April 13, 2004

More Trouble for Kos? (Updated)

I decided to take a pass on the Daily Kos scandal where Markos Moulitsas Zniga, who is perhaps the most famous liberal blogger in the world, wrote a particularly nasty hate screed against the Americans massacred in Fallujah. Markos was de-linked by the official John Kerry blog, and he lost a lot of advertisers on his site. I figured he was punished enough and there was little point in piling on. Besides, I didnt have anything original to say.

It seems our formerly esteemed blogger hasnt yet learned that toning down the rhetoric and asininity might be wise.

Theres a new post up that deserves a little scrutiny.

Before I wade into it, I should point out that Markos himself didnt write it. One of his contributers named Soj wrote it, but Markos seems to think its a worthy post. He did let it stand.

There are two serious problems.

First this choice little bit:

The only "crime" Sadr has committed is protesting the closing of his newspaper by Bremer, an American, despite the fact Powell says we're there to bring the Iraqi people "a better life".
Puh-leeze. As if Moqtada al-Sadr is Howard Sterns counterpart in Iraq. Al-Sadr is a theocratic totalitarian, a terrorist, a killer of both Iraqis and Americans, an ally of Hezbollah and Hamas, and an Iranian tool. I really dont know what else to say except that Im amazed some people have the damnest time recognizing an enemy, even when he announces his intentions in blood and fire.

Anyway, theres another problem with the post in question, a problem that goes well beyond an asinine throw-away line. Repeated throughout the entire piece (which is really quite long) is the assertion that Colin Powell is an Uncle Tom who stumps for Massah Bush.

This racist claptrap has got to stop. Yeah, its racist. It isnt just rude and obnoxious.

Its not racist because it implicitly says a black man cant be successful. If Colin Powell were a Democrat working for a John Kerry administration, there is no chance an accusation of Uncle Tommery (for lack of a better phrase) would appear anywhere near a liberal blog.

Colin Powell is an Uncle Tom because hes a Republican. And heres whats racist about it.

I dont know of anyone who thinks a white person cant choose his or her political party. Its fine if youre a white Republican. And its fine if youre a white Democrat. But a certain kind of person thinks a black man can only belong to one political party. White people can choose. Black people cannot. White people can have a range of opinions. Black people need to have their opinions and associations dictated to them by someone else.

Markos Zniga is himself an ethnic minority. He, of all people, ought to know better than to peddle this condescending, anti-democratic, illiberal crap.

Ive lost the desire to read his blog. Ryan Boots deserves credit for bringing this post to my attention.


UPDATE: In my comments section Mithras posted the following:

The idiot who posted that did not do so as "[o]ne of [Kos's] contributers"; it was a diary entry. Anyone can create a diary at Kos. Kos exercises no editorial control over diary posts, as is his right. So how is this indicative of anything related to Kos?
If that is the case, I made a mistake bringing Markos Zniga into this. I'm not as familiar with the mechanics of the blog as Mithras is. Markos does have contributers other than himself who post on the main page. I thought this was one of those posts. My commentary stands, but Markos is exempted. Sorry for goofing it.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at April 13, 2004 11:33 PM
Comments

What can you say about Zuniga? First he shoots himself in the leg; now he shoots himself in the nose. The question is--does he have a IQ in triple digits? He certainly doesn't act like it. When I first blogged about this miss, I mistakenly put down the guy was in his twenties, to find out he was in his thirties. Actually, he acts as if he's about nine. Even if this is one of his cronies, a grownup would behave differently. You and I would (I hope!)... Yeah, we would.

Posted by: Roger L. Simon at April 13, 2004 11:53 PM

Michael, you might want to check on this post, I don't think Markos wrote it.

Derek

Posted by: Derek at April 13, 2004 11:57 PM

The capacity of so many people on the left (and the right) to think in dogmatic manichean terms truly astounds. Even from the perspective of opposition to the war in Iraq, what is so damn difficult about understanding that al-Sadr's "fighters" are but armed fundamentalist fascists? I also agree with your comments regarding Colin Powell and I am NOT a wild fan of his. To demand that anyone hold a particular political position based on their race is a concept worthy only of the old So African apartheid intelligence services.

Posted by: Marc Cooper at April 14, 2004 12:04 AM

Derek: Michael, you might want to check on this post, I don't think Markos wrote it.

