Is anyone actually running against Abbas? The only other one I can think of is the terrorist in an Israeli jail who keeps using his hat & the ring as a yo-yo. At any rate, anyone who seems likely to run is going to be at least as rabid as Abbas.

Then imagine an upcoming election where the front-runner, a Republican, not only pledges to protect the death squads from Canadian counter-measures but also brings them along on his campaign.

That is one hell of an analogy Michael.

But I realize you have to throw your Lib buddies a bone from time to time. It's aight.

David,

Everything about my alternate-universe North America is preposterous, and that's the reason I used it. We shouldn't expect less of them than we expect of ourselves.

Republican? I don't know how I could expect less of you.

We shouldn't expect less of them than we expect of ourselves.

To do so is racism-- Lib racism.

I just don't see a responsible Palestine joining the community of nations without a civil war to eliminate Hamas and the other thugs. I'm also not sure enough moderates exist to get the job done.

God help us.

I have given up hope of anything rational coming from the PA or anyone associated with the PA.

"Abbas also said that Israel's planned withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, which is being planned without any Palestinian input, is "unacceptable" and demanded a resumption of peace talks."

Indeed!

Is anyone actually running against Abbas?

There are 6 candidates "running" agaisnt Abbas - but since none of them have any guns or money, the election is a foregone conclusion.

But the other "candidates" are: Khaled Tayseer (Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine), Bassam al-Salhi (People’s Party), Mustafa Barghouti (Al-Mubadara), AlSaid Barakeh (Independent), Abdul Halim Al-Ashqar (Independent residing in the US), and Abdul Karim Shbeir (Independent).

Marwan Barghouti is the only person that could have actually challenged Abbas, but he "dropped out" - and he's the one serving 5 life sentences for multiple counts of conspiracy to commit murder of Israelis - in other words, he would have been the front runner had he decided to "run."

We will push the Canuck Commonwealthers into the Arctic Ocean. I swear it will the blood of a million martyrs. The Holy City of Toronto will be ours.

Totten's right -- the only real solution is to ethnically cleanse the Occupied Territories. Nothing else will even begin to guarantee Israeli security.

Get a friggin' grip, Kimmitt. I never said any such thing and you damn well know it.

Kimmet, Moonbat & David,
Perhaps you could engage with the story that prompted this post instead of wilfully misunderstanding Michael's analogy in order to score cheap points.
What do you actually think of the tactics Abbas has adopted? Obviously you've taken sides in this conflict, which is fair enough, but do you believe the Palestinians will benefit from this stance?
I'm not being a smart-arse, I really want to hear from Palestinian supporters what they think of this report. Because, like Michael, I'm aghast at what Abbas has done.

I was just as disappointed to hear about this as you were, Michael, but, despite that, I still wholeheartedly believe Abbas is a moderate. Or, well, the closest thing to a moderate in Palestinian politics.

Look at it this way...in America, presidential candidates have to pander to some pretty unsavory characters. If you're a Democrat, it's the MoveOn crowd. If you're a Republican, it's the Christian Right. They have to pander, ofcourse, to gain the nomination of their Party and hold their base.

Abbas is pandering, as well. He doesn't have to do it to get anyone's nomination or to hold his electoral base or anything like that. This is one analogy that simply isn't the same. HE HAS TO PANDER TO KEEP THESE TERRORISTS FROM ASSASSINATING HIM!!! Abbas is better for the peace process alive than he is dead, my friend. And, yes, he is committed to it. Look at his record. If this is what he has to do to keep from getting killed, we ought to at least cut him that much slack. The man's not Yasser Arafat, afterall, and things could be much much worse right about now. We need to try and keep that in mind.

And, in an attempt to preempt what I think the response to that comment will be, let me just say...

For the record: Anyone in their right mind who could at all conceive of me as being a "Palestinian supporter" in the sense that I think FISH is using the term is a fool. I support the Israeli people. I support the Palestinian people. I support the Road Map. As such, I fundamentally oppose terrorism. Period.

If he has to pander to terrorists for his own life and to secure the 'peace process' then I truly feel sorry for the State of Israel and the 4 moderate palestenians who have to deal with these people.

How did these people become such a pet project of the left? Do they have any redeeming characteristics at all? I consider myself a progressive internationalist but I roll my eyes whenever I hear the Bush team talking about a palestinian state. I'm sure they'll make a sincere effort but they cannot change wilful savagery and barbarism.

Right on, Grant -- he is pandering. To avoid the fate of Sadat, and of Begin, and of so many others.

But, if he's as moderate as Hamas murderers allow in PA today, there's too much power that Hamas has. It's not clear how to defang them, either -- they shoot opposing viewpoints, too.

I think unilateral pullback is a fine tactic of Israel -- let the Palis be truly responsible for their own internal security. No longer "occupied", but as much as possible ignored by Israel. I couldn't help but imagine an Israeli rocket/ mortar round in the middle of the masked murder supporter marchers.

I think Israel should be focussing on a Free Press in Palestine, over and over stating that it is Pali thugs that stop open debate. I also think Sharon's wall path was a bit PR stupid, in grabbing "too much". While nobody is innocent, the Palis have to change more, and prolly first.

