I'm about 250 pages in, and so far this all seems much ado about nothing. Bush had a pretty good idea where Powell stood. That W's belief is accurate is demonstrated when he asks Powell for his support on the war and Powell agrees to give it, notwithstanding Powell's oft-stated concerns. So while Bandar may well have been told formally prior to Powell (and according to Woodward the time frame is very short), Bush and Powell knew where each other stood before Bandar was brought into the fray. So it's a non-story in any case.

I'm finding the same thing is true of Woodward's book that was true of Clarke's, the media blows tiny segments of the overall work out of proportion, and in most cases, devoid of necessary context. Of course Woodward's book is a far more interesting, less self serving and far better written book.

spc67: Woodward's book is a far more interesting

Did you read the Clarke book too? Would you recommend the Woodward book?

Have read the Clarke Book as well as Ghost Wars, and I just started Woodward.

I recommend all three.

The point about the Bandar meeting is that Bandar was informed that the decision had been made before Powell was.

Woodward said on Larry King Live that Bandar is full of crap in trying to spin "take that to the bank" as Rummy meaning that if we decide to attack we'll finish the job.

This is important because it means that our efforts at the UN after January 11th were a total charade.

Doesn't Woodward also claim he first told Condoleeza about Al-Quida? Or was that a different blowhard?

David: Doesn't Woodward also claim he first told Condoleeza about Al-Quida?

That was Richard Clarke. I don't know that Woodward is a blowhard. I'm just not that interested in the guy.

Huh? Why would Prince Bandar have told Woodward that he had guaranteed to lower oil prices for the election?

I can't imagine what his motive would be to tell Woodward if it were the truth, and it's even less likely that he would have told Woodward if it were a lie.

But at least, of all conservatives and hawks, Frum is prepared to acknowledge (indirectly, by the sweaty-palmed desperation of his spinning) what an incendiary allegation this is.

Whoops - I see that Frum was only talking about Bandar being told before Powell, not the oil prices claim.

So - back to zero conservatives and hawks who have anything to say about oil prices.

i>This is important because it means that our efforts at the UN after January 11th were a total charade.

What efforts are you talking about? Bush said all along that he had all the U.N. resolutions he needed to take out Saddam; e.g., Res. 1441 gave him all the legal authority he ever needed. If he kept returning to the U.N., it was because he wanted them to put their money where their mouth had been when they passed 1441.

But speaking of charades, the U.N. oil for kickbacks programs explains why some people, in particular the French, felt the process "needed more time." Don't you think?

Double whoops - Frum actually addresses the oil prices claim in the entry after the one Michael linked to.

Suffice it to say that my previous post stands. I'm still giggling at the knots Frum has to tie himself into to explain that one away.

Where do they get these buffoons?

OK - finished now.

Did you read the Clarke book too? Would you recommend the Woodward book?

Clarke, read it, don't bother. Woodward, thus far, yes. It's not his best (that's "The Brethren") but it's good and a quick read.

The anti-war folks are gonna get a lot of balloons popped though.

That was Richard Clarke.

I know Michael. I was trying to make a point, and I guess I failed at it.

This is important because it means that our efforts at the UN after January 11th were a total charade.

Nope, it says that war became far more likely because the expectation now became that Saddam would not fold or comply.

If I were the Bush administration (based on the first 300 pages?) I'd be buying and sending copies of this to voters all through the swing states.

most of the commentary i've seen on woodward's book paints powell as a victim, but anne applebaum argues in wed. wash. post that powell "is trying to have it both ways, and it is not an attractive picture." she blames him for "the lack of int'l support, which it was his responsibility to rally, and for the failure of the u.n. process, which was his idea." i don't know how much of this is true, but i really like applebaum's work and i'm afraid this sounds convincing. anybody?

most of the commentary i've seen on woodward's book paints powell as a victim, but anne applebaum argues in wed. wash. post that powell "is trying to have it both ways, and it is not an attractive picture."

I don't think either characterization is fair. Powell is portrayed as a guy having very real concerns about the postwar situation who nevertheless believes Saddam must go. He's clearly not among the more influential guys with Bush, so he's in a tough spot.

she blames him for "the lack of int'l support, which it was his responsibility to rally,

Well, yes and no. Blair needed the help, and Woodward has Cheney, Bush himself and Powell rallying international support. At least for the first UN Resolution, Powell was the guy leading the charge. For the second? Blair made it a requirement. Powell didn't want to go.

and for the failure of the u.n. process, which was his idea."

Not the second round. That was a W decision because Blair needed a political favor.

