"Just as Stalin industrialized the Soviet Union, so on a different scale Saddam plotted Iraqís own Great Leap Forward,"

Reason enough to hate this enemy of humanity.

Hi Michael, it’s been a while. Anyway one could perhaps understand this line of thinking many decades ago, but post Cold War? My Grandparents used to espouse Marxist ideas back in the 1920's-1930’s before they escaped to the United States just before everything fell apart in Germany. Even they came to their senses, though they always felt an affinity for Socialism. My parents after them become much more sympathetic to Capitalism, while I have become a Hard Wilsonian Neo-liberal (Neo-conservative).

The main point is there is no excuse for Galloway in the year 2004. Unfortunately Sir Galloway has further proven what has become obvious to most sane people. The left in a most unique way displays a most blatant ends justifies the means mentality. Their love for ideology and personal power often leads to the unfortunate consequence of principles being thrown out the window. People of course become just expendable resources, especially if such people serve little purpose in advancing the cause, especially of those who uniquely benefit. This is what leads to Sir Galloway’s unfortunate comparison of Stalin industrializing the Soviet Union -> Saddam plotting Iraqis Great Leap Forward," HOW SICK!

This is just another obvious reason why I am not just critical of the left, but as far from it as I can moderately be. Good riddance! I have learned that after so many decades, I hold no hope for this to change.

Samuel,

I wouldn't use George Galloway as a poster-boy for the left. He's the hard-core fringe. Johann Hari, who wrote this review, is a British leftist himself. Remember, too, that the Labor Party did kick him out. In no way did he belong in the same party as Tony Blair.

Actually Michael according to the Political tests I am quite to the left of Tony Blair anyway. I have said my political change is more about principle than ideology. I argue way to the right than I am for many reasons. The fact is the right is more self policing. My main point however, is the left is more susceptible to ends justifies the means politics. They are less principled period, sure they have their ideology, and I am not saying cads don't exist on both sides, it is just that the right is way more apt to dispose of such. How could one not dispose of such a worthless soul who is such a political liability?

I want to see a left more principled. One that holds their own to the same standards they expect of the opposition. I want a left that doesn't claim the constitution was actually served well by Clinton, overcoming impeachment through the most unscrupulous tactics since Nixon (as bad for sure), but then in turn expect any opponent die for much less. Michael, I live in the belly of the beast here and know many people, the fact is there is no comparison. The Left’s principles are in the gutter by comparison. It is not a matter of agree of disagree on the ideology, I am more liberal than conservative. Michael, the left is so far in the hole on this one it isn’t even close. TO say otherwise would be naïve to the facts. If it were close I would say so, but it isn’t.

I hear ya, Samuel. The left is in a really bad state right now. I just need to remind you (sometimes I need to be reminded, too) that it doesn't apply to everyone.

After all, Tony Blair is left and Jacques Chirac is right. Christopher Hitchens is left and Rush Limbaugh is right. Paul Berman is left and John Ashcroft is right. I could go on.

Michael,

Some of that is apples and oranges, though, especially when you cross national boundaries. For instance, Chirac is only "right" on the scale of major French political parties--anywhere in the Anglosphere, he'd be well to the left. I think of Tony Blair as more centrist than left, although he'd fall on the left side of center.

As a followup--someone, I think on Roger L. Simon's blog, said that a key difference between America and Europe was that in America, the left is socialist, and the right is liberal; while in Europe, the left is socialist, and the right is fascist. I'd modify "America" to "the Anglosphere," and "Europe" to "continental western Europe" and agree.

Sam,

I've heard some people complain that American liberals are socialists, and I've heard others complain that European socialists are liberals.

Just something to chew on.

Well, obviously it would depend both on your perspective and your definitions. I don't think the people you mention were using the same definitions, and I sincerely doubt they were arguing from the same position.

By the way, I generally like your blog and your writing, but the comments section is a wee bit of a mess, in my opinion. I've been watching a couple of the recent threads, and find myself recognizing names and scrolling past over half of the comments.

Sam: I sincerely doubt they were arguing from the same position.

Oh, I know. I still think the contradiction is interesting, though. From where I sit, American liberals are not socialists, and neither are European "socialists."

