September 28, 2004
The President of Everybody
Marc Danziger, aka Armed Liberal, still doesn’t know which way to jump in this election. (He’s the Armed Centrist!) That makes it a bit easier for him in these days of hyper-polarization to say he’ll accept the election of either one of these mooks. I know it’s fun for some people to hunker down in their respective partisan trenches and fire off mortars at the Treasonous Liberals and the Imperialist Right. Still, take a break for five minutes and read Marc’s heartfelt plea for national unity. I promise it won’t hurt.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at September 28, 2004 03:55 PMAnd on that note, I think that Dante's comment on those who would not pick sides is relevant. From Canto III of The Inferno:
There sighs, complaints, and ululations loud
Resounded through the air without a star,
Whence I, at the beginning, wept thereat.
Languages diverse, horrible dialects,
Accents of anger, words of agony,
And voices high and hoarse, with sound of hands,
Made up a tumult that goes whirling on
For ever in that air for ever black,
Even as the sand doth, when the whirlwind breathes.
And I, who had my head with horror bound,
Said: "Master, what is this which now I hear?
What folk is this, which seems by pain so vanquished?"
And he to me: "This miserable mode
Maintain the melancholy souls of those
Who lived withouten infamy or praise.
Commingled are they with that caitiff choir
Of Angels, who have not rebellious been,
Nor faithful were to God, but were for self.
The heavens expelled them, not to be less fair;
Nor them the nethermore abyss receives,
For glory none the damned would have from them."
I just wish the Kossites and Atriites thought this way. The first president I remember is Richard Nixon. He, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan George HW Bush, Bill Clinton and W have ALL been my Presidents. If Kerry wins, I'll say the same prayer I say every four years "God, make this man our greatest President."
Just because I'll vote for W doesn't mean I wish to see Kerry fail. Nation first, party second.
Posted by: spc67 at September 28, 2004 04:15 PMHey, I never said I wasn;t going to make up my mind, just that I see a lot that's unattractive to me in each candidate, and specifically in the post linked, that the issue of the losing side denying the legitimacy of the winner is probably more important to me than whoever wins.
I'll vote for somebody...and I'll probably make up my mind before Nov 2, and tell the world about it, as if it matters.
A.L.
Posted by: Armed Liberal at September 28, 2004 04:27 PMHow come Liberals are 'centrist', and conservatives are 'moderate'.
Posted by: David at September 28, 2004 04:46 PMI'm pretty vehemently anti-Kerry, but if he's elected I promise you that I'll start praying I was wrong about him.
And if he turns out to be a good President, I'll be thankful. (Oddly enough, I think we've had a string of pretty good Presidents starting with Reagan. There's plenty about each that could have been better, but we've certainly had worse runs of luck).
I think a good rule of thumb is "Criticize, don't demonize."
Mr. Cooper, if you're reading this, your article on Wicked Problems was excellent as well.
Posted by: Mark Poling at September 28, 2004 04:51 PMSorry Michael,
I don't see where his link to Blackfive supports his arguments. I strongly suspect Blackfive will go for Bush, likewise, I think it unlikely Drum will go for anyone but Kerry. I think you guys are just scared of Republicans.
Posted by: chuck at September 28, 2004 04:52 PMDavid,
I think of a centrist as someone who can go either way, Democrat or Republican, whereas a moderate is someone who is consistently on one side but is not an extremist about it.
To qualify as a centrist you can't be a liberal or a conservative. But you can be a moderate liberal (see Matthew Yglesias) just as you can be a moderate conservative (see David Brooks.)
You can also think about it this way: a moderate is in some ways the opposite of a radical. And yet there are people who are radical centrists. Christopher Hitchens, for example. No one familiar with Hitchens would call him a moderate, but he is a centrist these days.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 28, 2004 04:53 PMMark,
Cooper didn't write "Wicked Problems." Armed Liberal did.
Chuck,
I think you missed A.L.'s point about Blackfive and Kevin Drum. His point is that he is on the same "team" as both hawks and doves, liberals and conservatives, and that's because we're all Americans.
As far as being "afraid of Republicans," yes I think that's true (at least for me) to a point. I'm not afraid of McCain or Rudy or Arnold. I would vote for them with enthusiasm at this point. The kind of Republicans I really can't stand are Tom DeLay, James Dobson, and the rest of that crowd. I forget who it was who put that ad on TV saying the Democratic Party wants to ban the Bible, but let's just say I am not able to do business with such people.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 28, 2004 04:59 PMMichael,
Hmm..., I think you are right about AL's meaning.
