I believe that Zeyad is a Sunni although of the secular variety.I hope he and his family stay safe.
This is going to get ugly(well let's be honest,a trifle more ugly,as it's already grotesque).I believe that a considerable portion of the Sunnis have decided to 'roll the dice',in an attempt to re-animate the corpse of Sunni domination.Whether this decision is the result of Baathist intimidation or just the usual disastrously flawed 'ME'sense of history,the results are the same.
It is now just a question of how many Sunnis have to die before the cause is abandoned.The Sunnis appear to have rejected their fellow Iraqis except as subordinates,and are going to go down snarling.
Frankly,I am not surprised and it really makes things easier,in a way.The gloves can come off and the enemy can be dealt with more 'collectively'and less individually.Sort of a mini civil war with only the Sunnis being on one of the sides.I wish things had been different but I strongly believe that no amount of fore-planning would have served to convince the 'insurgents'to voluntarily give up their status in Iraq.What impresses me is the remarkable sophistication of the largely 'backward'Shia areas and their willingness to VOTE for the changes they see as needed.I hope they will remain 'tolerant'and 'clever',but it's not a certainty.All things considered though,if both we and our opponents are forced to 'roll'the dice and see what comes up,I really like our chances as opposed to theirs.In this game,we are the house.

If it bleeds, we can kill it.

Let them come.

My prayers go out to Zeyad and all our boys fighting the good fight.

"What impresses me is the remarkable sophistication of the largely 'backward'Shia areas and their willingness to VOTE for the changes they see as needed."

I'm with you on that. I remember Hitchens predicting that Iraqi Shia, having seen what horrors Iran was capable of unleashing on them and on their own people, would have zero interest in setting up a theocracy for themselves. I was worried it was wishful thinking on Hitchens' part, but I know by now that he doesn't say things like that unless he's done his homework.

Jeremy:

Civil wars often bring out the worst in people.

Both sides will undoubtedly take many innocent lives in exchange for the temporary "upper hand" or for P.R. reasons.

Can't we be in the middle? Why take sides? On one hand, you have a virtual puppet government without support of the majority, and on the other hand we have random gangs of hooligans armed with AK-47s and bombs strapped to their chests. I don't think I'd feel comfortable having either side to protect me.

Regarding your reference to the KKK, they were "White Supremacists". The Iraqi insurgents would consider themselves a national liberation movement, so they must be compared to other such movements, not American terrorists wearing white linen. In other words, compare them with the American revolutionaries, or even the Viet Cong, but don't lump them in with the Klansmen.

Peace,
JB.

" On one hand, you have a virtual puppet government without support of the majority, and on the other hand we have random gangs of hooligans armed with AK-47s and bombs strapped to their chests"

I see. A government committed to setting up elections is a "puppet government" that isn't worth supporting? Only if you're an enemy of democracy, freedom and all those out of fashion liberal idea... Like everyone in the middle east who started this bullshit habit of calling Alawi "a puppet"

Nice of you to add the word "virtual", though asshole.

"Regarding your reference to the KKK, they were 'White Supremacists'. The Iraqi insurgents would consider themselves a national liberation movement, so they must be compared to other such movements, not American terrorists wearing white linen. In other words, compare them with the American revolutionaries, or even the Viet Cong, but don't lump them in with the Klansmen."

The KKK weren't just "white supremecists," they were religious supremecists as well. You can call the Sunni a national liberation movement, but liberation from what? Iraqi occupation? They are Iraqis. They simply believe that their religious and moral views trump that of the rest of the Iraqi population, and they feel like they have to do something about it because, well, they're right in their own minds. Hmm, sounds like the KKK to me. I don't think the American revolutionaries would have killed a woman for not clothing from head to toe, or killed an Englishman simply because he was English - they were all mostly of English descent in the first place. But I would propose to you that a Sunni terrorist would kill a white man on the spot simply because he wasn't an Arab. Someone should write a book on the parrallels between the KKK and the multi-arab-national terrorist force in Iraq. I wouldn't be surprised if, like the KKK, some of those people within the police force are also in terrorist circles.

