I would have been court martialed because of my response if I had been one of the soldiers asked to do such things.

FH,

From what I understand (someone correct me if I'm wrong) soldiers are required to disobey illegal orders.

Okay call me stupid but I can't even figure out what they are doing! Anyone wanna explain?

They're posing happily with a guy who died in Abu Ghraib. How he died I do not know.

Actually, Michael, comment is necessary.

We all know about this story. The MSM has covered it, and will continue to cover it, in excruciating detail.

Without comment, these pictures simply inflame. And since you don't comment, it's fair to say you mean only to inflame.

That's the definition of a troll.

The bottom photo looks like the sadistic cretin Charles Graner, the top does not look much like his lover, the sadistic cretin Lynndie England. Is that Lynndie?

This is odd: if I do a Google search for "Lynndie England" I get 102,000 hits, but if I do a Google image search for the same name I get zero hits. Does Google censor politically sensitive images?

Maco: it's fair to say you mean only to inflame.

I just want to make sure everyone got a chance to see this.

Besides, this isn't going to stop unless the entire country knows about it and demands it be purged from the system.

Wow...

I'm confused. Can one be a troll of one's own site? This is news to me.

Grant: Can one be a troll of one's own site?

No.

I just want to make sure everyone got a chance to see this.

Right.

Not to further enflame, or troll, or whatever... but I read today on a major news site something about these two photos, and maybe others, being faked... something about a second cd with many of the images we saw before, only with out the green gloved goons... I dunno, I gotta dig somemore... will update ya when I have anything.

TomC: Google Images does have a SafeSearch function that limits search results, and it's on by default, but even without that I get 0 hits searching for that name. Interesting.

Never mind... NY Times... it just keeps getting worse and worse.

But in one photo a soldier is seen cocking his fist as he holds a hooded detainee in a headlock amid a pile of several detainees.

Later he is seen kneeling atop the pile, flexing his muscles, a broad smile on his face, the newspaper said.

The Post said one video clip showed five hooded and naked detainees standing against the wall in the darkness, each masturbating, with two other hooded detainees crouched at their feet.

Another segment of video showed a prisoner handcuffed to the outside of a cell door, slamming his head into the green metal, the newspaper said.

Another photo showed a prisoner in an orange jumpsuit recoiling from a snarling dog, it said.

U.S. soldiers also turned the cameras on themselves, filming scenes of consensual sex, the Post said.

Many of the detainees described how they were sexually humiliated and assaulted, threatened with rape and forced to masturbate in front of female soldiers, according to the newspaper.

The statements added allegations of prisoners being ridden like animals and forced to retrieve their food from toilets, the newspaper said.

Hideous

Shame on you, Michael. Didn't you catch Mark Steyn's Sunday piece comparing all this to "a Paris Hilton party" and declaring that "the scandal is dead", or his piece yesterday (entitled "Save Your Outrage for a Real Scandal") stating that it consisted of "guys wearing underwear on their heads" and declaring that any concern over its strategic consequences was "hysterical" because "There has been nary a word of complaint from representatives of the Shiites and Kurds, who comprise 80% of Iraq's population." The latter seems a bit odd, since several Shiite and Kurd representatives on the Iraqi Governing Council raised screaming hell over what we did in Fallujah -- the central base of the most pro-Saddam Sunnis -- and at least two of them resigned in protest. But who am I to question of one of modern conservative journalism's most acclaimed young stars?

The Washington Post now has "hundreds" of new pictures and a couple of videos. They are not only worse than ever, but the paper has also secured sworn testimonies from 13 victims. This is the really bad stuff: inlcuding rape of a minor and what seems to be ritualized sexual humiliation and blackmail. Also a healthy dollop of religous desecration-- which is about as friggin' stupid as you can get. Some advice to the pro-war folks from someone on the left who's about as sympathetic as you get: recognize and accept this torture scandal for what it is. Complaining about the revelations and denouncing the press is only going to dig you deeper into what is already a might black hole.

But I have to say that Mike's comment: "Besides, this isn't going to stop unless the entire country knows about it and demands it be purged from the system." seems bogus to me.

Isnt going to stop? Until the entire country knows about it? And demands it be purged?

What planet are you on? I mean, who, in this country, or in that one, hasnt heard about this?

And you say that you want it purged, you expect it to stop?

The main ring leaders of this little farce were chosen by the Army to work this detail because they had been corrections officers back in the States in their day jobs!

This is the norm for prison treatment, not an aberration.

David Kaspar reported that this kinda things own in Germany's prison system.

Phillip Zimbardo proved that it happens with anyone put into these roles, even good midwest college kids.

So do you really expect that by showing these photos that you will be a) increasing the public's awareness, b) rousing public outcry against this kinda behavior, and c) leading to its "purge"?

Or are you really just "trolling your own site"? I mean, these pictures are horrific. I bet you just needed to share the emotional impact with us, right?

It's perfectly natural.

At the risk of appearing to condone or minimize the scandal, repeated airing of prison photos is starting to look a lot like wallowing. Let's correct the mistake and get past it. Much more important things are at stake.

Oh, come on Sean. You've known me for how long now? 20 years?

Yes, this kind of crap happens all the time. In our own prisons. In Germany's prisons. In Canada's prisons, too, I'm sure.

It's hideous. And it happens because we pretend that it doesn't. That's why I posted these pictures.

Complaining about the revelations and denouncing the press is only going to dig you deeper into what is already a might black hole.

It is a black hole we are ALL in, Marc -- not just some pro-war faction that offends your sensibilities.

As an American, I own the abuse. I am deeply embarrassed.

But I detect no embarrassement from either you or Michael. What I see are two peacocks strutting their tailfeathers of Moral Superiority. If either of you felt personally stained by this scandal, you would not now be delivering lectures with such smug satisfaction.

You own your part, I'll own mine.

Save the tut-tutting for your kids.

Maco: But I detect no embarrassement from either you or Michael.

I'm not embarassed so much as pissed off. I hardly even know what to say, which is why I didn't say anything.

The only reason this crap even has a chance of getting stopped is because the pictures are out in the world. So I will not apologize for publishing them.

The only reason this crap even has a chance of getting stopped is because the pictures are out in the world.

If it were a question of proper exposure, I would agree with you. But after a certain point, it's just piling on. Republishing photos published by ABC -- photos that it will be difficult NOT to see in the coming days and weeks -- is hardly the public service you suggest it is.

On the other hand, I have heard there are photos that show Lyndie England engaged in hard-core sex with her fellow soldiers. I expect those photos will not be published in uncensored form by the MSM. I'm sure these pictures are quite shocking and outrageous, however, and need to seen if we are to prevent our soldiers from gangbanging when they ought be soldiering. So here is a case where your desire to inform the public might actually be warranted. I assume you will publish them.