Posted by: chuck at September 28, 2004 05:09 PMMichael, you know too many Mar[c,k]s.
Sorry Armed Liberal, a.k.a. Marc Danziger. Hope things are going well at Spirit of America.
Posted by: Mark Poling at September 28, 2004 05:09 PMMichael,
Your explanation makes sense if you're saying that the term "centrist" isn't applied to Libs exclusively. But for some reason I always associate that term with Libs. Maybe it's just me.
And I just haven't heard someone called a "moderate Liberal", but I always hear that about conservatives, as in 'moderate conservative'.
I feel sorry for your friend Marc Danziger. He actually thinks Libs and conservatives, doves and hawks, are playing on the same team. They aren't, and he should know better. The differences aren't merely political, but they go to the core of ones being. We almost literally live on different planets. Those differences aren't ones we can agree to disagree on and go our happy way. Both sides are trying to make this country in their image. So there cannot be a compromise. We live in the same geography, but our sense of country and nation could not be more different. I don't want my kids to grow up in their world, and they don't want their kids to grow up in mine. It's as simple as that. We might as well be Israelis and palestinians. I see no compromise with the Left, only victory against them. Leftism needs to be stamped out, just as they wish for conservatism to be stamped out. Neither side will have it any other way. It's a death struggle as far as I'm concerned; and why I even bother to argue with these Lefties I don't know. Sometimes they make the occassional good point, and it's fun I guess.
Posted by: David at September 28, 2004 05:18 PMDavid,
It may look like a death struggle for you. But it isn't for me and Marc. And it isn't really for you, either. The death struggle is against people who actually want to kill all of us. In the real world of American politics, liberals win some arguments and conservatives win others. We all live with the results, and have done so with much success for most - though not all - of our history.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 28, 2004 05:40 PMA.L. is asking us to stop attacking each other, to rally behind our president no matter what? What’s wrong with him? How un-American!
/sarcasm
After months of fence sitting, I’ve finally decided to vote for Bush, but despite their faults, Democrats are not the enemy. Partisanship drove me crazy when Clinton was President (yes, I voted for him) and it’s driving me crazy now – this isn’t helping us fight terrorism.
The only thing people seem to agree on is that the choice is between the bad candidate and the worse candidate. I guess that’s something..
Posted by: mary at September 28, 2004 05:42 PMI just feel that that resistance in Iraq is our battle too and we have to support it.
Michael,
that's a quote from the Leftwing Lunatic Arundhati Roy. You really think she doesn't see it as a death struggle?
I'm not gleeful about it Michael. I don't like it anymore than you do. I wish it were true that it still meant something to be an American; especially now that I've recently come to embrace love of country. Most especially now. But I just don't see it anymore when I listen to people like her, and those that follow her.
You've distanced yourself from the Left, but I wonder if you've fully realized exactly why. I don't think there's yet enough distance between you and them. You're not yet an outsider looking in.
In time, in time.
Posted by: David at September 28, 2004 06:17 PMIt's no surprise that most people see the choice as a bad candidate and a worse candidate. When both candidates face $100 million attack campaigns etc. they're both bound to look pretty bad.
Another point -- there are so many factions and ideologies within each party that it's foolish to see the entire opposing party as the Enemy. McCain is not DeLay, McKinney is not Lieberman, etc. Ditto for liberal and conservative movements.
Gerrymandering is really screwing our system of government. Hurray for Ahnuld, who's fighting to stop gerrymandering in California.
Posted by: Oberon at September 28, 2004 06:22 PMDavid,
Arundhati Roy is not an American. She's Indian. I realize she has fans in this country. I made that point in the post above. But she's on the fringe. Hillary Clinton isn't supplying blurbs for the back of her books.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 28, 2004 06:23 PMMichael,
you're in denial. If I had replaced her name with Michael Moore's you wouldn't have noticed the difference. Minutemen? hello?
Posted by: David at September 28, 2004 06:34 PMI actually just posted something very similar on my own blog:
http://www.biocom-jp.com/ee/tn/weblog/comments/cognitive_dissonance/
Posted by: Zachary Braverman at September 28, 2004 06:40 PMLet's see,
Michael Moore thought the attack on the world trade center was a mistake because NY wasn't a Republican state. Michael, some of these people are on the other side. I don't regard them as fellow Americans, it is a mini civil war, and they are on the wrong side as far as I am concerned.
