Michael, fighting terrorism requires new rules. Did anybody ever ask how many US soldiers lives have been saved because we used these methods of interogation ? Or do you prefer a castrated military intelligence which doesn't have the tools to be efficient, gets our soldiers no info to protect them but has the virtues of a saint ? Think what would Al Qaeada and Nick Berg killers prefer and think what are our choices ?
Our society has lost the ruthlessness to protect itself against its barbaric enemies. It is disheartening to see the liberals doing their most to renedr us impotent and the barbariand gloating at our impotence and planning their next actions, which will kill even more of us, unshielded, soft and morally superior defenseless people.

Part of me says to pay no attention to annonymous sources, part of me says "plausible deniability" is a very useful tool, part of me disbelieves consipiracies because they are so difficult to hold together, and part of me thinks that our enemy is our enemy and we should do whatever we must to defeat him or else we shall end up much like Nick Berg.

Well, 100% of me says I have no idea whether or not any of this is true, but I am sure of one thing: Hersch is trying to regain some of his I-broke-the-My-Lai-story shine.

Given Hersh's bias, I'd take it with a grain of salt that rivals the Hope Diamond. Hersh has as much credibility on this Administration as Pat Robertson has on homosexuals.

Michael, I haven't read the article yet. Sleep deprivation and other high-pressure questioning methods have been used (openly) for a very long time now. Did "unconventional" apply to these methods? From the quotes I've seen it seems like they do, and don't permit the atrocities we saw.

Also, how did the investigation go? My understanding prior to all this was that the investigation was publicly announced-- but it was the pictures released via the press that gave the scandal its punch. This article seems to imply that the investigation was stalling without public outrage.

It's likely that this report is salted with both fact and fabrication. It certainly rings true that the upper echelons were pushing for more intelligence... but the atrocities seem so counterproductive as to defy reason.

Certainly, we've indirectly promoted real torture by turning over terrorists to their home countries for trial, countries that themselves practice torture. We've all been aware of this (I think you even mentioned this in a post or two). But there's a big difference between that and doing it yourself. I agree, if the Secretary did order the humiliations, he'll have to go.

And what is supposed to happen if Seymour Hersh's story is a big bunkum? Or most likely a bunch of half truths put together to smear Rumsfeld?

well marek, then Seymour Hirsh needs to be fired.

Marek: And what is supposed to happen if Seymour Hersh's story is a big bunkum?

It depends on whether he knowingly published something that isn't true. If he did that and is caught, the New Yorker will fire him. David Remnick wouldn't put up with that crap. He isn't Howell Raines.

Is part of that training to have wild orgies in the cellblock, take pictures of it, and get knocked up by one of the 4 men you are screwing at once?

Sorry to me the reservists involved in the abuse look like world-class screwups who were improperly supervised, not soldiers following orders.

"If he did that and is caught, the New Yorker will fire him."

Actually, no.

Roger:Actually, no.

You really don't think so?

Let me clarify what I meant. If Hersh made his story up I think the New Yorker would fire him. Maybe I'm naive about this, but I've been reading David Remnick's work for many years (he wrote the best history book I've ever read, "Lenin's Tomb") and I just can't see him publishing lies and being okay with that.

I doubt Hersh is lying. I have no idea if his sources are lying since I don't even know who they are.

If Hersh's sources are fabricating, and Hersh can plausibly claim to not know that, he's still reasonably clean in terms of reputation. (Between him and his conscience there might be a different story.) But why would someone with his reputation take the risk of torching his own legacy by fabricating a source and putting words in his mouth? That's grist for the conspiracy-theory mill as far as I'm concerned.

None of which mean this recent story amounts to much more than a fishing expedition. Hersh claimed to have more material than he'd released for the Abu Ghraib story, but said he wanted to prove his case on that count, before moving on. He may now have a source who will never be identified in his lifetime, and the whole thing may never go farther than what we've just seen. Who knows what cards Hersh is really holding?

Hersh likes a good story, as do we all (unless it's about ourselves) and conspiracies make for good stories. However, his record AFAIK has been pretty reasonable in this respect. Remember Flight KAL 007? Whoo. The theories around that one. Hersh actually sat down with a flight path planning console and worked out the chances that it was all just navigator error. And he discovered that the chances of the sort of error that put KAL 007 off course were actually very high. (Partly due to a crummy user interface for those gizmos.) And that's how he reported it in the end.