I like how Paul Berman put it in the New York Times a while back. Socialism has finally become what it should have been all along; an ethical orientation rather than an economic how-to manual.

Michael you wrote some very nice clarifications on right/left a while back. What is considered right in America is extremely liberal by most standards in this world. I have come to consider “Great Society” socialistic tendencies to be quite illiberal. This has been a burden to true liberalism as it serves a counter purpose to true liberal ideas. Fiscal Conservatism (Neo-Liberalism) started out a Liberal idea but was replaced with the counterfeit Leftist “Great Society”. As a result the right through Reagan ended up with the credit of Milton Friedman, it needed not be that way. There are many examples of where the left hijacks the liberal.

Another example: Civil Rights was truly liberal, Affirmative Action is not! Guarantying equal access is liberal, forced quotas is not! I could go on but once principles are sacrificed for the end result, the lines of demarcation become very blurry. This is the main problem. The left has won many arguments, just like Republicans have. Ironically Nixon and Clinton did some of the most crossovers (Nixon with Regulation, Endangered Species Act etc., Clinton with Neo-Liberal fiscal policy and Welfare Reform etc.)

The left argues out of context to the times. The moral equivocating is staggering and leads to justifying the unjustifiable. Comparisons of Bush with Hitler, Saddam, you name it. They argue yesterday’s arguments as if they were as relevant today. They argue Civil Rights as if it were still stuck in1960’s with little progress is an insult. The fact is many of my prejudiced family members would say many in the South are racist bigots only because they are arguing the past, yesterday’s arguments, that is the way it was 30 years ago. Even my own Father has rebuked this asking “Then why is the South less racist the more Republican it has become? This is my beef. What was the last new idea from the left implemented? I would say since Nixon very little if any. Clinton finished much of the Republicans work and I am glad he did. But to what end are the liberal-left going? When the liberals truly handle the hard-left with the same deftness the conservatives the right, then I will consider much, I am not holding my breath.

Also remember Michael that as any person moving from one position to another, I am still pointing out why, I will never be the hack for the right I was for the left. I am just still very hard and critical of the left because they have ruined what is truly liberal. It is the left I hate. There is a difference. The Republicans are as liberal as Democrats. There are many liberal constitutional principles they fight for that the left finds as expendable things to trample under their feet. Bottom line, the left has ruined the liberal as it concerns the Democratic Party. Also Tony Blair's policies are actually politically to the right of center.

Michael,

I'm from California, and believe me, some of our "liberals" out here are socialists--and they'd proudly claim the label, too! =)

Can you explain why some would call European socialists "liberals?" I take it that no compliment is intended here, but I don't get the thrust of the critique.

Samuel,

I've been lurking on Roger's blog for the past little while (didn't feel I had much to add to the discussion), but I've enjoyed reading your comments. Is Samuel your middle name? (Mine is.)

I'm not sure I agree that Tony Blair is right of center, other than prioritizing his trans-Atlantic relationship with the U.S. above his cross-Channel relationships on the European continent. I haven't heard that he was a big fan of Margaret Thatcher's privatization programs, for instance. What leads you to that conclusion?

Sam: Can you explain why some would call European socialists "liberals?" I take it that no compliment is intended here, but I don't get the thrust of the critique.

It means they no longer want to destroy the market economy. Look at the new Spanish prime minister. His economic policies are basically the same as those of the Spanish conservatives. Old school unreconstructed Marxists are offended by this. Liberals and small-s "socialists" are not.

Ah, I see. I figured it was from something like that perspective, but I didn't think anyone took "old school unreconstructed Marxists" seriously anymore. (Sort of the flip side of the "but nobody I know voted for Reagan!" story, I guess.)

Lets not take Gorgeous George as representative of anything in the Labour Party (my party - for all its faults). He is truly a fool.

He isn't even representative of the Left.

He coddles dictators, the left usually doesn't - witness the Labour Party's long campaigns in the 80s against arms sales to Iraq whilst the Right was asking just quite how much nerve gas/machine tools/radars they wanted thankyou very much. Sound familiar. Our Right (Mrs T) supported Aparteid for goodness sakes (through not supporting sanctions even though the declining RSA economy was a key element in bringing the regime to its senses). The Young Conservatives had a 'Kill Nelson Mandela Song' for goodness sakes.

