Bush also made major gains among minorities. In western states as a whole, he won 18% of the Black vote, double what he got in 2000, and in Ohio he got 16%.

The President also made somewhat less impressive but more important numerical gains among Latinos, esp. in the South where he got 64%, up 26 pts from 2000.

This is a president with broad-based popular appeal, including the over-$50,000 income group and the college-educated group.

And the backpedaling begins. "No, no, I had nothing to do with the bigot vote. Nothing at all."

This is a president with broad-based popular appeal, including the over-$50,000 income group and the college-educated group.

Best of luck trying to get these diversity statistics across. I promise you you will be hard pressed to hear anything beyond "people who voted for Bush are either multimillionaires or dumb white trash -- because all of us smart educated people voted for Kerry - or maybe Nader."

And the backpedaling begins. "No, no, I had nothing to do with the bigot vote. Nothing at all."

Oliver, on your site, you posted a photo of bigoted rabid gay basher, Reverend Fred Phelps Sr. holding up a ‘no special laws for fags’ sign. Your headline was America Has Spoken

In fact, the Reverend Phelps is a flag-burning, anti-American fringe lunatic who despises Bush, and who doesn’t represent ‘America’ in any way, shape or form. Your use of that photo was a piece of obvious, misleading propaganda that was intended to spread the myth that only bigots vote for Bush.

You continue to spread that propaganda here. Is this some bizarre form of denial or is it just an extension of pre-election smear tactics? I guess old habits are hard to break.

Every ‘Democrat for Bush’ that I know changed their minds after 9/11. Their decision was mostly based on the fact that they didn’t trust the Democrats to put American interests first, as Michael said. This fact is reflected in some polls.

Although most Democrats, myself included, believed the old "beware the evangelical boogymen!" routine after Reagan was elected, I don’t think it will work this time. Scare tactics don't inspire trust.

Michael you may have a point in terms of the dramatic increase in Bush's popular vote, but it is still a fact that the popular vote doesn't get you elected. Bush probably did increase his share of the vote in NJ,NY & CT because of the War vote, but where is the evidence that the War carried him in Florida and Ohio? Everyone, on the left and the right, seems to be peddling the line that values carried the day in both states.

Now your argument might be valid when talking about a realignment for 2008. But, what if Bush succeeds? There is a very good chance we will not see another major Al Qaeda attack on US Soil by 2008. As a recent Rand presentation pointed out Al Qaeda feels pressure to "top" 9/11, which means they need time to regroup and organize. A simple hijacking or railway bomb is probably not in the cards unless they get really desperate, and we really lose focus. If either a)Bush succeeds in crippling Al Qaeda or b) Al Qaeda simply bides its time to develop something really awful, Americans are not going to be talking about terrorism as the number one issue. There is a good likelihood neither the Democrats or the Republicans are going to be focusing on domestic terror in 2008. There is a very good chance the focus will be on deficits and sluggish economic growth.

I'd wager it's a purposeful distortion from both sides to bolster their own particular views. I suspect the majority of state marrige act supporter merely were trying to prevent some other state's appointed courts from affecting legislation within their own state. Had it been on the ballot here in CO, I might have supported such an amendment (depending upon the scope of course). That being said, I'd like to see goverments get out of the marrige business all together.

Another minor issue - Michael, you are right that Kerry says he opposes gay marriage. But if you read your own comments sections you'll see there appear to be quite a few anti-Kerry people out there who think he does support gay marriage "off the record". (And I think most liberals actually feel the same way). To say that there couldn't have been an anti-gay vote because Kerry is officially against gay marriage seems naive.

Oliver: And the backpedaling begins. "No, no, I had nothing to do with the bigot vote. Nothing at all."

Get stuffed.