After Abbas gets elected, he'll prolly continue to pander to stay alive; or else make an actual deal with Israel and get murdered. Not an attractive looking future -- pushing to reform the Pali territories w/o "peace", so that the next election (before he dies???) can have a true moderate might be the best that we can expect to see.

And Michael, wouldn't it be better just to delete individual troll posts, quietly, rather than feed them?

Does anyone here watch the West Wing, by the way? They effectively solved the whole Israeli-Palestinian problem earlier this season by internationalizing Jerusalem w/ security in the settlements provided by 20,000 NATO peacekeepers (18,000 or so of which are American).

Ever since I saw that episode I've been wondering what kind of popular support would exist out there for that kind of large-scale investment of troops if it meant a reasonable shot at ending the conflict. The way I see it, Israel would be more likely to support it since the troops are unaffiliated with the UN and mostly American...and that kind of security force could essentially keep a lid on Hamas, accomplishing what the Palestinian Authority couldn't do on its own, giving it time to establish a stable economy and system of law. Then again, that assumes the Palestinian Authority would WANT to put a lid on Hamas if they could, and though I'm hopeful about Abbas, I have my doubts seeing as how that would require an open confrontation with the Fatah wing of the government. That and, worse case scenario, putting nearly 20,000 American troops into Gaza might spark World War 3. Like I said, I've been wondering where people are at on ideas like these. I have mixed feelings.

Thoughts, anyone?

While Israel announces it is withdrawing from Gaza "unilaterally", can we make the case that this represents success of the Palestinian terror actions?

My guess is that Abbas got a liitle nervous after Hamas made such a strong showing in the municipal elections.

They effectively solved the whole Israeli-Palestinian problem earlier this season by internationalizing Jerusalem w/ security in the settlements provided by 20,000 NATO peacekeepers (18,000 or so of which are American).

Everything's so easy in the fantasy world of people of a particular political persuasion (see West Wing).

The "peacekeepers" would do little to stop terrorist infiltrators into Israel; therefore their primary purpose would be to stop an Israeli response. Ain't gonna happen.

Regarding internationalizing Jerusalem, the balestinians had their chance for that solution 50 years ago, but the bus has come and gone on that solution. Aint gonna happen either (nor should it).

Grant is correct: We must praise cowardliness in the face of terrorism to prevent it. It is the logical thing to do. You are just not being reality-based and are being cowboy-unilateral (as usual). Plus I agree with Kimmitt that it is OK to do terrorism when the target is genocidal occupiers. You lose twice, Totten McNecon.

That would be a good point, Ed, if the Israelis were genocidal. I'd imagine that if they were, there'd be a few more mass graves in Gaza et al.

Yea, that West Wing scenario struck me as a bit far-fetched, to say the least. But then again, there was no 9/11 or Iraq war in West Wing's universe, so a troop commitment of that size wouldn't be as big a deal as if we did it now.

What really makes me sick about so many of those who offer their opinion regarding this conflict zone is that most have no true understanding of the history of the region. The most culpable in the Israeli/Palestinian situation isn't either of those two groups it's their surrounding Arab States (and yes, including and in particular Jordan).

Their refusal to alleviate the situation for the Palestinians places them between a rock and a hard place. They refuse to allow them to integrate into the other societies, obtain drivers licenses, own homes or properties. That's not to mention direct instigation and support of terrorist groups.

These nations have exacerbated the situation providing the Palestinians with no other choice for peace and a better life, than to drive the Israeli's into the sea.

Once you see the U.S. not just twisting, but actually breaking the arms of these "other" participants, I believe we will begin to see true progress on the road to peace. (and not I don't mean U.S. boots on the ground in Syria, although the threat of it isn't a bad idea).

Michael --

As you noted yourself, Canada is not occupying the United States. Also, no Americans have been driven from their homes north of the border in order to ensure a sustainable demographics for the zionist colonialists and the jewish refugees whose claim to the Great White North is based on a three thousand-year old deed issued by G-d Himself. Other than that, your analogy is perfect.

In addition to these comments that caught your eye, Abbas has also recently spoken out, IN ARABIC, against the Intifada:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11704133%255E2703,00.html

As a result of such public statements, and similar private ones, Abbas HAS credibility with Ariel Sharon and George Bush. Perhaps they are dupes, but they seem genuinely eager for him to become the Palestinians leader. They think they can do business with him.

But perhaps he also wants a little credibility with PALESTINIANS, and he thinks that telling militants that they will not achieve their long-term goal and that their tactics are terrible but that he will try to protect them from Israeli assasination attempts is a way to do this?

Cut the guy some slack. There is an election coming up, a DEMOCRATIC election, one that only Palestinians get to vote in. Remember, what the Palestinians need is democracy, right? In order to have a convincing win, Abbas has to prove he is not a stooge.

When MJT was talking about right-wing death squads making regular incursions into another country to kill people, I couldn't decide if he was talking about the Israeli hard-right or the Palestinian hard-right. I guess he could have been talking about both!

Michael,

Thanks for writing this post. It is good to see a liberal notice when someone who is not an American does something wrong. I see it as a type of bigotry to only hold one race, nation, religion, etc. to high standards. They cannot help it, they are only ...

