November 12, 2004

News from the Rift

London's Telegraph reports that the Spanish media are blasting Prime Minster José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero as the anti-American asshat that he is.

The Spanish Socialist prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, yesterday faced a barrage of derision over his government's anti-Americanism following a snub by President George W Bush.

Mr Zapatero was one of the first premiers to send a congratulatory telegram to Mr Bush after his election victory last week.

But, in what was a stinging confirmation of the poor state of relations between Washington and Madrid, he has yet to receive a reply.

Mr Zapatero had also telephoned Mr Bush before the election result was made official but was not put through to the president.

Spain's newspaper columnists, the opposition People's Party and satirists have made much of the silence between Washington and Madrid.

Mr Zapatero wrote himself firmly into the White House's black books by accusing Mr Bush and Tony Blair of lying over the reasons for going to war with Iraq.

In the summer he immediately honoured an election pledge to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq.

He then backed John Kerry in the presidential election and cancelled a standing invitation for US forces to participate in Spain's annual military parade.

Anti-war policies may be popular with the public, but even supportive sections of the media have said that the prime minister's anti-American stance had gone too far.

Most sectors of the Spanish press concluded that the telephone spat was "infantile" but that Mr Zapatero needed to act fast to recover Spain's loss of face abroad.
Zapatero's political opponents in the next election can make a plausible case that he "pushed our allies away."

Posted by Michael J. Totten at November 12, 2004 11:31 AM

Comments

Dispensing with diplomatic niceties, the Administration's message to Zapatero is "boca me culo, pendejo."

Posted by: Zacek at November 12, 2004 11:55 AM

In what alternate universe does the press hammer a lefty gov't for not playing nice with the big bully governed by a cowboy? Do Arthur Sulzberger and Dan Rather have beards there? Oh, it's in Europe? Never mind.

In all seriousness, I have no problem with the Spanish electing this knucklehead. It is their nation, a democracy, and therefore their call.

As it is our call to elect a President who honors our allies (which I will define as those who ACT as allies, rather than those who merely talk as allies) and snubs those whose governments don't wish us well. Not sure anyone here has really "lost face."

Having said that, it is in both Spain's and our interest that relations between our nations be strong. Mr. President, invite the Z-man over for lunch and make him sit down and have a discussion with Nancy Pelosi. The light should dawn pretty quickly.

Posted by: spc67 at November 12, 2004 12:02 PM

There's a good reason why I'm an anglophile. What Europeans, Arabs, and foreigners of all stripes are only beginning to come to grips with is that the Anglo-Saxons who run this country speak very softly and are not given to rhetoric; yet they are deadly serious about their business. They walk softly yet carry a very big stick. Contrast that with the Arab, or the Latin, for instance. All bark no bite. See how Saddam couln't hide his face from them, no matter how much he tried. Look at Castro vainly try to outlast them. He doesn't stand a chance. It took the Anglo-Saxons 50 years to beat the communists, and they would have prevailed even had it taken 100 years. Hugo Chavez beware. Zapatero, this soft Leftist Latin fool has placed his people on the wrong side of history by crossing them.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 12:09 PM

You know, there is a lot of shit over the decision to go to war in Iraq. Bush and Blair, in the end might be right. Of course, in the end history may provbe them wrong. It is hubris of the most vulgar kind, to allow a difference in belief on one subject to lead to snubbing a government that is obviously trying to make some sort of move to reopen relations.

We now know that it's possible that Bush and Blair were wrong about WMDs (they may still be proven right at some point). We have good reason to believe that it was faulty intelligence, but at the time of the statement, there was reason to believ that Bush and Blair lied.

Gah,

Ratatosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 12:22 PM

"We have good reason to believe that it was faulty intelligence, but at the time of the statement, there was reason to believe that Bush and Blair lied."

And those reasons are bullshit.

Posted by: gibs. at November 12, 2004 12:25 PM

gibs,

They seem to be now. But not when the statement by the Spainsih president was made. What he said was obviously to appeal to the anti-war people... but thats how politics work.