By the by, can you say that some of your best friends are Republican?
Posted by: chuck at September 28, 2004 07:42 PMChuck: By the by, can you say that some of your best friends are Republican?
Most of my close friends are Democrats, but a few are Republicans. (I live in a very liberal place.) I've always had friends who were Republicans. I have never ever cared about a person's voter registration when making friends. It is completely irrelevant to me. I could not be friends with a person like Arundhati Roy (see the post above) but she is in no way a Democrat. She isn't even American.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 28, 2004 07:46 PMI could not be friends with a person like Arundhati Roy (see the post above) but she is in no way a Democrat. She isn't even American.
Michael,
again you mention that she's not American, as if that makes one lick of difference. Who do you suppose is buying her books? Why does she publish them in english? sell them here in AMERICA? sells them right down the street from where you live?
The same people buying that disgusting book rent Farenheit 9/11; and Michael Moore was a guest of honor during the Dem convention. Is Hilary a traitor? No, maybe not. But she consorts with them, she panders to them and gives them credibility.
Do you see the Right pandering to enemies of this country?
And to reiterate, it makes not one whit of difference that Roy is Indian. Her audience is a willing American one.
Posted by: David at September 28, 2004 08:18 PMDavid writes: Do you see the Right pandering to enemies of this country?
I guess it depends how you define "enemy of this country." Personally, I see some of them actively advocating on our enemies' behalf.
Here's a list:
James Baker
Grover Norquist
John Sununu
Pete McCloskey
Paul Findley
The latter two are part of the fringe right-wing freakshow (including the likes of Pat Buchanan, Justin Raimondo and Charley Reese) who give as much comfort to our enemies as the far-leftists.
And out of respect, I've left the the Presidents Bush off that list, but since Jim Baker's on the list, well, let's just say he's as close a family friend as Prince Bandar, if not closer.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 28, 2004 08:29 PMSoCal,
you place the House of Saud alongside Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi? I don't, not even close.
Posted by: David at September 28, 2004 08:41 PMDavid,
Who do you think spawned the likes of Osama and Zarqawi?
What do you think the Wahabbis are teaching in their madrassas at home and at their Saudi-funded ones abroad?
Have a read.
What do you think are in their text books, and said in their mosques, about the West, Jews, Christians and America?
Who do you think funds most of the terrorism around the world?
So to answer your question: Yes.
When Crown Prince Abdullah, after a spate of al-Qaida terrorist attacks on mostly Western interests in Riyadh and Jeddah, gives a press conference where he says he's 95% sure that Zionism is behind the terrorism - yes, the House of Saud is just as bad, because they are teaching this hateful, murderous ideology, and obviously they've tricked some otherwise intelligent people into thinking they aren't that bad, which is scary.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 28, 2004 08:50 PMHrmmm, I say things like that... and I just get billed as a silly squirrel. He gets to be an armed liberal.
However, thanks to my good friend Mark Polling, I can be an Armed Squirrel:
http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/002823.html
Ah-Ha!
AS (Armed Squirrel)
Posted by: Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord at September 28, 2004 08:51 PMAnd David, even if you don't put the House of Saud in the same league as Osama and Zarqawi, that doesn't mean they aren't also our enemy. I've read a lot about the Saudis, and I feel they - more than anyone else - are completely responsible for the jihadist/terrorist mindset around the globe, as they fund the most virulent madrassas around the world and imbue the imams/students with a jihadist mindset, not to mention fund many terrorist groups. That's the Wahabbi way.
And there are powerful interests on the right of America that lobby for them and advocate for them, every day.
So at best, the "right's" cozy enemies aren't as bad as the "left's."
How comforting.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 28, 2004 09:00 PMYou know, I don't think the whole "cozy enemies" phenomenon is a Left or Right thing. It's on both the Left and the Right, in the various factions of "pacifism" and "realpolitik". The Cultural Relativists and the Kissingerites are equally at fault.
The "our son-of-a-bitch" school of foreign policy needs to be purged from both political parties. Unfortunately, neither party seems very serious about changing their ways. For starters, in terms of reaching energy independence (which has to be the first step), the Democrats won't give up bitching about the environment and the Republicans care more about the size of their SUVs. It's thoroughly depressing.
