I also hope this puts and end to the Rumsfeld doctrine. The idea of small professional high-tech militaries is simply delusional if (an admittedly small number of) your soldiers aren't professional and need baby-sitters looking after them, which of course defeats the whole purpose of a small military.

Let's see, UCMJ has been around forever and you never took any notice of it until now. But now, you are outraged and so of course it's not good enough. Do you even think this soldier deserves a trial? Maybe not, let's just hang them all. I can think of lots of examples of crime in which I felt the verdict was wrong, not strict enough. Funny, nobody talks about denying the perps' civil rights when it happens here. But, they're just soldiers, they don't deserve the same protections we get.
I see a lot of racism and elitism in the way these soldiers are being vilified. I think a lot of people who don't have any contact with the military now have a convenient way to vilify regular soldiers because they are the 'other'. These soldiers did an awful thing (make no mistake) and they will be punished under the law, which is as it should be. There is no excuse for they're behavior, but since when do we condemn everyone for the crimes of a few?
By the way, if you feel gays should be allowed to stay in the military why don't you contact your elected officials since they are the ones that set that policy.

These soldiers did an awful thing (make no mistake) and they will be punished under the law, which is as it should be. There is no excuse for they're behavior, but since when do we condemn everyone for the crimes of a few?
By the way, if you feel gays should be allowed to stay in the military why don't you contact your elected officials since they are the ones that set that policy.

I think you need to reread MT's post. He's talking about ONE soldier, not condemning many let alone "everyone." He's also saying "if convicted on all charges." Doesn't that mean AFTER a trial?

Look, I am a supporter of the War on Terror and the Battle for Iraq. I thank God each and every night that men and women have volunteered to keep me free at the risk of their lives. I think Rummy is a great gift to our nation.

But we are better than this! Does everyone in wartime committ abuses? Yup. What seperates us is we punish such unacceptable behavior, while others tolerate, or even glory in it.

This must be condemned. The animals who did this? Have fun in Leavenworth. By discriminating between acceptable and unacceptable behavior among soldiers? We honor soldiers who act repsonsibly. We refuse to have the term "soldier" apply equally to 800 dead and their heroic comrades and these disgraces. It's not umpatriotic and it certainly isn't inappropriate.

Good post MT.

I think the JAG officers are suffering from paucity of insight. I think this article applies and the soldiers should be charged with the relevant excerpt:

ART. 99. MISBEHAVIOR BEFORE THE ENEMY
Any person subject to this chapter who before or in the presence of the enemy--
(3) through disobedience, neglect, or intentional misconduct endangers the safety of any such command, unit, place, or military property;
shall be punished by death or such punishment as a court- martial may direct.

Additionally, there is always the following for crimes not specifically covered:
934. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

The damage they have done to the security of the United States and the survival of their fellows demands their execution. They have provided aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States while engaged in criminal acts.

" What seperates us is we punish such unacceptable behavior'

Yeah, yeah, yeah, dont we all wish that were true.
At least these prison guards didnt round up a bunch of women and children and mow them down.
Any of you recall the "punishment" that Lt. Calley got? I seem to remember about a year and a half of house arrest on an army base, followed by a pardon. Sorry to point this out, but that is where the bar lies....

My, My, such bloodlust.

Prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law is sufficient.

And what's this?

"The damage they have done to the security of the United States and the survival of their fellows demands their execution. They have provided aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States while engaged in criminal acts."

"They" can apply to anyone not wrapped in a flag all day long; any dissenters; any opposition party criticism, etc., etc., ...... get a grip, or move to a totaliterian state -- LOL!

Well, "they" in the above sentence can't apply to people who have neither committed criminal acts, nor voluntarily submitted themselves to the military code of justice.

I think the death penalty is a bit excessive, but a public flogging before the iraqi people, followed by a suitable prison term, might be just about right. In the meantime, Sivits will (if convicted) probably receive the maximum punishment: a year in prison, demotion to private, forfeiture of pay, a fine, and a bad-conduct discharge. That may not be quite what he deserves given the damage these crimes have done to American efforts in the ME, but it's hardly a slap on the wrist, either.