Personally, I would never vote for a traitor like Kerry. Not only because he was a traitor but Libs have no message. All they do is use special interest groups like gays, minorities for their power while never doing anything for these groups. Funny nobody ever mentioned the fact that there was not a single minority group in his upper campaign team. Oh, but he is for diversity because he said he was. Actions are bigger than words. As far as him being against gay marriage he never voiced a strong position anything like that in Mass. Only 11 states voted on the anti-gay amendment and all of them except Oregon voted for Bush last time.

Dems only oppose not propose that's why they lose.
7% of the Bush base went for Kerry, 11% of the Kerry base went for Bush this margin probably cost Kerry more votes than anything.

Quit whining!!!

Contrary to some of the sneers I've read the last few days, there are gays in the red states too. Not as many as in LA or NYC, but they're here and accepted.

Lots of republicans are pretty relaxed on the whole gay marriage thing too. I'm Pentecostal (same as Ashcroft), and both my parents and myself are generally in favor of it.

However, the thing that got us riled up was the Massachusetts SC decision, followed immediately by the goings-on in San Francisco. It's one thing to support gay marriage, it's quite another thing to support the court imposition of gay marriage with no debate or thought as to the implications. And especially when that court is in another state.

If Andrew Sullivan is right and gays are serious about strengthening the institution of marriage, then perhaps they should get together with the social conservatives and work out a compromise, maybe a "defense of marriage II" act that includes both gay marriage and tougher hurdles for divorce.

Just a thought.

sigh. Should be "parents and I". should have made one last proofreading pass after I cut-and-pasted that sentence together.

Sure Oliver. 58 million people - all white, all straight, all evangelical, cave dwelling, bible thumping, gun toting, gay bashing, gas guzzling, small furry animal devouring monsters.

Lileks said it very well today (as always):

You want comity? You want progress? Enough with the catastrophe rhetoric, then. Enough with the nonsense. Enough with the gasbag fantasies. Reading the Klemperer diaries make me realize again what real true perfidy looks like, and how those who view a Bush victory as “four more years of evil” are parading their petulant variety of moral idiocy for the approval of the claque. They’re the modern Rumpelstiltskins, ripping themselves in half in anger to protest the price of pants.

Michael, if you don't want to be characterized on the side of gay bashers, get off their side or make some serious effort to change it. I wish I could get Michael Moore and ANSWER to shut up, but man, I don't go to their rallies, let alone elect them President.

Please do the same with those attempting to legalize torture.

Please do the same with those destroying the environment.

Please do the same with those wrecking the budget.

You voted for Bush, you voted for all of it. If you make a serious attempt to change it, I understand and respect your decision. If not, all the disclaimers in the world are not going to make liberals respect you again.

Speak for yourself, Katherine - YOU won't respect Michael again. I think he's made it clear enough already in his pre-election posts about the things he didn't like about Bush. He doesn't need your approval to be a liberal.

I cannot take anyone seriously when they things like:

"Please do the same with those attempting to legalize torture."

Excuse me? Can you point to any evidence that this is actually in play and please lets not reference some fringe website. If in fact your referencing the Patriot Act I'd like actual information pulled from the legislation that points to your claim.

Regardless lets get realistic here, there are bad guys with bad plans of ruining our way of life. If we capture these bad guys they can lead us to other bad guys who might be plotting horrible things or help us unravel what they had planned. Unfortunately being that they are bad and bent on possibly our destruction you can't offer them a pack of smokes and a chocolate donut and expect a confessional. If intimidation and psychological torture allows us to unravel plots against the US and others then so be it, case in point KSM.

I've found liberals to be such drama queens carping about the world ending, its like a crazed preacher talking about rapture. Michael has made his decision based oh his belief that the WoT is the single most important issue of our time, in my opinion, if you voted for anything else your out of touch.

The issue of gay marriage will be on the books four years from now, along with every other social issue. If we don't take a strong stance against destroying militant Islam now we could find ourselves in a situation where the issue of gay marriage will be the least of our worries as a nation.

Katherine: all the disclaimers in the world are not going to make liberals respect you again.

