The Gulag IS North Korea, not in North Korea. Its the world's largest prison.

Perspective Michael. You have it.

For one thing, if Guantanamo were the new gulag, Irene Khan would be languishing in it herself right about now – and so would her family.

Wait, since Guantanamo is not being used to house very many American and/or Western political prisoners, it is not a brutal and largely lawless camp?

Khan's statement is helpful or not depending on what she's trying to do. Presumably one thing she's trying to do is shame the American government -- not reason with them, but shame them. And a Hitchens-style statment would not do that, or at least not in the intended way. Can't we have Khan appying one sort of pressure, and Hitchens and you applying another?

Moreover, to call this the American gulag, or the gulag of our times, isn't to say that it's as bad as the Soviet gulag. Obviously it isn't. Obviously it's unlike the Societ gulag in all sorts of ways. Still: what's going on is like the Soviet gulag in some ways, and to call it a gulag brings attention to those parallels.

North Korea is not the gulag of our times, NK is a remnant of Stalin's gulag which happens to still exist. The Gulag is also still alive in China. If you're going to generalize about places like the Gulag it would also be helpful to have a definition of what you mean by it. Everyone knows what a death camp is but a lot of people seem to think gulag is just a prison camp. A key element of the gulag has to be "a camp where direct physical violence is encouraged as the best method to control prisoners, and where prisoners are forced to provide physical labor in the service of the state but prisoners are not provided adequate food, shelter and equipment to carry out that labor. Also, a majority of prisoners are guilty of nothing more than expresed or perceived political opposition to the ruling party." Compulsory physical labor beyond normal human endurance is a key feature, missing in Guantanamo. I agree that Guantanamo is, by American standards, by all accounts a pretty appalling place, but certainly no gulag.

I don't know if Khan is really trying to shame America, she should know enough to realize her remarks will probably have the opposite effect, and are certainly not conducive to persuading anyone holding a different viewpoint. I suspect that what is motivating her ridiculous hyperbole is the desire to get attention from the media. This seems to be a common trait among all NGOs and activist groups.

Wait, since Guantanamo is not being used to house very many American and/or Western political prisoners, it is not a brutal and largely lawless camp?
Posted by Kimmitt at May 26, 2005 02:32 AM
***************************************************
I think by this

"For one thing, if Guantanamo were the new gulag, Irene Khan would be languishing in it herself right about now – and so would her family."

They were trying to point out if the US really had
Gulags "they" would be in one, if they had done this in Iraq a few years ago without their tongue if they were still alive or if in NK they and their family to the 3rd generation.

I'm sure that the real agenda here is that Amnesty donors really open their wallets for work like this. It's all about what message sparks your donors.

Amnesty International: perpetuating and supporting misery and oppression around the world.

I know you're not interested in plaudits- but there are those of us who consider you THE voice of reason.

Can a rational and informed person who has been paying attention to the goings on in North Korea, China, Darfur, Syria, Iran, Lybia, etc. over the years agree with Amnesty International's assessment that the US is the worst human rights offender in all of the World? I think not.

The only thing accomplished by this ludicrous report is serious damage to Amnesty International's credibility. Their equating of Guantanamo and the Gulag is on par with all properly discredited analogies (X is Hitler, Y is a Nazi, Z is Pol Pot or Stalin).

I suspect that Amenesty International makes the most noise about alleged American abuses because they know that, as a society, we will listen and we care. Preaching to the converted, as it were. However, the more ludicrous the claim the less we will listen in the future.

The problem I have with this whole "expose" on Americans torturing prisoners is the sudden shock we have for it now. I remember hearing about such within those FSM (First Six Months- 9/11/01 to 3/31/02) and nary a tear was shed. In fact, if I remember correctly, The New Republic had said that AQ suspects were being sent to places like Egypt to be tortured for information, so that the US could keep its hands clean. Has anyone heard of that? I'll look up the article.

I've already beaten the Amnesty International horse previously,but I really appreciated Vanya's objective evaluation,as well as MJT's reminder that words have meanings ,and they should be used carefully.

I would like to believe that Ms.Khan's cluelessness is merely 'shocking' for effect,but I don't think that is true.I feel she is just as unbelievably STUPID and BIASED as her remarks would indicate.And she probably wonders why her tendentious reports make their way to the trash-bins at the speed of light.Agendas destroy credibility.Like the UN,amd the MSM,Amnesty is most likely beyond repair.

Libs, with comments like Khan's, are being reduced to a bunch of ranting activistas. Regular folks can't stand this shit.

Ten of millions were locked away in Stalinist gulags, and millions upon millions died there. One of these gulags in Siberia was as big as a small country.

Not to mention Amnesty International opposed the liberation of Iraq and instead preferred writing Saddam some letters to convince him to close down his rape dungeons. Bunch of morons.

I think by calling Gitmo the "gulag of our times", Amnesty International has just lost all credibility, if it had any to start with. What a disgusting and ridiculous statement. With unspeakable crimes being committed in North Korea and Sudan and many other countries, it just blows me away. It shouldn't surprise me, but this is just a new low. AI is officially irrelevant. Speaking of which, Jimmy Carter doesn't work for them, does he?

Do high schools in the US still allow chapters of Amnesty Int'l to organize on their premises? Seems I remember there being one at the private (and very expensive) school I sub'ed at in the early 90's.

Syn: Amnesty International: perpetuating and supporting misery and oppression around the world.

Pot, meet kettle.

..if Khan is really trying to shame America, she should know enough to realize her remarks will probably have the opposite effect, and are certainly not conducive to persuading anyone holding a different viewpoint. I suspect that what is motivating her ridiculous hyperbole is the desire to get attention from the media.

Many left-wing NGOs serve as sort of unofficial missionary groups for the United Nations. While their condemnation of the United States receives wide press coverage, their condemnation of the United Nations is downplayed or buried on page 18.

The annual report, covering 131 countries, noted abuse across the world, but highlighted several grave examples: "In the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), both armed groups and United Nations forces were guilty of rape - in Turkey, family abuse of women is widespread; in Darfur, Sudan, gang rape is systemic - and in Eastern Europe, economic need fuels the trafficking of women."

The Amnesty said in Darfur, where a local rebellion sparked a brutal government backlash, Khartoum-backed militias had staged mass rapes, including of schoolgirls, and "frequently abducted" local women into sexual slavery.

Tens of thousands of women and girls were also subject to rape and sexual slavery in the DRC, and as in Darfur, victims were often then abandoned by their husbands and families, "condemning them and their children to extreme poverty".

