November 11, 2004

Holland Snaps

It keeps getting uglier in the Netherlands since the murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh.

Volkskrant reports (see Slate for details in English) that 5 Christian sites and 10 Muslim sites have been attacked in the past week.

More worryingly, the Turkish Press notes:
a recent poll showed that a staggering 40 percent of Dutch people "hope" that the 900,000 Dutch Muslims in a total population of 16 million "no longer feel at home here" after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a suspected Islamic radical.

40 percent of Dutch people have it exactly backwards. I understand their frustration. But they should hope Muslims learn to feel more at home in the Netherlands, not less. Dutch society is perhaps the most liberal on Earth. It’s not surprising that immigrants from a vastly more conservative culture feel alienated there. If Dutch Muslims ever become as liberal as Dutch Christians the country will not be at war with itself. If Dutch Muslims continue to be shunted off to the side they will continue constructing an anti-Dutch (and hence anti-liberal) counterculture.

So here’s some free advice: Isolate, imprison, deport, or kill (if it comes to that) the extremists. Liberalize those who remain. Otherwise, brace for hell.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at November 11, 2004 08:35 PM

oops! just posted an empty one. sorry!

i agree with you michael, although i wonder what "liberalizing those who remain" will entail, how long that will take, and at what cost.

on another note (and which i have seen expressed elsewhere recently), looking at the backlash that is occurring in holland right now really makes me feel proud of the relative scarcity of that kind of thing in the U.S., both immediately after 9/11 and in the 3+ years since.

Posted by: nathan in tokyo at November 11, 2004 09:31 PM

This is really worrying. My brother's lived in Holland for ever (25 years+). Amsterdam is just about my favourite city on the planet. The people are amazing. And if it really kicks off there then there's going to be a bloodbath. The same situation obtains in France, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Spain. If a backlash goes too far then you could well see pogroms.

Posted by: David Gillies at November 11, 2004 10:34 PM

How does a nation liberalize those who do not wish to be liberalized. Indeed, it look like some of those involved in the recent arrests were Dutch-Americans (Born of a Dutch mother and American father), not immigrants. They grew up there and chose Islamofacism in the face of all of the options.

Posted by: Eric Anondson at November 12, 2004 12:31 AM

Eric Anondson,
Thats what's happening in Britain right now the first generation of Muslim immigrants to arrive here in the 60s and 70s have integrated pretty well. They've made lives for themselves here and by and large don't get involved with the fundamentalists. Its their kids that are the ones who are involved in all this crap.

Personally I think the reason for this is that their parents came to this country in an attempt to get away from the fundamentalists.

Posted by: sam at November 12, 2004 02:10 AM

“How does a nation liberalize those who do not wish to be liberalized.”

You fail to comprehend the reality of the situation. The United States places much emphasis on assimilating its immigrants. They are encouraged to become citizens as quickly as possible. We take for granted that the second generation will be totally Americanized. The third may not even be able to speak the language of their forefathers. Sadly, this is not the tradition in most European countries. One is often made to feel like an outsider for decades. If nothing else, little is done to persuade the newcomers to embrace the political and cultural values of the majority. This is especially the case since the advent of political correctness. The crap is finally hitting the fan. It may be too late.

Posted by: David Thomson at November 12, 2004 02:18 AM

"If Dutch Muslims ever become as liberal as Dutch Christians the country will not be at war with itself."

It would be nice. But Mr. Totten, is it not prudent to entertain the idea that, perhaps, Islam and liberal governance (liberal in the tradition of America's history, not liberal in the tradition of the modern Democratic party) may not be compatible? I do not think Mohammed in the Koran mutted "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's".

It is possible that this particular system of religious beliefs is incompatible with a particular system of governance beliefs.

I keep looking towards Turkey. If it falls, then my hopes for the integration of muslim culture into a civilized world will be badly shaken.


Posted by: Gerry at November 12, 2004 04:02 AM

"If Dutch Muslims continue to be shunted off to the side they will continue constructing an anti-Dutch (and hence anti-liberal) counterculture."