In Europe I try to stay as far away from the Right (most of it - its largely repugnant - with some honourable exceptions) and the extreme Left (just as bad). Being a centre left social democrat is a nice, effective place to be.

Now if only you guys had employed the Powell Doctrine to nobble Saddam instead of the Rumsfeld Doctrine things would look alot better in Iraq and for my PM.

Thanks

Neil

I'd be curious if this guy misrepresents Galloway's arguments as you misrepresented Savoy's arguments?

Hmm, I think you're curious regardless.

Even if they don't have the desire to destroy the market economy, is that important when the end result of leftist policies really does throw a wrench into the marketplace? I really think that calling socialism an "ethical orientation" is a gigantic mistake. Often, it's merely class warfare, envy stalking as compassion, and entrenctment of workers on the government dole. Pure power politics, really. That shouldn't be considered ethical.

is that important when the end result of leftist policies really does throw a wrench into the marketplace?

--you mean your option in the 1930's, say, would have been to let unemployment grow as the market saw fit? you do understand the implications of such a policy, no?
-------------------------------------
Often, it's merely class warfare, envy stalking as compassion, and entrenctment of workers on the government dole.

--but it's ok for the gov't to bailout savings and loans fraudsters or finaciers who made bad loans to East Asia in the 1990's. I see.
---------------------------------

Liberal and Conservative as descriptive terms have become so muddled they're nearly useless. On the other hand, lots of people think of themselves as Liberal and Conservative, so until one or both descriptions become totally debased we're going to be stuck with them.

I'm perfectly happy seeing those who call themselves Liberal jettison Galloway. More power to the Conservatives who hounded Trent Lott to back-bench status. Movements need to recognize their monsters and deal with them, or have the monsters eat them whole.

Conservatives seem a little more supple at cleaning house, probably because the set of values most closely associated with them has only recently become ascendent. When you're on the outside looking in, you've got to be sharper to get a word in edgewise. You've got to lose the dogmas that just won't hunt anymore. You get less judgemental of the other outcasts, while you get better at recognizing the things that will truly threaten your cause.

Liberals may be slower in dealing with the changing environment simply because they've been on the winning side so often over the last 40 years. Samuel is right, in this country at least we have come a very long way since 1960. I'm in an interracial relationship, and my blue collar family in West Virginia is honestly as pleased as punch with TheGirl. When the Dixie Chicks can confuse pissing off their fans with suppression of speech, it shows we don't have a supression of speech problem. The Liberal Agenda as embodied by Martin Luther King Jr. won. I'm good with that, and I think the vast majority of America, Right and Left, is good with it too.

Samuel brings up a great point. What new idea has the Left implemented lately? The most effective (in this country) has been Welfare Reform (the mention of which will start witchhunts on the more dogmatic lefty sites). So as a movement, what do you do when you've pretty much kicked ass and taken over the place?

You man the walls against the barbarians and hunt down heretics, that's what.

Any group who would kick an Andrew Sullivan or a Christopher Hitchens out of their club for the sin of an independent viewpoint needs to worry about its intellectual health.

The least interesting arguments from the Left against the WoT are the "well, the current Junta is just as bad as the bad guys" and "you guys didn't fight them in the past, why should we let you fight them now." It all boils down to the mental construct that both the [neo-Con, Texas Mafia, oil companies, Haliburton, etc... choose one or more] group and Saddam are outside the Walls of the Left, and to hell with them both.

I'm not saying the self-identified Right doesn't have it's tribal moments, but the loosely defined movement seems both more flexible and more able to effectively police itself. The level of internecine squabbling seems lower, and the ability to look outside conventional wisdom and honestly assess a situation by different parameters seems stronger.

calibar,

I'll talk to you when you stop constructing straw-man arguments. Since you lack reading comprehension, I'll state plainly: I never said a damn thing about a S&L bailout.

However, I do accept your straw-man arguments as a classic changing of the topic which points to a weak argument. Thanks for conceeding that socialism isn't ethical in the slightest.

Since you lack reading comprehension, I'll state plainly: I never said a damn thing about a S&L bailout.