All parties in the ongoing conflicts in the eastern DRC had committed the abuses against women, including military and police officers, and United Nations peacekeepers charged with the protection of civilians.

Amnesty said the two African cases were "not exceptional".

Amnesty International, like other left-wing NGOs, acts like a branch of the United Nations, and should be treated as such.

My suspicion is that Gitmo is somewhere between "brutal and largely lawless" and "club med for the Al-Q who got lucky."

What's that saying about having a wolf by the ears? So far the pilot tag-and-release program hasn't been a great success; too many of the "wrongfully imprisoned" just went back to their jihadi ways. And I take it just shooting everyone left would be bad form.

Don't suppose we could implant radio transmitters under their sternums and use them as bait, either. Amnesty would have a cow, and that's not considered ethical hunting practice anyway.

We could circulate the rumor that roughly a third of the prisoners had become closet converts to Judaism working for the CIA, tattoo their forheads with "Gitmo Grad" and let them all go. That has a certain perverse appeal, but it strikes me that the terrorists are better at filtering out bullshit propoganda than, say, editors at major Western newsweeklies. And of course the Arab Street hasn't proven to be the unthinking reactionary beast it was supposed to be.

And getting back to the whole "Gulag" thing, weren't those camps supposed to also produce material benefits to the State, above and beyond simply terrifying the masses and providing sadistic satisfaction to the power establishment? Hell, if that's our Gulag, at best we're getting one-third the bang for the buck that other fascists got; we're not even getting license plates out of these guys.

This isn't meant to make light of the sins that have been committed. We need an honest accounting of what has happened, and we need to know that the perpetrators are punished. What we don't need is histrionics pumped up to eleven. As others here have pointed out, the biggest threat to our society isn't the torture, it's the desensitization to torture.

Michael, thanks for being such an effective critic. You always produce work with a great light-to-heat ratio. Don't let it go to your head, but I think you're in the vanguard of writer/journalists that's going to overthrow the whole Woodward/Bernstein ideal. Keep up the good work.

oops - the link to the UN story

The problem is that fair, measured rhetoric when discussing Guantanamo torture allegations, or when discussing the complicity of some UN employees in rape in the Congo, is generally greeted by shrugged shoulders among defenders of the US or the UN, respectively.

And if shoulders are merely shrugged, atrocities will continue. In the current New Republic, see Noah Feldman's review of The Torture Papers: The Road to Abu Ghraib and Torture and Truth: America, Abu Ghraib, and the War on Terror.

On the other hand, people pay attention to inane, hyperbolic rhetoric, like Khan talking about US "gulags", or Mary talking about the UN, or about Amnesty as a "branch of the UN".

people pay attention to inane, hyperbolic rhetoric, like Khan talking about US "gulags", or Mary talking about the UN, or about Amnesty as a "branch of the UN".

They do?? Is the story about widespread abuse of women by UN employees on the front page of the New York Times today? I didn't see that.

Is my "inane, hyperbolic rhetoric" being repeated verbatim on CNN? I didn't know that either.

Funny thing, all I saw on the Times' front page were a few verbatim claims from Guantanamo "detainees" that the US flushed copies of the Koran down the toilet.

As everyone at the New York Times knows, Guantanamo detainees are a very reliable source of information.

The problem is that fair, measured rhetoric when discussing Guantanamo torture allegations, or when discussing the complicity of some UN employees in rape in the Congo, is generally greeted by shrugged shoulders among defenders of the US or the UN, respectively.

Yup. That's why the language of the Left MUST be hyperbolic-- because the simple mundane truth fails to impress. For instance "nazi" and "fascist" are so much more impressive than simply 'Conservative Republican.'

So Markus, because they aren't really "atrocities" is precisely why you have to dress it up to try to impress regular folks.

spaniard -- there is abundant evidence that atrocities have been committed, probably not at Guanatanamo. That's what "extraordinary rendition" is for.

By the way, what is your position on extraditing those supected of terrorism to other countries to be tortured?

Markus,

I haven't made up my mind on rendition. I'm still hashing it out.

Interesting that the rage being expressed here at the AI report preamble (and at the page numbers that certain items are located on !!!) far exceeds the rage that I've seen expressed by the same individuals at the allegations of abuse and torture. There are at least 38 cases where detainees have died under interrogation by US personnel, and those are the one that are public (for those who might be unclear on what "death under interrogation" means, it means "beaten to death during questioning").

If the AI report expresses alarm at the growing number of instances of this kind of crap and uses some strong language to do so, it's because (a) the US is the most powerful nation on earth, and it's not good to see this stuff become more and more tolerated by those in power, and (2) as a liberal democracy (or democratic republic, or whatever it is) it's far more likely that publiclity will change policy, and as that's AI's sole means of changing things, that's probably why it is publicizing it.

I haven't made up my mind on rendition. I'm still hashing it out.

How do you feel about the Maher Arar case?

Marcus, other foot time. Assume you have 20 Egyptian prisoners at Gitmo. They can be:

Extradited to Egypt (where there's a good chance they'll be tortured).

Incarcerated indefinitely next door to Castro's Workers' Paradise.

Given a pat on the butt and told to go forth, and be more careful with the Cemtex next time.

Tell you what, I agree to speak out against torture if you agree to stop acting like there are easy answers.

double,

if Mr. Arar is innocent and indeed not a terrorist, then his rendition obviously bothers me-- just like it bothers me when anybody is falsely imprisoned. Yet that doesn't mean I'm against jails. How many people are falsely accused of rape and languish in jail for decades before a DNA test sets them free. Yet I'm not against jailing rapists. Same logic.

The US is treating one terror suspect with the respect that Amnesty International claims Guantanamo detainees deserve - and the Left is enraged by it.

Marcus, dpu, what do you think we should do with Luis Posada Carriles? Should we hand him over to a government that may torture and/or execute him, or should we just let him go?

Marcus, dpu, what do you think we should do with Luis Posada Carriles?

If it's likely that he will receive treatment in the hands of the Venezuelan justice system that is illegal in the US, then obviously he should not be extradited without legal assurances. But this is surely covered by the laws of the US and by extradition treaties with Venezuala, right? What does that have to do with the topic at hand? And what left-wing rage? Are "leftists" demanding he be tortured and/or abused or something?

