April 25, 2004

Europe Gets Jihad

Europeans are having serious problems with some of their immigrants.

LUTON, England, April 24 — The call to jihad is rising in the streets of Europe, and is being answered, counterterrorism officials say.

In this former industrial town north of London, a small group of young Britons whose parents emigrated from Pakistan after World War II have turned against their families' new home. They say they would like to see Prime Minister Tony Blair dead or deposed and an Islamic flag hanging outside No. 10 Downing Street.

They swear allegiance to Osama bin Laden and his goal of toppling Western democracies to establish an Islamic superstate under Shariah law, like Afghanistan under the Taliban. They call the Sept. 11 hijackers the "Magnificent 19" and regard the Madrid train bombings as a clever way to drive a wedge into Europe.

These people are not at all like the Basque ETA or the Irish Republican Army. Those groups could be appeased or even surrendered to. The IRA does not wish to conquer London. The ETA has no desire to fly its flag over Madrid. You can't appease people who want to conquer you, especially when they don't have the power to pull it off if you'd let them.

So far to my knowledge, the only politicians in Europe who are even willing to talk about this are far-right nutjobs like France’s Jean Marie Le Pen (a Vichy nostalgist) and Austria’s Jorge Haider (a Nazi enthusiast). This can’t go on.

Either the mainstream liberals and/or conservatives need to figure out what to do about this (and they can start by pitching political correctness over the side and admitting they have a problem) or the ghosts of Europe’s past will walk again.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at April 25, 2004 10:03 PM
Comments

Michael:
or the ghosts of Europe’s past will walk again.

What do you mean ? Are you referring to the crusades ? This time the battle will be on European soil, and with modern explosives technology, the casualties will be very one-sided.

Posted by: Jono at April 25, 2004 11:21 PM

I got the impression that the "ghosts" referred to a Nazi-like mentality. If the ones who stand up to or prevent a violent Islamic uprising are Nazi enthusiasts and Vichy nostalgists, they'll be bringing a very bad set of ideals to the forefront.

Posted by: Sortelli at April 25, 2004 11:34 PM

If these guys were Afrikaaners or homegrown white Nazis, they'd be seen just for what they are. But since they've got the cover of a "protected" Third World religion and brown skin, Western people are supposed to make believe they don't see what's going on. Where's Pim Fortuyn now that we need him?

Posted by: Stephen at April 25, 2004 11:47 PM

I'd like to point out that the Le Pen, Haider and their ilk all share similar attitudes with the European and American Left (and the Islamicists, for that matter) when it comes to America, the Middle East and America's foreign policy - much as the Left is loathe to admit it. They're all pro-Saddam, pro-Hezbollah, anti-Bush, etc.

Of course, we understand the European reluctance to talk about immigration, cultural identity/cultural adoption and adaptation, etc. It's a natural and healthy reflex, considering their past.

However, the current dilemma is a real challenge to the idealistic vision of the EU - how do you maintain your dedication to multiculturalism in the face of militant Islamic supremacy, how do you tolerate others' intolerance? It demands a reassesment of the meaning of "multiculturalism" and European identities. Mainstream Europeans have invested so much in the vision of the boarderless Europe, free of the old tribalisms that they are now ideologically incapable of addressing or seeing the problem, other than brushing it off with the usual cant about sensitivity and diversity. Those that do dare to mention the problems of a particular group, namely the Muslim community, immediately bring down the full wrath of the politically correct orthodoxy.

Even sensible moderate lefties are not immune to this reflex. Conservative columnist Mark Steyn has continually written on the problems of political correctness versus Islamic ideology. For this, he is constantly called a racist. Even Johann Hari, who's writing I also usually like, recently specifically labelled Steyn a bigot. This illustrates how, until now, merely raising the subject can get you branded as a neanderthal. As long as this is the case, Europe is not going to solve this problem.

Posted by: John in Tokyo at April 26, 2004 01:17 AM

The Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn was an excellent example of a European politician willing to publically criticize the problems of immigration without the racist baggage of Le Pen or Haider. It's very unfortunate that he was assasinated in 2002. (Not by Muslims - by an animal rights militant)

Posted by: dragoon at April 26, 2004 01:25 AM

Re: Fortuyn, the animal rights/enviro radical who shot him admitted he did it out of a desire to protect the Muslim community (how paternalistic). So he was merely manifesting an extreme case of what I mentioned above: the Lefty knee-jerk prohibition on any and all criticism of the Muslim community. Fortuyn, despite the obvious differences, was constantly accused of being a far-rightist of the Haider camp. I remember seeing one interview on the BBC where the host openly called him a racist.

Posted by: John in Tokyo at April 26, 2004 01:40 AM

In Belgium, the Vlaams Bok party has been deemed "racist" because of its call for immigrants to assimilate or return home and on the basis of this has been banned.

The VB has 18 of 150 seats in the parliament, but no one will be allowed to vote for it in June (even though opinion polls had it looking to be much more popular this year) and it will not be allowed to advertise on TV.

I don't know much about this other than these bare facts.

Posted by: miklos rosza at April 26, 2004 01:54 AM

John in Tokyo: your claim did not match what I've previously read, which tended to place the blame on a clash between the two men on mink farms or something like that. A little googling pulled up http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/pim030415.html, which says: On the first day of his trial, Van der Graaf explained his motive: he saw Pim Fortuyn as a "considerable danger to the weaker groups in society", namely Muslims, asylum seekers, immigrants and animals. And that the only way to stop him was to kill him. It also said that he recieved only an 18 year sentence, which I see as morally wrong, but fits in with the Dutch legal tradition of limiting life sentences to multiple murders or long criminal records.

Posted by: dragoon at April 26, 2004 03:25 AM

MJT,

These people are not immigrants, they are colonists. Immigrants join their host societies. Colonists try to displace their host societies. The former colonial powers are becoming colonies.

Arabs and muslims that are moving to Europe are not becoming Europeans. They are setting up Arab/muslim enclaves and we are now seeing them begin to attack the host societies from these enclaves.

This is going to end terribly. Muslims have never lived peacefully with non-Muslims. There are no exceptions. Those who claim otherwise are conjuring up myths. Contemporary Europe will be no different than any other time or place throughout history. Europe will become Balknanized and every indigenous European will become a Serb. And that is if they are lucky. If they are unlucky, you might see something like partition-era India. If you wonder why the Europeans were so reluctant to intervene in Bosnia and Kosovo against the Serbs, part of the reason is because they see their own future.

There are ghosts stalking Europe, but these ghosts are not the ones most people remember. These are the ghosts the Greeks see when they look East to Constantinople. These are the ghosts of the Islamic yoke.

Posted by: HA at April 26, 2004 04:20 AM

Mr. Totten:


I completely agree with you regarding Le Pen-- he's a complete scum.

I am not sure at all that the prevailing opinion regarding Haider is correct. The evidence that he is a Nazi enthusiast is thin, and to me has a bit of a whiff of a political smear job that has stuck to some degree. For an article which supports my view, see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/468127.stm

I think there is a very strong possibility that anyone who tries to take this matter seriously is going to get branded as some sort of ideological descendent of Hitler.

This is one of the challenges of the modern world, which the 9/11 commission is making clear. The urge to be political demagogues is still too strong, and still causes important debates to be replaced by fearmongering and demonization.

Gerry

Posted by: Gerry at April 26, 2004 04:22 AM

Sorry about forgetting to make the last a link

Posted by: Gerry at April 26, 2004 04:22 AM

JohnInTokyo:

"Conservative columnist Mark Steyn has continually written on the problems of political correctness versus Islamic ideology. For this, he is constantly called a racist. Even Johann Hari, who's writing I also usually like, recently specifically labelled Steyn a bigot."

Exactly my point. I used the example of Haider, who's politics I do not like. I just find the evidence that he is a Nazi to be woefully thin.

Posted by: Gerry at April 26, 2004 04:25 AM

" mainstream liberals and/or conservatives" i.e. American liberals

These don't exist in Europe of any significance. You have two flavors of socialism...right fascism or left socialism.

Nothing has changed since the 1930s...except an influx of anti-capitalist, anti-democratic, Jew-hating fascists (of the Islamic type). Yay Europe!

Posted by: Ex at April 26, 2004 04:39 AM

What type of person are you looking for Totten?