All the above is what Woodward says, not necessarily what I believe. Having said that? I find most of what Woodward has said throughout the book credible...at least thus far.

Well, we've all heard about how Colin Powell had dinner with Dominique de Villepin and then the next day at the UN was shocked when de Villepin contradicted everything he had said over cheeseburgers the night before. Powell felt "betrayed."

This to me has always suggested that the batteries in Powell's bullshit detector may have been weak.

greeneyeshade: I too like Applebaum's work and find her credible.

I haven't read the new book yet, but Powell was in many ways the main character of The Commanders, and clearly has a long & close relationship with Woodward (as he does with Bandar).

And to me, the only real damning bit about the whole episode is that it just illustrates neatly how damnably intimate Bush & his administration & even his family is with the corrupt representative of the country that produced 15 of the hijackers, exported the virus of Wahabbism around the globe, and contributes greatly to the pool of terrorism by cracking down on and preaching hate to its subjects.

And to me, the only real damning bit about the whole episode is that it just illustrates neatly how damnably intimate Bush & his administration & even his family is with the corrupt representative of the country that produced 15 of the hijackers, exported the virus of Wahabbism around the globe, and contributes greatly to the pool of terrorism by cracking down on and preaching hate to its subjects.

Yeah, but let's not forget the 150 mile border the Saudi's happen to share with Iraq, that we were using some of their facilities and intelligence and that they control the swing in worldwide oil production. There were LOTS of reasons for the Saudi's to be kept very close in this particular case.

There were also lots of reasons to come to terms with the Saudi regime before we even thought about invading Iraq ... such as the fact that Saudi Arabia was instrumental in supporting Islamacist terror, and Iraq was not.

Saudi Arabia was instrumental in supporting Islamacist terror, and Iraq was not.

Yeah, I guess Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas just needed a vacation and we can dismiss those payments to the families of the Palestinian suicide bombers.

Riiight . . . after September 11, we had no more pressing enemy than Palestinian suicide bombers?

A couple of points:

1) What gives re: the gas prices? Frankly, they are actually about where they should be. For some reason, people don't expect gas prices to be impacted by inflation in the same way that other products are. We can't expect $1.00 a gallon forever. Left-of-center enviros should be the most thrilled with the prices, as it inevitably forces at least some people to cut back on driving, thus addressing one of their concerns

2) "...after Sept. 11th, we had no more pressing enemy than palestinian suicide bombers?"

Yes, we did, and they were taken care of in the thirty-day "Quagmire" (Afganistan). Then, based on what was a near-unamimous opinion re: WMDs, the decision was made to address another threat, which would also have several ancillary benefits, such as demostrating to other countries in the region that we would no longer sit idly by, providing an opportunity to develop a "bookend" democracy (with Afganistan) on either side of the Middle East, and, with that democracy in place, provide a 150 mile border with Saudi Arabia from which to rattle our sword.

I don't disagree that Saudi Arabia may in fact have been a more appropriate target in theory: however, it is certainly not difficult to see that the belief may have been that removing Saddam would eventually achieve the same result (Saudi compliance), with a genuine concern about WMD as well, with an easier selling point both in terms of popular support, as well as feasibility. One can disagree with this, but that does not mean that there is something "sinister" about the decision to invade Iraq. Based on the world opinion re: Iraq's WMD, I would have hoped Saddam would have been removed even if 9/11 had never happened.

3) Finally, someone needs to explain why GWB is the only one being held accountable for the lack of WMD. World opinion was near-unamimous on this issue. The Dutch just released their intelligence which had reached much the same conclusion. One can disagree with the decision reached on how todeal with the threat, but to somehow state that GWB was personally inept for listening to the general consensus, or (even more preposterously) he "lied," really demonstrates a lack of serious thought on the issue.

I know there are serious opinions out there that disagree with the decision-making of the current administration (i.e. Mork), but most of the more shrill protestors seem to be rather vacuous.

Jerry

spc67,
Considering that we needed to use Saudi Arabia as a platform for invading Iraq, keeping the Saudis close would seem like a good idea. Of course that assumes that everyone agrees that the war with Iraq was a good idea. If you don't then you probably aren't going to be persuaded by that particular argument.

