Sick and twisted.

He would be right, if these pictures were of a stage show.

Totten,

Rush is just being flippant and joking around. That doesn’t mean he personally condones these actions. Also, underneath it all he’s making some very valid points. I think you're making a big deal out of nothing.

P. Whitnety, are you serious? Rush is using this incident to score points off the NEA and pop culture dingbats. The soldiers were terrorizing and sexually abusing prisoners for their own sick amusement. What would your reaction be if a friend or relative were arrested, and then abused in the same manner while in jail? Would you think it was "nothing"? I am a 'card-carrying bloodthirsty warmonger' -- and if these scum don't get at least 10 years in Leavenworth, I'll say they got off too easy.

A couple of things occur to me, one was photographs of American and British POW's forced into a barn by the retreating Waffen SS and set on fire. The building was still smoldering when my dad's patrol came on it. The photos, though in black and white are horrendous. The second thing I think of is the video of Daniel Pearl having his throat slit (though I have never watched it - I don't need that kind of horror in my life) and the third is photographs of mangled bodies in Israel resulting from suicide bombers.

As Americans, we cannot condone the behaviors of a few (6 -10 -20?) reservist MP's and their boss and we must, absolutely MUST see that these folk get the full extent of consequences allowed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice if and when found guilty. That is what America is all about, justice for victims and malefactors.

That Justice is present also stands in stark and glaring contrast with the actions of the Arab/Persian Middle East. Torture, murder, mutilation, all is common practices. The humiliation of women is a constant factor of their society. Honor killings (talk about oxymoron’s) for suspected (not even proved) behavior; stoning women via Shahira Law for having been raped by your brother-in-law. My God, the list of dehumanizing practices of the Arabic/Persian Middle East is unbelievable.

Yet, yet, I do not hear massive public outcry from the press, the left, Senators of the Democrat persuasion. I do not see Middle East governments fall all over themselves to bring perpetrators to justice. I do not hear, sad to say anything, from the same folks about the hatred and anti-Semitic ravings of the government sponsored mullahs.

We have our share of vile and vicious people in all walks of life, including in the Military. The difference between us and the Islamo-fascists is that we are willing to do something about it. Sadly, the rest of the "world" fails to recognize that.

What's going to go completely unappreciated is that our society is generally horrified and outraged by these acts. Also unappreciated is that the whistle was blown by a fellow soldier.

So individual and small groups of American soldiers are capable of horrendous acts. This we knew, because even American soldiers are human. But American society does not accept this, recoils and demands justice, and that sets us way the hell apart from the Arab cultures suffering apoplexies about what's happened here while rallies are held to celebrate the videotaped murder of a pregnant mother and her four young daughters.

This abuse has been one hell of an own-goal, and combined with what appears to be a march to the rear in Fallujah (regardless of what bloggy strategists are thinking, it's dreadfully significant that that's what it looks like, especially to the kaffiyeh-sporting nutjobs now proudly toting their AK-47s around the streets in Fallujah itself), I don't know how we're going to recover.

To answer your question, though:

How embarrassing is it that Rush Limbaugh is the most popular conservative in the media?

Generally true of the most popular __________ in the media. People at the top of his trade, whether right or left, are in the business of providing enough fodder for their listeners to feel good about listening, but not so much substance that they can't listen while also doing something else. This puts a cap on critical thinking and places a premium on catchiness.

The difference between us and the Islamo-fascists is that we are willing to do something about it.

--that's why we're so cushy with the royal saudi king?

Michael,

A conservatives opinion - Rush is a self-centered blowhard whose opinions sometimes border on idiocy! But, sometimes they don't. Sifting through the chaff takes time.

GMROPER has it on the money. Well written.

As for Rush? He's good entertainment, at least he was a year ago when I swore off him forever, and he occasionally had a valid point or two. But to rely on him for facts? Nah.

I am appalled, shocked and mad at the U.S. soldiers accused of abusing and torturing Iraqi prisoners. Because of these horrendous acts by a small group of sick individuals, the reputation of U.S. soldiers as so-called "liberators" is all of a sudden reduced to that of sadists. I know Islamic terrorists do terrible acts, but I have never heard of them denigrating their Western prisoners by forcing them to perform humiliating acts, naked or otherwise.

www.rafaelrobertdelfin.com

OT: To MT

Michael, I have a quick(or not so quick) question for you: What do you think consitutes victory in the War on Terror? What exactly, is Victory? How will we know it when it occurs? Can it occur? What metrics should we use to measure victory? I am writing a post on the subject, and am asking around the blogosphere about what people think victory will look like. Sorry to go hijack the thread.