If you do, please try to include the "money shots," as those will be particularly outrageous and loathsome. I only hope that, this time, your own outrage is not so poignant that you are struck mute.

Maco// That's a pretty nifty skill you have... being able to determine what someone feels over the internet. Consider a patent. Now to the point: I feel a mixture of emotions. They range from rage to disgust to embarrassment and shame and then back to utter disgust and anger. You bet we all own this.. even if all of us didn't create it (by the way). Which means, like it or not, some of "us" own a bigger chunk of it (Im hardly thinkng of you or any "pro-war" faction but rather about those who gave the orders). But there is absolutely NO excuse or rationale that can be made for limiting or containing the coverage. In any case, what Totten publishes on this site will be a tiny drop compared to the torrent of crap that will be raining down in the next few days from the dailies and the networks. I take absolutely no satisfaction from what I see-- quite to the contrary. And I am ready to work on the problem not just pick at it. And that was my suggestion. That those who are now bitching about the pictures start worrying how to fix this problem rather than to pretend it isn't there, or that it doesn't represent the monumental moral defeat that it quite obviously is.

More photos don't make it worse, it is what it is and the sooner we find out the full extent of the abuse, including to what level of the military the orders or approval reached, the better. That is when we will be able to put this behind us.

We are better than this.

After 9/11, those on the right (with me) demanded that mainstream Muslims oppose the extremist wing that had been responsible for the attacks. The mainstream Muslims were attacked not because of their actions but because of their failure to condemn the actions of others.

I won't be caught in the same trap. I am not going to condemn these soldiers and then add a "BUT..." like the hordes of leftists I have listened to over the last year.

This is wrong. America is better than this. All of these soldiers do not deserve to wear that uniform and should be stripped of it and thrown in Levenworth. Period. No qualification.

You dumbasses.

Those photos are nothing. Its the usual "give-the-thumbs-up-over-the-corpse-of-an-enemy" photo, examples of which anyone can find from the 1st Gulf War, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, WWI, the Philipines, the Indian Wars, and I think, the Civil War. (and that's just wars involving the US). You can find the same things for other armies with cameras.

Why didn't you post the ones where they're actually abusing prisoners? How about the Lyndie England sex video we've all heard so much about? Come on, put it out there already. POST IT ALL, why don't you?

MJT, didn't think I'd see you jump on the manufactured outrage bandwagon.

You disappoint me. I expected better out of you.

From what I understand (someone correct me if I'm wrong) soldiers are required to disobey illegal orders.

They certainly don't have to obey illegal orders

Every GI should know their rights

Do you support posting pictures of gang killings to keep us from pretending they don't happen? Drug addicts? Spouse or child abuse?

How about pictures of what Saddam did to his captives, do we need reminded of that?

It occurs to me that my comment may be read as using Saddam to justify US actions. This is not the case, I find both reprehensible.

My question is why we supposedly need pictures of one but not the other.

Do you support posting pictures of gang killings...Spouse or child abuse?...what Saddam did to his captives...

I don't think you're gonig to find one person in the country (except the perpetrators) whose outrage at these actions isn't the same: revulsion. Plus these are actions that have been part of our cultural consciousness (unfortunately) for years and years. Saddam less so, but it's still been around a while.

With the Abu Ghraib pictures, there are still Americans (predictably) all over the map as to their reactions or lack of reactions. Michael wants to help focus the attention, that's all.

Different circumstances call for different tactics.

Sick, wrong and perpetrated by criminals who will be punished.

Having said that, Im not embarrassed, Im proud of our troops. You see, I realize that the overwhelming vast majority of our troops are not criminals like those who have committed the recent illegal acts.

This whole thing is propaganda. Can't have a vietnam without baby killers.

Barry
I'm going to pick out 2 of your sentences that seem to be at odds with each other:

I don't think you're gonig to find one person in the country (except the perpetrators) whose outrage at these actions isn't the same: revulsion.

there are still Americans (predictably) all over the map as to their reactions or lack of reactions.

Which is it?

There seems to me to a disconnect in continuing to show only these photos. What's the real reason for doing it? I have a feeling MNM just said it. Why does politics have to lose us another war?

This whole thing is propaganda. Can't have a vietnam without baby killers.

--couldn't have it without the gulf of tonkin either, speaking of propaganda.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that the other circumstances you stated: gang killings, child abuse, Saddam, etc - negative associations to them are now (and have been in some cases for years) a part of our social consciousness. There's no need to keep hammering in the message - we get it and believe it.

But there's still controversy surrounding the circumstances of the Abu Ghraib pictures - predictably along party lines - and that's why the undecided, and probably overall uninformed American public still needs to have the stroy in front of their brains, so the decision is not made for them by that same social consciousness.

MJT quote:

"The only reason this crap even has a chance of getting stopped is because the pictures are out in the world. So I will not apologize for publishing them."

The only legit argument that I could make is that it would place the rest of our soldiers (and civilians in the area) in greater danger. However, the cat is well and truly out of the bag at this point. So, given that the damage has already been done, we should at least make people aware of what is going on.

I got pointed to some rouge sites that had photos that will never make the mainstream media - makes them look pretty tame by comparison. Unfortunately, I don't have the link anymore because, at the time, I wrote it off a hoax. Surely, our soldiers would never resort to such tactics. I still don't know how to react over the revelation that those pictures were genuine.

Barry
Sorry, I did misunderstand you.

I don't watch TV (it rots the brain), but I thought this had made the evening news. I know it made the CNN website. I've heard it on the radio, I've read it on the web, and I'd be willing to bet it's been on TV. Most people probably know about it.

And most are probably outraged. I'm outraged, but I don't extend it to thinking that we were mistaken in invading Iraq. I don't extend it thinking that our entire military is corrupt. Is my outrage enough, or is more expected?

And most are probably outraged. I'm outraged, but I don't extend it to thinking that we were mistaken in invading Iraq. I don't extend it thinking that our entire military is corrupt. Is my outrage enough, or is more expected?

--you might be experiencing delusions of self grandeur, the reaction of Iraqis to these pictures is really the only one that counts in the end. and their reaction to the pictures of the killing of the wedding party [oops, i'm not being PC, I mean 'foreign fighters'], and the gunships in Najaf, Karbala,... If they're big on these images, ya got nothing to worry about.

I think Michael's point is it's not enough just to be outraged. I'm sure people all over Europe in the 30's were outraged at what Hitler did, but few did much to stop him.

