Sounds like BP feels a sense of ownership over his or her party and position that isn't at all justified. What a dip. Who's pouting? Who's feeling entitled to a warm welcome? Better yet, who gives a flying fuck what BP things, anyway?

Criminy ("BP things"), preview is my friend, preview is my friend....

Sticks and stones - buck up, for pete's sake!

Doesn't Andrew Sullivan get the same kind of crap everytime he strays from the wing nut line? LOL

You don't even know "BP's" real name and you still give a shit what he thinks? rolling my eyes -- LOL

Can we have a new subject, please? this is too silly....

Isn't it nice to know that at the brink of becoming politically relevant, Leftists are doing everything in their power to stay meaningless?

Unless you're one of the people pushing diversity out of the herd, of course.

How dare you have thoughts now sanctioned by our intellectual elite!

Now be a good pundit and get yer ass back into the machine...

"flying fuck"? Is that like joining the mile high club? Just wonderin' . . .

As I have commented in the past, liberals and the left are not really ready to win yet, despite the "we're unified like never before" and "ABB" claims.

This is not unusual. After losing a close presidential election, the defeated party tends to nominate somebody from their wing (Goldwater 1964, McGovern 1972, Reagan 1980). To the people supporting this candidate, ideological purity is crucial.

BP's comments illustrate this perfectly. Instead of welcoming you back (assuming for the moment you have gone back) he treats you with scorn and suspicion.

BTW, there is another definition of fold:

To withdraw (one's hand) in defeat, as by laying cards face down on a table.

I hope I am not sensing that other definition in several recent posts on your blog.

"flying fuck at a rolling donut" is the complete phrase.

uhm, this guy is a 'liberal'????

I took a flying fuck and I never looked back. Good riddance it was.

Michael,
I believe the technical term for people like BP, on both sides of the partisan line, is fuckwit. Ignore him and his ilk, they are best left to rot in their own insignifigance.

Your vote is up for grabs right now, please don't let someone like that be the deciding factor in your choice come November.

>>>"Can we have a new subject, please? this is too silly...."

I don't think this is silly at all. It's irrelevant that we don't know who BP is, and that he's a schmuck. His attitute is pervasive on the Left side of the isle. And his choice of words, "flock", was a glimpse into their psyche.

David, you say that as people in this very thread contend that if you are opposed to this occupation of iraq and want quick withdrawl from iraq you are a liberal! and still the obsession with the 'left' side of the aisle. bizarre.

One man, one vote -- the rest is bullshit.

There are so many more intersting things going on than a "He Said/He Said" gossipy thread overblown to be emblematic of much -- LOL -- oh well, I'm obviously in the minority.

Have a nice day!

Is Eunice Stone in Portland?

Any movement (or sub-movement) that has heretics has abandoned reason as a tool.

Enjoy the donut.

Welcome to Packwood's world, Michael.

Apostasy is never forgiven.

Calibar,

Not at all bizarre.

You, personally, may not be a Leftist, or even a Liberal, simply because YOU opposed the war.

But simply because YOU opposed it, does not negate in any way that the Left did, and that most Liberals did.

So it's a generalization that keeps on giving, even if you find it "bizarre."

It's not his fault he has jerks in his comments.

Well, according to Yglesias and his buddies it manifestly is Charles Johnson's fault that he has jerks in his comments, so I don't think he really deserves this dispensation.

I thought the current arguments were between the forward-thinking moderates vs. the backwards-looking stasists. I guess BP kind of proved that.

This current election is just bringing back old left/right arguments. Is anyone happy with the choice between Bush and Kerry?

I’ve had discussions with left-leaning conspiracy theorists who, like me (now leaning towards the right) would be happy to vote for McCain or Giuliani. If you float the possibility of different candidates, often, people will become a lot more reasonable.

It seems that a lot of anger concerns the pitiful choices we’re offered.

I'm a long-time reader, first time commenter. Could you guys lay off the f-word and the rest of the profanity which is getting more and more prevalent here? This used to be a place you could read liberal, conservative, centrist views, etc and not have to wade through linguistic muck. It is still true out here in the real world that lots of people don't talk this way and some of us aren't crazy about coming to an intelligent, well-written, thoughful site only to be assaulted by the kind of profanity that I most associate with high school & college boys trying to impress each other. You guys are smarter than that. Maybe the fact that I'm a woman makes a difference, I don't know. But when did MT make this a boys only site?