What would they call a modern Churchill in Europe?

Answer: A Fascist.

See, Churchill = Le Pen. Bush = Hitler. Liberalism = fascism.

Yet what does 20% of the poplulation want? J.S. Mill? Nope, fascism the read deal.

Its a friggen land of neo-nazis and Chomsky-bots over there.

Posted by: Ex at April 26, 2004 04:44 AM

What's an "Islamic flag" look like, anyway?

I guess it won't be 'Box cars to the East' this time, though.

It is going to get mighty ugly in Western Europe before it gets better.

Posted by: eric at April 26, 2004 06:14 AM

You bloody Leftists make me sick. Here is YET ANOTHER horrible mess you're creating in the name of your godforsaken secular religion. This is going to get violent and bloody, and you idiots will be to blame. Do you think Madrid was an aberration? You assholes.

You've busily set about destroying our institutions and traditions. Did you think nothing would fill the vacuum you've created???

And when it does become obvious, you'll not be a help but a friggin BURDEN, as USUAL; You'll not offer solutions, but just more tired and mindless Lefty platitudes against "racism" and "colonialism" and "capitalism", blah blah blah. YOu make me want to vomit all of you.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 06:59 AM

eric,
"What's an "Islamic flag" look like, anyway?"

Probably one with a crescent and a star featured prominently. The kind of symbol you can see featured over a lot of mosques, particularly in places like Finsbury Park.

HA
"These people are not immigrants, they are colonists. Immigrants join their host societies. Colonists try to displace their host societies. The former colonial powers are becoming colonies."

There have been two main waves of Muslim immigration in Britain. The first was after World War II, from the Muslim population of India. Despite a fairly iffy start, they have pretty much settled in and made lives for themselves here.

The second wave, which began largely in the late 1980s is the source of much of the problems that are outlined in the NY Times article. The descendents of the first wave of immigrants are joining this group. The second wave immigrants are the leaders in this situation, the muslims who were born here seem to be following their lead.

Posted by: sam at April 26, 2004 07:05 AM

HA wrote:

"Muslims have never lived peacefully with non-Muslims. There are no exceptions."

Reminds me of my favorite hymn:

Onward Christian Soliders;
Onward Buddahists Priests;
Onward Fruits of Islam;
Fight 'till you're deceased.

Fight your little battles,
join in thickest fray,
For the Greater Glory of Discordia!

PBFFFTTT!

Hail Eris and fight with the Muslim!
Hail Eris and fight with the Jew!
Hail Eris and invade a country!
Hail Eris and Vote Cthulhu!

'Tosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at April 26, 2004 07:06 AM

> You bloody Leftists make me sick. Here is YET ANOTHER horrible mess you're creating in the name of your godforsaken secular religion.

Well, that was constructive. I hope that little tirade makes you feel better, because it adds very little to the discussion.

If you honestly feel nothing but contempt and hatred for millions of people, then I feel sorry for you. No one is smart enough to be totally wrong.

Posted by: Matt at April 26, 2004 07:10 AM

Judge Baltazar Garzon of Spain has had a number of alleged Al Qaeda members arrested in Spain long before the Madrid bombings.

Posted by: Randy Paul at April 26, 2004 07:25 AM

Matt,

discussion with Leftists is not useful. Turning a Leftist from his religion is more akin to deprogramming a cult member. Far more useful to this world is that you be ridiculed at every turn and marginalized completely from the public discussion.

Done with rant. And yes, it felt pretty good.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 07:34 AM

"If you honestly feel nothing but contempt and hatred for millions of people, then I feel sorry for you. No one is smart enough to be totally wrong."

Well said. Reminds me of this article on Eric Harris:

http://politics.slate.msn.com/id/2099203

This sort of psychopathology (a visceral, unreasoned contempt for others) seems to be popping up all over, independent of political/relgious affiliation or lack thereof. It's surprisingly prevalent among internet forums of about any stripe.

This is certainly nothing new in human nature, what may be new and something we might consider is our reluctance to police it within our own groups and our readiness to generalize it in our perception of other groups.

Perhaps those of good faith could join together across divides in common cause against such unreasoned contempt, starting by examining any we might harbor ourselves...

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 07:54 AM

Ged,

I spit on your platitudes. The no longer impress.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 07:58 AM

David,

I seek not to impress you, but to defeat you and those few who share your curse.

Harris was lost to us, there are millions of Klebolds who are not. Yet.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

- Burke

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 08:07 AM

I seek not to impress you, but to defeat you and those few who share your curse.

Then you and I speak the same language after all, because your utter defeat is my only desire as well.

Notice, however, I don't disguise myself with fraudulent platitudes and touchy feely slogans; platitudes which I feel compelled to expose as frauduelent and destructive, sweet and sugary though they may sound.

And as long as you continue to identify those such as myself as "the enemy," rather than those who are actually KILLING US, then I know that I'm right and that you're full of crap, you're universalist touchy feely slogans notwithstanding.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 08:15 AM

David,

Thank you for your criticism. I see I need to be more clear. I'm placing those who are killing us in the same category as you and Eric Harris. You share their undiscerning, blanket contempt for others.

I'm also suggesting a common link between we who may agree with some of your politics, but who sit idly by and do not confront your contempt, and those Muslims who do the same, and those Leftists who do likewise.

Developing the guts to police our own psychopaths might better position us strategically to defend ourselves from the very real threats posed by those psychopaths who belong to other groups. And vice versa.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 08:27 AM

Ged,

I see that you simply can't help yourself.
Here you have offered me up a perfect softball of an example.

My contempt for you, which is real I can assure you, is no different than Columbine mass murder it seems. You know, the ability of people on the Left (such as yourself) to capture nuance and subtle distinctions never ceases to amaze me. "Contempt" for you is equal to killing, and thus your "thoughfulness" on the subject, and your "solutions". Is it any wonder you're held in such contempt by non "enlightened" America? Is it any wonder that you are worthy of little more than ridiule and marginalization? You and yours ARE GETTING PEOPLE KILLED.

Check this out you friggin dhimmi:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/image0016.jpg

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 08:43 AM

David, its a Man baby!

On a more serious note, here are the flags of note, when Islam is concerned.

http://flagspot.net/images/i/isl-2f.gif

Posted by: FH at April 26, 2004 08:52 AM

Nice to see a magician of Sparrowhawk's reputation, joining our friendly group. Welcome, Ged!

Folks, what Ged mentions seems similar to what I've mentioned. The issue is Dogma. If you hold firm beleifs that remain unchangable, no matter what, then you are just like those who laughed at the idea of a sphereical earth or believe all Americans to be Evil Capitalists Pigs and Children of The Great Satan (ECPCTGS).

For those that wish to join the ranks of intolerance, along with the Nazis, Wahabis and KKK, continue to spout that everyone who doesn't agree with you is evil, anti-american, part of a cult

I think I read a book once about some people like that. It seems that this guy started telling people that their system of belief and politics needed to change, that they had completely flummoxed the job of running the country, had misinterperted the laws and were totally corrupt. The political and religious leaders decided he was a danger to their Dogma and just 3 years into his carear, they killed him. Hell, they spent a good part of the next century killing anyone who agreed with him.

Strange book... but some people like it.

Singing to Idiots,

Tosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at April 26, 2004 08:57 AM

So the left will finally have to choose between the logical implications of multiculturalism and PCness and the destruction of Western Culture in Europe. Here in the States, it seems to me the populace would still choose to discard the former in the name of the latter. In Europe? Not so clear to me.

There is no bigger fan of legal immigration than me. But ten years from now we are going to have to make some choices here as well. As the Baby Boomers retire we are going to have a major shortfall in workers here in the US. How will we deal with that? Will we further limit immigration from Muslim nations, or Muslims generally? I have seen enough to say we should. Bring on the Latin Americans and Hindu-Indians and Chinese and Japanese and those Europeans fleeing the Jihad coming to Western Europe.

Until the Islamic world can demonstrate they can and will live in pluralistic societies without attempting to dominate them and destroy freedom of religion (among other things), the nations of the West have no obligation to committ suicide by enabling their presence.

Posted by: spc67 at April 26, 2004 08:57 AM

The political and religious leaders decided he was a danger to their Dogma and just 3 years into his carear, they killed him. Hell, they spent a good part of the next century killing anyone who agreed with him.