Turns out there were few foreign fighters in Fallujah

Then what about this?

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040503-110300-1693r

From Belmont Club

Michelle,

Well....I guess I never thought of it that way. Maybe I was wrong. I'm going to have to think long and hard about this issue.

Many are outraged that the Abu Ghraib abuses have been labeled "torture" when in fact most of those abuses have more in common with university hazing (which is quite cruel) than with genuine torture. And our press gets more worked up about this stuff than about real torture going on elsewhere in the world - including Saddam-era Iraq.

Please check out Rev. Sensing,
http://donaldsensing.com/2004_05_01_archive.html#108369973023138221
who notes that military prosecutors will have a really tough time with a jury of military folk, whose Commander in Chief has, essentially, pronounced them guilty before the trial.

Humiliation is not quite the same as torture. Most of this seems H; though sodomy is certainly torture (and is FAR too common throughout the US, see the orgs against prison rape.)
But humiliation seems to have worked -- meaning dressing terrorists in women's clothes or having them naked together was enough to make them give out some useful intelligence. Maybe save some American lives, or other Iraqis.

And there's the fem Gen. MP vs. male Col. Mil Intel issue, too.

I don't in any way condone the behavior of these soldiers. It's unacceptable, dishonorable, and discipline should be harsh and swift. But...standing naked while some female soldier points at your junk and gives a "thumbs up" is torture? Naked pyramids is torture?

Humilating? Yes. Degrading? Of course. But I would get over it in about an hour (Unless, of course, pictures of me were displayed on world-wide television. Now that would be really humiliating).

Broomstick beatings and glow-sticks up the butt are another issue.

In Baghdad, Maj. Gen. Martin Dempsey has said foreigners account for just 1 percent or so of guerrillas. Of 8,000 guerrilla suspects jailed across Iraq, only 127 hold foreign passports, the U.S. military said.

In the south, no one has suggested that foreigners pack the ranks of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's al-Mahdi Army. The group, which has fought U.S. and allied troops across southern Iraq, is made up of Shiite Muslim radicals, many of whom hail from the slums of Baghdad.

And before all you never-served types get all hot and bothered, you should check out what the Iraqis are actually saying. Like this guy here:

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/archives/2004_05_01_iraqthemodel_archive.html#108368415340398387

The real point here is that the system is self correcting; abuse occured, it was reported, and it was investigated, and it is going to get acted upon. The Army has taken responsibility and will punish the guilty.

Except for the pictures, this is really no different from the incidents that have already been prosecuted and forgotten about already.

As an American soldier I feel awful about this,a nd I would gladly support beheading the rogue soldiers (while placing tehri head soutside the front entrance to teh prison as a warning to other soldiers about what happens whne you abuse your job), and having Bush publicly apologize outside the gates of Abu Graib as Andrew Sullivan suggested.

While I do enjoy taking pot shots at the NEA grant system, this isn't the time of place. The soldiers have disgraced their uniform and their country,a nd shoudl eb punished. They have also destroyed what we are trying to accomplish in Iraq and any punishment short of Draconian is an endorsement.

I think that Rush was probably joking. But for something this extreme, it's still totally inappropriate.

These troops were guilty of assassinating our good names. That's what we trade on: the fact that thugs like Hussein practice torture and brutality, and we don't. We're better than this, and it's a significant part of our duty over there to show them how good government works by demonstrating it.

If we were Syria this would be par for the course. But we're the City on the Hill, so we need to live to a higher standard.

So, with all that said, these troops (and their commander) need to be jailed. Systems need to be put in place to ensure that this doesn't happen again. And Rush needs to shut the f*&k up, because the gravity of the situation demands better.

What Iraqis Are Saying

What Iraqis are Saying 2

What Iraqis are Saying 2

1. Rush is an entertainer

2. He is more populist than anything

3. You probably wouldn't know what actual conservativism is even if Edmund Burke rose from the dead and slapped you with the Federalist papers

4. Rush is an entertainer

While I don't listen to every minute of Rush every day - I do occasionally listen. I heard him decry what was done to these Iraqi prisoners - and no excuses.

