Moderate Muslims still pray at the mosque, but some say conservatives have created an environment that is overly political,

Are the fascists they really the "conservative" muslims? If so, then orthodox islam IS the enemy after all, something Libs have been denying all along. Or are we to believe that "conservative" islam is just a modern day invention caused by "U.S. foreign policy." If so, then how can it be "conservative." The terms 'new' and 'conservative' are anti-thetical.

And if the conservatives are actually really the radicals, are they really only just a minority in the muslim world? Folks need to get their story straight. We've had enough time to figure this out. So why does it feel like we can't get a straight answer?

We're told islamofascism is a "heresy" of islam we're told. And I'd like to believe that. I'm trying to believe that.

Islamofascism is something "new" caused by "U.S. foreign policy", etc., we're told. Well, that's obviously fallacious. And maybe that's why we can't get it right? Too many Left/Right political agendas clouding the issue.

We've had enough time to figure this out. But I'm convinced nobody really wants to know the truth as much as score political and rhetorical points. It's all about the point-scoring.

The incident which opens the piece illustrates very well why Islam itself, not just "Islamofascists", is dangerous to American democray. To say that most Muslims are peaceful,etc may in fact be true without being as significant as the power that dedicated Muslim jihadists can wield over these collectives. I certainly do not share the view of many that the civil rights of Muslim individuals should be curtailed in any way, but I think it would be a kind of negative hubris to refuse to keep Muslim institutions under surveillance for this kind of phenomenon. The Europeans have done two very stupid and selfdestructive things out of their sense of moral superiority: they have allowed large numbers of Muslim immigrants and they have not helped them to nor demanded of them that they assimilate to the native culture. And now they face the prospect of Eurabia. We may not want to believe that we are in a war with Islam, but what if Islam on the kind of terms I noted above is at war with us? You do not need to have the marjority of Muslims in jihad against America, only enough to make the rest conform or at least not resist. After all, Islam and the West have been in conflict since the 7th century. Just because it is a religion does not mean it is harmless. It is essentially a theocratic missionary religion. Islam is not Buddhism!

From the report:

"Until less than thirty years ago, our relations with the Saudis were generally smooth. We were on the same side in the cold war, and the Saudis valued our support (and we theirs) against Soviet influence in the Mideast. Of course the oil embargo of 1973 created major stress, but the watershed year was 1979, when Khomeini came to power in Iran and extremists took over the holiest of Islam’s shrines, the Mosque in
Mecca, which was under the protection of the Saudi King; it was reclaimed by the Saudis
only after substantial loss of both life and face."

The ultra conservative Saudis have (in contrast to the rest of Islam) have always been extremists, but their policy of exporting hate has been a more recent, political development.

This is more of a political problem than a religious one. In Rwanda, the genocidal Hutus incited hate through the radio. The Saudi government is inciting hate through the mosques. It's a political action and the solution, recognizing that this incitement is illegal and arresting or deporting everyone involved, is political.

The people who inspired the Freedom House report were moderate Muslims. The people who tell the truth about Saudi political activity are often moderate Muslims.

These immigrants are the victims of the extremists, but unlike us, they know who to blame. We should listen to what they have to say.

That this is a political problem more than a religious one seems to be lost on too many commentators from the "ROPMA" crowd. From the beginning, the marriage of the House of Saud to Wahhabism has been one of convenience, and the Saudis continue to use it to extend their geopolitical influence (and overcome their position as a group of yokels).

This requires a considerable amount of hypocrisy on their part, as anyone who sees them stream across the causeway into Bahrain every Thursday can attest. They are not pious people.

The same phenomenon led to the rise of the Taliban. Pakistan, first under Mohammed Zia al Haq, took advantage of U.S. funding of the anti-Soviet mujahideen to spread its own influence throughout Central Asia, via its own (deobandi) form of Salafist Islam.

But Zia wasn't particularly religious, either. And it's important to remember that Pakistan provided some of its most crucial support for movements like the Taliban during Benazir Bhutto's rule (lots on that in Steve Coll's Ghost Wars).

1. Mary - define "moderate Muslim".

2. "Despite these concerns, the critics largely remain silent, fearful of being called "unIslamic" by mosque leaders."

And why is that? Is it possible that it is because the critics ARE "unIslamic"?

3. Which of the following Islamic concepts meets your definition of unacceptably "extremist"?

a. hatred of infidels, Christians and Jews (or preaching that they are inferior to Muslims and should be shunned)
b. punishment for blasphemy of the prophet Muhammed
c. death for apostasy
d. Sharia law (or preaching that as the final goal and intent of Muslims in the west)
e. polygamy
f. child marriage
g. female circumcision, sanctioned wife-beating, honor killing
h. endorsement of violent jihad
i. practice of taqiyyah for the purpose of conversion

What fundamentally remains of Islam once these are all removed? (That is one question I really would like to see answered as these are all unacceptable in my view from an enlightened western perpective)

4. What religious body in Islam has the authority to reform Islam?

I think I’m going to start crying. Why do so many refuse to acknowledge the obvious? Political correctness places us all in severe danger. The Islamic extremists are rarely hindered because they have dark skins. One does not need to write long and convoluted thesis papers. It really is that simple. If these folks possessed blond hair and blue eyes---they would never get away with their nonsense. Race is the third rail. The mere hint, however frivolous, that one is racist is enough to damage you forevermore.

