April 19, 2004

None of the Above

I watched John Kerry for a few minutes on Tim Russertís Meet the Press and all I could do was sigh. Why did the Democrats have to pick this guy? No one really likes him much whatever they think of George W. Bush.

I donít like John Kerry, but I donít hate the man either. I'm one of the very few people who feels exactly the same way about President Bush.

I agree with Roger L. Simon about almost everything, and I agree with Andrew Sullivan slightly more often than not. Today is no exception.

Roger said ďI am not in a panic over the election the way some are.Ē The same goes for me for mostly the same reason. He quotes from a piece in the LA Times by Moisťs NaŪm, editor in chief of Foreign Policy magazine, about how history makes a president more than the other way around.

All recent U.S. presidents have learned that despite their immense power, they remain at the mercy of uncontrollable global forces, which can render their personal views and campaign promises largely irrelevant. The Clinton campaign's famous dictum, "It's the economy, stupid," proved a better election-year slogan than a predictor of how often international turmoil would distract his administration from domestic issues. Bush reneged nearly as quickly on his campaign promise to adopt a "humble" foreign policy, wary of active foreign engagements and nation-building efforts.
Thatís basically right. George Bush has certainly done a 180 on foreign policy since the election. He started out as a paleoconservative Buchananite and morphed into an aggressive Wilsonian hawk. He began as a shrugging isolationiast and ended up in the same place I was led to by Bosnia.

Andrew Sullivan is likewise soft in his opposition to Kerry.

Here he is in an interview with Timothy Perry.

I'm encouraged by some of the things Kerry has been saying recentlyÖIn general I trust Bush more than Kerry in this war - far more. But I'm open to persuasion and don't think of myself as blindly in support of a person. If another person can better achieve our goals, the beauty of a democracy, unlike a dictatorship, is that we can change leaders quite easily.
Iíd like to warm up to Kerry if for no other reason than that he might be our next president. If I donít vote for him and he wins anyway, Iím not going to be one of those people who are sure to freak out and say itís the end of us. In fact, Iíll swing around to being one of his defenders by default. I learned something by starting out as a Bush-hater and later deciding I was wasting both my energy and my time. Kerry may govern well, or at least passably. Clinton wasnít half as bad as his worst detractors said he was, and neither is Bush. Kerry probably wouldnít be either.

Still, I find myself more or less back to where I was during the last election when I voted for Ralph Nader. I was a paleoliberal then who was mad at the neolibs in the Democratic Party. Now Iím a neoliberal centrist annoyed with the paleos. I guess Iím just hard to please.

I donít care for Ralph Nader as much as I used to (to say the least), but thereís one thing I really do (still) like about him. He wants an option on the ballot for ďNone of the Above.Ē I know itís not likely to ever happen, at least not at the presidential level. But I like the fact that he brings it up anyway. I want to call do-overs. Iíd like to see a Republican like John McCain run against a Democrat like Harold Ford. I would remain a centrist if we could have such a contest, but a happy one.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at April 19, 2004 12:22 AM
Comments

There's even the silver lining that, with Kerry suporting democracy in Iraq as President, the press might start acting a lot more responsibly, and try to help the Kerry Pres. to "win" a real democracy, there.

And then the Reps can scream about the huge deficits and maybe even get rid of some of the waste.

Slovakia just elected a new Pres., another old commie. This time, instead of the horrible, terrible Meciar (pronounced Mechiar), it is Gasparovic (like Gasparovich) -- who was Meciar's right hand man in 1994-98, while the state was privatizing so much into friendly hands.

The coalition had 3 candidates, none of whom made it past the first round; the main one took third; he was a old commie too. As was the current Pres. Schuster.

Posted by: Tom Grey at April 19, 2004 01:50 AM

MJT,

As far as I'm concerned, anybody who makes a statement such as this is not fit to be the President of the United States:

Senator, I will say this. I think that politically, historically, the one thing that people try to do, that society is structured on as a whole, is an attempt to satisfy their felt needs, and you can satisfy those needs with almost any kind of political structure, giving it one name or the other. In this name it is democratic; in other it is communism; in others it is benevolent dictatorship. As long as those needs are satisfied, that structure will exist.

http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/jkerrytestimony.asp

For some people, youthful indiscretions involved getting drunk a lot or doing too many bong hits. John Kerry's youthful indiscretions involved being a communist sympathizer and denouncing his own country. And his sympathies are manifested in his Congressional voting record of gutting our intelligence and military services, and being an apologist for Soviet puppet regimes like the Sandinistas.

John Kerry is a disgrace and his administration would be a disaster. Even if he has discarded his past views, his supporters haven't. If elected he will either have to govern according to the interests of the nation, or the desires of the intellectual base of Democratic party who believe that America must subordinate its sovereignty to international institutions.

Kerry's dilemma is illustrated by this exchange at a recent campaign rally:

At a question-and-answer session at City College campus in Harlem, semi-retired math teacher Walter Daum accused Kerry -- a onetime anti-war activist -- of supporting an "imperialist war" in Iraq.

"You say you are a stark difference from George Bush," said the 64-year-old Daum. "People hate George Bush, but by the end of your presidency, they'll hate you for the same thing."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/14/kerry.iraq/

This is what I've been saying all along. The left doesn't hate Bush for anything Bush has done. They hate America because they are a bunch of God-damned transnational socialists and they project that hatred onto Bush. They will continue to hate America after Bush is gone and they will project that hatred onto Kerry as well if he acts in America's interests. Right now, they are willing to vote for Kerry because in the past he was one of their own. Kerry has never repudiated his past. And his proposal to put the thoroughly corrupt and failed UN in charge in Iraq doesn't give me any reason to believe that he has changed.