I think for things to have gotten this bad, there has to be not just imposed isolation from the Dutch, but also willfull isolation from the Muslim minority as well. In other words, I think there's plenty of blame to go around. Countries where the identity is based on ethnicity do not have the ability to integrate immigrants.

Posted by: lindenen at November 12, 2004 05:37 AM

Michael, I want desparately to agree with you. I'm generally the kind of sunny pro-immigration conservative who'd rather look at the Rio Grande and think "immigrants built this country" than "English is our national language." But in a world where we know the entire west is sprinkled with mosques that seem to be -- with some success -- radicalizing resident muslim populations, I think we have to at least consider a few unthinkables, including: 1) restrictions on religious freedom that are anathma to our traditions and our first amendment; 2) immigration restrictions that are overtly discriminatory. I'm not there yet on either of these ideas. Even writing that we have to think about them makes me sick, but we find ourselves in what is starting to look like a very untenable position. I recognize that closing mosques and/or excluding muslim immigrants who just want to come here for the reasons people always have is unfair to many innocents. But, sleepily ingnoring the fact that terrorists are being recruited and trained in our midst doesn't seem much of an option either. Holland's 40% may not be right, but they're expressing a legitimate frustration -- more legitimate in Europe where the radicalization seems to be far more advanced than it is in the US. Simply put, the law enforcement approach of just targeting those who commit crimes seems somehow frustratingly inadequate when they have whole subcultures supporting them, and ready to replace them. I have no good answers, but I do have questions.

Posted by: Michael at November 12, 2004 05:43 AM

There seems to me to be a degree in which the "liberalism" of the Dutch is hurting, not helping, the process. This is witnessed in France with the ban on religious wear, which, of course, alienates an entire group of people. We see it here, too, with all our discussions of taking crosses off municipal seals and barring students from wearing religious t-shirts. Religiosity and democracy cannot cohabitate if the government either imposes restrictions on religious expression or intervenes to try and mandate religious expression equality. The only way for religiosity and democracy to cohabitate successfully is for government to get out of the way.

Posted by: The Parson at November 12, 2004 05:58 AM

"Liberalize them"??? What the heck does that mean? Is that like: Force or compel them to be liberal? The Dutch, like the rest of the Europe, made a pack with the devil, inviting millions of these horrible people in. Someone on the net wrote recently: "Finally, the Europeans are getting the Semites they deserve." Sadly, I concur with that. I've been to Europe, on business and as a traveler. I speak German and French (to some extent) and thoroughly enjoy being there. But as an outsider, I'm pretty much shielded and ignorant (in terms of direct experience) of the deep anti-Semitism which continues to pervade Europe. The only solutionto the Moslem problem is for the Europeans to compel the Moslems to leave. They will never be integrated. Islam is completely incompatible with Western Civilization. One of the bases of our modern, Western culture is freedom of conscience; which means, freedom to change one's religion. Believing Moslems cannot support that simple freedom, since the penalty for leaving Islam is death (read the Koran if you don't believe me). As long as Moslems live in Europe in any numbers, the Europeans will never be safe and their culture will be threatened. Those 40% of the Dutch see this, up close and very personal.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at November 12, 2004 06:10 AM

Sadly, this is not the tradition in most European countries. One is often made to feel like an outsider for decades.

I’ve never spent much time in Holland, but I do know that in rural Ireland, families who moved to the area less than five generations ago from other counties are called ‘the new people’. In Germany, French and Italians who have lived in the country for generations still consider themselves to be French and Italians. Muslims and continental Europeans just don’t seem to get the concept of assimilation.

The Dutch were willing to ‘tolerate’ Muslims, Arabs and other non-Dutch people, but I doubt that they would have ever considered them to be Dutch.

I wouldn’t mind kicking the Wahhabists out of America, starting with Prince Bandar and working down to the leadership of CAIR. But that’s a minute percentage of the Muslims living in America. I don’t think anyone wants to kick the Arab owner of the local electronics store down the street out. Or Monk? Muslim taxi-cab drivers, entrepreneurs and pizza guys are already a classic part of New York.

