December 16, 2004

To the Woodshed, Once More

Jeff Jarvis takes Juan Cole out behind the woodshed for yet another well-deserved thrashing. He calls the professor pond scum and a hate blogger - and that's just in the title and the first sentence.

(I'm having dinner with Jeff next month in New York. I hope I don't rankle him much between now and then. Somehow I think I'll be okay.)

Posted by Michael J. Totten at December 16, 2004 12:48 PM
Comments

Is anyone defending Cole?

Posted by: Todd Pearson at December 16, 2004 01:02 PM

Hehe, I like the point about how Cole should acknowledge that his blog is fraudulent because it's also outside the mainstream of public opinion.

Posted by: Brainster at December 16, 2004 01:06 PM

Todd: Is anyone defending Cole?

Benjamin will come by and defend him any second now. He'll also say "Juan Cole knows more about the Middle East than Michael Totten does," forgetting that I know more about the Middle East than Benjamin does.

Sorry for pre-empting you, Ben. I just thought I'd save you some time.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 16, 2004 01:11 PM

Enough with Cole. Let's beat up on Chevy Chase for a while instead.

Posted by: Zacek at December 16, 2004 01:23 PM

Didn't Chevy have a talk show once?

Posted by: d-rod at December 16, 2004 01:25 PM

I've never read anything by this guy Cole, but you folks seem to get so hot and bothered by him, I guess I'll have to.

May I have a link, please, or will I have to do my own googling?

Posted by: VinoVeritas at December 16, 2004 01:39 PM

Vinoveritas,

Scroll down and I give you two links. Or follow my link to Jeff's site and he'll give you one.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 16, 2004 01:42 PM

I never liked Chevy Chase much, either. He always just reminded me of a second-rate Steve Martin. A guy I work with does this impression of him from The Jerk. It's killer.

What were we supposed to be talking about, again?

Posted by: Grant McEntire at December 16, 2004 01:44 PM

Here's a thought. Instead of this ludicrous thrashing, why not just not read his blog? Or are his opinions some kind of sinister force that must be reckoned with, or they'll take seed in our vulnerable youth?

Or maybe we should claim that everyone who's slagging Cole is biased and partisan because they're not doing the same to Misha and LGF? Or not fisking Glenn Reynolds for the many, many biased and erroneous opinions he expresses?

Or maybe it's just an easy topic on a slow blog day.

This is so two days ago.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at December 16, 2004 01:53 PM

I confess I've never read Cole's blog at length (on the other hand, I did see Natl Lampoon's Christmas Vacation last night) but how are Cole's views any different than the majority of the Middle East scholars currently installed in North American universities? Would you expect any except a splinter of them to support the Bush Administration's policies in the ME, or not subscribe to the most pessimistic views of Iraq? And for all that, is Cole any less biased or opinionated than any other blogger, regardless of where that blogger fits on the political spectrum (left or right, depending on where Frenchman planted their derrieres in an assembly two hundred years ago; a bit anachronistic itself, no?) The blogosphere, sorry to say, seems to lend itself to internecine sniping and feuds and self congratulatory little popularity contests, all of which IMHO have the tensile strength of the kleenex tissues in the box on my desk.

Posted by: Zacek at December 16, 2004 02:03 PM

Juan Cole is a typical self-loathing Liberal dhimmi.

Posted by: David at December 16, 2004 02:19 PM

You're coming to NYC, Michael? I'll buy you a beer!

Posted by: Steve at December 16, 2004 02:34 PM

I couldn't jump into the previous threads dealing with Cole: too much drama for me right now. I'm not a regular reader of his, and not particularly a fan. While I want to hear the bad news along with the not-so-bad, I question some of his assumptions. I haven't seen anything substantive to indicate that the pro-American Iraqis aren't the good guys for the most part over there. (A recent article for instance in Harper's suggested that U.S./Iraqi forces were responsible for more civilian deaths and injuries than the insurgents, but it didn't back it up with anything concrete.)And while I think any neo-conservative war supporter who hasn't done any second guessing on the Iraqi regime change project given how it has gone needs to have his head examined, I also believe the jury is still out on whether things are getting better and can still eventually turn out ok, for America and Iraq. So undiluted pessimism is inappropriate as well.