"Regarding your reference to the KKK, they were "White Supremacists". The Iraqi insurgents would consider themselves a national liberation movement, so they must be compared to other such movements, not American terrorists wearing white linen."

Thank God that John Kerry lost the election. Too many of his supporters agree with the above sentiments. Such people need to be marginalized.

"Can't we be in the middle? Why take sides?
...
Peace,"
JB.---- JB

Well isn't this special?It is not often that one gets to see the effete pseudo-leftist arguments for do-nothingism laid out so cogently and all in one place as well.
May I paraphrase just in case the message might still be vague:
A.Everything is everything ( and consequently,nothing is really anything,and why disturb our harmony?)It's not as if we or non-violent Iraqis are the 'good-guys'here or anything.My goodness,what a quaint notion.
B.All we are saying is "Give Peace a Chance",and "Can't we all just get along?".
C.Please stop bothering me.Conflict is s-o-o-o-o distasteful,is it not?Hey guys, let's sit in the stands and watch the lesser breeds run amok.So diverting in a crude way,don't you think?I mean it's not as if what they do matters to us and our perfect lives.Really what can they do to us as they tumble down the lunacy slope?
9-11?
Oh that is so Last Week .

Garret Bolthouse "The Iraqi insurgents would consider themselves a national liberation movement, so they must be compared to other such movements...In other words, compare them with the American revolutionaries"

Yeah, the minute men were known for blowing up markets, killing all professionals and intellectuals hoping to drive them out of the country, using women and children as human shields, kidnapping for ransom and destroying the country's infastructure. That group that warned parents that they were going to destroy the local school in Bagdad the other brought Ben Franklin to mind immediately.

Garrett,

remnants of the Nazi SS also tried to "liberate" their country from our GIs after WWII. SS officers — called 'werewolves'— engaged in sabotage and attacked both coalition forces and those locals cooperating with them—much like today's Baathist and Fedayeen remnants. They and other Nazi regime remnants targeted Allied soldiers, and they targeted Germans who cooperated with the Allied forces. Mayors were assassinated including the American-appointed mayor of Aachen, the first major German city to be liberated. Children as young as 10 were used as snipers, radio broadcasts, and leaflets warned Germans not to collaborate with the Allies. They plotted sabotage of factories, power plants, rail lines. They blew up police stations and government buildings, and they destroyed stocks of art and antiques that were stored by the Berlin Museum. Does this sound familiar?

So I don't care what they consider themselves. We will crush them like the vile cockroaches they are.

Your moral equivalency has reduced you to apologizing for fascism. You should be ASHAMED of yourself and your bankrupt ideology.

Garret's rebuttal to Jeremy Brendan saves me a lot of typing. What he said. Plus, if we don't judge Klansmen on the basis of how they characterize themselves then why would we think to honor the self descriptions of hooded iraqi 'milita.' In the Tulsa, OK 'riot' (conflagration, siege...not sure what to call it) the KKK seemed to have thought they were taking a stand against what they would have seen as Black people offending God's will by gaining affluence and influence for the first time in America, thus something (the Klan would have argued) finally had to be done. I choose not to accept their framework for what, by any objective standard, was simply racist terrorism aimed at stripping a certain class of citizens of their rights and freedoms. The Klan might have thought of themselves as liberators also, just like the founding fathers. But that sort of interpretation represents their pathology, not historical fact.

"Can't we be in the middle?"

"...In other words, compare them with the American revolutionaries."

Folks, the bad guys in Iraq are not the US Marines. I'm trying to be polite as I type this and I'm finding it very difficult. There are too many dimensions along which your statements are reprehensible; the opportunities for righteous rage too tempting. Where's DennisThePeasant when we need him?

