November 03, 2004

Who and What I am Not

Michelle Catalano speaks for me.

If you don't mind, I'd like to address the throngs of Chicken Littles who seem to be out in full force on the net today. I just want to clear up a few things, as you all seem to be pretty misguided in more than one area today.

I voted for George Bush.
I am not a redneck.
I do not spend my days watching cars race around a track, drinking cheap beer and slapping my woman on the ass.
I am not a bible thumper. In fact, I am an atheist.
I am not a homophobe.
I am educated beyond the fifth grade. In fact, I am college educated.
I am not stupid. Not by any stretch of facts.
I do not bomb abortion clinics.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at November 3, 2004 09:56 AM

You drink cheap beer and slap your woman on the ass?! I never knew.

Who said college educated athiests couldn't have fun.

Posted by: Robert at November 3, 2004 10:00 AM

It's common for people to lash out when they don't get their way, so expect more to come.

I mean it's common for CHILDREN to lash out (adults reassess and contemplate how to adjust their policies in order to garner a majority), that is.

Vote or die, indeed.

Posted by: Ricky at November 3, 2004 10:06 AM

You voted for hate. Be proud!

Posted by: Oliver at November 3, 2004 10:18 AM

James Wolcott nails it with a sledgehammer:

"Good, Go Ahead, America, Choke on Your Own Vomit, You Deserve to Die."

Posted by: TBOGG at November 3, 2004 10:21 AM

I am positive the Republicans would be equally nasty if they lost. In fact, I know they would. I have endured some seriously offensive assumptions about who I must be, and what my values are, etc., based on the fact that I supported Kerry. None of these assumptions were correct.

Oh - and how adult is it to whine publicly? Not very. If you are confident that you are not a redneck, then who cares what others say? Hmmm?

Posted by: karrie at November 3, 2004 10:21 AM

OK Oliver,

YOU are part of the reason W got more votes for Prez than ANYONE in history. THAT kind of vitriol. It works on college campuses, in Berkeley, Cambridge and Madison, and it backfires everywhere else.

Blowback indeed.

Posted by: spc67 at November 3, 2004 10:22 AM

Oliver: You voted for hate. Be proud!

I'm going to let that pass because I know you're unhappy today. You know me better than that so knock it off.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 3, 2004 10:24 AM

Good morning friends. Yesterday, I joined 54 million other AMERICANS in voting for John Kerry. Oh well. I'm glad I did and I would do so again. America is a great country, but it would be greater if it had elected Adali Stevenson and John Kerry. I'm glad that we stood for the social issues that apparently did us in among many voters. It was the right thing to do. I plan to be more magnimonious in defeat than Republicans would have been. I await with trepidation but also some hope the prospect that the Bush doctrine in foreign affairs, particularly the Middle East, will continue to be implemented. I remind my conservative friends of their own rhetoric -- that our Constitution is set up to protect and political expression for minority groups -- and that this includes liberal americans. The Senate filibuster rule remains in effect, and I hope and expect my party to use it to stop as many of Bush's ill-conceived policy proposals as possible.

Coming into work, I fantasized about appending onto this comment the poem "America", by that great American patriot and NAMBLA member Allen Ginsberg. But it's too long, and so I'll forego such a move.

As I said, the 60 vote filibuster remains in effect.

Posted by: Markus Rose at November 3, 2004 10:27 AM

I'm going to let that pass because I know you're unhappy today. You know me better than that so knock it off.

Today? People call Dubya a divider (which he is), but there would still be a stark raving mad rift in the country even if Kerry won. America will never be the same. It's a sad reality. The battlelines were drawn in this election and there isn't an eraser big enough to remove them.

The atmosphere is more ripe for Civil War than it was in 1860, and there is nothing Bush can do during his next four years to ease it.

Posted by: jrr at November 3, 2004 10:34 AM

I voted for John Kerry.
I am not a liberal. (I'm a Republican)
I do not spend my days telling people how much smarter I am than them.
I am not an communist sympathising atheist.
I do not have a Masters degree.
I do not sip tea and Pernot with my pinky finger in the air.
I am also not bitter that Bush won, but rather congratulated him and feel better that at least somebody managed to win with a true mandate from the people and a majority of the largest voter turnout I've ever seen.

Posted by: Jazz Shaw at November 3, 2004 10:40 AM

Thanks for the link, Michael. Catalano also speaks for me, uncannily so.

Posted by: Matt Snyder at November 3, 2004 10:45 AM


Perhaps I "live in a bubble" as it were but I've not seen that kind of hackneyed sterotypical accessment suggested by Michele Catalano. Then again, I'm not really that inundated in the "blogosphere" so maybe there are "throngs of Chicken Littles" out there.

