(Hat tip: David Batlle via email.)

My first ever. You're an angel Michael.

And yet if you call the French venal backstabbing ingrateful scumbags for doing stuff like this, YOU are the one with the irrational problem.

Moonbat,

is there any remaining doubt as to whether the French are our allies? They aren't, that much is clear. At best they are adversaries, at worst our enemies.

Cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Had to say it. ;) Best national rip - evar!

Hey - you forgot about Poland!

I don't see where it says that France took a bribe. I see that it says that Hussein tried to get chummy with France, but don't see any mention that he was successful. In fact, it says that France had always planned to veto any resolution for war. I don't call that backstabbing, I call that someone who doesn't agree with our position.

So Moonbat, yes as of right now you are holding irrational views. If some evidence comes out of a bribe going down - something beyond one memo - then maybe I won't consider you an irrational wingnut.

And isn't that the same Tariq Aziz that proclaimed that the Americans weren't at the airport? Now that's credibility.

I like how the Bush administration is now using the report to flip-flop on the cause of the war. If President Bush can't make up his mind as to why we went to war, why should I trust him? Was it the WMDs? Was it that Saddam was a bad guy? Was it the oil-for-food stuff? If the latter is the case, as the President seemed to imply today, why aren't there tanks running up the Champs Elysses?

I think the whole thing was a misspelling. He meant to say we were going to invade Iran, but this administration has proven that once you make a mistake, run with it.

Michael, I wish you would spend a bit time thinking about the coerced and extorted part of his quote. In fact, the Iraq terrorists, learning lessons from successful Vietnames guerrilla terrorists of 35 years ago, plan on using coercion and extortion to win, to get (not quite force) the US to leave an unstable, undemocratic Iraq.

In my post on their strategy, http://tomgrey.motime.com/1097005306#351508,

The be-headings are part of their program of intimidation, against other Iraqis -- to show who the strong horse/ future winner is. [I no longer have any appetite for Highlander.]

PC thought police types are doing similar intimidation/ excommunication acts, as at Concordia U in Canada (suppress free speech by Israelis because pro-Palestinians might riot).

I support excommunication among voluntary groups. I think groups should have a clear dogma, with reasons for that position, and "members" of the group either agree with it, or not. If not, they should leave; or be excommunicated. I think the Catholic Church should start honestly excommunicating pro-abortion politicians.

Note that the Democratic Party already practices such PC excommunications with respect to pro-life politicians -- but they are not honest about naming it.

The Bush Doctrine, pro-Democracy or not, is the main message to the terrorists, of this election.

I'm glad you've decided on Bush (maybe YOU should start Bush-haters for Bush?), but I haven't heard your thoughts about the US election message to the terrorists. I think when you think about it, you'll prolly conclude THAT is the biggest reason to support Bush 04.

Hey guys, check out this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3715980.stm

:-) :-) :-)

MJT,

I doubt a single person in the Bush camp is surprised by this.

I doubt there is a single person in the KERRY camp who is surprised by this either. They're not stupid. Yet they've fashioned their entire campaign strategy around convincing the American people that the very same people who were in Saddam's pocket and to this day are undermining us will bail us out. These people are the "help" Kerry is talking about when he claims that "help is in the way."

How could the Democrats possibly make this argument in good faith?

You've made the hawkish case for Kerry.

You've made the liberal case for Bush.

I'd like to see you make the "good faith" case for Kerry's policy positions. Are you up to the task?

And if you choose to take up the task, don't start with the PRESUMPTION of good faith. Start with the known facts, then evaluate Kerry's policy proposals WRT to those facts. Then ask yourself if it is even POSSIBLE that John Kerry's policy positions are being made in good faith.

No WMD found, not even "WMD-program-related activities", just "intentions" and "guiding themes - but quick, change the subject, look here, seems there have been attempts to bribe "foreign activists", no evidence of any actual bribes changing hands, but it'll do until Nov 2.

novakant,

Isn't it a little simplistic to claim that if there no actual stockpiles of WMD's, that there was no cause for removing Saddam? Isn't the situation somewhat more "complex" and "nuanced?"