And why is that? Is it possible that it is because the critics ARE "unIslamic"?

And why would the moderates, if indeed they are the majority, be the fearful ones? Doesn't the fact that they are a majority insulate them from being called "unislamic"?

Something isn't right here. If the conservatives are the fringe, how come they aren't run out of town on a rail?

Carlos: "If the conservatives are the fringe, how come they aren't run out of town on a rail?"

The conservatives may not be the majority but the sad fact is that they are the ones who are "Islamic" - not the moderates. Which is precisely why the moderates have no good arguments and why they stand passively in the face of the folks who are quoting directly out of the Koran. The problem is that no matter how long a period goes by where the "real" Muslims are in abeyance - the very real danger will always exist that they will have a resurgence, which is very dangerous. As far as I can see there is simply no way around this sad fact. And the reason for it is very very obvious. The religion itself was founded by a very evil man, and it ultimately depends on him - on his example. There is no CHURCH. There is Muhammed and there is Allah's word - as channeled through a very evil man. Christianity can never represent the same problem ultimately because Jesus was not an evil man. He was a good man. Historically it has been the Church that assumed authority that has perpetrated the evils associated with Christianity - not the example of Jesus himself. This means there is a fundamental difference between the 2 religions and the potential damage they are able to cause. This seems so very obvious! The fact that 1+ billion people have adopted an evil man as their prophet seems to me to be a secondary issue. Start first with the facts!

Christianity can never represent the same problem ultimately because Jesus was not an evil man. He was a good man. Historically it has been the Church that assumed authority that has perpetrated the evils associated with Christianity - not the example of Jesus himself.

That was a perceptive analysis. So no matter how kindly most muslims are, when they get lunatics in their midst, they have no way to respond theologically. And their is no overriding ecclesiastical authority to lay down the law.

Mary, thanks for an excellent, informative, and very important post. I'm not going to join in the nitpicking and hairsplitting; I'll just say that it's important to have information like this so that we know who our real enemies are.

If the mafia placed a few violent agitators into your union, how long would it take to understand your safety was at risk if you challenged them?

I see much of the same dynamic at work in the mosques located in this country.

Carolos: "So no matter how kindly most muslims are, when they get lunatics in their midst, they have no way to respond theologically. And their is no overriding ecclesiastical authority to lay down the law."

BINGO! Collect your prize at the door on the way out. :-)

If the mafia placed a few violent agitators into your union, how long would it take to understand your safety was at risk if you challenged them?

I would like to believe that. Then wouldn't the unions welcome help from law enforcement? And wouldn't mosques be begging the FBI to monitor them?

define moderate Muslims

Moderate Muslims include Asra Q. Nomani, the moderates who requested that Freedom House do this survey, various Sufi groups who have spoken out against Wahhabi extremism.

In fact, these moderate Muslims have done a lot more than our government has done to publicize the negative effects of Saudi influence. Why is that? (It’s not a rhetorical question, I really wonder about that)

There are some nasty features about Islam that leave it open to this extremist interpretation. There are some nasty features about German, Austrian and European culture that led to the development of the Thousand Year Reich.

We fought German fascism by fighting the political problems, not the cultural problems. We have fought this kind of thing successfully before, and we know how to do it. Focusing on the political problems within Islam while leaving the religious issues to sort themselves out isn’t political correctness, it’s pragmatism.

But I could be wrong. Does anyone know a proven, effective method for successfully convincing an entire culture to abandon long-held religious beliefs? If we were to fight this on a religious basis, exactly how, in practical terms, would we do it?

How would we do this quickly enough to save the lives that Saudi, Iranian and other Islamists plan to take?

Carlos: "And wouldn't mosques be begging the FBI to monitor them?"

Many Muslims THEMSELVES are held hostage to their own "religion"(whether due to cultural conditioning or forceful (though largely benign) social pressure, or through much more overt threatening pressure. That is a fact!

I would imagine that the FBI is monitoring mosques. Most likley with the covert help of moderates. I don't think we can afford another David Koresh type incident. It should be defused as early as possible on a case by case basis.

However, should some sort of massive attack occur within the U.S., all bets are off.

Mary - "There are some nasty features about German, Austrian and European culture that led to the development of the Thousand Year Reich."

First of all - no nationalism compares to religion in terms of the hold it has on the individual Ego. National lines get redrawn all the time. Religious belief is far far more pernicious. To challenge something so deep seated to a person's identity is simply on a different order of threat. To start with - Islam makes abundant use of the image of eternal "HELL". That is very very frightening. Islam keeps a great many of its adherents through sheer FEAR.