On the other hand, my boss just did a Herman Munster-esq impression of John Kerry saying "DARN! DARN! DARN! DARN!!" so I suppose there is some boorishness out there.

I choose to be optomistic, however, and assume that this is the exception and not the rule. I choose to believe that the majority are ready to accept the election results for what they are and move on.

Posted by: joekm at November 3, 2004 10:46 AM

So, I'm curious about something all you supposed "decent" Bush voters can answer for me: When the virulent anti-gay stuff really kicks in, as the evangelicals cash in their votes and when the Supreme Court really lurches rightward and Roe v Wade is gone, are you going to cheer or just look down in shame or make excuses about your values?

Posted by: Seymour Paine at November 3, 2004 10:49 AM


I'm an evangelical who voted for kerry and none of that stuff is gonna happen. If it does, I owe you a coke.

Posted by: John Totten at November 3, 2004 11:04 AM

Seymour - why do you assume all of those issues are tied in one package?

i.e. why do you assume someone has to either hate or love all three scenarios? I for one would be very much against two of those issues, but would support one of them.

A problem that continues to divide America is the belief that all liberals believe in their hearts issues a, b, c, d and e, and all conservatives believe the opposite.

It's not true anymore - the "platforms" have sprung leaks.

Posted by: Barry at November 3, 2004 11:08 AM

Michelle's missing the point. Most evangelical Christians voted for George Bush, most rural Americans voted for Bush, most NASCAR fans voted for George Bush, most homophobes voted for George Bush. Of course it doesn't follow that Michelle is any of those things but it is very naive to try to completely disassociate yourself from these elements when Rove followed a strategy of shoring up precisely these elements (the base) to win the election. It's disingenuous in particular to pretend that homophobia (i.e. "values) did not play a key role in this election. Politics is a dirty game. If you feel 100% a-ok about the way Bush won you've lost some of your soul.

Posted by: vanya at November 3, 2004 11:08 AM

Congratulations. You're not a flat-earth, homo-cursing, Bible-thumping, gun-toting imbecile. You just stood hand in hand with them, is all. Good for you. This is your reward. Hope you like it.

Posted by: pdf at November 3, 2004 11:09 AM

Seymour Paine,

I voted against Oregon's anti-gay ballot measure, but tens of thousands of your Kerry-supporting buddies in my state voted for it.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 3, 2004 11:17 AM

To the people of Oregon:

How dare you? How dare you tell me I’m less than you? How dare you have me face every person I know, meet or interact with each day and wonder if they are part of the 56% of you who believe you are better than I – that you deserve rights I do not have.

How dare you hide behind school children and make this issue about their “protection”. What about the children in school who question their own self-worth, their own sanity, because they don’t fit the mold?

Do you feel safer now? Help me understand how preventing others from marrying protects your marriage? Are your marriages so fragile they can be shaken by the events of people you don’t even know?

In a state where “live and let live” has always been the forefront of every argument, how can you justify this?

Oregon has joined the ranks of Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Georgia, and South Carolina (to name a few) in progressing the cause of discrimination. Don’t ever dare joke about those states being ‘backwards’ and ‘ignorant’ again. Don’t ever dare think of yourself on a higher ground than those states that put politics in pulpits and bedrooms – that plaster religious documents in their courthouses and courtrooms. Don’t dare look with distain and distaste at states that allow a confederate flag to fly above their capitals. You are no better. I am appalled by your hypocrisy.

Be ashamed of what you have done. Be ashamed of the level to which you have sunk.

Dinah Smith
Salem, OR

Posted by: Dinah at November 3, 2004 11:21 AM

Democracy is a real bitch, ain't it Lefties?

Posted by: Tom Pain at November 3, 2004 11:28 AM

PDF, that "guilt by association" theme was seen as outdated and discarded long ago...

Just because two people happen to be walking in the same direction doesn't mean they're related.

Consider this - two people run back into a burning building to save a child. One's a Democrat, one's a Republican. Should we condemn the Republican for allying himself with a "babykiller" or condemn the Democrat for standing hand in hand with a "warmonger"?

No. At that moment, they happened to have the same goal.

Posted by: Barry at November 3, 2004 11:28 AM

Well, perhaps good will come out of this election:

1. Bush is now obviously the choice of the people, ill-concieved or not. If he is truly a uniter, not a divider, then he will hold out the olive branch and the democrats should grab it. The people have spoken and the Democrats would be foolish not to listen. Of course, almost half the country expressed displeasure at the current way things are going. Bush could take that into consideration.

2. 11 states showed that they could take care of themselves when it comes to gay marriage. Hopefully this will stop the federal amendment and we'll retain States Rights.