Grant McEntire,

Well, here is what I think. I think that in the Balkans, the Soviets suppressed the clash between Serb, Bosnian, and Croat for nearly 50 years. When they left, that region resumed its centuries old war. Merely suppressing a conflict does nothing more that put it on hold. We don't want another protectorate, we want the two sides to grow up. One can play benign parent for a long time, but the people of that area will probably have to learn their lessons on their own. I don't think that a foreign occupation force could have solved the conflict that led to the American Civil War. Likewise, I don't think that a foreign force can solve this conflict.

Nevertheless, one way to get people to take responsibility for their actions is to create consequences for such actions. We help children grow up by punishing and rewarding. So, I think the use of force help such situations, but an occupation cannot in and of itself.

Factcheck,

What about this? "When he talked about death squads making regular incursions into another country to kill people, I could not decide if he was talking about the NAZI army or the American army. I guess he could be talking about both!"

Could it be that in a war, both sides kill? Does that make both sides in a war morally equal? Is the person who kills to defend an innocent little child from death as blameworthy as the person who intends to kill the innocent little child?

That is what I like about all those pacifists. They are so nuanced and sophisticated! No distinction is too fine for them to miss it!

The most culpable in the Israeli/Palestinian situation isn't either of those two groups it's their surrounding Arab States (and yes, including and in particular Jordan).

This is true. Abbas isn’t just pandering to local thugs, he’s pandering to the neighboring states that support them.

Arab nations have the weakest military forces in the area, perhaps in the world. They can’t fight their wars using traditional means. Instead, they lose the military battle, then bog the occupying force down in a messy, terrorist-plagued urban conflict.

Their willingness to knowingly sacrifice their own women and children, and their willingness to use innocents as human shields, gives them an advantage in an urban guerilla war.

They also use terrorism to make someone like Arafat or Abbas appear to be ‘moderate.’ Sure, when compared to Hamas, Abbas is moderate. When compared to Hamas, Mussolini was a moderate. Michael is right, the Palestinians aren't being given much of a choice.

I don’t watch West Wing, but history proves that, if UN controlled American forces occupied Jerusalem, the Arab states would have the perfect setting for their latest ‘insurgent’ urban-terrorist war. Palestinian and Israeli children, American soldiers would start dying like flies.

The UN, the Arab states, and Iran would see their dreams come true. Now they'd have a new chance to deplete the American economy and our power. They'd also have a new chance to blame us for the mess we found ourselves in.

JBP,

I am not a liberal. I was excommunicated, and I voted for George W. Bush.

Grant,

I don't want US troops in the West Bank for two reasons. One, Israelis are perfectly capable of fighting this fight. They aren't comparable to the Northern Alliance or the Peshmerga, who were not military powerful enough to overthrow the Taliban and Saddam Hussein by themselves. Two, it is a real actual quagmire.

I think the wall and separation of the two populations is the best approach. If the Palestinians refuse to negotiate a two-state solution, one will be imposed on them. Almost everyone in the world thinks a two-state solution is best, with the exception of roughly half the Palestinians (according to the polls I've seen) and the Israeli far-right.

The reasons I am optimistic that Abbas has a chance to make real changes in Palestine are threefold: Arafat is dead, the Intefada failed, and Bush was re-elected.

Fighting terrorism works, Sharon does it, and Bush supports it.

It is time for the Palestinians to give up on the intefadas, and I think that many of them know that, and I think there is a real chance that Abbas can make huge strides toward coexistence with Israel. For the Palestinians to give up Victimhood and entitlement and take on responsibility for creating their own state is their only true hope, and I think they are starting to think along those lines.

By staying in Iraq and prevailing by establishing a workable democracy in Iraq, Bush changes everything in the M.E. The reelection of Bush and death of Arafat changed everything.

Or so I hope and pray.

If you think the armed incursions by Israeli settlers are in any way more moral than the armed incursions by Palestinian terrorists, then I have to ask - why do you support terrorism?

Mary, you really are out there. The UN wants to crush America? I hear mind-control satelites are being put in orbit by the Russians. Do you have your electrorepellant headpiece?

Nice moral equivalence, Factcheck. Be sure to let us know the next time the IDF targets civilians instead of terror masters and combatants.

FactCheck - what a misnomer. At what point did I say that the "UN wants to crush America"

Like Europe and most of the Left, the UN would be happy to us taken down a few pegs. They'd also be heppy to see us lose our 'moral authority'.

But, like Europe and most of the Left, they don't want the US to be 'crushed'. Who would pay their bills?

They'd also be heppy to see us lose our 'moral authority'.

Close -- what we'd like to see the US do is actually live up to the requirements of holding moral authority.

Get a friggin' grip, Kimmitt. I never said any such thing and you damn well know it.

Then help me out -- you've made many posts which make clear that Israel cannot see peace from the Occupied Territories at any point in the foreseeable future and that you buy the notion that the average Palestinian does not recognize Israel's right to exist. At that point, what precisely are you advocating to guarantee Israel's security? The status quo does not do it, and you are posting that independence won't either. What's left?

Perhaps we should just let the Isrealis and Pali's duke it out. If this election comes and goes, and the Pali's are still persuing the same agenda then let them go for it, and I say let Isreal go for it as well.