You hit the nail on the head. Leftism is a religion, with its heretics and witch hunts and excommunications.

Be careful, or they might not let you come back into the group. Then you might have to think for yourself. How terrifying.

hey michael, you don't need anyone's permission to vote nor to vote for whomever you think best suited to be president. nor do you need permission to ascribe to the tenets of one party or another.

in my experience visiting and reading here, you are a rational guy who gets agitated and motivated by the right things, regardless of how you actually come down on the issue.

cripes, who isn't shaken by the abu ghraib business, the fallujah stuff, the torture and death of mr. berg? what rational human being, given what we have seen and heard over the last few months, doesn't wonder if we are doing the right things in the right ways? it's not called "going wobbly" it's called thinking.

keeping writing, keep talking, and keep listening; you're a smart guy, everything else will take care of itself.

Priscilla: But when did MT make this a boys only site?

Sorry. I won't make a habit of it.

Sorry Priscilla. Even good boys fuck up once in a while.

Mr. Totten:

"I am neither religious "

This right here may be why your vote is up for grabs. Belief in traditional religion tends to correlate with voting with the Republicans. But modern leftism is becoming more and more like a religion all the time. And a fairly fanatic one at that.

Gerry

Here's the whole damn video, for the time being, in case anyone wants to see it.
http://www.davva.com/beheaded.wmv

I was and am a liberal hawk too, though I never would have voted for Bush so there's no disappointment there. I won't be part of any fold that excludes people like that... but BP is in a minority. But then, there was the guy who wrote in my comments section that I wasn't a liberal because I supported "Dubya's war".

Lets face it. One of the biggest problems in this nations discourse is the inability of, seemingly, the majority of us to carry on rational discourse in a respectful, interested manner.

One of the classic manifestations is the "Strawman" syndrome. IF you go to all the really loony sites, that is their specialty. Take one over-the-top comment by some loony on the other side, and pretend that that characterizes everyone to your left, or right. "Look at what this nitwit said - typical of all leftists/rightwingers". But it aint just the loony sites where that happens, you can find several fine examples just by scrolling up this sheet of comments.

Thats why I dont particularly like this thread of Michaels. It just plays right into that. Who cares what one anonymous poster writes - unless of course it is something intellegent and interesting? For all we know it could be a rightie pretending to be a leftie. THere are all manner of silly games out there.

I have been rather less than impressed with this blog since you had your personal revelation after the prison scandal in Iraq.
Of ALL the reasons to get a case of cold feet,this has to be the worst one.What do you believe that WAR is? The reason we all try to avoid the accursed thing is that it is ALWAYS brutal and disgusting.ALWAYS.
Not to make light of the revolting behaviour of a collection of MORONS who should never have been in charge of prisoners,BUT I can't really believe that you find yourself " un-decided" at this critical time.Surely you have had enough information delivered and sufficient time to process it reasonably in order to develope a resolute position.
That is what is wrong with the current brand of "Liberalism". It is always at best merely "semi-tough" and always seems on the verge of falling into a quagmire of existential despair.If as many now believe this battle is a battle for the future of our idea of civilization,the time for "perfect answers" and infinite soul searching is gone.
"Un-decided" is not a viable option in my jaundiced opinion,but it's your blog.

why couldn't the US negotiate with the captors?
i mean it's ok for israel to negotiate with terrorist groups, why isn't it PC in the US?

Doug,

The reason I'm undecided is because I don't know what is going to happen next.

I have no cold feet about fighting terrorists and their sponsors.

Tano,

I hear ya about strawmen. Thing is, this particular problem has been an ongoing one for me for a long time now. And I'm not the only one who has had to put up with it. Read the comments at Marc Cooper's blog. He writes for The Nation and is repeatedly "outed" as a neo-con, a rightist, and even a Pinochetista, despite the fact that Augusto Pinochet murdered members of his own family.

I have no cold feet about fighting terrorists and their sponsors.

--i didn't know you were overseas in the fight. blogging from najaf?

and even a Pinochetista, despite the fact that Augusto Pinochet murdered members of his own family.

--methinks you are making stuff up, i don't recall anyone calling him a pinochetista. i do recall his being reminded that pinochet's rhetoric is not that different from much of the warhawk lobby in the US and its calls for 'flattening of fallujah?'

But simply because YOU opposed it, does not negate in any way that the Left did, and that most Liberals did.