I'm not feeling positive about anything, other than a mild fear that we'll see the next four years as a repeat of the first, without any restraint. I hope to Eris that Bush truly wants to unite the country.

Of course, my bitch goddess is happy. This is sure to add more chaos, discord, confusion and International Relations to the world.

Damn Eris.

The Tree Rat ;-)

Posted by: Ratatosk at November 3, 2004 11:29 AM

Nice 'friends'you 'deserted' when you voted conscience over habit.
And on a personal note

GLOAT !!!!!

Posted by: dougf at November 3, 2004 11:57 AM

"Congratulations. You're not a flat-earth, homo-cursing, Bible-thumping, gun-toting imbecile. You just stood hand in hand with them, is all. Good for you." -- pdf

C'mon, as Barry pointed out, this is just plain silliness. It may ease your smart in some small measure but no reasonable person could take your argument seriously. Just because two people vote for the same candidate doesn't mean that they somehow endorse all of each other's views or that they stand "hand in hand" with one another. Do you think that among the 55+ million Kerry voters there weren't some rapists/murderers/violent criminals? Would you say that you stand hand in hand with them?

Maybe M.T. was right about letting some things go today since Kerry supporters are bound to be understandably disappointed, but this is really over the top (I'm not even going to touch Oliver's mindless "voted for hate" remark).

Posted by: Michael Hall at November 3, 2004 12:04 PM

pdf writes: Congratulations. You're not a flat-earth, homo-cursing, Bible-thumping, gun-toting imbecile. You just stood hand in hand with them, is all. Good for you. This is your reward. Hope you like it.

And you (and amazingly, I), "stood hand in hand" with these insane, racist frightening moonbats.

One of the major benefits of Bush's victory, even though I have many reservations, is that those super-freaks (and many others), are not smiling today.

Posted by: SoCalJustice at November 3, 2004 12:10 PM

Whoa - careful, SoCalJ - some of those pics aren't work-safe...

Posted by: Barry at November 3, 2004 12:19 PM

Whoops - should have posted a warning.

A warning other than "insane, racist frightening moonbats" I mean.

Sorry everyone.

Posted by: SoCalJustice at November 3, 2004 12:21 PM

>>Of course, almost half the country expressed displeasure at the current way things are going. Bush could take that into consideration.

He didn't at any point during the last four years, and if the first term has taught us anything it's that he suffers from fused vertebrae - he is absolutely incapable of turning his head, once he's chosen a direction. So don't count on your opinion meaning anything for the next four years.

The one potential up-side I see, so far, is that barring another terrorist attack, the President will probably never visit New York City (or New Jersey, where I live) again.

Posted by: pdf at November 3, 2004 12:21 PM

I admit, "stood hand in hand" is probably the wrong phrase. Allow me to amend my comment: you may not be a flat-earth, Bible-thumping, gun-toting, gay-hating imbecile, but you helped them toward building the society they want.

I genuinely do not believe Bush's foreign policy makes us safer. And I'll be blunt: I do not think Middle Eastern democracy is worth the loss of our own society, and I do think Bush's domestic policies are economically crippling, ecologically catastrophic, and socially nightmarish. It's not a fair trade, and I said as much before the election, on this site: I predicted that if he won, this country wouldn't be worth saving.

Bush voters have empowered the theocrats. Good luck to all of us.

Posted by: pdf at November 3, 2004 12:26 PM

Mr. Totten: This seems an appropriate opportunity for me to commend you for your thoughtful blogging on matters political. I've long enjoyed your meaty posts here, and also applaud you for your quick mastery of the somewhat different format Prof. Reynolds uses on InstaPundit as a guest blogger there. Kudos, and thanks!

Posted by: Beldar at November 3, 2004 12:40 PM

Sound's like Jeff Jarvis's pledge is asymetrical.

Posted by: bob at November 3, 2004 12:42 PM

Ahh yes...anti-Christian bigotry.

The last bastion of politically-correct hatred.

Please make sure to mention how much you hate "flat-earth, Bible-thumping, gun-toting, gay-hating imbeciles" at the next election.

It only makes even easier for the GOP.

Thank you for getting out the vote (for the GOP!)

Posted by: Snake at November 3, 2004 12:44 PM

pdf: Bush voters have empowered the theocrats.

True, up to a point. I also voted for Democrats in Congress, thus helping "empower" left-wing nutjobs like those SoCalJustice pointed to in his post above.