War it seems, is never 'wanted'. However, I think the argument could be made that sometimes it's needed. Either the Palistinain people will force Isreal to bend to their demands, or the Isrealis will have a well-done Gaza Strip (Kinda like a New York Strip, but you eat it with Cous-Cous).

Isreali's would die, Pali's would die, eventually someone would give up and go home. Either way, the violence is concluded. Whats one race more or less out of 6,000,000,000 people?

Or not.

Ratatosk

The UN, the Arab states, and Iran would see their dreams come true. Now they'd have a new chance to deplete the American economy and our power. They'd also have a new chance to blame us for the mess we found ourselves in.
Mary is so very right. Another American footprint in that region only serves to further expose us to additional atrocious acts against our fighting men and women, political exploitation by our enemies, and to another method of draining our economy.
Several times Christopher Hitchens has made the point that we are merely pawns in a much older and deeper conflict within Islam itself. The true war is being fought between the Sunni, the Shia, the Wahhabis, the Sufis, the fundamentalists, the secularists and the pseudo-puritanical dictatorships. Among those who hold power in each of these groups there is the realization that as long as they can convince the masses to unite and kill the “Great Satan”, they will not turn on them and each other.
Therefore the less we expose ourselves to them, the looser their grip on the people, and power, will become. We should not be seeking to kick down doors, but to have those doors unsuspectingly opened to us. The soldiers of the West shouldn’t be in Camo with rifles aimed at rock throwers, we should be dressed as they are, standing beside them, deconstructing their terror machine from the inside out. We should attack them not with “Shock and Awe”, but like a cancer or a virus infecting them and destroying their foundations from within.
My method my not be glorious, honorable or noble, but it will be successful. By exploiting their internal weaknesses, we can inflict on the power brokers a sense of vulnerability, paranoia, and finally defeat.

Tosk,

The balestinians aren't a race. They're simply Jordanians and Egyptians, and there's plenty more of them where they came from.

As you noted yourself, Canada is not occupying the United States.

Markus,

balestinians will continue to make the argument they are "occupied" for as long as their is a jewish state on even a single acre of land, and their terrorist incursions will continue into the jewish state for as long as there exists a jewish state, whatever its boundaries are. That's Hamas, and those are the people the next elected leader of the balestinians is pandering to.

Kimmitt -- the influential hardliner Daniel Pipes believes that the status quo can be maintained for about thirty years, which is the time he thinks it will take for Palestinians to become sufficiently docile to deserve an Israeli pullout from what remains of the Arab lands in the West Bank. And much of Sharon's ruling cabinet believes like Dov Weinglass that after the Gaza pullout and after the wall is built that Israel must hold on to the West Bank "until the Palestinians turn into Finns."

Actually, as a half-Finn, I note that is not such a bad idea. The basic Finnish attitude toward the Russians who took their land in Karelia is that they hate their fucking guts, but they also recognize the stupidity of trying to fight a nation that has such a superior military. For their own sake, Palestinians WOULD be wise to emulate the Finns in this regard.

The moral equivalence is between the settlers and the terrorists, not the IDF and the terrorists.

Do you need links posted to the Settlers commiting acts of terrorism? Perhaps you do.

http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/bc/Qmideast-israel-settlers.RN76_DSH.html

Do you need links posted to the Settlers commiting acts of terrorism? Perhaps you do.

Sounds like a HUGE problem.

It is.

It is.

Based on your link, one act of attempted terrorism, and others released for lack of evidence.

Sounds like a HUGE problem.

David -- So if "Balestinians" do NOT live on occupied territory, but rather on land that legitimately belongs to Israel, how come they don't have Israeli passports, and representatives in the Knesset, as their Israeli Arab brethren do?

Even you know the answer, David, which is the same as the answer to the question of why the establishment of a Jewish state required the dispossession of Palestinians from their homes:

Too many indigenous Arabs in the Promised Land.

Markus,

Adress my point first, then I'll adress your dodge.

Don't be stupid Dave, the killing of innocents by whomever is still murder. These people are fanatics, either Israeli or Palestinian. Whichever way you cut it, if innocents are dying there's a HUGE problem. What we have to come to terms with is that there is no clear cut "Good Guy" or "Bad Guy".

Whichever way you cut it, if innocents are dying there's a HUGE problem. What we have to come to terms with is that there is no clear cut "Good Guy" or "Bad Guy".

I keep hearing how conservatives are "black and white", yet it's you Libs who are unable to make even the simplest moral distinctions. You are so "nuanced" that you've basically erased any distinctions at all. Your thinking couldn't be more simplistic.

The killing of innocents is always tragic, whether intentionally or not. Agreed? But the fact that it is tragic does not determine whether it is right or wrong--especially when their deaths are unintentional. In WWII, many innocents were killed by the Allies, but we don't look back on them as evil because of that. We know who was good and who was bad in WW2, innocent civilians notwithstanding.

So I utterly reject your simple-minded assertion that we are unable to tell the good from the bad simply because innocents get killed.

David -- OK, my turn. I agree that some or even many Palestinians will consider a neighboring Jewish state of any size to be unacceptable, and will therefore continue to claim that their land is occupied even if a viable and sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza -- and a secure wall between it and Israel -- is allowed to come into being. I believe such claims will be much less compelling, and much less popular among Palestinians, if and when they are given enough land to form such a state of their own, and especially if a majority of them prove willing to elect rulers that make Palestinian economic development a higher priority than avenging of the very real Zionist injustices that attended the birth of the Jewish state.