But he DOES joke around a lot on his show. I think that his point was that some are unceasingly going on and on about how we are the most awful nation on earth because this occurred (and never mind that we are immediately taking action to deal with it and punish the offenders.) Yet - these same people would laugh at our entertainers doing almost the same thing.

Yes. Doing this type of thing willingly and being subjected to it by force are totally in a different universe. Probably a bad point for Rush to make.

But I don't for a minute think that he either condones what was done, or was making excuses for it. Just attempting to illuminate a little hypocrisy on the left.

calibar:

When I read comments like this, "I want those horrible soldiers who were responsible for this to be publicly punished and humiliated." the person loses credibility. Seems to me that he's not looking for justice.

There will be justice though, I'm sure all the soldiers involved are already feeling the "public punishment and humiliation" of their actions without the Official Justice being done yet. Don't think so? There are pictures of the soldiers posing with them. Everyone in the world will know the soldiers names and deeds. It'd be interesting to follow up on the people charged with these acts in about 5 years and see how many are still living.

What they did was wrong and justice will be served. What I don't care for is the arab world getting all bent out of shape looking at these pictures when it is common practice for them to do the same to their own. Seems very one-sided and myopic to me.

"I want those horrible soldiers who were responsible for this to be publicly punished and humiliated."

--so you're saying that if someone occupied your country and did that to your relatives, you'd just be happy with less than that? I'm not too sure about that.
-------------------------
What I don't care for is the arab world getting all bent out of shape looking at these pictures when it is common practice for them to do the same to their own.

--uhm, actually a lot of arabs also try to protest their governments. think of Egypt for example. They show up (unarmed) to protest and soldiers with guns outnumber them by 10-1...And you know where the $ and guns for those soldiers come from...ditto most of the "Arab world". Not that I mean to be 'myopic' though.

On a bad day Rush's insight and analysis of current events are far more original and creative than any other voice in the media. He consistently brings a fresh perspective to topics that one never hears elsewhere in the media.

There is no greater media cliche' these days than the conventional wisdom that Limbaugh's nothing but a loudmouth rightwing reactionary. In reality he is a pivotal player in power politics and no republican could gain the White House if Limbaugh was his antagonist. The man has cultivated and held on for 17 years to an audience so vast and so loyal that it engenders a certain scornful envy whenever the topic comes up amongst media types.

His comments on the prison abuse photos did not necessarily reflect his best side, but were a somewhat lame effort to place the matter in a broader perspective. When you're speaking in public for 15 hours a week, it's pretty damn easy to meander into bad taste once in awhile. Nevertheless, he routinely imparts more creative analysis of the issues in one hour than Totten does in a month.

Father Coughlin was also amusing and quite creative.

I was listening.
Limbaugh decried the abuse and then introduced humor to the mix by saying that some of the pictures of folks who were scantily clad/naked could be seen in your average video, thereby making the case (1) that some (emphasis on 'some')of the pictures were being overblown by mistaking disgusting and tasteless to outright torture and (2) some of the pop videos out there are rank.

At no time was Limbaugh defending or even kinda, sorta, maybe, defending torture.

I don't think the distinction between "torture" and "humiliation" is one that needs to be made. There's no justification for either one, our soldiers know that, and they must be dealt with accordingly. The beautiful part is that they won't be humiliated or tortured for what they did, because our system doesn't practice "eye for an eye" justice, and I'm glad. That's one of the things setting us apart.

As for Limbaugh, it's incredibly irritating that he's so popular. Anything that gives the intellectual elites another reason to point and feel smug about how much smarter they are than "average" Americans is not a happy thing. It's easy to overlook the fact that people aren't listening to Rush for information, but rather entertainment. I find that he provides neither, but I also don't watch "Survivor" and it's no skin off my nose that other people do. Nothing he joked about is any worse than material we've all seen on The Sopranos.

People need to realize that there are certain times when opinions made in jest simply cannot be explained away or condoned. Saying Rush is "just an entertainer" is simply no excuse, and he's slid by on just that excuse for years.

As an American soldier I feel awful about this,a nd I would gladly support beheading the rogue soldiers (while placing tehri head soutside the front entrance to teh prison as a warning to other soldiers about what happens whne you abuse your job),

Green Baron: You really would support executing the soldiers by beheading as a punishment for this?