Posted by: HA at April 19, 2004 04:07 AM

I dread Kerry, but like on every Inauguration Day I'll same the same prayer I always say. "God, let this man become our finest President ever." I won't vote for John Kerry, but if he's elected I'll sure root for him.

Good column.

Posted by: spc67 at April 19, 2004 04:32 AM

MJT,

Here is what our enemies in Tehran think:

The Tehran leadership is also certain that John Kerry, if elected, will abandon Bush's plans for a "democratic" Middle East. "The United States has become vulnerable," Rafsanjani told his cheering audience in Tehran. "The Americans do not know which way to turn."

Behind the scenes of revolt in parts of Iraq lies the broader picture of the war that various brands of Islamism have waged against the United States for almost a quarter of a century.

Tehran leaders believe that the U.S. defeat in Vietnam enabled China to establish itself as the rising power in Asia. They hope that a U.S. defeat in Iraq will give the Islamic Republic a similar opportunity to become what Rafsanjani calls "the regional superpower."

The Khomeinist mullahs believe that an American defeat in Iraq will destabilize all Arab regimes, leaving the Islamic Republic as the only power around which a new status quo could be built in the region. "Here is our opportunity to teach the Americans a lesson," Rafsanjani said.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/22782.htm

Once again, our enemies know us better than we know them, and even better than we know ourselves. People like Kerry were responsible for our failure in Vietnam. They may end up being responsble for our failure in Iraq. And the consequences that will dwarf the mere millions of dead, displaced and exiled that followed the victory of the North Vietnamese.

Kerry is saying a lot of the right things at the moment. But with his record of saying anything and flip-flopping to get elected, what will he say and do in 2008 in order to get the votes of people like Walter Daum?

Posted by: HA at April 19, 2004 04:36 AM

MJT,

And Kerry's only substantive difference with Bush so far has been to put the UN in charge. Here is what you get when you put the UN in charge:

PRISTINA, Serbia and Montenegro (Reuters) - United Nations (news - web sites) police in Kosovo are holding four Jordanian members of the force following a gunbattle with U.S. police in which two American women prison officers and a Jordanian male were killed.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20040418/wl_nm/serbiamontenegro_kosovo_shooting_dc

What happens when you put the UN in charge? Americans murdered by Arabs. Same old, same old.

Posted by: HA at April 19, 2004 04:42 AM

He started out as a paleoconservative Buchananite...

Man and I thought I could be a little over the top. That's like calling a reasonable liberal a Kucinichite because they share the corner of one issue (actually I think it is worse)... as a Jew I am kind of bothered by the reference.

That being said I agree with much of your premise. And I suggest Kerry hide behind the soft tosses of Chris Matthews. I thought Kerry looked horrible and terribly exposed. Russert looked at times quite frankly as if he backed off a bit to show mercy. Kerry really does have much to answer for. I don’t know how he can escape it. Andrew and others can take a wait and see approach, I have seen enough. For one to accept Kerry as up to the level he would need to be to perform, well let me just say that this, that would be to bet against history. I’ll leave that to others.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 05:02 AM

They have "None of the Above" on the Ballot in Russia and in one of the Provinces he won an election. ;-)

Posted by: Daniel Kauffman at April 19, 2004 05:18 AM

http://www.freeserbia.net/Articles/2004/None.html

NY Times - March 21st, 2004

Only in Russia: 'None of the Above' Is on Ballot, and Wins

By STEVEN LEE MYERS

ULYANOVSK, Russia, March 21 - Russia's democracy may well be faltering, but its elections still allow the ultimate protest vote: "against all." In most races it attracts a few percent of contrary votes. Here in this faded industrial city on the Volga, it won. Twice.

Posted by: Daniel Kauffman at April 19, 2004 05:21 AM

Now that is a brilliant idea. I why don't we have something like that, it'd give people like Grant a place to go. I wonder what percentage "none of the above" would have gotten in the last election if it had been on the ballot?

Posted by: sam at April 19, 2004 05:31 AM

spc67
"I dread Kerry, but like on every Inauguration Day I'll same the same prayer I always say. "God, let this man become our finest President ever.""

I generally say something like "Please don't screw things up too badly". Yours is a lot more optimistic.

Posted by: sam at April 19, 2004 05:33 AM

spc67 An optimist thinks we live in the best of all possible worlds.

A pessimist is afraid the optimist is right. ;-)

Posted by: Daniel Kauffman at April 19, 2004 05:40 AM

I don't know sam, people tried to turn many of those no-votes into votes whenever they could in Florida.

In all seriousness none of the above does exist, it is called a no-vote. This happens all the time.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 05:46 AM

Samuel,
"In all seriousness none of the above does exist, it is called a no-vote. This happens all the time."

Really, I didn't know you could do that in the US, you cant to it here in Britain. Well, you can spoil your ballot but that generally doesn't hve the same effect.

Posted by: sam at April 19, 2004 06:03 AM

Sam, absolutely they can in fact many people will vote in Presidential elections only (foolish to me). They will vote the Presidential "top of the ticket", perhaps also for Congressman and Senator, then proceed to ignore every other part of the ballot (judges, local state offices, etc.) However no vote can't win. If 1000 people go to the polls and 600 no-vote on a level, whoever recieves the most of the remaining 400 votes wins, as they are the only considered votes cast on that particular part of the ballot.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 06:15 AM

"However no vote can't win."

Now that's a shame. A no-vote could probably do a better job than some of the people currently in the House or the Senate.

Posted by: sam at April 19, 2004 06:39 AM

Michael,

I really appreciate your "open thoughts" style in mentioning what motivates you. It's interesting and educational to see what drives your thinking and I find it helps to drive my thinking.

Over the last couple of years, I, like you, have converted to become a swing voter. Our paths to this place differ but most of the conclusions are the same. Today I find that partisanship is the modern equivalence of superstition. It causes people to give candidates qualities they don't have. It causes people to believe in things that don't exist. It makes them believe they understand the world while tricking them into believing things that are far from true. It makes them feel they have more control than they really do.