When did the left embrace "simplisme?" I thought you guys were the masters of complexity?

There are two competing narratives:

KERRY CAMP:

Bush said we invaded Iraq because of WMD. There were no WMD.

BUSH CAMP:

Kerry said we should have gotten the support of the French then and should get it now. Saddam was bribing the French to oppose us then and the French have no intention of helping us now.

We'll see which narrative is more convincing on Nov. 2.

When did the left embrace "simplisme?" I thought you guys were the masters of complexity?

HA,

the Left are veritable MASTERS of "simplisme". War never solved anything, they say. NEVER?

No WMD found, not even "WMD-program-related activities", just "intentions" and "guiding themes - but quick, change the subject,

Novakan,

what is the "subject"? That Kerry has to win this November?

These arguments really are silly. Kerry and Bush both thought the threat was real in Iraq. How soon we forget who was involved in the first WTC bombing. Kerry wasn't against the war til he seen he might gain some ground against Bush by opposing it. All the alleged goodwill people who protest the war could careless about America or Iraq or anybody else for that matter long as it hurts Bush. Never caring that they are hurting our soldiers while they hide behind "we are helping them because we want them to come home".Even if they decided to come home many would die before it could fully happen because these zealots in America would have successfully aided and abetted the enemy. John Kerry is an opportunistic coward and I believe if you seen his whole alleged war record you would know. All Vietnam vets were heroes but him. Any real soldier there would not have left his buddies because he got 3 minor wounds. He spits on our military daily and the zealots praise him. The zealots only pay lip service to our troops when they say they support them. If they really supported them they would Shut the F*** Up.

"How would he handle it? I’d like to know, but he will never tell us because he would have to yank one of his planks before he could do so."

Michael,

So much to say, but I'll keep it as short as I can. I am a conservative, but have found that I have clicked to your site the first thing every day since I found out about it from Jonah Goldberg about a year ago. You come, by and large, from a different perspective and I really do appreciate your usually measured, thoughtful, and well written opinions - definitely provide me with food for thought while crunching numbers through the day. BUT, I have seen your posts of late to be an interesting mix of the thoughtful posts that I look for (reasonably criticizing the candidates), but almost always with the caveat that you must still vote for Kerry. I know that it's difficult this season (Bush isn't exactly the second coming to me, either), but I just can't reconcile your normally well-written posts to quotes like the one above. What gives?

what's the subject?

lets see: they send this team of american weapons inspectors to Iraq after the war to find out what exactly? - bingo, to find out about Saddam's WMD, and that is what they did, the conclusion: there were none

why does this reflect badly on the Bush admin? because they said there were WMD and that they knew were they were and that we had to go to war because of this; they didn't simply err, which would have been bad enough, rather they claimed a degree of certainty which was simply not supported by the facts, i.e. they lied because they wanted this war no matter what the facts said

as far as nuance is concerned, I do have a rather nuanced position about deposing dictators, I'm not a pacifist and I'm not ruling out military action even though it should always be the last resort and used only in the case of self-defence or looming genocide, and to get even more nuanced I tell you that I'm no big fan of Chirac or TotalFinaElf either, but that doesn't have much to do with the problem at hand

I doubt there is a single person in the KERRY camp who is surprised by this either.

It amazes me how in this age of fact checking, Team Kerry is banking on a naive electorate.

Who here remembers NK saying that they had been cheating for five years (Do these people remember which way the alligator's mouth opens when it's time to eat the bigger number or is math a tool of hegemonic oppression like the Laws of Ineria, Gravity, and Thermodynamics), and who remembers last Thursday when Kerry aliuded to Bush being responsible for NK's cheating?

Who remembers the beaucoup des headlines on Total Fina Elf and the scamming between it and the French government, and who can remember who can remember anything about Oil for Food (now that it is also reported in the NYT, we can use that, can't we?)