--the left by and large, to its credit, did oppose the war (and even upset some drivers stuck in traffic--cry boo hoo!!). but the left was hardly the only group opposed of course, especially these days. what, now some 40 odd percent of americans say we should leave ASAP? that's a whole lotta leftists out there !

Calibar: methinks you are making stuff up

I don't remember which thread it was in. If you didn't just accuse me of being a liar I would find it for you.

I also had dinner with him a few days ago. (Go ahead. Accuse of me "making stuff up" again.) We talked at length about this. He's been putting up with this crap for years. He worked for the Allende government and escaped after the coup by the skin of his teeth. He is often accused of being a Chilean CIA plant.

You may think this stuff is trivial, but you wouldn't if it happened to you on a regular basis.

Maybe someone could help me out here, but is there anywhere that exists a clear-eyed analysis, of what it would actually take, to really and truly "change" the society of Iraq, into at least a so-so democracy? Say, an El Salavador democracy, or something similar?

A couple of comparisons - and I've done this before, but didn't get any relevant feedback:

1. Clearly, you need a sense of overwhelming power - militarily, economically, politically.

Let's look at "successful" changes -

1. Japan and Germany - these were two LARGE countries, with a firm sense of self, and a lot of economic, military, and political power of their own.

It took massive, overwhelming, absolute "you must destroy the village in order to save it" force, to truly kill even any notion of rebellion. The firebombing of Dresden, the dropping of the atomic bomb. The installation, at first, of a huge and overwhelming level of troops. Economically, the total isolation of any enemy who might be opposed.

2. Something much smaller, such as Panama, and Noriega.

a. Much, much less, overwhelming force, from a military perspective. Also, from a economic perspective, all the countries AROUND Panama, rely economically on the U.S. Politically as well, the neighboring countries had no cross country sympathies, or ties to Noriega. So not much "blowback".

3. Vietnam. A land of a huge population. So, the force needed was huge, and overwhelming. Which, the US pretty much provided. Millions of tons of bombs dropped on the "enemy" in this case. But politically, this was much harder, because of actual political foes - such as the Soviet Union, who could provide weapons to insurgents, as could sympathetic countries. Economically, again, there WERE options for those opposed to the U.S. plan.

This brings us to Iraq. What are the requirements for military, political, and economic dominance?

1. The military program initiated did very well in terms of the invasion requirements. But it looks like has done very poorly in terms of man-on-the-ground suppression of violence post-occupation. 300,000 to 500,000 troops is probably what is needed to keep order. And yes, the US citizenry needs to be able to ACCEPT the great possibility that this would mean there would be greater us troops killed.

The political program - the options of political dominance, isn't really there for the US. At least, there simply is not the type of isolation that Germany had at the end of World War 2 - or the dependence of Panama (and neighboring countries) on the United States. Ever our erstwhile "allies", while supporting the US, can, and probably do, provide under-the-table funding to those who are opposing the US program in Iraq.

Also, for a place like Fallulah - is the military option of overwhelming force, really a political option? Can you firebomb Fallulah? Or, is the political reality such that this would backfire, and the US doesn't have the political dominance to handle the blowback? Opposing the US political dominance is a 'pan-arab' sensibility and sensitivity to "colonization" - that would make the self-sustaining geographic neighbors of Iraq, even more likely to resist under the table, if the US finally did the "efficient" thing, and destroyed those who opposed, and all those within radius of who opposed. The cost is simply too high politically, both abroad and in the states.

Economically - because of the mutual dependency in the region, both the arab regimes on the U.S., and the U.S. on the arab (read oil) regimes, we again do NOT have the economic dominance necessary to enforce the US will.

To wrap it up, it seems like the only way to really do regime change, is to ensure - really ahead of time - that there is a near absolute assurance of enduring military, political, and economic dominance AFTER the actual fact of regime change.

The US has most assuredly has not had this - and had no way to have this type of dominance, on all three levels, when going into Iraq. (The German-Japan dominance clearly wasn't there before the fact, but was definitely there AFTER the fact).

These are my thoughts, not deeply attached to them. Any comments on this would be appreciated, or pointers to books that have thought deeply about this.

calibar,

As I stated yesterday in another thread, the American people only support war when they are manipulated into it in one way or another. The longer it goes on, the more horrifying stories and images get out, the more people will oppose it. That's why , in an allegedly free country, we're not allowed to see what those in charge don't want us to see, such as flag-draped caskets. Too much reality seeping out to the masses is not good for the war machine.

