Careful, Michael. Many people have invested a lot of effort in the idea that the abuse was (is) systematic and that the orders came from the top.

When you say "serious abuses," do you mean "treatment of prisoners that likely violates the Geneva Conventions," or "the stuff that was in the photographs"? They're two different things, and it makes a difference in terms of the issue of a systemic problem (or the lack thereof).

There is a new report out that says that the abuses were more about the amusement of the soldiers involved than any actual intelligence gathering. If this is true then it would also undermine the idea that the abuse was systemic. Of course it would also mean that the soldiers involved are even worse examples of humanity that previously thought.

Punishment and Amusement

"Graner replied: The Christian in me says it's wrong, but the corrections officer in me says, 'I love to make a grown man piss himself.' "

Yesterday, the Wall Street Journal printed a lengthy article detailing the Red Cross report which suggested the abuses were tantamount to torture and were occurring with regularity and in various facilities.

That article doesn't say that "msot" of the abuses occurred on that day (Nov. 8) -- it says that "many" of them did. In that respect, it agrees with last night's Washington Post article ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46523-2004May21.html ), which also quotes the accused as saying that a lot of it was done by the guards for amsuement, but adds that they also say a lot of it was indeed ordered by MI officials. (The Post article's headline, by the way, is wildly misleading in this regard.)

And the evidence is extremely strong that the abuse was systemic, although it may have been unusually strongly concentrated at Abu Ghraib:

(1) CNN says that investigations are currently unde way of nine possible cases in which detainees were literally tortured to death during interrogation in both Iraq and Afghanistan ( http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.abuse.ap/index.html ) -- which leaves one wondering how often detainees are merely totured, as opposed to actually being tortured to death.

(2) CNN confirms the existence of that secret Baghdad facility run by the Special Forces ( http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/21/iraq.main/index.html ). As for the earlier reports that detainees have routinely been tortured there by near-drowning and the like, one "senior US official" is quoted as saying that "the site was run in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and all detainees were afforded their rights under that international document.

" 'That's not to say somebody didn't get their head dunked in the water,' he said."

(3) Newsweek ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5032094/site/newsweek/ ) has obtained a secret document in which two Justice department officials argued in Jan. 2002 both that the US need not obey the Geneva Accords because they're "unconstitutional" -- and that it need not publicly reveal that it's violating them, and should in fact continue to attack other countries for failing to follow them, for propaganda purposes. The State Department was enraged by this; but, as we all know by now, this administration pays very little attention to its State Department.

(4) Newsweek ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5032094/site/newsweek/ ) also confirms Seymour Hersh's story ( http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact ) that this rough interrogation, after initially being confined to relatively high-level suspected terrorists, was extended by Rumsfeld last September to relatively small fish in Iraq because of our inability to control the insurgency in any other way.

(5) The evidence continues to be very strong that there was a really major coverup for something supposedly limited to a relatively small number of abusers in one prison. Quoting "Slate" ( http://slate.msn.com/id/2100768/ ): "The Wall Street Journal goes high with word that top U.S. military officials in Iraq were sent a Red Cross report in early November detailing the prisoner abuses now at the center of the scandal, but the military didn't start an investigation until two months later. Previously, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has said the Pentagon didn't know about the abuses until a guard blew the whistle in mid-January....The NY Times' off-lead has the same information that the Journal does about the military's reaction to the Red Cross' report. But the Times emphasizes one quick response the military did have: It tried to cut off the Red Cross's spot inspections at Abu Ghraib. An unnamed senior Army officer said, 'They wanted the [Red Cross] to schedule visits' to the cellblocks that just happen to now be at the center of the abuse scandal. Both the Times and Journal stories are based on an unnamed top officer as well as the tush-covering former commandant of Abu Ghraib, Gen. Janis Karpinski."