But what's more interesting about Cole to me is to note that his views appear to be conventional wisdom not just among the academic leftists, but among otherwise pro-western and pro-reform Arabs and Muslims. Certainly, on my recent trip to Turkey, I heard nothing about present U.S. policy in the Middle East besides, at best, pessimism and cynicism. And I was only talking to worldly, cosmopolitan, anti-fundamentalists.

At the same time, while Coles' views appear to echo what passes for moderation in the Arab world, Arab leaders appear to be moving toward genuninely more moderate positions, and a greater willingness to reconcile with U.S. concerns: listen to what Abu Abbas says these days.

Posted by: Markus Rose at December 16, 2004 02:34 PM

"Didn't Chevy have a talk show once?"

Yep, and before that he was in the movies. Before that, even, he was on Saturday Night Live.

Or so I've read.

"Here's a thought. Instead of this ludicrous thrashing, why not just not read his blog?"

Chevy Chase has a blog?

Posted by: Jim Treacher at December 16, 2004 03:53 PM

This is so two days ago-- DPU

Say,since bashing Juan Cole is so tedious,what say we discuss the IMPORTANT contributions made by Canada in the sphere of world improvement and political philosophy.To make the topic reasonably current we could confine ourselves to just the period represented by the dualing doofusses(doofi?),Chretien & Martin.
Snide second guessing from the bleachers,omni-present self-decided moral superiority, and reflexive anti-Americanism unhappily cannot be counted.
I'm sure that we can spend hours(well at least minutes; OK maybe a minute reviewing the greatness that is both DPU's and my 'true North Strong(snicker)& Free(thanks to the sacrifices of others)'.
What say DPU? At least it's not about Juan(let's hear it for anyone NOT American{or Jewish})Cole.

Posted by: dougf at December 16, 2004 04:42 PM

Michael (or anyone else),

Okay, is any widely-read blog defending Cole? Really -- that is not a rhetorical question. I would be genuinely interested in reading a defense. But I get the feeling that he has been abandoned in this fight.

Posted by: Todd Pearson at December 16, 2004 05:13 PM

Todd,

I hope, for the left's sake, that you're right and that he has been abandoned. I'd like to think my former comrades aren't completely beyond hope yet.

Oliver Willis defends Cold in Jeff's comments section, but that was predictable and means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Al Franken has had Juan Cole on his radio show many times. I like Al. He's a lot more reasonable than his critics (who probably never listen to him) give him credit for. I hope he caught wind of this blog fight.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 16, 2004 05:22 PM

Todd P. asks: Is anyone defending Cole?

Oliver Willis is.

Not particularly strenuously or effectively - all ad homs, no actual arguments. But he's defending him, nonetheless.

Posted by: SoCalJustice at December 16, 2004 05:23 PM

"Certainly, on my recent trip to Turkey, I heard nothing about present U.S. policy in the Middle East besides, at best, pessimism and cynicism...At the same time... Arab leaders appear to be moving toward genuninely more moderate positions, and a greater willingness to reconcile with U.S. concerns.."

Ah - yes - Schizophrenia - fortunately not a terminal condition. But what will we do when the patent on "Bush" expires? Hope that the (cheaper) generics do the trick, I guess...

Posted by: Caroline at December 16, 2004 05:54 PM

"’Cyber-stalking,’ whined Juan Cole of the University of Michigan.”

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1251

Juan Cole has also been taken to task by Daniel Pipes---a man who I greatly admire. I’m afraid that Cole probably numbers among the mainstream within the Middle Eastern academic departments throughout the United States. Most of them may be "pond scum."

Posted by: David Thomson at December 16, 2004 05:57 PM

Chevy Chase is one the most brilliant men of our times.

I am totally serious.

He gets a major network to pay him 9 MILLION DOLLARS to host a talk show, which he barely shows up for, and gets cancelled after, what?, 2 weeks? And he kept all the money.

Fucking Brilliant.

Crappy actor and comedian, but brilliant, nonetheless.

Posted by: Eric Blair at December 16, 2004 06:08 PM

Michael

I defend Cole up to a point. The original post was mainly about general blog issues, fine, although I don't agree with him repeating some of the stuff from Martini. No big deal.