The short version of the above would be the following:

1. You don't do regime change, unless you are pretty assured that the options for those who opposed regime change after the fact, when you are the occupying power, have little to no military, economic, or political recourse.

It seems as if this is true for every regime change that has been successful.

The way to get the political and economic elements of "little recourse", in this interconnected age, is to have the types of international accord and buy-in that the U.S. had in the 1st Gulf War, or in the Afghanistan conflict. And even then there are no guarantees.

To go it alone - or with only those who are give fairly token support (let's be honest) only invites disaster.

also had dinner with him a few days ago. (Go ahead. Accuse of me "making stuff up" again.)

--perhaps you might react to what i actually said, i never said cooper was making up his experiences in chile, i've read plenty of his reports from chile since the early 1980's. i did say you're making up the part about people calling him a pinochetista.
-------------------------
I also had dinner with him a few days ago. (Go ahead. Accuse of me "making stuff up" again.)

--again, a non sequitor, of course i wouldn't say you made that up.
------------------------
He is often accused of being a Chilean CIA plant.

--i've never read that from any serious writers. he's probably responding to persons of minimal influence in the left at best. marc's written some good stuff on chile, he's not that big a player in terms of what has happened in chile, anyone accusing him of being a CIA plant misses that mundane reality.
------------------------------

Say, an El Salavador democracy, or something similar?

--a democracy that the US intervenes in at every turn, wow, what an option.

Calibar, yes, I know, El Salvador isn't an ideal. I'm more looking at efficacy, at the moment, rather than the morality. I'm well aware of some of stupid interventions in Central American affairs. But my point in this post, is that they WORK to a large degree, because of the the US's dominance. Not that these interventions are necessarily right.

The point is, that even by the El Salador standard, this particular invasion/intervention, by its own lights, in terms of working, was done badly.

Too many passive nouns - the everpresent "they".

El Salavador interventions work, because there are very few options for those that wish to oppose.

Iraq regime change can't work, and this should have been seen, because there are definitely other options and support, both internally and from neighboring countries, for those that oppose.

But my point in this post, is that they WORK to a large degree, because of the the US's dominance. Not that these interventions are necessarily right.

--au contraire, they DON'T work because of the US' dominance, witness the utterly distorted election in ES only recently, filled with US $ for the Arena Party and transparent threats of aid decreases if the wrong guy was elected.

Hang in there Michael. The moderate path is the way. Fuck party lines.
Keep up the good work
Unithraxer

Michael,

I absolutely understand why you're perturbed about the those leftist folks saying they wouldn't want you on their side because of your support for the war. I think it's a narrow-minded and self-defeating attitude. I would like to know, though, if you're bothered as much by the vitriolic response you've gotten from some right-wing beasts for daring to show outrage over the vicious treatment of Iraqi prisoners. After all, on the issue of the war, these are your fellow travelers.

Flipster: I would like to know, though, if you're bothered as much by the vitriolic response you've gotten from some right-wing beasts for daring to show outrage over the vicious treatment of Iraqi prisoners.

I don't see that happening. Some of them are worried that I'm going wobbly, but they aren't mad because I'm outraged about torture. They also aren't saying I have no right to be a hawk or trying to banish me into the pacifist camp against my will.

I'm sure if I decided to register as a Republican I would get called a RINO by some people. (Republican in Name Only.) Whatever. I don't expect to have that experience any time soon, but I would definitely hit back if it happened.

Michael,

Changing from a liberal to a conservative does require a "personality change." It just means you have a different idea about what the government should or should not do.

Liberals seem to think that being a liberal makes them a good person. If you believe in a woman's right to choose it is OK to abuse women in your personal life, e.g. Clinton. Morality is defined by political belief rather than personal behavior.

This is very bizarre to conservatives who think personal behavior determines ones moral character, not political belief.

Being a liberal or a conservative has nothing to do with caring, compassion, industry, persistence, intelligence, etc. Not even really anything to do with "hipness" or "coolness." Although it certainly has a lot to do with "in-ness." I often think the greatest reason people remain nominally liberal long beyond their intellectual agreement with liberal positions is they are afraid of ostracism.

Being a conservative takes courage, but not a "personality change."

I absolutely understand why you're perturbed about the those leftist folks saying they wouldn't want you on their side because of your support for the war. I think it's a narrow-minded and self-defeating attitude.