And to quote "Slate" the next day ( http://slate.msn.com/id/2100842/ ): "...A Post editorial and a piece inside the LAT hit on [the fact that]: In congressional testimony yesterday, top military officials acknowledged there were interrogation rules for Iraq that were MIA. As the Army's top legal officer in Iraq told the Senate committee, 'We, as a task force, did not have' an interrogation policy. As the Wall Street Journal mentions in passing, the top commander in Iraq, Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, said he didn't see the list of harsh interrogation techniques that the Pentagon released last week and said SANCHEZ HAD APPROVED. [Italics are Slate's.] Sanchez also said he didn't know until recently about a November Red Cross report, even though his top legal aide signed off on a response to it in December.

"With most of the papers stumbling past the heart of the testimony, it's left to the Washington Post's editorial to notice a crucial bit: The Army legal officer said that with units left to wing it; they often just followed the interrogations methods they used elsewhere, notably from Afghanistan where the White House had ruled that the Geneva Conventions didn't apply.

(6) Last but not least, we have intelligence officer Samuel Provence's testimony both to ABC and to the Post that " 'dozens' of soldiers were involved in the abuse. 'There's definitely a cover-up,' said Sgt. Samuel Provance, who ignored an order not to speak to the press. 'People are either telling themselves or being told to be quiet.'" Provence, as Slate notes, adds that "contrary to senior defense officials' assertions, intelligence officers were behind the abuse and that the current investigation into that issue is lackluster." (ABC now adds -- http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/abu_ghraib_cover_up_040521-1.html -- that Provence has been told he may face prosecution because his statements were "not in the national interest." No statement from the military that they're actually false.)

By "msot" in my last message, of course, I meant "most".

There is, by the way, an excellent article by jeffrey Rosen ( http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040517&s=rosen051704 ) on the fact that we really do need a whole new set of legal procedures to allow the detention, interrogation and trial of possible terrorists in ways different from ordinary civilian legal procedures -- in order to provide the country with needed military security while still giving those suspects some degree of legal protection beyond the Administration's current straight-faced insistence that the President should have absolute carte blanche to declare anyone he chooses an "enemy combatant" and lock him up permanently without trial, and perhaps without letting anyone outside even know he HAS been locked up. (At least, that is, until the end of the "war against terrorism", which has never been officially declared -- and, as Justice O'Connor points out, may very well never end.)

Britain and Israel have gone to considerable lengths to establish such procedures. But, says Rosen: "In many senses, the Bush administration's actions are, indeed, unprecedented. In the past, U.S. law distinguished between lawful combatants, who were held as prisoners of war until the end of hostilities, and unlawful combatants, who were tried by military tribunals. But the administration has created a new category called 'enemy combatants,' who may never be tried by the military OR the civilian justice system, and who may be detained indefinitely--until the end of a war on terrorism that could never end. And, while other Western democracies have imposed legislative and judicial oversight on the preventive detention of terrorism suspects, the Bush administration -- arrogantly and inexplicably -- has refused to acknowledge any role for Congress OR the courts."

(Actually, it's a lot less "inexplicable" if we're being governed by a bunch of dictatorial thugs -- which, you'll recall, turned out to be the real explanation for a good many comparably "inexplicable" actions by the Nixon Administration. What happened once can easily happen again.)

I'll be a little more succinct than Bruce:

The meaning of the article isn't that Nov. 8th is the day that most of the abuse happened; it's the day they took pictures of it.

Surely you can't think that the guards involved behaved with proper discipline and respect for human rights every day before Nov. 8, engaged in an orgy of torture for one night to "blow off steam" (thanks, Rush L.), and then nonchalantly went back to behaving appropriately from then on?

Who could be naive enough to believe that?

Every one of the prisoners subjected to abuse that day were 'common criminals' with no intelligence value. Very interesting.

They IRC claims that as many as 70% of the prisoners in abracadabra prison are innocent. How do they know? I have not seen a single reporter ask them how they know. Did they ask the prisoners mother? What?

If the press is going to print this charge (as they should) could they not at least inquire as to the IRC’s methodology? The IRC cannot claim confidentiality of their methods after violating their confidentiality by releasing the report. Oh, I’m sorry, they didn’t release the report, and it was leaked (in a press conference!).