Our democracy and our economy depends on immigration. If we can’t figure out which are the extremists and which are not, then we need to learn more about them.

Posted by: mary at November 12, 2004 06:34 AM

The notion that Muslims cannot and will not assimilate is nonsense. Most muslims in the US are adapting very well and for the most part respect US values and the separation of Religion and State. Place the blame on Europe, not the Muslims. There are a number of reasons why in Europe assimilation is not working. Part of the issue is that European "liberality" is very hypocritical. Every European state was founded on a national ethnic principle. Even while governments and media preach tolerance, your average German, Dutch, French, Italian police officer, employer, etc. is far less welcoming to foreigners than your average American. I think part of the reason the European media and elites seem to bend so far over backward to accomodate these immigrants is that they are trying desperately to keep the lid on the xenophobia bubbling below the surface, and ironically these same elites are probably making the xenophobia worse.

Another element that cannot be ignored is the welfare state and the rigid economies in Europe. As many writers have pointed out, it is very hard for young men in Europe to find jobs, and very easy to collect dole money and sit around thinking of reasons to blame others for the fact that your life is meaningless. This creates a pool for fundamentalist terrorism. In the US the educated child of first generation immigrants quickly gets swallowed into the American mainstream, in Europe the educated child of first generation immigrants will often be frustrated because he will not be welcomed as a part of the society he grew up in.

Posted by: Vanya at November 12, 2004 06:53 AM

The country is owned by the Dutch. They settled it, they held the land. (Of course, ironicly, they did this as Vikings, the first group of people to use Terrorism.)

Nonetheless, its their country and I don't believe that any country has a moral obligation to accept non-citizens. If they want a Muslim free country, I say let 'em. I don't agree with it, but I think they are the only ones who can decide how to deal with the Islamo-nihlists in their country.

Hassan I Sabbah, trianed his followers to blend in with the natives of whatever country he sent them to. His assasians would integrate themselves into the society around their target, sometimes working for years as a trusted advisor. However, when Sabbah gave the word, they rose and slaughtered whomever they were charged with killing, almost always sacrificing themselves in the process. Sound familar? The tactics and mentality are the same.

The Dutch, Germans, Indians, British, Russians, Italians, French and everyone else feared the Hashashin. There was no way for a King to know if his best servant, was really an assasian. It seems that the French, Germans and some others have forgotten their history. Maybe the Dutch haven't forgotten?


Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 07:18 AM

Place the blame on Europe, not the Muslims.

In Iran, the punishment for selling your land to a Jew is death. The punishment for converting to Christianity is death. These punishments are based on their traditional form of law.

Many ‘conservative’ Muslims are as disgusted by the mingling of religions as the Nazis are disgusted by the mingling of races. When I was traveling in Malysia, a family of conservative Muslims refused to share a tour with us because they did not want to share a bus with ‘Europeans’.

A mosque about 1 mile away from my house was led by an Imam who preached about ‘conservative’ Islam. He’s currently under arrest for planning the first world trade center bombing and the attacks against tourists in Luxor. Blame should also be placed on the ‘conservative’, or Wahhabist Muslims. Some Muslims left their homelands to escape this oppression, others left to spread it.

Posted by: mary at November 12, 2004 07:21 AM

Michael, you do sometimes get the most intelligent comments on the web. This is a thoughtful, fascinating, respectful, but serious, thread. Congrats to you for attracting these people.

Posted by: Michael at November 12, 2004 07:44 AM

If Dutch Muslims continue to be shunted off to the side they will continue constructing an anti-Dutch (and hence anti-liberal) counterculture.