--this is confusing as all hey. 1) MT has never intimated that he was going over to the left side , 2) is making an issue out of isolated commenters to a blog. a more scientific approach would be to look at the cross political cooperation with right wing groups/activists on a number of generally left oriented issues in the US, including the occupation of Iraq, trade issues, civil liberties, media conglomeration. As a matter of fact, one of the best and most energetic antiwar blog is from a rightwing libertarian, antiwar.com , a person whose politics are far from my left politics. The guy Amy Goodman interviewed today who is a leading ex-general, former Reagan defense dept. official, Blom...now a member of the Hudson Institute...Larry Korb, Reagan diplomat, etc. etc, Ray Close, CIA analyst-Bush era, etc. etc.
Really what people like Michael do is not follow very closely what is going on in movements and then draw conclusions from misinformed notions. This is otherwise known as ideology.

I don't see that happening.

--I believe you, but you haven't been paying much attention.

Oops. Typo. Meant to start out with "Changing from a liberal to a conservative doesn't require a "personality change." It just means you have a different idea about what the government should or should not do."

Meant to start out with "Changing from a liberal to a conservative doesn't require a "personality change." It just means you have a different idea about what the government should or should not do."

--The last liberal president was Nixon. Ever since then we haven't seen a liberal president.

"The last liberal president was Nixon. Ever since then we haven't seen a liberal president."

Calibar, you would never say that if you'd lived through the Nixon era as a liberal (like I did). We hated Nixon with a passion. You think you guys hate Bush--it was nothing compared to the way we hated Nixon. Hell, he had a war going on with draftees who were just a year or two older than I (graduated HS in 1973).

He looks liberal today because times have changed, but you gotta remember, he was running against McGovern who was going to send every man, woman and child in America a $1,000 check. For his time, Nixon was conservative--what we used to call country-club conservative.

Everybody has to be judged by the tenor of their times. Bill Clinton was far more liberal than Richard Nixon, it was just that the country had shifted so far to the right compared to then that Clinton's major accomplishments (welfare reform, NAFTA) look pretty conservative.

I don't mean to be a snarky commenter, but since when is fuck a boys-only word? Fuck, I say it all the time.

In any case, on a serious note, it is unfortunate that there are so many people on both sides who hold so dogmatically to the party line that they think there's no room for other views. On alternate days I consider myself either a moderate Republican or a small-l libertarian and my father, while not religious, is a very hard-core, party-line, conservative talk radio-loving Republican. You should have seen how upset he was when I voted for John McCain in the 2000 primary! The discussion ended with his grumbling, "Well, at least you're not voting for a Democrat." It's difficult to be an independent thinker sometimes.

By way of introdcing my point: for those new to my line of commentary, I should perhaps explain that in the past I've been called a "treasonous fucking bastard" by someone identifying himself (or as I've conjectured tongue-in-cheek, a certain herself) only as HA in this forum. And without any interference that I know of on Michael Totten's part.

However, now Michael Totten is a bit upset that someone said something scurrilous and stupid about him in the comment section of someone else's blog. Ah - welcome to the club, Michael. In a couple senses of the word "club".

I say something against the war, and they come crawling out of the woodwork, spraying venom: I must be some kind of far-left true-believer scum. A traitor, moreover.

Actually, I'm pretty much middle of the road on a great many issues, and there have always been moderates opposed to the war. It's not as if I don't have lots of company. I'm about where Kerry reportedly is, right now, on the issues of the Occupation. And that's a position his advisors have probably carefully calibrated as somewhere near America's political center. That position might be summed up as: however we got into this mess, we have a responsibility now.

I'm going to suggest something to Michael Totten, in the hope that he doesn't take it the wrong way. He has said that his blog is like his house. An unwelcome guest is an unwelcome guest. He has the right to boot anyone he pleases.

And that's true. I've even agreed with him on this, when the issue has come up.

One of the reasons Michael gives, however, for finding someone uncivil is that they use ad hominem attacks. That's uncivil.

However, you'll notice that uncivil, ad hominem attacks of commenters on other commenters is not only common on this site, but at times seems almost to be the norm. (At least in terms of frequency of postings, if not their length - length roughly correlates with nuanced analysis and lengthy quoting, which is all to the good.)

In a recent comment, I had to clarify what "the rule of law" means, to someone who confused the legal means by which Nazi Germany became an expansionist, genocidal state with "the rule of law." The rule of law is the rule of all by the law, equally. In Nazi Germany, when Jews were deprived of full citizenship, the rule of law was at an end. Do we have anything like the rule of law here in this comment section? I don't think so.