They IRC claims that as many as 70% of the prisoners in abracadabra prison are innocent. How do they know?

Uhh ... Joe? As was mentioned in nearly every news article I saw about the Red Cross report, that was an estimate given to them by U.S. military intelligence officers.

Did the news sources you read censor that part out? Or did you accomplish that feat yourself?

I agree with Swopa. Even if all the pictures floating around the news and the Internet were taken on one day, that's not an indication that what happened were an aberration. Discipline was shot in that prison; heads should roll.

But I also believe what was shown in the pictures is weakly linked to the question of invasive interrogation techniques. Maybe Private England and her pals were emulating the MI folks, and maybe they were applying what they learned in WV, MD, and PA. (Disclaimer: I've not watched or read any of Pvt. England's interviews. My stomach isn't that strong.)

A couple of months ago in a couple of places I was debating the proper way to fight a War on Terror. A prominent response to my position (target the states that support terror and make them stop, by any means necessary) was that we could directly attack terrorists with "Intelligence and Special Ops."

Folks, "Intelligence and Special Ops" pretty much means trampling on somebody's civil liberties, at least as we know them in the US.

Intelligence works through eavesdropping, extortion, intimidation, and aggressive interrogation. Satellite photos will not tell you what got said in a tent in the middle of the Gobi desert. Aerial reconnaissance will not tell you whether a 55-gallon drum contains pesticides or VX.

Special Ops, of course, means sending troops into hostile territory where, unless everything goes perfectly, the chances of screwing up, achieving nothing, and provoking retaliation are extremely high.

What's on those pictures has little if anything to do with using torture to extract information. They show people who turned out to be (in my opinion) childish monsters. For me, the one-two punch of Abu Ghraib is the inhumanity of the guards, and the failure of discipline in their command structure. But it's not torture I see.

Real torture for intelligence gathering is likely to be worse.

Pick your poison, folks.

Michael writes: "...it knocks a body blow to the theory that this problem is a systemic one."

Precisely what many have been saying for some time. Perhaps for different reasons, but I've never been able to accept that this was a routine of our military.

Actually, the account we keep getting over and over again from the Abu Ghraib guards is that MI told them to "rough up" the prisoners -- without providing any guidelines as to what "roughing them up" should and should not consist of, which left them free to exercise their own diseased imaginations in that regard. (See, for instance, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48722-2004May22.html .)

The truth is probably a combination of this with mark Poling's obbservation that we have been using flat-out torture against "important" suspects from the very start. As Newsweek and Hersh say: after Iraq collapsed into total anarchy, thanks to Rummy's insistence on using inadequate troop levels, we made the desperate decision to try and compensate for this by giving the go-ahead for the use of generally similar interrrogation (and prison control) techniques on smaller fry in Iraq -- and, given the fact that we didn't have the personnel to monitor the situation, the autonomous use of this by lower-level MIs and guards both got out of control and became impossible for the military to cover up anymore. (Which raises the interesting moral question of whether "competent torture" is worse than "incompetent torture".)

In this connection, by the way, the Times has tonight dug up another goodie: while the Pentagon has been publicly insisting in recent days that it attempted to apply the Geneva Conventions to ALL prisoners in Iraq, a (naturally) confidential Dec. 24 letter from the Pentagon's lawyers to the Red Cross has turned up in which they declare "that many Iraqi prisoners were not entitled to the full protections of the Geneva Conventions." ( http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/international/middleeast/23IRAQ.html ).

Zeyad's cousin was killed in January. The abuses were not limited to one day and extend far beyond Abu Ghraib.

In this connection, by the way, the Times has tonight dug up another goodie: while the Pentagon has been publicly insisting in recent days that it attempted to apply the Geneva Conventions to ALL prisoners in Iraq, a (naturally) confidential Dec. 24 letter from the Pentagon's lawyers to the Red Cross has turned up in which they declare "that many Iraqi prisoners were not entitled to the full protections of the Geneva Conventions."

Well, that's not necessarily contradictory.