Pim Fortuyn, killed by "compassionate" Leftists.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 09:05 AM

spc67,

I agree. Ban muslims, make up the shortfall with Buddhists and Hmong.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 09:07 AM

Pim Fortuyn, killed by "compassionate" Leftists.

The words of the foolish and the words of the wise, are not far apart in Discordian eyes.

Your turn,

Ratatosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at April 26, 2004 09:15 AM

Tosk,

thanks. A little nonsense now and then is relished by even the wisest men.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 09:22 AM

Roger,

As it says in "The Book of Predictions", Chapter 19:

10. The Earth quakes and the heavens rattle; the beasts of nature flock together and the nations of men flock apart; volcanoes usher up heat while elsewhere water becomes ice and melts; and the on other days it just rains.
11. Indeed do many things come to pass.

Tosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at April 26, 2004 09:36 AM

Darn, typing too quickly, please switch roger and David in the Salutation of the previous post... unless David likes to be called roger, then its ok.

'tosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at April 26, 2004 09:37 AM

David, Pim Fortuyn was murdered by one man. There has been to my knowledge no proof there was any conspiracy. Volkert van der G. was perfectly able to do it by himself, too. If you have this proof of a 'leftist' conspiracy, you might want to share it with us.

Re: the original message by Micheal Totten

"So far to my knowledge, the only politicians in Europe who are even willing to talk about this are far-right nutjobs like France’s Jean Marie Le Pen (a Vichy nostalgist) and Austria’s Jorge Haider (a Nazi enthusiast). This can’t go on."

This is not true in regards to the Netherlands. In the Netherlands I would say the majority of the parties talks about this openly. Members of the parliament Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (of the VVD classical liberal party) and also the Dutch intelligence services have already quite some time be making statements about muslims being recruited for Jihad, and extremist muslims. The Dutch government has also spoken against it. I bet that Bolkestein, member of the European Commision from the Netherlands and one of the first politicians talking about immigration problems has also treated the subject. There is not any party who seems to be denying there's a fundamentalist problem under muslims here. Politicians here often mention wanting to close certain extremist mosques. Just now there's a big row over a fundamentalist book recommending muslims to kill gays by throwing them from roofs "top-down" used in a mosque. I haven't checked upon the latest news but I think the cabinet wants to outlaw the book. You can't say the dutch government does enough to prevent islamic terrorism, but they do try.

I could be misinterpreting what you said, but if I did not, it is wrong to say islamic terrorism is a non-issue under Dutch politicians.

I can't say anything about other European countries, only that I doubt Le Pen and Haider are the only ones confronting this issue there.

Posted by: Frank Quist at April 26, 2004 09:39 AM

Gerry: The evidence that he is a Nazi enthusiast is thin, and to me has a bit of a whiff of a political smear job

Type "stormfront" and "haider" into Google and click "I'm feeling lucky." If Haider's not a fascist, the fascists nevertheless think he's great. You'll see what I mean. I am not linking to the Web site in question.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 26, 2004 09:41 AM

David to Ged: My contempt for you, which is real I can assure you, is no different than Columbine mass murder it seems. You know, the ability of people on the Left (such as yourself) to capture nuance and subtle distinctions never ceases to amaze me.

Ged is a conservative, not one of those leftists you hate so much.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 26, 2004 09:46 AM

Miklos Rosza,

"In Belgium, the Vlaams Bok party has been deemed "racist" because of its call for immigrants to assimilate or return home and on the basis of this has been banned."

I think they are racists. It's not easy to nail them on that, but I think they are within their party racists but like many other race-based parties try to cloak that for outsiders.

One example is their 'Eigen volk eerst' ('own people's first') strategy (and one of their slogans, reminiscent of nazis), which seems to include, but I do not know for sure, to make people of a non-Belgian origin some sort of lower class. Like if you want a job, and there's an evenly qualified Belgian for that, the job will go to the latter one. Some sort of reverse affirmative action, but institutionalised over the whole of Flanders. Don't nail me on that though. They also feature speeches (by dutch extremist Michiel Smit) decrying the fact that a major is not (gasp) dutch but turkish ("We're not living in ISTANBUL here!"), not even referring to how long he has been there or if he's a good major or not.

The growth of the VB is helped however that most mainstreams parties have ignored (or are ignoring) the immigrant issue for far too long. Which helps Micheal's point.

Posted by: Frank Quist at April 26, 2004 09:49 AM


Type "stormfront" and "haider" into Google and click "I'm feeling lucky." If Haider's not a fascist, the fascists nevertheless think he's great. You'll see what I mean. I am not linking to the Web site in question.

And if Google has a link to it, it must be true!!!

I also found some pretty strong indications that John Kerry is actually not from Boston, but was actually born in the small Mass. town of Dunwich, as John F. Whateley. This is very important, since his apparent grandfather was killed trying to steal antiquities from Miskatonik University (about 23 miles away).

He was an outcast in Dunwich, and later moved and changed his last name. Now I wonder what secrets he's hiding?

'Tosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at April 26, 2004 09:51 AM

The growth of the VB is helped however that most mainstreams parties have ignored (or are ignoring) the immigrant issue for far too long.

Exactly.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 09:56 AM

Ged is a conservative, not one of those leftists you hate so much.

ROFL!

Nope, Michael, you must be wrong. You see he didn't completely agree with David's every thought... he must be a Leftist!!! One can't have thoughts that don't agree with the Holy Order of Republican Politics and still be conservative! Next thing you know, someone will spout the heresy that some Leftists think we should be kicking Osama's butt, and some Conservatives think we should get the hell out of Iraq!!!!

Time flows like a river. That is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly, including the commentary on this blog. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the ocean. (co-opted from the Apocrypha Discordia, Second Edition)

Posted by: Ratatosk at April 26, 2004 09:57 AM

Little bit OT, but relevant: an op-ed by Phil Lucas about Falluja brutality. His message is clear:

“Those are the people out to kill you.”

read the whole thing>

via http://www.solomonia.com/blog/

Posted by: marek at April 26, 2004 10:04 AM

Small self-correction: "own peoples first" instead of "own people's first".

I also should add the situation in NL was severely helped by the rise of Pim Fortuyn and how he managed to get the politically correct parties to be pressed into a corner which seems to have awoken most of them.

Posted by: Frank Quist at April 26, 2004 10:06 AM

I apologize to those who might be concerned that I'm merely feeding the troll here. I guess my point is that silence in this situation is not enough, that blind hate must be confronted, perhaps more for its blindness than its hatred.

David's blindness is evident in his inability to distinguish between my position and those who choose to be apologists for terror.

My point, getting back to the original article, is that the blind such as Klebold will follow those blinded by hatred, if not offered a more compelling vision.

As Sam said:

"The second wave immigrants are the leaders in this situation, the muslims who were born here seem to be following their lead."

Yes, we must protect ourselves against the psychopaths among those leaders, as Israel has done. We must also strengthen those offering a better lead, such as Bush and Blair.

Where we have been lax, and the Left and and Muslims even more so, is in policing our own psychopaths.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 10:23 AM

Ged,

slogan monger, there's nothing blind about what you refer to as my "hate". Even your use of that term identifies you as a sloganmonger. And your casual slinging around of terms like "pyschopath" expose your highminded and enlightened tone for the fraud it is. So stop being such a phony ok? If you're not a Leftist, you've not given me any reason to think otherwise. In fact, I suspect that you've attained such a level of highmindedness that you've risen clear above the realm of mere mortal labels.

But you've stated no "position", nor solution, except a set of platitudes indistinguishable from those offered by, well, the Left.

Columbine indeed. Too much Michael Moore for you.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 10:35 AM

Frank Quist: I could be misinterpreting what you said, but if I did not, it is wrong to say islamic terrorism is a non-issue under Dutch politicians.

I had momentarily forgotten about Pim Fortuyn. I shouldn't have. I was in Amsterdam the day after he was shot.

The Netherlands reminded me a great deal of the Pacific Northwest. And by that I also mean it reminded me a lot of America. Not surprising if they're a little more sensible there.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 26, 2004 10:44 AM

As for me being Conservative...