Posted by: Undertoad at April 19, 2004 06:50 AM

They hate America because they are a bunch of God-damned transnational socialists and they project that hatred onto Bush.

These people are "citizens of the world," and damn proud of it. It makes them better than the rest of us yokels and our antiquated notions about country and flag. But never, ever, EVER...question their patriotism.

Posted by: David at April 19, 2004 07:31 AM

Partisanship as Superstition

Many partisans are superstitious, but not all. There's a difference between believing your man and party can do no wrong, and believing that though imperfect, your man and party stand for the same basic values that you consider to be important, and are therefore worth being partisan about. Is the GOP perfect? Hell no, the notion is ridiculous. It comes down to competing worldviews, and you HAVE TO CHOOSE which of them represents yours. Personally, I'd rather a bunch gap-toothed yokels (as you edumacated people consider us conservatives) to inherit this land than the nihilistic sophisticates and the "transnational socialists" to.

Posted by: David at April 19, 2004 08:00 AM

Well David, I'd argue that your superstition is that your party of choice is going to really represent your viewpoint accurately in what they do in the real world.

I know they talk a good game but if you really hate socialism you might consider how this is the point in history where the Rs embraced it for political purposes. I'm guessing that, 10 years ago, you hoped for a combination of Republican House AND Senate AND Presidency so that the speedy rush towards socialism could be slowed to a trickle. So what a surprise was it to you to see them speed it up? OBoy, now that we have power let's expand Medicare, start planning a Mars shot, embrace Federalism, put church-based charities on the dole, etc. etc. Is this what you wanted?

In the end, only what actually happens counts, not what they all said while they were doing it.

Posted by: Undertoad at April 19, 2004 08:16 AM

I know centrists, conservatives and flaming transnational socialists who wish they could vote for McCain or Giuliani. Michael’s right – we need to change the system, find some method that will allow the best candidates to run.

Posted by: mary at April 19, 2004 08:17 AM

"None of the above," is not an option in these times. Despite our grander wishes, choices need to be made and, despite Kerry's recent rhetoric on Iraq (such as his WashPost op-ed), I believe he is fundamentally wrong at the basic question of how do we solve the problem of terrorism.

I find myself often debating people who ask "Why don't we just get out of the Middle East? Why don't we just leave them alone and they'll leave us alone?" My answer has consistently been that if I thought this would solve the problem, if I thought getting out of Iraq would end the terror threat, I would be first in line demanding it. But I don't think that would solve the problem, much as I wish it would. My point?

Kerry has said we can't pull out of Iraq because, due to Bush's arrogant, inept, etc. foreign policy, we are in there now and it would harm our credibility if we left, that "[i]t is a matter of national honor and trust." I think he misses the point. In truth, we can't pull out of Iraq and we can't pull out of the wider war on terror because to do so would present an unacceptable risk to our security. It isn't about American image, but American security. I don't believe Kerry understands this. As president, I don't think he would yank out the troops (as say the Spanish socialists have). But his heart and, more important, his head isn't in this fight. And in this war, we are either on offense or defense. September 11 showed us what playing defense meant. It's just that some people refuse to acknowledge that message.

Posted by: Hacksaw at April 19, 2004 08:18 AM

My take on the election is that I have to vote for the candidate who, in my opinion, understandes what to do to make my country safer.

I truly dislike Bush's social policies. But I have heard nothing that makes me think Kerry understands that trends in technology and Islamic fascism make something far worse than 9/11 very possible. And the exchange with Daum, where he talks about putting the UN in charge ASAP in Iraq, is truly mind boggling considering the history of UN management.

KERRY: Yes, but...but...but the point is this, sir. You're not listening to me.
DAUM: Oh, yes, I am.
KERRY: Well, then you haven't, frankly, listened, because in fact the course that I have proposed is to you turn over to the United Nations the full responsibility for the transformation of the government and for the reconstruction.

Sorry, can't vote for that. Just can't.

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 19, 2004 10:07 AM

Whoa! A Kerry inaguration & U.N. 'capitulation' is not only a 50/50 proposition, but 8+ months away!

Let's see what Bush is doing TODAY w/the U.N., shall we?

"BAGHDAD: Lakhdar Brahimi, the United Nations' special envoy to Iraq, ended his visit here last week with veiled criticism of the US-led coalition and recommended a transition plan that reshapes the American vision of who should take power June 30.

Given poor relations between the US and the UN, Mr. Brahimi's comments might have drawn a stinging rebuke from Washington. The envoy even described fighting in Fallujah as a form of "collective punishment" pursued by US forces, a highly emotive phrase in the Arab world usually used to describe Israeli actions against Palestinians.

But the Bush administration thanked him;
White House Press spokesman Scott McClellan said Brahimi was "helping to move forward on our strategy."

Thank you Sir, May I have another?? LOL

It's the Bush Administration which is empowering the U.N. today -- let's get that much straight, shall we?

So, if Kerry does win, he'll only be CONTINUING the U.N. policy ENACTED by Bush.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0419/p06s02-woiq.html

Maybe if Bush had balls, he'd leave the CPA in charge until the Iraqi January elections? and why isn't he?

Those are the questions that need addressing today.

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 10:15 AM

""And, Mr. President, who will we be handing the Iraqi government over to on June 30th?

BUSH: We'll find that out soon. That's what Mr. Brahimi is doing. He's figuring out the nature of the entity we'll be handing sovereignty over.""

Bush - I don't know yet -- I need the U.N. to tell me?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9488-2004Apr13_4.html

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 10:37 AM

Well Philly, if Bush turns management of Iraq over to the UN, guess I'll be voting for the Libertarian candidate. That would be the most palatable protest vote for me.