No, it IS contradictory -- the Pentagon has claimed repeatedly and unambiguously in recent days that it regarded all prisoners in Iraq as entitled to the full protection of the Gevnea Accords; but the letter from the Pentagon's lawyers to the Red Cross claims that it has the right to treat some Iraqi prisoners to interrogation techniques NOT allowed by Geneva in exactly the same way that our prisoners in Guantanamo were supposedly not entitled to those protections and were therefore abused (or tortured, or physically forcefully interrogated, or whatever you choose to call it):

"In recent public statements, Bush administration officials have said that the Geneva Conventions were "fully applicable" in Iraq. That has put American-run prisons in Iraq in a different category from those in Afghanistan and in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, where members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban have been declared unlawful combatants not eligible for protection. However, the Dec. 24 letter appears to undermine administration assertions of the conventions' broad application in Iraq...

"The International Committee of the Red Cross had reported in November that its staff, in a series of visits to Abu Ghraib in October, had 'documented and witnessed' ill treatment that 'included deliberate physical violence' as well as verbal abuse, forced nudity and prolonged handcuffing in uncomfortable positions.

"In Congressional testimony last week, Lt. Gen. Lance Smith, the deputy commander of American forces in the Middle East, asserted that the Dec. 24 response demonstrated that the military had fully addressed the Red Cross complaints.

"But the three-page response did not address many of the specific concerns cited by the Red Cross, whose main recommendations included improving the treatment of prisoners held for interrogation.

"Instead, much of the military's reply is devoted to presenting a legal justification for the treatment of a broad category of Iraqi prisoners, including hundreds identified by the United States as 'security detainees' in a cellblock at Abu Ghraib and in another facility known as Camp Cropper on the outskirts of the Baghdad airport, where the Red Cross had also found abuses."

So: WAS the military's high-level leadership officially ordering its underlings that all prisoners in Iraq should be treated in accord with Geneva, or wasn't it? Yet again, it's radically changed its story, a fact revealed (as usual) only because somebody somewhere leaked a document which the military and the administration were frantically trying to keep secret. To be more vernacular, they've recently been caught repeatedly lying through their teeth. Personally, I find the now-clear revelations of a really large-scale coverup considerably more nauseating than those photos.

I should add that the Pentagon's secret letter to the Red Cross used, as legal justificatin for this, its own interpretation of a possible loophole in the Geneva Accords which both the red cross and one of America's major experts in military law regard as flatly erroneous -- and which actually varies in the English and French translations of the Accords.

Yet another very nice summary of the extent and nature of the cover-up, in tonight's Washington Post editorial: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48571-2004May22.html .

Are we really supposed to believe that they're going to such tremendous lengths to cover up what's going on if they're not doing something which has to BE covered up?

Let's see, the president's counsel refers to some of the provisions of the Geneva Conventions as "obsolete" and "quaint." Back in December 2002 the Washington Post had an article about allegations of torture at Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan which included allegations of rendering the accused to third countries to be tortured, which is in violation of the Convent Against Torture. Here are some choice quotes:

"If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job," said one official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists. "I don't think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA."

According to one official who has been directly involved in rendering captives into foreign hands, the understanding is, "We don't kick the [expletive] out of them. We send them to other countries so they can kick the [expletive] out of them." Some countries are known to use mind-altering drugs such as sodium pentathol, said other officials involved in the process.

After years of fruitless talks in Egypt, President Bill Clinton cut off funding and cooperation with the directorate of Egypt's general intelligence service, whose torture of suspects has been a perennial theme in State Department human rights reports.

"You can be sure," one Bush administration official said, "that we are not spending a lot of time on that now."

The culture to allow what took place in Abu Ghraib was created with statements and actions like that, with Gonzalez's attempt to render treaties irrelevant among other wink, wink; nudge, nudge actions. The fish stinks from the head.

GMRoper writes: "Precisely what many have been saying for some time. Perhaps for different reasons, but I've never been able to accept that this was a routine of our military."

