. (Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.) And people like Bill O’Reilly only converse with their opponents by screaming at them.

Posted by: VinoVeritas at June 9, 2005 08:28 AM

Spaniard, when I think of major divisions in American history the Hartford Convention, Know Nothing party, Draft Riots, KKK reaching its zenith with 4 million members in early 20th century in turn endorsing Woodrow Wilson who was a big fan of "Birth of a Nation", the Black Legion, the Depression (Father Caughlin was mentioned above), Communists membership at an all time high in the 1930's, McCarthyism in the 50's, Vietnamn, and so forth. Conflicts were more regional back then. I know couples that have differing views about Iraq. Are they going to take arms against each other? Bush got roughly 35 - 40 % of the vote in Blue State, and Kerry got similar #'s in red states.
Polemicism is popular in the media today. There's $$$ to be made in being a Michael Moore, Ann Coulter, Bill Maher, etc. All these polemecists have their fanclubs where they mutually whine to each other. Americans are too complacent (in a good way) to take up arms against each other. Republicans aren't going to go out and shoot the marxist/anarchist behind the counter at Starbucks. Wealthy Blue state Democrats aren't going to pull the plug on their Republican parents residing in nursing homes. It's more bark than bite nowadays.

Posted by: Tom in CT at June 9, 2005 09:07 AM

bloviate, verb.

To spew mixed tomato/vegetable juice beverage.

Posted by: Asher Abrams - Dreams Into Lightning at June 9, 2005 10:45 AM

Spaniard,

You want to know what a truly divisive country looks like right now? Check out Lebanon, Iraq, Colombia, and Bolivia. We got nothing on those places.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at June 9, 2005 10:48 AM

(Funny how there are no politically moderate trolls.)

NO MORE ABORTIONS!, unless: medically necessary to save the women's life or in the case of rape, are performed in the first trimester, the parents are notified if the woman is under 18, and if the US offers free prenatal care to all mothers and a 9 month paid leave from their job to breast feed.

NO NEW TAXES!, except to bring the deficit down, fund a quasi-national healthcare and pay teachers more and only then on the top .1% of wage earners as well as on inheritances.

NO GUN CONTROL!, except for bans on belt-fed or drum-fed automatic weapons, and assuming a national system to check the background of the purchaser and strict testing for concealed carry.

You Democrats are EVIL for wanting higher paid teachers and new textbooks and so are you Republicans for even thinking about sending your kids to private school.

You Republicans are EVIL for desiring more local control over your tax dollars and so are you Democrats for even suggesting that conservation might be something to think about lest we end up with $10 a gallon gas.

There, does that work? ;)

PS, and my security code started with 666. Moderate Satan!

Posted by: crionna at June 9, 2005 07:18 PM

"I don’t see any equivalent to that in today’s music."

Maybe, but you do see today's equivalent in yesterday’s music:

Run, rabbit run.
Dig that hole, forget the sun,
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down it's time to dig another one.

Posted by: mika. at June 11, 2005 06:39 AM

Every age thinks it's unique in its problems and hostilities.

Comparisons are odious, but having lived thru both, I'd say the 60s & 70s were somewhat more divided than the 00s. The kicker in this era is the Iraqi experiment, IMO. I actually have great hopes for it. It will turn out to be a huge socio-political catalyst, I think.

Posted by: Brian H at June 12, 2005 12:28 PM

Do you truly believe that the name of Juan Cole's blog is arrogant? In a political/cultural landscape where our nation's commentary is bashed by who regularly give "expert" opinions on say, The Northern Ireland conflict, the future of Social Security, the intentions of the Founding Fathers and global warming, sometimes all in the same week, having someone who studied the problem before it became this week's new story is not only incredibly valuable, it's damn refreshing. Before Juan Cole's blog came out where could I get summaries of what went on the Middle East as reported in the region?

When we are two and half years into a war that was sold to us as being a cakewalk, when the Secretary of Defense planned to have only 30,000 troops in Iraq by October 2003, when the reconstruction that was built around ideologues and contractors rather than US experts and NGOs failed, when a resume on file on the Heritage Institute is a better advantage of getting a job rebuilding Iraq than speaking Arabic is, when we have been told by the Deputy Secretary of Defense that Iraq didn't have a history of conflict, when rewriting laws to a free-market standard is considered more important for a state than basic security, when the Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction says we have no idea what happened to 8.8 billion dollars, in short when living through a time of immense government hubris and failure, don't you think that worrying about a professor's blog is arrogant is a little misplaced?

Also don't you think Informed Comment has a double meaning, in that its readers become better informed because the information found there is not easily found elsewhere in English?

Some of the hubris I mention can be found here.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48543-2004May22.html

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