Damn Buddhists again.

If this goes on there might be a Japanese style backlash in Spain.

I was astonished to read
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20040420wo04.htm
74% back govt's handling of Iraq hostage crises

Yomiuri Shimbun

Nearly three in four Japanese people, or 74 percent, approved of the government's overall handling of the recent hostage crises in Iraq, according to a Yomiuri Shimbun survey conducted Saturday and Sunday

Why shy away from the word "evil"? At some point, the action defines itself. Is not an "honor rape" evil? Is it not evil to strap an explosives belt on a slow-witted 12 year and send him to blow himself up? (And then he cried "I don't know how to get it off!") Is it not evil to slash the face of a teenage girl caught not wearing a veil?

What are you saving the word up for? How bad does a crime have to be?

As bad as that sounds, it was actually even worse.

You want to know what is REALLY creepy? Two Americans getting gunned down by Arabs in cold blood on the UN mission Kosovi and the Establishment Media is virtually silent.

The Establishment Media mantra about the UN is monumentally creepy:

THE UN IS THE SOLE SOURCE OF LEGITIMACY - MUST NOT CRITICIZE UN...
THE UN IS THE SOLE SOURCE OF LEGITIMACY - MUST NOT CRITICIZE UN...
THE UN IS THE SOLE SOURCE OF LEGITIMACY - MUST NOT CRITICIZE UN...

OOOOHHHHMMMMM!

Have no doubt that if two Arabs were gunned down by Americans in Kosovo we would never hear the end of it.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3494

miklos

Why shy away from the word "evil"? At some point, the action defines itself.

Damn you are starting to sound like me! I don't have to say anything now except I left you a late response in the last thread if you care to check.

miklos, actually it is in the "Paranoid Blowhard" (two threads ago)... MJT was playing his Vampire role last night.

Well, lookit what they did to those contractor guys in Falluhjah.

Same sort of thinking going on.

I have no idea what a "religious sense of evil" is. Is the bad Manichaean deity? Or is that the demon in the movie, The Exorcist? Do you have to cackle to be evil?

When the Bush Administration says, "evil," I interpret this as "serious harm that makes people unable to lead good lives." When they say, "evildoers" or "evil people," I interpret this as "people who prefer to do evil." Under these interpretations, the Administration's utterances make perfect sense to me. It's obvious that the terrorists are evil and prefer to do evil.

In addition, Bush says there is a god who is on our side of the fight against evil. I don't buy that, but it certainly doesn't mean he has some freaked-out, religously fanatical sense of "evil". Even if he believes the devil makes terrorists do evil, it doesn't mean he has some freaked-out, religously fanatical sense of "evil". Ah, maybe that's it: a "religious sense of evil" must mean "a freaked-out, religiously fanatical sense of evil," in other words, one that mistakes things that aren't evil for things that are evil. Bush hasn't done that. Does he say it is "evil" for me to look at certain curvacious features which have revealed themselves this month in honor of Spring? Does he put me in the same category as Osama - evil - because I'm an atheist? I don't think so. At least, he hasn't sent anyone to my house to take me to Guantanamo for these crimes.

I guess that either the antipathy to Bush's describing some things as "evil" is a belief that the terrorists aren't actually doing evil, or it's a belief that Bush is a freaked-out religious nut who will eventually apply the term "evil" to things that are not evil, because his sense of "evil" is simply incorrect. Now certainly the former is wildly implausible; the terrorists are certainly evil. As for the latter, there is no evidence that Bush is a fanatic.

Moreover, this antipathy also has a price to pay. Shutting down the use of the term "evil" prevents us from expressing extremely important facts, namely that certain people and events cause serious harm that make people unable to live good lives. I've heard it said many times that it is incorrect to describe the terrorists as "evil". This muddies the waters in the forum. Importantly, the terrorists are evil, to the tune of thousands of lives. Islamofascism is evil to the tune of hundreds of millions.

Forget evil, the word terrorist seems to be verboten . Take a look at the AP (or god forbid, AFP), CNN, or other news feeds, and you won't find the word terrorist outside of a direct quote.

Here's a link to the initial report of the Japanese hostage taking in Iraq (you remember, the one where the hostages were threatened with imolation.)

The story refers to the hostage takers throughout as "insurgnets" (except for once near the top where they were "kidnappers".)

If you can't call people who are threatening to burn humans alive terrorists, then you certainly can't go even farther and call them evil.

I don't believe in evil, at least not in the religious sense of the word.

That's like saying you don't believe in air, or the sky, even though you're breathing it and it's all around you, even though it takes a charred corpse to get your attention.

I suppose that's why you atheists are afraid to use the word 'evil' --you're afraid of unintentionally endorsing anything that might be found in the Bible. So you walk around with blinders thinking it makes you more enlightened.

David,
"I suppose that's why you atheists are afraid to use the word 'evil'"

Atheists are a pretty diverse group, with a lot of different interpretations of the world, particularly when it comes to issues like evil. So anything you can say for one group of atheists is not necessarily true for another, or in fact any other atheists.

So I admit that there are atheists that don't use the word evil as it appears in the bible, I personally regard them as idiots at best. At worst their outright helping it along.

Personally I've always thought of evil as a choice made by individuals, but not as anything with an actual physical personification like the devil. Now people, through their actions can coem to personify evil, eg Saddam, Stalin, Hitler etc.