Liberals aren't going to respect me no matter what I say unless I say "Invading Iraq was wrong, and I'm sorry I voted for Bush. Please forgive me my sins."

I haven't written about the environment because I haven't been paying attention to that. Sorry. As for Bush's brainless budget and the "extraordinary rendition," I've written plenty. I see no reason to stop, especially not now. But I write about these things because I feel like it, not because I want Oliver Willis to like me.

Votes for Bush is a vote for torture and gay bashing, blah, blah, blah, and you wonder why you lost? BECAUSE OF STUPID RHETORIC LIKE THAT!

calming down

I think many are defining "moral values" too narrowly. I suspect that phrase in the minds of many means a general acceptance of a traditional way of thinking. What does that include? (not in order)

1. Traditional family values
2. A willingness to say certain things are right or wrong
3. Against promincuity, drug use. hedonism
4. Against gay marriage by judicial fiat, maybe at all
5. Against a post-modern way of looking at the world
6. Valueing American nationalism and believing America is a good for the world.

Among other things. But it is broader than just the gay issue.

The LA Times exit poll had an interesting statistic that I think tells the whole story. 12 percent of voters who identified themselves as Democrats voted for Bush, whereas only 6 percent of Republicans voted for Kerry (independents split almost evenly). In 2000 the country was 50/50 but not anymore. The net loss of Democratic support to was enough to tip the election. "Democrats for Bush" tend to be single issue voters for whom national security trumps all. Lesson: It was the Dems lack of seriousness on the war that lost them the election, not gay marriage.

Canadian columnist/blogger Andrew Coyne crunched some other exit poll numbers and found some more interesting tidbits, like the fact that one-third of Bush's vote came from non-Republicans (Democrats plus independents). Money quote: "When a candidate draws increased numbers of votes from groups not traditionally identified with his party, we usually call that 'broadening the base.' So why the fascination with zombie hordes of theo-cons?"

Read the whole thing: http://andrewcoyne.com/archives/004035.php

Hey Oliver, if Michael and other 9/11 Bush voters are in league with Fred Phelps and other "bigots" where does that put you and the newly-political Bush-hating Eminem?

"My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge/ That'll stab you in the head/ whether you're a fag or lez/ Or the homosex, hermaph or a trans-a-vest/ Pants or dress hate fags? The answer's `yes'."

Do you think MJT would've have even thought those words. Em made millions on them.

That's one of the many celebrities that failed to deliver your "youth vote." You guys are on the same team. How do you square that?

Oh and look, just last week your friends were praising this guy--on your blog.

This may not be much of an argument but that's the point. Don't hang the "friend of bigots" thing on MJT.

This article also notes some other inconsistencies of your allies.

Worse, he said, musicians from Sheryl Crow to Wyclef Jean have described Eminem's album as one of their favorites. Even Melissa Etheridge, the lesbian singer and outspoken proponent of gay rights, has declined to criticize him, describing Eminem as talented while acknowledging that his words were hurtful. Etheridge declined to comment to The Associated Press.

Just finished watching a CSPAN post-election analysis program with the AEI's Norm Ornstein and others - organized by the Congressional Quarterly - Ornstein was asked about "Bush Democrats" - Had many dems crossed over? - he said there was no significant change over past elections - stood at about 11%, higher than repubs crossovers because dems tend to be less loyal and a large number of southern dems have been voting republican for years while keeping dem party affiliation (Zel Miller dems) - So, sorry Michael Totten, "war liberals" were statistically insignificant - Ornstein did repeat that the mobilization of the religious base was the most significant factor in Bush's election as all exit polls seem to indicate --

Also - Re the small gains in african communities mentioned above, Ornstein said that these were small groups of religious, socially conservative african-americans mobilized by gay marriage. If anything this is a very clear example of a democratic demographic voting for Bush because of social values. The war had nothing to do with it.