My favorite from memory lane: Who remembers how the US was the sole source of weapons (if not the biggest supplier) to Iraq (oooooo how many times have I got that one waved in my face), and how many people remember how the Stark was hit with a Harpoon missile? ooops... sorry, it was an Exorcet... who makes them again?

And much much more.... now how much would you pay?

Then again, the more fashionable people around me don't seem to remember much of that at all, even when it's heard on NPR. And since they pride themselves on being enlightened and educated... I'm just an idjit. But at least I don't have the memory of a goldfish.

novakant,

the subject is that Saddam would still be in power if left to you, or John Kerry and his Frency "allies".

WMDs wasn't the only reason Saddam needed to go. But even if it was, the Deulfer Report was quite clear in stating that Saddam was trying to break the sanctions in order to restart his WMD program, and the French were playing along. You would have preferred to wait until Saddam had a fully developed nuke with a huge stockpile of nerve and bio weapons before intervening? That's lunacy.

I'm sorry, has anyone seen the criticisms of Bill Clinton for Operation Desert Fox in 1998? I guess Clinton lied since there wasn't any WMD production in Iraq post 1991 according to the report. Hmmmm... didn't Kerry support that?

Uh, Michael, according to AP Poland is also heavily implicated in the Oil-for-Food scandal. Not really surprising since their Iraq connection dates back to the old Comecon days and their fuel industry is still dominated by ex-Communists. I wish Bush supporters would quit pretending Poland is a useful ally, they do not have our backs the way the Brits and Australians do. I worked in Warsaw in spring of 2003, while many ordinary Poles still love America, the economic and cultural elite of Poland seem to be rushing to absorb German "sophisticated" attitudes toward the US as quickly as possible.

lets see: they send this team of american weapons inspectors to Iraq after the war to find out what exactly? - bingo, to find out about Saddam's
WMD, and that is what they did, the conclusion: there were none

You forget that the report also indicates that they had programs that were "chompin-at-the-bit" ready to go all out into development and production mode as soon as the sanctions were lifted... and the sactions were eroding -- fast. That part about eroding sanctions is something I definitely remember being discussed before the hurley burly.

Or that the Iraqis felt the need to show a tough face before her local enemies while hoping that the "international community" could be held off by you-know-what.

Like I said... memory like a goldfish... but then again... you probably only got your information form the news "reports" which seem to be very selective in what they divulge (indeed, I wonder if they have read it themselves).

To hold the report up and only point out what the media wants you to see is not a very good idea, especially given the overall content of the report and its ready accessability.

Not to worry: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you the reading assignment.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/dciwmd93004rpt-1.pdf

James Taranto has some page numbers marked (http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005726) but their rundown is the tip of the iceberg, based on what I'm reading.

I've been going through it bit by bit between writing, compiling and debugging yesturday and today, and it's a dense but lurid skim. Why the media isn't all over this like the Clinton testimony or the Hitler Diaries, is beyond me...

But then overall it isn't a suprise if you read the complete Kay report from earlier. If anything it is a firm bolstering of the premption doctrine and, specifically, for taking out Saddam at a time of the "global community's" choosing, not his.

Uh, Michael, according to AP Poland is also heavily implicated in the Oil-for-Food scandal. Not really surprising since their Iraq connection
dates back to the old Comecon days and their fuel industry is still
dominated by ex-Communists. I wish Bush supporters would quit
pretending Poland is a useful ally, they do not have our backs the way
the Brits and Australians do. I worked in Warsaw in spring of 2003, while
many ordinary Poles still love America, the economic and cultural elite of
Poland seem to be rushing to absorb German "sophisticated" attitudes
toward the US as quickly as possible.