--It's funny how you folks argue. when someone raises some other form of 'government dependency', you immediately screech, "off-topic!!" or "i didn't say anything about that!".
take it as a challenge, instead, ok, you say you're against gov't dependency, well, what about much bigger forms of dependency like corporate aid, aid for foreign investments overseas, savings and loans bailouts, etc. they are, after all, forms of 'gov't dependency'. or is it an accident that the only or primary form of dependency the free marketers are angry about is some imagined worker who 'doesn't work'.
------------------------------
However, I do accept your straw-man arguments as a classic changing of the topic which points to a weak argument. Thanks for conceeding that socialism isn't ethical in the slightest.

--that's a copout, no strawman at all. assuming your position, you should be more outraged by the bailouts of the Bush family after the S&L crisis than over workers who could never dream of landing such help from the gov't. ditto financiers on wall st. who stood to lose millions if they weren't bailed out during the East Asian Financial Crisis, Mexican Bailouts, etc. Never heard free marketers spending a lot of energy screaming about those kinds of things.

And you say you're against intervention. ok, so you prefer the way things were in the pre-depression era, cyclical depressions, crashes, massive lost, redistribution of wealth upward, concentration of wealth in conglomerates that clean up,...do you really think that the average american is ready to go back in time to such things?

Calibar,

George Galloway was on Saddam Hussein's payroll. Yet you come along and blindly stick up for him, probably without even reading the article I linked to. (An article that was written by a British leftist, no less.) Then again, you did say you trusted Saddam Hussein to an extent, at least enough to "do business" with him, to use Kofi Annan's term for "negotiation."

Do you have any idea how this stuff comes across to the rest of us? Try to moderate your views just a tad and see what happens. It won't turn you into a right-wing death beast just to move a notch or two toward the center.

When the Dixie Chicks can confuse pissing off their fans with suppression of speech, it shows we don't have a supression of speech problem.

--really? their sales have been doing great, especially in light of a considerable corporate sponsored effort (i.e. that little company called "Clear Channel") to boycott. the boycott failed, almost all their performances in the last year have sold out, etc. not sure about those 'pissed off fans' there. Maybe they pissed off CC, CNN/FOX, or the like, but not her fans, at least not from the sales of their albums and concerts.

Then again, you did say you trusted Saddam Hussein to an extent, at least enough to "do business" with him, to use Kofi Annan's term for "negotiation."

--hmm. yet we can do business with the Saudi kingdom, the Pakistanis, Libya [finally], etc. please clarify the difference.
--------------------------------
George Galloway was on Saddam Hussein's payroll. Yet you come along and blindly stick up for him, probably without even reading the article I linked to. (An article that was written by a British leftist, no less.)

--well, we read all kinds of funny accusations of leftists that don't agree with Blair/Bush's war, most of which are just nonsense. the payroll accusations are very shaky at best. Galloway was despised by Blair because he consistently took apart Blairs' fake rationales for the invasion of Iraq. Heck, we've heard from you that Savoy said that third party interventions were out, and that's plainly not what he said. why should i trust 'leftists' whose agenda is primarily to help bolster Blair's alliance with Bush in an unnecessary military adventure? I'd think there would be better targets for leftists.
I'm reminded of Hitchens' pathetic attempts to tag the 'left' with 'support for AQ', a smear that is plainly lacking in any evidence. Yet he went with it, it sounded good I guess.

calibar, for every fan the Dixie Chicks lost, they picked up one of your fellow travelers who bought a CD to strike a blow against The Man.

Ain't the free market great?

BTW, Samuel, you really need to get a blog, man. I would read it.

Any group who would kick an Andrew Sullivan or a Christopher Hitchens out of their club for the sin of an independent viewpoint needs to worry about its intellectual health.

I think the kickings-out were the normal functioning of leftism. Leftism can't have intellectual health, as it has no intellect. It is merely a one-principled mechanism, like a mousetrap, whereas an intellect encompasses many principles of value and designs ornate ways of satisfying as many of them as possible over the long haul. Leftism's one principle is to eliminate economic inequalities. Hitchins and Sullivan did things which credited Republicans; this goes against the principle, and thus the reflexive kickings-out. Snap!