Hopefully, "my" nutjobs will cancel each other out.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 3, 2004 12:46 PM

Thanks, Beldar.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 3, 2004 12:47 PM

"I'm an evangelical who voted for kerry and none of that stuff is gonna happen. If it does, I owe you a coke." Perhaps you can hand me that coke through the concentration camp wire. Behind Bush and energized by Bush are supporters who would like to see me executed; many others would just settle for me to be completely marginalized. Now, with the far-right president, and far right Congress and far right Court, who is going to protect me? You?

And as for Barry's comment that "...why do you assume all of those issues are tied in one package?" I have news for Barry: They are in one package and that package is called Bush. In an election, you cannot pick and chose attributes of the candidates you like and vote for them. It's not a smorgasbord; it's a completely dinner. So, people like yourself have decided, in effect, that Roe v Wade can go, women can become slaves of the state, gay people can be marginalized (or worse); "faith-based" crap can intrude into our lives (and by the way, I say "crap" because it is just that: it's purely a pay off to churches that support Bush).

So, again, I ask: When Roe v Wade is gone and women are hauled into court for murder and when gay people can't visit their loved ones in hospitals, you, including our esteemed Mr. Totten, can thank yourselves. But you won't have the excuse that you didn't vote for these "values," because you did.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at November 3, 2004 12:47 PM

You know what I find most telling? The very fact that the Democrat party - the party of inclusion - is so fond of their simple stereotypes. I guess they are ok as long as they are about an accepted group.

I also voted for George Bush.

I have sported a "redneck", but the worst one I ever had I earned while buildng a house for Habitat for Humanity.

I enjoy the hell out of NASCAR. I used to love cheap beer. And I have slapped my woman on the ass, but she has slapped mine as well. Isn't the relationship between two people supposed to be an individual choice above the reproach of outsiders? If that type of behavior is within the loving relationship of our marriage, who are you to judge it?

I was raised in a church. Of my own way, I am found myself much closer to being an athiest as well. That being said, I fully intend to raise my children in a church environment because I believe that it exposes them to the same positive values that led me to Habitat for Humanity and a happy marriage. If its done around the concept of an "invisible friend", who cares? As long as it results in a positive, where is the negative?

I am also not a homophobe, but I don't care for government attempting to tell religion what they do and do not have to recognize as a religious sacrament. The left was frantic to get prayer out of schools, but they seem frantic to put the functions of the Probate Court into the pulpit. And again, as long as you are worrying about how I interact with my wife in my home, why is your home off limits? Disagree with me? Fine. This is America - that is totally cool. Debate the point. Don't say I am a homophobe because I don't accept your argument without debate.

I'm two semesters away from getting my second bachelor's degree. I've read The Rubiyat. I thought it sucked and was highly overrated. Mostly, I didn't connect with it. I believe that is because I have little in common with the themes included in it, but I don't light it on fire to start my Bar-B-Q grill. I save the New York Times for that.

It goes on and on. Perhaps before people start tossing around these broad prejudices, people should start to consider the following fact. Kerry lost yesterday, in no small part, because the positive of all of these listed things is what John Kerry and the Democrat party believed lived south of the Mason Dixon line.

In point of fact the first Democrat I ever knew was my grandfather. He was a hardworking, but heavily prejudiced farmer from the outskirts of rural Georgia. His seething race hatred oozed out of his pores and I got a bellyfull of it as I was growing up. I came to associate the Democrat party with the party of closed mindedness, ignorance and prejudices. To me, it looks like nothing much has changed except the skin color and background of the accepted "nigger".

And THAT, above all else, is why George W. Bush carried the entire south. Until the Democrats figure that out, get used to the minority position in this government.

Posted by: Roark at November 3, 2004 12:55 PM

So Cal jUSTICE: you are completely mistaken when you say that "those superfreaks are not smiling today." Having just talked to one on the Metro going into work this morning, I can tell you that indeed they are smiling. They didn't vote for Kerry. And now, their view of America as an evil, ignorant, war-mongering nation has been reaffirmed, and they can look forward to four more years of exhibitionism, and of being unwitting foils for the sort of Republican guilt by association tactics that you just engaged in.

Posted by: markus rose at November 3, 2004 12:56 PM

Terrorist supporters voted Democrat.

Seymour Paine voted Democrat.

Ergo, Seymour Paine is a terrorist.

Did I get your logic correct?

Posted by: Snake at November 3, 2004 12:56 PM

Nobody is going try to execute you or put you in a concentration camp, Seymour.

You can vote for Hillary in 2008.

In fact, I'll bet money now that this country elects a Democrat in 2008.

Posted by: Eric Blair at November 3, 2004 01:00 PM

"I am also not a homophobe, but I don't care for government attempting to tell religion what they do and do not have to recognize as a religious sacrament."