And if I'm wrong in this belief, or if they are not inclined to elect such reasonable leaders, then Israel can retake the West Bank and Gaza, just as they did in 1967. Only this time, it'll take them six hours (at most), rather than six days.

I believe such claims will be much less compelling, and much less popular among Palestinians, if and when they are given enough land to form such a state of their own,

Markus,

how much land would satisfy them. I don't realistically see them getting a better offer than they did under Barak/Clinton. Cmon, even Clinton thought it was a great deal and is still pissed about it. What in heavens name are you waiting for before you realize the Israelis are dealing with an implacable enemy?

Regarding displaced Arabs in '47, had the Arabs accepted partition and had there been no war as a result of their rejection, there wouldn't be any displaced Arabs today. Arabs would be living in a Jewish state, and Jews would be living in an Arab state alongside it.

how much land would satisfy them.

When looking at the formal documents and seals of the "Palestinian Authority" that would be Gaza, the West Bank and all of Israel.

First of all Dave, that's the first time I've EVER been called Liberal. I'm probably more conservative than you are Secondly, I was just putting into perspective that the murder of innocents is a major problem, not asserting any type of morality to either side. Point being that you can't marginalize the death of innocent life, regardless of which side of the line they live on.

Even the most morally clear among us can recognize how convoluted the Israeli/Palestinian situation is. Keep in mind prior to the end of "Detente" with the Soviet Union, and the Iranian Revolution we had a more or less "hands off" policy with Israel. In fact we haven't been "Buddies" with Israel for much more than 20 years or so. This buck got passed to us by the Brits, and it is no better now than it was then.

Also, Palestine is NOT the epicenter of the Islamo-fascist movement, it is merely a flashpoint exploited by those individuals involved with said movement. Therefore it isn't even partially analogous to the struggle with the Social-facists of WWII.

David --

Palestinians deserve a state along the lines of Clinton/Barak's final offer at Taba, December 2000, with additional provisions guaranteeing future access to West Bank aquifiers, most of which (suprise, surprise) happen to sit under land claimed by settlers at some point over the past 35 years.

Neither Palestinians NOR a majority of Israelis were willing to contemplate such a deal in summer 2000. In fact, everyone forgets that Barak's government fell apart because he indicated, after Camp David but BEFORE the start of intifada II, that he was willing to put parts of Arab Jerusalem on the negotiating table.

I think after five years of hell, both sides are more amenable to a viable solution, which requires BOTH sides to lose things they realy want and feel they deserve. Palestinians certainly need to give up a lot: claims to 80 percent of the British mandate and the claim of the right of return to their homes in Israel. Israel has to do its part too. A few outposts in the middle of the West Bank won't cut it.

Regarding your second point, under the original 1947 UN partition plan, the part that was to be the Jewish state was at the time about 50% Arab, and Israel was supposed to grant citizenship to these people. This was too much for a Jewish majority state, and so in the war of independence, the herd was thinned: about half the Arabs were allowed to stay, and the other half, along with their ancestors, became today's refugees, whose return today to their old homes is acknowledged by just about everyone to entail the "demographic annhiilation of the Jewish state."

The demographic viability of a Jewish state depended on Arab dispossession from their homes. For more evidence on this point, try this google search: Hitchens+Palestinians+dispossession.

And Dave,

The views I expressed are objective. On a subjective, personal note, I too watched the video of fat Palestinian whores dancing and yelling in the street on September 11th. I watched as they threw candy to their children. For that reason my daughter got candy when Sheikh Yassin's head went bobbling down the streets of Gaza; and she know's why. She's 5.

The Palestinians have drawn themselves a debt of blood by their murder of U.S. Citizens, and their embrace of our worst horrors. One day that debt will have to be paid in full, plus interest. However, that is between us and them; not us, Israel, and them.

This was too much for a Jewish majority state, and so in the war of independence, the herd was thinned:

Like I said, had there been no rejection of Partition, and no war, there wouldn't have been a "thinning" and there would be no displaced Arabs. They screwed themselves as far as I'm concerned. Had they agreed to partition, they would have owned the future. Stupid Arabs. Now they have to live with it. That's life. I have to live with a lot of my own mistakes too. It sucks, but that's life. Imagine if we lived life blaming others for our own screwups. Some people live their lives that way (see palestinians), others don't.

In fact, everyone forgets that Barak's government fell apart because he indicated, after Camp David but BEFORE the start of intifada II, that he was willing to put parts of Arab Jerusalem on the negotiating table.

To my knowledge, sharing Jerusalem was a go until Arafat took a big dump on Barak's head with Intifada 2. That's when Israelis realized the peaceniks didn't know what the hell they were talking about.

Mike,

I apologize for calling you a Liberal. You most certainly didn't deserve that.

Mike: Not setting up a moral equivalence here, just noting some simple facts, in response to yours: just like you have some personal business you want to take care of with the people of Palestine, they have similar feelings toward YOU, me and rest of our fellow citizens, as a result of all those missles with MADE IN THE USA stickers on them that get fired from IDF helicopters or tanks into Arab neighborhoods and wind up killing those kids unlucky enough to live on the same street as a alleged Hamas member.