If I was ever under any illusion that you were joining us conservatives on the Dark Side, those illusions have been shattered. What is it about some people that they've always got to blame whitey? (and I'm not white, so don't call me a racist). Holland is one of the most Liberal countries in the world, but muslims haven't made themselves at home there. Does that make any sense at all? Euro-Libs LOVE their foreigners. Holland goes through great expense to integrate their foreigners. And most immigrants do FINE in Holland. But not the muslims. Why? Oh, it must be Whitey's fault. But do you see the Indonesians there going bonkers? No, you don't. Get a grip you Libs. You've created another monster.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 07:46 AM


Indonesians (at least 90%) are muslims. It's the Arabs who are not assimiliating. But I say again, the Dutch are not trying to assimilate these people. What the Dutch call assimiliation seems to be merely handing them wads of cash in order to allow them to replicate their culture on Dutch soil. That is a recipe for disaster.

Posted by: Vanya at November 12, 2004 07:56 AM

Actually David, I don't think he's 'blaming whitey' at all. He's blaming 'Euorpey'. (Yes, Europey, I couldn't come up with anything better. Shut up.) Euro-libs (as you call them) might say they love their immigrants, but actions speak louder than words, doncha know. If they shunt them off into horrid ghettos (a la France) or actively try to keep them from assimilating/integrating, the of course they'll never become European (Dutch, French, whatever). OTOH hand, if they too the American approach and aggressively tried to assimilate the immigrants, there likely would not be so many problems.

Posted by: Dave Ruddell at November 12, 2004 08:02 AM

mary makes some interesting points.

As an immigrant from India to the US, let me say that it is easier in the US to both, paradoxically, assimilate and remain true to certain aspects of another culture. What I mean is that the idea that the US is a country of immigrants is a very powerful idea. So that to be American, you just need to think of yourself as one. So that I can be Hindu and wear Indian clothes sometimes, but I speak with an American accent and interact in society completely and comfortably. Almost no one has a problem with me because I think of myself as an American first and foremost. Just one that has some 'Indian' habits. In some societies, even if you grow up with the common accent and accept the common mores, that is not enough. You are still the 'other'.

The idea of the US as melting pot, which is different from multiculturalism, has helped the US prgress as the type of immigrant has changed, but not the idea of what it takes to be an American.

Posted by: MD at November 12, 2004 08:04 AM


then it's their strain of islam that is the problem, Wahabism. Or something about the Arab mentality. They're still on a jihad kick or something.

BuGiving them wads of cash isn't enough? What more are the Dutch supposed to do? Why the special treatment for Arabs? I want to get to the bottom of this, and the pc answers just don't cut it anymore.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 08:04 AM

I suspect that prejudice against muslims is widespread in Europe. We don't see it much because the elites run the place and suppress free speech and democratic development in order to keep the lid on. My worst case scenario for Europe over the last several years has been that they fall into some form of modern fascism; they have most of the socialism and anti-American parts already, all that needs adding to the mix is nationalism.

Whatever, Europe is in for some hot decades. They have been fanning the flames of Islamic Fundamentalism in their media, thinking that it would consume the U.S., but it will burn hotter there than here.

Posted by: chuck at November 12, 2004 08:10 AM

Lindenen has it right: "Countries where the identity is based on ethnicity do not have the ability to integrate immigrants."

It's difficult enough for countries which have a national myth and ethos that allows for the assimilation of different ethnic groups into the homeland. America is the classic, but not sole, example and although the left loves to linger over our failures, the extent of our success is, on a world scale, amazing. And never easy. We take it for granted somehow that people of differing races and ethnicities ought be able to live together well. It is not natural; it is a hard-won acheivement.

But most countries in the world are ethnic. And although lefties think of ethnicity as some kind of temporary inconvenience that will be overcome when the rule of rationalism arrives, there is little evidence that this is true. That truth ought to be respected.

And Europe is ethnic. God, is it ethnic. It was utterly foolish (and also arrogant and guilt-driven) to think that European countries could deal with masses of non-Europeans as permanent residents. It also did little service to the immigrants. In this respect, the Japanese have been very wise.

The demographic time bomb composed of expanding Islamic subcultures and liberal Euros with plummetting birth rates is one of the strangest examples of the unintended outcome I can think of.