"If we were to fight this on a religious basis, exactly how, in practical terms, would we do it?"

Mary - I don't know the answer to that right now. I think we should start by trying to speak the truth about Islam - and that means speaking the truth about Muhammed (cause as a "religion" it all pretty much follows from there). But as it is - it seems there are not many people who are willing to face the basic facts about it. I think I do know why. I think its because people are very very afraid of people freaking out and just starting hate crimes and killing people and so on. That is the very last thing I would want and I would be among the first to try to stop such a thing should I see it happening. But it seems to me that rational people can not continue trying to lie about Islam, simply in the interest of preventing such an outcome. Maybe many people don't read this site? Maybe its safe to talk about it here without trying to inflame hysterical people? God - I hope so - or I wouldn't even be posting this. But we need to start with the facts. Starting with the facts might actually lead to the most intelligent solution to the problem (even if I don't know what that is right now) - than starting with a fantasy about Islam.

“Does anyone know a proven, effective method for successfully convincing an entire culture to abandon long-held religious beliefs?”

Oh gosh, I most certainly do. When do I get my gold star to put on my forehead? Will I get the Nobel Prize? The answer is that you entice the religious adherents to strive for the good life. Let me make it real simple: if you reject modernity, the vast majority of the population will live in poverty. This is why I’m so confident that Iraq is joining the rest of the free world. It appears that a sufficient number of its citizens want to purchase a home, have their teenage boys play soccer, and their daughters obtain an education.

The Protestant Reformation encouraged the Catholic Church to drop it ludicrous usury laws. These regulations prevented the development of a capitalist society. It was literally illegal to loan money at a profit. One can embrace either a reactionary religious culture, or a highly productive economy---you cannot have both.

“Does anyone know a proven, effective method for successfully convincing an entire culture to abandon long-held religious beliefs?”

Maybe we could start by giving every new muslim immigrant a free subscription to Playboy? That would be a good start.

David - I partly agree with you. What I think we need to do is simultaneously limit immigration to the west while at the same time create viable prosperous nations in the Middle East. The first effect that the latter (Bush doctrine) approach should have - is to cause many Muslims to STAY HOME - to stay in the ME because there are plentiful opportunities THERE - rather than immigrating en masse to the west where their religious ideology is fundamentally at odds with enlightenment values. But as long as the ME remains a hellhole they will continue to immigrate here. Maybe they actually need about 100 years or so of modernity coming into their own homelands to confront Islam as an ideology that no longer has a hold on them. But as long as the ME reamins an oppressive hellhole they will continue to come to the west. So that is my perspective - continue on with the Bush doctrine in the ME but at the same time - speak the TRUTH about Islam here in the west (and not bow to this PC, western post-colonialist guilt crap that is all around us).

Oh and obviously - in the meantime - close down those Wahabbi mosques in the U.S. - what are the legal grounds to do so? Sedition? Mary - what do you think? Obviously there are short-term, medium-term, and long-term strategies. What is the best (legal) strategy for going after the immediate (short-term) problem vis a vis Wahabbi-funded mosques in the U.S.?

sammy small -

"If the mafia placed a few violent agitators into your union, how long would it take to understand your safety was at risk if you challenged them?"

Your analogy mirrors the one I use - "It only takes one drunk uncle with a shotgun to screw up a wedding reception" - but the reality is worse.

Most Americans shy from debating the fine points of theology outside of their own faith. The corollary to that is that since very few non-muslims have ever read the Koran they tend to project the sensibilities and character of Christianity (since that is what they are most familiar with) onto any arguments about how to relate to Islam.

That's a loser. A huge loser. Read any recently published translation of the Koran, especially any one published under the aegis of the wahabbist school. The introduction to my version (c. 1995, trans. by Maulana Muhammad Ali in 1917, revised 1951, published by Ahmadiyyah Anjuman Isha'at Islam, Lahore, Inc., USA) rambles on across many pages "clearing up misconceptions" about womens' rights in property, law, marriage, and society... but the verses referenced to display equality or moderation are strangely discordant with the point the author stated he wanted to make.

Islam is submission. There is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is his messenger. Every word of the Koran is illuminated, and literal, and apostasy is the label for anyone who would question the words.

Read the book. The chapters, or suras, are relatively short. Mark down those passages that jump out at you as being potential problems for the functioning of democracy, or merely coexisting with infidels. Note that temporal existence is part and parcel of a mystic existence, and that paradise or hell can be purchased by specific earthly actions. Put a postit on those pages and underline the verses. When you are done, go back and read what you have gleaned. The first time I did this was in 1983 and into 1984. I bought another Koran in 2001.