Posted by: Grant McEntire at September 28, 2004 09:53 PMSoCalJustice is correct. Both the right and the left have their goons. Both are to be eschewed.
Posted by: FH at September 28, 2004 09:59 PMA Quixotic moment:
Back in the 1911, a decision was made to fix the number of members of the House of Representatives at 435. Since then the population of the United States has grown from 92M to 293M.
What that means is you're 1/3 as likely to personally know your representative as you were back in 1910.
And of course, that's an extremely rough estimate. My guess is that using network heuristics, the effects are even more devastaing, never mind the distorting influences of media access and PAC donations.
So I propose tripling the number of members of the House of Representatives.
Benefits:
* Decreased effectiveness of Gerrymandering.
* Increased responsibility to local constituents.
* Increased influence of large states on the Electoral College (but still in concordance with Constitutional principals).
Costs:
* A much bigger congress.
* More CSPAN coverage of interminable debates.
With current technology, the idea that Representatives wouldn't be able to keep up with the additional "debate" produced by the new rank-and-file is laughable. It seems to me that today party leadership sets the agenda, and underfunder junior members follow. In a radically expanded House, the members would have less incentive to toe the line, because they'd be less susceptable to Party blackmail.
I've been smacked down before for this idea, but especially in the New Media age, I think it's still worth considering.
Posted by: Mark Poling at September 28, 2004 10:02 PMBut back on topic, demonizing is bad for democracy, period. Bush is doing the best he can, as did Clinton, as did Bush (41) as did Clinton, as did Reagan, etc., etc., etc.
I don't believe we've ever had a Manchurian Candidate, and I don't think we ever will. We have had real screwups in the White House, but separation of powers has served us well so far.
Don't get too bent out of shape, dudes.
Posted by: Mark Poling at September 28, 2004 10:15 PMDavid: you place the House of Saud alongside Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi? I don't, not even close.
I do. If it were up to me, regime-change in Saudi Arabia would be the explicit policy of the United States government. That is not to say I want to invade the country at this time. But if we did I'd carve it up into pieces and take Mecca and Medina away from the Wahhabis forever.
Yes, I'm serious.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 28, 2004 10:24 PMMichael, I don't agree.
Unless you know more than I do, I think doing anything to disrupt the pilgrimage routes would be foolish. Give the Wahabis control of the Holy sites, if you want to start divying up the holy lands. Take away the oil fields instead.
I have a feeling I know which would hurt them more.
Posted by: Mark Poling at September 28, 2004 10:36 PMGood point, Mark (about taking the oil fields away from the Wahhabis. While deep down I agree with Michael and would like to get rid of them altogether, the main reason they are such a cancer on the world is their access to vast oil wealth. This gives them a powerful influence which suffocates any attempts by more moderate Muslims to assert a more peaceful way for their religion. The war on terror CANNOT be won until their power is broken.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at September 29, 2004 12:12 AMMark and Gary,
Yes, take away the Wahhabi's oil, too. That part of the country is inhabited by Shi'ites. Let 'em have the oil and let the Wahhabis live in tents in the desert where they belong. Riyadh is in the Terror War what Moscow was in the Cold War.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at September 29, 2004 12:40 AM"Riyadh is in the Terror War what Moscow was in the Cold War."
And in this election we have one candidate who counts one of the most prominent members of the "politburo" as nearly part of his family.
Nuff said?
Posted by: Tano at September 29, 2004 08:58 AMSoCal, Michael,
Here's my read on the Sauds. the House of Saud is quite large, numbering in the thousands. They have a lot of cash, and they're wahabi. Much of that cash goes to fostering wahabiism. But it's a mistake to say that the Saud bigwigs are behind the terrorism or even encourage it.
The House of Saud's interest are tied to the West, yet they are under pressure internally from their wahabi street, and elements of their own house. If anything, the Saud leadership is having trouble because they're trying to put a lid on their terrorist problem. In the past, they've been guilty of neglect, but right now there's a big crackdown on AQ in the kingdom.
Are they anti-semitic scum? Of course they are, and that's enough morally to put them out of business as far as I'm concerned. And I can understand how you, SoCal, as someone who's primarily concerned with Israel would like the Sauds and everybody in Saudi wiped out, but I'm realistic, and you're not.
The Saud leadership is a bulwark against the most extremist elements of the kingdom.