There is as yet no evidence that this sort of behavior is systematic or widespread, and I think efforts by many on the left to use this incident to discredit the entire war effort are either misguided or cynically opportunist in nature. Let's remember that it was the Pentagon that first uncovered these abuses. The people who did these things should be punished. The thousands of brave men and women who had nothing to do with it should not be.

Torture?

Why don't you get your terms straight and then the rest of your post might pass for intelligent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, dont we all wish that were true.

It is true.

At least these prison guards didnt round up a bunch of women and children and mow them down.

No we left that to Saddam this time.

Any of you recall the "punishment" that Lt. Calley got? I seem to remember about a year and a half of house arrest on an army base, followed by a pardon. Sorry to point this out, but that is where the bar lies....

Calley spent years under house arrest and was pardone in 1974. You may not likt the punishment, but he was puished nonetheless. As for "that's where the bar lies," the similarities between My Lai and this case are what exactly? Both were offenses, that's where the similarity ends.

CALLING FOR THE RESIGNATION OF RUMSFIELD IS A DIVERSION FROM WHERE THEY DO NOT WANT OUR ATTENTION FOCUSED.

CALL FOR THE RESIGNATION OF THE DIRECTOR OF THE CIA, GEORGE J. TENET. HE IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE INTERROGATORS (IN TERROR GATORS). HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SPREAD OF U.S. TERROR.

AND FOR THE RESIGNATION OF THE MILITARY INTELLIGENCE BRIGADE COMMANDER, COLONEL THOMAS M PAPPAS AND LT COL. STEVE JORDAN, HEAD OF JOINT INTERROGATION AND DEBRIEFING.

Pass it On

"But we are better than this!...What seperates us is we punish such unacceptable behavior, while others tolerate, or even glory in it." [spc67]

A more basic distinction is rule of law. We do not invent punishments as we go along, such as "a public flogging before the Iraqi people" [Nathan]. We are limited to what the UCMJ calls for, even if he's convicted of all charges.

If existing, well established law doesn't satisfy you, then I wonder what you would have done in those soldiers' shoes.

All of these people should either be locked up for life or shot. They did not just torture the people they had charge of, but they commented act of treason by giving aid (Propaganda) and comfort (See look! The Americans are just as evil as Saddam!) to our enemies. I have heard for years that Military is too light on the solders who commit crimes and I think confirms everything I have heard. The military needs to be reformed and it needs it now.

And yes I know shit like this does go down in our prisons too and we really need to be fix that as well.

"All of these people should either be locked up for life or shot." [Derek]

Hmm. Sounds like the kind of thinking that leads to prisoner abuse.

Michael, three questions:

1. If the penalty for selling dope were decreased to, say, one month in prison, would you be happier that Sivits was facing a year in prison?

2. If Sivits was facing 20 years in prison, would you be happier that people selling dope were only getting a couple of years?

3. If the answers to the above questions are "no", then would you acknowledge that comparing Sivits punishment to that of dope dealers is a red herring?

Philly,

I am referring to justice applied to people who chose to live under totalitarian rule in order to safeguard their country. As was mentioned elsewhere, the people who committed these crimes were subject to the UCMJ of their own free will.

What apparently has slipped a lot of people's attention is not that I want them executed for being cruel to prisoners, that is a separate article of the UCMJ. I want them executed for actions that damage the mission and endanger their fellows. They should be imprisoned for the acts, they should be executed for recording and distributing them. The first is a matter of bad discipline, the second is a matter of discrediting their nation and branch of service in public.

At the very least, the actions of the Abu Gharib idiots has made it less likely that the enemy will surrender because they will not be sure that they will be treated honorably. Executing the idiots will do a little to prevent recurrance of the same crimes, but it will do a lot to aid the mission.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj2.htm
ART. 93. CRUELTY AND MALTREATMENT
ART. 97. UNLAWFUL DETENTION

Pat,

Isn't the answer to each of your three questions is "no"? Stating that what the torturers did is far worse than selling dope doesn't commit one to any position about what the penalties for these deeds should be.

How about if we take it down a notch or seven.

How about if all the people involved are punished in some way commensurate with their acts and their level of responsibility?