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 12:27 PM

We have good reason to believe that it was faulty intelligence, but at the time of the statement, there was reason to believ that Bush and Blair lied.

Bullpuckey. Intel services around the world claimed Saddam had'em. In order to believe they "lied," one had to believe that W and Blair KNEW they would be found out it the end, been politically damaged by it and that they still did NOTHING to plant weapons (what a truly dishonest man would have done) so as to prevent political damage. To me, while I would have preferred finding WMD's, the fact that we didn't proves that W and Blair weren't lying, they were just wrong (I suppose).

In order to believe they "lied," (as opposed to merely being wrong) one had to believe willfully ignore a lot of evidence.

BTW, your tone over the last week or so has become much more pleasant. It makes reading your comments more enjoyable. Thank you.

Posted by: spc67 at November 12, 2004 12:30 PM

It is hubris of the most vulgar kind, to allow a difference in belief on one subject to lead to snubbing a government that is obviously trying to make some sort of move to reopen relations.

I'm not sure that the obligatory congratulatory phone call is an honest "reopening" of relations.

But I may be misreading this paragraph, because Spain under Zapatero is equally guilty of snubbing the US over a difference of belief in the face of the US making a move to reopen relations. I'm referring to the dis-invite of US troops to participate in a Spanish national celebration.

shrug

Posted by: Eric Anondson at November 12, 2004 12:33 PM

I think we all remember that there were a number of statements made about aluminum tubes, yellowcake and other bits, that were, even at the time they were stated, at least highly suspect. Perhaps Bush didn't know that when he made statements about it. But, one could say, especially if he knew, that he was lying about those aspects of this whole justification for war.

If we truly believe in freedom, we must believe in the freedom to disagree. We must accept that our allies may not always agree with us and they may sometimes oppose us on one issue or another. That means that the President should work all the harder with those allies on the other issues where we agree.

This sort of attitude reminds me of the horrid pracitce in my old religion of 'disfellowshipping'. which basicaly goes like this:

God gavew you the freedom to choose, and we support your right to choose. But if you choose to disagree with any piece of what we tell you, then you will be kicked out, and none of us, including your family, will talk to you again.

It's been five years since I've seen my parents. I find such attitudes to be backward and reactionary. I see no difference between my parents(as well as all the people I grew up with) huberis induced snubbing and Bush's snub of the duly elected Spainish president.

Someday, hopefully, in the future every country will be democratic. Every country will have a say about forign policy, and sometimes, its likely that those democracies will disagree with the US policies. Will we support democracy by maintaining good relations even through disagreements, or should we just shun those that don't see things our way on every subject?

I hope it's the former option.

Ratatosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 12:42 PM

"I'm referring to the dis-invite of US troops to participate in a Spanish national celebration."

Ah, so a snub deserves a snub in return? With that attitude, even world demcoracies will war with one another.

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 12:43 PM

Zapatero's political opponents in the next election can make a plausible case that he "pushed our allies away."

Or they can also make the point that he reached out to Mr. Bush who petulantly pushed him away in the same way that he delayed the signing of the Chile-US trade agreement when Chile didn't back the war.

Ese perro no cazará, Michael. Spanish sentiment is still strongly against the war and still furious at the PP for blaming the 3/11 bombings on ETA when they knew otherwise.

It also won't help the PP that when Bush was dissing Zapatero he was meeting with Aznar. The PP will appear like Bush's lapdogs, Bush will still appear to be a bully for ignoring Zapatero's gesture.

Eric Anondson,

The US Ambassador, George Argyros was the only Ambassador to Spain to skip the Spanish National Day celebration.

Be glad when the adults take over.

Posted by: Randy Paul at November 12, 2004 12:55 PM

Randy, which adults would that be, Michael Moore and Dhimmi Carter?

Posted by: Matthew Cromer at November 12, 2004 01:01 PM

Nice attempt to create a strawman. The adults are the ones who don't hold petty grudges and seek to punish those who disagree with them.