My guess is that this is just politics. If it makes the UN envoy happy to talk, let him. Me, I didn't read anything into the CSM story other than a "Thank you for your input" from the Administration. But then maybe that's just what I want to see.

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 19, 2004 10:53 AM

SAM...

Nice to know I get mentioned when I'm not around. Makes me kind of feel like some kind of celebrity.

That having been said, I'd hate to vote for "none of the above". There's just something disturbing in the idea of showing up to do your civic duty and then refusing to vote for an actual candidate. Why vote at all, then? I mean, really, you could say it's sending a message but looking at your ballot, who the hell would know what that message is? I'd sooner write-in Joe Lieberman than "none of the above". No, I take that back, if I wrote in anybody's name it would have to be Scoop Jackson.

Michael's dead-on with the McCain/Ford comment. Ideally, I'd like to see them start their own Centrist party and run on a unified ticket. The two of them have far more in common with each other than either of them do with Bush or Kerry.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 19, 2004 10:57 AM

Philly

How outrageous of this President to not answer that question! Man how much gnat straining can one engage in? That is all you've got? Compared to all else going on that is it? He may have very good reasons for not answering the question. I know you haven’t displayed a real good reason for caring why.

Tell me Philly, in lieu of the food for oil cover-up, do you still place the blame on this President for the lack of multilateral support in this War? That will answer a lot for me and what your true priorities are.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 10:58 AM

VIVA SCOOP!!! LONG LIVE THE COLD WAR DEMS!

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 19, 2004 10:58 AM

Okay...let me be a little more realistic:

SOMEONE PLEASE REVIVE THE COLD WAR DEMS.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 19, 2004 11:01 AM

Mr. Kerry, you, sir, are an ass.

Thank you Tim, you may be right.

Posted by: Jay at April 19, 2004 11:02 AM

And did Totten just use the l-word in describing himself, again? I think he did.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 19, 2004 11:03 AM

Well, Bush just appointed Negroponte, our Ambassador to the U.N., as our 1st U.S. Ambassador to Iraq -- effective July 1, 2004.

Listen to what Bush says, and watch what he does; if your criteria is non U.N.-intervention, then neither Bush is NOT your man :)

Re: the U.N.

But don't be bashing Kerry for what he might do
8 months from now, AND simultaeneouly give Bush a 'free pass' for his U.N. entaglement today.

If you don't like the U.N., that's fine -- but be intellectually honest and acknowledge that BOTH Bush SR. and Bush JR. have done more to empower the U.N. than Clinton ever did -- Clinton NEVER went to the U.N., after all -- not w/Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc.

The Bushes are Poster Boys for the U.N. -- lol

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 11:05 AM

Anyone suspect Harold Ford might just be in the running for Kerry's VP pick? I hadn't thought about it up until now, but it makes alot of sense. He's moderate. He's young (only 33, I believe). He's from the Midwest. He's good looking. And he's black.

Kerry'd be killing about a dozen and a half birds with one stone, this route.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 19, 2004 11:22 AM

Here's what Bush should do.

1. Hand over political power after June 30.
2. Pull American troops from Iraqi cities and leave it up to the Iraqis to govern themselves.
3. The American troops will stay in Iraq but at their bases to protect oil interests.

Problem solved. We lose no troops, and we get the oil, and the Iraqis can't do a damned thing about it.

Posted by: JJ Walker at April 19, 2004 11:30 AM

""Tell me Philly, in lieu of the food for oil cover-up, do you still place the blame on this President for the lack of multilateral support in this War? That will answer a lot for me and what your true priorities are.""

No, Sam, I didn't then, and don't now ---nation's operate out of their own self-interests, and it's coming out that France & Russia were elbow deep in this scandal -- that was THEIR self-interest.

AND YET - riddle me this Sam -- WHY is Bush, now knowing of this scandal, NOT criticizing the U.N.??

Doesn't knowing about this scandal, make Bush's actions even MORE outrageous??

As far as I know, Bush is ACTIVELY IGNORING this scandal -- if I'm wrong, please cite. (All I see are Fox & the WSJ covering it)

Is ANYONE in Bush's Administration railing against this U.N. scandal? anyone?

It is Bush who is actively pulling the U.N. ever deeper into Iraq -- isn't it?

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 11:31 AM

Harold Ford Jr....

Member of the House Congressional Black Caucus. Member of the "Blue Dog" Democrats. Also the only member of Congress (as of 2002) to make People Magazine's list of the "50 sexiest people". Turns 35 in May of 2004.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 19, 2004 11:35 AM

Make that May of 2005. My bad.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 19, 2004 11:37 AM

Grant - me thinks you have to be 35 to be VP, which rules out Ford.

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 11:45 AM

Shorter Mark Poling:

"Even though I support the war in Iraq, I'd vote for someone who believes in cutting and running before I'd vote for a Democrat."

You're a hack, Mark Poling.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 19, 2004 11:46 AM

Oh, come on!

Kerry will survive at least until May!!!

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 19, 2004 11:48 AM

Grant - are you addressing me? Upthread, there was postulation re Ford being VP - I'm pointing out that Ford would not qualify b/c he's too young.

"To hold the office, the Vice President must satisfy the same constitutional qualifications as the President; that is, the Vice President must be a natural-born citizen of the United States, 35 years of age, and a resident of the United States for 14 years."

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 11:59 AM

Grant,
"SOMEONE PLEASE REVIVE THE COLD WAR DEMS."

At this point in time its looking like the only way to revive the Cold War Dems is with a Dr Frankenstein style reanimation, with lightning and a bolt through the neck. Of course, if anybody has any potential candidates for the role of current Cold War Dems, please point them out. I'd rather not see the Dems end up like this.