I spent a total of about six hours in five different visits with imams of the Salt Lake Muslim Center in an effort to seek explanation of the questions my reading of the Koran has raised.
My last visit was in 2004. I know enough about where they are coming from, vis a vis the Koran, to be very concerned about our ability to induce democracy across the mideast. Western diplomacy is poorly suited to deal with Islam; I still support the effort, despite the considerable challenges to be overcome because even though I'm just a banjo-picking slackjawed unibrow I like to think that there is a way short of a war of annihalation to resolve this conflict. I believe that people can change, and that they are likely to act in their interests whenever the perceived benefit to them is a worth the effort.

I hope I'm right.

The words are there, in verses, and books, and scores of parables. Words that are by orthodox theocratic standards are demanded to be taken literally. Words that allow "extremists" to deny any such label by merely pointing at the scripture in their hands.

Read the book.

Caroline -

Dogmatically, there is no seperation of secular authority from theocratic rule in a "real" Islamic republic.

The Sauds rule as "defenders of the Faith", a title conferred by the state- supported wahabbist/salafist theocracy.

I think that a legal challenge to the probity of Saudi supported mosques and madrassas on the grounds they are in reality subversive political missions could be successful were it not for the ridiculous P.C. atmosphere we live in. I fear we are going to have to take another hit, one that can be traced back to the sleepers supported by this network, before we get serious about dealing with this threat.

And to those who would cry "What, and close down St. Patricks next?!" I say "Sure, just as soon as the Pope calls for the deaths of Baptists and publishes instructions, video sermons, pamphlets, and writes checks to accomplish that end".

TmjUtah: "were it not for the ridiculous P.C. atmosphere we live in."

Tmj - frankly - I'm not sure what could be more obvious than that? What does it take? One mind at a time to see it? There is frankly so much to overcome - liberal guilt, post-colonial guilt - folks willing to point the finger at white Christians - and say - who are you the hell to talk? To tell the truth, I've been beating myself over the head asking - where are the feminists for God sake? Recently I found this excellent article which explained a whole lot (warning - its long but it explains alot about the silence of the feminist movement in confronting Islam nonetheless). I had no idea that academia had become so utterly ridiculous and divorced from reality:

Why Feminism is AWOL on Islam

"I fear we are going to have to take another hit, one that can be traced back to the sleepers supported by this network, before we get serious about dealing with this threat."

I don't just fear it - I KNOW it!

Ah yes. The obligatory Scary Muslim post. We haven't had one for at least a few days.

Benjamin - it must be nice to sit in your high rise office in Hong Kong or whatever it is and take pot shots at what is it - Americans? - while never offering any solutions to any problems - at least that I have ever seen. Bully for you old boy.

Caroline – From the Freedom House report:

"Not only does the government of Saudi Arabia not have a right – under the First Amendment or any other legal document – to spread hate ideology within U.S. borders, it is committing a human rights violation by doing so. A government that advocates religious intolerance and hatred violates the religious freedom and tolerance provisions of Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights."

According to the report, “Wahhabi extremism is more than hate speech; it is a totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence”

If the government wanted to pursue it, plainly stating that the Saudi support of American mosques is, as TmjUtah said, politically subversive is a good place to start.

This report provides proof, the government just has to take action. I hope they do.

Bill Herbert – I got the impression that most Arabs think the Saudis are a bunch of yokels. I guess that was right. I’ve also gotten the impression that the Saudis are one of the most hated groups in the Muslim world. Most call them ‘usurpers to the throne’.

The British gave the Saudis control over Mecca and Medina, but plus their money, doesn’t seem to get them any respect. They’ve never really earned it.

Just an FYI - This is from FDR’s declaration of War after Pearl Harbor:

"I believe I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again. Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory, and our interests are in grave danger. With confidence in our armed forces-with the unbounded determination of our people-we will gain the inevitable triumph-so help us God. I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire."

There is no promise to bring Democracy to Japan, no promise to respect Shinto or their worship of the Emperor, no plans to reform those beliefs, eliminate poverty and no exit strategy.

That’s how it was done, and it worked.

Not an edit - merely a clarification to a line in one of my above posts:

"I think that a legal challenge to the probity of Saudi- supported mosques and madrassas on the grounds they are in reality covert political missions controlled and directed by organizations known to support Islamist terror could be successful were it not for the ridiculous P.C. atmosphere we live in."

More or less, more or less...

TmjUtah

Maybe throw in a little RICO too if it can be worked into their money flow.

Benjamin - it must be nice to sit in your high rise office in Hong Kong or whatever it is and take pot shots at what is it - Americans? - while never offering any solutions to any problems - at least that I have ever seen.

If we go into Iraq bad, if we look closer to home, also bad. These squawkers have only one goal, and that is to force us into a total paralysis. And if another attack comes, you know who they'll blame. Meanie rightwingers who provoked otherwise peaceloving muslims into a fury, or in the alternative negligent rightwingers asleep at the wheel. The squawkers can't lose. Ignore them. They're just litter yippers trying to nip at our heels.

TjmUtah

I'm no Koran expert. I know only what I've read in blogs and various books on the subject.