Islam is the religion of what was that again?

Evil?

Well, let's put religion aside then, and head for the dictionary:

[Old English yfel . Ultimately from an Indo-European word meaning “exceeding due limits.”]

This desecration certainly was an act 'exceeding due limits' and therefore evil.

There, wasn't that easy? :)

Sam,

the Bible talks about 'sin'; and its result is "evil". When you, Sam, talk about "choices", you are hitting on the biblical concept of man's sin nature, and the evil that results from it. It's all very obvious for the plain eye to see, notwithstanding our disbelief in men in red devil suits and pitchforks (which isn't even biblical).

Evil? Try cowardly. Maybe my concern about what happens to a body post mortem isn't high enough, but I have to scoff at the thought that jihadis think this would strike fear into the hearts of anyone.

How disappointing for Muslims that the perpetrators might claim to be part of the same religion. If, that is, someone were to claim the action as their own.

It seems to be an islamist thing. Islamism unhinges the minds of its adherents. The cult of death and desecration.
Do normal moderate muslims feel as appalled by this behavior as everyone else? Would it be too much to ask them to speak out?

Evil works for me as an adjective, not as a noun. This little cemetery scene makes me think of horror novels where evil exists as a noun.

Make sense?

I don’t know if I’d use 'evil' to describe it, because evil is one of those all-encompassing words, like 'bad.'

It’s more of a combination of pure hatred, complete indifference to human dignity and impotent rage, done by people whose moral reasoning doesn’t reach the level of an amoeba.

At least amoebas are productive. This is pure destruction. There are all kinds of evil – this is at the making-skin-lampshades level.

David,
"When you, Sam, talk about "choices", you are hitting on the biblical concept of man's sin nature, and the evil that results from it."

Do you mean sinful nature here? I'm not sure if I'm reading this properly.

Anyway I never bought into the idea that human beings are inherently sinful and have to be redeemed by some outside force. When your born you have a blank slate and you go on from there. Whether or not you become good or evil is up to you and the choices that you make.

"notwithstanding our disbelief in men in red devil suits and pitchforks (which isn't even biblical)."

I know that that isn't how it is in the bible but it is definitely a part of the Christian belief system. I wasn't talking about the standard image of the guy with horns in a red suit, I was thinking more about the devil referred to in the bible itself. Primarily in the old testament and in revelations, but also to Jesus during the wandering in the wilderness.

Michael -- you're more intellectual than I am -- to me Evil is an immediate visceral gut/heart almost physical reaction -- I know evil when I see it.

What's that line?

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't exist"

substitute evil for devil, and there you go ;)

Maybe b/c we live in a modern, scientific, secular country, we're in some sort of denial about evil?

AND YET, the last century was the most evil ever -- w/fascism, and that scourge of humanity, Communism -- whose horrors carry over to today ---- this Islamo-fascism is another anti-Life, and yes, evil ideology.

MT, I don't guess you'd have any objections to the noun in "The massacre at the WTC was a great evil," or "The terrorists did evil." So, I think the noun you have in mind is the devil, the Manichaean bad god, or some sort of evil spirit outside of man which can get into man and make him do evil. I don't believe in any such evil, either. But I have no objection to Bush or Ashcroft believing or saying that they think the terrorists are evil because they are inhabited by an evil. I don't agree, but if that's how they want to think of the evildoers, that's fine with me. It makes no practical difference.

Mary's right. "Evil" is too blunt in the creepy case. The perpetrators are crazy, in addition to evil. Or, better, they are so exceedingly evil that they are driven to do things that are crazy just because those things resemble the exceedingly evil things they want to do but cannot.

Philly, I think you're on to something. The personification of evil in the form of the devil leads rationalists to dismiss both. Rationalists see no reason to believe in the devil, and the instinct is that if there is no devil, there can be no absolute evil.

Rationalists need to start thinking of evil as existing outside the confines of theology. It sure looks like evil isn't going to disappear if we close our eyes and hope real hard. Denial is the irrational response.

Mark,
Thats basically my point, evil does quite definitly exist outside of theology classes. You can believe in the existence of evil without being religious, either as an agnostic or an atheist. Some, though by no means all atheists/agnostics don't accept the existence of evil for basically the same reasons you outline above.

Or, let's flip it around, ok?

Democracy is Good.

We all recognize that simple truth, right?

Well, then the opposite of Democracy would be evil, wouldn't it?

I don't over-intellectualize: the sky is blue, grass is green; Democracy is good; anti-democracy is evil. :)

It's all so simple ;)

Mark, that was very well put.

Philly,
"Democracy is Good.

We all recognize that simple truth, right?"

Yes. Though its extremely irritating when people don't vote the way you want.:)

Or as one British MP said on finding out that he'd lost his seat.
"The people have spoken, the bastards"

Do normal moderate muslims feel as appalled by this behavior as everyone else? Would it be too much to ask them to speak out?

I had MANY muslim friends in college, some were Arab and others Pakistani, etc. They all had the veneer of good breeding and education, and they did not strike me as muslim fanatics by any means. They were simply devout, some more than others.

I thought them perfectly civilized until the fatwa was issued against Salman Rushdie, and I was shocked to discover that they all WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREED it despite my naive attempts to convince them using western concepts of tolerance and freedom.

It has become painfully obvious to me, in hindsight, that despite our desire to believe all men are the same, all cultures are equal, etc, it simply isn't true.