This is exactly the kind of attitude that allows these kinds of things to happen. We have a right, a duty and an obligation to our children to question all of our government's actions. We shouldn't be cutting the government any slack. I just read that McCain is furious because the prison report received by the senate committee is missing 2000 pages. Sorry to say but the Bush administration pretty much treats the American people as if we're a bunch of idiots. All the information that should have been provided freely only gets out through leaks, subpoenas, political threats and of course a bunch of cameras in the hands of soldiers. Now Rumsfeld wants to ban cameras in all parts of the military. I wonder why...

Yea, it remains to be seen.

It is of course comforting to know that the sawing off of Nick Berg's head took place on a single day only. Perhaps that explains the marginalization of that event in the media relative to AG abuses. No one can accuse the media of undue emphasis upon Nick Berg's decapitation. So let's give "credit" where credit is due.

And does anyone have a link regarding what the Geneva Convention has to say concerning decapitations? Or the rules of interrogation bin Laden has set out for Zarqawi and al-Queda in Iraq to follow? A link to the bin Laden memo on that issue would be helpful.

Would the last commentator mind telling us exactly how wholesale torture -- stemming from the fact that this administration stupidly carried out a war with far too few troops, and had absolutely no backup plan -- benefits us srategically in the struggle against either Islamic Fascism or megaterrorism? Or why -- even if one assumes that occasional torture of really high-ranking terrorist suspects may be necessary -- we should set up a system in which (as Jeffrey Rosen points out) such suspects have absolutely NO legal rights other than what the Prez chooses to grant them personally? As for the media "marginalizing" Nick Berg's murder: may I suggest that it might possibly have something to do with the fact we all already know perfectly well what Islamic Fascism is like, whereas we did NOT know until now what the US military has been up to in Iraq behind our backs?

I always detested Henry Kissinger's little quip that such-and-such was "worse than a crime; it was a mistake." But what we've been up in our prisons in Iraq is both a crime AND a mistake -- and the "mistake" part of it will almost certainly end up doing far more harm both to the US and to humanity in general than the "crime" part does.

For all the daily revelations in the various news stories, there's been essentially no new information since MG Taguba's report.

That report makes clear the abuses were ongoing, but not as a result of orders, and that the abuses took place in OCT-DEC '03 (with the worst and photos in late October to early November). He also marks the MP unit as "dysfunctional" and notes the MI personel encouraged the abuse.

The linkage to interrogation ROE is problematic. For one thing, the recommendations hadn't been adopted. For another, they don't include the behavior that took place. Finally, many of the detainees clearly don't qualify for "combatant" status under the Geneva Conventions, and the rules should be different for them.

Cecil Turner,

Finally, many of the detainees clearly don't qualify for "combatant" status under the Geneva Conventions, and the rules should be different for them.

The Convention Against Torture (US signed and ratified) applies here even if one makes the argument that the Geneva Conventions don't.

Finally, many of the detainees clearly don't qualify for "combatant" status under the Geneva Conventions, and the rules should be different for them.

Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention states: "Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy," belong to any of the categories for POWs, "such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."

In other words, it's not just because Bush or Rumsfeld pronounces them as enemy combatants.

"Would the last commentator ..." Bruce M.

You interpreted my comment as defending "wholesale torture"? To the contrary, adding perspective, commensurate weighting, whatever one cares to label it, does not imply approval of "wholesale torture." If that's news, we likely don't have any basis for a discussion to begin with. In fact, I can't take your question seriously without reframing and rephrasing it to such a degree that it would be a different question entirely, so am hesitant to do so.