This part of the book seems to play to the liberal line about Powell, that I have seen expressed over and over in different ways. Liberals acknowledge that Powell is an honorable man, so they basically say that he's been cut out of the loop. Here's how Kerry expressed it to the New York Times:

"I don't know what they let Powell do or not do. I know that it's a war that's been ongoing between the Defense Department and the State Department and the White House throughout this administration. I think simply Powell, who I know, like and admire, has been never permitted to be fully a secretary of state in the way that I envision the secretary of state. I think that a secretary of state should be the president's full, the administration's full-confidence diplomat. Empowered to leverage or negotiate on behalf of the president. Frankly I think the relationship Henry Kissinger had with Richard Nixon was far more of an empowered secretary of state than this one. I think Jim Baker was empowered. I think that Madeleine Albright, Warren Christopher in the Clinton administration in the beginning, Warren Christopher in the Middle East. They were - negotiating and leveraging and working on behalf of the admin. I think Powell, I'm not sure they didn't lock the keys to the airplane up sometimes."

Now, that is a cunning slam against Powell, with a thin veneer of admiration to give Kerry a way out. But think about it for a second. Is there any real reason to believe that Powell would sit still for anything less than the full power and authority of his office? Powell doesn't need this job. He could make millions in the private sector for attending board meetings. It's silly (and borderline racist imho) to say that they lock the planes up at night on him.

Per Woodward on NPR yesterday... his story is the result of hundred's of pages and many many hours of telephone and live interviews with everyone from C. Powel to the Prez himself.

The deal with Bandar was that that Cheney and Rummy felt that once they had told a foregin head of state that we were going to war, this would make it a more permanent dicision.

Since Bandar was in the Whitehouse at the time... and since we would very much like/need to use our military assets stationed in his country... he seemed like the best candidate.

However Bandar refused to take the word of "underlings" and so Bush sat down with him and made it official.

Directly after telling the Prince, Condi reminded Bush to call Powel and give him a heads up.

Everyone appears to be making the assumption that Powell somehow should have known before Bandar... why?

The Sec of State is not a decision maker, he is a diplomat. His job is to do the biding of the Prez, to go to foreign nations and explain the Prez's position and negotiate for support. He does not necessarily have to make these visits... the Prez could do it himself...if he had the time and inclination.

The real issue here is "how much" and "in what manner" did the Prez rely on Cheney and Rummy and Condi to make this decision for him?

Of course, the Prez was never expected to be a military or diplomatic savant... he has a Sec of Defence and a Nat'l Sec Advisor for a reason.

The about Powell is only of interest if you are one of them Whitehouse watchers who wants to guesstimate about who is "in" and who is out today.

We should all get over it (of course, Woodward would rather that you bought his book first).

Mork, what exactly would you have us do against Saudi Arabia? You think our problems are bad now, invading Saudi Arabia would generate instant global jihad. Real Smart. No, in order to neutralize the Saudis, we have to neutralize the idealogy that they promote. That is where Iraq comes in. Anyone notice at the Press conference recently that Bush got very close to saying exactly what Den Beste said, but was very careful not to say it outright? I think that the reason why is related to the current allegations about oil prices vis-a-vis SA. I believe that the recent "no quid-pro-quo" statements from the Saudis are an attempt to hurt Bush's chances at reelection, by adding fuel to the "corruption" charges already leveled at the administration. The Saudis greatly fear a successful, democratic Iraq, especially since the majority of people near the oil fields in SA are Shi'ites. SA is deathly afraid of the administration's democratic push, and will do everything it can to stop it.

Riiight . . . after September 11, we had no more pressing enemy than Palestinian suicide bombers?

Not what you said, nor what I said. GREAT goalpost move though. Well done!

Now, that is a cunning slam against Powell, with a thin veneer of admiration to give Kerry a way out. But think about it for a second. Is there any real reason to believe that Powell would sit still for anything less than the full power and authority of his office? Powell doesn't need this job. He could make millions in the private sector for attending board meetings. It's silly (and borderline racist imho) to say that they lock the planes up at night on him.

Pat,

Powell comes off in the book as entirely in control of State (and a dabbler in the affairs of Defense as well) but still not a member of the Bush inner circle. But for example, when it came time to make the case in the UN? Powell and Armitage personally spent several days at the CIA reviewing raw data and he was given a completely free hand in developing the UN presentation. I think Powell is portrayed sympathetically, but he's not remotely portrayed as limited in any way as Secretary of State. FWIW.

Michael,

Now that I've finished the book I owe you a recommendation. It's most interesting for showing how the Bush White House functions and the ongoing problems in our intelligence community than for anything else. The press really is trying to blow a few things up into big stories (shocking, huh?) that don't read that way in the book. I didn't find a great deal of important new info on the war runup itself.

It's a good read, and some of the anecdotes are fascinating, but this isn't some sort of must read. It's well written and may be compelling for political geeks (like, well, me), but not a must read by any stretch.