Posted by: sam at April 19, 2004 12:14 PM

Philly,

Because the left in America and Europe trust the UN more than the US, Bush is compelled to look for some type of UN blessing to the transition. This transition would lend (in these people's eyes) legitimacy to the new Iraqi government. That new government, in conjunction with the US, would in effect be running Iraq.

This of course is a far cry from Kerry's suggestion that the UN be empowered to run Iraq. A notion that fails both in principle, give the UN's poor record in administering other nations (see the Balkans) as well as in reality since the UN shows no inclination of wanting to return to Iraq let alone administer it.

Posted by: Hacksaw at April 19, 2004 12:37 PM

Hipocrit, thank you.

You want to put money on Bush doing a "cut and run"? If you do I'll want to see your definition of "cut and run" first, because the contents of the overhead compartment have been known to shift during flight from reality.

(Remember when Bush was bad because he wasn't taking orders from the UN? Now the ABB crowd is trying to tar him for giving the UN too much respect. How they do that without major spinal injury is beyond me.)

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 19, 2004 12:37 PM

And just to set the record straight, I'm not thrilled to be voting for Bush; I would have voted Lieberman in an instant.

This year's election is bad versus worse, and I'm sticking with bad.

Maybe in '08, the Democratic Party will figure out how to nominate a responsible adult for the Presidential election.

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 19, 2004 12:46 PM

Philly

I know moral equivocation when I see it…

No, Sam, I didn't then, and don't now ---nation's operate out of their own self-interests, and it's coming out that France & Russia were elbow deep in this scandal -- that was THEIR self-interest.

Well, what you call self interest I call FLAT OUT EVIL! Does evil exist in your world or just self interests? Since I am not a War-Liberal but a moralistic Neo-Conservative now, let me just say first, you disqualify yourself from judging things on moral grounds. Just phrasing the above the way you did is retractable as far as I am concerned because you have revealed yourself as willing to argue things on unequal moral grounds. With that in mind what does your next question matter?

--

AND YET - riddle me this Sam -- WHY is Bush, now knowing of this scandal, NOT criticizing the U.N.??

That is no riddle. And why should you care in your Machiavellian world? He is just acting in our self interest, that's all. Philly you give up too much to answer it any differently because it wouldn’t matter anyway, you proved that above.

--

Doesn't knowing about this scandal, make Bush's actions even MORE outrageous??

Absolutely NOT! It takes a real twisting of any reason to go from your original quote to the morals being displayed here, that’s OK I am used to it. You remind me of people that defended Clinton for provable illegal actions, but then cried about Arnold Swartzegger for mere allegations that were nothing by comparison. Why? Not because these critics cared, but because they knew the more principled Republicans would care. Philly this is called cynicism, and you are practicing it big-time. I’ll make this above question and President your own personal riddle. You don’t seek knowledge that is for sure. This President has done nothing outrageous, but since he has you befuddled, I’ll give you a hint, it is called giving people enough rope to hang themselves. Philly is it lost on you that this scandal is past, BECAUSE OF THE VERY ACTIONS OF THIS PRESIDENT? Is it really that difficult? Or is your animosity so great that you will go from the afore mentioned gnat straining, to swallowing the whole damn camel.

--

As far as I know, Bush is ACTIVELY IGNORING this scandal -- if I'm wrong, please cite. (All I see are Fox & the WSJ overing it)… Is ANYONE in Bush's Administration railing against this U.N. scandal? anyone?... It is Bush who is actively pulling the U.N. ever deeper into Iraq -- isn't it?

I’ll just say this. The scandal is not being ignored by the President, and as mentioned above it was STOPPED by this President. As for the UN? He is keeping his enemies close, looking to keep them in his sight and occupy their time. This President is more patient than you or I, he was not a poker champion by accident. He is smarter then you give him credit. The Iraqi’s know, he is making them face their accusers, pay penance, and show there shame. The media however is ignoring this scandal, I guarantee Bush is not, don’t assume too much. You brought forward interpretations you failed to justify.

This poker playing champion always plays with his cards close to the vest. Get used to that frustration, don’t limit his knowledge or understanding of things to only what you can see or understand. Don’t expect him to announce all of his intentions.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 12:46 PM

Still ignoring Bush's current actions -- so now he's working w/the U.N. to appease Old Europe and the Socialists on the Left?? LOL The Right seems to want it both ways too ;)

I thought he might be working w/the U.N. to get more NATO involvement -- (even though Clinton didn't need the U.N. for NATO's involvement in Kosovo, for example.)

Look, the way I see it, Kerry's campaign's rhetoric doesn't matter -- WHY?

Because Iraq will hold its first elections in January 2005, and the Iraqis will then be in full control, won't they? -- So, if the IRAQIS want the U.N. out -- they can order them out; conversely, they can continue Bush's plan of U.N. intervention in Iraq, or tailor it to suit their needs; either way -- come January 2005, it's up to them, isn't it?

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 12:50 PM

JOHN KERRY, PATHETIC.

With Tim Russert this morning:

RUSSERT: You committed atrocities.

KERRY: Where did all that dark hair go, Tim? That’s a big question for me. You know, I thought a lot, for a long time, about that period of time, the things we said, and I think the word is a bad word. I think it’s an inappropriate word. I mean, if you wanted to ask me have you ever made mistakes in your life, sure. I think some of the language that I used was a language that reflected an anger. It was honest, but it was in anger, it was a little bit excessive.

RUSSERT: You used the word “war criminals.”

KERRY: Well, let me just finish. Let me must finish. It was, I think, a reflection of the kind of times we found ourselves in and I don’t like it when I hear it today. I don’t like it, but I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn’t talking about the soldiers and the soldiers’ blame, and my great regret is, I hope no soldier—I mean, I think some soldiers were angry at me for that, and I understand that and I regret that, because I love them. But the words were honest but on the other hand, they were a little bit over the top. And I think that there were breaches of the Geneva Conventions. There were policies in place that were not acceptable according to the laws of warfare, and everybody knows that. I mean, books have chronicled that, so I’m not going to walk away from that. But I wish I had found a way to say it in a less abrasive way.