Meanwhile people of intellect, be they somewhat to the left of center or somewhat to the right, attempt to discover ways of satisfying a long list of values: helping the innocently destitute, maximizing liberty, increasing wealth, preventing tyranny, etc.

Say, one question: How come you get to be a Stalinist and still be accepted as a player in the Western European and American political arena, whereas being a Nazi is not allowed? No free passes for Stalinists, please. Galloway ought to get the David Duke treatment: universal scorn.

calibar, for every fan the Dixie Chicks lost, they picked up one of your fellow travelers who bought a CD to strike a blow against The Man.

--maybe in a paranoid fantasy scenario, but when I read news reports of their crowds, they were of fans who had been to their concerts before and were excited to see them again.
-------------------------
Ain't the free market great?

--sure it is. god bless howard stern, eh? he he..

I think the kickings-out were the normal functioning of leftism.

--this is a masterful rewriting of history. as i recall Hitchens voluntarily resigned from The Nation, the editor pleaded with him to stay on, fellow writers did likewise (though god knows why, i can't imagine an anti-war columnist staying on very long at National Review, Phil Donahue couldn't even last at MSNBC even though his ratings were higher than his MSNBC colleagues [!]).
This episode then gets rewritten as "Hitch kicked out by left". Amazing, where do such paranoid fantasies come from. I don't even hear Hitch engaging in such victimology.

Galloway took bribes, really? Not according to a right leaning moderate newspaper

Last I heard, both Galloway and Stern have all their original body parts.

Unlike those who didn't agree with your man Saddam.

Don't construe this as a support for the FCC vendetta against Stern. But here we were, talking about the line between dissent and madness, and your knee-jerk reaction is to support madness as long as it's not on the side of TheMan™.

calibar, you really could be replaced by a program that scanned for certain phrases, cross-referenced a rebuttal database, and posted the result. That would even explain the idiosyncratic grammer and punctuation.

Try building a case sometime instead of Pee Wee Herman-esque taunting.

Unlike those who didn't agree with your man Saddam.

--well, yeah, but what about Bush's man Mullah Omar or what about Kimmits friend Sadr or the Fallujah "foreign" fighters? they seem ok as negotiating partners. what gives?

calibar, you really could be replaced by a program that scanned for certain phrases, cross-referenced a rebuttal database, and posted the result. That would even explain the idiosyncratic grammer and punctuation.

--like i said, when you don't have a counterargument, resort to the "you never give an answer" mantra.

Mark, any explanation for your Hitch as victim fantasy?

calibar:

"you say you're against gov't dependency...."

"And you say you're against intervention...."

I said none of those things, Mr. I Can't Read. I said the following: "Even if they don't have the desire to destroy the market economy, is that important when the end result of leftist policies really does throw a wrench into the marketplace?"

I said it in the context of discussing whether socialism can be considered ethical, instead of a power grab or envy. I'm not talking economics, Mr. Context Isn't My Middle Name.

However, to satisfy your imagination about what I possibly think, if you must know, I'm against corporate subsidies and bailouts as well.

For your information, I'm a securities lawyer. Most of my time is spent dealing with SEC regulations of BIG BUSINESSES. For the most part, these regulations do little to affect the industry. But we do it to satisfy the government. An ironic thing which the public doesn't know is, most of the things banned by the various securities laws put in place after the Great Depression are allowed in some form under rules adopted by the SEC. In large part, the rules haven't changed all that much. And if you don't need public financing, you can really do anything you want with your company.

I don't have a problem with market regulation since for the most part it's just another cost of doing business. My question was geared towards the MORAL CALCULUS of what happens when intervention is AUTOMATICALLY seen as a good thing, instead of a cost that might add up over time and impose inefficiencies to the market (both workers, owners, higher costs, etc).

But, since you're a hysterical assumptionist, I'm not surprised you lost the greater context of my post and started assuming that I'm in favor of some idiotic S&L bailout. Sheesh... I guess the left really has lost all reason.

"Even if they don't have the desire to destroy the market economy, is that important when the end result of leftist policies really does throw a wrench into the marketplace?"