The European mess has only intensified my opposition to "multiculturalism" here in the US. Of course we will always carry some trace of our countries of origin and our ethnicities, but without a common attachment to the Constitution and a shared English language, we are in for big trouble one day.

On the question of Muslims in America: I am gay and so having yet another group of God-authorized homophobes has not one shred of good news in it for me.

Posted by: EssEm at November 12, 2004 08:16 AM

I think that the Dutch, perhaps, were unprepared for the Islamo-nihilist. In a society which is very much "live and let live", an influx of theocratic evangelists, who will convert with the Koran or Ak-47 equally, was probably outside their scope of comprehension.

Like most of the western world, I think that they were unprepared for this sort of immigrant. Indeed, the question now is, "Are we too late?"

Think about this, if Osama is following the ideology of Hassan I Sabbah (which in a number of aspects we find striking similarities), then the Islamic that you need to worry about isn't the loud mouthed guy at the mosque, but the quiet nice guy in the cubicle next to you.

Can we weed out the Islamic Theocrats without displacing the entire ethnic population? Perhaps the Dutch are recalling lessons they learned from a few centuries ago.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 12, 2004 08:24 AM

So here’s some free advice: Isolate, imprison, deport, or kill (if it comes to that) the extremists. Liberalize those who remain. Otherwise, brace for hell.---MJT

This situation was inevitable.While it is convenient to blame the Dutch for their 'insular'approach to integration of the muslim immigrants,I just don't buy it.
Why is it that somehow it is always 'something'either done or not done by others that establishes Islamic fanaticism?It was the imperialists;it was the capitalists;it was the US;it was the Dutch.
Maybe it's a direct function of Islamic mainstream thought.Maybe the reformation is solely a requirement of the people most directly responsible for the madness.I am really tired of the 'root cause'syndrome.I don't care about the root causes(insert your favourite meme here).It is a Muslim problem and it must be solved by Muslims or others will solve it in the time honoured manner.
Do we establish camps to 'liberalise'the unwilling?Do we settle for outward appearances of 'good' citizenship while the disease spreads out of sight?
When the Muslim 'silent majority',stand up and denounce the fanatics by name to the authorites,we will be able to make progress and not a moment before.
Not holding my breath.

Posted by: dougf at November 12, 2004 08:29 AM

Good comments from MD on the power of ideas. Many parts of Holland have simply become safe havens for terrorists. The Dutch have more to lose than their liberalism. I agree with dougf.

Posted by: d-rod at November 12, 2004 08:40 AM


You ask why giving them cash is not enough? Giving them cash is the problem. The Dutch are doing too little to encourage their immigrants to join Dutch society, and then to assuage their own guilt they throw money at the immigrants which allows the immigrants to stew in resentment and humiliation.

The key difference between Europe and America may be that Europe is offering immigrants "tolerance", i.e. we'll let you do whatever is it you are doing now. America doesn't really offer tolerance, it offers "opportunity" - we'll let you become whatever you want. Maybe that encourages a better sort of immigrant - people who are more focused on improving their own lives rather than peopole who are looking for a way to preserve an already archaic life style.

Posted by: Vanya at November 12, 2004 08:41 AM

At first glance this would appear to be the match of the century--- Liberalism vs islamic radicalism.

But Liberalism doesn't stand a chance. They're going to get their clocks cleaned, and they'll become conservatives in the process. It's called getting mugged by reality. It's called growing up.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 09:56 AM

We in poor Slovakia don't have so many Muslims yet; prolly more Chinese (cheap goods, yechhh).

Nation in America is the same as "state", or government. "Nation-state". In fact, like the Kurds, "nation" is more like a tribe, an identity. There actually is no American nationality -- merely citizenship. Unlike Hungarian nationals, or Roma (Gypsy) nationals, or the tiny few Jewish nationals, who may also have Slovak citizenship, but are not part of the Slovak nation.