Americans must be outraged enough so that those who can actually do something positive about it, will. And those who can't directly do something about it will put pressure on those who can (Congress, etc). We can't just sit back and shake our heads in disbelief, prosecute a few of the offenders and consider ourselves washed clean and ready to move on. We all have to actively work to make sure this mindset is purged from our Armed Forces and whatever pieces of the Administration condoned or even ordered it (if that's indeed the case).

Calibar
the reaction of Iraqis to these pictures is really the only one that counts in the end. and their reaction to the pictures of the killing of the wedding party [oops, i'm not being PC, I mean 'foreign fighters'], and the gunships in Najaf, Karbala
So if this is simply a war of propaganda, why show anything bad? We could take the al Jereeza route and just show the Iraqis all the good things we're doing.

You are correct that the important thing is the Iraqi people. So tell me the benefit to the Iraqi people of continuing to show those pictures in the US.

barry
that those who can actually do something positive about it, will
Since that's already being done (there has already been a conviction, and given the slowness of our legal system, it's been being done for a while) I'm still left wondering why we need more pictures.

and whatever pieces of the Administration condoned or even ordered it
I'm fairly certain the left believes this. Applying internal politics to war, maybe this is Vietnam again.

'the reaction of Iraqis to these pictures is really the only one that counts in the end. and their reaction to the pictures of the killing of the wedding party [oops, i'm not being PC, I mean 'foreign fighters'], and the gunships in Najaf, Karbala,... If they're big on these images, ya got nothing to worry about"

Yeah, rape rooms, ethnic cleansing, massacres and nerve agent attacks as a matter of public policy were much better. If only the Iraqis could go back to the good ol days.

Since that's already being done (there has already been a conviction, and given the slowness of our legal system, it's been being done for a while) I'm still left wondering why we need more pictures.

It's one thing to prosecute the soldiers. It's another to ensure everyone up the chain of command (and outside, as in the case with Intelligence) is fully and fairly investigated and the soldiers are not just made scapegoats. That's the fear, that the public will be satisfied with a handful of soldier convictions and not be inclined to see it through any further up the ladder.

Keeping the pictures in the public eye keeps the situation, well, in the public eye until it is resolved.

"and whatever pieces of the Administration condoned or even ordered it"
I'm fairly certain the left believes this.

I'm sure most of the Left believe the New Yorker story without question, and most of the Right (note the capitals) dismiss it out of hand. I think the allegations are very troubling, but I need to see more proof and verification before coming to a decision.

Barry: "that those who can actually do something positive about it, will..."

Ron: "Since that's already being done (there has already been a conviction, and given the slowness of our legal system, it's been being done for a while) I'm still left wondering why we need more pictures."

Given the evidence of a high-level coverup at this point, anyone who wants to believe the latter has his work cut out for him.

One word: Watergate.

barry
You've made some good points. It's true that using grunts as scapegoats is not the best way to prevent this happening again.

But when you say
Keeping the pictures in the public eye keeps the situation, well, in the public eye until it is resolved.
leads me back to where we started. Why not keep showing pictures of Saddam's tortures to keep in the public eye why we need to be in Iraq?

Am I the only one who thinks the soldier in the top photo is hot?

I mean, the living solder, of course.

Human depravity is universal.

But ours is a country of Laws, not men. God Bless America.

Actually, she is hot. I'd do her.

Why not keep showing pictures of Saddam's tortures to keep in the public eye why we need to be in Iraq?

I see your point. I think the problem is Saddam, his sons, and his regime are gone, so there's been a sense of public closure on the atrocities under his rule. A sense of, "Well, we've taken care of that problem." So since, technically, the tortures have ended you're going to get less reaction to continually bringing them back up again.

Of course, "his regime" in the paragraph above is still out there, in large quantities. Witness today's story about 4 former members of Saddam's Fedayeen being involved in Nick Berg's murder:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/21/berg/index.html

Two held in Berg beheading case
Coalition forces detained four; released two after questioning

"An Iraqi security official said the four men who decapitated Berg and videotaped it were members of Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen paramilitary organization, according to The Associated Press."

What this means is that while Saddam and juniors are gone, his regime is still doing dirty work.

So yes, that's a good point to keep the horrible things Saddam did during his reign in the public eye as well, but until people remember that parts of his regime are still alive and active, it will be difficult to use the old torture pictures effectively as a Call to Action.

You are correct that the important thing is the Iraqi people. So tell me the benefit to the Iraqi people of continuing to show those pictures in the US.

--more people in the US might demand that the military stop using torture to extract faulty information from people who most often have nothing to offer as intelligence and frequently are in the prison due to faulty intelligence, random raids, lack of interpreters, bureaucratic slipups, etc.

Yeah, rape rooms, ethnic cleansing, massacres and nerve agent attacks as a matter of public policy were much better. If only the Iraqis could go back to the good ol days.

--nope, most iraqis would rather be able to decide their own fate instead of having it imposed from outside. not that hard to understand really.

So yes, that's a good point to keep the horrible things Saddam did during his reign in the public eye as well, but until people remember that parts of his regime are still alive and active, it will be difficult to use the old torture pictures effectively as a Call to Action.

--I thought it was Al Zarqawi? wow, time for a change on the scorecard yet again!

people who most often have nothing to offer as intelligence and frequently are in the prison due to faulty intelligence, random raids, lack of interpreters, bureaucratic slipups, etc.

Here's a question I haven't seen answered (at least, without bias). What percentage of the prisoners who were abused really were "innocent", and which ones were "guilty"? Were 90% of the prisoners just in the wrong place at the wrong time, or would 90% of the prisoners gladly blow themselves up on a crowded schoolbus or know where the dirty bombs are going to be detonated?

I think that actually makes a difference.

Barry
so there's been a sense of public closure on the atrocities under his rule.

As you say, though, he isn't really gone. I won't be happy until the Iraqis have a government that is responsive to the people. My main concern towards that is our ability to sustain the effort in the face of our political infighting. (And if Kerry is elected, there is no doubt the Right will be tearing him up all the time. I have no delusions about our political system)

It's been fun. Thanks.

calibar
more people in the US might demand...

Ah, so it was aimed at me, maybe I don't have delusions of grandeur after all.

Eric Blair: MJT, didn't think I'd see you jump on the manufactured outrage bandwagon.

What's manufactured about it? Maybe you aren't outraged and so you can't understand how other people are? If that's the case, then I'm even happier that I published these pictures. If you are outraged yourself, then why assume that other people aren't?