RUSSERT: But, Senator, when you testified before the Senate, you talked about some of the hearings you had observed at the winter soldiers meeting and you said that people had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and on and on. A lot of those stories have been discredited, and in hindsight was your testimony...

KERRY: Actually, a lot of them have been documented.

RUSSERT: So you stand by that?

KERRY: A lot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have, Tim. The problem is that’s not where the focus should have been. And, you know, when you’re angry about something and you’re young, you know, you’re perfectly capable of not—I mean, if I had the kind of experience and time behind me that I have today, I’d have framed some of that differently. Needless to say, I’m proud that I stood up. I don’t want anybody to think twice about it. I’m proud that I took the position that I took to oppose it. I think we saved lives, and I’m proud that I stood up at a time when it was important to stand up, but I’m not going to quibble, you know, 35 years later that I might not have phrased things more artfully at times.

Posted by: David at April 19, 2004 01:13 PM

correction: with Tim Russert yesterday.

Posted by: David at April 19, 2004 01:13 PM

Hipocrite,

Are you a nine-year old? How about growing up a little? See if you can act twelve. I think you can if you try really hard.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 19, 2004 01:25 PM

David

I saw Kerry on Russert as well, pretty devastating. Could you imagine if our left wing mainstream press went after this story with the same vigor it went after the Bush’s National Guard Service? Well they won’t because it would destroy Kerry’s chances. Oh the refining fire a Republican must go through!

In the long run the Republicans benefit, because they are more fully vetted. They are more held to account and the Democrats are as a result viewed as less principled and held less accountable by the public in general. Before anyone hops on that I will say it is through personal campaigning and polling I know this to be true. Both parties have their stereotypical strengths, the republicans are by far viewed more principled and responsible. But hey, the Democrats really care though! What the hell they care about though is becoming the problem.

I said the other day that the Democrats had the chance to become the party of Clinton's Policies. Instead they have chosen become the party of his character, tactics and political games. Had they chosen the former I would still be with them. I leave Grant in his youth to carry that hope, I have waited since Vietnam for them to grow up, too long indeed.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 01:54 PM

Poling - the Libertarian party proposes to cut and run.

Totten - are you a three year old? How about growing up a little? See if you can act four. I think you can if you try really hard.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 19, 2004 01:54 PM

I'm serious, Hypocrite. You're a pissed-off brat with nothing to say. I have no idea why you even bother to come here unless you get some kind of emotional satisfaction from sticking your tongue out at people.

Shorter Mark Poling: blah blah blah

You're a troll, Hypocrite. I'm done arguing with you, and I suggest everyone else ignore you too.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 19, 2004 02:04 PM

Hey, we're all Neo-Liberals now ;)

"Recalling a famous saying of his father, the neoconservative pioneer Irving Kristol, that a neoconservative was "a liberal who has been mugged by reality," the younger Mr. Kristol joked that now they might end up as neoliberals — defined as "neoconservatives who had been mugged by reality in Iraq."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/19/politics/19CONS.html?ex=1082952000&en=3ead1edf3c2212dd&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

interesting read: Lack of Resolution in Iraq Finds Conservatives Divided

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 02:04 PM

Samuel - you want to deify Bush and crucify Kerry? Fine, but they're both just politicians to me ;)

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 02:14 PM

Sorry, Michael: do you mind one last shot?

Yes, Hipocrite, I know the Libertarian party is isolationist (as a rule). But if, hypothetically speaking, Bush "cut and run" then I would have to vote according to secondary considerations, as my primary consideration (safety for me and mine from a future hideous, messy death) had been abandoned by everybody.

Some of us worry about things like that.

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 19, 2004 02:35 PM

Philly,

"So, if the IRAQIS want the U.N. out -- they can order them out"

Order them out???? They aren't in so where would the Iraqis order the UN out of?

"conversely, they can continue Bush's plan of U.N. intervention in Iraq"

So I guess you think having the UN bless the transition on June 30 is the same thing as Kerry's plan to (through some magic we have not been privy to) turn over responsibility for Iraq to the UN.

If you don't see the difference between these two positions (to say nothing of the fantasy land in which Kerry's plan would actually be achieved) then I guess you don't have all that much to contribute in terms of a real discussion on the issue at hand.

Posted by: Hacksaw at April 19, 2004 02:35 PM

Hacksaw - huh? Familarize yourself w/ U.N. Envoy Brahimi and his role in Iraq's June 30th transition, as well as Bush & Blair's endorsements of the U.N. role, and THEN get back to me, OK? Facts first, opinions later ;)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/19/iraq.power.tm/index.html

"...you don't have all that much to contribute in terms of a real discussion on the issue at hand."

Big Man on an anonymous chat board -- LOL

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 02:58 PM

Philly

Cute, you didn’t address one point not one! Instead some offensive words whether I am going to deify Bush and crucify Kerry?
Philly I am a Jew I could do without the reference to me crucifying Kerry or anybody. Stick to the arguments, nudnik.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 03:01 PM

Unfortunately, the fact remains that the role that Brahimi is playing is not the same role for the UN that Kerry has called for. It is unclear that under Brahimi's plan for transition, the UN will come in and do anything (at least not until 2005). Moreover, it isn't at all clear that the UN would take any of the load off for the US which is essentially what Kerry has called for (without saying how he plans to achieve it). That's clear even from the article you linked to. Your beloved CNN quoted Kerry on this very question yesterday:

---------------------
But Kerry said Bush has transferred to the United Nations only the responsibility to determine the nature of the interim government that will take over sovereignty June 30.