Posted by: Randy Paul at November 12, 2004 01:06 PM

The adults are the ones who don't hold petty grudges and seek to punish those who disagree with them.

Have the Libs and Losercrats been acting like adults since 11/? Bush's snub is downright neighborly compared to standard Lib vitriol whenever they get trounced.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 01:12 PM

since 11/3

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 01:12 PM

David,

So our President holding petty grudges, is ok, because the Lefties hold petty grudges.

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 01:19 PM

Tree Rat said: "I see no difference between my parents(as well as all the people I grew up with) huberis induced snubbing and Bush's snub of the duly elected Spainish president."

Sure there is. You can elect different parents. The Spanish (and the USA) can elect different leaders.

And there isn't any reason to beleive that Bush and Blair lied about the WMD's. They may have been wrong, but that's not lying. General Franks, in his book, relates how Muburak of Egypt told him personally that Saddam had both chemical and biological agents and was going to use them if the US attacked. Was Muburak lying then? or was he also mistaken?

Let the Spanish Prime Minister take some heat. He deserves it.

Posted by: Eric Blair at November 12, 2004 01:24 PM

Tosk,

I'm addressing Randy's implication that the Dems are "adults". They're not.

And like I said, Bush's pettiness is downright neighborly in comparison.

Answer the question Randy.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 01:25 PM

Have the Libs and Losercrats been acting like adults since 11/? Bush's snub is downright neighborly compared to standard Lib vitriol whenever they get trounced.

David,

The problem with sweeping generalizations is that it is so easy, so very easy to refute them.

Posted by: Randy Paul at November 12, 2004 01:27 PM

Answer the question Randy.

Geez, don't be so bossy. Didn't your mama tell you to use the word please?

Anyway, it was answered in my previous post.

Posted by: Randy Paul at November 12, 2004 01:29 PM

David,

Comparing childish acts with other childish acts still doesn't make either one right. In fact, I would think it more important for the President of The United States to be an adulot, than some of the wing-nuts in the opposition party.

Eric,

So now we only want to befriend demcocracies that agree with us on everything? Are you saying that, if a duly elected President disagrees with us, then theire citizens should kick them out of office?

This is petty, and it makes us look petty.

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 01:33 PM

Besides, if I got married and my worst enemy sent me a wedding gift, I'd still send him a thank you card. Its called being polite and having good manners.

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 01:34 PM

Besides, if I got married and my worst enemy sent me a wedding gift, I'd still send him a thank you card. Its called being polite and having good manners.

Tosk,

I didn't excuse Bush's pettiness. But I do support his decision to send Zapatero a clear political message, which was the purpose of his snub. "Good manners" had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 01:39 PM

Randy,

Spain seems to think Zapatero is to blame, not Bush. And I'm inclined to agree. Spain was a solid ally until Mr. Z came into the picture.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 12, 2004 01:41 PM

Michael,

I read the English language version of El País regularly and they have not been harsh on Zapatero.

This from the article you cite

Most sectors of the Spanish press concluded that the telephone spat was "infantile" but that Mr Zapatero needed to act fast to recover Spain's loss of face abroad.

doesn't put the blame on Zapatero. Indeed, this

A columnist for the conservative newspaper ABC, stated bluntly: "Zapatero has put his foot in all of our arses".

is the only specific cite criticizing Zapatero and ABC is about as conservative a newspaper as there is in Spain.

By the way, did you know that I couldn't use the most famous search engine starting with G because that word in the URL was defined as objectionable content and I was blocked from commenting?

Posted by: Randy Paul at November 12, 2004 01:53 PM

'We now know that it's possible that Bush and Blair were wrong about WMDs (they may still be proven right at some point). We have good reason to believe that it was faulty intelligence, but at the time of the statement, there was reason to believe that Bush and Blair lied'--Tosk

This is both clueless and offensive per se.Pray tell squirrel(GAH-- that is a remarkably annoying pretense),what 'reasons'were there to believe that Blair & Bush LIED.Not reasons why loons insisted they lied but real objective reasons.