--decoded, what you're saying is 'government intervention throws a wrench into the marketplace'. tell it to leading corporations listed on wall street, see what they think of unregulated markets.
-------------------------------
I said it in the context of discussing whether socialism can be considered ethical, instead of a power grab or envy. I'm not talking economics,

--sure it's a power grab, no different than free marketers help out with a power grab for the billionaires club. big deal, what else is politics about other than power? in the post-depression era there's been a consensus that veered away from the pre-depression era of let power be concentrated in the hands of the few, let wealth move upward.
-------------------------------
However, to satisfy your imagination about what I possibly think, if you must know, I'm against corporate subsidies and bailouts as well.

--then you better get ready for some pretty hairy times without those. capital couldn't survive for long without them.
-----------------------------
For your information, I'm a securities lawyer. Most of my time is spent dealing with SEC regulations of BIG BUSINESSES. For the most part, these regulations do little to affect the industry. But we do it to satisfy the government.

--ah yes, the infamous underfunded undermanned branch of government known as securities regluators.
--------------------------
But, since you're a hysterical assumptionist, I'm not surprised you lost the greater context of my post and started assuming that I'm in favor of some idiotic S&L bailout. Sheesh... I guess the left really has lost all reason.

--ah yes, it's just another one of those ommissions. how wrong of me to notice it.

"Just as Stalin industrialized the Soviet Union, so on a different scale Saddam plotted Iraqís own Great Leap Forward,"

With just this one quote, it's hard to say what Galloway is referring to for certain, but in a sense what he's said is true. If you read up on some of the things Saddam did early on his, um "political career", you'll see that he instituted nationwide schooling and literacy programs as well as some other quite beneficial policies. Unfortunately, the fact that Saddam was also a homocidal maniac led to the destruction of any beneficial initiatives he started in his early years.

calibar:

Mark, any explanation for your Hitch as victim fantasy?

Hitchens isn't a victim; the Left has diminished itself by disowning him.

Which, of course, was the point of my original post, not some fantasy about the oppression of Hitchens, nor the Dixie Chicks for that matter.

You make my point for me better than anything I've written. Your tangential comments and hectoring manner (at least in my opinion) generate more loathing for reactionary posturing than any logical argument I could make.

Thank you for the service.

J.Hari writes in his article (about George Galloway):

"Reading this tiny book (more a pamphlet really) in one short sitting made me feel as though I was trapped in a lift with a crack-smoking Stalin."

Heh. After reading his posts, we should congratulate Calibar on his careful emulation.

Hitchens isn't a victim; the Left has diminished itself by disowning him

--like i've written above, you rewrite history entirely by the false claim that he was 'disowned' by anyone. he disowned the left of his own initiative, it was not in response to any 'disowning'. that is so plain, even hitchens isn't paranoid enough to think that he was 'disowned'.
----------------------------
Which, of course, was the point of my original post, not some fantasy about the oppression of Hitchens, nor the Dixie Chicks for that matter.

--you're the one who brought up the fantasy about the dixie chicks losing fans because they criticised Bush's military adventure in Iraq.
----------------------------

Heh. After reading his posts, we should congratulate Calibar on his careful emulation.

--yeah, but what kind of crack smoking leads to the bizarre claim that Galloway was on Saddam's payroll?
then again, at the rate things are going, wanna bet the US will soon find documents 'proving' that Chalabi was supported by Saddam?

When did MJT's comments sections become Asshats vs. Fanboys for the World Championship Insubstantial Ranting Prize?

Calibar, please do us all a favor: Tell us what you stand for, and why; then, make substantial, principled arguments from that.

The rest of you: Either respond to Calibar with substantial arguments, free of name-calling and other ridicule, or else just leave him alone.

I'm sure everybody here can trivially justify their actions, but that would be truly tiresome. You're all taking the easy way out. It makes for a very unsatisfying comments section, on one of the few blogs where I bother to read the comments section for its high quality of discussion. Now that that's slipping, it kinda makes the whole blog unappealing.

Michael posts thoughtfully on interesting topics. You repay him with the sort of empty ranting that happens on Portal of Evil and Little Green Footballs. Enough, already! Show some respect!

Assuming I'm one of the Asshats you accuse of namecalling, I'll just say that the first time I see a substantial argument come from calibar I'll respond in kind.