This is a lot more than a few rogue MP's. Major General Taguba's report (which Rumsfeld and Bush still had not read as of yesterday) points to "a complete breakdown in discipline" at the prison. We appear to be seeing the fruits of the lack of accountability that the Administration and its supporters have demanded, as well as its idiotic fetish for the privatization of security, reconstruction and now intelligence interrogation services.

Heads need to roll.

>>Father Coughlin was also amusing and quite creative.

RUSH IS A FASCIST!!!! SAY IT!!!!

Calibar:
"uhm, actually a lot of arabs also try to protest their governments. think of Egypt for example. They show up (unarmed) to protest and soldiers with guns outnumber them by 10-1...And you know where the $ and guns for those soldiers come from...ditto most of the "Arab world". Not that I mean to be 'myopic' though. "

The money that goes to Egypt is 'buy-off' money for them not to attack Israel. It is unfortunate but true.
Also please understand, I am not condoning what happened.

Michael Moore is an entertainer and a comedian. So I guess according to some people no one should criticize him and his big mouth either.

Here is a link to Major General Taguba's report, completed in late February. Know that you're reading it before Bush and Rumsfeld have!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

Mr. Totten:
Did you see Little Green Footballs this morning?
He's just to the left, on your blogroll, but here's the link anyway:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10933_The_Horror

Michael Moore is an entertainer and a comedian. So I guess according to some people no one should criticize him and his big mouth either. Posted by Michael J. Totten at May 5, 2004 08:51 AM

I don't know anyone who has said that Rush SHOULD NOT be cricitized. If Moore says something funny, I'd have no problem with it (let me know when it happens). I heard that bit and I laughed at it at the time because I hadn't seen the really horrific photos, yet, just a few that could be printed on a newspaper (which were fairly tame in comparison to the disturbing ones). When I saw some more photos, I felt bad about laughing because most of them were in no way funny and couldn't be construed that way, so I felt as if I'd taken part in some tasteless bit.

I fail to see how I laughed at the defense of torture, though. SOME of the photos ARE analogous to what you see in some of the crap videos out there.

Criticize, condemn, lampoon, whatever Limbaugh all you wish. Debate is good & this is something to debate. But to say that he's defending terrorism is as hyperbolic as if he'd have said ALL the photos were akin to a pop video. And rushing to the extreme and saying "oh, well, you're just saying that Rush is above scrutiny" is in no way constructive, especially when added to the instance of when Rush Limbaugh is used in an analogy with Michael Moore.

He is embarassing, but it is not surprising that such people exist and have some popularity.

Is he really the most popular conservative? Yuck.

Moderate conservatives would do well to distance themselves from him. I guess I am one of them, so that's what I am doing here.

The money that goes to Egypt is 'buy-off' money for them not to attack Israel. It is unfortunate but true. Also please understand, I am not condoning what happened.

--unfortunately that's not how Arabs who try to protest their authoritarian governments see it. When they protest for democracy and see the guns pointing at them were paid and sent from America's gov't, well they doubt the idea that the support is merely 'buyoff' $. That sounds more like excuse making than serious explanation.

And it's kinda hard to lecture Arabs about democracy when (if we are to believe General Taguba) some 60%, at least, of Iraqi prisoners are just people picked up by Americans in random raids that have nothing to do with either the resistance or criminal activity.

Keep patting yourself on the backs about how you are "moderate concervatives." You're not the ones who have to go out there and win the fuckin' war.

Is a moderate conservative sorta like a black caucasian?
Come on.

--unfortunately that's not how Arabs who try to protest their authoritarian governments see it. When they protest for democracy and see the guns pointing at them were paid and sent from America's gov't, well they doubt the idea that the support is merely 'buyoff' $. That sounds more like excuse making than serious explanation.

This is the myopia I speak of! They aren't seeing the big picture. It's kind of like blaming the gun maker instead of the person pulling the trigger.

This is the myopia I speak of! They aren't seeing the big picture. It's kind of like blaming the gun maker instead of the person pulling the trigger.

--if the gunmaker weren't paying for and supplying the guns, the governments would be a lot easier to protest and pressure for democracy. although it's not clear the US wants that either.

calibar: Is the US evil?

This torture-scandal has been going for several days, and I've yet to see a wing-nut blame it on Bill Clinton's penis.

It must have been Bill Clinton's penis.

Actually, Rush is spot on with this observation. If these were Mapplethorpe photos we'd be hearing about how only prudes in flyover country could be offended.