I think Mr. Totten puts me in that box because I once had the temerity to defend Cal Thomas from a critique that lacked his (Totten's) usual insight. We all have blind spots - Cal himself more than most.

I'm in the tradition that spans from Socrates to Franklin to Blair, with enough room to contain Berlin, LeGuin, and Burke; Reagan, FDR, and Havel; Cato, Wojtyla, and Emerson.

That tradition has earned the name "liberal." It's survived far worse threats than the half-baked cynical statism that currently seeks to approriate its name or the pathetically psychopathic barbarism that seeks to erase it.

Eternal vigilance is, however, its price. What little I have to offer, I gladly pay.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 10:53 AM

David to Ged: If you're not a Leftist, you've not given me any reason to think otherwise.

Why not? Because he doesn't hate half the country like you do?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 26, 2004 10:55 AM

David,

If you promise to stay there, I have no problem continuing to help you dig your own grave.

I stated a very clear position and solution. My strategy offers three prongs instead of the usual two:

1. Action against the psychopaths that poison other groups, such as that taken by Israel against the leaders of Hamas.

2. Articulation (w/ follow up) of a viable positive alternative, such as we are doing in Iraq.

3. Confronting (this involves admitting the existence of) our own psychopaths, and shutting them up. In prison, if necessary.

Or is this too "high-minded" for you? Michael Moore? Whatever.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 11:09 AM

Why not? Because he doesn't hate half the country like you do?

"Hate"?

Michael, you're so much smarter than that (aren't you?). No, he doesn't "hate" them, he just thinks they're psychopaths and potential mass murderers.

But speaking of "hate", isn't it interesting that nobody dares utter the word "anger," but always "hate". Hate this, hate that, blah blah.

Why is that?

Is it because accusing someone of anger (instead of hate) might accord their views with some degree of legitimacy in a way that "hate" doesn't?

Was Fortuyn a "hater"? Or was his anger justified?

In other words, your use of that word says more about you than it does about me, and it's water off my back I can assure you.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 11:11 AM

"Those groups could be appeased or even surrendered to".

What?

Posted by: e.r. at April 26, 2004 11:16 AM

e.r.
I think he means that it was possible to come to some kind of deal with them that did not involve the complete destruction of your nation or way of life.

Posted by: sam at April 26, 2004 11:21 AM

E.R.,

The Basques want their own state. Spain could give it to them and the conflict would end. Then Spain and the Basque country could live side by side in peace. The reason is because the Basque ETA has no desire to rule Madrid. (I'm not saying Spain should do this, only that Spain could do this.)

Europe cannot surrender to fascist Muslims. It is neither desirable nor is it possible.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 26, 2004 11:21 AM

Ged,

Thank you for your clarity. But whom do you expect will do the "confronting" you suggest in points 1 and 2 ? To my knowledge, only the "haters" are willing to go beyond confronting the enemy with mere bromides. And they do so at their own peril (see Fortuyn, Aznar).

Did you not know that if you were to imprison or silence your "psychopaths" and "haters", there'd be nobody left to do the "confronting" of which you speak?

Certainly, in my view, it's been the "psychopaths" and "haters" of which you warn about that are the only ones apparently willing to say anything above a whisper that might smack of tangible action.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 11:26 AM

"If Haider's not a fascist, the fascists nevertheless think he's great"

I think it is very likely that they do because he has been tarred as a Nazi by the European press.

I am more concerned with what a particular guy believes rather than who supports him. I think it is safe to say that a rather large portion of the anarchists who trashed Seattle a few years ago are going to be voting for Kerry in November. I know a lot of them just loved Howard Dean. Should the same standard apply?

Posted by: Gerry at April 26, 2004 11:28 AM

David,

This is what hate looks like:

"You bloody Leftists make me sick. Here is YET ANOTHER horrible mess you're creating in the name of your godforsaken secular religion. This is going to get violent and bloody, and you idiots will be to blame. Do you think Madrid was an aberration? You assholes."

See Democratic Underground, Counterpunch, heck, even Calpundit for other examples. MEMRI can provide you with other illustrations from the Arab world you also claim to detest but seem determined to imitate.

Such is the company you keep.

As I think you are trying to say, "hate", like "liberal", is often misused for political purposes that undermine it's true meaning. All the more reason to use it properly when the shoe actually fits.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 11:34 AM

This is Europe's ticking time bomb. Bravo to Michael for having the courage to expose it on his blog. Many of his comrades are too PC to do the same.
Very soon we will learn if the indigenous peoples still living in Europe have the courage to survive against a foreign threat in their midst.

Posted by: Helen at April 26, 2004 11:37 AM

David,

"Certainly, in my view, it's been the "psychopaths" and "haters" of which you warn about that are the only ones apparently willing to say anything above a whisper that might smack of tangible action."

I'm not proud of my own silence, which may be why I'm taking the trouble to confront you.

You are, however, mistaken about millions of your fellow Americans, including our President. It is not contempt that motivates his clear action. It is its exact opposite.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 11:41 AM

Ged,

yawn. Whatever.

I don't begrudge the jerks at DU their anger or passion, I begrudge them the TARGET or their anger/passion. Which makes them, in my book, assholes.

If you can't appreciate that obvious difference, then it's no wonder us "haters" feel like we're shouting into the wind.

Anyway, I'm done playing rhetorical pointscoring with you.

/psychopath signing out

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 11:46 AM

Mr. Totten:

I should have included a bit more in my post.

I am not a big follower of Austrian politics.

And I also make it a point to avoid places like Stormfront as much as I possibly can. There's simply something very wrong, very evil, with those people.

My simple point is that I have not seen very much evidence at all that Haider is as he is accused. Maybe he is a fascist. I'd be more than open to believing it, if someone would give good evidence about it. I've been more than convinced with Le Pen, for example.

Gerry

Posted by: Gerry at April 26, 2004 11:56 AM

Gerry,
When Haider first appeared on the scene, the accusations of fascism came mainly from the other parties. But now these parties are trying to cut deals with Haider's party, at least on a regional level to form coalitions. Most of the accusations of fascism came from other parties, which were then picked up by the press. The fact that they are starting to try and make deals with Haider could mean that they've decided that Haider isn't a fascist and is safe to deal with.

Posted by: sam at April 26, 2004 12:10 PM

"These people are not immigrants, they are colonists."

HA hits the nail on the head. That notion applies to many parts of the world.

"Vlaams Blok" seems to be a right-wing extremist party, in line with Haider and Le Pen.

Posted by: Mike at April 26, 2004 12:17 PM

I'll confess that I haven't been following Dutch politics as closely since I moved back to the States, but the last time I paid close attention Ayaan Hirsi Ali seemed like the best hope now that Fortuyn is gone.

Pym Fortuyn was shot by one man, but he was viciously demonized beforehand. Had the "mainstream" not reduced him to a caricatured bogeyman, the (admittedly unstable) v.d. Graaf might not have felt so justified in murdering him.

Fortuyn, unlike Le Pen, Haider and their ilk was progressive in nearly all respects. Unlike most modern progressive continentals, he recognized the need to defend that culture against what amounts to an invasion.

That perspective is needed today more than ever, but I haven't seen any evidence that it has spread very far. The fact that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is in the public eye is a hopeful sign, but I wish she were more prominent across here contintent and that she represented a point-of-view common enough to at least have a name or recognizable movement.

I seems that as it stands, the only thing that keeps her from being lumped in with Le Pen and his noxious ilk is the fact that she's a somalian (ex-)Muslim.

-- Erik

Posted by: Erik at April 26, 2004 12:20 PM

"If you can't appreciate that obvious difference, then it's no wonder us "haters" feel like we're shouting into the wind."

Now who's touchy-feely?

It's not just a feeling, you are shouting into the wind. The wind reserves the right to blow back.

/psychopath signing out

Good. Stay there.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 12:34 PM

Erik:

"Fortuyn, unlike Le Pen, Haider and their ilk was progressive in nearly all respects."

You may want to read this article on the intellectual roots of fascism. In particular,

Fascism was a movement with its roots primarily in the left. Its leaders and initiators were secular-minded, highly progressive intellectuals, hard-headed haters of existing society and especially of its most bourgeois aspects.

