Michael J. Totten: The Liberal Case for Bush, Again

They cheer wildly because they know George Bush, the fascist chimp hitler, has done more for freedom and democracy than all the empty words coming from his opponents.

Posted by: David at November 4, 2004 06:11 PM

The youth in Iran also didn't buy "Farenheit 9/11." But they marveled that, in America, you can not only say what you want about your government without fear, but also get rich doing it. It was received entirely differently than intended. Of course, they know the difference between freedom and oppression.

Posted by: rosyp at November 4, 2004 06:23 PM

I think I need to make a macro for this list. I've posted it in every single "Bush the liberal" thread and as far as I know I've got exactly no response from you.

Abu Ghraib. Extraordinary rendition. Maher Arar. Mamdouh Habib. Waterboarding. Selective withholding of painkillers and medical care. Abuses at the Brooklyn MDC. More Muslim immigrants deported than Eastern Europeans deported during the Palmer Raids--and none on terrorism charges, because we don't deport then; all on immigration charges like filing your change of address form too late. People disappeared on secret evidence. Ghost detainees. Manadel al Jamadi. Oregon national guard ordered to return tortured Iraqi prisoners to their capture. Allawi's bans on media that criticize him. At least 20,000 civilian casualties, and many more to come. Torture memos.

Obsessive government secrecy. Subpoena of library records. Loyalty oaths at campaign rallies. Fewest press conferences ever.

You are "objectively pro" all of that. And someone who bought into the "objectively pro-Saddam" stuff really ought to be able to admit it. Now, I think the "objectively pro-" arguments are silly, as long as someone does their best to fix the more repellent consequences of their actions, or at least seems sincerely regretful. But you just deny all these things. You've barely lifted a finger or raised your voice against them.

Posted by: Katherine at November 5, 2004 01:28 AM

Katherine: I've posted it in every single "Bush the liberal" thread and as far as I know I've got exactly no response from you.

What about Abu Ghraib do you want me to say that I haven't already said? Type those words into my search box and read the archives.

Loyalty oaths? Idiotic. And I said so right here.

You emailed and asked me to write about torture. And I did because you were right.

What about Saddam's mass graves in Iraq? What do you have to say about Bush putting a stop to all that? Nothing that I've ever read. Comparing Abu Ghraib to Baath Party genocide is like comparing a leaky faucet to a fucking tornado.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 5, 2004 01:40 AM

David: They cheer wildly because they know George Bush, the fascist chimp hitler, has done more for freedom and democracy than all the empty words coming from his opponents.

rosyP: The youth in Iran also didn't buy "Farenheit 9/11." But they marveled that, in America, you can not only say what you want about your government without fear, but also get rich doing it. It was received entirely differently than intended. Of course, they know the difference between freedom and oppression.

Who are you people, that you know so well the minds of the Iranians? Do you live there? Are you Iranian pollsters? Or are you mass-mindreading?

The Mullahs, too, seem happy with the election outcome. What a popular guy Bush is over there.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at November 5, 2004 09:00 AM

MJT said: "Comparing Abu Ghraib to Baath Party genocide is like comparing a leaky faucet to a fucking tornado."

I don't think you could have said it better.

Posted by: Eric Blair at November 5, 2004 10:10 AM

Just out of curiosity, who compared Abu Ghraib to Baath Party genocide?

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at November 5, 2004 10:27 AM

Just out of curiosity, who compared Abu Ghraib to Baath Party genocide?

"On March 19, 2004, President Bush asked, 'Who would prefer that Saddam's torture chambers still be open?' "Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management: U.S. management."

--Senator Ted Kennedy

you asked

Posted by: David at November 5, 2004 10:36 AM

David, that isn't a comparison. And even if it was, I don't understand why Michael is referencing it in his comment.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at November 5, 2004 10:38 AM

double,

if that isn't a comparison, then strike the word from the dictionary.

Posted by: David at November 5, 2004 10:43 AM

A comparison would be "Abu Ghraib is as bad as Baath genocide." Or "Baath genocide pales in comparison to the Abu Ghraib abuses." Or even "The horrors of Baath genocide are diminished by the Abu Ghraib scandal."

Is English your first language?

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at November 5, 2004 10:52 AM

double,

there's a difference between having the last word and having anything to say. You still haven't figured that out.

Posted by: David at November 5, 2004 11:08 AM

I'm still trying to figure out what Michael's reference to the comparison between A.G. and Baathist genocide was all about. While your entertaining banter is always enjoyable, you haven't cleared that issue up, despite your contention that it's me who has nothing to say.