My other thoughts are that this is a silly Blogosphere spat of little consequence, diconnected from reality, and Jeff Jarvis's language is immature in the extreme.

Jarvis's accusations that it might lead to the brothers being harmed stinks of hypocrisy.

If this silly liberal bleeding heart could calm himself for a moment he might just realise that he is increasing the net traffic on this by his OWN actions, his own vent and spleen, increasing the furore. So, if there is any chance of an extremist acting on what Cole or anybody else says, the chances are increased by rubbing the scab, as it were.

And its Jarvis who suggested the possibilty of the brothers being harmed because of this. I hope it doesn't give anybody any ideas. Jarvis is a liberal hypocrite, a blowhard, a media attack dog. I don't like those characters from either party.

Posted by: Benjamin at December 16, 2004 07:07 PM

Thanks double-plus-ungood, you are the most sensible voice here, not only in this section, but other comments from other sections as well.

And, Michael, why does calling someone "pond scum" and a "hate blogger" rank as worthwhile communication for you? Anyone can call anyone else crappy names, it might give you a pleasant self-righteous feeling for a while, but how does it advance a better world? I also found Cole's original comments about, the reasons why that Iraqi killed that "Jewish" looking American, totally uncalled for, and an example of his bias, but he also has a lot of useful information on his site. It is useful information because it provides a contrast and a balance to all those who ignore how bad it is in Iraq right now. I don't like Cole, I don't like his bias, I appreciate that you called him on his comments, but I will still read his blog.

Posted by: miriam at December 16, 2004 07:20 PM

Miriam: And, Michael, why does calling someone "pond scum" and a "hate blogger" rank as worthwhile communication for you?

Obviously that's not the whole of Jeff's argument, or even part of it. It's just a teaser to encourage people to click the link.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 16, 2004 07:45 PM

Gawd Mike
you are such an insufferable piece of shit. Which is worse; begging for votes on Wizshit, or hoping Al Franken sees your sorry "blogfight"?

How sick does your own fucking face make you when you see it in the mirror?

Do us all a favor and leave Portland, please, you make us fucking sick.

And for the record, please tell us why is it you don't enlist? You are so pro-war, love to travel, and have that tough guy photo booth picture (that's probably several years old) on your blog...oh that's right, fightin' is only for the poor suckers, not a genius (cough, cough) like you.

FUCK YOU.

Posted by: Michael A Shitten at December 16, 2004 09:51 PM

Thing-hiding-behind-Jonah-Goldberg's-email:

Have you tried enlisting?

And thank you for your opinion that enlistees are "poor suckers". I'm sure you "support the troops" with that same brain?

Posted by: Eric Anondson at December 16, 2004 10:00 PM

Obviously that person is banned.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 16, 2004 10:13 PM

"Fisty Totten"/"Michael Shitten"/etc.???

"I ain't fightin' a bullshit war for shitbags like Bush and Totten. If they hate Arabs and Fags, they can damn well do the killing themselves."

You're confused (among other things). It's the Arabs who hate fags.

Posted by: Gary Rosen at December 16, 2004 11:22 PM

Don't respond to people I've banned. It only takes one second to zot their comments, but then your response is still hanging there out of context. Besides, it only encourages them.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 17, 2004 12:22 AM

Very true. Feel free to zot my 11:44pm comment if you'd like.

Posted by: Eric Anondson at December 17, 2004 12:33 AM

Zotted.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 17, 2004 12:46 AM

In other news, the monkey exhibit at the Columbus Zoo was closed today after the monkeys exhibited strange behavior. Apparently, one monkey named "Coolo" was sitting around holding some feces in his hand, this is typical for monkeys(but somewhat unhealthy and bad for their sex life). A few other loud monkeys saw the feces-fondling primate and started shouting and making lots of noise, they jumped up and down and pointed at Coolo. When this didn't cause Coolo to immediately drop his handful of steaming waste, the other monkeys became more agitated. One excreted into his hand and threw it at Coolo, a number of other monkeys found this quite funny. Seeing that, the other loud monkeys also began filling their palms with poo and launching it at Coolo. Coolo simply sat on his tire swing, holding his favorite feces.