This is crazy. I am a minority female who supports gay marriage, and I voted for Bush for the same reasons that people like Michael Totten did. First time I ever voted for a Republican for president, too. You know what I've heard from a few black Democrat voters who were on the fence? Nothing about Kerry making gay marriage legal, but lots about how Kerry is "weak."

Kerry and Bush have almost an identical stand on gay marriage and civil unions. If it's true that Kerry really does support gay marriage, he's a liar, because that's not what he's said.

I understand, though, that there is no way to convince some people that every last Bush voter didn't do it because, no matter their stripe, they secretly harbor feelings of intense bigotry, and that's the REAL reason we chose Bush over Kerry. Those people can go suck eggs.

The problem for the Democrats is deep and enduring. Until they wake up and see that they have permanently lost control of Congress and have elected exactly two presidents since 1968, they will never recover. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery. The "values" issue has nothing to do with guns and gays and everything to do with the obvious contempt that "blue America" holds a clear majority of the United States. I am not going to get into specifics. I live in New York City. I hear these people. I read the NY Times. They are snobs contemptuous of anyone who might possibly disagree with them. This time they got ugly instead of just condescending. This, more than anything else, is destroying the party. Just getting a candidate who is comfortable talking religion is not going to do it. I love this country. I love Americans. I know we are a blessed and exceptionable people. As a Jewish zionist, I deeply deeply appreciate the deep and enduring support of the American people for the beleagured homeland of the Jewish people. I feel more connected to evangelicals than to many of my fellow Jews because when I hear snobby liberals lament the idiocy of the majority of this country, I wonder how they can say they are patriotic Americans after all. In any event if I, a moderate New York Jew feels this way how will a voter in Missouri feel about it? The Democrats will need to excise the haters and snobs from the party to have a chance. Believe it or not I think Hillary Clinton gets it. She may be a phony but she understands America and Americans. I hope the Dems can turn it around. I would like to vote for the party again for many reasons. And I hate being estranged politically from so many of my friends and family. But there are many of us Bush Democrats out there and the Democrats ignore us at their peril. Early indications are they continue to not get it.

MJT,

Excellent and cogent post. The demographic shift involving married women and especially married women with children was authenticated by a Pew study published early this year. The study was based upon shifts occuring in the '02 election (post 9/11) with regard to voter identification. Polls all year have identified terrorism and the battle in Iraq as being the most important issues and Kerry never came close to Bush with regard to either.

The attempt to cast the Bush victory as being based upon moral issues is as stupid as it is simplistic. It's a baby meme being petted and cooed at by the left in a futile attempt to explain away the obvious. The outcome of this election was predicated on the firmly held belief by a majority of the voters that the Bush positions on secuity issues, having already been backed by action, were infinitely more believable than a candidate who spent half his time insulting our allies and the other half shouting that we were fighting the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The claim that he had a "plan" tucked into his briefcase next to his magic hat just wasn't enough.

Katherine: "Please do the same with those attempting to legalize torture."

gibs: "Excuse me? Can you point to any evidence that this is actually in play and please lets not reference some fringe website. .... If intimidation and psychological torture allows us to unravel plots against the US and others then so be it, case in point KSM."

I agree that Katherine overstates matters, but doesn't KSM's case go a bit beyond mere "psychological" torture? Not that I believe KSM should be spared from such treatment if it will likely produce life-saving intelligence.

It's a baby meme being petted and cooed at by the left in a futile attempt to explain away the obvious.

You must be kidding. Pat Buchanan, Bob Novak, Sean Hannity, Joe Scarborough, and just about every other conservative and rightwing commentator I've heard is shreiking that "The President's values won the election for him."

Sheesh!

Katherine: Michael, if you don't want to be characterized on the side of gay bashers, get off their side or make some serious effort to change it.

I don't think Michael has been ambiguous about which "side" he's on when it comes to social issues:

I am not about to join the right-wing bandwagon. I will support a Democratic Congress as I always have. The Christian Right can take its hysterical reactionary agenda and stuff it. They are not my comrades, and they should not come looking to me for support. They will get none.