Free up the labor markets, support local jobs, copy the more dynamic job markets of America -- this is good for Europe, but not enough.

Accept, but discourage, hate speech, yet be VERY VERY tough on small physical assaults -- graffiti, pushing, wife & child beating. It has been the habit of appeasement that has totally failed.

Push democracy on Saudi Arabia. The MONEY, the OIL MONEY, is totally corrupting the Saudis, and their official, intolerant, anti-UN Human Rights regime of state Islam. Iran & Syria may be bigger military threats, and need regime first, but Islamofascism won't end as long as Saudi Arabia is not a democracy allowing freedom of religion.

Increase gas taxes (lower deficit, make alternatives relatively more attractive). Nobody wants to pay more, but it's needed. (Increasing fuel efficiency requirements costs even more, for less overal benefit.)

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at November 12, 2004 10:45 AM

ps. that's why Liberals are having such a hard time accepting that radical islam is a real threat. They know that facing up to it means the end of Liberalism. And they love Liberalism far more than they care about their country. Internationalists first, patriots a distant second.

Posted by: David at November 12, 2004 11:31 AM

"You fail to comprehend the reality of the situation."

No, Mr. Thomson, you failed to comprehend my post. Go read the tea leaves elsewhere.

Posted by: Eric Anondson at November 12, 2004 11:37 AM

No, they should not feel at home. They invited themselves, now its time for them to leave. Repatriation is the solution, not some pipe-dream about aculturation.

Posted by: Mitchell Young at November 12, 2004 01:09 PM

It occurs to me that the reaction of the government seems to have a lot to do with the reaction of the people. In short, the government seemed to give no legitimate outlet for the people's frustration.

Immediately after 9/11 there was a crackdown combined with apocalyptically revengful rhetoric. This seemed to immediatyely calm people down..."oh good, someone is doing something". Holland seemed to react immediately by tearing down "Thou Shalt Not Kill" signs as hate crimes.

I'm a snobby intellectual with a disdain for activism of any type. I don't believe in a God or my country. And I'd have looked for muslims to kill too if my government had acted so poorly.

People have been giving the Dutch problems for their reactions because statistically they reacted worse than Americans have. I never thought I'd say this, but they were well and truly provoked. First by Mohammedans, then by their own governments. Context is everything.

Posted by: James Versluys at November 12, 2004 02:48 PM

The key to these issues is that, as many Americans who've not lived in Europe don't realize, Europe is still essentially tribal. The nation-states are mostly drawn along ethnic boundaries and the people see themselves in an ethnic/tribal way that is not a part of American thinking. For example, I doubt that by this point in history anywhere near a majority of white Americans can trace their ancestry to a single European ethnic group (me, I'm part German, Irish, Dutch, Scottish, and English!), whereas in Europe you will have far far far more people who can say "all my ancestors back as far as I know have been German/French/Polish/whatever". As such, while the indigenous people might admit to non-whites (or people from other parts of Europe, for that matter) their status as citizens, many would say that they can never be part of 'the tribe'. Britain, where I lived for many years, is somewhat exceptional in that, since it is not one country but four, there is this side identity category of 'British' that ethnic minorities can claim a part of (ie British-Indian or Black-British) when few of them would claim to be Carribbean-English or Indian-English. In the continental states the matter is simpler, you may speak the language, you may dress the same way as the locals, you may have been born there, but to many (the majority?) of the locals, you are fundamentally an outsider. You are always going to be a Turk, or an Arab, or a n African, and that is that.

Also, there are a lot of assumptions made about European attitudes that are based on incomplete information and inferences. If you speak to the average man on the street, the bigotry towards neighbors is still quite strong (Americans may joke about Canadians, but it is nothing compared to the visceral reaction you'll get if you ask many Englishmen their opinion about the French). If they still hold attitudes like this about people they've been dealing with for thousands of years, is it a shock that many people have still not accepted people from radically different cultures who have only been there for a couple decades? Much of the officially socially liberal ideology of Europe is papering over the cracks of much older, much more deeply held views of who you are; something that American conservatives don't seem to consider. These older ways may now be reasserting themselves.