Roark -- no you're not a homophobe, just a typically misinformed Bush voter. The Massachusetts gay marriage decision, like the Hawaii decision before it, says NOTHING about compelling churches to recognize gay marriages, and NO ONE that I know of is calling for requiring churches to marry gays.

Posted by: markus rose at November 3, 2004 01:01 PM

Well Michael, this has turned out to be an enlightening experience, hasn't it?

Time for some serious self reflection.

Posted by: FH at November 3, 2004 01:04 PM

I liked Kerry's concession speech.

Do the lefties think they'll mitigate the smackdown they just recieved by insulting Bush voters?

Posted by: Raymond at November 3, 2004 01:08 PM

"Roark -- no you're not a homophobe, just a typically misinformed Bush voter. "

Are you suggesting that an activist gay couple, excited by the prospect of state recognized gay "marriage", would not sue a church who refused to marry them to force their political agenda into the front pages of newspapers and into a courtroom in which the main event is "Homosexuals vs. Organized Religion: The Rumble in the Jungle Part 1"?

What would the outcome be? I have no idea, but I do know that it would be made by one person: the judge in the case. If that decision was made in Mass. or the 11th Circuit, I know what the result would be. And I see a violation of the 1st Amendment in that.

If that makes me "typically misinformed", so be it. Personally, I think its that sort of insight as to the long term agenda in promoting "equality", via a short circuit through the courts that bypasses a national debate, that scares the crap outta people like you and drives you to call people like me names.

Call me crazy.

Posted by: Roark at November 3, 2004 01:09 PM


Unfortunately the racists like your grandfather are now the backbone of the new Republican party in the south. Along with those new voters the Republicans have inheritied the mantle of racism and intolerance. I agree with you that it's not an accurate picture of Republicans nationwide, but in today's South it sure seems that way. The moderate New England Republicans of my youth, the real voices of tolerance and reason, have almost all been forced out of the party their ancestors founded.

Posted by: vanya at November 3, 2004 01:13 PM

I don't see a lot of difference in the intended effects of:

When Roe v Wade is gone and women are hauled into court for murder and when gay people can't visit their loved ones in hospitals, you, including our esteemed Mr. Totten, can thank yourselves.


"Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security." (OBL)

Aren't both just scare tactics that have little basis in the reality of the situation?

Posted by: Barry at November 3, 2004 01:13 PM

Bobby Jindal, an Indian-American Republican, was elected to Congress.

What state is he from???

Answer: The evil racist barefooted hillbilly red-state of Louisiana.

Clearly David Duke and the KKK was behind this racist plot.

The vile racist backbone of GOP in the South is exposed in all of its cross burning glory.

Posted by: Snake at November 3, 2004 01:21 PM


Funny, but I thought I was the backbone of the new Republican party in the south. In fact, I am pretty sure I am.

I am reminded of the New York poet that claimed, in 1972, that she didn't know anyone who had voted for Richard Nixon. In the world I live, there are no Democrats. To put it quite frankly, I am her mirror opposite and my environment is almost exclusively Republican. All of my friends voted Republican and George W. Bush is considered a president who rivals Reagan. Now, you can believe me or not but this is the truth: the south is not the hotbed of racism everyone outside of it thinks it is.

It is an amazing comfort to blame the huge Bush vote in the south on flaming racism, but it is not accurate. People vote for Bush in the south because they identify with the traditional Republican values of hard work and the American dream. Kerry didn't resonante with people in the south because he - and his supporters - do not understand that while some of us may be without healthcare we would sooner get a third job than to take a "handout" from the government.

They hyper-reaction of the Democrat party to provide a government program to solve every problem is greeted with immediate suspicion in most of the south and it mostly likely comes back to one thing. We have had a first row seat to the government's "War on Poverty" to help the African American community. We see what half a decade of "help" has done for them and we understand it is no help at all.

If it makes it easier to sleep, write the south off as a racist bunch of homophobes. I won't tell you that some people down here don't vote that way, but no one I know voted for Bush because he hates the "negros". They vote for Bush because they honestly believe he will be better for the country and everyone in it, no matter what color they are.

Posted by: Roark at November 3, 2004 01:23 PM

Markus Rose:

I can tell you that indeed they are smiling. They didn't vote for Kerry. And now, their view of America as an evil, ignorant, war-mongering nation has been reaffirmed, and they can look forward to four more years of exhibitionism, and of being unwitting foils for the sort of Republican guilt by association tactics that you just engaged in.

First - please, the "guilt by association" tactics are what prompted my post - please read up the thread.

And second, the fact that post-lobotomal experiments like that think America is evil is proof that the exact opposite is true.