Kimmitt,
Clearly, by any accounts, what abuse there has been is limited to a very small percentage of the prisoners. So, no, it is not overall brutal, and to call it largely lawless is the type of hyperbole that causes a large part of the misunderstandings on these issues.

double,

what does Amnesty International have to say about prisoners released from Guantanamo returning to their terrorist ways? Will Amnesty apologize to the families of those he kills for having pressured the U.S. to release him?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3745962.stm

Unfortunately, as we have seen with Newsweek recently and Al Jazeera, et al, repeatedly over the past few years, these types of wildly exaggerated pronouncements and/or stories written with a complete lack of context/perspective do matter, and do have an effect. This "rating" by AI will just give more ammunition to the anti-democracy forces worldwide. Which, of course, would seem to defeat the purpose of AI. But as we've seen with many liberals lately, as long as you can bash Bush/America, the ultimate result really doesn't matter.

DPU: it's far more likely that publiclity will change policy, and as that's AI's sole means of changing things, that's probably why it is publicizing it.

I'm not complaing about the publicity. I'm complaining about the hyperventilating. I used to adore Amnesty International, but these days it seems to have been taken over by hysterical twits. They still do good necessary work and I want them to knock off the bullshit. There's a reason we tell the "boy who cried wolf" story to children. Boys who cry wolf get eaten by wolves.

spaniard - Will Amnesty apologize to the families of those he kills for having pressured the U.S. to release him?

Please show me where Amnesty International has "pressured" the US to release terrorists.

I'm not complaing about the publicity. I'm complaining about the hyperventilating.

Sometimes hyperventilating is the only way to publicize something. But I agree in main with your point. Having said that, I haven't read the text in question, which I will do.

I am curious what the other posters here feel about torture/abuse when there is a good potential that it will gain information (otherwise unobtainable) that will save lives. I am pretty sure that if I were an infantry officer in Iraq on one of these missions that is going on right now, and I captured someone who I thought had information on the locations of IEDs, or terrorist strongholds, information that would save the lives of some of my troops, I would not be hesitant to use whatever method might work to get that information. (Note that that is a separate issue than whether or not these actions hurt our cause in the long run.)
Would you have approved of torturing someone if it would have led to uncovering the 9/11 plot before it happened?
If your child had been kidnapped, and you felt he/she was in imminent danger of death (i.e. like that recent episose where the young girl was buried alive) would you approve of taking physical steps to extract the information from a suspect?

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? And what left-wing rage? Are "leftists" demanding he be tortured and/or abused or something?

George Bush says that any country “harboring” terrorists is a “hostile regime.” But the U.S. is currently harboring one of the world's deadliest terrorists: Luis Posada Carriles

A chief terrorist with long ties to US intelligence agencies is seeking asylum in the United States. The FBI has evidence linking him to an airline bombing that killed 73 people. We're talking about the notorious militant Cuban exile Luis Posada Carriles.

OMG, they used the T word! What kind of values-neutral reporting is this?

Why don't they call Carriles a "detainee"?

If anybody needs a reminder of what the Soviet Gulag was like, I've posted several excerpts from Anne Applebaum's book Gulag over at my blog over the past month or two. Last entry here.

Are you suggesting that someone who blew up a plane isn't a terrorist? I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting you, but sometimes you're serious and other times sarcastic, and sometimes I can't tell which tone you're using, which makes me miss the point you're making.

DPU, methinks you're being disingenuous. Mary is simply pointing out that the media that calls people who blow up Iraqis waiting to vote are insurgents, while people who blow up Cubans (who vote unanimously for Fidel every.... single.... time) are terrorists.

I can't imagine what might be the root cause of that discrpancy....

(That, by the way, was sarcasm.)

Are you suggesting that someone who blew up a plane isn't a terrorist?

According to Democracy Now, "the FBI has evidence" linking him to an airline bombing that killed 73 people.

The government also has evidence that the Guantanamo detainees are involved in terrorism. Can you find one single example of the left (or Reuters, or the New York Times) calling a Guantanamo detainee a "terrorist"?

As far as Carriles is concerned, we've benefitted in the past from our extradition treaty with Venezuela, so there's no reason why we shouldn't honor it now. As an acknowledged militant, a "combatant who deliberately violated the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups" he's not protected by the Geneva conference rules.

For some odd reason, I'm sure that Ms. Khan won't be hyperventilating about Mr. Carrile's incarceration. (and yes, that's sarcasm)

Mark - great minds think alike

(not sarcasm)

Please show me where Amnesty International has "pressured" the US to release terrorists.

What other reason do you think Amnesty International has by engaging in such mendacious hyperbole if not to pressure.

DPU, methinks you're being disingenuous. Mary is simply pointing out that the media that calls people who blow up Iraqis waiting to vote are insurgents, while people who blow up Cubans (who vote unanimously for Fidel every.... single.... time) are terrorists.

Insurgents are the guys attacking US troops. Terrorists are the guys blowing up civilians in carbombings. Detainees are people who may or may not be terrorists and are in US custody. If they are proven terrorists, and not, say, Taliban who were caught fighting US forces, then they're terrorist in US custody.

It's really not that hard, guys. A person blowing up a plane full of civilians in order to make a political point is quite definitely a terrorist, and I'm at a loss as to why this is an issue.

Regarding media references, well, I thought I was the one being accused of not being able to google

MSNBC: WASHINGTON - Terrorist suspects at the Guantanamo Bay prison told U.S. interrogators...

What other reason do you think Amnesty International has by engaging in such mendacious hyperbole if not to pressure.

Let's make it easier for you. Where have they used "hyperbole" to "release terrorists". Shouldn't be too hard to find, their reports are on-line.

For some odd reason, I'm sure that Ms. Khan won't be hyperventilating about Mr. Carrile's incarceration. (and yes, that's sarcasm)

I challenge you to find a single instance of Amnesty International arguing that a known criminal or terrorist be released. Just one. C'mon guys, talk is cheap. One instance.

Ted,
You make a good point about the gulag of "our" times. But you have to put it into perspective.
Khan's statement can be dragged through the deconstruction ditch over and over again, but that doesn't keep it from being propaganda.

Torture is absolutely necessary in cases of emergency. The Atlantic Monthly had an excellent piece on the topic in around September 2003.
Torturing people for smoking marijuana or making unkind gestures to police officers - as they do around here - is absolutely unnecessary. But if it will save lives, it's justified.
How do we make sure that a bunch of sadists don't decide to just start torturing everyone? Make them culpable for it. Americans review everything multiple times after they happen. Every instance of torture should be reviewed after it occurs.