Sam - that's good; I enjoy quotes ;)

This one's on point:

"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good." Marcus Tullius Cicero

Philly,

Good one. When did Cicero say that again? I have trouble keeping the dates for quotes straight in my head.

Sam - I have no idea; I'm ignorant about Cicero --put a gun to my head, and I couldn't tell you 2 sentences about him! something Roman? I just like quotes! LOL

Here's one fave source; it's a treasure trove:

http://www.hillwatch.com/PPRC/Quotes/Democracy.aspx

Thanks for the link, thats an interesting site. Have you ever seen The Dictionary of Cynical Quotations? Its got quotes from all over the place on every topic under the sun, including a lot of ones that I've never heard before. Its a book not a site so I cant provide a link.

I found the simplest of all!

"Evil events from evil causes spring"

by Ammianus Marcellinus (a 4th century Roman elite soldier)

That's real easy to understand, isn't it?

(Sam - no, but I'll keep one eye open for it -- to me, quotes are a lovely shortcut to wisdom, experience, truth, etc.)

Perhaps our discomfort with the word "evil" springs from the modern tendency to see things in shades of gray rather than black and white. Nuance certainly exists, and in many cases there is no obvious correct answer to a given question. That said, there is a place for absolutes -- for my part, evil exists.

Perhaps I should have simply said that I don't believe in evil in the Satanic sense. Does that make more sense?

There you go.

What you are saying is...you don't believe in Satan as the author of evil. On a side note, who determines what evil is? Can I?

But, But .... we ARE the Great Satan ;)

Great Satan

A term used by Iranian leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (1900-1989) to describe the United States, because of US support of Israel and support of Islamic governments, including Iran's former Shah, seen as un-Islamic.

LOL --- anyone and everyone's the Great Satan, even Microsoft and Wal-Mart!! ;)

[just a little Brevity Break]

Appeasement Update

I informed my Leftist father, who is a Spaniard, about the desecrated body of this policeman, and he basically said the response was natural given that the police did not first attempt to negotiate with the terrorists. So there you go. To the Left, terrorists can do no harm. It's always whiteys fault.

Oh, David - I'm so, so sorry :(

Where did you get your good sense from? maybe your mother?

Where did you get your good sense from? maybe your mother?

Yup. Never a boring moment in that house.

My parents came from Stalinist Soviet Ukraine - they fled after WWII -- they spoke in one voice against Communism; unfortunately, they both died years ago -- pre 9/11 -- I would've appreciated their viewpoint now -- they were very political and had unique takes on events.

It wasn't a boring house though -- we argued, debated, and laughed and laughed ;)

Isn't religion just a system that humans use to describe real human experiences and observances? For example, the Creation story is a religious description of how we got here. Evil exits in the Christian narrative because it is a way of explaining the human condition, (that we basically can do some pretty awful things to one another). Whether or not you believe in Christianity is not relevant to discussing the larger issue, which is trying to understand the human condition.

(The bigger question is for the non-theist to answer the question of where evil, if it really exists, comes from).

Perhaps I should have simply said that I don't believe in evil in the Satanic sense. Does that make more sense?
*************************************************
So what is your concept of evil? There are good people, there are bad people,and there are people who are truly evil.

To meet true evil face to face is rare. I would not wish that one you.

I once met such a man, he smiled all the time, but he made my skin crawl. I told my roomate not to bring him into my house again. I owned the house and TJ was a non-paying guest.

When asked why all I could say was for some reason he made my skin feel greasy. I had no logical explanation. I just wanted him away.

A couple of years later he raped two small girls to death and set a house on fire to cover up his crime.

There was SOMETHING very wrong about that guy when I met him I could not put my finger on it.

Daniel,

Evil is hard for me to define. Like pornography, I know it when I see it. It seems, from your story, that you do too.

What's creepy AND evil is CNN changing their story so quickly, and not mentioning that they changed it.

See also here.

Most liberals (those unmugged by reality) have a problem with the concept of "evil" because acknowledging that evil does exist means several things they'd just rather not deal with.

I know Totten's "evil" dilemma isn't like this at all. If he was inflicted with the true liberal loathing of "evil," he would joining the chorus of Bush haters. No, Totten's problem with "evil" is simply wishing not to sink to the level of those commonly associated with embracing concepts like the "devil" and such.

Totten is a very sophisticated fellow. And sophisticate first and foremost reject the lower orders (people like Bush who see things in black and white), the way they think, move and act. Totten is more like God himself in this respect... almost as if in the act of denying evil one can rise above it, and into the stratosphere far above the wreckage of humanity.

There was only one guy ever got so close to God to have both touched this stratospheric realm and yet still remain essentially human, touchable by even the most lowly among us... Jesus Christ.

And, of course, Totten's opinion of Christ is quite low indeed. Thus he remains tied to the sophistacated classes who reject the notion of "evil." They are just way too cool, man. :)

Marc S. Lamb

This is something so sickening, so barbaric and so depraved, its hard to think of such an action occurring in any civilization.

This act wasn't unique however, the Palestinians have defaced Jewish tombs and places of religious significance. They tear apart dead bodies with their hands and bathe their hands in the dead person's blood.

Respect for the dead should be universal. You could argue that the body was already dead and thus you werent violating any human rights. Well imagine all the anguish inflicted on the family of the deceased.