Posted by: Pearsall Helms at November 12, 2004 03:11 PM
Holland is one of the most Liberal countries in the world, but muslims haven't made themselves at home there.
vaara over at Zacht Ei begs to disagree; s/he seems to think that the Turks are fine, but the Moroccans are trouble.

Tom Grey:  I'm with you 100% on the gas tax.  There is a couple of billion dollars of engineering sitting on the shelf in Detroit because fuel is still relatively cheap and demand isn't there as a consequence.  The other part of the problem is that Detroit can't be allowed to go under, but it "can't" make a profit on efficient vehicles either (but Japan, Korea and Europe can?).  If we had to shove the UAW out of the way to fix this problem, the political repercussions might dwarf those of the tax increase.

Posted by: Engineer-Poet at November 12, 2004 04:14 PM

"Many ‘conservative’ Muslims are as disgusted by the mingling of religions as the Nazis are disgusted by the mingling of races."

Mary, are you sure you interpreted that correctly? Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that conservative Muslims are just as disgusted by the existance of non-Muslims as the Nazis are disgusted by the existance of Jews.

Joshua Scholar

Posted by: Joshua Scholar at November 12, 2004 05:54 PM

“"You fail to comprehend the reality of the situation."

No, Mr. Thomson, you failed to comprehend my post. Go read the tea leaves elsewhere.”

I’m sorry but you failed to address how the Old Europeans treat the immigrants as second class human beings. Such a state of affairs inevitably encourages some of them to convert to Islamic extremism.

Great Britain’s problems, on the other hand, are serious because the left wing cultural and political institutions discourage any attempts to assimilate the newly arrived immigrants. The relativistic mindset of multiculturalism dominates the landscape.

Posted by: David Thomson at November 13, 2004 05:23 AM

Robert Spencer at Jihadwatch quotes an article about a mutant-teenage jihadist:

A farewell letter written to his mother indicates that he was prepared to die as a martyr for Jihad. The teenager — who is the son of a US man and a Dutch woman — is believed to have converted to radical Islam five years ago.

And then adds:

How does one convert to "radical Islam"? No doubt this young man intended merely to convert to Islam, and he was convinced by radical teachers that the radical version of the faith was its true expression. And what do moderate Muslims say about this? Nothing at all — except some take the time to heap abuse upon the non-Muslims who dare to point it out.

Just something else to keep in mind.

Posted by: d-rod at November 13, 2004 08:40 AM

"I’m sorry but you failed to address how the Old Europeans treat the immigrants as second class human beings."

And why must I have? Everything you just posted was a waste of breath. I never disagreed with what you posted even before you posted it. My post was a rhetorical statement, and you started reading entrails to project some alternate reality into what I "should" have actually said. Thank you, but I'll say what I want to, how I want.

I fully comprehend the reality of the situation. Go waste your brain cells on someone who actually disagrees with you.

:) (obligatory smiley)

Posted by: Eric Anondson at November 13, 2004 09:09 AM

Multiculturalism is a load of crap – it should be multi-ethnic, mono-cultural. We (the West) not only consider any pressure on minority cultures to conform as racist but have taken the extra step in encouraging minorities not to.

"Celebrate" diversity blah, blah, blah. Diversity is a challenge that should be faced honestly, not celebrated.

Posted by: Joe Marino at November 13, 2004 08:46 PM

This probably theory only, not a discussion of what is practical now

Do I understand that the dropping birthrate necessitated "guest workers" to get the [European] societies' work done? Much as parts of the US hire Mexicans.

In retrospect, would it not have been better to live with the shortage, let wages rise until nationals, or homogenous visitors, were attracted to the work?

In addition, wouldn't shortages and needs have generated technological innovation that made the work easier, more efficient, etc.?

I suppose I'm suggesting, in distant retrospect, that maintaining some integrity in the boundaries of the labor supply, will result in the market making the necessary accommodation. Certainly importing resentful people from philosophically alien cultures is turning out to have an incendiary result.