The problem is that we asshats can spend the time and effort to articulate what we hope is a fresh viewpoint on the topic being discussed, only to have the discussion hijacked by the aforementioned Insubstantial Ranting.

Especially when the original topic of discussion was George Calloway, and his reactionary embrace of Saddam, reactionary ranting deserves the smack-down that it gets.

You're right; I would rather read intelligent discussions of the topics of the day. My contribution is up there; take a look. If Michael asks me to cool my jets in responding to calibar, I will; it's his site. But in the meantime, since calibar's rhetoric is actually in keeping with the style and substance of Mr. Galloway's efforts, I'm not going to apologize for ripping "small-bore" "rimfire" calibar22 a new one.

Thank you, Peter.

Marc,

No apology necessary. I'm in the position of making an impassioned plea, not issuing an imperious command. What you do in response is primarily your own affair. I'll just stop reading if the thing gets too annoying :)

And actually, I had you in the "fanboy" category. No worries, though.

Hey! I always try to make my rants substantial! Or at least amusing!

Learned just last year how to turn the Caps Lock "off"....

Calibar, please do us all a favor: Tell us what you stand for, and why; then, make substantial, principled arguments from that.

--I have done that, but when I do it's largely ignored. name calling and complaining that I'm 'off topic' [conveniently defined as whatever the compainer sees as 'on topic'].

Especially when the original topic of discussion was George Calloway, and his reactionary embrace of Saddam, reactionary ranting deserves the smack-down that it gets.

--ya see, this is really wierd. i actually posted a good piece from a conservative newspaper that refuted this myth about Galloway accepting bribes from Saddam, yet the folks act like I never posted it and therefore the myth is worth repeating ad nauseum. really strange.

Michael posts thoughtfully on interesting topics. You repay him with the sort of empty ranting that happens on Portal of Evil and Little Green Footballs.

--actually I don't engage in that kind of anti-muslim hate business that so dominates green footballs et al. in fact, i don't even swear in my posts.

Portal of Evil...why yes, I thought something seemed familiar about his snipes.

Good call, Peter.

Calibar,

I tried to send you an email, asking what you believe in, and why, but the message bounced back due to a bad address, apparently.

I'm sincerely interested in knowing what principles form the foundation for your arguments. I'll happily reply in kind, and I look forward to hearing more from you.

Feel free to email me at the address provided here.

Thanks!

Calibar, since your email doesn't work:

--ya see, this is really wierd. i actually posted a good piece from a conservative newspaper that refuted this myth about Galloway accepting bribes from Saddam, yet the folks act like I never posted it and therefore the myth is worth repeating ad nauseum. really strange.

The origninal story wasn't about Galloway's possible financial ties to Saddam, it was about the fawning rhetoric in his book. Whether he was a slut or a prostitute never came into it.

See ya.

The origninal story wasn't about Galloway's possible financial ties to Saddam, it was about the fawning rhetoric in his book. Whether he was a slut or a prostitute never came into it.

--I rest my case, when you don't have an argument, make up your own standards for what qualifies as 'relevant' and then declare the person you have an argument with as 'not being relevant'.
Hate to break it to you Mark, in Michael's original post is the [false] claim that Galloway was bribed by Saddam. I guess it's not right for me to respond to that though, thanks for making me understand that. lol.

Calibar:

Hate to break it to you Mark, in Michael's original post is the [false] claim that Galloway was bribed by Saddam.

Care to point out where in the original post Michael made the claim?

I suppose you meant in the Johann Hari post:

It is not the allegations that he was being paid by Saddam Hussain - soon to be settled in the libel courts - that will destroy George Galloway.

That's of course the first sentence, which makes clear that, in Hari's opinion, the bribery claims are irrelevant to the case against Galloway; sucking up to Saddam one way or the other.

Reading is fundamental.

Calibar,

George Galloway was on Saddam Hussein's payroll.

Michael Totten

Ah, you meant in one of his comments, not his origninal post. Sorry for reading you literally.

I stand corrected.

no, actually that was my mistake, i should have said comment not post.

We don't know whether Galloway is innocent of being on Saddam's payrol until these reports are refuted:

UN Oil-for-Food payroll

Bribery (the Telegraph's evidence being independent of the CSM's.

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