Pat -- Robert Mapplethorpe wasn't a fucking Iraqi, he was a fucking American. And Robert Mapplethorpe, and fraternity boys carrying out an initiation ceremony, aren't claiming to fighting to bring civilization and democracy to a people without it. And the people in Mapplethorpe photos and people in fraternity initiations are engaged in these activities WILLINGLY.

Pat -- your Mapplethorpe comment inspired me to check out the Village Voice website, where I find these great, almost 'Mapplethorpesque' paragraphs from Richard Goldstein:

"One reason why these photos are such a sensation is that they are stimulating. Especially the image of that woman grinning over a pyramid of naked men. In civilian life, she managed a dairy bar; in the military, she's the Phallic Female, forcing guys to parade around naked and jerk off before her. This really gets the kitten-with-a-whip crowd drooling. And when it comes to sadistic pleasure, there's nothing like forcing a man to give a simulated blowjob or take a peg-leg–sized anal probe. Shit, you won't even see that on Oz.

But that's the great perk of war. You can unleash the darkest reaches of your libido. Murdering, mutilating, and raping are all part of the adrenaline rush—and nothing feels better than that forbidden thrill in the name of God and country.

The most distressing thing in those photos from Abu Ghraib was also the least remarked upon. That soldier standing over his prostrate prisoners, holding his thumb up, was wearing surgical gloves. Was he afraid of being contaminated by his victims' blood, feces, semen—or just their humanity? We'll never know. But it's an astonishing symbol of what America is becoming: a nation where suffering is tolerable—even pleasurable—as long as the shit doesn't get on our hands."

Comparing Mapplethorpe to torture photos is like comparing Playboy to kiddie porn and snuff films. You might object to all of the above, but I certainly hope you don't do so for the same reasons each time.

(For the record I have no objection to Mapplethorpe or Playboy. I'm just saying.)

Neither Rush nor I are standing up for the people who did this. But you guys are solely objecting on the basis that it was not voluntary. The pictures would be fine to Markus if they were posed by willing participants, fine to Michael if they were shot by Mapplethorpe. I happen to think they're disgusting no matter whether they're consensual or not, no matter whether they're done in an Iraqi jail or in a Super Bowl halftime show.

But then, I'm a knuckle-dragging conservative.

A. Those wires in that picture MJT posted don't have electricity in them. When Saddam was in power, they did.

B. We've got our own cultural differences to work out regarding societal norms and sexuality.

C. A. and B. are completely beside the point right now. There's a war on, people. Focus.

Whether we like it or not, image is everything on this one. Unless the next image is of these clowns being brought to justice, we all suffer, together.

calibar: Is the US evil?

--whatever does that mean? is the US evil? that's like, 'is the US perfect'? "Are Americans handsome'? Gimme a break, what a way to run away from an argument, throw out an irrelevant question.
Now, back to your claim about Arabs having a problem with democracy. Are you saying that giving authoritarian governments in the mideast guns to shoot down democracy protestors or to put them in jail is a way to encourage democracy? I could care less if that policy is 'evil', I'm more interested if it correlates with your belief that Arabs have some problem understanding democracy.

And the people in Mapplethorpe photos and people in fraternity initiations are engaged in these activities WILLINGLY.

Correct. We agree. But, this makes my point.
The photos themselves, sans context, wouldn't be all that dissimilar.
Same with a crappy pop video.

I think MJT is inserting context (captured iraqis being humiliated) into a flippant point where none was intended.

Barry> I am an American soldier (though Finance and not MP), and these soldiers have brought dishonor to the uniform of the United States Army and to the United States. Their actions have set back what good has been done by the Coalition and the CPA.

Also, I have no desire to be part of a green wall of solidarity blunting the punishments of these sociopaths. I find that in professions of any kind (whether it be some unions or the police or the clergy), people are too quick to "defedn their own". The same thing occurs with parents who are too quick to bail their kids out of trouble.

I do not know what the maximum penalty for torture of POWs is according to UCMJ. I just think a draconian punishment would set up the message that we will no longer "defend our own".

Perhaps I do go too far, but as far as I am concerned these soldeirs have put their sadisitic pleasures above their duty to be humane to POWs and their duty to represent their nation and uniform with honor, so I still want an example made of them, but I guess severed heads may go too far, but they went too far, too.

Ricky> Not to nitpick, but people from India could be considered black caucasians.

