October 03, 2004

Extraordinary Rendition

Extraordinary Rendition. That’s a euphemism for torture.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert wants to legalize it – sort of. He proposed a bill that would allow the United States to ship people off to totalitarian dungeons like Syria where torture is “legal” since we can’t do it ourselves on our own soil.

It’s a disgrace. Abu Ghraib sullied our reputation enough, as if it weren’t already dangerously bad to begin with. I was impressed by the fact that the vast majority of Americans choked when they found out what happened in the now-notorious Iraqi prison. And Dennis Hastert wants to crank this up even further?

The media is mostly ignoring this story, which is odd. I would think they would plaster this one all over the papers if they’re as liberal and partisan as they often appear. But we’re hardly hearing much about this. We should be, not because the story makes Dennis Hastert look bad in an election season but because Dennis Hastert is being bad period.

Please see Hilzoy and Katherine at Obsidian Wings for more.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at October 3, 2004 09:45 PM
Comments

I don't care if they torture terrorists because the lives that are saved by extracting that information are more important than the terrorists rights.

The 5th amendment was enacted to prevent confessions under torture, which was common back in the day. But this isn't torture to extract a confession of guilt. This is torture for the purpose of saving lives, perhaps thousands of lives.

Are you more moral because you refuse to dirty your hands even if it might allow another 9/11? That's a false morality.

Posted by: David at October 3, 2004 11:36 PM

David mostly beat me to it -- but torture IS bad, like MJT says, yet humane treatment of terrorists, allowing them to live while their plans to kill are actualized, is also terrible.

Most Americans have LONG been willing to accept the benefits of somebody else "getting their hands dirty". Look at the number of Dems and Reps who have illegals housekeepers/ gardeners.

The Reps are not proud of this, but they want that info. The Dems don't want to touch this, too strongly -- because they don't want the blame for NOT getting the info that could save American lives (plus they know Amnesty and HRW will be on it, so they don't have to, so much).

What to do when the police/ military "know" they have terrorist killers, but not enough evidence to prove anything, but are sure (99%? 60%?) that if released the killers will kill?

Yes, certainly follow the British interrogation model: videotape, ask repetitive sounding questions, go back and forth about what happened, when, with whom; check with others, compare, look for differences, where the lies don't hold up.

This is the right, non-torture, LONG TERM way to do it. 4-10 years, nobody knows the minimum time to be effective, but it's clearly not just months. But you, Michael, like most Americans, will be upset, even calling Bush incompetent, if he doesn't get results fast enough.

It might be true he is incompetent, has made mistakes-- but there has certainly not been enough time to know. It might also be true that his so-called mistakes were all in consistently giving Iraqi people more freedom, including more freedom to be bad -- and that this was the optimal way for Iraqis to "own" the Iraqification of the pro-Iraq anti-terrorist war. Again, too soon to know.

And yes, Bush is not communicating this as well as he could.

Posted by: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad at October 4, 2004 12:41 AM

Absolutely agree with the two above.

It is difficult for even the most bleeding hearts to get too worked up over potential bombers and beheaders being deported back to their barbaric homelands.

Americans - MOST Americans - choked on Abu Ghraib because they felt that American soldiers had no business behaving the way our enemy behaves, and because they were ashamed and embarrassed that the actions of a few sullied the reputation of the whole military. Most were relatively unconcerned with the individual Islamist terrorists who had to wear panties on the their heads.

THe MSM correctly senses that this story would help the GOP - most voters want potential terrorists out of the US, and really don't give a shit where we send them.

Posted by: Priscilla at October 4, 2004 03:43 AM

Ignoring the moral and humanitarian question, torture is bad simply because it is unreliable. If you torture someone long enough and hard enough they will do whatever they can to make the torture end, including telling you what they think you want to know.

That it is reprehensible on moral, ethical, and humanitarian grounds should be enough, but torture is the cheap, lazy, and least effective way to gain intelligence. It should be banned.

Posted by: too many steves at October 4, 2004 05:07 AM

Maybe its just another way to threaten prisoners: "Tell us what we want to know or we'll send you back to (insert name of torture-loving-country)". Or something like that.