It's also probably best not to try to read people's minds. Especially when you don't know them personally. Besides, I think there is plenty of evidence (see the past year and a half of my blog) to demonstrate that I'm not trying to undermine the war effort or whatever it is you're insinuating that I'm doing.

Here's a question I haven't seen answered (at least, without bias). What percentage of the prisoners who were abused really were "innocent", and which ones were "guilty"? Were 90% of the prisoners just in the wrong place at the wrong time, or would 90% of the prisoners gladly blow themselves up on a crowded schoolbus or know where the dirty bombs are going to be detonated?

--according to Taguba, 70-90% have no intelligence value. probably a good no. of the prisoners would perhaps take up arms in the resistance after being imprisoned and tortured for no apparent reason. i'm not sure what Barry would do as a result of such a situation, but it's not hard to imagine one moving toward that position in that situation. these are, presumably, scenarios that interrogators are supposed to think about, not to mention intelligent military strategists, especially when engaging in an illegal and unwelcome occupation.

Where should the rights of the police end, and the rights of the accused begin? I'm not talking Abu Grabe, I mean anywhere.

I have a group of hippie friends who live together, about, oh, 6 or 7 guys. Now some of these guys smoke pot, some of them have sold pot in the past (and gone to jail for it). I stopped by their house yesterday and 2 were there. Their front door was busted in, their windows had been broken (all of them including an antique stained glass piece that was original in the house). One had a knot on his head.

It seems that our City's finest decided that 6 hippies living together == a drug house. Since none of them sell drugs these days (and haven't in quite some time) this was obviously not based on evidence, but apparently based on a hunch. Twenty Five Men in Blue surrounded and then burst into the home. One of the guys was shot with a wooden projectile in the head (from outside before the police broke in), he was the only person on the main floor, and had no weapons whatsoever. Their entire house was tossed and when we showed up to see one of our friends, the place looked as though it had been vandalized.

They had a Pepsi machine in their kitchen, the police sledgehammered it and left it in pieces. Couches were upturned, bedframes were destroyed (I have no idea why), and their dog was impounded. The police found a small bag of weed (obviously personal use) on one guy. Thats it.

For three hours my friends were kept in custody, paraded in front of the neighborhood, cuffed, and hauled away. Since there was nothing found, they were later released a few blocks away from their home and were "free to go".

Why the hell not torture Prisoners of War? I mean if, without evidence, we are able to invade a home, destroy property and shoot unarmed citizens(even if it was a wood bullet), why not treat those we are at war with even worse?

I haven't smoked pot in a long time, but seeing my friends harassed and vandalized by this War on Some Drugs is nearly enough to make me smoke as an act of civil disobedience. I don't know if any of you have smoked pot, I don't imagine many of you will sympathize with the individuals, but let me tell you (as a person who used to smoke lots of high quality pot)... Pot is not a drug that makes people violent, in fact it makes people calm and somewhat lazy (chilled out). Pot is not worse for your health than tobacco, in fact, since Pot doesn't have the 'extra' chemicals thrown in that ciggerettes do, it not as bad for you. One also smokes less pot that tobacco (a joint, comparable in weight to a single cigerette would usually be shared by 4 or 5 people). There is not a single recorded incident of death attributed to marijuana. In fact, only alcohol and Soma (Fly Agaric mushrooms) have an older recorded history, in none of those mellenia of usage has any society determined that it was damaging to the health or well-being of the individual. In fact, Geroge Washington grew hemp, and took special care with one section, seperating the males and females (the only reason this would be done is to increase THC and blooming of the females).

Unlike alcohol and tobacco, marijuana has never been linked to any disease (such as cancer or cirrhosis of the liver). Unlike cocaine, crack, meth, or PCP, it does not incite violence, violent action, or the 'unstoppable' characteristics that are associated with these other chemicals. Unlike Datura, Belladonna, Henbane, and some other psychoactives, it is not possible to overdose on Marijuana.

Why would a drug such as that require a force such as it did? You guess is as good as mine.

I know this was a rant, sorry.

Ratatosk

Barry
"I think the problem is Saddam, his sons, and his regime are gone, so there's been a sense of public closure on the atrocities under his rule."

The sense of closure among Iraqis hasn't been as great as some people think though. Saddam had near-absolute control over Iraq for decades, the trauma that he inflicted on that country isn't going to go away in just one year. We have Saddam captive and his sons are dead, but ordinary Iraqis will still take an instinctive look over their shoulders before talking about him. Give it a few more years and that sense of closure should be a lot more complete.

Of course, that's assuming no one worse shows up in the meantime.

Ron: My question is why we supposedly need pictures of one but not the other.

Sigh. I linked the Al Qaeda snuff film a few days ago. I have also published photos of mass graves, chemical weapons victims, ethnically cleansed villages, and piles of skulls.

Don't shoot the messenger.

We have Saddam captive and his sons are dead, but ordinary Iraqis will still take an instinctive look over their shoulders before talking about him.

--they're far more nervous about getting shot at or picked up in a random raid by GI's these days. I hate to inform you, but Saddam's capture has only fueled resistance since it freed it of the burden of association with Saddam.

Sigh. I linked the Al Qaeda snuff film a few days ago.

--Is that the one of Zarqawi or the revised one of the Feyadeen?
BTW, given the way every time Zarqawi ends up having apparently nothing to do with every incident we assign responsibility to him for, i wonder if this one legged Zarqawi really is in Iraq after all?

Tosk: I don't imagine many of you will sympathize with the individuals

Actually, I do sympathize with the individuals.

A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who has been arrested.

Calibar: Is that the one of Zarqawi or the revised one of the Feyadeen?

I'm really sick and tired of your flip responses to every damn thing. I don't think a single person in here appreciates this kind of "debate." All you do is heckle and jeer. Knock it off.

Michael,
"A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who has been arrested."

Nice quote! I may have to make a sig out of that.

Well, at least they're alive, ok and suffered not much more physical damage than a knot on the head and some bruises. It's really a damn shame about that stained glass though, original in the house (a restored victorian place). Their wood floors are scratched badly (the kitchen especially with the remmanents of the pop machine there.

I'm just glad I didn't decide to visit my friends a few hours earlier. Otherwise there would be a very pissed squirrel ;-)

'Tosk

I'm really sick and tired of your flip responses to every damn thing. I don't think a single person in here appreciates this kind of "debate." All you do is heckle and jeer. Knock it off.

--fine, let me rephrase it and see if i can get a serious answer from you, if you're sincerely interested in serious discussion. how do you account for the discrepancy between the hype about zarqawi last week and the arrest of feyadeen? no mention of zarqawi at all in these arrest reports.

calibar,

I kept a quote I found about Zarqawi, because after reading it, I decided that I wouldn't believe anything I heard about the man, until he was found and in prison (and then there'd still be questions).