BUSH LIED ---- PEOPLE DIED !!!

Sickening.

Posted by: dougf at November 12, 2004 02:01 PM

BTW,

Yes, I know El País is a fairly liberal paper, but it is also the country's leading paper.

Posted by: Randy Paul at November 12, 2004 02:08 PM

Randy: By the way, did you know that I couldn't use the most famous search engine starting with G because that word in the URL was defined as objectionable content and I was blocked from commenting?

Yes, it's a glitch in the anti-spam software.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 12, 2004 02:08 PM

test

google

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 02:10 PM

According to Tosk’s assessment, America should respond to Zapatero's hubris & tantrums with adult politeness. In other words, our relationship with the Spanish government should be a parent-child relationship.

Infantile leftists in Europe expect us to treat them with a respect that they haven’t earned. They expect us to protect them and never make mistakes. When things go wrong in their lives they want to be able to blame us, to scream, yell and stomp their feet and be forgiven for it. If they call us and we don’t call back right away, they feel abandoned.

We let them get used to this silly arrangement during the cold war, and they got used to it, even though they’re big enough and rich enough to take care of themselves. Time for them to grow up and get a life.

Posted by: mary at November 12, 2004 02:11 PM

You're comments are to boring to read, so I apoligize if you're offended by repetitiveness:

Michael Totten: I believe media is a more accurate gauge of popular opinion than the popular opinion itself. And, if my guy (Bush) wins, he should rub the face of anyone who disagrees with him in it...just like I would have respected John Kerry for doing.

No matter how hard you try Michael, you are not getting that gig at the Corner. You have to have a mommy who is royalty for that.

Posted by: Goldwater at November 12, 2004 02:15 PM

There are times when the appropriate response to pettiness is to be clearheaded and to act like an adult. But then there are times when the best and most appropriate response is a simple "fuck you", as in "Fuck you, Pat.".

Heck, it might even clear the air a bit.

Posted by: too many steves at November 12, 2004 02:18 PM

Spain was not a solid ally of the US before Zapatero got elected. Aznar was a solid ally of the US. It's not the same thing. The Shah of Iran was also a solid ally of the US, Iran obviously was not. Anti-american feeling has been strong in Spain since at least 1898 and it doesn't take a lot to get it riled up. Both the Catholic conservatives and the Left-wing dislike America, it's not that different from the situation in Greece, though not as bad. Bush's snubs will probably help Zapatero at the polls. I read Spanish fluently and looking through the noticias on Yahoo.es I've been unable to find any "derision" other than the predictable comments of ABC. If anyone has some links to derision in El Mundo or El Pais or anywhere else I'd be grateful for the tip. My first impression is that the Telegraph is really reaching here.

Posted by: Vanya at November 12, 2004 02:26 PM

I don't know about petty grudges, but seeking to punish those who thart your policies is pretty damn basic politics. (Much more polite to call it "applying negative reinforcement" even when you mean "delivering positive punishment".)

Spain's government worked to thwart our policies and to replace the head of our government with an opponent. Pardon me, that's just begging for some good-old-fashioned smack-down. (If for no other reason than as an object lesson to the "adults" who would use demogoguery to try to score cheap points by bashing the United States until they, like, need the United States for some reason.)

World politics doesn't work by kindergarten rules. Deal with it.

Posted by: Mark Poling at November 12, 2004 02:27 PM

Vanya's right, but only to the extent that Spain is a divided country, just like ours. Zapatero didn't win in a landslide; and regarding their "noticias", I'm willing to bet the MSM in Spain backs Zapatero just like ours backs the Dems.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 02:31 PM

Anybody else feel like they need a shot (and no, I'm not talking Absolut here) after reading Goldwater's comments?

And how do people feel about "Banned Pools"?

Posted by: Mark Poling at November 12, 2004 02:41 PM

Speaking of Spanish anti-Americanism, check out the film "Barcelona" by Whit Stillman, America's greatest waspy conservative film maker. Definitely not a film for action fans, but Stillman has a very interesting perspective on US-European relations that is more relevant now than in the 1990s, when it was made.