Posted by: Eric Blair at October 4, 2004 06:22 AM

Eric,

Yeah, we thought that Congress giving Bush the power to go to war was going to be used as a 'or else' too.

;-)

Now, my opinion.

If we're going to use torture, I recommend we also use psychological torture, lets take some of those bastards in Guantanamo, put them on National TV and lop off their heads.

If you can't beat them, join them.

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Posted by: Ratatosk at October 4, 2004 07:01 AM
Maybe its just another way to threaten prisoners: "Tell us what we want to know or we'll send you back to (insert name of torture-loving-country)". Or something like that.

I understand that Marseilles had a pretty nasty hell hole that got subdued coverage. When Kerry makes everything hunky-dory with the French (one of the TA charged with grading the "Global Test"), we can send them there and say good riddance.

On related note, I don't know if I go for his arguments but Alan Dershowitz has argued for "coercive" techniques in life and death scenarios. He makes a compelling argument, but I'm not sure I'll bite the worm he puts on the hook.

Posted by: Bill at October 4, 2004 08:44 AM

If we're going to use torture, I recommend we also use psychological torture, lets take some of those bastards in Guantanamo, put them on National TV and lop off their heads.

Tosk,

The purpose of torturing terrorists is to save innocent lives, which is a moral purpose; it's not for the purpose of terrorizing them, unless that would save innocent lives.

It would not servet that purpose if we did it to take revenge, and it wouldn't save any lives to "join them" in their atrocities.

And FYI, our constitutional protections don't apply to non-U.S. citizens. We apply other standards of fair play, and deporting terrorists is fair play as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by: David at October 4, 2004 09:15 AM

David,

Every time you say it's cool to torture terrorists, try to remember to say it's cool to torture suspects. Because that's what you're talking about here. Suspects. I guess the fact that it's both illegal and evil doesn't register, either.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at October 4, 2004 09:19 AM

Michael,

I understand that danger. But I'm assuming there's ample prima facie evidence when they make that decision. Otherwise, obviously not.

But remember, the war on terror is no longer law enforcement, but WAR. We didn't have the required "evidence" to hold Bin Laden either; now look at us.

Posted by: David at October 4, 2004 09:22 AM

I'm with MJT on this.

I'm not neccessarily opposed to coercion, but this is just as much about principle as it is about safety. America must be committed to humane (as possible) interrogation and coercion efforts as a matter of liberty and principle. That's what we stand for. Trying to open up loopholes so that we can send suspects to other barbaric nations so that they can use sadistic, inhumane measures that would never be tolerated here, to extract information is an American failure on Moral, Idealogical and Principled grounds.

If we fail to champion American principles and morality of Western culture during this, our tumultuous battle with the forces of fascism, then we are just another nation-state.

Posted by: Epitome at October 4, 2004 09:25 AM

America must be committed to humane (as possible) interrogation and coercion efforts as a matter of liberty and principle.

epitome,

I'm in favor of humane interrogation too, if it works. If it doesn't, I'm in favor of other methods.

If we fail to champion American principles and morality of Western culture during this, our tumultuous battle with the forces of fascism, then we are just another nation-state.

We did what it took to beat the Nazis; even firebombed their cities, killing tens of thousands of non-combatants. We nuked two Japanese cities. Torturing terrorists doesn't even scratch that.

I'm in favor of saving American lives, not platitudes.

Posted by: David at October 4, 2004 09:32 AM

Physical torture is unreliable. Hence, it shouldn't be used. I think that is the only real point here. That, plus how sure you are of a person being a terrorist.

Posted by: FH at October 4, 2004 09:35 AM

"We did what it took to beat the Nazis; even firebombed their cities, killing tens of thousands of non-combatants. We nuked two Japanese cities. Torturing terrorists doesn't even scratch that."

That's based on the assessment that firebombings that killed thousands of civiliians and the nuclear strikes were what was neccessary to win those wars. I would disagree, especially in the case of nuking Japan.

"I'm in favor of saving American lives, not platitudes."