Posted by: SoCalJustice at November 3, 2004 02:02 PM


I know there are many upstanding Southern Republicans. There are many racist Democrats in Massachusetts. Still, it is a fact that the segregationist wing of the old Southern Democrats has been absorbed pretty much lock stock & barrel by movement Conservatism. Good for you for not associating with them but I've met plenty of them, particularly in South Carolina and Georgia.

I feel sorry for you in your insular all-Republican world. Every day in Boston I work with Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, and "don't bother me with politics" types. My boss is an ex-60s radical turned engineer and my office neighbor is an ex-Army Ranger. On my block lives a gay couple with kids, liberal jewish families, conservative catholic families, conservative jewish families and asian families of no obvious political persuasion. Some of my friends are rabid Bush supporters and some are rabid Kerry supporters. All of them in one way or another break the sterotypes, probably because they're forced to interact with each other. It seems like this kind of give-and-take is disappearing in most of America.

And please don't get on your high horse about Southern hard work. The South has been taking handouts from the North since the Civil War, they're just disguised as pork rather than direct welfare. The entire Southern textile, cotton and sugar industries are essentially handouts subsidized on the backs of Northern consumers.

Posted by: vanya at November 3, 2004 02:07 PM

Roark - regarding this:
"Are you suggesting that an activist gay couple, excited by the prospect of state recognized gay "marriage", would not sue a church who refused to marry them..."

You don't seem to get that there is a difference between secular marriage as recognized by the state, and religous marriage. Churches already can choose who they do or don't marry. For example, the Catholic church does not marry divorced individuals - have you heard of any lawsuits to demand that they do?

Furthermore, some churches already recognize and perform weddings for same-sex couples. The gay couple in your scenario would probably go to one of those churches rather than one opposed.

Gay couples are not seeking to overthrow your religion or demand that you change. They are asking for the ability to have their families recognized as legal families, with all the protections that go along with that.

The notion that western civilization will crumble if my partner and I file a joint tax return or are allowed to visit each other in the hospital is ridiculous.

As for the election, my anger and dismay does not stem from the prospect of Bush as president. It stems from the fact that apparently, pandering to the religious right was very effective for the republican party. I feel as though my family has been attacked, between the state marriage amendments, the FMA, the constant homophobic campaigning, etc. If millions of people declared that YOUR family should not exist, you'd probably be disgusted as well.

Posted by: Sara at November 3, 2004 02:13 PM

Sara: And you seem to think you can bully people into submission with stereotypes and bogus assuptions. Sorry - that won't work with the voters either.

Posted by: Snake at November 3, 2004 02:21 PM

Snake - how does wishing to protect my family constitute "bullying" of anyone? I have no argument with your family - why do you wish to attack mine?

What "stereotypes and bogus assumptions" are you talking about? I simply pointed out the difference between religious and secular marriage.

Many of the state amendments that just passed are worded in ways that suggest they could be used to block civil unions and other non-marriage arrangements. I feel threatened by that, because such things can give total strangers power over my family, in a very direct way.

Posted by: Sara at November 3, 2004 02:47 PM


I'll second Roark on that. I live in the South as well (Texas counts, right?), and though unlike Roark, most of my friends are a mix of libertarians and kneejerk liberals (I'm respectfully working on that latter part), I tend to agree that racial interactions are remarkably healthy here (healthy enough to discuss between friends of different races, anyhow), certainly much better than the ignorant caricatures of people who've never been here, or of California, where I grew up playing in burnt out houses that had been torched in the Watts riots (some of which were burned again during the Rodney King riots 20-odd years later). The guy I voted for lost (my vote was based on stem cells, Kass's luddite bioethics, and real economic conservativism, FWIW), but I'm unwilling to say Kerry's loss was because the other guy's supporters are stupid, or evil, or consumed by hate. That's just no way to move forward (especially when you'd like to appeal to them to vote for your team next time!). In a time of war, Kerry's attempts to juggle the pro-defense and pro-peace wings was just an impossible task, as the votes of bloggers like Michael and Armed Liberal clearly show. People routinely vote against their economic interests in support of their social values (limousine liberals, the religious poor, pro-defense, well, everybody), and anti-Bushism just isn't a strong enough value out here, (especially since it's so easy to conflate that hate with generic anti-Americanism). It'll be interesting to see if the mainstream D's out there will learn the right lessons, regroup, reorganise, and stand FOR something (good economic stewardship and strong civil liberties? Pretty please?), or if they'll continue to decline in power.

Posted by: Gene Thug at November 3, 2004 03:02 PM

For what it's worth, I think Sara is winning this argument.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at November 3, 2004 03:03 PM

Hello, my name is Rick and I voted for George Bush. Alrighty then, that takes care of step one.