And before anyone jumps on me, I am not saying that progressives are fascists. What I am saying is that fascism is a particular extension of progressivism, just as is anarchism or communism. They are competing forms of radical leftism. Another who makes a similar case is Erik Von-Kuenneldt Leddihin in "Leftism Revisited".

Posted by: Gerry at April 26, 2004 12:45 PM

The real near- to mid-term danger is that Europe, in a drastic effort to head off the rising threat of Muslim extremism while preserving their current social and political structures, will follow Saudi Arabia's lead and redirect the frustrations and anger of it's Islamo-fascit community towards the U.S.

At a subtler level, Europe has been doing this for decades, playing the Israel card to curry favor with Arab regimes and appease their Muslim communities. But as the threat to Europe itself increases, will they become even more anti-American in a desperate effort to buy time?

Posted by: Hacksaw at April 26, 2004 01:05 PM

This is at one level a problem of democracies dealing with political and argumentative dialogue.
How to characterize those engaged
in the debate ?
Calling conservatives neo-conservatives or extreme right wingers marginalizes and cheapens the political arena leading to the breakdown of the discourse, sterotyping and the possibility of meritful consideration of the opponent's proposals for change. It seems to be a liberal trait.

Posted by: jedrury at April 26, 2004 01:08 PM

jedrury,

Do you think that calling liberals Leftists or extreme left-wingers marginalizes and cheapens the political arena leading to the breakdown of the discourse, sterotyping and the possibility of meritful consideration of the opponent's proposals for change, and that it seems to be a conservative trait?

Posted by: Oberon at April 26, 2004 02:20 PM

The only way to prevent these fanatical Islamists to conquer Britania is for the British government and democracy-loving citizens to expel these troublemakers back to their lands of origin. As for the British-born Islamists, they shouldn't have any problem integrating in a state that is already predominantly Islamic such as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Before the gangrene in your foot spreads to the rest of your body, have your foot amputated right away! Eventually, you have a choice: either be killed by the conquering enemies, or isolate the enemies and decimate them. It is a cultural and religious war.

Posted by: Rafael Robert Delfin at April 26, 2004 02:28 PM

Rafael,

you're a hater and a psychopath. Just ask Ged (and Michael).

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 02:37 PM

Rants like David's by paleo-conservatives bore me. He has a valid argument that there are strains of appeasement in liberal and leftist thinking. Because Islamic fascists are not white and rich and American, they are not held responsible for their actions. The hidden and unspoken assumption being "yes, whites should be held to a very high standard"- but we really can't expect black African leaders/Arafat/Iraqi terrorists to act in a civilized manner because they are not civilized. Bush refers to this as the "soft bigotry of low expectations". Leftists see those of "colour" as being oppressed and deserving of their revenge.

Paeleo-conservatives like Buchanan and David are a valid but declining segment of the population. They will not be effective like conservative optimists like Reagan and Bush were/are because in the politcal process rants like Davids will not persuade anyone to change their minds, only harden their position. Optimistic rhetoric is more focused on strongly defending our values rather than on bashing our enemies. It is more "for" something than against it.

David's rants also are very dangerous because by making an enemy to be destroyed of those who debate on blogs with different views, he ignores the real enemy, those who want to kill us by terrorism. If you call a grope rape, or call Bush Hitler, you lessen the evil of those who are really evil, not just your philosophical opponents.

There are valid and continuing debates as to how to defend ourselves against islamic terrorism....leftists tend to want to identify with the oppressed and excuse them so they feel listened to and maybe appeased a bit, to feel we understand their restentments. Liberals look to a multilateral world where the weak (ie Europe) feel they have a say in the process so their antiAmericanism doesn't blind them to the danger facing their countries. Conservatives like Bush are focusing on bin Laden's statement that people prefer a strong horse to a weak horse. As a wise European from Old Europe once wrote, it is better to be feared than loved, that a ruler must avoid contempt. David is only gaining contempt from all of us by his monomania on "hate". I'm more interested in seeing how the debate by liberals like Michael Totten turn from past appeasement by Carter and Clinton to a wary acceptance that maybe Bush has some good ideas on protecting us from terrorism. Liberals like MT strengthen conservative debate by providing criticism of what it is doing badly, and support for what it is doing well.

I am not terribly interested in a flame war with the likes of David, as I said it bores me.


PMB

Posted by: PMB at April 26, 2004 03:47 PM

PMB,

if you're not interested in a flame war, then don't provoke one.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 04:07 PM

David, don't provoke me by telling me not to be provoking.

Posted by: PMB at April 26, 2004 04:39 PM

You're the one who started flaming today, David. Lots of us noticed.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 26, 2004 04:42 PM

David -

That's right, David. I'm a hater. I hate fascist ideologies and political correctness.

A psychopath is a person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse. This can't be me because I believe in freedom, progress, order, mercy, and justice - things that your fanatic Islamist friends seem to hate.

Posted by: Rafael Robert Delfin at April 26, 2004 04:46 PM

Europe will sooner or later need to deal with both the Muslims and the Jews. Both are foreign elements that destroy our continent's traditions, culture and economy.

It's not about racism. Most of us can easily live with some brown skin around us, it's a matter of loyalty. Muslims aren't loyal to us, but to their own group, just like the Jews are.

With some luck, the Muslims will go after the Jews and the problem will eliminate itself.

JvR

Posted by: Johannes Rinderknecht at April 26, 2004 05:28 PM

Oberon,

"Do you think that calling liberals Leftists or extreme left-wingers marginalizes and cheapens the political arena leading to the breakdown of the discourse, sterotyping and the possibility of meritful consideration of the opponent's proposals for change, and that it seems to be a conservative trait?"

I think that last clause is where the confusion lies. I would say it seems to be a human trait, though not inevitable if we are made aware of it. Some conservatives, following the disastrous 1992 convention, seem to have caught on, while liberals, still wallowing in Deanomania, might do well to consider Clinton's Sister Souljah strategy.

Just as those (majority of) Iraqis who do long for democracy defeat their own cause by failing to resist the Al-Sadrs in their midst, instead obsessing on the shortcomings of the CPA (very real but beside the larger point), so do liberals with Michael Moore and conservatives with those like David if we do not resist their blind contempt.

Yes, it is boring to police our own, but there is a parallel with James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows" theory that was implemented so effectively by Giuliani. See:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/crime/windows.htm

As for "for" vs. "against", one can still be for the midnight basketball league (or, better, the 8 a.m. job) while still being against the crack house. Indeed, it's seems both are necessary.

PMB - great points all around, but the grunt work still needs done. That David has turned out to be more Klebold than Harris is even more reason to do it...

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 05:42 PM

"Europe will sooner or later need to deal with both the Muslims and the Jews. Both are foreign elements that destroy our continent's traditions, culture and economy...With some luck, the Muslims will go after the Jews and the problem will eliminate itself."

Congratulations. I was wondering when I would come across the most reprehensible posting of the day on any of the blogs I visit. I no longer need to wonder.

Posted by: Gerry at April 26, 2004 05:48 PM

JvR,

"Most of us can easily live with some brown skin around us, it's a matter of loyalty. Muslims aren't loyal to us, but to their own group, just like the Jews are."

That's funny, many of our most loyal citizens are Jews. Of course, they aren't loyal to "us", why would you expect them to be - are you loyal to "them"? They, and I, are both loyal to our common country.

You're welcome to join us, if you like.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 05:53 PM

JvR,

I see some progress - it's not only Jews that cause problems in Europe. Congratulations!

Posted by: marek at April 26, 2004 05:56 PM

Wow, David. As a person who considers himself conservative and a hater of appeasement, I beg you to shut your pie hole.

First rule of holes and all that. Geezus.

Posted by: Sortelli at April 26, 2004 05:57 PM

I think one of Europe's ghosts just walked by.

Posted by: David [.net] at April 26, 2004 06:00 PM

Oberon: I accept your response to my point; it is a good rebuttal. Let me clarify that it is the main media in describing the right which engages in this characterization. You do not read the NY Times describing Tom Dasche as the left wing minority leader of the Senate or Ted Kennedy as the liberal Senator from Massachusetts. But Tom DeLay is repeatedly painted as the right wing Majority Leader of the House from Texas. Paul Wolfewitz is the neo conservative Deputy. I
Secretary of the Defense. Bernie Goldberg has made this argument in his latest book. It is this corrusive effect on the political dialogue about which my earlier point applies.