Here's the quote (from early March):

Col. Dhia Hussein of the Baghdad anti-terrorism unit said, "No witnesses have come and talked to me about Zarqawi. The only thing is that he is mentioned in the newspapers. And a $10-million reward. Who is this man? Maybe he exists - such characters exist. But to complete these operations and we don't know, it's impossible."

They don't even have concrete evidence that the man exists?! And yet, the CIA thought they knew his voice (though it didn't have the right accent).... I don't ever expect the government to be honest with us, but this whole Zarqawi issue is bizzare.

Tosk

--"nope, most iraqis would rather be able to decide their own fate instead of having it imposed from outside. not that hard to understand really"

So living under Saddam's reign was their decision and we fucked that up for them? If not, how do they get to decide their own fate? Is there a process to go through or should they have simply asked Saddam to leave? Maybe the process is underway to give them an opportunity to decide their own fate. Maybe that process is messy and awful and takes more than 2 days,but then maybe America just likes torturing innocents and stealing oil.

So living under Saddam's reign was their decision and we fucked that up for them?

--Last I checked, despite his ties with the CIA in the past and good relations with the US until the invasion of Kuwait, well, he carried an Iraqi passport. If we could let the Guatemalans or Turks or Indonesians, or Pakistanis solve their problems with ruthless dictators [I know, I know, elected dictators], it's hard to make the case that Iraqis needed our bringing in Mr. Chalabi's illegal militia to save the day.

General Jesus on Zarqawi

Tosk, I think this guy has a good take on the ironies of it all.

--Last I checked, despite his ties with the CIA in the past and good relations with the US until the invasion of Kuwait, well, he carried an Iraqi passport.

So,we were talking about the fate of Iraqis. Your position is that they were better off under Saddam because the U.S. used to like him and we generally support brutal dictators?

This bait and switch game is getting very boring.

So,we were talking about the fate of Iraqis. Your position is that they were better off under Saddam because the U.S. used to like him and we generally support brutal dictators?

--my position is that he was most brutal when we supported him in any event. so the argument that we went in there to save the people for human rights is spurious to put it mildly.
furthermore, we tolerate dictators who have as brutal or more brutal record than Saddam even had, thus making the claim that the US invaded and occupied Iraq for human rights issues even more off the wall.

Calibar,

Very cute. I'm not sure why the adminstration keeps making unsubstantiated accusations... I can't imagine its good for their image to continually revise what it is that this mysterious terrorist looks like, talks like, etc.

Even if they really think that Terrorist X (who may be named Al-Zarquai) is doing such and such, you would think they would wait on some evidence before speaking to the press. Otherwise, it looks as though either A) There is no Al-Zarquai, and the administration has fabricated a straw-man to feed the press, or B) The administration has woefully inadaquate intelligence on this fellow. If we don't have correct intelligence on the number of legs the man has, how can we have good intelligence on the deeds the man has done? Either way, it makes the Administration look bad.

And why would CIA linguists id a non-jordanian voice as belonging to a Jordanian? It's not even something that can be considered a close call (no, I don't know this personally, I'm basing it off of comments made by a friend who is ex-navy intel and served in Iraq during the last big offensive. He listened and said that the voice clearly wasn't from a Jordanian (he's conservativbe, pro-bush and pro-war)....

Curiouser and Curiouser

Ratatosk, The Cheshire Squirrel of Discord

Here's a good summary of disinformation campaigns in Iraq compiled by USAF Colonel (Ret.) Sam Gardiner

My sense is the Zarqawi phantom is a part of all this psyops gone amuk business as the occupation continues to fail.

old KGB joke. A bunch of Soviet government
officials went on a bear hunting expedition. They were wandering
through the woods all day but did not find any bears. Disappointed,
they decided to go home, but then noticed that one of their colleagues,
the KGB boss, is missing. So they started looking for him and after a
while they saw him talking to a rabbit tied to a tree. "What the hell
are you doing with that rabbit?" they asked. "Extracting confession
that he is a bear" - answered the KGB guy.

--my position is that he was most brutal when we supported him in any event. so the argument that we went in there to save the people for human rights is spurious to put it mildly.
furthermore, we tolerate dictators who have as brutal or more brutal record than Saddam even had, thus making the claim that the US invaded and occupied Iraq for human rights issues even more off the wall.

Ok, I thought we were talking about the fate of the Iraqis and if they were better off under Saddam. Anyway.

So... back in 2001 a couple of planes were hijacked and flown into some buildings in NY and D.C. you may remember that?
To prevent that from happening again we decided to invade Afghanistan which by the way was also supposedly ruled by a U.S. backed dictatorship. In furtherance of the "War on Terror" we invaded iraq. In doing so, we hope to kill about 4 birds with one stone. Besides establishing a free democratic society in the middle of terrorist disneyland and eliminating an ongoing threat, we removed a brutal dictator. Long term I believe this is a good thing for Iraqis. Is it not? Will our action, long term, help or hurt Iraqis? I think help.

And by the way, if Honduras sat on top of the worlds supply of oil and kept producing terrorists bent on our destruction, I would be in favor of invading one of their neighbors (Guatamala) if it also removed an ongoing threat, created a free and democratic society in a region full of rougue dictatorships and ousted a ruthless dictor. But then again if I lived in fantasyland their would only be nice things and sun shiny days.

Ok, I thought we were talking about the fate of the Iraqis and if they were better off under Saddam. Anyway.

--well, if you can convince most Iraqis right now that they are doing better now than they were a year ago, hey, all power to ya. some tens of thousands of deaths later, countless thousands of innocents imprisoned, who knows how many tortured, cities in war ruins, etc. i think you'd have a hard argument that this is liberation. a hard argument to make to most Iraqis that is. Surely the CNN/FOX informed Americans might still buy such ideas.
-------------------------------
So... back in 2001 a couple of planes were hijacked and flown into some buildings in NY and D.C. you may remember that?

--hold it, you just said we were talking about human rights in Iraq, now we're switching to 911? oh, you're one of the americans who still believes saddam was involved in 911. ok.
----------------------------------
Besides establishing a free democratic society in the middle of terrorist disneyland and eliminating an ongoing threat, we removed a brutal dictator. Long term I believe this is a good thing for Iraqis. Is it not? Will our action, long term, help or hurt Iraqis? I think help.

--well, CNN/FOX have tried there best to convince us of that, but it's not really quite turning out that way after all. not even close. stay tuned.
--------------------------------

And by the way, if Honduras sat on top of the worlds supply of oil and kept producing terrorists bent on our destruction,

--now we're really far from the human rights issue, but since you've veered, I'll follow. Let's see, what terrorists did Iraq send over to the US on 911? I forgot, spacey me.