I'm sure that a significant portion of Moslems in this country don't follow strict interpretations of the Koran, just as many Christians don't take everything written in the Bible verbatim. Take out the Wahhabi influence and maybe it would eventually seek a more centered position.

But I would agree that democracy and Sharia are diametrically opposite. This incident sealed it for me, and I will never forget what it signifies:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

Sammy -

"I'm sure that a significant portion of Moslems in this country don't follow strict interpretations of the Koran, just as many Christians don't take everything written in the Bible verbatim. Take out the Wahhabi influence and maybe it would eventually seek a more centered position."

I don't know any such thing. What do I know? I know that supposedly "moderate" Muslims under the guise of respectable organization like CAIR generate a substantial amount of agitprop and propaganda that originates inside this country in aid of the Islamist movement. I know that Houston and Michigan are home to more unassimilated Arab/Muslims than live in any one city in the mideast. I know that as long as we equate "mosque" with "house of worship" we are providing safe haven for the people who ELSEWHERE (thus far) find scores of people to slip on exploding jockstraps or drive car bombs on any given day of the week.

RICO may well eventually come into play; I have to hope that ongoing intelligence and surveillance product is good enough to warrant leaving the mosques and madrassas operational up until now.

I've waited for "moderate" Muslims for twenty two years. The only ones that come to mind are hiding in police protection in various countries around the world.

That should give anyone pause. In a western world ready to confront the threat, it would. We aren't there yet.

Benjamin - it must be nice to sit in your high rise office in Hong Kong or whatever it is and take pot shots at what is it - Americans?

The obligatory accusation of anti-Americanism :-)

Benjamin,

it only followed your obligatory accusation. Did you not notice that?

Carlos

Are you denying that these Muslims are scary?

I got a lift from a bearded fundamentalist taxi driver the other day. I was gripping my seat in terror, my eyes fixed on a spot straight ahead. Terrible experience. I had to have a lie down.

Benjamin,

is this the post where I'm supposed to prove to you that I'm not afraid of muslims.

Why don't you address the merits Mary Madigan's post. You still haven't done that. You just came in and made your obligatory anti-muslim accusation.

Random thoughts:

1. Wasn't it Stalin who said (paraphrasing) "Religion is like a nail, the more you hammer it, the deeper you drive it in." Even if you think Mohammed was evil and Islam is hopelessly corrupt as theology (ftr I think neither), then using that argument, especially with Muslims is bound for failure. You may feel righteous for having spoken the truth as you believe it, but you will fail in the more important task of strengthening moderates.

2. You'll never succeed in convincing people to kill a sacred cow. You can sometimes distract them long enough for the cow to die of starvation. Modernity and earned prosperity are wonderful ways of distracting people (found riches otoh like vast oil reserves, tend to corrupt societies).

3. The highest service that theologians in any religion can perform is watering down the wording of sacred texts. The quest for revealed Truth is very often destructive. Fundamentalism is inherently inhumane and almost always leads to lousy social policy.

4. A hundred years ago, the great majority of intellectuals in every country of the middle east were pro-western. They no longer are. WTF happened?

I'd say that any coherent policy for dealing with radical, politicized Islam needs to take these points into consideration.

"Historically it has been the Church that assumed authority that has perpetrated the evils associated with Christianity - not the example of Jesus himself."

Caroline, unfortunately we don’t have very much on the historical Jesus that goes beyond contemporary aggrandizing legends but if you look at the story of him “cleansing the temple” you find pretty violent behavior. He also advises his disciples to buy a sword (Luke 22:36). The reason for his later pacifist teachings is most likely lack of political power.

Muhammad on the other hand succeeded in establishing Islamic rule by military means. His teaching therefore reflects the belief that God’s hand guided his sword even during the infamous beheading hundreds of captive Jews in the battle of the moat (ditch).

Very much alike the Crusaders were wading “knee-deep in blood” after their conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 (vividly remembered by UBL).

The antidote is separation of state and church and the secularization of public life and I agree that free Playboy subscriptions would be a good start. Unfortunately Judge Thompson and the Christian Right seem to have other ideas.

There have been times when americans thought that catholics, "papists", were a menace to the society and had to be suppressed.

And there've been times we thought that about jews, "kikes" etc.

It's just the muslims' turn in the barrel. That's all.

I've waited for "moderate" Muslims for twenty two years. The only ones that come to mind are hiding in police protection in various countries around the world.

I knew it was only a matter of time before this degenerated into an LGF comment thread.

A question for ya, TmjUtah: Do you even know any Muslims? You may want to try talking to a few before you make such an asinine categorical statement.

Islam is how it is practiced, and certainly the majority of the Muslims I've met (I live in Bahrain, and know quite a few, including some bloggers, and I even dated one -- a muslim, not a blogger) don't fit the stereotype you've created by immersing yourself in the Koran.

And on that note, not sure what you mean when you assert that the verses in the Koran are "literal." Gosh, I thought all written things were literal, and that interpretation was up to, you know, the interpreter. How do words inherently reject less stringent interpretations?