As regards the commensurate weighting referred to, based on this poll information skimmed from instapundit, I'm not alone:

20. On the situation in Iraq today, where do you think most of the problems are being created?

1. In Iraq 23%
2. In Washington, DC, or 18
3. In the news media 27
4. (Combination) 21
5. (All) 8
6. (None) -
7. (Not sure) 3

27. Which of the following news stories upset you more?

1. The abuse of Iraqi prisoners
by U.S. soldiers 8%
2. The beheading of an American
civilian by Muslim terrorists 60
3. (Both equal) 29
4. (Not sure) 3

28. Do you think the media spent an excessive amount of time covering either of the following news stories?

1. The Iraqi prisoner abuse story 34%
2. The beheading of American Nick Berg 9
3. (Both were covered excessively) 35
4. (Neither was covered excessively) 15
5. (Not sure) 7

Regarding Iraq and the WoI (War on Islamofascism) more broadly, I linked to the following from one of R. Simon's posts, but will link to it once more as it articulates and mirrors my own views rather precisely. It's this post at Paul Craddick's Fragmenta Philosophica.

Randy,
A "combatant" is someone who fights in a war (it's a prerequisite for POW status). The contention is that Al Qaeda and (and some others) don't meet the article 4 requirements for lawful combatant status:
"(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
© That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. " And if the entire organization doesn't meet the requirements, there's little doubt about the individual fighter.

The torture treaty specifies "severe pain or suffering." The guidelines adopted for Al Qaeda appear designed to avoid meeting the threshold.

The reality appears to have been different. Also, the rendering of alleged Al Qaeda terrorists to third countries for interrogation is a violation of the CAT as well.

In any event, no competent tribunal has been established to determine the applicabilty of the Geneva Conventions to these individuals.

By the way, the entire definition of torture in the CAT is as follows:

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. [my emphasis]

Randy,

If by "reality" you mean the abuses at Abu Ghraib, they clearly weren't following the ROE. (And the fact they're being court-martialed argues against viewing it as implementing policy.) The connection between the ROE and abuse seems tenuous.

The ROE contains nothing I'd classify as "severe pain or suffering"--physical or mental. (Except for the fact they're detained for the duration, which is too bad.) As to "rendering," in every case I'm aware of, it equated to returning the detainee to the country issuing his passport. Which is again, too bad.

Michael B.'s quotation of public opinion polls to prove he must be right is a bit less convincing when you consider that 79% of the American people told Gallup they thought Lt. Calley was innocent during the first few weeks after the revelation of the My Lai massacres. After all, surely Americans are far above most other human beings in morality, simply by virtue of being Americans, and so couldn't possibly have done such a thing, could they? We are still, albeit to a lesser degree, contaminated with that classic kind of chauvinism today (as are the inhabitants of all other countries).

As for the undeniable fact that Islamic Fascism really IS a much more vicious political culture than democratic secularism: I will repeat the point I made earlier, which should be obvious -- our activities at Abu Ghraib are actually more destructive by virtue of being a mistake than they are by virtue of being a crime. Moslems, thanks to the fact that most of them follow a pre-reformed religion, are drenched in bigotry against non-Moslems to begin with -- and these actions on our part, despite the fact that they're less bad than what Moslems routinely do to each other, therefore do a splendid job of unnecessarily further inflaming that distrust and flat-out hatred of non-Moslems at precisely the time when we're trying to minimize it.

And as for us following the ROE, see http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/international/middleeast/23IRAQ.html?pagewanted=print&position :

"Presented last fall with a detailed catalog of abuses at Abu Ghraib prison, the American military responded on Dec. 24 with a confidential letter to a Red Cross official asserting that many Iraqi prisoners were not entitled to the full protections of the Geneva Conventions.

"The letter, drafted by military lawyers and signed by Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, emphasized the 'military necessity' of isolating some inmates at the prison for interrogation because of their 'significant intelligence value,' and said prisoners held as security risks could legally be treated differently from prisoners of war or ordinary criminals.

But the military insisted that there were 'clear procedures governing interrogation to ensure approaches do not amount to inhumane treatment.'

In recent public statements, Bush administration officials have said that the Geneva Conventions were 'fully applicable' in Iraq. That has put American-run prisons in Iraq in a different category from those in Afghanistan and in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, where members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban have been declared unlawful combatants not eligible for protection. However, the Dec. 24 letter appears to undermine administration assertions of the conventions' broad application in Iraq.