"He won't transfer to the U.N. the real authority for determining how the government emerges, how we will do the reconstruction of Iraq," Kerry said.
---------------------

So Kerry knows Brahimi's role is not the same thing as what he's called for. As for the Big Man, whatever dude, all I'm saying is unless you get this difference, little else makes sense to talk about.

Posted by: Hacksaw at April 19, 2004 03:27 PM

Samuel - So what if you're a Jew?

A. I'm not pscyhic; AND

B. Jesus was a cruficied Jew, one among 10's of thousands, so spare me the religous card, when it's a historical reference, ok?

Nothing to address; we'll simply agree to disagree.

You couldn't cite/link to Bush or his Administration being critical of the blossoming UN/Oil Scandal, so you divert by going on a psyschological profile of Bush b/c he was a champ poker player? huh?

And then you make personal judgments: I live in a Machievallean World? I'm morally equivocal, cynical, yadda yadda -- and what does Arnold have to do w/anything?

I've only been posting here a few days!! You know NOTHING about me.

Point/counter-point I understand, but your style is overly emotional and personal -- sweeping in generalizations and psychologically amateurish -- I'm not comfortable with that, Samuel.

There's NO REASON for us to address each other in further posts.

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 03:28 PM

Hack - "My beloved CNN"?? Another overly emotional poster -- what's w/the guys around here? A bit 'touchy feely' for my tastes -- LOL

You obviously still aren't grasping Brahimi and the U.N.'s role -- that's OK -- It'll become clear soon enough.

So what's your plan? Hang on Kerry's every word, and ignore Bush's every deed? that'll work for awhile :)

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 03:48 PM

Philly, et al:

Have any of you considered that the exact nature of the new Iraqi government will require round after round of extremely delicate negotiations with all the factional leaders and other major players currently vying for power and favor in Iraq?

Have you considered that the Bush Administration may know quite a bit about the nature of the entity which will take power on the 30th?

Have you considered that Bush may have a very good reason not to make any sort of positive statement about that entitity at this time: Namely, that delicate negotiations are still under way, and any statement at all about the nature of the entity carries a grave risk of alienating one or more important factions that are currently in the middle of the diplomatic process?

Have you considered that perhaps Bush believes that allowing the negotiations to run their proper course, in due time, will produce a better governing entity than the one we'd get if Bush made reassuring noises to the American public at this time?

Posted by: Peter A. at April 19, 2004 03:52 PM

Michael, you sound quite a bit like me about a few years back. I hoped that a moderate party would arise, which was why I allowed myself to be duped into thinking that Bill Clinton was a different kind of Democrat in 1992.

The problem with moderates is that they don't get anybody excited who will do the heavy lifting necessary to get them elected. Like it or not, the folks who will put up the signs on their front yards and ring doorbells and make donations and all the other necessary stuff are not going to be moderates.

Put another way, the problem with running down the middle of the street is that you get shot at from both sides. Here in AZ we had a very nice guy named Paul Johnson running for governor as a Democrat. He was one of those "New Democrat" types that the DLC was pushing. However, he didn't get anybody excited in his own party, and the teachers' union and the Tucson Daily (Red) Star both ended up endorsing the Republican for the first time in memory. I crossed over to vote for him, but he ended up getting crushed.

BTW, you would not like McCain if you knew him better. He's not a moderate, by any means. He just knows how to get the "sudden respect" that comes to any Republican who trashes other Republicans or says something nice about a Democrat.

Posted by: Pat Curley at April 19, 2004 04:04 PM

Pat: BTW, you would not like McCain if you knew him better.

What do you suppose I wouldn't like about him? You probably know something about him that I don't. Do you live in Arizona?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 19, 2004 04:21 PM

Peter - you raise cogent and reasoned points -- I'm actually concerned that Bush, despite his flair w/rhetoric, is dis-engaging from Iraq for political expediency -- he's more a candidate now -- it's all about staying in power now, after all.

We'll see.......

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 04:24 PM

Philly, did Brahimi harm Afghanistan?

Posted by: Jim at April 19, 2004 04:27 PM

Philly

First I made very specific answers you failed to do the same plain and simple.

Samuel - So what if you're a Jew?
A. I'm not pscyhic; AND
B. Jesus was a cruficied Jew, one among 10's of thousands, so spare me the religous card, when it's a historical reference, ok?

I said I was Jewish in the first post in this thread, so you didn’t need to be a psychic. I will spare nothing as I played no religious card, that is what you did by bringing the word religion and crucifixion to begin with. Philly people in a Judeo-Christian society know what the significance of saying someone is crucifying another means. Put it in the same category of using the word crusade as simply a reference of fighting. It is silly to use such a phrase and feign innocence, if that is the case than claims of ignorance are more in order. I find it very interesting that as you accuse Bush of “ignoring” the UN/Food Scandal and taking all sorts of pot shots you say...

Nothing to address; we'll simply agree to disagree.

You never gave one answer and then imply…
You couldn't cite/link to Bush or his Administration being critical of the blossoming UN/Oil Scandal, so you divert by going on a psychological profile of Bush b/c he was a champ poker player? huh?

Nice try! I said… Philly is it lost on you that this scandal is past, BECAUSE OF THE VERY ACTIONS OF THIS PRESIDENT? Yes Philly if for the political philosophy of this President’s political opponents this scandal would still be happening. The poker reference was to point out you are overlooking his tactics. That is not the fault of this President. What in essence you are doing is trying to hold the President to account for principles that you don’t believe in anyway otherwise you would have acknowledged my pointing out his actions ended the scandalous program. If you believe it is than certainly he deserves more than cynical criticism.