Yes, I mentioned that in my post. I know he didn't write it. It's still on his blog. He is responsible for it the same way an editor is responsible for publishing idiot crap in a magazine.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 12:12 AM

I've seen editorial cartoons in French newspapers that show Colin Powell as if drawn by some "artist" from the Ku Klux Klan.

Things are gonna get uglier, too, I'm afraid.

Posted by: miklos rosza at April 14, 2004 12:12 AM

"The only 'crime' Sadr has committed is protesting the closing of his newspaper by Bremer..."

You know, we probably shouldn't have closed down Sadr's newspaper. Had we simply ignored the man, he would have remained marginalized. The fact that we gave him the time of day enough to shut it down actually lent a twisted sort of legitimacy to his cause. He was trying to pick a fight. He's been trying to pick a fight for as long as we've been there. Power is all the guy is after. Nothing more. Clamping down on his newspaper was just about the most stupid thing we possibly could have done: Like a celebrity who punches a guy talking trash to him in the face winding up in court getting sued for everything he owns because of it. It was such an absolutely dumb move.

That having been said, this Markos fellow is stretching the definition of "protest" to absurdity. You don't PROTEST with terrorism. You terrorize with terrorism. Big difference.

I'm glad I've never heard of this blogger before, Michael, and I'm hoping I'll never have to hear from him again: "Illiberal Crap" just about sums it up.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 12:12 AM

Grant: You know, we probably shouldn't have closed down Sadr's newspaper.

Please permit me a moment of laziness. I wouldn't write this on the main page because I'm not 100 percent sure this is right. But I think the reason we shut down his paper is because he published the street addresses of provisional government politicians and ordered them killed.

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 12:15 AM

And, thank you, Marc Cooper, for calling out BOTH the Left and Right a minute ago. I wish to God more people around here recognized the mindnumbing effects of, as you put it, thinking in "dogmatic manichean terms".

It's an affliction of wingnuts, everywhere. Left AND Right. Thanks for being fair about it.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 12:18 AM

Thanks for bringing this up, Michael. I've been disturbed by the racial nicknames since Harry Belafonte started using them about Powell and Rice.

Posted by: John Tillinghast at April 14, 2004 12:24 AM

Apparently, black folks don't deserve respect unless they live on the Liberal plantation as pets to their Liberal benefactors.

The days of conservative racism are over, i.e., Jim Crow, segregation, what have you. But Liberal racism is alive and well in the thinly veiled condescension and paternalism with which they treat black folks and minorities in general. I mean, who could get away with calling Condoleeza "brown sugar" but a Liberal? Or Colin Powell a house slave? Unbelievable.

What happened to MLK's color blind society? Is affirmative action color blind? Is telling third world brown people it's ok for them to act like savages not condescension? Is giving third world brown people a pass on their ass backwardness color blind? No. It's paternalism, condescension, and racism. Liberal racism.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 12:30 AM

MJT...

I hadn't heard that particular, Michael. I know the paper was just about as anti-American as they come, but I hadn't heard that.

I do know, however, that the paper had not reportedly led to any attacks on US forces or rival Iraqis when we shut it down (as reported in The New Republic). I guess you have to draw the line somewhere, I mean had the New York Times called for the deaths of American politicians I would be all for shutting down the New York Times. But, perhaps Iraq is different.

You can still make the case that until someone actually acted upon it, it would have been a whole hell of alot wiser to not draw attention to the guy, making a hero out of him to some. In the end, that's the case I'm making, here: That we should have marginalized Sadr and maximized Sistani and not the other way around.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 12:30 AM

I agree that you should quit reading the guy's blog. I mean, I used to read this site every day but lately every time I come by you are in a fit of outrage because some third-rate opiniozoid said some inanity. That kind of stuff gets boring fast.

What I'm trying to say is, if you let a commentcritter like that one cramp your style it looks like you are taking them seriously. They're not worth it, in my opinion. A poison laced one-liner can be more effective in this case than two pages of earnest indignation.

I know, I know, earnest indignation is your middle name, but still...

Posted by: jose vitriolo at April 14, 2004 12:31 AM

Leave it up to David to wildly overreact. ;)

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 12:32 AM

Michael J. Earnest Indignation Totten...
Christopher Earnest Indignation Hitchens...

Michael J. Christopher Hitchens Earnest Indignation Totten?