"Until now, the only known element of the letter had been a provision described by a senior Army officer as having asserted that the Red Cross should not seek in the future to conduct no-notice inspections in the cellblock where the worst abuses took place."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/11/world/main310701.shtml :

"The military intelligence unit that ran interrogations at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison had earlier served at a U.S. detention facility in Afghanistan where two prisoners died, according to a newspaper.

"Afghans who were detained at that facility describe mistreatment similar to the abuse at Abu Ghraib, The New York Times reported."

Bruce,

There've been several articles about the new ROE for interrogations of Al Qaeda detainees, and they specify mild sleep deprivation, stress positions, water boards, etc. They don't mention pyramids, women's underwear, siccing guard dogs on prisoners, or any other of the sadistic games played at Abu Ghraib. Whatever guidelines the MPs were following, it wasn't the new ROE.

There is a separate investigation ongoing into the MI abuses, but they aren't the ones in the photographs. Those are MPs. According to MG Taguba, the MI folks did encourage the MPs to "soften up" the prisoners, but the MI folks weren't in the chain of command, nor would those orders be lawful in any event. It'll be interesting to see if any of the accused try that as a defense . . . so far apparently they haven't.

"Water boards" consist of threatening (convincingly) to drown someone. Exactly how can you do this convincingly unless you actually dunk them a few times and hold them under for protracted periods, in the classic Ducking Stool tradition?

"Stress positions" involve forcing someone to stand in an uncomfortable position while the discomfort gets greater and greater. How can this be effective as a form of interrogation until the pain gets serious?

As for "sleep deprivation", as someone said on another blogsite last night: "As torturers past have always found, deprive someone of sleep for five days and they'll confess to anything from flying through the air on a broomstick to being a capitalist spy."

In short, there's hardly a wide borderline between Guantanamo-style interrogation and "the sadistic games played at Abu Ghraib" -- indeed, when it comes to those naked pyramids and humiliating sexual poses, what was done at Abu Ghraib was almost certainly a lot LESS painful than what our military interrogators have been doing undercover. What all this proves is the not exactly shocking point that there is an unavoidably fuzzy borderline between "forceful interrogation" and "torture" -- and that we had damn well better have an adequate system set in place to monitor the use of it and minimize the chances that it's being overapplied in any individual case. And, of course, it also proves that it's a wee bit unwise (as well as immoral) to invade a country with a grossly inadequate number of troops and then frantically try to compensate for it with the wholesale torture of small fry.

Bruce,

The Times article (unfortunately no longer available online) said the ROE limited stress positions to 45 minutes with general officer approval, and sleep deprivation was also limited. A water board consists of laying someone down on a board with a rag over their face and running water over it. There's no "ducking under." Anyone who's been through boot camp has experienced all of it except the water board, and SERE graduates got that as well. "Torture" is a bit strong.

But whatever you think of those guidelines, they obviously weren't being applied at Abu Ghraib. And the primary reason to make the connection appears to be a desire to implicate the chain of command. The logical disconnect in asserting a set of orders which nobody followed caused the abuse ought to be obvious.

The, by exactly the same reasoning, it was totally ineffective as interrogation -- which is another reason for me to be suspicious that those were actually the techniques applied (along with the continuing solid evidence that the Army absolutely did not want the ICRC -- or anyone else -- prying into what actually is going on during such interrogations).

If you can give me the title of the Times piece, there's a good chance I can find it somewhere on the Web. (I may be able to locate it even without this, but your assistance would be valuable.) Thanks.

Bruce,

Sorry, should have put up the link anyway (and the abstract is still there). Phil Carter also discussed it in a Slate article, and his take is probably more to your liking than mine.

And I think we're talking past each other on the ROE issue. MG Taguba said the Brigade wasn't tasked to follow it, and that the NCOs essentially made up their own program. The pictures seem to bear that out, as did the generals' testimony at the recent senate hearings. Obviously I can't prove a negative, but there's no evidence I'm aware of that connects the two. If you've got some, I'd love to see it. If not, cheers.

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