The soldiers who did the abusing should not be allowed to excuse their acts as following orders. The ones who engaged in serious abuse should be punished severely, 10 or 20 years at least. None should get less than dishonorable discharge and a year or 5 or 10 in prison. America believes in justice, and that means that the punishment fits the crime, not someone's conception of our PR needs.

But the most important thing is to expose the whole festering sore to the air and the light. Those soldiers were almost certainly acting under the direction of unscrupulous officers and intelligence agents who think they were acting to protect America even as they disgraced her ideals. Those are the people who must be exposed and punished.

"All of these people should either be locked up for life or shot." [Derek]

Hmm. Sounds like the kind of thinking that leads to prisoner abuse.
Posted by E Rey at May 9, 2004 01:14 PM

Oh really? How is that? Wanting people punished for their crime is abuse?

1. With wanton cruelty these "solders" committed acts of abuse, rape, and murder. Thus proving themselves unworthy of ever walking the streets again.
2. They also took pictures as souvenirs of their sadistic acts. Thus proving they are uncommonly evil and sadistic.
3. They did these things to 50+ people. Anyone who committed assault 50+ times you would end up jail time close to life imprisonment. If you knowing allow you friends to commit crimes and you doing nothing, you are responsible for the acts.
4. These people were in authority above these prisoners. Those who abuse their authority should be punished very harshly.
5. They committed an act of treason by repeatedly committing these acts and taking documented proof of said actions. This is a great shame for the US and they have delivered a great propaganda victory for our enemies, a victory which may not be over come.
6. This torture is causing a great loss of faith in the US military among the American people. And the American people losing heart is the sure way we can lose the global war on terrorism.

For all these reason, all of the people involved should be put in jail for life, or shot. (After a fair trial of course.)

Moira> As a soldier (and I am a Specialist, not an Officer), I woudl gladly throw the book at them. With the exception of the female soldiers invovled (as I do not believe in a man ever laying his hands on a woman for any reason), I would gladly take me kevlar and smack them repeatedly with it, until their remains made Sadaam himself cringe.

Patrick> <>

I would agree, though our methods of execution are far too soft. I even have growing reservations about the death penalty, except when it comes to those I have a certain link to. Because their actions dishonor me, I take it personally.

As for Rumsfeld, I think he should resign, and it's really a shame as I liked him.

There should be skid marks left on the pavement outside of the military compound left by Sivits when his ass hits the pavement after getting his dishororable discharge.

Then there should be claw marks left as he tries to fight against the big, burly men hauling him to Levenworth for the rest of his miserable life.

Ain't no excuse for any of this.

Jim, that was my point, although I don't see how, if you answer no to the first two questions you can answer no to the third.

This is just something that bugs me. People compare the injustice of what happened to X when Y got off lightly or got the book thrown at him. That's not the proper way of looking at it. Clearly Michael is unhappy that the longest sentence possible is one year. Fine, but don't try to then compare it to the sentences that other people get for far different crimes.

Pat,

We're going OT into arcane logic or philosophy of law or something, but hey.

Upon reflection last night, it occured to me that the logic of your post would be spot on, but only if MT's only argument that the punishment of the torturer was too light was that it was not much worse than the punishment of the pot seller. That logic does hold and makes the answer to #3 an unavoidable "yes, it's a red herring." But as MT has other arguments, to go along with it, he isn't saying that all he cares about is that the torturer get much more punishment than the dope dealer. He's saying that the fact the torturer isn't getting much more punishment than the lesser crime gets is one reason to believe the punishment is inappropriate.

Ginny, thanks for Col. Pappas ID -- HE should be court-martialed, along with Gen. Karpinski.

On the punishments, as a though experiment, I wonder if you would accept the guilty undergoing the same humiliating abuse: being stripped naked with bags over heads or not, being laughed at by the same & opposite sex, being naked on a leash, having dogs threaten you; all with pictures being taken and released world wide? I think most commenters would think such punishment too lenient. [If it was an option, and I was one of those guilty (it could happen to any in that situation -- which is why War is Hell), I can imagine accepting it rather than losing a year of life in prison.]

