Great find! Thanks MT. Good debate is so hard to come by these days...

Um, isn't this demonstrably false?

"Even before September 11 [Ashcroft] was trying to lower the wall between intelligence and law enforcement."

Possibly praktike. It is certainly falsifiable. It wouldn't surprise me if true, in the sense that it would increase his power, and like every Washington burueaucrat, Ashcroft wants to increase his power. As for terrorist security concerns, that is different.

I certainly agree that both administrations didn't take terrorism seriously enough. But I strongly doubt that a Gore administration would have done anything different prior to 9-11 (and the comment about a third Clinton term is just silly). Certainly there is no reason to believe that a Gore administration would have prevented 9-11. That's just plain fanciful.

Of course, the question is what a Gore administration would have done after 9-11. I get the strong feeling that they would not have been up for regime change. Gore would have demanded the turnover of Osama, and probably would have farted around with the UN quite a bit. Maybe he would have thrown money at Clarke's predator bomber scheme. He would not have done Iraq, that is certain. We would not have Camp X-Ray, which means hundreds of terrorists would still be on the loose.

I happen to think that Gore would have eventually been forced, if he didn't choosen to do so beforehand, to do what Bush did in Afghanistan. Circumstances would have led to that. I do agree about Iraq, and Camp X-Ray. Whether that would make him better or worse is something for Sci-Fi writers to speculate on.

an alternate present after 9/11:

President Al Gore would have asked Attorney General Jamie Gorelick if killing ANYONE in REVENGE was legal or MORAL or a good example to set... and time would have passed... and more time would have passed...

and the Space Needle would have been blown up, and Disneyland, and the New York stock Exchange, subways poisoned in three different cities and WHO DID IT? would not be settled BEYOND A RREASONABLE DOUBT because maybe it was Saudis but they deny it or maybe it was expatriate Moroccans with Spanish passports or maybe there were indications it was planned in a Detroit mosque but isn't that idea racist?

and so on. It doesn't much imagination to envision a very different outcome than the one we have so far.

Miklos,

Gore's entire career was a hawkish one. He only came out against regime-change at the last minute when he needed a new angle. He probably didn't believe a word out of his mouth because it contradicted his entire life leading up to that time.

Michael, I certainly followed Gore closely -- my sister met him after contributing to his campaign and said that off-stage he even had some charm (though keep in mind this was through very very partisan eyes). As I've gone into before, here or on Roger Simon, I thought Clinton should have resigned and felt rather betrayed when he did not. My idea was that he could have spun it as self-sacrifice for the good of the country and come out looking noble while at the same handing the 2000 election to Gore.

Such was the scenario I spun and it never came true. The last-minute push to solve Israel vs the Palestinians intervened, perhaps, with the vanity prize hanging there of a potential Nobel Peace Prize.

When Gore came out for Howard Dean and gave that mind-bogglingly crazed anti-war speech I lost all respect for him, and retrospectively rethought my conception of him, mistrusting every impression of him I had ever had before.

Maybe I see these things too emotionally. I now trust Bush vs the Islamofascist in an emotional way I never would have thought possible, and it's become a one-issue eleection for me.

Gay marriage and the rest can wait. Nothing else is an emergency. Maybe I'm wrong once again. But that's how I FEEL, and I feel it strongly. I feel an urgent, rational fear. I want revenge.

New Republic & National Review on the same page is truly Excellent. Too bad no comments there -- not sure you want to be a surrogate, here.

Jonathan seems delusional in thinking Gore (Clinton III) would have been stronger; he's right about the intensity of the summer warnings being significant; delusional again that a Clinton admin would focus more on terrorism -- unless you add some 25 "top, #1 priorities (what's one more, or five?)" to Clinton's speechifying -- or did Jonathan mean Gore?

Oh yeah, Jonathan likes to bad mouth Ashcroft, (slimily?) repeating slurs that Ashcroft has denied under oath. Of course, to Dems, "under oath" is no big deal, depending on what "is" is. Anyonomous rumors, "discovered", are more credible.

Cutting gov't counterterrorism is the real meat, and though it's just one bite, it's not nothing. Clinton's 8 years of cutting needs to be compared.

The big failure of Bush, Clinton, and Bush II is the lack of more Arabic trained speakers; and that is STILL a problem.

Pat Curley "...I strongly doubt that a Gore administration would have done anything different prior to 9-11."

I agree. The difference is that with a President Gore we wouldn't have had a measly little 9-11 Commission. Instead, de-facto House Speaker DeLay would have put arranged Judiciary Committee hearings on impeachment, or at least censure, which would have been held in 2002, not 2004. When it comes to scoring political points off bipartisan national security failures, Republicans don't fuck around.

Markus: House Speaker DeLay would have put arranged Judiciary Committee hearings on impeachment

Yeah, I think he would have done that too.

When it comes to scoring political points off bipartisan national security failures, Republicans don't fuck around.

Example(s) please?

Gosh,

How bad does it have to be for the senior editor of TNR misuse "principles" when he meant "principals". I thought that was what editors were for...