Posted by: jedrury at April 26, 2004 06:32 PM

Ratatosk,

Reminds me of my favorite hymn

Since you put it that way, I guess everything will work out fine. No need to be concerned.

Posted by: HA at April 26, 2004 06:38 PM

Ged,

If you can tear yourself away from bashing David for a moment, perhaps you could offer an opinion about what the future holds for Europe? Is Europe being colonized or not?

If Americans were establishing enclaves in Mecca, calling for the deaths of the Saudi royal family, and hanging American flags over the kabba, would you call them immigrants or colonists?

Posted by: HA at April 26, 2004 06:47 PM

"If you can tear yourself away from bashing David for a moment,"

Just practicing the Powell Doctrine - overwhelming force and all that...

;-)

"Is Europe being colonized or not?"

The part of Europe represented by our enlightened friend JvR certainly is, and he's not helping. Our experience shows that any immigrant community is made up human beings of different motivations.

I say throw the psychopaths in the clink for sedition and welcome those who are willing to contribute, and, yes, assimilate. Not Borg-style, but contributing their own flavor to the mix.

This requires both openness to and expectation of these contributions on the part of those already in country, as well as a clear appreciation of the tradition to which we are inviting them.

The vast majority are not fated to follow the psychopaths, they wait to see which way the wind is blowing. We best get our lungs in gear not only to shout down those who denigrate our tradition but also to shout out what it clearly offers.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 07:20 PM

Johannes Rinderknecht: Europe will sooner or later need to deal with both the Muslims and the Jews. Both are foreign elements that destroy our continent's traditions, culture and economy.

Fuck you.

My grandfather received two purple hearts fighting scum like you in the hell of World War II.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 26, 2004 08:08 PM

You're the one who started flaming today, David. Lots of us noticed.

Michael,

I won't hold my breath waiting for you to be impartial about this, you never are. But if you'll re-read the thread, you'll notice that if I make a broad brush statement about "Leftists", and in return receive a direct personal attack (psychopath), you can't in good conscience say I started the flame war. I've already told you, I NEVER make a personal attack unless I'm responding to somebody else's.

Am I complaining? No, I'm not. But I don't accept your accusation.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 08:41 PM

"I make a broad brush statement about "Leftists""

No, it was "YOU Leftists." That's the blindness. You also called us idiots and assholes. That's the hatred.

On the other hand, the obvious concern you show for the esteem of others makes it doubtful that you are, actually, a pyschopath. So quit acting like one.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 26, 2004 08:52 PM

Ged,

yes, YOU LEFTISTS is not a personal attack. That's why they call it "PERSONAL";
especially if YOU hadn't even posted yet.

This is ridiculous and I'm finished with this thread.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 09:23 PM

Two Purple Hearts? Gee!
What a coincidence, mine earned an Iron Cross in that same war. Talk about small world!

So they were both loyal to their countries, and thus we're both proud of them. Never mind their being in opposite camps, fighting each other.

Consequently, DIS-loyalty to your country isn't much to brag about, eh? And that was what I was talking about. Disloyal Muslims and even more disloyal Jews.

Muslims have shown their hatred and disgust for the Gentile societies that have received and fed them (most Muslims here are on welfare). Jews are well established and don't get welfare in ordinary ways, but they live off our backs anyway. You know, state funded jobs like 'liasoner for jewish religious matters' etc, where nobody notices if you don't show up in office for a day or two.

Even though Jews have been among us for thousands of years, they still hate and despise us. And they don't consider themselves to be part of our nations, except when there's benefits to reap.

For instance, how many Jews are serving in Iraq right now? How many served in Vietnam?
(Hint: very very few)

My view is that Muslims and Jews have no place in Europe whatsoever. Culturally, religiously, and otherwise they're so far from us that there's no point in trying to assimilate them here. There are plenty of Muslim countries and there's Israel for the Jews. What's wrong in sending them home?

I don't want Europe to become a continent where the inhabitants resemble a Ricky Lake audience, mostly non-white, low class, incredibly free from taste and style, but rich in political correctness. And parasites who take advantage of their stupidity.

Oh yes, I almost forgot.
Fuck you too Michael Totten.

JvR

Posted by: Johannes Rinderknecht at April 26, 2004 09:40 PM

Wow JvR, you give new meaning to the term "nazi".

Are all you blowhard Lefties watching this? I hope you'll never use that term, "nazi", so casually again.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 09:51 PM

Johannes,

You disgrace your country and our civilization.

Your IP Address has been blocked. You will not post here again. If you change computers I will block that IP Address, too.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 26, 2004 10:22 PM

This is ridiculous and I'm finished with this thread.

David, again, you are coming across as nothing but belligerent, irrational and angry. From your very first post on this thread I was rolling my eyes at you and you've done nothing but expand on your frothing idiocy since then. And I'm not a lefty. Seriously, if you didn't express yourself like such a mewling and angry child, I MIGHT agree with you on some level. Instead, I'm embarassed for you.

But if you'll re-read the thread, you'll notice that if I make a broad brush statement about "Leftists", and in return receive a direct personal attack (psychopath), you can't in good conscience say I started the flame war.

Broad brush statements about how some people are awful and bad start flame wars. In fact, you're the only one ranting and flaming to begin with.

Ged's been nothing but reasonable. Don't use JvR as an example of how dumb lefties are, set your differences with the lefties aside and mutually oppose people like Mr. Johannes.

Posted by: Sortelli at April 26, 2004 10:36 PM

"I MIGHT agree with you on some level."

Hrm... actually, you know what? I take that back.

Posted by: Sortelli at April 26, 2004 10:46 PM

Sortelli,

all that you are doing is exactly what you're criticizing me for doing. You're flaming me, but with a condescensing smile, and a not-so-subtle air about you of superiority. So why don't you shut your pie hole, I've already said I'm done with this thread.

Posted by: David at April 26, 2004 11:04 PM

I've already said I'm done with this thread.

Heh. If I believed THAT, I wouldn't bother responding. It's a reliable rule of the Internet that no one actually means it when they say they're gone.

You know, I don't think there's anything wrong with speaking harshly. Open discourse is rowdy. Johannes deserves all the hearty "fuck you"s he gets. It's not so much that you speak in anger as it is that you do such a terrible job of it and are saying such stupid things.

If you can pry your fingers off the keyboard for a few seconds, try actually thinking about what everyone's been bashing you over the head with. All you've offered is some grand slanders against capital-L leftists and their awful awful secular religions that destroy our institutions blah blah blah blah blah. Meanwhile, all the people you're labelling as a Leftist for daring to tell you that you're acting like a freak are being a heckuva lot more reasonable about how to handle violent terrorists. All you seem to want to do is blame Lefties for all the problems of the world. It's like watching a right wing Howard Dean scream. YEAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

Posted by: Sortelli at April 26, 2004 11:30 PM

Ged,

I say throw the psychopaths in the clink for sedition and welcome those who are willing to contribute, and, yes, assimilate.

That sounds good, but the devil is in the details. How are you going to seperate the psychopaths from the sane? They live side by side, attend the same mosques and listen to the same imams. The sane can't speak out because they fear the psychopath, and the psychopath is largely exploiting his civil liberties against us. What basis are you going to have to throw them in the clink? What would the ACLU say about this?

Posted by: HA at April 27, 2004 03:14 AM

Regarding JvR...too bad he isn't allowed to view my response since he's been banned. I'd ask since his grandfather won an Iron Cross in WWII, did his grandmother happen to get gang raped by Soviet troops as well? Germany hasn't won a war since 1870, France hasn't since about 1809. I'd ask JvR, how's that Jew bashing working for you?

Posted by: PMB at April 27, 2004 03:16 AM

MJT,

You disgrace your country and our civilization.

JvR is a useful reminder that the old Europe was never far below the surface and may soon reappear.

Posted by: HA at April 27, 2004 03:21 AM

sam,

The second wave, which began largely in the late 1980s is the source of much of the problems that are outlined in the NY Times article. The descendents of the first wave of immigrants are joining this group. The second wave immigrants are the leaders in this situation, the muslims who were born here seem to be following their lead.