The only question that interests me about Don Rumsfeld's firing is how it'll affect the war.

If firing Don Rumsfeld impedes victory -- I don't care if he ordered Iraqi prisoners be flayed alive. Keep him.

If firing Don Rumsfeld hastens victory -- I don't care if he gives lollipops to orphans. Fire his ass.

We're in a fight for our existence. This American doesn't give two shits about airing dirty laundry if airing it aids the enemy. And all indications are that it is aiding the enemy.

In short: tell me WHY sacking Rumsfeld will HASTEN VICTORY even if what Hersh wrote is true.

Nick Berg's fate awaits us all if we continue to let the Seymour Hersh's of the world frame our national debate.

The article simply states that, clearly on a case by case basis, our intelligence people would be given leeway to produce results.

This is just more politically motivated crapola from the media. The system worked. This is about a small group of night-shift sickos with a thing for s@m homoerotic photography. A hanful of officers are guilty of not supervising. That's it.

Wars are unpleasant. America is guilty of not providing a pleasant prison experience to these hard-core sunnis.

Kudos to Michael for presenting the pro and con on whether Hersh's charges are true.

I haven't read the article, but I wonder whether the charges and the denials might both be true. That is, maybe there is an Operation Copper Green, but maybe the atrocities we've seen in the photos were a separate issue. If I selected fewer than 200 people to be involved in Copper Green, I sure wouldn't include Corporal Charles A Granerand or Private First Class Lyndie England!

Since these two will have public trials, they will have an opportunity to prove that they were following approved policy. I think we'll learn the truth on Hersh's allegations one way or another fairly soon. Something with 200 people involved can't be covered up.

What Roger said. Hersh could have made the thing up whole cloth and he wouldn't get fired.

More crap from a crappy magazine.

David
"Something with 200 people involved can't be covered up."

Maybe thats what happened, the guards at Abu Ghirab heard about what was going on at a higher level and decided that if some units were using these methods then it was okay for them to do the same. Thats assuming that "unconventional methods" means torture of the kind seen in the pictures. If thats true then the abuses wouldn't have been authorised by Rumsfeld, but the part about the Copper Green operation would be true. Note that the above is pure speculation, but its a possibility.

I'm thinking that it was more likely stupidity on behalf of the guards than orders from Rumsfeld that led to this situation. Like David said upthread, "If I selected fewer than 200 people to be involved in Copper Green, I sure wouldn't include Corporal Charles A Granerand or Private First Class Lyndie England!"

Sarin nerve agent loaded in an artillery round is found in Iraq, press conference is held yet, the stupid American journalist asks questions regarding the prison scandal.

Can the bias be any more obvious!

When our soldiers die from these 'non-existant' weapons then the American press will start asking questions.

How have so many of our American journalists become such blood-thirsty vultures?

David, what you're saying rings true for me. Still...

Look, this isn't like the web rumors that say that Nick Berg was a jewish spy, or that it was Rumsfeld ordered Berg's execution. As MT points out, the New Yorker is leftist, but factually pretty on the ball. I was really impressed by Lenin's Tomb as well.

We on the pro-war side need to be prepared for these charges to be completely validated. And we have to take them seriously. These are court-martial offenses whether you're a private or a general.

On the anti-war side, they need to be prepared for these charges to be wrong. That Rumsfeld ordered high-pressure interrogation is nothing that hasn't been talked about openly before. That (in the face of the need for rapid intelligence) he streamlined the process wasn't widely known, but is certainly defensible. Be ready for people to start equating these two things to the possibly unrelated atrocity charges.

I hate to say it, but the pro-war liberals are in the easiest position to be objective. They don't feel married to the administration but recognize the realities of war and our national security. Oh well, I'll just have to do my best. :)

Hersh has a accuracy quotient problem at the very least. Check out realclearpolitics.com for a recall of his war reporting 9 days before Baghdad fell.

Of course, he may not be an idiot, he may be JOTOS (Just On The Other Side).

The thing with swatting Rummy, or Condi, or W, or even Clinton and Kerry is that you can. They are or were or want to be paid to be accountable (if not responsible).