I take comfort that these "random gangs of hooligans" (they weren't random a few days ago; then they were the city government of Falluja) are going around hooded. That's a sign that some part of them knows to be ashamed of what they're doing, and/or knows in the end their cause is doomed to failure.

Garrett:

Here's a link on post-WWII Nazi "freedom fighters". Educate yourself, and stop nuancing yourself towards complete irrelevancy.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1373/is_10_50/ai_66157021

FRIENDLY-FIRE ALERT !!

Uh David,uh,I think that Garrett is getting a bad rap here.He is exactly with you in despising the thoughts in JB's post.In fact,it is JB with whom we all have issues.
We need all the allies we have as the MSM continues to try to defeat GWB even though he was just re-elected!!!.

Sorry bout that Garrett. Replace your name in my posts with JB's.

There is much comedy of errors potential here. I had to remind myself that "JB" is the other Jeremy, not me. It's all very funny, really.

"There is much comedy of errors potential here. I had to remind myself that "JB" is the other Jeremy, not me. It's all very funny, really."--JB#1

And it is ALL David's fault.Not that I am pointing fingers in a childish,judgemental way,of course.Like the MSM,I am just recording reality with perfect impartiality, or recording the select portion of it I have chosen to highlight.Funny how it that perspective always seems to reflect well on me. Just lucky I guess.

dougf,

I will gladly take the fall, cause it's not about me and I'm a team player, as long as we can keep decimating those silly Libs.

David Thomson: "Thank God that John Kerry lost the election. Too many of his supporters agree with the above sentiments. Such people need to be marginalized."

I agree wholeheartedly with the marginalization of such individuals. It’s long overdue. I pray that it’s not too late.

David, do you even know the date of the Nazi surrender at Reims? After that there were no significant destabilizing activities by Nazi remnants, zero US combat casualties and comparing the situation to present-day Iraq is just plain ridiculous. So go eductate yourself.

Novakant,

no, I suggest YOU educate yourself. I already provided you a starting point in one of my posts above.

here it is again:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1373/is_10_50/ai_66157021

Not so, novakant. Brush up a bit on the post-war insurrection movement in Germany, won't you?

LOL I was a little bit worried for a second there, but no biggie, just to let you all know, I quoted JB first, and then I commented. I am in no way a supporter of these terrorists and their cause.

See, I know you would love to compare the GW2 to WW2 because after all WW2 was the good war, but historically the comparison between post-war Germany and Iraq makes no sense at all - get your facts straight, here's a little help:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768

And I'm sure GW2 is Vietnam in your mind, novakant, because everything is Vietnam to the Left. That's so '60's. In the 1960's, the Left went off the rails, and they have yet to return. I doubt they ever will get over it until those who went through it depart from this mortal coil, so we appear to be doomed to have to hear about how wonderful the 1960's were for at least the next 20-30 years. I'm not sure I can stand it. . . .

"In the 1960's, the Left went off the rails..."

Nope, in the 1930s the Left went to the Other Side, the side that murdered 100 million people in the name of socialism, and they have been on that side ever since as dupes or even agents...

And I'm sure GW2 is Vietnam in your mind, novakant, because everything is Vietnam to the Left.

Well, I can only speak for myself and say that I find such historical comparisons generally rather unhelpful and unscientific, as every parallel is outnumbered by slew of differences.

Apparently the author of that Slate.com article hasn't studied up on his history:

Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946

In the Slate article, Benjamin tries to prove the administration guilty of "sexing up" the German occupation by citing two history books that have almost nothing to say on the subject. That's hardly what you'd call evidence.

Further, he minimizes the significance of what those books report about the Werwolf resistance. Sure, there was guerrilla warfare, but measured by Benjamin's grand scale, "… little materialized." Additionally, he assures us, there was "no major campaign of sabotage … no destruction of water mains or energy plants worth noting" (emphasis added). Benjamin appears fully committed to "sexing down" the situation whenever possible.