You as an American may not be concerned with upholding American 'platitudes', for that I feel sorry for you. I, as an American, behind the Iraqis' noble efforts to build a democratic nation in a sea of islamic terror, recognize that this battle is just as much if not moreso about principles, and the infamous 'clash of civilizations' than provisional pragmatism only concerned with 'saving American lives' with no regard for moral or idealogical cost. In fact regarding anything above provisional pragmatism as 'platitudes' is indeed disheartening.

Posted by: Epitome at October 4, 2004 09:49 AM

You as an American may not be concerned with upholding American 'platitudes', for that I feel sorry for you.

Epitome,

Don't feel sorry for me; feel sorry for our enemies. I want them to fear us.

You're welcome to disagree with Dresden and Nagasaki. You still live in a free country despite the extreme measures we took in WW2. And our democracy survived intact because we won, despite those extreme tactics. You're free, and speaking English, not German, because of all those people you "feel sorry for" who did very unpleasant things to destroy our enemies. Torturing terrorist won't be any worse I can assure you.

Platitudes didn't win WW2, and they won't win the battle for Iraq. Falujah and Najaf are still held by insurgents because of your go it easy way of thinking.

Posted by: David at October 4, 2004 09:59 AM

David,

If we are going to be OK with torture, then we should be fine with terror as well, for one is a short step from the other.

I am all for it. If we are truly going to go down that path of "We must SAVE all Americans, by any means necessary", then use 'Any Means'. Don't go halfway, for halfway means we're no longer the idealist nation of free men, but we aren't sucessfully anything else... we'd be a lukewarm mouthfull of water. Pitooeee

While we're at it, we might as well start torturing any American citizens which we believe are associated with terrorists. After all, if it will save American lives, we should be OK with torturing them, right?

I think it would also be a good idea to set up a 1-800-Get-Them phone line where neighbors, co-workers, teachers, students, etc can call in and report their fellow citizens who may be engaged in terrorist activity. If it saves American Lives, it Must Be OK!

Tosk

Posted by: tosk at October 4, 2004 10:03 AM

Tosk,

we have constitutional restrictions to uphold, so your hypotheticals about torturing U.S. citizens is moot. Those constitutional protections don't apply to enemy combatants and certainly not to terrorists. Not to mention "going one step further" and resorting to "terror" would not save anybody's life.

Posted by: David at October 4, 2004 10:08 AM

David,

I'm sure we can fix those pesky restrictions in the next version of the PATRIOTACT.

and resorting to "terror" would not save anybody's life.

Sure it would help... After all, isn't that the plan in Iraq? We beat the shit out of Iraq and scare Iran, Lybia, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and all those other rogue states into doing our will... right? Thats how this 'pre-emption' is supposed to work, isn't it?

How better to ward off potential terrorists then loping the heads off of major terrorist suspects?

Tosk

Posted by: tosk at October 4, 2004 10:13 AM

Tosk,

so let's disband the military and disarm our cops because we know the logical conclusion to using violence of any kind will be torturing U.S. citizens and nuking NKorea. I mean, if we're willing to kill our enemies, eventually we'd also be willing to turn those guns on our own citizens!

That's pretty much what your argumentation amounts to. Unprovable hypotheticals and logical conclusions with no logic.

Posted by: David at October 4, 2004 10:19 AM

Those constitutional protections don't apply to enemy combatants and certainly not to terrorists.

Perhaps you need to read the Convention Against Torture (ratified by the US) and the Torture Statute. You might also want to consider the 8th Amendment to the Constitution, Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution.

It's not just a good idea; it's the law.

Posted by: Randy Paul at October 4, 2004 11:02 AM

David,

What in the hell are you talking about?

As an aside, I'd be more than happy to allot every American a cache of assult weapons and disband the police and millitary. At that point I believe that I should utilize my charisma to set myself up as King of Ohio and build a millitia out of redneck farmers with shotguns and rifles.

My wife will be armed with her trusty slingshot and I'll have my peashooter. No one can stop us!!!