You can't swat OBL (IMHO, he's in the Telemarketer's Circle of Hell). You can't swat Saddam even though we have him (he's a very important prisoner, you likely can't even force him to listen to Yoko Ono, let alone any of the rotten thigns our people did to his wanabe minions). You can't swat Kofi for the Oil for Torture scam (the UN is sacrosanct no matter how many people they kill). You can't swat Arafat (he has a Nobel Prize for Killing Jews - it doesn't apply here for Iraq, but people certainly love swatting Sharon depsite his current disengagement intent for Gaza - because they can). You can't swat Berg's murders (likely too slipery to catch) or any of the others that are out of reach metaphysically or legally.

So you swat who you can. Out of real or faux justice, out of frustration, or out of convinience. Even when doing something to make you feel good doesn't do any good at all. And as far as swatting R,C or W, I want to make sure they need any swatting before I decide to make myself feel better. Too much is at stake.

"But if Hersh’s story turns out to be true (and I have little doubt Congress will try to get to the bottom of this) both Rumsfeld and Myers need to be fired."

Michael, don't do that to me! I just spewed tea all over my monitor laughing. Congress will try to get to the bottom of this! Congress will, in fact, hold hearings allowing its members to posture for partisan advantage, in my cases use up alloted time for questions by making speeches rather than asking any questions, and generally behave like all the people whom you hated in high school.

The idea that Congress will make a bona fide effort to get to the bottom of this is ludicrous.

Roger was kind enough to link to my take on the situation, but I won't let modesty get in the way of promoting it here, too. Hersh has established, vaguely, Method for Rumsfeld to have committed a crime. Hersh has hinted at Opportunity, but not convincingly established that part of the triangle. Hersh has utterly failed to establish Motive for Donald Rumsfeld to commit crimes against humanity.

If we acknowledge that a human being exists inside the skin of Donald Rumsfeld, not just a charicature that would make Donald Duck look more plausible, then we have to analyze the character of that human being. At no time was the situation in Iraq so dire as to make Donald Rumsfeld ask for a return to Cold War defense funding. Why then should we believe that Donald Rumsfeld would authorize a return to Cold War interrogation when doing so would more thoroughly undermine his stated position than an increase in funding? What proof do we have that Rumsfeld would feel torture necessary?

All the accusations I have seen so far more closely relate to Donald Duck then Donald Rumsfeld on the subject of character. Remeber the episode where Donald Duck made Huey, Dewey, and Louis smoke the entire box of cigars? That is a more compelling implication of character than what Hersh has described.

From Hersh's article (also one of MJT's pullquotes):

The abuses at Abu Ghraib were exposed on January 13th, when Joseph Darby, a young military policeman assigned to Abu Ghraib, reported the wrongdoing to the Army’s Criminal Investigations Division. He also turned over a CD full of photographs. Within three days, a report made its way to Donald Rumsfeld, who informed President Bush.

So, given this sentence, what, exactly, did Rumsfeld do wrong? And, again, where's the cover-up? Darby bravely came forward. Three days later the SecDef himself was informed, and he in turn informed the President. After the abuses, which of course were horrible, it seems to be a story of the system working properly, as opposed to a cover-up, denial, or any other sort of malfeasance.

Hersh's article (Yes, I read it, but I haven't had time to read the earlier one yet) seems to me to be an attempt to conflate two separate issues. Lyddie England, and the 7 or so others who were caught, from my understanding, were involved in stuff like the forced masturbation, S&M gear, human pyramid etc. The NYT story from Sunday made it sound as if this was all stuff that they did to a bunch of guys who were accused of gang-raping a 15-year-old boy, a horrible crime obviously, but nothing that had to do with terrorism/insurgency.

Hersh's piece, OTOH, is talking about a progam in which "unconventional" interrogation techniques were to be used against "high value" detainees, terrorists/insurgents, presumably by Military Intelligence types. What does one have to do with the other? Were low-end reservists, like England and her gang of perverts, actually part of this "black-op". The article didn't make it clear to me, though one of the anonymous sources did start railing on about "hillbillies" at some point.