David -- Let's say the Arabs had accepted the 1947 partition plan. Do you really think that the first generation of Israeli leaders, from Ben-Gurion on the left to Begin and Shamir on the (far) right, would have allowed the new Jewish state to be overwhelmed demographically within a few years by it non-Jewish (Arab) Israeli citizens? I don't.

The fact is that the establishment of a demographically viable Jewish state in British mandate Palestine required the dispossession of hundreds of thousands of Arabs from their homes, no matter what the size of the Jewish state was to be. This is why those Arabs at the time and their descendents today were and are rightfully pissed off about the whole Zionist enterprise. They need to let go of these grivances, however, and their efforts to avenge or overturn them, in order to have any hope for the future. End of paragraph.

Markus,

Ok then, so therefore the Israeli's would be justified in hatred against the Russians, Czechs and Yugoslav's who have manufactured a great deal of the RPG and small arms supplied to the Palestinians right?

There's a difference between celebrating the military defeat of your enemy, and the massacre of completely innocent civilians. What's more is you're reaching Markus, because those missiles are no longer, and have not been for awhile, manufactured in the old U.S. of A.

Unfortunately for Lockheed, Boeing and the rest of us, Israeli weapons technology has progressed so far that the don't need our missiles anymore.

The Palestinians are not 'children' of the world in any sense; that is the illusion used by them and their "Enlightened" European supporters. They are grown men and women fully capable of understanding right from wrong, and when they murder, or celebrate the murder of, Americans they indict themselves.

Fortunately or unfortunately I am an American Irish Catholic. Which, among other things, means I dont' let shit go, especially when people take action against my countrymen. So yes I do have a bit of a personal problem with the Palestinian people, but it has nothing to do with Israelis and that's what's important.

David -- regarding when the Barak government collapsed, necessitating elections with Sharon. It was actually BEFORE Camp David in 2000:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0700/collapse1.asp

Oh yeah and let's not forget that around the time we started to supply the Israeli's with weapons technology, we need them to have have it every bit as much as they need to have it.

The Soviets were breathing down our necks in Western Europe, South-east Asia had fallen to the Communists, Iran succumbed to an Anti-American Regime, Iraq was still in the U.S.S.R's pocket, and Afghanistan had just been invaded by the Soviet Army. Things were looking grim to say the least. Israel was our only hope to staving them off, and whatever we did at the time to support them was a necessary evil.

That is of course unless you would rather be conscripted into the Soviet military right now, or standing in a bread line.

Mike -- I don't know. If in fact IDF missles are no longer made in the USA, that's a good thing. And I don't like the commies any more than you do. No if you would please excuse me, I'm going to go listen to "Masters of War", by that great Jew from Hibbing, Minnesota.

Mike -- oh wait, I see you're an Irish Catholic. OK, I wonder, do you have a problem with the peace process in Northern Ireland, and with the prospect of Sein Fein becoming a part of the government of "Ulster", even though some Sein Fein members might actually know some former IRA terrorists, might even see them when they shave each morning? I'm just curious if you are more willing to separate the Irish extremists from the justice of their cause than you are willing to separate the Palestinian extremists from theirs.

Mr. Robert Zimmerman is one of the most polific songwriters of our time, that and the fact that he's a fellow Minnesotoan make him fine by me. : )

Well thanks for the debate, I will now be off to pay some poor kid $5 to wheel my fat-post-holiday arse onto the treadmill at the gym. Good night!

Yes you have touched on what is possibly the main source of my empathy towards the Palestinians in their struggle with the Israelis.

To give you perspective my great uncle sent money and bullets to the I.R.A. (pre-provos). And while I can't say it's not a temptation, no I don't separate it. Terrorism, and the killing of innocents is wrong, no matter who's doing it. But it's maybe for that reason that I to this day believe the new state of Israel should never have been established.

Nothing against the Jews, but you just don't uproot and indigineous people for the sake of another (yes I understand the irony of an American making that statement, but I'm a son of 20th century immigrants).

Now with that being said it's there, established and now we have to work with it. Peaceful coexistance is the answer which is attainable, if we can neutralize the Islamo-fascists, the Zionists and the Evangelical Christian Right.

Oh yeah, and if you wear orange on St. Pat's day I'll still punch you in the face. : )

David -- Let's say the Arabs had accepted the 1947 partition plan. Do you really think that the first generation of Israeli leaders, from Ben-Gurion on the left to Begin and Shamir on the (far) right, would have allowed the new Jewish state to be overwhelmed demographically within a few years by it non-Jewish (Arab) Israeli citizens? I don't.

Markus,

I'd rather squander my precious time debating the past and current realities of the middle east instead of on hypotheticals. But if things had turned out as you speculate, then I have a feeling I'd be defending the paleos and you'd be squawking about the poor jew "victims". That's how morally confused you Lefties are.

David -- regarding when the Barak government collapsed, necessitating elections with Sharon. It was actually BEFORE Camp David in 2000:

Markus,

ok, but according to your link, the coalition was collapsing because Barak was going to Camp David without setting any "red lines", not because he gave away half of Jerusalem.