One piece of advice: don't use violent torture. It just doesn't work. You can adapt to the pain.
Sleep deprivation, confined spaces, darkness, being buried alive and left alone; those work pretty well. The Syrians use them repeatedly to extract information, and American gives them the heads up to do so.

A Lebanese form of torture: beating people's feet until the bones crack and then making them run around the room. It actually works pretty well, but damages the person forever.

I write all of these graphic sentences to note that Guantanamo is definitely not a gulag, but also ineffective. If the captives are dying, the Americans are definitely abusing their authority and must be punished.
But if they are extracting useful information, well...
However, nothing is worse than torture for revenge. That's pure sadism.
There is very little that is worse than a prisoner dying in captivity. It's neglect at best. At worst, the capture should be sentenced to life in prison. Yes, that does include soldiers.

It's really not that hard, guys. A person blowing up a plane full of civilians in order to make a political point is quite definitely a terrorist, and I'm at a loss as to why this is an issue.

You're right, it's not hard, and that's why its an issue. We're sidetracked again onto some "look, a seagull!" snipe hunt, when this thread at least started out being about whether Amnesty International is being lead by an oportunistic media manipulator trolling for dollars, or whether she's just an idiot who can't discriminate between the Stalinist Soviet Union and the current situation.

If you believe the masses are ignorant sheep who have to be frightened and lied to in order to get them to do the right thing the its easy to forgive the kind of nonsense that seems to get a perennial pass from The Dreaded MSM™.

If on the other hand you think that, in an Enlightenment Culture, the masses deserve and require the respect inherent in honest reporting and commentary, then this kind of baloney had better piss you off, because what we've got now, vis-a-vis "the truths we hold to be self-evident" are very much outside the norm of the history of our species.

The common understanding that some animals are more equal than others that seems to underly most of these issues scares the hell out of me.

lebanon,

thank you for those graphic despcriptions of Syrian barbarism. We Americans prefer equally barbaric methods (but not nearly as effective), like naked pyramids, underwear headgear, pointing our fingers at their wee wees to embarrass them, etc.

Lebanon.profile - exactly. And that was an excellent article, I read it at the time. It nicely covers both the technical and psychological aspects of interrogation, and the blurred moral lines between psychological conditioning and outright torture. And man, are those Israeli interrogators ever sneaky.

I think what's been happening in many of the cases that have come to light is the form of sadism that emerges when you have one group in complete charge of another group without accountability. That, along with policies that fail to create a clear set of policies that prevent abuses from occurring, have lead to a growing number of horrible cases, up to and including rape and murder.

In 1973 AI published its first report on torture. It found that: “torture thrives on secrecy and impunity. Torture rears its head when the legal barriers against it are barred. Torture feeds on discrimination and fear. Torture gains ground when official condemnation of it is less than absolute.”

"thank you for those graphic despcriptions of Syrian barbarism. We Americans prefer equally barbaric methods (but not nearly as effective), like naked pyramids, underwear headgear, pointing our fingers at their wee wees to embarrass them, etc."

According to reports, there have been at least 34 confirmed deaths in interrogation between Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo. I doubt many of these were achieved by underwear on the head.

By the way, what is your position on extraditing those supected of terrorism to other countries to be tortured?

Marcus,

the answer to this is that I prefer we handle the torture of these individuals ourselves, not the rendering to other nations. That gives us some control over the methods used. I think rendering is political cowardice, but to date in can't be helped because of the whiny Left. It's because of you guys that they end up being rendered to other nations to have their feet broken by thuggish interrogators.

"It's because of you guys that they end up being rendered to other nations to have their feet broken by thuggish interrogators."

Please clarify.

Dustin,

according to whose reports? And how many died because of mistreatment, as opposed to suicide, old age, the common cold, etc.

Ah, the daily Two-Minute Hate against the MSM, played out in slow-motion blog time.

AI released a report that summarizes human rights abuses around the world. It has sections on 149 countries. The section of the report on the USA used an unfortunate metaphor. Therefore let's ignore everything the AI said and denounce that metaphor.

John Dolye had a relevant observation today (on another topic) in the Toronto Globe and Mail: "These days, there is a vast gulf between the public and journalists. Increasingly, people want to read reporting or opinions that confirm their own feelings and prejudices. If they read something they disagree with, they react furiously."

MJT, really, why do you do this? You're a smart guy. Your articles on Lebanon were some of the best foreign reporting I've read. I know it's probably easy to just crank yourself up and write 600 words about a 5-word metaphor. And it obviously gets the hits. About 50 comments in 12 hours. But you can do better than this.

Dustin,

re suicide:

"Is the United States torturing prisoners? Three inmates have died in U.S. custody in Afghanistan, and reportedly eighteen prisoners at Guantánamo have attempted suicide; one prisoner there survived after hanging himself but remains unconscious and is not expected to revive. Shah Muhammad, a twenty-year-old Pakistani who was held at Camp X-Ray for eighteen months, told me that he repeatedly tried to kill himself in despair. "They were driving me crazy," he said."

http://www.lawofwar.org/atlantic_monthly.htm

Who is talking about releasing the prisoners?

Amnesty urged Washington to shut down the prison at the U.S. Navy's base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where some 540 men are held on suspicion of links to Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime or the al-Qaida terror network. Some have been jailed for more than three years without charge.

More from the Boston Globe:

In its annual report, Amnesty accused governments around the world of abandoning human rights protections. It said Sudan failed to protect its people from one of the world's worst humanitarian crises and charged Haiti promoted human rights abusers.

But one of the biggest disappointments in the human rights arena was with the United States, Amnesty said, "after evidence came to light that the U.S. administration had sanctioned interrogation techniques that violated the U.N. Convention against Torture.

The problems in this report go beyond the use of the word Gulag, to say the least. As Ms. Khan shrieks, what exactly has she done to help the millions slaughtered in the Congo, the thousands slaughtered in Darfur, the Buddhists murdered by Islamists in Thailand, the hundreds of Iraqis murdered by terrorists and the millions of people who are jailed or silenced by oppressive governments. What job is she being paid to do?

Judging from her words and inaction, she's not being paid to save lives or stop oppression. She is being paid to attack the United States.

The media and hysterics like Ms. Khan turned their anti-US bias up to eleven when the Iraq war started, and they're finally losing credibility as a result. Their predictable response will be to turn it up to twelve, which won't help. As lebanon.profile said, propaganda is propaganda.