This is important because it means that our efforts at the UN after January 11th were a total charade.

Has there ever been a time when any country did not conduct actions at the United Nations that were solely for its own interests?

Of course, there are plenty of occasions for charming displays of multilateralism: either cooperation for simple graft, or "I'll legitimize your dictatorship if you'll legitimize mine" backscratching.

Now if I were going to complain about a charade at the UN, it would be when Cameroon had a swing vote in the Security Council's decision as to whether a North American superpower would be encouraged to invade a Middle Eastern country.

Off topic -- Michael, I e-mailed you back three or four times last night, full of enthusiasm & suggestions. Will try to resend later on this evening.

Matt,

Huh. I didn't get a single email from you.

michaeltotten001@yahoo.com

I sent my phone number in my original email. Maybe you should call me...

Nobody finds it the least bit...what word should I use here?...okay, ODD that Bandar would be shown a top-secret war plan that was not to be shown to any foreigner? And nobody has anything to say about Woodward's assertion that $700 million was diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq without Congress' knowledge? Will anyone even acknowledge the possibility that our coziness with the Saudis just MIGHT have something to do with Bush 1 and 2's longstanding business relationship with them? Will anyone explain why Bush needs Cheney to hold his hand under the table when he testifies before the 9/11 commission? Is there any amount of suspicious behavior on the part of this administation that will cause Bushites to even raise an eyebrow? And this is largely the same bunch who wanted to remove a president for lying about a blowjob. Incredible.

Mr. Kerry, with all due respect, just because we Bush supporters call you "Flipster," that doesn't mean you have to sign off on your posts that way...

Jerry,

You're a jerk. Sorry, that's all you deserve.

My goodness, a sensitive bunch around here! I've seen blogs with terms like traitor, moonbat, Fascist, Communist, etc. tossed around without pause on either side. If a light-hearted jab merits being called a jerk, are you even capable of a reasoned debate?

Jerry,

I've come to this site many times looking for an honest debate, but all I get is name-calling and "light-hearted jabs" which aren't always so light-hearted. I raised what I believe to be very reasonable arguments. Did anyone respond with anything of substance? No, just one lame attempt at humor is all I got. That's why I responded the way I did. Nothing personal, but I've simply had my fill of this crap. Obviously the people who post here are only tolerant of those who believe in Bush's war, so therefore I don't think I'll waste anymore time here. Which is what everyone wants anyway. After all, what could be more un-American than dissent?

Flipster,

A couple points. First, explain to me how my joke is "not so light-hearted." I mean, it would seem that you'd really have to stretch in order to see anything even remotely attacking in that comment. Second, where has anyone accused you of being unamerican? I hear that crap all the time from dissenters, stuff about being "silenced," or called traitors, etc., and I actually see very little of it. Kerry is being portrayed as a flip-flopper. You're name is Flipster. You advocated a position similar to Kerry's. I made a play on words. Any other interpretation is rather paranoid, as well as self-aggrandizing.

Jerry,

I didn't say that your comment wasn't light-hearted; I was simply pointing out that other comments I've gotten were not so light-hearted. I've been called a troll; I've been compared to something you scrape off the bottom of your shoe; I've been asked which side I was on during the Cold War. I've seen numerous generalized smears against people who oppose the war: "fifth column", "pussies", "appeasers".

Don't see much in the way of people being castigated because of their opposition? You must not be paying much attention. Ever heard of the Dixie Chicks? Tim Robbins? Susan Sarandon?

I don't see where I've advocated a position similar to Kerry's. In fact, I don't see where I advocated a position at all. I was merely inviting the Bushites who post here to explain why the shady goings-on inside this administration don't seem to elicit even a shred of scrutiny though many of them probably supported the removal of a president for lying about a personal matter. All i got was in response was one "light-hearted comment".

Right. And because no one else responded to you, and I made a weak joke, I'm a jerk? Thanks for clearing that up.

Also, the scrutiny/comments against the Dixie Chicks, Tim Robbins, et. al. hasn't been nearly as bad as advertised. This idea of being "silenced" is laughable. Tim Robbins isn't a traitor -- he's just a pathetic whiner who needs to learn how to take what he dishes out. My personal favorite was Sean Penn's full page ad in the Times complaining about being silenced. Huh? And people call Bush a moron.