Of course Islam, especially whn defined as a literal interpretation of the Koran, is not so compatible with Liberalism or political pluralism. But I'm not sure any form of theocracy --regardless of which religion or denomination gets to apply it -- would be.

That's not to say that everything is hunky-dory within this region. Not a day goes by that I don't read or hear the most vile pro-terrorist rhetoric you can imagine. And despite the fact that these people are not in the majority, there is definitely an intimidation factor -- and the ability of the extremists to paint their opponents as American and/or Zionist pawns is no small part of that. And keep in mind, we are not just unpopular with Salafis. Even people with a secular bent are, by and large, very much opposed to our policies here. And there's the fact that fundamentalists are often associated with, or at least endorse, violence against their enemies. That, to answer Carlos' question on the subject, can have a chilling effect, even against a majority.

But there are far more Muslims speaking out against fundamentalism here than is portrayed in Western media -- especially among the blogs that define Middle East media by the cherry-picked pieces of hate speech translated by MEMRI.

I'll close this long-winded screed by noting that there is also a widespread belief here that our war against terrorism is really a war against muslims. There are a lot of us here trying to change that perception, and we have one thing to say to people like TmjUtah:

Stop. You're not helping.

What is it Bill - a total one-way street? Half the Middle-East can rant on with their US hatred but God forbid an American should tell it like they see it. Isn't it the case that all that anti-American rhetoric causes us Americans to turn around and question our own contribution to the problem? So sorry - but it cuts both ways. A little Islamophobia - like a little anti-Americanism is probably a good thing. Keeps folks self-reflecting.

"But there are far more Muslims speaking out against fundamentalism here than is portrayed in Western media"

Glad to hear it. Louder please.

Carlos: Too many Left/Right political agendas clouding the issue

Here, Here. What we need is a leader with both balls and clarity. GWB has shown he's got a pair, but refuses to take the necessary steps to out our true nemesis. Can't look to the Dems either, thier heads are still firmly planted in the sand (or one of their orafices).

Benjamin,

Your kneejerk reaction has become too terribly predictable. If a white supremacists heavily influence my church, I will be on the phone with the FBI. If they threaten my family, they disappear. I don't see the same willingness on the part of muslims to take control of their places of worship, and expel or destroy the purveyors of extremist ideology. Could it be because the majority sympathize?

This weekend Al-Zawahiri made a fatal mistake. He proclaimed against democracy. Not Western aggression, but democracy. Nothing can pivot more Americans, more westerners, against an enemy than a direct attack against individual self-determination. CNN knows this and therefore ran the headline "Terror leader rails againts U.S. foreign policy". Not "Terrorist decries 'Democracy'".

The left doesn't want a confrontation, like a battered wife, they continuously make excuses. The right doesn't want to confront everybody because it could rattle too many cages and, god forbid, hurt their bottom line. However, there is an enemy afoot here people, and it manifests itself in religious ideology. Kings, Dictators, Despots, Theocrats; they all seek to limit personal liberty and it is our abolute duty, as members of humanity, to sacrifice our lives, our wealth, our blood, in order to subvert and destroy those who threaten our freedom and the freedom of others.

The Islamist, Jihadist, Islamo-fascist swine will not be permitted to walk the earth. The sooner our government is ready and willing point the finger at them inside and out of our borders, and take action against them, the closer we are to securing our own peaceful existence. They should know that if the representatives of the people will do nothing, then the people will do it for themselves.

No, Caroline, it's not a total one-way street. I'd like to see an end to Salafist extremism just as you would. It just gets a little difficult trying to inveigh against them -- and encourage Muslims to do so -- when we have people like you on our side.

The question is, what does the government plan to do about it?

Absolutely nothing. As Mr. Totten said, those who agreed with Mr. Bush's record voted for him, and he won. So he's going to keep doing what he's been doing. You had an opportunity to affect US policy in this area, and you chose not to. Enjoy the next four years.

Bill -

I don't have any Muslim friends at this time. They aren't thick on the ground here in Utah.

When I lived in L.A. county I worked for a Jordanian emigre engineer (Orthodox Christian, no Muslim) and as a result I was in at least weekly contact with clients from all over the mideast, mostly Jordanian but plenty of Saudis, Paks, and Egyptians. Did you know that there is (at least was, in the late eighties) a sizable Palestinian population in L.A., mostly engaged in real estate and various levels of public works/construction trades?

When I accent the "literal" of the Koran, I am pointing out that the commands of submission and jihad are the cornerstone of the theocrats' status and ability to command operations across the world.

There is a fundamental difference between the Koran and the Bible. You will find nothing remotely similar to "render unto Caesar" in the Koran.

My limited experience in the region itself was nonetheless very valuable. I was able to drag myself back from simple white hate to the point where I became capable of studying the Koran, contacting Muslims, and attempting to understand the nature of the religion and just what drove fundamentalist Islam.