As a conservative (probably more of a neo-conservative - er neo-nazi), I am extremely embarrassed about that statement from Rush. He is very talented and insightful yet very foolish and ignorant at times.

Some things are too serious to joke about. And Rush gives the enemy reason to believe we are everything they say we are.

As a former soldier, I know what these MPs and others did is indefensible. Soldiers are not trained to do this, quite the opposite. Many soldiers and Marines risk their lives daily in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in order to not incur civilian casualties. Why do you think we are working so hard for peace in Fallujah? These rogue 'soldiers' are not representative of members of the U.S. military any more than a child molester or rapist is representive of the general population. They and their superiors must be punished swiftly and harshly.

Comparing Mapplethorpe to torture photos is like comparing Playboy to kiddie porn and snuff films.

Uh, one of Mapplethorpe's subjects was an underage girl. No snuff art to his credit, though.

Dittos on the observations that coerced and uncoerced porno are two different things.

Don't forget the online editor the Weekly Standard. Link at homepage.
I hope these guys are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law ... but at the same time, let's not get too crazy and call them Nazi-like. ... Worse happens in frat houses across America ... bad pictures with some guys playing naked Twister. It's bad, but we don't want to get too crazy.

That's not a defense, but it is rather minimizing it.

I find it humorous that some individuals defend everything related to the war, in some form or another. Just as I find it humorous that some individuals oppose everything related to the war. I wonder what goes on in their minds as they interpert information in their reality.

Those in the Arab world decried these acts, and some (even a few here) called them hypocrites, disingenious, etc. "There was worse under Saddam!", they quickly point out. "There's worse in Iran!", they note with fervor. But they miss the point.

For the individual in many countries, there is still a feeling of helpless serfdom. They are under the thumb of a Powerful and Undefeatable (by the citizens of that country) force. Many individuals feel as though they have no impact, no say, no power to change the world.

That's where the Iraqi people have been for decades.

Now along comes a 'liberating' power. But, really, for many individual Iraqis, things are still out of their hands. Be it a benelovent ruling power, or a mad dictator, the individual still has no power.

Enter the promise of democracy. We've wanged a war of minds to convience the Iraqi people that WE are different. We are NOT like what they had before. Yet, here is, perhaps to their minds, proof that they are still powerless. They can make no impact. People are still disappearing into prisons where we now know torture/abuse/degrading behaviour/whatever you want to call it exists. They have no news, they are not permitted to see these missing ones, and now there are reports that at least one person died under such actions and no paperwork was completed to guarentee that the individuals family would ever find out.

America is different than Saddam-era Iraq. A true democracy is different than ruthless dictatorship. However, a picture is worth a thousand words. The argument isn't "How bad was this really?", but "How do we regain the trust of a people who have been mistreated for decades?"

Perhaps you've seen an abused child, wife or even an abused pet. Even placed in a healthy environment, with lots of positive reinforcement, one single unintentional act can completely reverse the improvement of the subjects demeanor and ability to trust. I think perhaps the Iraqis are in a similar situation. They were taken out of a directly abusive situation, but are still seeing acts intentional and unintentional that give lie to the promise of security and freedom.

A person's understanding of reality can be based only on their perceptions of the world around them. The perceptions of, at least, some Iraqis have been seriously changed by these acts.

No matter how serious or casual you believe the actions of the soliders to be, the Iraqi (and Arab)perceptions are important to ever easing the threat of insurgency and terrorism.

You are allowed to support the war and decry an act within the war. You are allowed to support the president and disagree with his decisions. Acting as an apologist for acts that will have an impact on the minds of the Iraqis, damages any opinion you give in support of other aspects of the war.

Ratatosk

"Yet again I looked and see! Chaos entwined with Order, hidden within and ever changing."
- Revelations Redux Chapter 23 verse 42

Totten,

it's not "torture", it's ABUSE. And maybe Rush was trying to bring some MUCH NEEDED perspective on this. Apparently it's needed.

Anyone who is shocked at these pictures- then I am shocked at you. Why isn't the humiliation justified? After all, these guys are to be interrogated.

I'm in college and this is nothing compared to what I see in fraternities and several parties.

The way to get these guys to break and spill information, it seems, is to have women humiliate them. Women are some type of soft point to these guys. For example, if these guys need to be moved somewhere, they will get a woman to drive the truck. Why? Because it has an impact on them. It is the military objective to get that impact so we can get the information needed.