Posted by: David at September 29, 2004 10:40 AMDavid,
I gotta say, I flat out disagree with you. I also disagree with your characterization that I'm "primarily concerned with Israel." I support Israel, and I value our relationship with them, but I am primarily concerned with the U.S.A. and the West in general.
Do you know who Prince Najaf is?
He's number two in line to the throne, and currently the Saudi Interior Minister. And he's as jihadi as they come.
The Saudis have been playing a double game. Yes, they need our money and our consumership, but they have been fomenting an ideology that's been demonizing the West, America and Christians (not just Jews and Israel) for generations. They've also been funding al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups around the world for years. Only recently has it come back to haunt them.
MJT agrees with me - in fact, he's more hawkish against the Saudis than I am - and you think he's "primarily concerned with Israel" too?
Come on, that's just not realistic. He just happens to know the truth about Saudi Arabia and Wahabbism.
15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. UBL is a Saudi. His financiers are largely Saudi. The second most powerful non-brain dead Saudi Royal supports al Qaeda.
Take a look at these two stories, one published by the Council on Foreign Relations and the other by the Wall Street Journal:
It's too long to quote, but basically Prince Najaf and the Clerical establishment support al-Qaeda.
List of Early al Qaeda Donors Points to Saudi Elite, Charities
WASHINGTON -- A cache of al Qaeda documents seized last year by U.S. agents in Bosnia identifies some of Saudi Arabia's richest and most influential families as among the first financial supporters of Osama bin Laden, and shows how al Qaeda used charitable arms of the Saudi government. An account of the roots of al Qaeda found on a computer used by a suspected al Qaeda front group contains a 1988 memorandum listing 20 Saudi financial backers of Mr. bin Laden -- "the Golden Chain," as the bin Laden organization called it. The list includes the families of three billionaire Saudi banking magnates, several top industrialists and at least one former government minister.Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 29, 2004 01:44 PM
David,
I forgot to add this.
You write: The Saud leadership is a bulwark against the most extremist elements of the kingdom.
To the extent there is any truth to that statement - and there isn't very much - it is only a very recent phenomenon (meaning just as recent as this year). And Najaf and Abdullah are battling on that front as well. Abudllah's had some victories, but he still refuses to lay the blame for the extremism in the proper place - which signals really only half-hearted support for plugging the bottle on the monster his family has created.
And even while some elements of the House of Saud are trying to stop their extremist elements at home from killing Westerners who are working to benefit the Kingdom, they are doing the opposite about killing Westerners, including Americans, abroad.
It's kind of sad that you think someone who feels that way must be "primarily concerned with Israel."
It just goes to show how much longer this fight is going to take, IMO.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 29, 2004 01:51 PMMichael: I like your suggestion about restoring the status quo in the Arabian peninsula to before the rise of the house of Saud. Let them have the emirate of the Nadj and let the Hashemites have the holy sites.
Re the house of Saud, I think it is difficult to characterize the some 6000 or so "princes" as of a common stripe. There are clearly some who are Wahabi's; but, there are others who recognize the danger of the Wahabis to their interests. The ruling family in the past took a powerful lesson from the 1979 take-over of the Mecca by fundamentalists and they cast their lot with the west, but at the same time trying to placate the fundamentalists. It has always been a perilous balancing act. I dont think we will know in the west which branch of the Saud family emerges as more powerful. If complete control goes to the fundamentalists, Michael's suggestion makes even more sense.
Posted by: RogerA at September 29, 2004 02:00 PMSoCal,
I can see that my comment about Israel as your primary concern tweaked at you. It shouldn't. I know you spend most of your time on LGF, and I've read a lot of your posts.
Your above posts are well taken. I'm not as steeped in the Sauds as you appear to be. I only have a generalized impression, and I would say that after reading your posts, I'm somewhere between you and RogerA. If the Sauds got the boot, I wouldn't shed any tears. But I wonder at who's waiting in the wings to replace them. The more moderate Sauds are all we've got right now.
Posted by: David at September 29, 2004 02:10 PMRogerA: Re the house of Saud, I think it is difficult to characterize the some 6000 or so "princes" as of a common stripe.
That is true. Prince Bandar is not a jihadi. Prince Alaweed is not a jihadi, and is primarily concerned with making money - although he bears some responsibility for disseminating anti-Western and anti-Semitic messages through some of his media properties.