I'm willing to give the Pole's a pass on that. As you indicated, they are emerging from being a semi-independant toady from their Soviet Satellite days (and recall before that they were a 100% non-country thanks to the Nazis and the Soviets). It takes time, as we're seeing in Iraq, to recover from systematic abuse at the national scale. Elite and forme Soviet holdovers asside, it takes time to ditch the old baggage. They're response to the "shut up" comment made by the French, is a very healthy sign, IMHO. And hey... one may argue that it's not illegal to take a bribe... just illegal to act on it! (just kidding -- a little)

Bill,

I wasn't talking about the Communist elite in Poland. I was referring to up and coming 20-40 year olds in Warsaw. They are becoming more like the Germans every day, and their integration into the EU is just going to speed up the process. There seems to be an assumption in America that Poland is one of our truest friends, but (and to be fair a big "but" given Putin's recent behavior) the longer they go without being threatened by Russia the more Poles will adopt the same snide anti-American attitudes so popular in Germany and France.

DaPope: I have seen your posts of late to be an interesting mix of the thoughtful posts that I look for (reasonably criticizing the candidates), but almost always with the caveat that you must still vote for Kerry.

I am not voting for Kerry. I never said I was voting for Kerry.

For a while I deliberately went undecided to see if I could talk myself into voting for Kerry. I have not been able to do so.

Most of my arguments (to myself) about voting for Kerry were laid out in this article. I found my "Liberal Case for Bush" to be more convincing.

Vanya,

I worked in Warsaw in spring of 2003, while many ordinary Poles still love America, the economic and cultural elite of Poland seem to be rushing to absorb German "sophisticated" attitudes toward the US as quickly as possible.

And exactly how does that make the Polish cultural elites any different from the Democratic elite? They're both cramming for the global test.

Until the Polish elite push through an actual policy change, I say God bless Poland! And if they do manage to push through an actual anti-American policy change, then I will say that the Poles can rot in the hell of dhimmitude with the Spaniards.

Bill, ignoring your annyoing attitude for a second, I will ask you: was Iraq an imminent threat? is David Kay a liar? did Donald "we know where they are" Rumsfeld speak the truth? are we going to invade countries based solely on the purported intentions of their leaders?

novakant,

so you're saying Saddam should have stayed in power because he wasn't an "imminent" threat. How do you get around the fact that Saddam's rape dungeons would still be in business if it was up to you and John Kerry?

novakant: Ignoring your naivite...

No the Iraqis were a pending threat. As clearly stated in the reports executive summary, it was going to be a more imminent threat once sanctions were released - and not soon after: As soon 1-2 years after the lifting of sanctions in some sections of the report depending on the particular weapons agent/system. We have no moral obligation to engage an opponent when he has a more ehnanced ability to engage (read: kill) us, or to export his production line. It is no more acceptable than not removing a tumor until the cancer metastatizes through the body or just to a vital, no-can-touch organ.

is David Kay a liar? Likely not. He worked with the data he had at the time which presented a quasi-neutralized threat ready go to gangbusters on WMD programs when he had the chance. And for me it was a very concincing case, and both reports bolster this view. And once that neturalizing force was removed, he would have been more of one. Did Rummy Lie? If he had the same faulty intelligence as did Kerry (who presumably didn't lie), the French (who presumably don't lie about anything) and the Iranians (who presumably didn't lie - atleast about that) did, likely not. Saddams goal was to play coy with his WMD capacity, that is not the fault of those who acted on the presumption that he had them. One may also ask you if you were a liar when you acted on the presumption that Santa and the ToothFairy were real because your parents said so. True, this childhood scenario is far far more benign but is based on the same principle.

Are we going to invade countries based solely on the purported intentions of their leaders? A point of debate currently on the table. Clearly, if an opponent can be neutralized before their intentions materialze with genuine sanctions that hold, so much the better. If not, we have one example of Iraq (convincing enough for Libya) and a limited spectrum of options for Iran and North Korea. None of them are attractice in the short run, but the prospect of intermittent "negotiations" over goodie$ and treat$ for North Korea, or Israel's status as a defendable nation-state with Iran, are likewise red ink on the cost-benefit sheet. And the latter two are unacceptable in the long run.

If you expect 100% fore- and hind-sight in your decision making, you will always be at the mercy of those who can conceal the facts from you. We cannot afford that in foreign policy or any other policy. What is more, if you expect 100% fore- and hind-sight to be possible without the aid of time travel or Frank Herbert novel drugs, you are not just a poor decision maker, you are bloody niave.