On the journalistic debate, my understanding, drawn only from watching Shattered Glass, is that the only way that Hersh could get in any trouble whatsoever would be if he just made the anonymous sources up, that is, if these people simply didn't exist. Even if every detail of the article is false, all that would mean is that he was taken for a ride by his sources, which is a different matter altogether. If anything is substantitvely contradicted later then some corrections might be issued, but Hersh's job would certianly be secure.

Oh, and what happened to the allegations of rape with chemical light sticks? That was the thing that really got to me and was the only reason I was willing to use the term "torture". Were they false, like the gang rape video?

I've to admit that I've lost my patience when I came to this:

', interrogate “high value” targets in the Bush Administration’s war on terror. '

Well, according to Hersh this is not world's or the coalition's or the USA war, this is Bush Administration's war. That's enough for me. Hersh can take his whole story and stick it.

Marek,

What's wrong with calling it "the Bush Administration's war on terror"? The WoT was proposed and is being carried out by the Bush administration, is it not? Is it also partisan reporting to refer to "FDR's New Deal" or "LBJ's war on poverty"? You seem to be grasping at outrage here.

Smokey:

Yeah, but they called it "World War 2" not "FDR's war on Germany and Japan", that's what marek's getting at I believe. Anyway, both of the examples you cite are "wars" in the metaphorical sense. The "war on terror" is a real war between liberal democracies on one hand versus Islamofascist terrorists and their supporters on the other. It should transcend political parties, presidents etc. (though of course there's going to be serious disagreements about what specific policies should be used to prosecute it). Calling it "The Bush Adminstration's" echoes the rhetoric of the far left (and a portion of the far right) that the whole thing is just some scheme cooked up by the Bush Administration and isn't something legitimate.

Smokey,

What's wrong with calling WW2 Churchil administration's war on axis? You're so nuanced. Perhaps that's the problem. Time to understand it's your war too. Remember, about 3000 American have been killed in a space of few hours? I'll stick with my outrage because I believe it is my war too.

Smokey: The WoT was proposed and is being carried out by the Bush administration, is it not?

No, the Terror War (as I prefer to call it) was declared by Osama bin Laden. (Also by Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.) We're at war no matter what Bush says or does.

I think the issue boils down to this: From what I've read, it seems likely that Rumsfeld is trying to de-solidify the beauracracy. And with that, he gave "more leeway" to the lower-hierarchy to achieve "stated goals" with a modicum of direction as to "strategy" for achieving those goals.

Those are all basically sound management decisions, and it can be argued that it is necessary for the "lower hierarchy" to have flexibility, given the challenges that are now faced.

Coupled with that,however, is the fact that Rumsfeld represents the "accountability" level. To wit, if he doesn't have the command/management team in place to ensure that abuses won't occur lower down in the chain of command, he has failed in implementing his initiative, even if it has worthwhile goals.

I think we have to wait a bit to see if Rumsfeld should resign. I would be against his resignation simply in the role of "scapegoat." If, however, there was a serious lapse of management to ensure that "greater flexibility" did not devolve into SYSTEMIC abuse (as opposed to a few out of control abusers, and the check and balance failure did not go very far up the chain of command) -- then, frankly, Rumsfeld, or someone not very far under him in the chain of command needs to accept responsibility for a failed initiative. Even so, it may prove that history is kinder to his command (i.e., an honest and detached assessment of the challenges he faced) than is required currently for political accountability. But that, historically, always has been so. Goes with the job terrain.

Of course he shouldn't resign. Somebody needs to be in charge of torturing our opponants. Afterall, everything needs organization and every organization needs a head.

Of course he shouldn't resign. Somebody needs to be in charge of torturing our opponants. Afterall, everything needs organization and every organization needs a head.

The "Terror War" was declared by America when they funded the Afghani Resistance fighters and trained them in Afghanistan to fight the Russian invasion. Where do you think that Al-Qaeda learned how to fly planes into buildings? This is a form of asymetrical warfare, a tactic that was developed by the CIA.

The only way to fight the terrorists is to remove their reason for existing. First of all, America should tell Israel to pull out of the West Bank settlements. Also, let the Palestinians have their country and no more helicopter attacks.

Secondly, America should hand over control of Iraq to the United Nations, the only world body that can legitimately maintain order without severe casualties.