Marc Lamb: And, of course, Totten's opinion of Christ is quite low indeed.

C'mon, Marc. You should know me better than that by now. I don't think Jesus was the Son of God, but he was a good guy.

I have to say that you've got the patience of a saint, Michael.

"The bigger question is for the non-theist to answer the question of where evil, if it really exists, comes from"

As a non-theist I can tell you, from the absence of good. 'Good' coming from the ability to of an individual to recognize others as individuals with feelings etc. BTW, this doesn't have to be evil (the Spanish grave desecration), maybe this guy raped and killed someones daughter and he was venting his rage. Evil, good, terrorism, these all have some subjective aspects.

Lamb: No, Totten's problem with "evil" is simply wishing not to sink to the level of those commonly associated with embracing concepts like the "devil" and such.

Totten: C'mon, Marc. You should know me better than that by now. I don't think Jesus was the Son of God, but he was a good guy.

C'mon, dude, be honest with yourself. Jesus called himself "God." Not "god," but God! That's wacko, and you know it. Good guys don't walk around claiming to be God. Unless, of course, he might be telling the truth.

Furthermore, I visit this site once or twice a month, Michael, and everytime it seems you're gleaming bigot teeth are front and center. Granted, you do pick on the wacky left with equal zeal. But let's face it, your not leaving Liberalism in the dust because of these intolerant jerks.

What it boils down to is that you've got your religion and I've got mine. You have your wackos and I got mine. At the end of the day those things cancel each other out... and all one is left with is himself and his God... or "god."

Marc S. Lamb

Looks like CNN does not believe in evil either.

When faced with it, they just edit the story.

THAT is what I find creepy.

Best guess about why CNN changed the story: concern that it would inflame anti-islamic hatred.

Turns out the monsters no longer have to form secret societies. The well-meaning press will keep their secrets for them.

And when it all blows up, it's the whole islamic culture that gets hated, instead of just the self-selected sickos.

Bloody brilliant, Ted and Co.

If you should ever find yourself doubting the existence of evil, just ride along with your local police for about three months.

There's good and evil in the world, and the saddest thing about it is that both take a lot of work to get right.

As I type this I'm listening to the radio news talk about this morning's car bombings in Basra. The deaths of a random clutch of preschool kids on their way to class in their minivan was mentioned in passing. The Fallujah dead enders popped an ambush. The Sauds got bombed. The BBC is busy painting the Marines as indiscriminate murderers, at fault for the deaths of non-combatants in a town where enemy SOP has been to herd women and children into the line of fire as cover for their movements. I don't doubt that there will be attempts to hit us here at home, and soon, since their efforts abroad have had zero effect on our commitment to date.

That will be a mistake on their part. They don't understand us, and they have declined to learn from the last three years. Fair enough.

This day is 1863 in Pennslyvania...1943 in Italy...1944 in Burma.

What can you say about an enemy who isn't satisfied with merely killing you, but feels compelled to defile your grave? Just where does U.N. intervention or respecting different cultural mores come in here? What price are we willing to pay to live in a world with people like that?

I'm not willing to spend a dime to let it continue to happen. I'm more than willing to pay the price to see that evil removed by whatever means is required.

In about six weeks the Iraqis will be responsible for their own laws, courts, and leadership. They will have our support but the duty to act as a nation of civilized men will be on them. I'd spend a few moments discussing the moral courage behind choosing that course of action...but if you don't see it, there's not enough bandwidth to convince you here. The mullahs and terrorists know it, and we can expect more of today's spectacular acts of murder right up until the transfer takes place.

They may get some solace watching our media, but the issue is not in the hands of pundits or anchors. The Marines, Army, and other coalition forces on the ground, and the leadership, know the stakes and will act accordingly. The vast majority of the Iraqi population, once they are finally convinced that we aren't going to walk away and that they won't be murdered, may step up and sieze the ring...

I hope. Men must work for freedom; so many of us have allowed ourselves to think it's some sort of accidental natural state that I do fear for the ability of the Iraqis as a population to get it - especially after four millenia of serfdom.

We'll see.

Ok, CNN changed the story and I'd like to know why. I simply do not understand, and before I decide to lose my mind over this I'm requesting one of you Lefty symps to explain the rationale to me. WTF is going on here???

A semi-serious post on this interesting topic:

This is a great semantic discussion. What is 'evil'? Are terrorists 'evil'? Are muslims 'evil'?

Perhaps we could succiently say "Evil is what appears to be evil to the observer". For example, Bin Laden very much believes in evil, he believes that secular Western Society is evil. The British considered the upstart revoilutionists in 1776 to be 'evil'. Joan of Arc was 'evil' to the English mind.

What about evil acts? Would attempted genocide be evil? We certianly think so when discussing Hitler, but what about the genocide of the Native Americans? Was the American government 'evil'?

If someone breaks a law, are they evil? The Rastafarian who grows, cares for and smokes his own marijuana for religious purposes... is he evil? What about the 19 year old guy, who has sex with a 17 year old girl and goes to jail for 'statutory rape'... is he 'evil'?

I certianly think that the desecration of any dead body is stupid and a throwback to animalistic 'territorial' urges. I don't think the poor french sod cared, but I'm sure it was a difficult thing for his surviving family.

Evil seems to have no single agreed understanding... it usually depends on the reality-tunnel of the individual. Micheal may have meant to say that he didn't believe in 'evildoers/devil inspired anti-christ people'.