I voted for President Bush because:

First and foremost, trumping all else, I believe he is handling the war correctly.

Second, I saw in Senator Kerry the same morally bankrupt personality that I saw in President Clinton. I could just picture him getting BJs in the Oval Office while telling me that "character doesn't matter." Character does matter. Morals matter.

OK, take your best shot

Semper Fi

Posted by: RickM at November 3, 2004 04:12 PM


To be an Atheist don't you have to believe there is a God to not believe in one? Having to explain what you are not is pathetic. Most people don't live in the cities of this country they live where morals and strength live the "flyover area".
This is the best thing to happen in this country since Ronald Reagan. Not to mention that now the country will be more conservative and the Supreme Court will hopefully end up with people who interpret law not the constitution as their charter dictates.

It will be the loss of God in this nation that will destroy it not terrorism.

Posted by: barney at November 3, 2004 04:31 PM

And you (and amazingly, I), "stood hand in hand" with these insane, racist frightening moonbats.

Really? Please explain. How did anyone here stand "hand in hand" with those people? Because I missed their "Vote for Kerry" signs.

Posted by: kc at November 3, 2004 04:43 PM

It will be the loss of God in this nation that will destroy it not terrorism.

Gee, where have I heard that kind of talk before? Let me think. Hmmm. Somewhere in the Middle East . . . it's coming to me . . .

Posted by: kc at November 3, 2004 04:46 PM


Ooooh and what has a christian ever done to you that anyone else hasn't?

If the christians wanted to crusade they would but at this time they will let the others destroy themselves.

Posted by: barney at November 3, 2004 04:50 PM

Are you suggesting that an activist gay couple, excited by the prospect of state recognized gay "marriage", would not sue a church who refused to marry them

If that laughable scenario actually happened (and it wouldn't), the lawsuit would be promptly dismissed on First Amendment grounds. Try arguing from reality.

Posted by: kc at November 3, 2004 04:50 PM

Ok, if you want it explained...

People who compare Bush to Hitler are part of the ABB crowd.

If you want a more mainstream example, look no further than Michael "It's all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Halliburton" Moore.

Posted by: SoCalJustice at November 3, 2004 04:52 PM

But if you want to look further, there's always Ted "I'm a liberal democrat" Rall.

Posted by: SoCalJustice at November 3, 2004 04:54 PM

Here's another example for KC:

Posted by: SoCalJustice at November 3, 2004 05:01 PM


The history of the textile industry in the South is a long, long way from the average Southern American voting for a man that has promised to increase taxes and launch a new government program that is going to cost trillions of dollars.

For every Trent Lott, there is a Robert Byrd. I will urge you to reconsider your comfortable position that the South is driven by racism. It might be comfortable, but it is wrong and as long as the Democrats possess this very incorrect viewpoint (along with the one that anyone who watches NASCAR can't have an IQ over 100) their party is going to continue the swirl down the drain.

People will not vote for a party that considers them to be knuckle dragging trogdolytes. And unless someone else starts voting for Democrats, this is quickly going to become a one party country. That isn't good.

Posted by: Roark at November 3, 2004 05:19 PM

Its a ahme that so many gay people and sympathizers for them are "heterophobes".
Let's face it most of the Libs would sooner kill their babies as birth control then bitch because people value lifemore than that. Civil unions would suffice for what you're asking for but you want to rationalize that a piece of paper from the State gives you something. Marriage is a religious bond. Many heteros get civic unions at justices of the peace, this is what you should fight for not marriage. But then you only want to play the victim. You can't understand that bible followers see your behaviour as an abomination and there would be no reason for you to go there, they'll never accept you, so why go there? Most people in church aren't asking people there what their sexuality is. Christians and gays should remember that forgiveness is a virtue that can only be given by God.

Posted by: barney at November 3, 2004 05:45 PM

I couldn't vote (moved to a new state, and didn't get registered in time), but if I had, it would've been for Bush.

The candidate I WANTED to vote for was some conflagration of Kerry's social policy and Bush's WOT/economic policy, but said candidate wasn't available. So, I based my "vote" on the issue, the only issue, that, for me, matters, the WOT. I simply couldn't take Sen. Kerry seriously on said issue, and so he lost me early on.

Now, is that rationale hard to understand? Whether you agree with it or not, it was reasoned out, it was prayed over, and it was constantly reassessed. Don't call me and the many, many people like me "idiots," or associate me with Nazis. Why would I EVER consider YOUR party in the wake of such vitriol?

And, for what it's worth, when Bush starts building concentration camps, look me up... I'll be the first person to join you in the revolution. For now, I'm none too concerned....