I'm sure there are others who are probably apolitical altogether. It's a big family. But the jihadi elements surrounding Prince Najaf and the clerical establishment are powerful, and in no way, shape or form could ever be described as a "bulwark against the most extremist elements of the Kingdom."
They're the second most extremist element of the Kingdom as it is. If Abdullah dies and Najaf takes control, we're in trouble.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 29, 2004 02:11 PMDavid,
It only tweaked me in as much as I thought it was a fairly cheap shot to dismiss the validity of my opinions.
How would you then account for MJT being more hawkish on the matter than myself?
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 29, 2004 02:14 PM>>>"It only tweaked me in as much as I thought it was a fairly cheap shot to dismiss the validity of my opinions."
LOL. Because I've been to LGF and I know what an emotional topic it is. It can produce a kind of tunnel vision sometimes.
Posted by: David at September 29, 2004 02:19 PMSoCalJustice: you and I are in agreement--the west will have to watch carefully who emerges as the real power in the kingdom. The implications for the west and the war on terror will be profound.
Posted by: RogerA at September 29, 2004 02:20 PMA modest proposal:
Circulate a petition, which binds the signees to support, in word and deed, whoever wins this year. No weasel words, no 'buts', nothing, simply support.
I cannot deny that I loathe Kerry (did long before he was a Presidential candidate), but if he wins, he will have my support and my prayers. We are, after all, all on the same team.
Posted by: Scott at September 29, 2004 02:24 PMDavid,
Again, I ask, how would you account (or dismiss) MJT's thoughts on the matter?
On LGF, I'm by far one of the most moderate/liberal posters when it comes to the I/P conflict - and practically everything else for that matter.
I still don't see what that has to do with calling a spade a spade.
I would suggest reading the whole "Saudi Paradox" article. My "tunnel vision" (as you describe it) tells me the author is being pretty lenient on Abdullah, but I understand he's trying to be fair and espouse a continued Realpolitik, per the Council on Foreign Relations mindset. Fine. But he outlines plenty of extremism at the highest levels that all Westerners - even Europeans - should find chilling.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 29, 2004 02:27 PMIt's quite possible that Iraq was, in fact, the first step towards yanking the oil fields away from the House of Saud.
At least the eastern ones.
Even if Iraq turns about to be a disaster, I think it's highly unlikely that the Shi'ites there are going to accept being second class citizens again. And their empowerment is going to start putting a bee in the bonnet of Saudi Shi'ites, who are brutally repressed.
Posted by: praktike at September 29, 2004 02:58 PMpraktike: It's quite possible that Iraq was, in fact, the first step towards yanking the oil fields away from the House of Saud."
I admit I'm not a big believer in the "war for oil" aspect of the Iraq war (if it is in fact true, it seems like it's another aspect that's badly bungled, but that's an argument/discussion for another day).
But, if the Saudis believe that this is in fact what the Bush administration is trying to do, then I expect that the Saudis will not take that sitting down.
However, I would also say some of the forces they have unleashed upon the planet are hardly within their control anymore, despite the sympathies of the current Interior Minister.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 29, 2004 03:09 PMIf the Saudis are such good friends of Bush, why are they trying to get Kerry elected?
Posted by: Matthew Cromer at September 29, 2004 03:13 PMMatthew,
Just out of curiousity, how are they trying to get Kerry elected?
This way: Saudis to Raise Oil Production Capacity in Bid to Bring Down Record Prices
???
And by the way, this issue is not whether certain Saudis are close with certain members of the Bush family/administration. That is an indisputable, admitted fact - by both sides.
The issue is the members of the Saudi Royal family, and the clerical establishment, that are not friends to Bush, Baker or any other American for that matter - and why we've done squat about it, save redact 28 pages from the Congressional Joint Inquiry on 9/11 related to Saudi government involvement.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 29, 2004 04:23 PMMatthew,
Just out of curiousity, how are they trying to get Kerry elected?
This way: Saudis to Raise Oil Production Capacity in Bid to Bring Down Record Prices
???
And by the way, this issue is not whether certain Saudis are close with certain members of the Bush family/administration. That is an indisputable, admitted fact - by both sides.
The issue is the members of the Saudi Royal family, and the clerical establishment, that are not friends to Bush, Baker or any other American for that matter - and why we've done squat about it, save redact 28 pages from the Congressional Joint Inquiry on 9/11 related to Saudi government involvement.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 29, 2004 04:23 PMWorkers of the world, arise! You have nothing to lose but your
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