My thought experiment is the question about how bad is the act, vs. the damage of the publicity.

[The alleged rape and dog bite are more serious crimes.]

Patrick L -- it's extremely clear that the publicity now, more than the acts of Oct-Dec 2003, are what is most damaging. Justice is a Grey area...

Hey, let's compromise here. Offer psychotherapy for the abusers who had no career experience as abusers in an official capacity. Check resumes - CIA and "consultants" in column A, all the other poor saps in column B. Give column B the benefit of the doubt.

Likewise, offer free psychological counseling to any Iraqi who can make a persuasive case that he or she was similarly manipulated under Saddam's police state. (Same two-column system - full penalties and prison terms for the careerists.)

But just to make the right statement anyway, and satisfy the Iraqi's desire for justice: have Rummy flogged on al-Jazeera. That way, it's only cruel and unusual punishment for one person. On al-Jazeera, few Arabs would maintain that it had all been faked. Hire Saudis to do it - they are the experts, right?

Justice? Maybe not. But plenty of the right symbolism, don't you think? And many of you seem to be arguing more from symbolism than from proportionate penalties and mitigating circumstances.

U.S. military recruits who ended up in America's torture system in Iraq were condemned to the cruel and unusual punishment of going to live in a lawless police state - MI's annex in various prisons - even as they were assured they were serving as part the bulwark against lawless police states, like Saddam's and whatever an al-Sadr regime would look like. And how did they deserve this? For committing no particular crime but choosing to serve their country? How mind-bending. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Let's show a little compassion here.

But of course, we still need a profoundly symbolic gesture .... OK, how about Rummy and Wolfie? Would that be enough?

OK, OK, Bremer and Sanchez too. They are due to be replaced soon anyway. If the flogging reduced them to gibbering wrecks, it would probably be only an acceleration of a process that's already under way. Certainly Rummy's not sounding too coherent these days.

"He's saying that the fact the torturer isn't getting much more punishment than the lesser crime gets is one reason to believe the punishment is inappropriate."

Which is the reason behind the first two questions I had. You've already agreed that making the prison guard's punishment 12 times as long as the dope dealer's (but still only a year) doesn't satisfy you as to the prison guard, and making the prison guard's sentence 20 years doesn't satisfy you as to the dope dealer. So effectively what you are saying is that dope dealing shouldn't be punished at all. Fine, but that's a whole 'nother debate, and relative sentences is not the issue.

Pat,

I don't think so. It's consistent for me to reply as follows:

I think the dope dealer should get two months, and the prison guard 20 years. But my argument that the prison guard was being let off too easily derived in part from his punishment being about the same as what a dope dealer gets. This gives evidence that his punishment is too light, even though I think dope dealers get a bit too harshly punished at present. But it doesn't mean that all I care about is relative punishments. I also argue that the guard should get 20 years on others grounds (namely that he caused enormous suffering, jeopardized the war effort, etc.). So, I'm not committed to saying "yes" to either of your first two questions.

Sheesh, this is extremely arcane legal theory, about which I know little. I'm getting a brain ache. Anyway, it's clear that your argument devastates any case for harsher punishment that is based merely on relativistic grounds. But someone who uses other grounds in addition isn't making such a case. He's assuming that the dope dealer's punishment is somewhere in the right ballpark for non-relativistic reasons (even though he believes the dope dealer may be punished a bit too harshly).

The point I am trying to make (and I'll admit I'm making a complete hash of it) is that it does us very little good to compare the sentences handed out for two very different types of crime, particularly when one of the crimes many people would not punish at all.

If you want to determine an appropriate punishment, it makes far more sense to compare the punishment given to prison guards in this country found guilty of abusing their prisoners. And I suspect if you looked closely at that, you'd find that the one-year potential sentence is a lot closer to what's been handed down in the past than 20 years.

Good point.

wow [original comment censored]...

My opinion is that the ranking should face war crimes charges in front of the international community and the rest of them should consider themselves lucky if they ever see the outside of a jail cell.

I hold the US military in high regard. It's rare that I feel like a niave chump for feeling that way, but this is one such example.

If the New Yorker article turns out to have merit, I'm not even sure how I will react.

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