In the AI report here there are some interesting recommendations to the UN and the world - actually it's more gibberish and nonsense. Example:

Condemn unequivocally human rights abuses by those who have taken humanity to new depths of bestiality and brutality by blowing up commuter trains in Madrid, taking school children hostage in Beslan, and beheading humanitarian workers in Iraq, but stand firm on the governments' responsibility to bring them to justice within the rule of law and the framework of human rights. Respect for human rights is the best antidote for "terrorism".

What "rule of law" and "framework of human rights" is Kahn talking about? These phrases are sprinkled throughout the report. From what I read I'm guessing she means some mystical, wonderful international law that doesn't exist except in her own mind.

And what about this line, "Respect for human rights is the best antidote for 'terrorism'." WTF? Where did this come from? I thought OBL and his buddies attacked America partly BECAUSE of the West's respect for human rights such as freedom of religion (OBL considers the West as "the enemies of Islam"), freedom to choose your friends (e.g., Israelis), freedom of the press (e.g., you can say bad things about Islam in the US if you want to), etc.

Also of note, according the report on Lebanon, Hezbollah apparently has a squeaky clean record on human rights as they are not even mentioned. Strange. (But the killing of an Al Qaida leader is report worthy.)

The report is essentially all negative - why not report on good events too? What about the millions of Iraqis and Afghanis that are no longer living under brutal regimes? No mention. Why?

Spaniard,

The Pentagon reported that they were launching 30 investigations into the 34 deaths of detainees that have been confirmed in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo. How many of those are torture related I do not know. But we do know at least 2 of them have recently been ruled torture related homicides in Afghanistan.

Part of the problem, exhelodrvr and everyone else, is that torture is very, very rarely done for the purpose of actually extracting information, mostly because it's very difficult to extract information through torture.

If a jihadi were to plant a nuclear bomb in NYC and then be captured, he might be tortured in order to extract information from him. But what good would that do? If the clock were ticking, all he has to do is hold out long enough for the bomb to go off, or hold out as long as he can and then give false information and send everyone off on a wild-goose chase.

But, in the very-unlikely event that someone could extract the information through torture, and use it to save the city, what jury would ever convict the torturer?

Torture remains illegal for lots of very good reasons. There might be situations that arise in which someone feels that torture is the only way to save lots of lives. But in the same way that a person who violates an unjust law through civil disobediance must expect to be punished for it, and just as a soldier who disobeys an unjust order must expect to be punished for it, someone who commits torture for a greater reason must still be held to the same laws as everyone else. He or she should be tried and then, most likely, acquitted.

The whole issue of whether or not we should torture, divorced from the moral problems and the fact that it undermines our war effort, is mooted by the problem that torture basically doesn't work and is usually used for revenge, sadism, punishment, and as a warning to other people who might be tortured. But that's a big failure, too: if we're trying to say, "if we capture you, we'll torture you to death!", then lots of people are going to fight very hard not to get captured, and very few are going to say "well, I will stop fighting out of fear of being tortured". We want people to surrender to us!

Commenter,

although the ticking bomb scenario is highly unlikely, torture can be used to uncover valuable information, such as information about the identities of top AQ operatives. And it can be used to prevent a ticking bomb scenario.

mary: If we shut down the prison, what do the great minds at Amnesty suggest we do with the prisoners?

Put them in a US-based prison. Duh.

Who is talking about releasing the prisoners?

Apparently you are.

The United States one of the biggest disapointments in the human rights arena - compared to the Sudan and Haiti?

Yes, for two reasons. The US sets the standard for the world, and because I expect more from the US than I do from Sudan and Haiti. As I said, it gets pretty disappointing when those who argued for the invasion of Iraq because Hussien practiced human rights abuses start excusing away human rights abuses, and displaying more outrage at criticisms of those human rights abuses than the abuses themselves.

On a related note, scientists have located the portion of the brain that interprets sarcasm. I assume I'm missing part of mine. No word on what causes one to prefer sarcasm to other forms of discourse.

"If we shut down the prison, what do the great minds at Amnesty suggest we do with the prisoners? Maybe Irene Khan can put them up in her guest room. (yes, that's sarcasm)"

Maybe they could do something really radical...like send them back to their home countries? (Yes that's sarcasm)

"The United States one of the biggest disapointments in the human rights arena - compared to the Sudan and Haiti? Arab Islamists are raping, slaughtering people by the tens of thousands for the crime of being black in the Sudan. Their apartheid laws allow and encourage slavery. The fighting in Haiti is between Voodoo followers and cannibals - but the US is the biggest disappointment. Right."

Biggest disappointment is not the same as biggest offender. I doubt even the most hysterical AIites would imply that there were worse human rights violations going on in the United States than in third-world countries or the Sudan. Considering that the United States, a Western Liberal Democracy that is based on values such as human rights and due process, is being implicated in acts of torture and abuse that are more becoming of totalitarian and authoritarian regimes, I'm disappointed as well.

"The problems in this report go beyond the use of the word Gulag, to say the least. As Ms. Khan shrieks, what exactly has she done to help the millions slaughtered in the Congo, the thousands slaughtered in Darfur, the Buddhists murdered by Islamists in Thailand, the hundreds of Iraqis murdered by terrorists and the millions of people who are jailed or silenced by oppressive governments. What job is she being paid to do?"

What is she doing? She's working for groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch who labor tirelessly and relentlessly to document the human rights situation around the world, and try to bring these situations to the attention of those who are ignorant of them, willful or otherwise. Just exactly who do you think is on the ground doing all this reporting about the situation in Sudan and Haiti? Which organizations do you think were detailing human rights abuses in Cuba, China and Venezuela? Who do you think was bringing attention to the human rights tragedy in Iraq when our last two Presidents were too conerned with their golf games to even care about it? It was Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

Now the question to you, who criticizes those who have dedicated their lives to the preservation of Human rights around the world, what are YOU doing from your comfy critical armcahir abou these situations? I'll wager it's not 1/100th of what has been done over the last 25 years by the organization you so casually criticize.

"Put them in a US-based prison. Duh."

You've never watched "Oz", have you? Don't know, but I have my suspicions that Al-Q types might prefer Gitmo to the treatment they'd get at a maximum security federal penitentiary.

Of course, if the U.S. was an Evil Empire, this strikes me as a real good way to make a sticky problem disappear....

Oh, and about the end of your last comment, DPU: sarcasm is fun!