Note to MJT: Re: It happens in the U.S., and also in France and Canada, too

I can't find the official figures, but I've known several people who passed through the Canadian penal system, and while there are definitely abuses, the consensus was that the US prison system was pretty much a nightmare compared to that of Canada. Rape seems to be epidemic in the US system, for example, while there is little tolerance of it in the Canadian system.

Any system of incarceration can have abuses, as there seems to be some bad wiring in the human brain that kicks in when there are these kind of power arrangements. Processes, organizational policies, and training keep abuses at bay, and that seems to be the failure that has allowed the Iraq abuse cases.

I think it's unfortunate that these kids are going to take the blame for what was a massive institutional failure.

Michael, keep publishing your outrage, and what causes it. As someone said earlier, the cat's out of the bag and eating the furniture, so any benefit regarding troop safety that might have come from supressing the pictures is long gone.

double-plus-ungood, I'm not at all giving the creeps in the picture a pass on this. Some of their peers came forward (one can assume at some personal risk) and blew the whistle, so it's not just the system at fault here; individuals chose how to act.

On the other hand, the penal system (domestic and military) does seem to be massively screwed up, and to encourage bad behavior. So yeah, these pictures need to be published and re-published until we as a society get our act together and fix the problems.

--now we're really far from the human rights issue, but since you've veered, I'll follow. Let's see, what terrorists did Iraq send over to the US on 911? I forgot, spacey me.

So Iraqis are better off under Saddam?

Yeah, I veered.

What a load of sanctimonious crap. "The only reason there is even a chance this sort of thing will come to an end is because these pictures are out in the public." The pictures emerged after the judicial process was under way.

Calibur "countless thousands of innocents imprisoned"

"Okay, fine. Here's some commentary then now that I've had a chance to argue and think about it." What's the word for that? It's either justification or rationalization. Not sure. Anyway reasoning after the fact. Imprudent. Not thoughtful. Reactive. Impulse driven. Other determined. Usefull idiot?

Mark double-plus-ungood, I'm not at all giving the creeps in the picture a pass on this. Some of their peers came forward (one can assume at some personal risk) and blew the whistle, so it's not just the system at fault here; individuals chose how to act.

You might want to check out the now-famous (or infamous) Stanford Prison Experiment (also on Wikipedia). As psychologist on CNN pointed out this morning, most of us, put into similar circumstances, would probably commit the same crimes. Some don't, and fall into the whistleblower category, but most normal people do. Weird but true.

And yeah, they have to be punished, at least to demonstrate that this stuff isn't taken lightly. Too bad that top-level incompetence isn't similarily punished, as theirs was the greater crime in failing to prevent well-established and predictable human failings.

Calibur "countless thousands of innocents imprisoned"

--oh, i forgot the reference. Taguba, ICRC, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch.
Also the many comments from soldiers and Iraqi citizens about the random nature of raids, lack of interpreters, infiltration of US military, lousy intelligence, etc.

So Iraqis are better off under Saddam?

--the thousands who were killed unncessarily in the past year were probably better off, i think it's a matter of perspective surely.
more and more iraqis are saying that they were better off under saddam, that alone tells you how bad things have gotten in the last year. then again, i can't imagine much else could have been expected from an illegal and unwelcome occupation by occupiers who have no sense of the region's history or politics outside of FOX/CNN soundbites.

double-plus-ungood, I'm not at all giving the creeps in the picture a pass on this. Some of their peers came forward (one can assume at some personal risk) and blew the whistle, so it's not just the system at fault here; individuals chose how to act.

--by now it's transparently clear it's not a matter of a few bad apples, nor is it isolated--indeed it seems rather widespread given the extent of investigations belatedly going on, the high numbers of prisoners being released with similar tales, etc.
-------------------------------

Mark,

Good comment! I agree that we need to fix the problem. But how does one fix a problem with the Law Enforcement, Prison system? The mindset of most Americans seems to be that if the police are harassing you, raid you, arrest you, you probably deserve it. I heard one guy a couple weeks ago actually argue that prison rape and guard mistreatment should be OK, because it will help the criminal reform.

I certianly have no answers.. its not like we can retaliate, and certianly the chekcs and balances that should be in place, aren't or aren't working.

Besides, not only do we have serious problems with the arrest and containment system... but once these people get out, there is no good system to reintegrate them into society.

I met someone recently who spent 12 years in prison. He had gone to recieve pyschiatric help because he had molested (touching) one of his children. He realized that it wwas a problem and tried to get help. He was arrested and sent to jail. OK, he commited a crime, he was punished. His behaviour was such that he was released 3 years early.

When he found out he was going to be released, he asked his sister if he could stay there until he could get his own place. She agreed, the parole officer agreed, and out he went. Two days later, they decided that since he is a sex offender, he was too close to a school at that location, and was told he had to move. The guy has been in prison for 12 years, has no money or job or property. He moved in with one of my friends (an old frined of his). A few days later however, the apartment complex he lives in told him that the fellow couldn't live in the complex. They recieved many posts of hate mail stuck to the door and were threatened several times.

The man now has nowhere to live and is moving every couple days between places, since he is allowed to be in either of these locations for 3 days at a time.

As an aside, he is also not permitted to engage in any sexual act without telling his parole officer, even if its with a girlfriend... every time.

Where does one even begin to fix such things, its a modern Les Mis.

'Tosk

There's another news story (link lost) about a Marine officer who told his troops they were not to take pictures of Iraqi dead, and he had them bring the bodies back for a proper Muslim burial.

These cretins posing as guards - I'd say that their actions, and publicizing of them, tend to give "aid and comfort to the enemy".

Calibar--

As usual you are wrong and reading the situation selectively. First, these idiots in the prison were in a wing with hardened criminal/terrorist types--not the general population that is represented by the 90% figure you cited. Second of all, they were not interrogators, they were sadists or perverts. Professional interrogators do not use the sorts of "techniques" depicted in the photos for a simple reason: they don't work. Third of all, the idiots in question were disobeying orders; in the U.S. Army anything not specifically authorized is prohibited. I have not heard any reports of authorizing the use of a broom handle to rip a prisoner a new one.

Give it a rest.

As usual you are wrong and reading the situation selectively. First, these idiots in the prison were in a wing with hardened criminal/terrorist types--not the general population that is represented by the 90% figure you cited.