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 12:37 AM

Jose: I used to read this site every day but lately every time I come by you are in a fit of outrage because some third-rate opiniozoid said some inanity.

He's the most popular liberal blogger in the world. He has fifty times my daily traffic. He may be third-rate, but he's fair game. (Actually, I used to think he was second if not first rate.)

Fit of outrage? Oh, come on. If I'm in a fit of outrage, you'll know it. This ain't it.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 12:37 AM

Kos himself is peddling the "Cheney still paid by Haliburton" trope. A few reasonable posters explained the truth, but it's still raw meat for the neanderthals. I can get that sort of nonsense at Atrios.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/4/13/162755/774

Posted by: Rick at April 14, 2004 12:41 AM

Zuniga is scum, what can you say. And his posters? Pathetic groupies. I left that blog feeling defiled and in need of a long shower.

This Zuniga, not only did he spit on the charred corpses of dead Americans far braver than himself, but his "apology" was nothing but an excuse to take a shot at his critics, and no apology at all.

You know, people talk about "manichean" this and "manichean" that. Manichean my @ss. No attempts by you leftys at moral equivalence are going to convince me that Zuniga and his groupies haven't proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are filth.

Oh, it's all equivalent you say. The Right is bad too. Let's be sophisticated about this. Let's not be "manichean", it's so, how shall I say, "lower classes." My god, do you think that the filth the Left spews against Americans would EVER come out of a conservative blog? If the Right is vengeful, we know where to direct it. We don't direct it at our own friggin country and it's own dead, mutilated citizens. Manichean my ass.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 12:46 AM

Michael-
You're stooping a bit to find things to be outraged about now. The idiot who posted that did not do so as "[o]ne of [Kos's] contributers"; it was a diary entry. Anyone can create a diary at Kos. Kos exercises no editorial control over diary posts, as is his right. So how is this indicative of anything related to Kos?

Posted by: Mithras at April 14, 2004 12:46 AM

"It's still on his blog. He is responsible for it the same way an editor is responsible for publishing idiot crap in a magazine."

Like all the Kosniks and their fellow travellers want Charles Johnson to be responsible for every comment on his blog.

Posted by: Yehudit at April 14, 2004 12:49 AM

"Kos exercises no editorial control over diary posts, as is his right."

Charles exercises no editorial control over comments in comment threads, as is his right." (Except that he does. albeit loosely.)

Hmmm. Double standards?

Posted by: Yehudit at April 14, 2004 12:50 AM

Michael,

I think you should mention in your post that the racist Uncle Tom post is not part of the main blog of Daily Kos, but is instead part of "Diaries" section. As far as I can tell (and I could be wrong) this post, as terrible as it is, never showed up on the front page of Daily Kos.

One of the decision that Kos has made is to allow users that have had an account for over a week to post entries to a diary. This does not imply that Kos agrees with all of these posts anymore than you agree with all of the comments on your blog. In fact, Kos has not commented on this entry at all.

As far as I can tell the user who posted this diary entry has never had a front page post, and may be a "diary troll'.

Posted by: Noah Brimhall at April 14, 2004 12:50 AM

DAVID...

I would call you a troll for all the fights you love to pick, but you pick them so well. Bombast suits you. You SHOULD be on talk radio, my friend.

Conservative, liberal, whatever: That style of knowing just how to incite a reaction would make you a fortune. You're like the Andy Kaufman of politics and it's a kind of genius, it really is.

I'm serious about this, too, dead serious. Take it as a compliment: It ain't my style, but for you it's a gift.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 01:01 AM

Mithras and Noah,

I made a correction in my main post. I didn't know this didn't appear on the main page of his site.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 01:01 AM

MJT...

To reference the Hitchens stuff in my previous posts, would you consider yourself a contrarian?

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 01:04 AM

Grant: would you consider yourself a contrarian?

I don't know. I read Hitchens' book Letters to a Young Contrarian and loved it. I felt like he was speaking to me. But I read it because of the byline, not because of the title.