There is one thing that I would call ultimately evil. We can trace almost every evil act back to one key evil... dogma (except for the complete loonys who think that dogs tell them to kill people).

People in muslim countries aren't born to do 'evil', people in this country aren't born to support 'evil' laws... we are trained like good little robots to believe in a certain dogma (be it Christian, pro-democracy, Right wing, Left wing, Muslim, Fundamentalist Millita, follower of Do, Jim Jones or any other freak. The problem is the closed minded approach most humans take to reality. The Muslims truly believe that they are good. Osama probably believes that he has the backing of Allah, just as our leader thinks he has the backing of Yaweah and Son.

Christians pushed prohibition because their dogma siad liquor was evil. The prohibition on marijuana (while tobacco remains legal) is a nice mix of Dogma and shady deals between Big Government and Big Business.

Most of what we consider good/bad/right/wrong is based entirely on the world we are born into and the dogma we are fed.

That being said, I personally consider the acts of Bin Laden/Terrorism, assasinations of political enemies and many other things perpatrated by us and them (being anyone who isn't us... whoever us may be) to be 'evil' acts. If Bin Laden had launched attacks directly at millitary and political targets, I would have said it was an act of war, but not particularly 'evil'. Killing thousands of random people, simply because they happen to live in a country with policies you disagree with seems to be an evil act to me.

tosk

Evil is what appears to be evil to the observer.

That's circular and therefore says nothing.

We can trace almost every evil act back to one key evil... dogma.

But the guy who raped and killed the little girls had no dogma but did evil.

The problem is the closed minded approach most humans take to reality.

Charles Manson had a wide-open approach to reality, but he was evil.

Evil seems to have no single agreed understanding... it usually depends on the reality-tunnel of the individual....We are trained like good little robots to believe in a certain dogma....That being said, I personally consider the acts of Bin Laden/Terrorism, assasinations of political enemies and many other things perpatrated by us and them (being anyone who isn't us... whoever us may be) to be 'evil' acts.... Killing thousands of random people, simply because they happen to live in a country with policies you disagree with seems to be an evil act to me.

It sounds as though you both believe terrorism to be evil and believe that it is not really evil because evil is just a hoax. So, you say two mutually inconsistent things. That means that again you've said nothing. You try to say that freeing ourselves from the dogmas according to which some things are evil will stop us from doing evil. But this makes no sense. Because if evil is just a hoax, then we're not doing evil in the first place and therefore cannot stop doing it by ridding ourselves of dogmas.

Overall, you don't take evil seriously, even denying its reality. You want to take the evil of terrorism seriously. But you cannot. You use scare quotes when you apply the word "evil" to terrorism, and you qualify its evil as being merely evil to you. You're so badly hobbled by your anti-reality dogma that you cannot even acknowledge basic, obvious moral truths, such as that al Qaeda's terrorism is evil. Clearly, you should abandon your anti-reality dogma.

Why do muslims think Europeans will simply lie down and allow themselves to be abused this way? What is it about European behavior that gives them this notion?

Jim,

First, I qualified my statements about evil and dogma with "most" (not all). A person who rapes little girls, a mass-murdering psychopath, etc. are not dogma issues so much as "something has gone wrong in their brain" issues (perhaps you missed my comment about people with talking dogs).

Second, you are looking through the lens of duality. You seem to think that soemthing must be true or false, yes or no, right or wrong, black or white. Yet we live in a world of technicolor.

I believe that it is a "very bad thing" for someone to fly a plane full of random people, into a building full of random people. To me it seems an "evil/wrong/bad/what word you choose" act. Desecrating a grave isn't, to me, evil... its moronic, betrays a lack of actual thinking (relying instead on the Territorial brain to command action).

To say a blanket statement "X is Evil" makes things very simple and requires little thought. To say instead, "X seems evil to me", realizing that to others it may seem perfectly acceptable... in fact, others may believe they have the backing of their deity.

It is easy to pound ones chest, point ones finger and call down the Wrath of the Lord on thine enemies. It is less easy to look at oneself through the eyes of the enemy and understand.

And its a darn fool who thinks in Aristoliean Logic.

Ratatosk

Two more un-purged mentions of this horror.

Blog

News

Hey Tosk,

What about evil acts? Would attempted genocide be evil? We certianly think so when discussing Hitler, but what about the genocide of the Native Americans? Was the American government 'evil'?

Actually, yeah, pretty much. The Trail of Tears was some evil shit. We had let evil run its course in the US, and it could happen to us again. That's why it's important to be able to recognize real evil instead of just slinging the term around as slander.

Getting back to what I wanted to say, I recommend you reformulate the question from "Does dogma beget evil?" to "Does evil beget dogma?" As you alluded with your technicolor world analogy, simple cause and effect analysis doesn't work in a situation where the variables change the environment, and vice versa.

(When you get right now to it, the world is one ugly n-dimensional multivariant partial differential equation.)

But as someone (Michael?) said earlier, it's pretty easy to recognize evil when you see it. And globally speaking, I think there are a small subset of things called evil that are nearly universally reviled. Since that would be a hideous list to write out, I won't.

But I will agree with you that it takes a really sophisticated mind dedicated to a particularly pure dogma to go ahead and do the things on that short list. (Or someone just psycho, but those folks tend not to take really big chunks out of populations.)