What he apparently didn't bother to do is read Perry Biddiscombe's book (cited above) which gives full chapter and verse on Nazi-postwar guerrilla operations. Benjamin is right that the Werwolves were poorly organized, and the threat of attacks subsided after a several months of occupation. But they were very real. Prof. Biddicomb's survey of records by the U.S. Army Center of Military History shows that at least 39 combat deaths occurred in the first few months of the occupation. If the Nazis had been better organized, the Werwolf might well have given World War II GIs as much trouble as the thugs in Iraq are generating now.

If there is a difference, it's a quantitative difference, not qualitative. And Germany's utter destruction accounts for that.

"Yeah, the minute men were known for blowing up markets,"

Well, yes. But they didn't have a lot of explosives, so the approach was more to raid them for supplies.

"killing all professionals and intellectuals hoping to drive them out of the country,"

If you believe that all professionals and intellectuals were Tories, then yes. Otherwise they were considerably more selective. This part doesn't make sense to me for the iraqi terrorists. Why would they want those people to leave? I can see shaking them down for ransom, but getting them to leave the country? What does make sense is israeli hit teams doing that. Israel wins more the longer iraq stays completely disorganised. But there's zero hard evidence for that. Sure, there are israeli hit teams in the country but what we've seen documented about them is making raids into iran.

"using women and children as human shields,"

I don't remember any evidence for that in the american revolution.

"kidnapping for ransom"

Yes, we did that.

"and destroying the country's infastructure."

Kind of. There was a certain amount of burning things down on both sides, and sume bridge destruction etc, but again the lack of explosives made a big difference.

But the americans had a known government. Every colony had a functioning elected government already. They maybe had to run from the british when the british marched on whichever city they were in at the moment, but they were known politicians. Nobody knows who's running the iraqi resistance to the extent that it's getting run. Zarqawi appears to have some influence but it may be that the main reason iraqis have heard of him is the publicity we give him. The major part of his influence may be due to us.

The british had no doubt about Washington's name etc. Things were more open in those days.

"Killing intellectuals and professionals ... this part doesn't make sense to me for the iraqi terrorists."
- J Thomas

You forget that many of the insergents are islamists, and foriegners at that. They want to see the country fail so that there isn't a threat to God's own system...

Yes, destroying the oil infastructure makes no sense to someone who actually cared about his country... But even the Bathists were nilistic thugs, and the Islamists are beyond human reach.

You missed the point I was trying to make in the "blowing up markets," quote too. That was an example of a massacre, an atrosity against civilians. You can't come up with such a parallel because there aren't any.

Oh, by the way, where's your parallel between the American revolution and cutting civilian's heads off?

This part doesn't make sense to me for the iraqi terrorists. Why would they want those people to leave? I can see shaking them down for ransom, but getting them to leave the country? What does make sense is israeli hit teams doing that. Israel wins more the longer iraq stays completely disorganised.

That's just disgusting. You're implying that the Israelis are killing professionals and intellectuals. Classy. Real classy.

But you don't get it. It didn't make sense for the Khmer Rouge to kill them all, but they did. It didn't make sense for Stalin, Mao, or the Nazis to kill their best and brightest or drive them out, but they did. Why? Because facists and dictators don't like people who think.

On the other hand, an organized Iraq is beneficial to Israel. Why? Because an organized Iraq will probably not be attacking Israel. On the other hand, an Iraq run by dictators and/or terrorists would.

Really, put down your anti-semitism or go back to dKos where it is accepted.

FactCheck would like to note that David has not yet read the work he so readily cites to support his false, discredited theories of substantial German WWII resistance. To check this, ask him what the fifth word on the third line of page 193 is.

FactCheck would additionally like to note that there were no combat deaths of US troops in occupied Germany after Reims.

FactCheck is shocked, shocked to find out that a conservative supporter of the war in Iraq would cite a source he had not read. FactCheck is shocked, shocked that a conservative supporter of the war in Iraq would cherry pick his sources to prove something that's not true. Shocked, shocked, we tell you.

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