I don't think of myself as a contrarian. But maybe I am?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 01:06 AM

Grant,

It's more therapy for me than it is incitement.

cheers

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:10 AM

Maybe at the gut-level, yeah. I dunno. It's a visceral thing. I got a little bit of it in me, too.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 01:11 AM

Uhhh...just for the record, for anyone a little confused, that "gut-level" post was in response to Totten.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 01:12 AM

LOL, ok Grant.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:16 AM

I don't know if it was a mistake to close down the guy's paper. It probably was a mistake to be caught unprepared initially for the backlash. But I heard he was calling for Jihad against the U.S. and the provisional gov't. That was not tolerable. The fact that the guy had a militia, arms, funding and organization probably meant that there was going to be a show-down sooner or later. Perhaps it's better that it happen now than after the hand-over. Or perhaps not. Maybe Sadr was desperate to do it before the handover.

Posted by: John in Tokyo at April 14, 2004 01:16 AM

Or perhaps not. Maybe Sadr was desperate to do it before the handover.

To blame the insurrection on Bush, as John F*ing Kerry did, is exactly the kind of crap that is driving me nuts. This Sadr fellow had it up his sleeve the whole time, and he timed it to coincide with the troop rotations and the June handover. What exactly will Kerry NOT say to get elected? Isn't he proving by the kind of campaign that he's running that he isn't fit for the office? And his groupies repeat his crap like mindless robots.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:24 AM

Michael-
Fair enough.

Posted by: Mithras at April 14, 2004 01:34 AM

MR. TOKYO...

In terms of it being tolerable, you're absolutely right. But sometimes the best way to deal with idiots screaming from rooftops is to leave them to their idiocy. Had we ignored this guy, I mean done everything in our power to send him the message that he's like the buzzing of flies to us, the situation probably would have turned out alot better.

Then again, I do imagine you're right in saying that Sadr probably wanted a showdown now out of desperation. He upped the volume of his dissent to get it. Odds are he probably would have kept on forcing the issue harder and harder. He probably would have gone to direct violence next, had we not shut down his newspaper. Either way a confrontation was probably inevitable. I'm just saying maybe we shouldn't have given him something like the newspaper crackdown to rally his troops with. In shutting down the newspaper, we chose to strike the first blow which makes him out to look like the good-guy with alot of Iraqis. I say, we should have just let him start the shit instead.

And I hate the Orwellian-sounding explanation of it all, I really do: That the worse things get the better things are going. But, in this situation, it's undeniably true. Bush is so overly simplistic sometimes it scares me. But sometimes the truth really IS a simple thing: They're getting desperate.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 01:36 AM

And before you even say it, David, no I'm not blaming this on Bush. Sadr would have attacked us, either way. I'm just saying we made a miscalculation, a big miscalculation, in shutting down the paper. It lets Sadr frame the issue with the Iraqi people.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 01:38 AM

PS...

And if you think Sadr isn't that saavy a politician, you're crazy. This whole thing is a power grab and he's manipulating events like a pro.

He suckers us into shutting down his paper forcing the twisted image of the mighty United States squaring off against a defiant Iraqi and pious Muslim. This gains him ground with the Iraqi people.

Then he immediately seeks to project that image across the greater Middle East by declaring solidarity with Hezbollah and Hamas in their attacks on the Israelis. This crosses religious and ethnic lines as well in the fact that he's a Shiite Muslim aligning himself with the Sunni Islamists of Hamas.

It's no wonder Iran wants to get in contact with this guy. For a ruthless thug, Sadr's a masterful politician. It's pretty hard to deny.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 01:48 AM

People always ask me why I'm a political science major. That's why I'm a political science major.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 14, 2004 01:56 AM

Michael,

Good job on the update/correction.

Little mistakes like this are why I hate writing my blog, but love the medium.

I read your entry and the idea that Kos approved this upset me, so I decided to check it out. Then I noticed it was a diary entry. Since these do sometimes get "promoted" to the front page I checked some more.

Posted by: Noah Brimhall at April 14, 2004 02:42 AM

marc cooper-

I read less than 24 hrs ago how Garafolo tried to use manichean in her Air America blah fest. I haven't seen this word used in ages. If you use it when trying to sound educated, I hope you learn how to pronounce it correctly. Miss Garafolo pronounced it "man itch IAN". Wrong.

Regards

Posted by: Sam Boogliodemus at April 14, 2004 04:07 AM

MJT,

But I think the reason we shut down his paper is because he published the street addresses of provisional government politicians and ordered them killed.