Sam, the quote:

"The People Have Spoken...the Bastards"

Was not by a British MP who lost his seat. Rather....

A show on BBC 4 Radio recently ran a contest asking listeners to suggest a piece of legislation that would improve life in Britain, promising that the winning proposal would be introduced by Labour Party M.P. Stephen Pound.

Both Pound and the show's producers regretted the offer once it became clear that the most popular suggestion was a law allowing homeowners "to use any means to defend their home from intruders."

Pound denounced the proposal as a "ludicrous, brutal, unworkable blood-stained piece of legislation," saying, "The people have spoken...the bastards."

He told The Independent: "We are going to have to re-evaluate the listenership of Radio 4. I would have expected this result if there had been a poll in The Sun. Do we really want a law that says you can slaughter anyone who climbs in your window?"

The vote apparently was part of the popular reaction against the conviction and imprisonment of Norfolk farmer Tony Martin for shooting a burglar.

Martin, who was initially sentenced to life for murder but ultimately served three years of a five-year sentence for manslaughter, has endorsed the bill. His prosecution became a cause celebre for supporters of the right to self-defense--who clearly do not include enlightened thinkers such as Pound.

Furthermore, Shipley was actually quoting Mark Twain.

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Tosk, one more point:

I believe that it is a "very bad thing" for someone to fly a plane full of random people, into a building full of random people. To me it seems an "evil/wrong/bad/what word you choose" act. Desecrating a grave isn't, to me, evil... its moronic, betrays a lack of actual thinking (relying instead on the Territorial brain to command action).

I'm perfectly fine calling the desecration evil. I believe you make a mistake by assuming the object of the excercise was to hurt the deceased. Instead my reading is the terrorists (and that's what they were ) intended to hurt the people who loved and respected the dead man. Just total maliciousness towards the family and friends. And towards the society at large, whom this officer of the law served.

And the desecration has hurt them. That's why everyone is so outraged.

Got a dead relative? Imagine said dead relative's body treated the way the officer's body was treated. Now imagine the perpetrators laughing when they imagine how you must feel.

That's what evil looks like.

Sean,

The Left hates "the People", looks down on them as barbarians, while at the same time presuming to look after their interests. The Left don't actually MIX with the People.

A scene from the movie "Gladiator" aptly illustrated this sentiment. In one scene, Senator Graccus, while at the circus, made no bones about his disdain for the screaming hordes, and expressed that though he was "FOR the people", he was not "OF the people," savages that they were.

Your Pound was surprised to discover that his listeners were nothing but savages, and now he will have to "re-evaluate them".

Interesting ideas, Ratatosk. Do you have any reason to suppose that they are true?

Ah, but you aren't interested in discovering truths, denying that "that something must be true or false," resorting to ad hominem epithets instead of argument ("darn fool") and cloaking your stance in a pretense of sophistication ("requires little thought"). As the merry prankster in the forum, your goal is to spread fun, glee, and wonder, but only, and intentionally, as a distraction to the vital interest of the forum: to uncover truths.

I was you. Not the moral relativism, but the Zen thing, the anti-reality stance, the hatred of Aristotelian logic, yada yada. It was a buzz. That is all. I, too, dismissed the clear evidence that I was wrong as the foolish dogma of the unsophisticated old farts who weren't hip to Being, or whatever. But then the late 20s set in, and one wants more than a buzz. One begins to consider evidence, to look for beliefs that are more justified by it than others, and to acknowledge robustly confirmed facts, such as that there are galaxies, that the sun heats the earth, that I am on the earth and not at the center of the sun, that the belief that torturing American kids for fun is okay is false, that people have hands, that cultivating excellent character and participating in excellent activities with others are deeply fulfilling while buzzing until old age cannot be, that some cultural traits in fact lead to misery while others promote happiness and justice, etc. There is a long list of truths, many of which are so deeply worth knowing that I am sorry I didn't start to uncover them until I hit my late 20s. To deny that they are either true or false and instead to feign to the "technicolor" was to postpone my access to deeply valuable knowledge of these truths.

I remain a Zen Buddhist. But it has its place. It surely has no bearing on whether bin Laden's moral values are right or not, and it certainly cannot undercut the evidence that you are now on the surface of the earth and not at the center of the sun. You mistake the glee of momentarily ignoring fundamental distinctions with the misleading idea that one should always ingore them and perpetually deny them. You forfeit your access to important facts, gaining nothing in return that you couldn't have anyway.

And, what Mark said.

"Islam is the religion of what was that again?"

Peas and Raisins? err...
Police and Ricin? ...oh, yeah...

Peace and Reason

Nice repiles back!

Mark,

I think we may be close to agreement. I do concur that there are some acts which are considered by most of the world to be wrong(or evil). Your statement about dogma and evil begating one another is also excellent.

I disagree with calling the desecration evil though. As I stated earlier:

"I certianly think that the desecration of any dead body is stupid and a throwback to animalistic 'territorial' urges. I don't think the poor french sod cared, but I'm sure it was a difficult thing for his surviving family."

It was a bad thing, a disgusting thing for those who hold reverence for the body of the deceased... but it doesn't seem to justify the word 'evil' to me. I think that the "short list" you mentioned would likely be the only things I, personally, would consider evil.