The monkeys became even more upset, no longer content with their own shat, they had their friends shat in their hands and threw it as well.

Zookeepers will have to wash down the entire cage and bathe a number of monkeys. Interestingly, Coolo only had to have his hand wiped with a wetnap, the others were completely covered in monkey waste.

The Zoo is still investigating the cause, they haven't ruled out drugs.

Now back to you regularly scheduled shit-tossing contest.

Posted by: Ratatosk at December 17, 2004 07:51 AM

MJT: Don't respond to people I've banned. It only takes one second to zot their comments, but then your response is still hanging there out of context. Besides, it only encourages them.

Out of curiousity, why even leave the tr0ll comments up at all?

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at December 17, 2004 08:15 AM

dougf: I'm sure that we can spend hours(well at least minutes; OK maybe a minute reviewing the greatness that is both DPU's and my 'true North Strong(snicker)& Free(thanks to the sacrifices of others)'.
What say DPU? At least it's not about Juan(let's hear it for anyone NOT American{or Jewish})Cole.

This ramblingly incoherent public service message about not drinking and posting during the holiday season has been brought to you by dougf.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at December 17, 2004 08:17 AM

Personally, Totten's and Jarvis's jihad against Cole remind me of a couple of chihuahuas yapping at a Doberman.

Posted by: Michael Farris at December 17, 2004 08:51 AM

Important clarification: A Doberman who is totally full of shit.

Posted by: Patterico at December 17, 2004 09:58 AM

Patterico,

You know, if I had to choose between a doberman thats full of shit and yappy ankle-biting dogs... I'd choose a cat.

Posted by: Ratatosk at December 17, 2004 10:19 AM

I hate cats.

Posted by: Patterico at December 17, 2004 10:35 AM

DPU: Out of curiousity, why even leave the tr0ll comments up at all?

It's just my policy. I don't want people to be aware that I ban some posters and then leave them guessing what a bannable offense is.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at December 17, 2004 11:54 AM

Is anyone defending Cole?

Oliver Willis is.

When Oliver Willis defends you, you're beat.

The academic leftoids at Crooked Timber would certainly ride to Cole's defense; Cole is their guru on Iraq. Trouble is, they probably won't find out Cole needs defending. They have a policy of not reading anything that might bother them.

Posted by: dipnut at December 17, 2004 12:07 PM

Michael,

I just wanted to thank you for maintaining one of the best blogs on the net. I don't know how you manage to keep your comments section so diverse and argumentative, while still being interesting an informational, but I'm glad you do.

Thanks, everyone, for the tasty food for thought this comment thread has provided!

Posted by: Peter A. at December 17, 2004 12:32 PM

Personally, Totten's and Jarvis's jihad against Cole remind me of a couple of chihuahuas yapping at a Doberman.

LOL!

I think that in arguments like this, people forget that individuals are not solid blocks of absolute rights or wrongs. Juan Cole is certainly not pond-scum - as a professional historian of the Middle East, at a top university, he has made very significant contributions on his blog. He can be very insightful.

He is not however faultless, and on those occasions that he is wrong, or produces writing that is flawed by insufficient attention to the facts, his readers should (and do) call him out on it. (This, unfortunately for Totten, was most certainly not one such occasion).

An example of Cole going awry is that recent MEMRI lawsuit thing. Cole's explanation of how he arrived at his figure for MEMRI's funding was disconcertingly stupid.

Similar things can be said for Totten, who can write very well. You don't have to look far to find some thoughtful posts, there are not a few on Totten's front page right now. Like many however, he is quite capable of producing trash, as he demonstrated a few days ago (and, prodded perhaps by ego, he continues to do with this post).

Neither of these gentlemen are "pond-scum", or *blank*heads, or anything of the sort. They are smart people who usually write good stuff and occasionally type of rubbish that would embarrass a garbage truck.

Posted by: Aaron at December 17, 2004 03:32 PM

Aaron

At last, some sense in this comment thread.

Posted by: Benjamin at December 17, 2004 05:26 PM

Aaron and Benjamin, what makes a chihuahua and what makes a doberman? If you think it's the collection of letters after the name instead of the strength of the argument, you've mistaken volume for force. Look again.

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