So how does this situation get reversed? Right now, the problem is getting worse. Frankly, I don't see this ending without conflict. In order to avoid conflict, several demographic and cultural trends have to be reversed and I don't see how that is going to happen.

Posted by: HA at April 27, 2004 03:27 AM

"JvR is a useful reminder that the old Europe was never far below the surface and may soon reappear."

As if we don't have our own bigots and chauvinists here. JvR is dead wrong, which is all the more reason we need to carefully consider our strategy in combatting him. We have an extensive and proud history of attitude change in our own South to draw on...

I don't think the same "groupthink" JvR himself uses is the answer.

"That sounds good, but the devil is in the details."

Actually, in my experience the devil hides behind the details as an excuse for inaction.

;-)

"How are you going to seperate the psychopaths from the sane?"

I'd say begin by considering our history of sedition jurisprudence not from the perspective of "Whew, good thing we're smart enough now not to believe in sedition!" but saying "Hmmm, maybe our ancestors weren't just paranoid idiots!"

There is established precedent in these matters. We're not the first generation to grapple with these questions - from the Whiskey Rebellion to the New York Draft Riots, there have been those who sought to subvert our union, and those with the balls to resist them.

"They live side by side, attend the same mosques and listen to the same imams."

How do we know how closely they are listening? agreeing with what they hear there? This is not exactly the golden age of oratory - whether from the pulpit or the classroom lectern.

If Bush and Blair can run rings around the vast majority of our own often clueless preachers and professors, what makes you think the Imams are better?

"The sane can't speak out because they fear the psychopath,"

We all fear the psychopath. It's fear well placed. Courage isn't the absence of fear, but acting despite it. We're better positioned to do so than those who have to live with the psychopath. What our excuse for not acting?

"What would the ACLU say about this?"

Our bias would be against it - that's our job (yes, I do carry my card, and proudly), to keep the process honest. We can, however, be convinced, or failing that, overruled. Checks and balances, baby!

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 27, 2004 04:09 AM

Just some final words here.

Michael, how about answering the questions I posed to you? How many Jews are, right now, fighting for your country in the Iraqi campaign?

The Jewish Telegraph Agency says Jews comprise two promille of the total amount of men down there. My guess is that most of them aren't even in fighting positions. They're there as paper turners, radio broadcasters, computer administrators etc.

Why is it OK for the JTA to say this while it on the other hand makes a Gentile saying it somehow 'nazi'?

Yes, Germany and France lost a lot of wars. While America only can look back at great victories. Like the ones in Vietnam and Korea. Or like when you bravely defeated that threatful speckle in the Carribean, Grenada.

Btw, you guys didn't 'win' in WW2, the Russians did. They did 80-90% of the work and then came the western vultures to pick up as much as possible of the spoils. You won over the Italians, but anyone can do that. They even lost against barefoot Africans right before WW2. France as a victor power? Why? What battles did they win in WW2? Not a single one.

As to gloating over how my grandmother was raped by Russians. Well, she at least didn't have sex with animals, like your women seem to be so interested in lately. Just look all over the Internet.

Regarding banning of dissenters.

Michael, and the rest of the clique he belongs to, believe in Henry Ford style free speech. Say what you want, as long as you in all controversial matters agree with me.

Michael is doing to me exactly what I want to do to the Muslims and Jews, keep them out of my house. So that's OK with me. If someone doesn't want you in his house, you simply stay away.

I wish only that the Muslims and Jews too could accept that.

JvR

Posted by: Johannes Rinderknecht at April 27, 2004 06:42 AM

JvR,

Besides being despicable, you are also not logical on several points. By your criteria, blacks and hispanics must be uber patriots because they're more than well represented in the military. But somehow I doubt that is the conclusion you wanted us to reach. After all, they are "non-white" "animals". Yet, your reasoning begs for this illogical conclusion.

Has it occurred to you that there may be, just maybe, other factors which determine who will join the military besides "loyalty", as you put it? For instance, I think 99% of those serving in the military are loyal patriots. But I suspect far fewer than that actually JOIN the military because they are "loyal," or patriotic. You are making logical correlations in your arguments that simply can't be made. Use your head man.

For example, I know for a fact that jews are overrepresented as students in institutions of higher learning. It's a fact. There's nothing wrong with that. Culturally, Jews are over achievers. That is undeniable. Is it possible that there is a lower than average representation of Jews in the military because culturally, as a people, their young are on a different track than say, hispanics and black? This may be a reflection of something else, but loyalty. Loyalty is not an issue here, and you're not using your head.

Now, you have referred to people here in America as "animals", as people of "low-class", "non-white", etc. But few people in the history of mankind have behaved as animalistic as the your gorgeous blond superior Aryans have. The only reason you weren't wiped off the face of the earth for what you did is because we aren't the monsters you proved yourselves to be. You should show some appreciation for that you filthy sack of shit.

Posted by: David at April 27, 2004 08:37 AM

David,

For once, I understand your vitrol... but calling someone you disagree with a "you filthy sack of shit" still makes you sound like an unintelligent person. I would recommend calling him a "Soiled Bag of Rotting Feces".

It sounds much better.

PS - The reason that Aryans (used in the White Supremacy meaning) weren't "wiped off the face of the earth" is because you cannot destroy an ideas, you cannot bomb out dogma and you can't shoot emotional attachments.

A democracy, hopefully, would never try to destroy a bad idea, simply offer enough alternatives that bad ideas get marginalized.

"Tosk

Posted by: Ratatosk at April 27, 2004 09:49 AM

This thread is so much fun to read, I almost hate to disrupt it by addressing the original post topic...much worse, bringing facts to bear upon said topic.

Read Jon Ronson's Them: Adventures With Extremists. There's a whole chapter on Shiek Omar Bakri Mohammed. He's a pathetic joke, and always has been. He's got about as many followers as the guy who shouts at random passersby in my local subway station. This NY Times article is absurd fearmongering. Yes, there are dangerous Muslim elements in the world. No, Omar Bakri Mohammed is not one of them.

Posted by: pdf at April 27, 2004 01:44 PM

Fascinating thread.
If anything, there is not enough fear and danger awareness regarding the islamist threat to europe.
At this time, the radical base is being prepared for large scale insurrection at a later time, when conditions are more ripe. Some are going to Iraq, and they won't be coming back. Most are staying, preparing, and biding their time.
Appeasement will only dig europe's grave deeper and faster. Denial is the close friend of appeasement, and will help dig the grave.

Posted by: Jaime at April 27, 2004 03:11 PM

JvR: Last time I checked the US is not known for its "Scheisse videos." Begone with you, Arschloch. Because of people like you the Allies and Russians had to fight back, the latter pillaging and raping their way across middle Europe (the victims including some seventy-year-old relatives of mine). And you wonder why Americans hold Germans, especially unreconstructed fascists like yourself, in such low regard?

Aren't there any cannibals out there who need some friends? We can cut back on the number of Germans and make extra room for civilized nations like Poland and the Dutch.

Posted by: Chris at April 27, 2004 04:03 PM

To whomever mentioned the Crusades, those were fought outside of Europe (well, except for the pit-stop at Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade) to re-conquer Christian lands overrun by Muslim armies. One really ought to mention the Muslim imperialism preceding the Crusades in order to give the proper context. And to spare us the phony outrage and victim-mongering of such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Almost to the turn of the 17th Century, Europe (counting the Christian Byzantines and Russians) actually did "surrender" to Muslim conquerors -- the Levant to the Arabs; Spain to the Moors; Anatolia, the Balkans, Hungary, and parts of Poland to the Ottomans; and Kievan Rus to the Tatars.

Had it not been for the Frankish victory at Poitiers and the Austrian defense of Vienna against two epic Turkish sieges, most of Continental Europe would have suffered the same unhappy history as the Greeks and Serbs. IMHO.

This 1,300+ year war (with a hiatus from the end of WWI to the foundation of Israel) continues in different forms today -- demographically in Mainland Europe, where the Muslim immigrant birthrate far outstrips those of the negative-replacement white Europeans; politically in Turkey, where only the Army keeps the Islamist ruling party true to Ataturk's secular vision; and violently against Russia and the Christian enclaves in Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia.