Jim,

I'm sorry that your particular view of the world was unsatisfying and I'm glad you identified a better reality-tunnel for yourself. I also hope you don't assume that what satisfies one must satisfy all, and what leaves one unsatisfied, fails to satisfy all (though your post certianly sounded that way).

I'm not really sure why you ask me if I believe what I have said is true. I do not think that what I said is true, I think that it is a good idea, it seems reasonable to me. Of course, when it comes to anyone's spiritual beliefs, can they point to evidence of truth, or only ideas that cause them to agree/believe?

Besides, does having evidence of truth actually prove anything?

Many who hate the US believe that they have 'evidence' of the truth of the Evil Great Satan. In their eyes its true, in the eyes of others its false. They see the attack on Iraq as an attack on Islam. To them, its clear as the sky being blue. I don't personally agree with them. But,.I could be wrong, the possibility exists that GW could be planning on the destruction of the God Forsaken Arab. I doubt it, but I do see their side... if you are raised in a controlled environment, where you are spoon-fed a particular dogma, then you're likely to believe things that people who were raised differently don't believe.

I grew up in a world of dogma. I was a good little christian boy and knew evil and good. I knew all about God, Christ and the Devil. I believed the Bible. Then, after I grew up, I began to look around at other belief systems, I looked at critical views of Christianity (including the Diegesis)and I began to change my views.

I am not anti-reality. I think that there is a 'Reality'. I think that Reality is a very big and complex thing that may be terribly difficult for any single person to grasp all of. Each of us have particular thought patterns that edit, interpert and modify what we see. Different religions and spiritualities, even the sciences may be attempts to explain, or put metaphors around the parts of reality experienced by the person or group.

So perhaps, each of us see segments of reality (like a bunch of horses with blinders). Some things may be true across all of those tunnels (say for example the likelyhood that jumping from a cliff will result in gravity spanking you). However, I don't think that anyone here has a full field view of Reality, and therein lies my posts. If all that my posting ever does is make people say "I don't agree but I see the idea", I'll be happy.

Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Poster of Distraction

Ratatosk,

Have you read George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia"? Highly recommended.

He worried (with cause) that there would be no true historical account of the Spanish Civil War, that there would be only competing narratives. He was there, he fought in the trenches and took a bullet in the neck to defeat the Spanish fascists. And yet the threat of mere competing narratives frightened him more than anything else. That was why he wrote Nineteen Eighty Four.

Michael,

Thanks for the tip. I enjoyed 1984 and Animal Farm. I'll have to give that one a read as well.

'Tosk

That comment intrigues me: "I don't believe in evil, at least not in the religious sense of the word." What do you think the religious sense of the word is? And do you think religious people would agree with your interpretation of what they believe?

In other words, what if you're wrong about what the religious sense of the evil is?

Leave a pound of hamburger in the sun for week. Observe it as rot sets in. Rot is a real thing.

Paraphrasing Augustine: In the same way, evil is a corruption of something good. Or it is when something that is good is deficient in such a way that it becomes destructive to itself and its surroundings.

Very broad, I know. But when a human being like Klebold looks at his fellow man as inferior and worthy of death, he is perverting the natural sense of self-worth and self-value into a mutated self-aggrandizement and contempt. This is an evil, which lead to evil acts.

BHC (Hope you don't mind the acronym),

In my view (please note this important preface), Religions (some but not all) tend to label anything that doesn't agree with their world view as Evil. For example, some Christians consider homosexuality evil because it is a perversion of Gods arrangement. They consider drugs evil, for some reason that no one has ever clarified (probably the same reason some of them consider alcohol evil).

Evil (religious connotation), in my opinion (which is meaningless in the grand scheme of things) is the way that many religions defines what they do not agree with. To keep a group of individuals in line with a belief system it is much easier to deal in simple dualities (Good/Evil). This is not a condemnation of this type of belief system. I just personally think that things are more complex.

I think that each religion, and those who follow it have the right to define what is evil to them. I would never hand a chillum to a christian who believed Marijuana to be evil. I would respect their belief of evil... but that doesn't mean I must also consider it evil, or even wrong.

For me, I split things that I disagree with into multiple categories:

I may believe that a robbing a bank is not a right way to act. I would say that I consider robbing a bank to be wrong (not evil).

I may say that I do not feel it is right to use an election system that doesn't have any way of recounting votes. I consider the current electronic systems from Dibold to be a wrong (not evil)solution.

I may say that the slaughter of innocent lives is a terrible act, one that denies Life, Liberty and Happiness. I consider the destruction of the World Trade Center to be Evil. (Because it has a direct and lasting impact on the lives of people who were otherwise uninvolved in a dispute).

The deaths of Iraqi civillians who were innocent (whatever percentage that may be) fits my idea of Evil, because it has a direct and lasting impact on the lives of people who were otherwise uninvolved in a dispute.

Many of the atrocities of war, be they by Nazis, Americans, Russians, Milosovich, or Saddam to be wrong, but I think that a number of those atrocities reach the level of evil, because they directly impact(usually by ending the life of) otherwise uninvolved innocent people.

The deaths of US Troops/Iraqi Troops/Afgan Troops, though, I consider sad, regrettable and tragic... but not evil. They are trained to fight, they voluntarily placed themselves in the millitary and they chose to put their life at risk.