Posted by: double-plus-ungood at November 5, 2004 11:13 AM

double-plus-ungood, even the AP had to admit that they had a hard time finding anyone who bought F-911 when they interviewed people after a showing in Iran.

Posted by: rosyp at November 5, 2004 12:29 PM

Comparison, def. "An evaluation of two or more things in relation to each other."

The statement "Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management: U.S. management," in no way compares Genocide, which is not mentioned, to anything else.

Posted by: Factcheck at November 5, 2004 01:28 PM

Factcheck,

that's not even your real email.

Posted by: David at November 5, 2004 01:37 PM

double, Factcheck,

I know when to admit I'm wrong. And in this case I am wrong. It wasn't a 'comparison'; Kennedy is essentially saying Abu Ghraib before and after Saddam are the same thing, only under a different management. That's not a 'comparison.'

Posted by: David at November 5, 2004 04:17 PM

How is Bush going to help Iranians? By invading Iran? I doubt even that war would get as much support(in the US) as the Iraq war did. Can we really handle another terrorism war?

Posted by: Jessica at November 5, 2004 07:22 PM

DPU: I'm still trying to figure out what Michael's reference to the comparison between A.G. and Baathist genocide was all about

Katherine goes on and on about Abu Ghraib and has nothing to say about the genocide that preceded it. That's the problem. She didn't mention it. I have to do it for her.

I'll take Abu Ghraib over industrial shredders, rape rooms, and mass graves any day.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 5, 2004 08:23 PM

Michael, if you ever were really a liberal, you sure as hell aren't anymore. I wouldn't take Abu Ghraib over any of those things, nor would I take any of those things over Abu Ghraib. You're twisting and contorting to try to put the best possible face on something you yourself have admitted was an outrage. How about 100,000 Iraqis killed since the invasion? Where the hell does that rank on your outrage meter? First we were told that we had to invade because Saddam was an imminent threat to us. We were told bullshit stories about close ties to Al-Qaeda. We were told we'd be greeted as liberators by grateful Iraqis bearing flowers and candy. Nothing we were told contained even a shred of logic, and not surprisingly turned out to be dead wrong. The truth is Saddam, as despicable an animal as he is, never did shit to us. You want to fight a real "war on terror"? You want to spread democracy throughout the Middle East? Then why not Saudi Arabia? We know they have strong ties to terrorism. We know the Saudis are vicious thugs. But since before the smoke cleared from 9/11, it's been Iraq, Iraq, Iraq ! WHY?????

Posted by: flipster at November 6, 2004 12:44 PM

How about 100,000 Iraqis killed since the invasion? Where the hell does that rank on your outrage meter?

not very high on my outrage meter, considering you pulled that number right out of your ass.

Posted by: David at November 6, 2004 12:56 PM

not very high on my outrage meter, considering you pulled that number right out of your ass.

Not out of his ass - rather, from a highly controversial (some would say, "bogus and discredited") Lancet article. (Link)

Posted by: David Fleck at November 6, 2004 04:25 PM

Mr. Fleck links to a series at the web log "Chicago Boyz," which he purports discredits and debunks a study published in the Lancet.

It, of course, does not.

The debunking is riddled with errors of fact, understanding, comprehension and methodolgy.

The amature debunking was itself debunked by both Tim Lambert (link) and Daniel Davies (link).

Posted by: FactCheck at November 8, 2004 06:32 AM

The Economist, not exactly a left-wing rag, has an article about the Lancet study(subscribers only). As they say:"If only half that figure(100,000) is the true one, it is shocking." Then they go on to say:"Even the lower figures cited by other monitors are disquieting. An anti-war but fastidious website called http://iraqbodycount.net puts the latest toll for civilians at more than 14,000 - at the lower end of its range-......Reports such as the Lancet's should be taken seriously - and bolster the case for selectivity and restraint, even against the bloodiest of foes."

Posted by: miriam at November 8, 2004 02:39 PM

'Mr. Fleck links to a series at the web log "Chicago Boyz," which he purports discredits and debunks...'

Actually, the only thing I purported was that the study was controversial, and some people thought it badly done. E.g.:

Beth Osborne Daponte, senior research scholar at Yale University's Institution for Social and Policy Studies, put the point diplomatically after reading the Lancet article this morning and discussing it with me in a phone conversation: "It attests to the difficulty of doing this sort of survey work during a war. … No one can come up with any credible estimates yet, at least not through the sorts of methods used here."

(From Slate).

My personal take on the study is that the small sample size makes interpretation very difficult. Obviously the death rate has increased, - how could it not? - but because of that huge confidence interval range, this study doesn't tell us much more than that. Hopefully, additional studies will help to build a better estimate.

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