You've never watched "Oz", have you? Don't know, but I have my suspicions that Al-Q types might prefer Gitmo to the treatment they'd get at a maximum security federal penitentiary.

Actually, Oz was one of my favorite shows. And I wasn't talking about the mainstream prison, I was talking about special facilities. Obviously they would need to be far more secure than standard prisons, and would have to be military in nature. Haven't you wondered why the prison is outside the US? Hint - the reason is why AI would like to see it closed down, and refer to it as a gulag.

Commenter,
Why are you skirting the issue I raised? This is very cut-and-dried. Is torture morally/ethically justified if it will result in saving lives? (BTW, there have been instances in Israel where torture did result in information leading to stopping a terrorist attack.)

In my mind, it clearly is justified.

I acknowledge that there are also significant other issues concerning the practicality of it, whether the long-term gains offset the long-term cost, the effect on the people doing the torturing.

VinoVeritas: MJT, really, why do you do this?

I did not go digging for one stupid sentence in a lengthy report. My local newspaper splashed "Gulag of Our Times" on the top of its front page and it annoyed me.

Also, I can't do quality foreign correspondence (or even lame foreign correspondence) on a daily basis. I live in Portland, Oregon, after all. Only so much goes on in these parts.

BTW, there have been instances in Israel where torture did result in information leading to stopping a terrorist attack.)

I dispute that. Israeli interrogators are very, very good, and they mock torture as being hamfisted and ineffective at doing anything but forcing confessions, factual or not.

Israeli interrogators are very, very good, and they mock torture as being hamfisted and ineffective at doing anything but forcing confessions, factual or not.

double,

what does Amnesty International say about Israeli interrogators? It calls them torturers.

Your own comment proves how full of shit Amnesty is.

what does Amnesty International say about Israeli interrogators? It calls them torturers.

Really? Where?

Really? Where?

Look at the Amnesty girliemen cry about "uncomfortable positions", wahahaha!

Torture still used systematically as Israel presents its report to the Committee Against Torture

"Such methods include forcing detainees to remain in painful positions (shabeh), sleep deprivation, hooding, playing raucous music, threats including death threats and violent shaking which can cause death."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150311998?open&of=ENG-313

Look at the Amnesty girliemen cry about "uncomfortable positions", wahahaha!

Sigh. Once again, I make the mistake of taking spaniard seriously, only to bear the usual bitter infantile fruit. When will I learn?

Read "The Dark Heart of Interrogation" for a discussion of the grey area between psychological conditioning and outright torture if you can spend more than a few minutes being serious. Then consider that there is a difference between abuses of prisoners by military personnel and actual interrogation by professionals seeking information. Shaking someone hard enough to kill them may (a) kill them, removing the source of information, or (b) get them to tell you something, which may be the truth, or may be just anything to stop the shaking, which is next to useless.

At any rate, I'm done taking you seriously.

Wow, that was from a report seven years ago.

This year's report on Israel mentions torture twice - one in regards to the military in the occupied territories, and once in regards to no investigation of alleged incidents of torture. I'd say it's a non-issue in Israel.

Sorry, make that "The Dark Art of Interrogation", by Black Hawk Down author Mark Bowden. Well worth it.

Now the question to you, who criticizes those who have dedicated their lives to the preservation of Human rights around the world, what are YOU doing from your comfy critical armcahir abou these situations? I'll wager it's not 1/100th of what has been done over the last 25 years by the organization you so casually criticize.

Unlike Ms. Kahn, I'm not being paid to do anything about Human rights.

However, I did vote for the president who dismantled the regime of a mass murdering dictator, introduced the idea of democracy to the Arab world and helped the Marsh Arabs. And, despite his many, many faults, I'm willing to give him credit for the good things he's done.

Through paid and unpaid jobs, (raising kids) I've learned that positive reinforcement accomplishes a lot. Negative reinforcement accomplishes nothing.

Amnesty International, the UN, and knee-jerk critics of the US will complain about America no matter what we do. There is no reason to try to make them happy, because we never will.

Apparently, we're supposed to take the AI reports seriously but ignore any inflamed rhetoric which strangely seems aimed only at the US.

The reports are serious and they should still be taken seriously. Trying to score extra outrage points on the US ultimately damages AI's message and their credibility. If the defenders of the rhetoric can't see that, then there's nothing left to say that will change their minds..

AI's reputation would be much better served if their figures were left to speak for themselves and the editorializing left to others. Lord knows that there's no shortage of editorializers! Why does AI insist that its mission is to be one too?

It's a neat trick to give half of all Americans a reason not to take you seriously, especially when the topic is as serious as it is and an American politcal consensus would go a long way toward correcting any abuses.

One has to assume that correcting the abuses isn't the first goal of that rhetoric. And having gotten this far, it's easy to see that it's not meant to shame either. What is left as a motive for this rhetoric? Simple America bashing perhaps? Or Bush Administration bashing? Perhaps the aggregate views of their donors correlates strongly with such bashing...

Wow, that was from a report seven years ago.

double,

oh I see, so Amnesty USED TO BE full of shit, but they aren't any longer. Good one. For someone as smart as you think you are, you're pretty dense.

The cite I offered you was recent enough, and there were more recent ones yet. Also, the cite refers to interrogation, not abuses by the military in the occupied territories, as you imply. Nice try.

Yes, I've read that very same article on torture and it's irrelevant, as you don't have to convince me that Israelis aren't the torturers Amnesty and the tree huggers claim they are.

AI's reputation would be much better served if their figures were left to speak for themselves and the editorializing left to others. Lord knows that there's no shortage of editorializers! Why does AI insist that its mission is to be one too?

Sixty years ago, out of the ashes of the Second World War, a new world order came into being, putting respect for human rights alongside peace, security and development as the primary objectives of the UN. Today, the UN appears unable and unwilling to hold its member states to account.

In the latest incident of paralysis, the UN Security Council has failed to muster the will to take effective action on Darfur. In this case it was held hostage to China's oil interests and Russia's trade in arms. The outcome is that poorly equipped African Union monitors stand by helplessly and bear witness to war crimes and crimes against humanity. It remains to be seen whether the UN Security Council will act on the recommendation of the International Commission of Inquiry to refer Darfur to the International Criminal Court.

The UN Commission on Human Rights has become a forum for horse-trading on human rights. Last year, the Commission dropped Iraq from scrutiny, could not agree on action on Chechnya, Nepal or Zimbabwe, and was silent on Guantánamo Bay.