--well, actually, no, i'm not wrong. read Taguba, listen to testimony from soldiers and the prisoners. they don't even have enough translators on the job there, gimme a break, how can they have any idea who these prisoners are and what they are held for? be serious. hardened criminal/terrorist types, sure. isn't it fascinating that the Taguba report states clearly that they have no intelligence value? but in your book that makes them terrorists? i'm back to believing in angels and devils if what you say is even remotely close to reality.
---------------------------

Second of all, they were not interrogators, they were sadists or perverts. Professional interrogators do not use the sorts of "techniques" depicted in the photos for a simple reason: they don't work.

--inaccurate again. they were mps and interrogators/intelligence agents involved in these sordid affairs at numerous prisons.
---------------------------

Third of all, the idiots in question were disobeying orders; in the U.S. Army anything not specifically authorized is prohibited. I have not heard any reports of authorizing the use of a broom handle to rip a prisoner a new one.

--yeah, i'm sure they just came up with that and the "Vietnam torture" episode seen in the infamous electrodes photo...all on their own!

Double-Plus, I'm familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment. If anything, I think people underestimate the importance of the findings there; I think the underlying mechanisms that caused the "guards'" actions can be used to explain a lot of herd-like behaviors. I posted on it here if you're interested.

As you point out, Canada apparently doesn't have the problems we have. Why? The characteristics of whatever goes into being a "guard" may be different to the Canadian culture than it is in the American culture. Or it could be better discipline, or lower prison populations, or something.

Whatever the case, I agree higher-ups need to be punished at least as severely as the grunts. Discipline in the prison was obviously shot to hell, even if there wasn't an overt policy of degredation. And the same lessons should be brought home to our domestic prisons.

Tosk, my opinion on how we might change the problem at home: First we need a press as hungry to root out evil here at home as it is eager to black the eye of Imperial America (i.e. Bush). Second, IMHO all the non-violent drug offenders (buyers, small-time dealers without weapons convictions, etc.) need to be released. Now. Our prison populations are huge, and that's got to play into the abusive culture.

But we won't get real reform without a press willing to tackle the problem. Maybe if they stop thinking of Oz as good drama and start thinking of it as an indication of a problem, they will.

BTW, your friend's friends situation sounds like hell on earth.

--oh, i forgot the reference. Taguba, ICRC, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch.

"Countless thousands of innocents imprisoned".

Im sure I did not look in all reports, but I cant find those words in any report.

Did someone get to 700,000 and just get bored and stop counting?

Calibur, would you like to see George Bush tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

I think its a fantasy that you can have war without warriors reveling in the death of their enemies.

These soldiers are in danger every day, overworked, and extremely stressed. These pictures only show happiness at the death of an enemy, they dont show how he died.

Brutality and war go hand in hand. To act suprised is to acknowledge your historical ignorance of war. This brutality should have been factored into the decision to go to war to begin with.

Dave, if the pictures are from Abu Ghraib, your argument doesn't hold up. These guards weren't in combat, and gloating over these corpses (especially if they were prisoners) is cold-blooded evil.

Mark,

"First we need a press as hungry to root out evil here at home as it is eager to black the eye of Imperial America (i.e. Bush)."

I agree. It seems that investigative journalism here at home focuses on shady business activity to the exclusion of anything else. And those are usually terribly exaggerated.

"Second, IMHO all the non-violent drug offenders (buyers, small-time dealers without weapons convictions, etc.) need to be released. Now. Our prison populations are huge, and that's got to play into the abusive culture."

I had always thought that Prisons were where dangerous people went, so that society would be protected. Instead, I find that they seem to be the governments version of "Go stand in the corner". Pot smoker, murderer, rapist, thief, everybody into the corner. And the bully from your school will make sure you stay there!"

ugh.

"But we won't get real reform without a press willing to tackle the problem. Maybe if they stop thinking of Oz as good drama and start thinking of it as an indication of a problem, they will."

I agree that we need the press to want reform... but we need the government as well. Bush and the DOJ are pushing the "War on Some Drugs", they should be pushing the "War on Bad Cops" too. I know that cops have a hard job, they risk their life often and get crappy pay. If a person has a gun are are whacked out on PCP, and try to attack, run from, harm the officers, they get whatever they get. I don't mind the use of force when necessary. It just seems that the Police these days (at least in this area) can't differentiate between a crack addict with a sub machine gun and two unarmed guys hanging out at home.

"BTW, your friend's friends situation sounds like hell on earth."

Yeah, i'm surprised how well hes dealing with it. He simply accepts it as the consequences of his actions. I( agree... but there should be some sort of balance, once your "debt" to society is paid.

I think that political blogs would probably have much more rational discussions if the topics were about specific issues, instead of the latest headlines from the biased-left, biased-right, tabloid-american-journalism. News headlines and stories covered in the news are designed to provoke an emotional response. Discussing general issues (prison conditions, police improprity, gun control/conceal and carry, etc.), might allow cooler heads to discuss. Besides, posters couldn't just spout what they heard from Rush or Nader on the way into work, maybe they'd think for themselves ;-)

Tosk

'Tosk

dave I think its a fantasy that you can have war without warriors reveling in the death of their enemies.

As long as it's not the enemy reveling over the bodies of your guys, right?

dave These pictures only show happiness at the death of an enemy, they dont show how he died.

Died from head injuries during interrogation. And would you want someone doing this with the body of one of your own soldiers? Iraqi insurgents grinning and laughing over the body of a soldier who died in their captivity? THAT should be the measure of how acceptable this is.

Mark These guards weren't in combat...

Abu Ghraib was attacked by mortar a number of times, and there were a number of US deaths there. Doesn't excuse anything, in my books, but just FYI.

"Died from head injuries during interrogation."

DAMN! They must have made him think very hard.

If a prisoner dies, isn't there some sort of examination, report, something? If there is, why didn't something pop up and say:

"Death by interrogation head injuries"
WARNING - THIS IS NOT NORMAL

I mean, thats pretty sloppy work if an inmate gets killed by beatings and no one gets suspicious.

But, What Do I Know?

"tosk

Michael Totten--

I'm sorry, but Calibar is a pointless troll. His answers are flippant and supercilious. His arguments are constructed at the grade school level. He brandishes little memes like a sword, though they have the rhetorical impact of a plastic fork. Worse, his repetitive posts take up too many lines and require too much scrolling. He's like the little kid in class who won't shut up but actually has nothing to say.

I will check back in a month or so to see if he has disappeared. But for serious thinkers, this board has become too tiresome.