"Rot is a real thing"

I don't disagree. There are real things in the universe... lots of them. I'm real, (unless someone has built a bot, or Michael is delusional and posting as a bunch of different people) you're real too. I don't believe that we all live in one giant hallucination. However, I don't think that ideas can be as easily slotted as physical items or states of items.

'Tosk

It is possible that an entire culture may be evil. If a culture embraces death as its theme, elevates suicide bombers who kill innocent civilians to the pinnacle of admiration, sends its children out clothed in explosive belts--sounds evil to me.

Whether some actions are evil certainly is questionable or may depend on unknown factors such as the motive of the perpetrator, but that does not mean that there are not some actions that are objectively evil. I reject entirely the notion that "evil" is in the eye of the beholder. Once we surrender the notion of universal morality, we have no basis for claiming that any particular act is either "right" or "wrong." After all, if you say something is wrong and I say it is ok, how can you tell me I am wrong?

This is an interesting discussion.
There's a culture in Irian Jaya that considers skillful treachery an honorable act. When they heard the Gospel narrative, Judas was the hero and Jesus was the dupe. ("Peace Child," Don Richardson)

In order for a universal morality to exist, there would need to be Personality and an Orderliness, a Mind behind the universe.

But a contingent, random universe would have no universal right or wrong. IMHO. In such a reality, all laws and ethics would be a social contract as a product of tradition and mutual agreement. Formality would follow function.

So then theism is the progenitor of the belief in a universal morality, and those that reject theism must needs reject the idea of a pre-existent morality. Therefore, morality would be (mostly) relative, a derivation of the specific needs of a culture.
Ah, but here's where it gets interesting. A "universal" morality, in the sense that all human beings would have it in common, not that it is an eternal thing, is somewhat evident. Those things that are common to all humanity seem to drive a universal sense of right and wrong: don't starve your kids, don't take others' things, etc.

When a code emerges, presuming to be empyrean in nature, which cuts agaisnt the grain of this common humanity, this could be called evil. If a unique society's law is contrary to the human "universal" law, then the other natural law takes precedence... but who decides it, who is Judge? They have their SOVEREIGN law, and we have ours. SO their law is evil only in relation to our law, not in relation to an identifiable but uncodified innnate law.
Specifically, the koranic injunction to beat disobedient wives: it is wrong by our lights, but is it evil in relation to a universal human truth? I would say yes, but how would I prove it?

So then, an atheistic worldview is challenged to provide an over-arching constant truth applicable over every sovereign nation: viz. the universal declaration of human rights... and the desired ascendancy of an international body. To create a worldwide human law that is higher than any culture's self-determinacy... so that you are able to scream "THAT's WRONG!!" when you see oppression or exploitation or slavery...
And we come full circle, because the world refuses to agree, really with what can be called exploitation or oppression!! What the "left" calls it and the right calls it are fairly disimilar.
Can't Someone give us Law? Something we can all agree on, that will tell us what to do, make us all equal but somehow still free, or free but somehow still equal? Where no one has to suffer for a free choice that hurts no one , even if nature or human tradition opposes it?
If the West attempts to establish this law, and it violates the koran, then in many eyes WE are oppressing, even though the things we are trying to supersede are themselves oppression (murder of infidels, dhimmitude, subjugation of females, ad nauseum).
So who gives the Law? The muslim shouts ALLAH!! The West says THE PEOPLE...and we are right back where we started.

This, my friends, is what the world is fighting about.

Brian Crouch

Tosk, re: desecration of bodies, and the effects on the loved ones of the deceased:

If you don't think the willful infliction of anguish and torment on the blameless is evil, your list is a lot shorter than mine.

Mark.

BHC,

That was a beautiful post.

Only one comment about it though:

You still split it into Dualities... A person believed in Creator/Judge or they were athiests. However, some religions do not require the Creator to be Judge. In fact, there are those who believe in Many Dieties, yet one law only, "Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law, Love in the law", or "As it harms none, do as thou wilt", also "Do as Thou Wilt", even "Everything is true, Everything is false, Everything is meaningless."

I am not saying that I agree or disagree with those beliefs. But, those beliefs do not necessarily require belief in a Diety to be a belief in Universal Laws of Good and Evil.

---------
(begin rant here)
I guess, in the end, thats the point of all of my posts. You all may sit here and be certian of your point-of-view. I will not say you are wrong (though I may say I disagree). However, it pains me to see people believe that they are right to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

Day after day, I read here and on Leftist sites, coverage of the same polls, the same stories, the same news, the same books and the same tired arguments. Many are convienced that their view is absolutely the only right, sane and patriotic way of looking at it. No one is willing to conceed that their party may have their heads up their rectums 50% of the time, and the other side may have the right idea 50% of the time. Hell, I'd be happy for more people to simply conceed that the other side might be right 15% of the time.

Tosk --

You are right to observe that a lot of people are confident in their respective positions, but what is the alternative? Certainty can cause people to make mistakes or act rashly, but uncertainty can just as easily lead to paralysis. Moreover, a person with no beliefs is perhaps the most dangerous person of all, because he can be led to perform acts of great evil.

For my part, if I didn't think my particular beliefs were correct, they wouldn't be my beliefs. I am prepared to be persuaded on various issues, and I am certainly willing to change my views based on personal experience. I suspect, however, that like most people I appear certain not because I am absolutely convinced that I am right but because I have already heard and rejected the counterarguments presented. The ideas that truly are "new" are few and far between.

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