I for one am glad this option is now seriously on the table to counter those of "periodically limited" appeasment.

Michael,

Ok. I apologize, you really HAVEN'T ever said that you were going to be voting for Kerry. Perhaps you shouldn't be my first read in the morning, but only after a good dose of coffee. In looking back on your post archive I see some resignation and wishful thinking of what Kerry could/should be, but I misinterpreted it as apologetic support, which it really isn't. Actually, looking back on the archives, I find that you are remarkably fair to both.

I'll quit trying to read between the lines and just take it for what it is - damn, partisanship is difficult. :)

Cordially, Chris

David, the threat to the US was the major selling point of this war, humanitarian reasons were only put forth as a supporting argument. And if you want to make me feel bad about torture-rooms, please tell me: do you really feel comfortable with the fact that launching this war led to the deaths of more than 10.000 Iraqi civilians and 1000 mostly young US citizens?

Bill, I hold that war should always be the last resort, after all political and diplomatic means have failed. You seem to view war as a convenient extension of politics. I guess we have to agree to disagree on this point.

Bill, I hold that war should always be the last resort, after all political and diplomatic means have failed. You seem to view war as a convenient extension of politics. I guess we have to agree to disagree on this point.

War is not necessary in all cases where diplomacy has broken down or, as has been demonstrated, been bribed off the market, as Saddam has apparently done with France and other select UN units. Recall that Israel did not invade Iraq to take out its reactor.

But in any case, there is a point where you must recognize that the TAs for the Global Test are on the take. At that point, diplomacy becomes a stalling tactic for the country that's paying off, in this case, the Coalition of Cheese, Chockies and Total Fina Elf.

to novakant,

W specifically stated in the SOTUS the we can no longer wait for Iraq to become an 'imminent threat'... go look it up... WMD was only one of many reasons... see here in the congressional authorization for the use of force:
http://www.usembassy.it/file2002_10/alia/a2101002.htm

also, there are and were at least 20 justifications for the War in Iraq... see here:

http://qando.net/archives/002062.htm

and now that we know there weren’t any WMDs in Iraq, do the other reasons become less important???

Is it that hard to fathom that Saddam bluffed, the US called, & Saddam lost???
it would have been irresponsible NOT to call his bluff...
it would have been a disaster of Carterian proportions (or worse)...

and to MJT,

thank you for being one of the few places on the web where a disaffected pro-war Democrat that plans to vote for W can go for insightful commentary...
I read your stuff every day... always very good...

David, the threat to the US was the major selling point of this war, humanitarian reasons were only put forth as a supporting argument.

Novokant,

Your logic against this war is terribly flawed, and I'll explain to you why in detail if you care to hear it.

Why should Bush's "major selling point" make the humanitarian reasons any less important to you? Are you only a humanitarian when you feel that Bush didn't "lie" to you? And as soon as you feel Bush lied, do you stop caring about the suffering and injustice? Why do you allow Bush determine when you should feel compassion for injustice? Do you think the people released from Saddam's rape dungeons give two shits what Bush's major selling point was? They could care less whether Bush found WMDs because they're free now.

So let me restate my question; do you feel no sense of rejoicing that Saddam is gone? and do you feel no shame that he would still be there if it was left up to you?

And if you want to make me feel bad about torture-rooms, please tell me: do you really feel comfortable with the fact that launching this war led to the deaths of more than 10.000 Iraqi civilians and 1000 mostly young US citizens?

The Left was warning of a seige of Baghdad and 500,000 casualties on both sides. I'd say we have much to celebrate given the numbers turned out to be so much lower, don't you think?

Not to mention that a war to oust a nuclear Saddam would have cost perhaps millions of casualties onced Saddam restarted his nuclear program (see the Duelfer Report). So while I regret every single death of our GIs, and I cringe when I hear about the civilian casualties, I also feel relieft that many many MANY more didn't have to die because we solved the problem sooner rather than later.