Yes, but he voted the people into power who support it. That's the side I'm talking about changing. A blog comment every two weeks does very little to change that.

To be fair, I'm not giving you enough credit for splitting the ticket. The House is worse than Bush in some ways.

As for legalizing torture:
here. Probably best to start from the bottom.

martind:

Pat Buchanan, Bob Novak, Sean Hannity, Joe Scarborough, and just about every other conservative and rightwing commentator I've heard is shreiking that "The President's values won the election for him."

Okay, you think these guys are wrong about everything else. Why do you think they're right on this?

Michael Totten alleges he has written "many" words on Extraordinary Rendition. He has written one hundred and seventy four.

This compares unfavorably to the number of words he's written about "Emperor Misha," which he condemned for two hundred and three. It compares favorably to the number of words he has written condemning Paul Weyrich, at zero.

Mark,

Simple people need to cling to simple memes. But even simple people should be able to ask why in the world would a polling company (producing a survey paid for by the MSM) diaggregate 'security' into 'terrorism' and 'the war in Iraq' and conflate a truckload of issues into 'morality'. Simple people think that baby memes are found under cabbage leaves.

PS Good blog.

Rick, thank you.

Bill, "Multimillionaires or poor white trash are the only people who voted for Bush?"..

When you run for President and win by more popular votes than anyone ever in American history it is not just multimillionaires or poor white trash (BTW, what is your definition of poor white trash?)that gave you that victory..

You sound like a whining ass!

I absolutely wish I was a multimillionaire (except then I might feel a need to look and act like Teresa Kerry. Dreadful thought)! I've worked for 32 years and have a BS from OSU..Maybe 4 year degrees now qualify as being poor white trash. Or, maybe you just don't know what the hell your talking about?

You and people like you, who refuse to see the damage your party is doing, or rather choose to believe something is wrong with the majority of the country instead of accepting that the democratic party is in need of desperate repair, do absolutely nothing to fix the problem.

Next time, run a candidate that we can trust, believe in and have some faith in and maybe you'll get your victory! In the meantime...Please don't whine!

One more thing Bill...I was a democrat for years..I voted for clinton, clinton and Gore but Kerry did not get my vote..I may come back to the democratic party in 2008 but not if the choice isn't better than this time. Meaning, I can't see myself voting for John Edwards in 2008. Hilliary, maybe! Depends on who the Republicans run and of course what happens in the meantime.

I will say, that some where in the future, if he can hold on to his momentum and his values and morals, we may one day see a great democratic tkt., with Barack Obama's name on it.

I call myself a conservative, I voted for Bush, and I voted No on 36 in Oregon.

When I think of "values" in the context of this election, the main thing that comes to mind is the principle of standing up to one's enemies. That's the moral fiber that John Kerry lacks. Compared to that, a microshade of grey on the subject of "gay rights" is completely irrelevant.

Vanya sez:

"Another minor issue - Michael, you are right that Kerry says he opposes gay marriage. But if you read your own comments sections you'll see there appear to be quite a few anti-Kerry people out there who think he does support gay marriage "off the record". "

For me that was a major issue - not whether or not he supported gay marriage, but that on so many issues you coudln't be sure that what he said had anything to do with what he really believed "off the record."

For a lot of people, lying about your real beliefs and agenda in order to get elected is a major turn-off. Some might even categorize chronic spineless mendacity as a "morals and values" type issue when answering an exit poll.

I'm fantastically amused by the assumption that Bush trumped Kerry on 'national security' or 'standing up to our enemies'. But, as a guy who believes that the greatest moment of the campaign was when the Smirking Chimp finally had to admit to the "merrigan peeble" that he knew it was Osama and not Hussein who attacked us, you'd expect me to feel that way, I guess.

Just so long as torture, lying, and unbridled greed aren't "moral" questions, we'll all be fine.

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