That is why a made the reference to morally equivocal, cynical but hey you left the handle “CynicalSid” so excuse me for pointing out an obvious self reference as you complain that I called you cynical. And like most holding your positions you show propensity for dishing out more than you can take. I answered way more points than you did. Since you like to make points but allow others to go over your head I’ll leave you alone on making any further. But lastly Philly, of course you aren’t comfortable as you don’t like to be held to account for the things personal you say or do. You want to play a trap game but hate having to play by the very rules your own questions lay out. Your questions are disrespectful and demeaning. They attempt to play gotcha on principles you don’t even show strong belief in. Oh sure you don’t see it that way people on the left rarely do. It is a one way street. Philly you say I don’t know you? Well the same, I have yet to vote for a Republican and didn’t even vote for Bush. Good Luck, as all you said you are bothered by you are guilty of.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 06:01 PM

Philly,

The very essence of a compassionate (or maybe just a passionate) conservative I guess!

If it sounds like I think Brahimi's role is minor or even if it sounds like this is not a big step towards the UN for the Bush administration, that is not my intent. My point is merely that Kerry has a widely different view of how involved the UN should be (and by connection how less involved we should be). That doesn't mean I think that Bush has done everything right or that they haven't changed their positions on the UN and Iraq, it's pretty obvious that that is not the case. But I continue to believe that Bush's concept of the UN role in Iraq including Brahimi's role is more on point (and in any event very different) from Kerry's. If not, how do you explain Kerry's comments on Sunday?

Posted by: Hacksaw at April 19, 2004 06:54 PM

Hack - a Passionate Conservative? call me kinky, but that has a nice ring to it ;)

I half-listen to Kerry at this point, to tell you the truth :)

I'm much more attentive to Bush's actions...which will dictate Kerry's re-action, should he win.

From what I've read though -- Brahimi's insulted us!!; wants to either load the IGC w/technocrats, or disband the IGC??....let's see how his proposals gets folded into a new U.N. resolution, which I believe is on the table, w/both Bush's and Blair's support.

Bush seems very passive in the political process in Iraq, doesn't he? He's just delegating it to Brahimi -- if Bush is just posturing politically, I don't see how it works to his advantage since his strength is 'resolved leader' to appear to be dis-engaged?

Again, let's see how the new resolution plays out.

Posted by: Philly at April 19, 2004 08:39 PM

Michael, yes I live in AZ, and I know quite a few of the politicos here. A (sadly deceased) friend of mine was a big-time lobbyist here and I would often attend the dinners that they would put on. McCain's a bantam rooster, bullying type of guy with a mercurial (and legendary) temper. My friend got sideways on an issue with him, and it must have been about six months afterwards that they ran into each other (in my presence). McCain did the finger poking in the chest, the spittle flying off his lips routine, cursing a blue streak. It was quite an eye-opener, because I had met him once or twice before that and he was always quite genial, the way he appears on TV. My friend said he'd had it happen a few times before, but that McCain was worse with low-level people like staffers.

Posted by: Pat Curley at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM

Pat Curly

Well I live in Washington DC and could tell you stories about McCain. What you said is a small reason why they would not have him as a candidate.

Posted by: Samuel at April 19, 2004 10:06 PM

Philly,

I think that GWB still believes in the IDEA of the UN and the POTENTIAL role it can play in the world. For this reason he has not yet given up on the UN. Even if GWB didn't still believe in the idea of the UN, he would still make concessions to Tony Blair to work through the UN.

Kerry believes in the UN as it is - corrupted and failed. That is the difference.

As for me, the idea of the UN is like the idea of socialism. Both sound good in theory, but neither can be realized in the real world. And the quest for UN or socialist utopias end up doing more harm than good. We are better off accepting that the world for what it is. So I say US out of UN, UN out of US.

Posted by: HA at April 20, 2004 03:43 AM

I really wanted Edwards. Sigh.

Posted by: karrie at April 20, 2004 09:25 AM

Michael:

I think you and Andrew Sullivan are not smart to wait around for a statement from Kerry re: the war that sounds reasonable enough to support a vote for him. Kerry's m.o. is to cover all rhetorical bases, and he will likely say something in the course of the campaign that seems to show that he understands the war as you do. Unfortunately, he's made many such statements in the past, and he has squarely repudiated them the moment the going got tough. Kerry's whole adult life reveals his worldview: American power is suspect, and its use is illegitimate unless approved by others, especially those do do not share our values or aims. American freedom of action must be surrendered for the good of the world. And when other nations hate us, it is always our fault.

Posted by: rds at April 21, 2004 11:58 AM

Still, I find myself more or less back to where I was during the last election when I voted for Ralph Nader. I was a paleoliberal then who was mad at the neolibs in the Democratic Party. Now I’m a neoliberal centrist annoyed with the paleos. I guess I’m just hard to please.

Damn. And to think they call KERRY a "waffler."

Posted by: RoguePlanet at April 22, 2004 05:21 PM

Very good subject.
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猎头
猎头
货架
搬家公司
搬家公司
北京搬家
北京搬家公司
北京搬家公司
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搬家公司
搬家公司
北京搬家公司
北京搬家公司
搬家公司
北京律师
营养师
营养师培训
喷码机
铸造模拟软件
激光快速成型机

搬家公司
搬家公司
北京搬家公司
北京搬家公司
google排名
google排名
监控
监控
激光打标机
软件工程硕士
集团电话
集团电话
激光打标机
激光打标机
打包机
打包机
拓展训练
塑钢门窗
网站设计
机票
机票
网站建设
数据采集卡
美国国家大学
在职研究生
呼叫中心
交换机
激光打标机
激光打标机

磁控溅射台
磁控溅射台
淀积台
淀积台
镀膜机
镀膜机
匀胶机
匀胶机
溅射仪
溅射仪
刻蚀机
刻蚀机
pecvd
pecvd
去胶机
去胶机
康王
康王
康王
康王
康王
喜来健
喜来健
喜来健
喜来健
喜来健

Posted by: 三红西水 at August 29, 2007 11:46 PM
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