OK. I'll play.

Where are the loaded terms? You known, like gulag?

Does it even mention who the perps are?

Are there any perps at all or is the Darfur region somehow committing war crimes?

What other group of notorious yet well-known perpetrators are used to highlight the grievousness of the crimes of these unnamed perps?

What other notorious atrocity is used as a basis for comparison?

"...incident of paralysis..."

"...held hostage to China's oil interests and Russia's trade in arms."

"..African Union monitors stand by helplessly and bear witness to war crimes.."

"The UN Commission on Human Rights has become a forum for horse-trading on human rights."

These all use emotionally charged terms.

Yes. I don't know how I could have been so confused. Paralysis is a perfect metaphor for the deaths of millions of people, just like gulag. What was I thinking? Is your sarcasm detector going off? You know, recent reports say that the part of the brain capable of understanding sarcasm has now been identified. You haven't bumped you head lately have you?

Do you think it is interesting in the least that the actual perpetrators in your example are never mentioned?

What about the term gulag? Do you understand that it is a metaphor for the governmental abuse and deaths of millions of innocent people? Even more than the Holocaust?

What is someone trying to say when this metaphor is applied to the deaths of a few dozen people unsanctioned by law or government; even when all the known facts are from OFFICIAL government reports resulting from OFFICIAL government investigations?

If the defenders of the rhetoric can't see that, then there's nothing left to say that will change their minds.

These all use emotionally charged terms.

lurker,

so now "Gulag of our times" was just an emotionally charged term. Do you need any further proof of this Canadian Lefist's intellectual dishonesty?

Lurker, all I wanted to know was whether you thought that bit of editorializing was reasonable or not.

spaniard,
Yeah, Gitmo is a human tragedy on the same scale as the deaths of 10's of millions in Siberian prison camps. It's the same damn thing. The US is just as bad as the Soviet Union. There's no difference.

{Lurker is now putting on his NASCAR cap)
Yep. Uh huh. That there's moral equivalence all right. Yep. Shore is.
(removes cap)

I'm even granting that AI does important work for the most part. I just don't understand why they'd want to undermine their good works by silly rhetorical stretches.

Aw geez, it's turned into a trollfest sockpuppet parade. This should be pretty ugly. See everyone later.

This seems like a reasonble desciption of what's going on in Sudan. It might even be considered too circumspect. So circumspect in fact, that the parties actually committing the war crimes and crimes against humanity are never even mentioned, let alone providing any idea of their scale.

The terms that you highlighted relate only to the actions and inactions of various third parties, there's no mention of who the victims or the perpetrators are. And there's no judgement as to the scale. Again, contrast this with how the US is descibed.

Perhaps you chose a poor example. I don't know, or really care. Gito is in no way, shape, or form comparable to a gulag. Not in scale. Not in scope. Not in intent. Not in conscience. Not in results. Not even in weather! It is nothing like a Gulag. OK. Maybe it has fence, but that's about it. Do you think AI meant that Gitmo has a fence?

So, from someone generally supportive of AI's mission, I can't understand your continued defense of the gulag metaphor when it is so clearly , CLEARLY, out of line.

Of course if you buy Bush=Hitler and America=Nazi Germany then you'd probably buy Gitmo=Gulag too.

Sorry!
The first paragraph in my previous comment should look like this:

all I wanted to know was whether you thought that bit of editorializing was reasonable or not.

double,

you initiate the ad hominem personal attacks, then you scurry off on your high horse when you run out of gas claiming it's because of a troll fest. How pathetic.

Amnesty is obviously engaged in yet another shameless promotion. They've done it before. They'll do it again. The only variable is the reaction to it. With me, these publicity antics no longer even register on the meter.

This is the first time I've ever heard of AI, and because of their gulag rhetoric, I will be permanently skeptical of them.

Oh boy. It just keeps getting better.

At least we are still taking prisoners.

Lurker - thanks for the link.

WASHINGTON, D.C., May 26 (OneWorld) - Rights watchdog Amnesty International urged foreign governments Wednesday to investigate and prosecute President George W. Bush much as they once did former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet.

If the United States permits the architects of torture policy to get off scot-free, then other nations should step into the breach," William Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA, said in a statement launching Amnesty's annual report.

I knew they'd turn it up to 12.

"Anyway, the gulag of our times is in North Korea.

Michael,

Not be too artifically poetic, but Michael I often feel, when I read your work, like I'm taking a drink of clean , cold spring water after running for 10 miles in the desert when I read comments like this.

I don't have the ability to immediately place it as to why I feel the way I do when I read about the things that we are accused of by organizations like A.N.S.W.E.R. or Amnesty Internat'l; but comments like the one above immediately crystalize for me exactly what it is that is eating at me. Thank you for your intellectual honesty.

Quote:
________________________________________
Amnesty is obviously engaged in yet another shameless promotion. They've done it before. They'll do it again. The only variable is the reaction to it. With me, these publicity antics no longer even register on the meter.
_____________________________________

Still, it is frightening that many - perhaps most - of the people who read about this report will take it seriously. This just becomes further proof of the United States's depravity, especially for those who lack the time and respources to investigate whether or not AI's statements hold up under scrutiny. This thread itself proves that there's no shortage of well-educated "Westerners" whose first instinct is to condone Khan's moral bankruptcy. How do you think the report's going to play out overseas, where hostility towards the U.S. has been drummed up incessantly since 9/11? AI's lunacy will have very real consequences for Americans and foreigners alike; I'd even go so far as to say that the biases shared by AI and other Tranzi organizations help make incidents like the Newsweek-instigated/Koran-flushing riots possible. As long as there are people willing to give such rhetoric a pass it will be everyone's problem. The sad thing is that the U.S. could use an honest foreign or internationalist critique of its actions. This pathetic attempt to pander to the Middle East and much of the EU can never qualify as such.

Michael,

As a fellow Portlander, I must say that I wish there were more of you writing reasoned well thought out postings AND taking action on your beliefs. Most people just run with packs and do not think for themselves which is too bad.

American GULAG indeed!!! These people are fools and criminals.

Amnesty has made itself irrelevant in the same fashion Newsweek has. Chasing Jihadi sponsorship may bring a needed short term cash transfusion, but this strategy is unsustainable in the long term. Declining patronage is the only real outcome. With declining patronage comes declining revenue. And with declining revenues will come dissolution of influence, relevance, viability. Same process is to be observed looking at the MSM.