Posted by: Vanya at November 12, 2004 02:42 PM

"Banned Pools"

I'll take Goldwater in "not soon enough."

Posted by: spc67 at November 12, 2004 03:05 PM

don't ban Goldwater. His raging reminds me why Bush's victory was so sweet.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 03:12 PM

I guess this means Zap'o can kiss Gibralter farewell forever, too....the Anglosphere has a REAL long memory about fecklessness.

Posted by: Ted B. at November 12, 2004 04:17 PM

People, it is foolish to call a diplomatic action childish. We are dealing at the level of international statesmanship. The open disdain that so many like Zapatero have shown for the office of the President of the U.S. and by extension to our country is unprecedented among nations with peaceful relations. The U.S. wouldn't treat the leader of a banana republic that way. There needs to be a diplomatic price to be paid for such behavior if we expect such behavior to stop. It is as simple as that. We are not closing our embassy or breaking trade relations. But access to the President of the U.S. is a privilige that needs to be earned through reasonable correct behavior. Bush has never been anything but correct with dignataries from ANY nation. Let Zapatero grovel a little. He used anti-Americanism to get elected. Let him reap a little of what he's sown. We owe more to his opposition than to him.

Posted by: Doug at November 12, 2004 04:48 PM

Tear up the NATO contract. Pull ALL the troops out of Europe. Pull out of the UN (and kick the UN out of the US ).

Then, negotiate bilateral defense agreements with any country willing to pull their weight.

Let's bring some honest to this trans-Atlantic relationship. No more free rides. As Steyn said, like all forms of welfare, defense welfare is harmful to the recipient.

Posted by: Joe Marino at November 12, 2004 05:06 PM

Rata:

I eagerly await your denunciation of Germany and France for their activities in throwing snit fits to snub the US. .becazuse they disagreed with them.]

Posted by: Ryan at November 12, 2004 07:09 PM

I'll pray for this Spanish bastard.

Posted by: political at November 12, 2004 07:36 PM

Everyone, including the Spanish media, are missing the point!

Bush and the administration aren't snubbing anyone. What they're doing is protecting the Spaniards against further attacks. Remember, the Spanish people were clearly stating the Madrid bombings were the fault of Bush, so he's correctly taking action to make sure it doesn't happen again. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Posted by: Van Gale at November 12, 2004 11:02 PM

President Bush is to be complimented for giving the cold shoulder to the current Spanish leader. This is the proper way to handle the matter. It is foolish to warmly embrace someone who just gave you the middle finger. Such a individual deserves to be minimally treated with a certain distance until they earn their way back into your good graces.

The reelection of George W. Bush will help the Old Europeans to face reality.
A John Kerry administration would have encouraged them to persist behaving in an immature manner. The very idea that Kerry might have been elected should scare the hell out of you. The odds are that he would have been a dangerously feckless leader. Andrew Sullivan, Daniel Drezner, Mickey Kaus, and the other Kerry supporters almost brought this nation down to its knees. Don’t ever forget that.

Posted by: David Thomson at November 13, 2004 05:41 AM

The snub is an excellent form of communication. It cannot be misinterpreted.

Posted by: Scott Janssens at November 13, 2004 08:40 AM

And it also goes both ways. What goes around comes round - in both directions.

Posted by: Randy Paul at November 14, 2004 03:23 PM

And it also goes both ways. What goes around comes round - in both directions.

It just did go both ways.

Posted by: David at November 14, 2004 03:43 PM

What is the point of allowing countries to get away with trashing us and breaking their promises, withdrawing support and insulting our leaders? Ever hear of the word "consequences?" Even in diplomacy, actions have to have consequences, or bad behavior will simply continue. If Spain is going to treat us as though we are the enemy, there is no reason we should treat them as though they are good friends. That would be "enabling," to use another term of psychojargon.

Posted by: blogaddict at November 14, 2004 07:42 PM

David,

And it can go back around yet again.

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