(Background: I buried my best friend after the Beirut bombing, and lost six other acquaintenances at the same time. I survived a harrowing experience as a passenger along for my mom's ride through the depths of televangelism during the seventies. I have had direct experience with the fallout of religious extremism run amok.}

Bill, you say that MEMRI cherry picks. It seems to me that the majority of translations they print are articles from state run papers.

The armed conflict between fundamentalist Islam and western civilization has accelerated for over half a century. If there is indeed a "moderate" Islam out there, it needs to make itself heard before a point of no return is crossed. The vast majority of Americans aren't going to be interested in nuances of philosophy once a nuke, dirty bomb, or plague is employed as an act of desperation by a terror organization operating under the aegis of some identifiable country like Iran or Syria or Saudi Arabia.

I fully accept that there may be a majority of Muslims that don't want an earthly jihad. The problem is that the governments they have come to live under rarely, if ever, care a whit for what the majority thinks. The major players in global Islamist terror are merely exporting the anger and hopelessness of their own barbaric regimes. The Bush Doctrine is aimed at correcting that situation in much the same way we set out to head off the diplomatic failures of Versailles following victory in World War 2. Populations that live in hopelessness, fear, and ignorance are fertile grounds for fanatics looking for a cause. If we do not succeed in our aims to secure our safety via freeing the populations of the mideast, then we are left with the only other historical precedent for deciding clashes between east and west.

As Caroline says, "faster, please".

Well Bill,

Unfortunately we have a clash of cultures and of ideologies. You see my side hasn't ever attacked theirs for their culture and their religion, yet they have done so to mine. We don't have a thriving sect of our culture and religion that advocates and seeks to justify the butchering of innocents, and we don't try to subjugate peoples based on the totalitarian beliefs of an ancient religious prophet. They have and do.

An enemy has stood up, singled us out, and challenged our right to exist. The only way to defeat such an enemy is to utterly crush and destroy them and everything they stand for. All those in the middle either have to choose sides and risk destruction, or get the hell out of our way. Life may be full of shades of grey, but difference between life and death is pretty black and white to me.

"What is it Bill - a total one-way street? Half the Middle-East can rant on with their US hatred but God forbid an American should tell it like they see it. Isn't it the case that all that anti-American rhetoric causes us Americans to turn around and question our own contribution to the problem? So sorry - but it cuts both ways."

Yes, it cuts both ways. It's a cycle. They egg you on and you egg them on. They tell arabs what a threat you are and you tell americans what a threat they are.

It's an implicit agreement you have with them, you cooperate to help them scare their people and they cooperate with you to help you scare us.

You guys don't even need to make an explicit deal. You both know what to do without discussing it. You don't have to admit you're on the same side, the side that wants to stir things up into open war.

J. Thomas,

Have you ever been in a fist fight? Ever ended up being friendly with, if not even respecting one another after it was over? Conflict is inevitable, it's in our nature as human beings. Fortunaely though, periods of conflict are typically followed by periods of relative peace.

To back away is to capitulate, to fight is to be free. America was attacked and will continue to be attacked until we 'beat' the fight out of them. When they are content to simply exist, then we will be happy to co-exist along with them. Until that time all our days will be bloody, and god willing, so will theirs.

Mike T, there's something to that.

But then, did you ever have an acquaintance who liked to play "Let's you and him fight"? He'd go to a lot of trouble to pick fights for you with other people while he stood by and watched?

And after awhile he didn't seem like such a good friend?

Al qaeda and the neocons are implicitly conspiring together to do that for us.

Al qaeda hit us, and somehow we're fighting afghanistan and iraq and on the edge of fighting iran and syria -- and al qaeda is still egging us on and we aren't hitting them.

I want the top neocons dead the same way I want the top al aqaeda dead. It will please me greatly if ten years from now we're sending teams into other countries to get US neocons hiding there the way the israelis went after nazis. It's likely not to happen, there's a strong chance the neocons will get clean away with lots of money to boot -- but if it happens that we do recognise their treachery and kill them it will be a good thing.

This sounds almost like crazy talk now. But give it 10 years and see how normal it sounds then.

J Thomas - "I want the top neocons dead the same way I want the top al aqaeda dead."

That's an interesting thing to say. How do you define neocon? Who are the top neocons?

Who, exactly, is playing "let's you and him fight" here?

This sounds almost like crazy talk now--Kimmett

Well apart from the qualifying adverb,I believe you are correct.It does sound like crazy talk,and I dare say it will sound equally like crazy talk in the 10 years you reference.
And why is that?
Could it be because it is crazy ?

Kimmitt: "The question is, what does the government plan to do about it?

Absolutely nothing. As Mr. Totten said, those who agreed with Mr. Bush's record voted for him, and he won. So he's going to keep doing what he's been doing. You had an opportunity to affect US policy in this area, and you chose not to. Enjoy the next four years."