I invite economically more-sophisticated commentors who can set me straight as to the shortcomings of this vision, to do so. I do think the emergent market and interplay of forces, without major interference, will generate homeostasis. Here, the danger is that naive multiculturalism will interfere with the Dutch and others taking the necessary measures to restore their country and to redirect the pendulum. And to deal with the extra quantum of rage and criticism.

Posted by: bc at November 15, 2004 06:59 AM

Sorry, that last bit should be clarified: "And to deal with the extra quantum of rage and criticism with which those measures may be met."

Posted by: bc at November 15, 2004 07:01 AM

We see vigilantes when citizens don't trust the authorities to take care of business.
It would be reasonable, upon seeing an outbreak of vigilantism, to presume the citizens don't trust the authorities.
The question is whether this is the issue in Holland, or if it's some kind of racism combined with outrage and a presumed excuse.
There have been reports that Dutch-Moroccans are grossly over represented in the criminal justice system, which means there are numerous vics whose experience has been with Moroccan criminals. There is a level of violence which does not necessarily reach the cop level--shoving on the subway, for example--also reported.
To the extent that pc and hate speech regs keep even a discusion from starting, the anger builds, and if the authorities are not doing something, we will have what we see in Holland.
When a group gets the Accredited Victim designation, their freedom to trespass on the rights and property and life of non-Accredited Victims is emphasized.
We see in this country movement to make sure there is a quota in arrests. No more than x percent of the arrests can be from one or another Accredited Victim group. Whether this hinders police work is not, apparently, a concern.
To the extent this happens in Europe, and to the extent that speech is formally or informally restricted (Pym Fortuyn was called a racist for suggesting Muslims not treat women and homosexuals so badly--and then he was killed), the safety valve is stuck shut. I don't need to extend the analogy.

Posted by: Richard Aubrey at November 15, 2004 10:50 AM

Richard Aubrey, do you have some sort of source about this 'movement to have arreasts be proportional to overall ethnic proportions'? It sounds beyond insane.

Posted by: Pearsall Helms at November 15, 2004 11:02 AM

Heather MacDonald has written on the subject. Also a cop writing under an assumed name (Jack Dunphy) available at National Review Online discusses the issue in some of his back essays.
New Jersey has gone back and forth on whether state troopers do arrest more blacks for speeding and if so, what to do about it (stop it, because the underlying presumption is that the incidence of speeding does not vary from one group to another). There was a survey designed to figure out if a person could tell the race of somebody driving another car. It appears to be extremely difficult, so the feds deep-sixed it.
A less energetic but similar effort surfaced in Michigan but I don't know what happened to it.
See the ACLU from time to time.
Rudy Giulani's get-the-little-stuff approach to cleaning up New York was hammered for getting a disproportionate number of blacks. That the reduction in murder saved mostly black lives was not of interest to those complaining.

But, to answer your question, I am not web literate and have no idea of how to get links.

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I'm Dutch and things got out of hand here. I think Holland and France will be the first to countries to have some sort of riots between white and muslim immigrants.

I state clearly and honest, it was not and has never been the native people to provoke the immigrants. Muslims have high unemploymentrates, high crimerates, and (dreadfully) high birthrates. Partners come from abroad, women stay at home (forced), daughters do not mingle with native Dutch and the praise of the inferior Islam/ Arabculture is throughout the nation.

Not to the amuse of us, the native Dutch. Our country is being sold the worst possible crowd. To me, the murder of Van Gogh was just an example of Islamofascism.

The governments in Western Europe created this explosive, ethnic mess. 40% of Dutch citizens hopes the muslim community to remigrate back. This number will go up, believe me if things do not change.

To think that only two years ago, my life was saved by an Iranian muslim in my own town (also threatened by immigrants anyway) This sheer fact gives me joy, a wonder - sign of God. I always redeem my heart with this. The good will always outnumber the bad in numbers and deeds.

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