On Michael Totten's blog, it would appear that some are more equal that others. Michael himself has no peer - a direct attack on him can earn you his warning. But a direct attack by one commenter on another can sometimes be treated differently by him, depending on whether the attacker is (in some twisted sense, often enough) defending Michael's pro-war stance or casting aspersions on it. I've cast a few aspersions, but these are generally attended by some analysis, often suggesting where Michael has gotten his facts wrong.

In short, it's somewhat as if you were invited to a kegger party where the rule was, "don't throw a punch." But you get there and what it means is "if you throw a punch at me, the host, you're wrong. If you throw a punch at someone else, and I agree with the position you were arguing for, you won't get much heat from me. If you throw a punch - even in response to a punch - and your position is one I don't agree with, you won't even see me bat an eyelash, much less come to your defense."

A suggestion, Michael: take your house rules, and apply the rule of law. Don't put yourself, or anyone else, above the rule of law. Or below it. If a post seems to have an ad hominem attack on you or anyone else, simply delete it. That would mean deleting some number of mine, but that's only fair. It would earn you some respect (except from those who you're better off not dealing with anyway). It would certainly earn my respect.

And it would be hygienic - those with little more than venom at the rhetorical disposal would simply quit in frustration. Imagine how nice.

The best rule of any blog, and the one that works best for those whose complaints about the blog rules are whiny and self-righteous, is as follows:

If you don't like the rules, you know where the door is.

Turner, if it's so objectionable here, then start your own blog, and let the traffic give you feedback. I'd probably miss you more than HA though. is it an ad hominem attack if we call him the Inhofe Apologist?

Don't worry. You will return to the fold, and the herd will welcome you back with open arms... just not right now. Once the war is over, once stability is brought to Iraq, once democracy has taken hold in the Middle East, once the focus is no longer on blood for oil but social justice, racism, sexism, you'll be back in the fold. All your treasonous words today will long be forgotten where you will once again vote straight democrat.

it was just that the country had shifted so far to the right compared to then that Clinton's major accomplishments (welfare reform, NAFTA) look pretty conservative.

--really? the country shifted to the right or major corporate donors to both parties had shifted to the right? there is a difference i'm afraid.

All your treasonous words today will long be forgotten where you will once again vote straight democrat.

--why do you talk of the boys at CATO institute like that?

Lets face it. One of the biggest problems in this nations discourse is the inability of, seemingly, the majority of us to carry on rational discourse in a respectful, interested manner.

This from the Boob who spent most of the week over at Roger Simon's blog randomly insulting posters and throwing out accusations of fascism at those with whom he disagreed. I'll give you credit Tano, you got some balls.

No brains, but plenty of balls.

bk,

I'd probably miss you more than HA though.

I'm surprised you'd miss me at all. I'm touched! Really.

Enough niceties. Let's get to the facts. Michael Turner showed up here spewing bullshit about how we invaded Afghanistan to build a pipeline so that Bush could enrich himself and/or his cronies. It had nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing to do with the Taliban. Nothing to do with Al Qaeda.

I pricked Mikey's fantasy bubble by pointing out that there was still no Afghan pipeline and predicted there never would be. I also questioned his allegiance to his country because there is a high correlation between those Americans who spew bullshit like Turner's and those Americans who hate their own country.

Mikey didn't like having his fantasy shot down, nor his allegiance questioned. So what did he do? He tried to hide under MJT's skirt and called for me to be banned.

Michael Turner is a candy-ass who wants to spew his nonsense without being challenged. He knows his more bizarre ideas can't stand up to challenge.

And there is still no Afghan pipeline.

I was once a leftist, like many of you. Then I grew up.
As a small l libertarian I see the folly in both major parties, and vote the reasonable course regardless of party pressure.
That is all anyone can do.

Democrats tell Jewish group to take a flying fuck for hosting a speech by Cheney:

"The Jewish community in its organized fashion should not be engaging with the Bush campaign," said Florida Democratic Rep. Robert Wexler

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119878,00.html

Disgraceful.

I also questioned his allegiance to his country because there is a high correlation between those Americans who spew bullshit like Turner's and those Americans who hate their own country.

--decoded, this means 'anyone Ha disagrees with "hates their country"'. In other words Martin Luther King hated his country. So too did Rosa Parks I guess, who signed a petition calling for Bush not to bomb Afghanistan.

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