As far as your original post goes, it would seem that you've taken a position very similar to Kerry's -- which is fine. I haven't read the book, so I won't try to answer any charges in it, but I would agree that Saudi Arabia has gotten it too easy, not just from Bush but from every administration as far as the eye can see. Has Bush been blinded by personal connections with that country? Possibly, but I still wouldn't have advocated an invasion of them over Iraq, as the world has never been unified in the opinion that Saudi Arabia has used WMD in the past, and had made them again, as with Iraq.

You want silenced and oppressed, go to an art gallery in New York and mention in passing you support Bush's foreign policy.

Talk about getting harshed on....

Jerry,

"I haven't read the book" is just an excuse not to comment on issues we know were raised in it. My original post asked for comments from Bush supporters about whether or not they had a problem with a diversion of $700 million from Afghanistan to Iraq without congressional approval, whether or not they thought it was okay to show a foreigner a war plan foreigners were not supposed to see, and why nobody should have a problem with Bush and Cheney testifying jointly instead of separately. Obviously no one has anything to say about this stuff, so I got my answer: Can't defend it so I'll ignore it. Fine.

Obviously you haven't paid much attention to the news the last few months, so I'll be the one to break the news to you. Ready? Here it is...

THERE WERE NO WMD IN IRAQ.

Flipster,

Obviously, YOU weren't paying attention for the months prior to the invasion. No one disputed the presence of WMD in Iraq. No one. This wasn't just Bush claiming it -- if we are going to attack him, then I also demand an explanation from Britain, France, Russia, as well as Dick Gephardt, Al Gore, Bill and Hillary Clinton, etc. Everyone said they were there. Everyone. So, please spare me any crap about "Bush lied." The only debate was what to do about it.

Want to argue that point -- fine. I think those who argued for ongoing containment were wrong, given what we believed at the time. However, I've never said that it wasn't a valid argument. The problem I have is with hindsight-- people attempting to rewrite what the debate was after the fact. From that standpoint, the lack of WMD is irrelevant, because nobody was arguing that they weren't there (with the "sort of" exception of Blix, who clearly had lost significantly credibility, though the antiwar folks will likely, again, argue differently with the benefit of hindsight).

Again, as far as your points go (and I will repeat), I think there is some credibility to the idea that Bush is too close to the Saudis. Do I need to repeat it again in order for you to stop saying that no one is commenting on your post? Ok -- BUSH MAY BE TOO CLOSE THE SAUDIS. Again, given what international intellignece stated prior to our Iraq invasion, Iraq appeared to be A) a more important military target, and B) a more feasible military target. This may be one of those "nuanced" explanations that "some" people have trouble with -- justification for invasion of both, but feasibility only for one, with different avenues necessary for the other. As far as the Afganistan money, did congress need to know about it? I ask in all seriousness, given the breadth and depth of the resolutions passed by congress for both Afganistan and Iraq. They seemed pretty broad at the time, which I remember was one of the complaints. If congress was supposed to know about it, and wasn't informed, then there should be questions asked.

Maybe now I'll whine about how nobody discussed my post, 2-3 posts prior to your first.

Jerry,

I never said Bush lied; I don't know if he did or not; He may have merely been mislead by the people who are running him. I can't answer for those Dems who said the weapons were there; Some of them have complained that they were mislead and just took Bush's word on it. I will tell you that I knew they weren't there because there were inspections and inspections and still more inspections done by the UN that found nothing. But the administration wasn't going to let the facts get in the way of their agenda, so they called Blix incompetent and demonized the UN because they weren't singing the song they wanted to hear. As far as the $700 million goes, yeah, Congress is supposed to know about it. At least that's the way it worked once upon a time when we still paid some attention to the Constitution. Congress appropriates spending, not the executive.

Flipster,

It's not just the Dems. It's just about every other significant foreign country's intelligence that stated this. I mean, last week, the Dutch came out and said they thought Iraq had them. Now, to state that Bush ignored the "facts" in pursuit of his agenda would seem to me to be incongruent with the fact that all of these governments, including ones who decided invasion was unnecessary (which lends credence to the WMD argument in this case) believed Iraq did have them. What was France's agenda? Russia's? They said Iraq had them, but voted against invasion (well, only on the last resolution). To state that Bush went way outside the mainstream on this would be revisionist.

The constitution -- what's that? Can you teach me? Yes, I'm familiar with the consitution -- for someone who whines about not getting responses to what you write, you don't read very well. I asked if there were any specific funding disclaimers in the war resolutions, given that the complaint about the resolutiuons was that they were so broad -- something that might have allowed the administration to shift funds to anyplace "which might be necessary to combat terrorism," or something like that. Then it would be constitutional, as congress would have ceded control. You'd have to read the resolutions to answer this. Personally, I've got better things to do.

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