But the paleos again jumped the gun with Intifada 2, just as in '47, and failed to call the Jew's bluff. Stupid, stupid STUPID Arabs. Always on the wrong side of history.

Grant McEntire,

There's no need to shout my name or infer that I'm a fool. You may not have taken sides in this conflict but plenty of intelligent folk have. So I guess that makes you smarter than them. But not smart enough to know it's not necessary to attack when you haven't been attacked yourself.

David -- you said you would answer my "dodge" if I addressed your point about Palestinians considering themselves occupied as long as any entity called "Israel" existed. I addressed that point, now please address mine: if the territories Israel acquired in 1967 legitimately belong to Israel, why doesn't it make the inhabitants of those territories citizens of the state? Certainly when the U.S. conquered Texas in war, it enfranchised residents of that territory. Why can't "the only democracy in the Middle East" do the same?

Factcheck,

It is always nice to see the strawman argument, putting words into my mouth.

When you say "regular incursions" you lead one to believe you are discussing the policy of both nations, not illegal behavior. I wonder why you even point this out. In your mind, does it justify or excuse the Palestinians' behavior?

MJT

So you have renounced liberalism?

Markus:

But your analogy with Texas is basically incorrect.

Texas was not conquered by the United States. Texas won its freedom in the Texan War of Independence (1836), and then petitioned to join the United States several years later (1846, iirc).

The United States fought a war with Mexico (1848) over, among other things, the southern border of Texas, but that is hardly the same thing as "conquering Texas."

As to enfranchising the local population, it is perhaps useful to remember that, after Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the UN did not, in fact, recognize any annexation of the territories.

More to the point, there has been an evolution in the Israeli position. In 1948, the idea was partitioning into two states. In 1967, the territories were to be annexed (something, as I note, opposed by the UN and other nations). Jordan was held to be the proper "Palestinian state."

By the 1990s, the idea of two states had again come to the fore, to the point that today, even a shell-back like Ariel Sharon is basically in favor of some kind of Palestinian state on the West Bank, apart from Jordan.

At the same time, the Palestinian position has evolved in almost symmetrical mirror-image. Remembering that the PLO was established before 1967, the claim was that Israel was the proper Palestinian homeland. The creation of a Palestinian state was the battle-cry throughout the 1970s and 1980s. It was in the 1990s that the clamor for a single state came to the fore (and the Palestinian right of return was elevated to equality with creation of a national state as part of a "just solution").

Finally, it is more than a little ludicrous to argue that a democracy must therefore absorb those who are inimical to its existence. Is West Germany (or Germany today) any less a democracy for denying Turks citizenship, even when they've been there for two or even three generations?

MArkus and David - in case you care, the coalition fell apart before Camp David, but Barak actually survived the no confidence vote, and polls showed that a majority of Israelis were on his side at the time (see http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,341752,00.html). In case you care.

JBP:
You accuse me of putting words into your mouth. I guess I'm a bit confused. I asked the question "If you think the armed incursions by Israeli settlers are in any way more moral than the armed incursions by Palestinian terrorists, then I have to ask - why do you support terrorism?"

I do not see how I state that such armed incursions are the official policy of the Israeli Government, nor that of the Palestinian Authority.

But, I note you failed to answer my question: Why do you support terrorism?

jeremy in nyc -- yes of course I care. thank you for the correction. i hope the fact that barak survived the initial no confidence vote in summer 2000 even after it became clear that Jerusalem was on the negotiating table indicates that, at least in principle, a majority of Israelis are willing to allow the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem to be the capital of the new Palestinian state. To me, this is the litmus test of whether or not religious chauvanism is more important than a just, peaceful and lasting settlement.

FactCheck;

Excuse me for jumping in, but comparing violence by settlers against Palestinian terrorism is a gross distortion. First, there is the simple matter of degree. If you're talking about murder, then you're talking about a minute number of incidents, compared with over a thousand Israelis killed in terrorist attacks during the intifada, I don't even remember the number anymore. Also, there is the reaction of the society at large. The great majority of Israelis abhor the settlers, and the Israeli security services are tireless in monitoring and arresting them. Whereas in the basket case Palestinian society, on a good day only 70% of them approve of suicide bombings, and of course the authorities don't lift a finger to stop them.

The settlers are a terrible problem. They hate Arabs, they harass and victimize them, tear up their olive groves, etc. Most importantly, they occupy and refuse to leave land that the majority of Israelis would like to see returned to the Palestinians, unilaterally or in exchange for peace. But apart from isolated instances, they don't murder them. Why? Because as bad as they are, they still have not embraced murder and death as a religion and a way of life, like the Palestinians.

Not to excuse Abbas' recent tack to the- ahem- hard right, but has anyone considered that this might be an electoral necessity that doesn't shed any real light on Abbas' personal politics? The guy has a long record of being a moderate and of being someone the West and Israel can work with, but he needs some street cred amongst the Palestinian population if he is going to be able to be an effective leader.

You can see the same things in Israeli society. Remember how Shimon Peres pandered (terribly) to the right to try and win an election?

Remember why Rabin was able to sell Israel on Oslo? It was because of his impeccable credentials as a hawk.

Abbas is still a moderate who can be seen as a partner in peace by Israel. If Israel saw it any other way, after all, it would throw its support behind Abbas more publicly in an effort to discredit him.