And tell me Kimmitt - was John Kerry planning on confronting, monitoring and closing down Wahabbi-funded mosques in the US? Was he planning on dealing seriously with our open borders? Was he planning on racial profiling? No - in fact under pressure from the left in this country he would have suspended the Patriot Act. The Dems are far more mired in political PC bullshit than even the Republicans are.

So you are really full of shit. You just have a major partisan axe to grind. "Enjoy the next four years"? What does that mean Kimmitt? Does it mean that when we get hit with a major terrorist attack folks who voted for Bush will have gotten exactly what they deserve?

J Thomas: "I want the top neocons dead the same way I want the top al aqaeda dead."

So J Thomas thinks the folks who were behind deposing the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein and brought the possibility of political self-determination to the Iraqis are morally equivalent to the religious lunatics who have clearly stated their intention to use WMD against major US population centers, with the ultimate goal of installing a pan-global Islamic caliphate. Got it.

"I want the top neocons dead the same way I want the top al aqaeda dead."

That's about the most sophmoric statement I've ever read on a blog.

Just what would that reality be like? A world without ideologues of ANY stripe?

I guess we could have avoided our own revolution had we just been able to wipe out parliament and the continental congress, right? Or maybe whacking Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo the same day we poisoned FDR's swimming party with Stalin and Churchill could have saved us all that bother in the forties.

Jeeze.

You see my side hasn't ever attacked theirs for their culture and their religion, yet they have done so to mine.

Whatever. I guess I just imagined the comments from Caroline, TmjUtah, and EssEmm.

And LGF, and so on ...

Bill, Asra Q. Nomani's story was publicized by LGF. LGF also published the story of Ikhlas Yassin, a Palestinian woman who was killed by Arafat for collaborating with Israel, (she wasn't a collaborator and the Palestinians tortured her son for the information).

I found out about other moderate muslim groups on LGF. There are some odd commenters there, but the posts that Charles puts up are informative, and it's information that you can't find anywhere else.

In fact, moderate Muslims are consistently ignored by the standard press, despite the fact that they are speaking out.

Bill Herbert -

What does that mean?

Our biggest sin against Islam is paying the OPEC price for oil and ensuring enough world stability for them to sell it to everyone else.

And being infidel, of course.

I wasn't at the table for the Balfour Declaration, and I missed giving counsel to T.E. Lawerence and his boss Auchinleck before then. I didn't get a chance to tell the Brits that playing different Muslim factins against each other in Mesopotamia, Palestine, and Arabia would come back and bite them (and the world) in the ass. If I had just been born seventy or eighty years earlier and had grown up to be a shining star career foreign service officer I like to think I would have gone far out of my way to influence Iran's leadership problems in a much different manner than we ultimately did.

The entire history of the last hundred years of U.S. diplomacy vis a vis the Third World has been a quest for stability, with nary a blink at the cost to the natives of having "our" strong man in charge. Left or Right - it was always easier to have that one unambiguous cigar chomping or oil soaked potentate running things.

Ever wonder why we scare the hell out of even our friends? New Management every four years, pard. Even with our constitution that propensity for sweeping ideological shifts, coupled with our clout, causes lots of folks to sleep fitfully.

There's all sorts of shit that has gone before that I can't do a thing about. Here and now we face a worldwide movement of homicidal barbarian foot troops motivated by mysticism, officered by cult leaders bent on ruling a reincarnated eighth century, supported and exploited by a generally recognised group of despotic nation states and a powerful, numerous, and well- funded school of ONE religion. They aren't the result of American action or inaction - they are an aggregate result of great civilizations and ideologies bumping and rubbing in an increasingly crowded room for hundreds of years. There's no more room any more.

I can't do anything about yesterday. I know damn well what needs to happen today, and hope that when tomorrow comes we still have the will to see the job done.

Hi, Nancy, I'm back.

About the neocons, I'm talking about the top guys, the ones who got the name publicised etc. Perle and his friends. The central thing I can say about them is that they are liars. Since they are liars I can't claim I know where their loyalties lie etc -- anything they say about such things could be a lie.

So it's them I'm concerned with, not the dupes who like some of the things they've said. It isn't an issue whether they're really working in israel's interest against US interest, or whether they really think they're acting in favor of the USA, or whether they think they can further their own interests at the expense of israel and the USA etc. I don't know what they really think. I only look at what they do.

Similarly, Mussolini likely thought he was acting in italy's best interest. "Better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as a sheep." Mussolini wanted to flex italy's muscles and establish italy's rightful place in the world. He tried to use air power to bring civilisation to the benighted ethiopians. But before he was done italy could not even keep foreign armies out of italy. When italians hanged him from a lamppost it was no worse than he deserved.

If within the next ten years the US government or a US mob hangs Perle or Wolfowitz it will be somewhat better than they deserve. They have hurt the USA far worse than bin Ladin has. So far bin Ladin has made two successful attacks on the continental USA, destroyed 4 planes and destroyed or damaged 2 buildings, with about 3000 casualties. Add in a few embasssies and the attack on the USS Cole. Far, far less than the neocon attacks have done to us.

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