Eric -- examples of Republican hardball that come to mind include the attack ads in the 2002 election cycle in which images of Max Cleland and Tom Daschle, both of whom voted for the Afghanistan and Iraq war resolutions, as well as the Partriot Act, would morph into images of Osama Bin Laden. Another would be the way Clinton was blamed for Somalia even though it was Bush 41 who originally committed the troops.

Markus Rose:

Well, I didn't note any attempts at impeachment in your examples, nor anything really that wasn't typical partisan politics. Your implication seemed to be that Republicans are somehow meaner and nastier and the examples you give certainly don't show that. Nowadays, we've got respected Democrats (Howard Dean, Wesley Clarke) saying that Bush knew about 9/11 in advance, Ted Kennedy saying that Iraq is another Viet Nam, John Kerry saying that the decision to liberate Iraq was the worst foreign policy mistake in US history etc. etc., none of the examples you gave are even comparable to any of that in terms of over-the-top rhetoric, deceitfulness, and putting partisan gain above national security.

Eric -- the way I've experienced it here in Washington, Democrats were pretty sincere about standing behind the President on foreign policy issues from 9/11/01 to the day after the November 2002 elections. Then they took the gloves off. I can't see Republicans giving Gore the same respect. Now the discourse is bad on both sides. Howard Dean and Tom DeLay are both convinced that those who disagree with them are evil. Difference is that Dean is sitting home in Vermont today, while Tom DeLay is one of the most powerful people in Washington.

All this talk of "meanness" is misleading. Republicans aren't any more mean than Democrats, they just tend to know how to hit harder.

When Democrats go partisan, they bitch and whine. When Republicans do it, they're kicking your ass in. Dems are heavier on the rhetoric. Reps are all action. Seems to me.

Yep...Tom Delay. Now there's a guy who doesn't fuck around. The Democrats have no Tom Delay.

I just want to state, for the record, that while this "Opinion Duel" is indeed interesting it is hardly the stuff of ideological counterweights. To me, and I think this one is pretty obvious if you know the two magazines, there's no comparison.

The New Republic is a nominally neo-lib centrist magazine. Frequently contributing editors include Andrew Sullivan and Lawrence F. Kaplan. They recently featured a Shelby Steele entry. They're damn near as critical of the modern Democratic Party as they are the Republicans. They rarely attack mainstream Dems from the Left. If you had to gauge the ideological span and scope of the magazine, I'd say it runs from the American Prospect to the Weekly Standard, spending most of the time in DLC territory. As a long-time reader, I've lately often wondered if they will inevitably refuse to endorse John Kerry when all is said and done.

The National Review, on the other hand, is just about the most partisan conservative Republican magazine in wide circulation. Though they're a hell of alot saner than the folks over at The Nation, they tend to ring as loud an anti-moderate tone. They run articles from the likes of William Buckley Jr. and John Derbyshire, sell books from Hannity and Coulter and Savage, and tend to attack the Republican Party from the Right. They've led the "Kill Alan Spector" brigade in recent months. No whiff of centrism, here.

I like Ramesh Ponnuru. I rarely ever agree with the guy, but he's no loon: He comes from the non-loon wing of his magazine. I love Jonathon Chait: He comes from the non-conservative wing of his. This is no "liberal vs. conservative" showdown. The New Republic is Totten-territory. The National Review is Limbaugh-land.

This "Opinion Duel" is a duel between a moderate DLCer and a mainstream conservative Republican, lest anyone be mistaken.

So Grant, actually having an opinion and coherent worldview is insanity?

"They run articles from the likes of William Buckley, Jr."

For some reason, that's just funny as hell.

Kinda like saying, "The Paris Review runs articles from the likes of George Plimpton."

LOL

EX...

Why is it you apparently think Centrists don't have a coherent worldview or opinions of their own? If you read the New Republic once in a while, you'd realize their worldview is entirely coherent. No mushy centrism, there.

MATT WARD...

Laugh all you want, man. Looking back, I probably should have just stuck with Derbyshire and left it at that. Kinda says it all.

In the end, though, you have to admit I've got a point. The New Republic welcomes debate, is the least partisan editorial magazine I've ever heard of, and will surprise you from time to time. The National Review, on the other hand, well, the National Review sells Ann Coulter books. Nuff said.

Marcus & Michael, the impeachment talk is just plain silly. I know that a lot of Democrats are still bitter about the Clinton impeachment, but can't we MoveOn? Nobody suggested impeachment for the embassy bombings or the Cole bombing, and if they'd suggested it for 9-11 I suspect that they would have gotten their butts handed to them in 2002 for not being serious (much as the Democrats did that year).

"The National Review sells Ann Coulter books. Nuff said."

Grant: You sure you are not a mush-head? Keep fighting for your partisan, biased world-view of non-partisanship and non-bias.

Bear in mind that National Review also FIRED Anne Coulter after her utterly stupid remarks following 9-11. Like any other website trying to pull revenue, they peddle the books they think will sell based on audience demographics, so the fact that they sell her book is't the ringing endorsement of its content one might think.

Ponnru is one of the primary contributors to National Review Online, which trends far more to center than the dead tree mag. Maybe in terms of this debate, we should consider it TNR vs. NRO, instead.

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