In addition, are you counting the tens of thousands of Iraqis that Saddam would have killed anyway had he still been in power? He was killing his own people by the thousands, remember? Obviously not. Have you ever heard of the marsh Arabs? or the shiites? or the Kurds.

But I'll take it that your great concern for casualties (so-called concern) means that if it were up to you and John Kerry during WW2, Hitler would have remained in power as well because we know the civilian body count was in the MILLIONS; not a paltry ten thousand.

So, to reiterate, if it were up to you and John Kerry, Saddam's rape dungeons would still be in Business. And you Libs say you care about "justice"? Shame on you that your hatred of George Bush has caused you to stray so far from you ideals. Shame Shame Shame.

"...And if you want to make me feel bad about torture-rooms, please tell me: do you really feel comfortable with the fact that launching this war led to the deaths of more than 10.000 Iraqi civilians and 1000 mostly young US citizens?..."

~novakant

that would mean Iraqi deaths rates would have gone from 100,000+ (under SH) to 10K...

I'm comfortable with that...

"...But I'll take it that your great concern for casualties (so-called concern) means that if it were up to you and John Kerry during WW2, Hitler would have remained in power as well because we know the civilian body count was in the MILLIONS; not a paltry ten thousand..."

~David

I respectfully suggest that if it were up to novakant & JFK2, Hitler would have remained in power because... after all, Hitler didnt attack Pearl Harbor, the Japanese did... we'd have been takin our eye off the 'real' enemy...

Great Satan,

December 7, 1941 - Japan bombs Pearl Harbor and 7 hours later declares war on the United States.

December 8, 1941 - After a vote of 82-0 in the U.S. Senate, and 388-1 in the House, in favor of declaring war on Japan, Roosevelt signs the declaration of war.

December 11, 1941 - Germany and Italy declare war on the U.S. President Roosevelt calls an end to official U.S. neutrality in the war in Europe and declares war on Germany and Italy.

When was it that Iraq declared War on the United States?

Tosk

Tosk: When was it that Iraq declared War on the United States?

More than a decade ago.

>>Tosk: When was it that Iraq declared War on >>the United States?

>Michael: More than a decade ago.

In 1993? The first attack on the World Trade Center? Or when? Seriously, please clarify. Are you talking about the Gulf War? Certainly Iraq attacked Kuwait, but, while clearly an aggression and morally wrong, that attack was not directly an attack on the US. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence that Saddam didn't understand that the US would be enraged by such an attack. Please clarify for the sake of those of us who were not paying a lot of attention to Iraq in the 90s.

I could have laid out my views on humanitarian interventions in response to david's and gs's charges, but frankly the tone of their posts leads me to conclude that they are not interested in a sober discussion, so why bother. Still, if anyone should be interested, my take on the problem is summed up reasonably well here.

Novakant,

my tone was far milder than most posts you'll get on this blog, and this is a pretty mild blog as blogs go. If you have no response, then don't respond; but don't blame it on my "tone."

your great concern for casualties (so-called concern) means that if it were up to you and John Kerry during WW2, Hitler would have remained in power as well.

Have you ever heard of the marsh Arabs? or the shiites? or the Kurds.

And you Libs say you care about "justice"?Shame on you that your hatred of George Bush has caused you to stray so far from you ideals. Shame Shame Shame.

You are calling me (and everybody who opposed the war)an unprincipled, immoral and ignorant human being - so much for your mild tone.

Your self-righteousness is truly astounding.

Your self-righteousness is truly astounding

novakant,

it doesn't matter if I'm self-righteous, or anything you think about me. If you have enough time to insult me, then you have enough time to answer my questions. I'll take your non-responsiveness as the lack of a response.

Are you able to click on a link? As I said above this sums up my position pretty well and I'm not going to waste my time elaborating on it for you, since you already have concluded that I am a person with said negative attributes.

O'Toole's Commentary on Murphy's Law:
Murphy was an optimist.

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