Lastly, America should take a long, hard look at it's foreign policies. Why should the U.S. spend hundreds of billions of dollars on Defence when your security has gone down as a result? A hundred years ago, you spent less on war and yet you were safer. This makes sense to me, or to anyone who lives in a non-agressive state (ie. Canada, Sweden, etc.)

How many terror attacks are hitting places like Canada or Sweden? None, and that's because we don't have troops garrisoned in 81 nations, carrier fleets in every ocean, or 21,000 nuclear ICBM's pointed at all the cities in the world. America does. That's why they're being targeted by madmen and terrorists. (Plus, America has been involved in many coup attempts, such as the 1973 coup in Chile, and this instills anger around the world, thereby fueling hatred towards the "Evil Empire")

Jeremy,

Lovely, got that head stuck firmly in the sand.

So tell me what the pacified approach of Canada would have gained us back when Saddam went on his little country expansion quest? Remember the invasion of Kuwait? Remember the tanks lined up for a quick side-trip to Saudi Arabia?

Yup, if only we'd just not bothered building up the ol' US of A's military might, this all would have simply blown over...

Rob,

Under international law, Saddam was permitted to invade Kuwait. They had been slant-drilling (talk to a Texan & he'll explain that this is a way to steal oil from somebody across a border) and that is a valid infraction as a precursor for war.

If Mexico or Canada were stealing oil from the USA, how would you stop them? Would you send an angry letter, or maybe scratch them off your X-mas card list? Probably not. I can imagine the smart bombs already. Point is, if Kuwait stole oil from Iraq, Iraq had a right as a sovereign nation to invade. (USA invades countries all the time with less of a pretext. Bush's policy of preemptive warfare is like shooting somebody who's carrying a baseball bat. After all, they could have hit you in the head and killed your whole family with that bat! They're dangerous!)

And Saudi Arabia is no utopic paradise, either. Their Al-Saud ruling family is crooked and inept, a serious violator of human rights (just like Saddam was). How come we're not invading them to force democracy down their throats? Because their gov't has always been very kind to America while chopping the hands off of it's citizens.

Where I come from, we call that a double-standard.

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Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone else had thought that Copper Green was being run by the ISA (Intelligence Support Activity). They are both comprised of the same members, both are engaged in black ops and both work directly under Stephen Cambone, Under Secretary for Defense.

According to the London guardian, they were also responsible for tracking down Saddam's sons, Uday and Qusay. Part of the article follows:

The most secretive military unit in the US armed forces is code-named Grey Fox. Over the past two months its role has been boiled down to a single mission: the hunt for Saddam Hussein and his sons Uday and Qusay.

And if Saddam is now dead, killed last week, it is certain Grey Fox was involved: Saddam would be its biggest catch since the downfall of Colombian drug lord Pablo Escobar.

Officially members of a unit named 'Intelligence Support Activity', Grey Fox was established by the Pentagon in 1981 to work as manhunters, assassins and deep penetration agents.

Since then, the unit that has been criticised by senior US officials for its 'lawlessness'

Personal Note - It could be this very lawlessness that made it prime selection material for Rumsfeld for Copper Green.

...
and 'lack of control' has hunted Serbian war criminals in the Balkans, fought in Somalia, and in counter-terror operations across the globe: it is a key part of what the Pentagon calls its 'black world' of undercover operations.

But it was in the war in Afghanistan that the unit was expanded and given its free hand, part of US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's efforts to build a massively expanded covert military capability for the US war on terrorism.

Now the soldier-spies of Grey Fox, part of Task Force 20, who come under the political control of the Pentagon's new Under Secretary of State for Intelligence, Stephen Cambone, have one mission: to kill or capture Saddam.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,982581,00.html

When you cross check this info against Hersch's article you see that:

One Pentagon official who was deeply involved in the program was Stephen Cambone, who was named Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in March, 2003. The office was new; it was created as part of Rumsfeld’s reorganization of the Pentagon

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

In fact the membership of both units, if they are actually 2 separate ones are strikingly similar:

The people assigned to the program worked by the book, the former intelligence official told me. They created code words, and recruited, after careful screening, highly trained commandos and operatives from America’s élite forces—Navy seals, the Army’s Delta Force, and the C.I.A.’s paramilitary experts

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

There is quite a lot of activity with recent Black Ops, In fact, after 9/11 they were expanded.

Hope this was of interest to you.

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