Posted by: JAB at November 3, 2004 07:14 PM

But one is known by the company one keeps.

Posted by: David Sucher at November 3, 2004 08:06 PM

Oliver -- You have provided great entertainment for me today. I would bet that yesterday was one of the worst days of your life.

Do you have any other moonbat, lefty friends that you can direct to this page who are willing to display how pissed they are that a great President was reelected?

I hope you do, because that degree of misery deserves public recognition. LMAO.

Posted by: PC at November 3, 2004 08:52 PM

Sara's comments are powerful and touching and pursuasive. But then I was already in favor of gay unions.

And Gene Thug - you're right. I'm in Texas too; political and racial relations are way healthier here than in other parts of the country. The blind spitting fury that I've been reading about today has not been present among my friends, family and coworkers. I'm in Houston - very even mix of Republicans and Democrats, lots of churches and syngogues and mosques and very gay friendly. We don't have such intense and bitter feuding. Think it's because we're all armed? :)

Posted by: Holly at November 3, 2004 09:13 PM


I will accept your proposition that the Southern Republican Party is not driven by racism, I actually love country music,I love Southern barbecue, and I recognize that Southern girls are a hell of a lot prettier than Northern girls, but I will never accept your proposition that someone with an IQ over 100 can enjoy NASCAR.

Posted by: vanya at November 4, 2004 07:19 AM

Well vanya how high-minded of you. Online ego measuring has never been my forte but let’s just say I've got an IQ over 100 and I don't mind NASCAR at all, in fact one of the best sporting events I've ever attending was Daytona about 3 years ago. What heck what do I know I'm just a Georgia hick?

"The notion that western civilization will crumble if my partner and I file a joint tax return or are allowed to visit each other in the hospital is ridiculous."

I think gays try to simplify this issue in order to enact sympathy from those that don't realize the social implications. I'm all for civil unions, have accepted the fact that gays receive the same family healthcare benefits as I do at work, would never have issue with joint tax returns or hospital visits, estate sharing. However, I do have a problem with people, by way of activist judges, enacting law instead of interpreting it. This is a democracy not an oligopoly ruled by judges appointed, not voted, into office. This country has been built and is nourished on the foundation of marriage between one man and one woman to serve as a conduit for the family. If you want to satisfy tax code struggles and hospital visiting rights enter into a civil union certified by the state.

I find it deplorable that gays try to draw parallel lines between their struggle and the civil rights movement. As if we've established separate bathroom facilities, water fountains, and conducted public displays of physical intimidation through cross burning and hangings. Comments made, in this thread, about future gay only concentration camps are simply childish.

This country was founded on the inedible rights of man, for this reason I believe gays have every right to speak their minds, chose any religion, own a gun, not be physically or verbally abused, the list goes on. However, I don't believe it is anyone's right to impose their post-modern definition of a several millennia institution because it suits their lifestyle needs and creates inner legitimacy.

Posted by: gibs. at November 4, 2004 11:59 AM

How condescending, Michael. I thought better of you. To wit...

It is possible to be a married, churchgoing NASCAR fan who:

>has a M.S. in MechEng from Texas A&M.
>is comfortable with homosexuals as long as they
are not blowing whistles in his face screaming
>can't understand why a school nurse must have my
permission to give my daugher an aspirin but can
arrange a dangerous surgical procedure for her
without my knowledge.
>has grown accustomed to Miller Lite.

...Venture outside of your little Portland coccoon, boy -- you might avoid insulting people who might otherwise be your friend.


Posted by: furious_a at November 4, 2004 12:03 PM

one more thing I might add:

Seventy percent to 80 percent of Americans oppose gay marriage and partial-birth abortion. Far from appealing exclusively to a narrow Republican base, opposition to gay marriage is strongest among the Democratic base: blacks, Hispanics, blue-collar workers and the elderly. There were marriage amendments on the ballot in Michigan and Ohio. Bush won Ohio narrowly and lost Michigan by only 2 points.

Posted by: gibs. at November 4, 2004 01:01 PM

Here's some more timely images for KC and Markus:

Posted by: SoCalJustice at November 4, 2004 02:13 PM

Dear Posting Demo's,
If you want to be thought of as a viable political alternative, lose the vitriolic, self-righteous victimology. It continues to impede your self-assessment in the wake of a political defeat of historic proportions.

Posted by: davekatz at November 4, 2004 03:48 PM


We don't have such intense and bitter feuding. Think it's because we're all armed?

Well, we certainly are a polite society! ;) Maybe it's all the good food, too - it's hard to be a hater when you're stuffed from dim sum, BBQ, pho, or Frenchy's fried chicken down by UH... small world, huh? I'm over at the Medical Center, m'self.

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