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Posted by: D Clyde at October 4, 2004 11:15 AM

Randy,

Amendment 8 talks about cruel and unusual punishment; interrogation isn't a punishment. And like I said, it doesn't apply to non-U.S. citizens in any case, just as your constitutional right to vote doesn't. But that's a moot case anyway, because we're talking about deportation, not torture at the hands of U.S. intelligence.

Re the Convention Against Torture, we've signed it, therefore we can't do it. But that doesn't stop us from deporting them to their home countries where the their country's intelligence agencies can more adequately deal with them.

Legally, we're homefree. This is about the morality of the issue however, and I've already stated my case.

Posted by: David at October 4, 2004 12:30 PM

David, you're making incorrect arguments:

1) The Cruel and unusual punishment clause applies to non-citizens, as does the due process clause and most of the bill of rights. However, you are correct that it only applies on U.S. soil.

2) The Convention Against Torture says that:
"Article 3
No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights."

Posted by: Katherine at October 4, 2004 04:47 PM

Katherine,

Thanks. You've saved me some copying and pasting!

David,

As I said, perhaps you should actually read the Convention Against Torture before you comment on it. As Katherine pointed out, it's clear and explicit: you cannot deport people to countries where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture. What part of that do you not understand? It's against the law.

Posted by: Randy Paul at October 4, 2004 05:23 PM

So not only is it morally wrong, it's legally wrong as well!

2 cheers for American values.

Posted by: Epitome at October 4, 2004 05:51 PM

Yeah, we thought that Congress giving Bush the power to go to war was going to be used as a 'or else' too.

I certainly didn't think that. Once the Afghanistan campaign had been successful--wildly successful if you consider what all the nay-sayers were predicting, it was obvious that Iraq was going to be next. Lots of unfinished business there.

Go back to your Blavatsky. Heh.

Posted by: Eric Blair at October 4, 2004 07:53 PM

There's no need to deport people to be tortured.

And there's no need to have laws to allow torture.

Here's the right way to do it: Torture is illegal and we don't do loopholes to make it legal.

If you are on the spot and you have a suspected terrorist (or other suspected criminal) where getting information quickly is urgent to protect innocent or righteous lives, and in your judgement you have no better method to get that information, you should go ahead and do illegal torture. Videotape it, if you have the resources to do that. Put it in the official record what you're doing. Get whatever results you get. And be ready to stand trial.

If it's important enough to torture a suspect for, it's important enough to stand trial and maybe take your punishment. If you aren't sure enough to put your career and freedom on the line, then don't do it.

If the President decides that you did the right thing he can pardon you. We don't need to change the laws for it. We only need to change the laws if we expect it to happen so often that the President doesn't have time to review the cases.

Torture should be illegal. It should be rare. We don't need to mess with the laws about it.

The same rules apply to civilians. If you capture a suspected terrorist, and you are sure he's doing a terrorist act and there isn't time to get the authorities in to interrogate him, you can torture him on the spot. If possible get a cell phone going to the police or whoever you can reach, and get the info to them as fast as possible, preferably straight from the victim. The recording will be part of the case against you. If you're right maybe you won't even go to trial, or you won't be convicted or sentence deferred or you'll be pardoned. If you're wrong.... But if you're sure, it's your duty to accept whatever consequences come to you personally when you torture somebody to protect the innocent.

Posted by: J Thomas at October 4, 2004 08:50 PM

Hmm. Michael makes a comment about torture. Will the usual suspects instinctually defend the use of it? Yep. Big surprise, there.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at October 5, 2004 12:13 AM

It's against the law.

Randy,

it's against the law, until we change the law; that's the whole point of Hastert's bill.

Posted by: David at October 5, 2004 02:20 PM

David,

You wrote the following:

But that doesn't stop us from deporting them to their home countries where the their country's intelligence agencies can more adequately deal with them.

I was merely pointing out that you are wrong.

Posted by: Randy Paul at October 5, 2004 03:56 PM

J Thomas,

Well said, Sir. Personal Responsibility is far too often forgotten.

Tosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at October 6, 2004 07:15 AM

Randy,

yes I was wrong on the specifics of the Convention against Torture, not on the morality or legality of Hastert's bill.

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