How about we wait until the guy is elected and has a more substantive record to be judged on before we take him out behind the rhetorical woodshed?

Mike, sorry to say, but your analogy is overly simplistic and doesn't hold up.

Christopher:

I'd have more confidence for actually holding Abbas accountable after the election if there had been any track record of holding Arafat accountable.

Instead, Arafat blew off Barak at Taba, pandered (or was it appealed to) the hard-line militants, and the West's conclusion was that there was more of a need to continue negotiating with him.

For that matter, if there really is a "need" for Abbas to tack towards the militants, including a fear that he might be assassinated, how would that change if he succeeded in being elected? Would his being elected somehow make him immune from Hamas bullets? OR is there some sort of belief that Hamas would not target him, because he had won an election?

if the territories Israel acquired in 1967 legitimately belong to Israel, why doesn't it make the inhabitants of those territories citizens of the state? Certainly when the U.S. conquered Texas in war, it enfranchised residents of that territory. Why can't "the only democracy in the Middle East" do the same?

Markus,

your analogy is flawed, for reasons already stated above by Lurking Observer. Nonetheless, the West Bank hasn't been annexed, therefore no enfranchisement of Arabs living there-- that's why there's a "green line" between it and Israel proper. To date, the final location of the boundary remains unfixed because the territories are still disputed lands because, as you know, those lands weren't a country (not since ancient Israel) but mere possessions of the Ottoman Empire. Therefore, they are not, and never have been part of a balestinian state. When the final border is drawn, those Arabs remaining in Israeli territory will of course be enfranchised, as are all Israeli Arabs. Then will you be satisfied?

Until then, the Israelis will not unilaterally withdraw, and for obvious reasons. I don't know what else you people want.

Lurking Observer-

Not to say that you did, but please please please don't write me off as an Arafat sympathizer or even a Palestinian sympathizer. I'm not ignorant about Hamas, nor am I ignorant about Arafat's failings- not just blowing off Barak at Camp David, but also blowing off Clinton and Barak in January 2001. His decision not to accept that last hail mary (an even better deal than Camp David because the West Bank Territory was contiguous) hurt the Palestinian cause tremendously.

Regarding Hamas, though, it would be impossible for a solution to be arrived at without incorporating them, and it would be a mistake to assume that they can't be persuaded. Remember after The Handshake in 1993? When the momentum was on the side of optimism and peace, Hamas started to fall in line and play ball. It wasn't until Peres assasinated (for political reasons) Yahya Ayyash in January 1996 that Hamas went apocalyptic.

I'm not saying they're savory people, but at a certain point we need to accept that they are- by virtue of their capacity for violence- a part of the process. We don't need to sit down at the same table as Hamas leaders, but the leaders we do sit down with are going to need to have their confidence. In such a fluid environment where the tiniest ripples can turn into tidal waves, the most important thing is finding a steady leader to negotiate with and Abbas is as good a choice as we could hope for these days.

Also... remeber that when Arafat rejected Clinton's final proposal in January 2001, it was shortly after Sharon had visited the Dome. Arafat may have calculated (and he may very well have been correct) that the situation was too tense to make any kind of settlement. A lot had changed, after all, since 1993.

MarkC,

Thanks for jumping in. Apparently, that needed to be said.

Factcheck,

Why do I support terrorism and when will I stop beating my wife? Did it occur to you that I did not answer the question because I don't support terrorism? When an Israeli is found to have committed terrorism, he is punished. When a Palestinian commits acts of terrorism, his, and unfortunately now her, family is rewarded: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1791800.stm http://wtvt.com/investreptr/jihad.html Which, of course, refutes the implication that the Palestinian people and authority do not support their "death squads."

You have failed to answer my question. Do you think those settler's behaviors justify or excuse the Palestinian's behaviors?

Bad behavior does not justify, but explains.

PS:
None of your articles show anything about the PA supporting suicide bombers.

I don't know what else you people want.

For millions of people not to live in a rightsless legal limbo at the hands of a US ally for nearly forty years?

For millions of people not to live in a rightsless legal limbo at the hands of a US ally for nearly forty years?

Then they shouldn't put themselves in that situation. It's very simple.

The sins of the parents are visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generations.

Factcheck,

that's true.

Then they shouldn't put themselves in that situation.

Wait, so the governments of the Arab states which declared war on Israel were democratic in 1967? I'm trying to follow your reasoning here -- I've gotten the part where five year old children have no human rights because their grandparents lost a war, but I'm confused about the part where suddenly dictatorships and monarchies represent the popular will.

Factcheck,

None of your articles show anything about the PA supporting suicide bombers.

You don't think running TV programs that encourage children to become suicide bombers is supporting suicide bombers? What exactly does supporting suicide bombers look like?

The child who is gasping the stone facing the tank, is it not the greatest message to the world when that hero becomes a Shahid? [dies for allah.]
--Yasser Arafat

Wait, so the governments of the Arab states which declared war on Israel were democratic in 1967?

Are you implying that when they declared war they did it against the will of the people? That's a silly thing to say. The Palestinians BEGGED for Arabs to invade, and the Arab people clamored for it.

They wanted war back then, and they still want it.

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