Lurker:

It's a neat trick to give half of all Americans a reason not to take you seriously, especially when the topic is as serious as it is and an American politcal consensus would go a long way toward correcting any abuses.

It's an idea of the out-there fringe to assume that everybody who voted against Bush buys into the whole "Bush=Hitler / U.S.=USSR" meme. I don't even think it's conscious; they just assume those who voted correctly did so for the correct reasons.

My guess is the gulag rhetoric turns off waaaayyy more than 50% of Americans, simply because I think way more than 50% of Americans are neither ideologically blinded nor butt-stupid.

But then, maybe I'm just an optimist.

When an idiot claims 34 or 38 detainees have died in captivity, ask for a breakdown by date, place, and cause of death. If they cannot supply that information they are not worth another second of your time.

Miguel, you bring up an important point. Also,

Worldnetdaily: "Virtually every major news agency in the world has reported without verification that between 15 and 18 Afghanis were killed in the riots. There's just one problem. There is no more evidence for these deaths than there is that a U.S. interrogator flushed a Quran down the toilet. Not a single name of even one victim has been released. No details of the circumstances of the riots were released from any official sources – either U.S. or Afghan."

So what will it be. The blue or the red pill?

"I knew they'd turn it up to 12"--Mary

But doing so ,almost by definition,consigns it to irrelevancy.It is akin to resorting to shouting to make a point.After a very short time the shouting becomes merely annoying,and the message is lost in the din.

The point underlying AI's delusional state was faulty from the beginning.Ranting on more forcefully will not improve its cohesion or logic.Maybe they could do us all a favour and dial it up to maybe a 16 or 17.Then it would merely be laughable. I hope this happens soon however as I am not laughing NOW.

Khan is common Pashtun surname in parts of Pakistan/Afghanistan. I wonder if good Irene's values are skewed by marriage to a follower of the Religion of Peace or his family members who profess allegiance to jihadi sentiments.

Sorry, having a Star Trek II moment here....

"I've done worse than kill you. I've hurt you. And I want to go on.... hurting you."

"Khaaaaaaaan!"

Mika, "The blue or the red pill?"

I have not read all of your comments, but please don't throw The Matrix into a political discussion. It was a crappy movie.

The Matrix was a GREAT movie, until the next two ruined it for me.

Sorry Mikey, but I was never one to follow orders. You'll have to do better than that.

You guys are lucky Totten's out of town.
I think the heavy hand of moderation might have come down a few times.

I thought Porland,Oregon was a foreign contry.

All kidding aside, it's fairly obvous no one tossing the word torture around ever went through SERE . Fascinating training, still hurts on wet days. I can't really get all heart broken about 3 hots and cot , prisoners who are sworn to murder , who will kill or damage themselves for the cause.

Well,later

Mika, I was not giving you orders, but you are acting a bit odd. One month it is Uranium getting blown by the wind on to our heads, and the next month it is annoying movie talk. It all seems like one big crappy plan.

Why don't we just switch the guards at gitmo and abu Gharib, and put stricter rules on behavior and just treat it like a regular jail. We let all these NGO's in so they can see for themselves that things improved?

"We let all these NGO's in so they can see for themselves that things improved?".--Rachel

Is there a requirement that they be let out again or would that be optional?

WAIT! How could I have forgotten. The proper response to bovine pollution is good ol' Death with Dignity! Simply stop giving the cows food and drink, 'til they pass away. Gaia often uses this process to gently end the life of Her sickly creatures. As her beneficent agent, I can do it too! No need to call Mr. Schiavo.

To summarize (on-topic):

The "Gulag" statement is not presented as fact, therefore it is pointless to dispute it with facts. That the actual facts of the report are not being disputed is very telling.

Moreover, taking issue with the statement is on par with making the claim that to be the good guy, you merely have to avoid being as bad as the bad guy.

Uhm, gee, upwards of 90% of those tortured in Abu Ghraib at the time of the scandal were innocent of anything aside from being in the wrong house at the wrong time when the wrong soldier threw a bag on his head for reasons that even he didn't understand.
Good idea supporting toture against such persons as the way to show who is the most bestest democratic country in the world.

No, Stan, you are confusing one part of Abu Ghraib with another. All of the prisoners who had women's underwear placed on their heads were terror suspects. The people you are thinking of were in different parts of the prison. Abu Ghraib is a large prison. When Saddam released a hundred thousand violent criminals and gave them weapons and ammunition, Abu Ghraib was one of the main repositories.

Stan,

the pointing of fingers at their wee wees to embarrass them as a form of torture was only reserved for the very violent ones.

Spaniard,
LOL! That kind of stuff can scar you for life. I'm sure Stan will concur.

---- What are the chances of the next such soldier who is captured by some gang of Saddamists or Wahabbists or Khomeinists? ---

I guess he's refering to how well our boys got treated in gulf war 1. Wow . just wow ..the Saddamites beat the shit out of our servicemen then made happy fun home video's of these men, bruised and dejected..which Peter Arnett got to parade on CNN. Lucky guys. Hitchins is a bloody schmuck

But there's more knee jerk free non reaction from this great post modern writer.

---- This is why one asks wistfully if there is no provision in the procedures of military justice for them to be taken out and shot. ---

Well heck this guy wants a dog leash sporting thumbs up and goofy grinned Lindy England shot for mistreating men in a prison. Hey, that seems fair and just

--- Even the medieval church was smart enough to work this out and to drop the practice.--- *of torture"

The midieval Saddamists, Wahabbists and KKKhomeinists have yet to drop this practice. nuff said.

Micheal do you call for the summary execution of Lindy England. Sorry just using Hitchens style of writing, but answer the question please.

When a piece of trash like this article is deemed noteworthy I figure you just needed something to fill the page. Man you dropped the ball on this one. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

Craig, Chico

Craig: Micheal do you call for the summary execution of Lindy England. Sorry just using Hitchens style of writing, but answer the question please

Note the use of the word "wistfully" in Hitchens' sentence. He wasn't serious. Relax.

Neither Hitchens nor I are in favor of execution in the first place, summary or not.

Why do Conservative folk cite cultural relativism when it suits them and then ignore it when it doesn't. "Our times," I think would land in the last 30 years ... at least as far as generational periods go. We (the US) have the only "civilized" war camp in this past generation. It wouldn't be hard to get the moniker of Gulag, since there's nothing really to compare it to. You can't even compare it to POW camps, since Guatanamo prisoners are not POWs. They're enemy combatants.

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