Ponder this

If the idea of airing these pictures is to promote outrage and a sense of commitment to solve the problem, I think you are a little naive. The outrage I feel is that they were aired in public at the wrong time.
They certainly aren't surprising. They would seem quite acceptable to the mainstream public since our culture of lurid websites and graphic magazines seem to attract a wider and wider audience here in America. Isn't that #1 in website volume?
Throw in a little power and control that guards could get used to, and there you have it.
But is this the time for self flagellation? Is is so important that we must make it the number one issue. I truly believe that it hurts progress in the WoT. It should have been deferred until its impact on overseas operations would have been diminished.

Fresh Air,

A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men.

If you don't like calibur's posts... don't read his posts. It's this crazy idea I have called "personal responsibility". If you have a problem with calibur, then you should determine not to read his posts. They clearly say "calibur" on them and his post are easily identifiable. It's not Michael's job to police this board for people who may annoy you.

"The Greyface hates the Nonsensical Man, for the Greyface cannot slot him in a predefined category. Therefore he cannot process, nor understand the individual. Since the Greyface hates what he cannot understand, he will rail against nonesense. However, by nonesense you may win, for the Nonsensical Man can remain nonsensical, until his foe is beaten, while the Greyface expends all of his energy trying to slot the Nonesensical Man."

- The Book of The Sharing Non-Prophet 4223 BSE (Before Serious Era)

Ratatosk

Sorry, broken link to my take on the Stanford Prison Experiment.

Guards and Prisoners.

For what it's worth.

Dave: To act suprised is to acknowledge your historical ignorance of war. This brutality should have been factored into the decision to go to war to begin with.

Dave, I'm aware this sort of thing is sadly typical. I've read plenty of history, believe me.

Keep in mind, though, that it's also typical (from a historical perspective) that enemy women are raped and their children carted off and enslaved.

My only disagreement with publicizing additional abuse pictures is that we're still seeing the same 6-7 soldiers. I don't need to see any more Abu Graib pictures unless they are of soldiers who are not yet charged or named. The grinning faces were just as repellent in the first and second published images as they will be in the 50th. To date, I have seen no hard evidence (similar to these pictures) of a wider pattern of abuse specific to the US military. It is a hopeful possibility that now that the entire world has gone on record condeming this type of abuse, the entire world will now join forces to stop the practice, everywhere it occurs.

I agree with you KC, the set of photographs and video released to the Washington Post yesterday appear to be from the same set profiled earlier. The release feels calculated to sustain outrage and prolong its presence on the front page rather than to inform the public.

The woman by the way is Spc. Sabrina Harman, 26.

Growing up, her homicide detective dad and forensic science buff mom constantly shared with their daughter grisly crime-scene photos.

"She has been looking at autopsies and crime-scene pictures since she was a kid," Robin Harmon told the paper.

She said her daughter claims she took the photos at Abu Ghraib as evidence of the atrocities being committed there.

"Sabrina said she had to prove this," said Robin. "I told her to bring the pictures home, hide them and stay out of it."

Interesting backdrop.

Many of the worst abuses that have come to light from the Abu Ghraib prison happened on a single November day amid a flare of insurgent violence in Iraq, the deaths of many U.S. soldiers and a breakdown of the American guards' command structure.

"I can't find the official figures, but I've known several people who passed through the Canadian penal system, and while there are definitely abuses, the consensus was that the US prison system was pretty much a nightmare compared to that of Canada. Rape seems to be epidemic in the US system, for example, while there is little tolerance of it in the Canadian system."

Double plus ungood, what exactly is your point?

So you wanted some war, eh? Ever been in a streetfight? No Marquis of Queensbury applies. Ever been to court for beating the shit out of someone? The one who strikes first goes to jail. Just try selling a preemptive strike based on B.S. to the judge.

Want to know why most cops become brutish authoritarians? Read all about it in the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Experiment (indirectly cited above). Very few of us are immune, or even resistant to the influences of dehumanization of "the enemy" and the environment of incarceration.

Stanford Prison Experiment: http://www.prisonexp.org/

The Milgram Experiment:
http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm

Perhaps we should take a look at our prejudices against "sand niggers", "hadjis", and "towel heads" to see why this is both inevitable and acceptable. Take a look at this review of "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and The Holocaust", and tell me that there's not a striking parallel:
http://www.bookfinder.us/review7/0679772685.html

Michael is a good writer, but I went to one of the best America has ever produced for perspective on war, and those who are in favor of it:
http://www.lone-star.net/mall/literature/warpray.htm

mnm - my point is that abuse is not simply a product of incarceration, that it can be controlled.

Volareus: Take a look at this review of "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and The Holocaust", and tell me that there's not a striking parallel:

I read the whole book. There is no parallel. Read the book, not the review, and you'll see what I mean.

"mnm - my point is that abuse is not simply a product of incarceration, that it can be controlled."

Oh good, I mistakenly thought you may be another jerk off Canadian who wanted to point out how much better, smarter and "nicer" Canadians are.

My bad.

Did someone get to 700,000 and just get bored and stop counting?

--let me rephrase that, 'several thousand to ten thousand possibly [or more?] prisoners who have no place being prisoners of the American occupiers'...

The only reason this crap even has a chance of getting stopped is because the pictures are out in the world.

The fact that these abuses were being investigated and that most of the perps were awaiting indictment five months before the first of these pictures became public property makes the above assertion false.

"The fact that these abuses were being investigated and that most of the perps were awaiting indictment five months before the first of these pictures became public property makes the above assertion false."

No. It makes the assertion that much more true. But please think not of how great we are for getting the bad guys, see the bad guys for what they are. Sacrificial sheep to assuage public opinion so the military and The White House can move onto the next scandal.

Just as an aside, let me state that I am a psychologist who works for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The idea that any of this kind of thing happens with regularity is absurd. Yes, there are occasional incidents which occur because it's impossible to weed out all of the bad apples. But I can assure you that the government takes its responsibility of housing inmates appropriately very seriously, nd the message constantly being handed down from above is that it is not the job of the correctional worker to administer any punishment -- that was dispensed by the judge. And I would not have an instant's hesitation in reporting any coworker who I thought was acting out of bounds. I can't speak for every state system in America, but I did work in Colorado prior to going federal, and I'd tell you the same thing about that system as well. There is no systematic abuse of inmates in the federal system, at least any endorsed by management. Again, if it happens, it is generally isolated pockets who have been left lone too long. In fact, executive staff are routine relocated every couple of years in order to prevent that sort of stagnation. As far as inmate-on-inmate violence, it can be a problem, but again, I've never seen any systemic tolerance or acceptance of such conditions. I might also add that as a psychologist, I'm often the first one to hear about any complaints from inmates about these issues, because of the trust factor, and I'm telling you, it's not common.

Jerry

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