Appeasing the Islamofascists ala' Spain, or trafficking with them ala' France and redirecting its cultural insecurities into hostility towards Israel (Europe's Canary) and the United States (Europe's Defender) won't buy Europe peace, any more than Ehud Barak's offer of half of Jersulem bought Israel peace. The Jews have their own state and are capable of defending themselves, so the Europeans don't even have the luxury of "feeding the crocodile" anymore, as, say Vichy France did during the Occupation.

I don't see that the Europeans have any easy options for dealing with the growing, unassimilable, unemployable and seditions Islamic minorities in their midst, or, worse, that they have the stomach for the hard choices remaining. Restive and hostile Islamic minorities will respond to tightened immigration and asylum policies and round-ups and expulsions of seditious elements with massive civil unrest, and electorates will reject re-directing resources from welfare regimes (which will collapse anyway as a declining tax base and a dearth of future taxpayers confront welfare mandates)to national defense.

I don't even see that, judging from their collapsing birthrates, that the Europeans believe in their own future anymore -- that their culture is worth defending, improving, and propagating, and that future generations will lead better lives than they did.

I exclude from that group, perhaps naively, the Brits, the Dutch, the Danes, the Portuguese, the Italians, and the former Soviet satellite states that have sided with us against the Islamofascists and their enablers in Old Europe (alas, Spain). I also exclude the Turks, who by rights should have been admitted to the EU years ago. At least for as long as their domestic political winds permit their alliance with us, I guess.

Sorry to be such a downer, but I honestly believe that aside from a close, likely narrowing circle of allies, that Europe will leave us to confront the Islamofascist threat largely alone, and may at times (I'm talking to YOU, France) collaborate with Islamofascist regimes, as they did with Hussein and are doing now with Syria and Iran.

--furious

Posted by: furious at April 27, 2004 05:34 PM

Ged,

I'd say begin by considering our history of sedition jurisprudence not from the perspective of "Whew, good thing we're smart enough now not to believe in sedition!" but saying "Hmmm, maybe our ancestors weren't just paranoid idiots!"

Such talk can't be easy for a libertarian. Is this not indeed the Devil?

Posted by: HA at April 29, 2004 03:52 AM

Just a few more words.

Michael Totten has decided to ban me from this site. Right or wrong, I have accepted that. Now, all you Ricky Lake people out there who call my name, stop.

I have reviewed your posts and they don't add much of value. You guys aren't as smart as you think you are.

And for the record; I am not a nazi, neither was my grandfather who fought for his country. I don't hate people. I don't consider blacks and other non-whites as "animals". I never said that, nor did I imply that.

Gee, you must be real confused now. Those few independent grey cells that are left after TV brainwashing are going to overload soon, huh?

Just to make it real simple for you to understand what I talk about I will paint you a picture.

Imagine a man, happily married with children, owns house, owns yard, has a car, a job, all. This man will help extinguish a fire at the neighbors house, he will loan out his car to another neighbor who had perhaps a problem with his own. He will even lend his neighbors some money. He will invite them to dinner or barbecue. This is all normal and civilized.

Now let's look at what this man will not agree to. He will not let his neighbors have their own keys to the house and to the car. They will not be allowed to just move in as they want, and on top of that demand to be fed by him.

He will not "loan out" his wife, for sex. (Imagine that he's a non-South Californian). He will not let other parents refer to his kids as 'son' and 'daugter'. He will not sell off his car in order to buy bicycles for the neighborhood. Etc.

Also all normal and ordinary.

So why is it so good to share your country and your life with selfish people who wouldn't give a hoot for you? Why is it such a self-evident blessing to gain Somalian unemployed, uncivilized, thiefing neighbors who talk about gang raping your daugther?

Why is it soo good to be milked for your hard earned cash by people who nothing but despize you?

Ponder on that and enjoy your multicultureal (including jewish) life.

Don't reply to this post. I am now signig off, out of respect to Michael Totten's wish to keep his (virtual) house clean from people like me.

JvR

Posted by: Johannes Rinderknecht at April 29, 2004 06:16 AM

"Such talk can't be easy for a libertarian."

As if anything worth having in this life is easy.

"Is this not indeed the Devil?"

We need not seek the Devil. He is perfectly capable of finding us, and has, and will.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 29, 2004 06:47 AM

Our Jews are our strength.

Auf Wiedersehen, mein bruder.

Posted by: Ged of Earthsea at April 29, 2004 09:53 AM

Ged,

In order to do what you are suggesting, we'd have to resurrect someting like the Alien and Sedition Acts. Is this what you are advocating? Do you think it would be politically feasible? How do you reconcile this with your ACLU sympathies? You're talking about a frontal assault on civil liberties.

Posted by: HA at April 30, 2004 04:10 AM

Regarding the banning of JvR:

"The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honor you can bestow on him. It means that you recognize his superiority to yourself."
- Joseph Sobran

Posted by: Pepe Gonzales at May 2, 2004 07:20 AM

HA,

"You're talking about a frontal assault on civil liberties."

Perhaps you've been to see the rather large hole in the middle of Manhattan. That's what a frontal assault on civil liberties looks like. I'm talking not of assaulting them, but defending them.

The ACLU is our guard dog. Like a good guard dog, it is not immediately trusting - one needs to approach it and let it sniff your hand, let it get a sense of whether you be friend or foe.

Posted by: David Warner at May 2, 2004 08:37 AM

David/Ged,

I'm talking not of assaulting them, but defending them.

I'm in complete agreement with you on this. But I doubt the ACLU is. They are more mad dog than guard dog.

Over the next few years, the country is going to become re-acquainted with the concept of sedition and what to do about it. What do you think it will take to overcome the McCarthyism precedent? In order to follow the path you are talking about, you'll have to get a super-majority on your side and right now we aren't even close. It may even require a Constitutional solution to get past the guard dog. I'm not sure this is possible any more:

Eighty-one percent (81%) of Bush voters also believe the world would be better if other nations were more like the United States. This view is shared by just 48% of Kerry voters.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/USA%20Role%20Model.htm

The necessary super-majority will have to be drawn from 3/4 of the population rather than the whole. Roughly a 1/4 of Americans have lost their belief in America. I don't see how this will change given that the 1/4 control our opinion-forming instutions in the media and universities.

Posted by: HA at May 3, 2004 04:25 AM

"Roughly a 1/4 of Americans have lost their belief in America. I don't see how this will change given that the 1/4 control our opinion-forming instutions in the media and universities."

It might be more accurate to say that they have lost their belief in belief. This, too, is not unprecedented, although the scale of the problem may be unique.

I do see signs of groping around in an effort to find it. I'm merely suggesting we assist them in that effort, by speaking of our own beliefs and connecting them to beliefs they once held and may yet again.

This, too, is difficult and sometimes unrewarded work.

Posted by: David Warner at May 3, 2004 06:57 AM

"What do you think it will take to overcome the McCarthyism precedent?"

Integrity, patience, mercy, honesty, clear-thinking, courage.

The usual.

;-)

Posted by: David Warner at May 3, 2004 06:59 AM

David,

Integrity, patience, mercy, honesty, clear-thinking, courage.

Your list of virtues includes a dubious one. Patience.

When you and I discussed a while ago the possibility of liberal reform in the Islamic world, the difference came down to a matter of timing and probability. While I agree reform is possible(even if unlikely), the question is whether reform can take place in time.

Likewise with the domestic socialists who have lost their belief in America. While it is possible that they may see the error of their ways through the application of the virtues you list, the question is whether this re-Enlightenment can take place in time.

I'm pessimistic on both counts. Patience is a vice, not a virtue. It shouldn't be on your list. The longer it takes for the Islamic world to go through some kind of liberal reform, and the longer it takes domestic socialists to go through some kind of re-Enlightenment, the closer we get to disaster.

Furthermore, the Islamic world seems to be getting more reactionary, not less. And western socialists seem to be getting more fantastically utopian, not less. Just my impression of course. But before the needed reforms can take place, the current trends have to be reversed. I don't see that happening.

Posted by: HA at May 4, 2004 03:55 AM

"God will not suffer man to have a knowledge of things to come; for if he had prescience of his prosperity, he would be careless; and if understanding of his adversity, he would be despairing and senseless."

- St. Augustine

Perhaps perseverance or steadfastness rather than patience. I share your urgency, but such urgency must be ever buoyed by hope. Even if it is only a fool's hope.

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