My problem with this is actually Mr. Totten. He is being very inconsistant.

On one hand, he says he thinks Saddam Hussein should die.

Yet, when he is faced with the fellow butchers and murderers of Saddam, he does not think they should die, but he is 'shocked' that they are humiliated!

If Totten was consistant, he should be calling for these terrorists to die along with Saddam. My guess is that they are still alive because of the information they have. Since this war will be won or lost based on intelligence, is putting these murderers into a naked pyramid worth getting information that will save lives? Absolutely.

So Mr. Totten, which is it? You cannot call for Hussien's death and be 'shocked' at the humiliation of Iraqi prisioners. Either Saddam and the terrorists must die OR it is unfair that the terrorists are being 'humiliated' along with poor poor Saddam.

Choose.

Add Jeff Jarvis to the nearly-defending-torture brigade:

. . . let's remember that this is a war; the people being interrogated were likely suspected in movements to bring more violence upon not only American soldiers but also the Iraqi people. The means were wrong but the end was right: Bringing peace to Iraq and protecting its people. And was the "torture" all that shocking? Hell, watch an episode of Oz and compare.

Worse happens in frat houses across America ... bad pictures with some guys playing naked Twister. It's bad, but we don't want to get too crazy

Hazing is what happens in frat houses. Hazing does not equal the Abu Ghraib abuses, because prison coercion is worse than and peer pressure coercion. On the flip side, hazing has on scattered occasions been lethal. Amrerica should not tolerate either sort of bullying.

OK, let me explain this so simply that everyone can understand.

Is it possible to have judgement in any events in the middle east without studying or researching the middle east? This was Totten's point, long ago, and I agree very much with him on that.

Now, my question is this:

Is it possible to have judgement in any sense of a military prison without first researching and studying what happens in REGULAR prisons?

I live in Huntsville, TX, right next to very large prison. If you are 'shocked' at anything you've seen, then you're still very sheltered. What was shown was nothing.

This doesn't excuse the pictures and all. But this is a prison, and people like Totten ought to research what goes on in prisons before delivering special attack on this one. Not only are prisons bad, but this is a military prison, one filled with terrorists. I certainly won't lose any sleep over them.

Alan, I'm not referring to hazing. You know stuff like this can go on even in high school locker rooms.

The point is why is sexual humiliation not justified interrogation? Sexual humiliation does not kill you. It does not harm you.

I think Rush is right on target with this one. People are overreacting wildly to this.

It just shows that these bloggers and politicians, as 'smart' and 'intellectual' they believe they are, end up, when it counts, thinking with the childish knee-jerk lower mind.

Are you reacting based on fact or on emotion?

Think about it.

If I'm not mistaken, the abuse in prisoners is almost always prisoner-on-prisoner, not guard-on-prisoner. (Then again, I have no idea what American prison guards may or may not do on a regular basis to humiliate inmates.) Of course guard-on-prisoner abuse does happen - and if I'm not mistaken, some prisoner-on-prisoner abuse did occur in Abu Ghraib and/or at least one of the other detention centers in Iraq. (Didn't I hear on the radio today that one Iraqi prisoner kill another in self defense?)

There are two kneejerk public reactions going on. First is the assumption that most or even all of what happened constitutes torture. Second is a dismissal of the hazing comparison as sheer lunacy - hazing, while not as bad, is not as far apart from the Abu Ghraib abuses as some people think.

I find it interesting that people are posting this nonsense about Rush. I was listening to the show and (as usual) everything is out of context.

First...a prior caller wanted to punish the soldiers more harshly because they appeared to enjoy their abuse. Rush's point was that it is ludicrous to punish thoughts. Hence some of his comments.

Second, by alluding to the pictures as reminiscent of a frat party missed his mentioning the Skull and Bones group - point being it was a sarcastic dig at the left's obsession with Bush's participation in that organization.

This is what bothers me about the left - the convenient cherry-picking of quotes and information. Currently making the rounds (again) is information about Bush's military record. Prominently featured is Bush's score of 25% on the PILOT aptitude test. Conveniently, the left ignores 3 things... (1) They omit the word "pilot" and imply he had an overall 25% score (2) this test is one of three or more aptitude tests - of course those scores are never mentioned (3)according to the National Guard's own published standards, 25% is the minimum qualifying point for the Pilot Aptitude test.

Sorry for the rant - but I simply can't understand this willingness to be factually incorrect.

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