Kerry said Sadr's paper was a "legitimate voice." Now I know why. Sadr's supporters call for the death of American leaders. Kerry's supporters call for the death of American leaders:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/13/dem.ad/index.html
http://www.drudgereport.com/stp.gif

And of course as a leader in VVAW, Kerry attended a meeting in Kansas City where VVAW voted on a plan to assasinate American Congressional leaders.

This is nothing new. But remember - this is legitimate DISSENT not TREASON.

Posted by: HA at April 14, 2004 04:46 AM

It really can't be disputed that leftists hate America. For the moment, they can personalize that hatred by project it onto Bush. This gives the lefites a fig leaf. What are they going to do when Bush is gone?

It is going to be a real spectacle if Kerry wins the election because he will be in an untenable position in the war on terror. If Kerry governs accordance with America's interests, the leftists will turn on him with as much venom as they have for Bush because in the final analysis it is America itself rather than Bush they really hate. If Kerry governs according to the desires of the America-hating leftists who got him elected, it will be a disaster for America and eventually the rank-and-file Democrats who are just confused for now will catch on.

Kerry and the Democrats are in a no-win situation. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I don't see how the Democrats can survive a Kerry Presidency with their coalition intact. I used to think that the decline of the Democratic party was bad for America. But now it is becoming obvious that the moral and intellection corruption and rot in the party is so extreme that they are beyond redemption. I'm reaching the point that I would like to see a Kerry Presidency just so the irreconcilable forces within the party are brought into conflict once and for all.

Posted by: HA at April 14, 2004 05:09 AM

Grant,

Had we simply ignored the man, he would have remained marginalized.

Sorry Grant, but that is wishful thinking. This current insurgency, the kidnappings, the lynchings, the Madrid bombings, etc. were all planned in Iran back in February. They are not reacting to us, they are executing their plan. And once again, the Democrats are playing their assigned role of undermining our will to fight.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/pf.php?id=1471

Posted by: HA at April 14, 2004 05:18 AM

HA:

If Kerry governs accordance with America's interests, the leftists will turn on him with as much venom as they have for Bush because in the final analysis it is America itself rather than Bush they really hate.

Bingo (with a caveate coming later). Kerry (just like Kos, on a smaller scale) has a real problem with the company he keeps. For that matter, so does Bush; his panders to the right (gay marriage being the obvious one) hurt him more than they help him, I think.

Zealots always give you the most effort, but you have to watch them around the women, children, and livestock.

Caveat: I don't agree that Leftists hate America. My working theory is that they fear (at a gut level) America's power. Just like people who say they hate guns don't really hate the gun, they fear the potential uses. The use of American power feeds Leftist fears, which manifest as hatred of the people in charge. And apoplexy towards people who don't have the same gut response (i.e. the Right Wing Hate Mongers).

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 14, 2004 05:45 AM

Grant,

That's the problem. If Sadr was just some knuckle-dragging thug then he would still be dangerous, but he'd be easier to fight. But he also intelligent when it comes to politics and manipulating public perceptions in Iraq. He's already built a power base, which seems to be growing. That makes him a far more dangerous threat to the success of the coalition in Iraq.

Posted by: sam at April 14, 2004 05:48 AM

I think the reason we shut down his paper is because he published the street addresses of provisional government politicians and ordered them killed.

There is not a single news account that describes this. The accusation against the paper was inciting violence against occuping forces, not against the CPA.

Either it's not true, or the CPA, and by extension, the US government is lying to you. Pick one.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 06:14 AM

Just out of interest, who did write the piece in the first place? If it wasn't one of Kos' regular contributors who was it?

Posted by: sam at April 14, 2004 06:18 AM

Like this hasn't been explained a hundred times.

Anyone can write a diary who has had a user account for more than a week. You. Me. Charles Johnson. George Bush. Saddam Hussein.

http://www.dailykos.com/special/faq#1
"I can't post a diary or comment!
You have to register with the site to post comments or diaries.
New users must then wait 24 hours to post a comment, and one week to post a diary."

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 06:38 AM

Hippocrite:

Either it's not true, or the CPA, and by extension, the US government is lying to you. Pick one.

Ah, the meme that keeps on keepin' on.

Hippocrite, Michael said that he wasn't sure of his recollection of the CPA's justification. Where does that "lying" thing come from?

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 14, 2004 06:40 AM

Real easy.

The CPA says the paper was inciting violence against troops, and that's why they were shut down.

If they were instead shut down for distributing addresses of CPA officials, then the CPA is lying to you. They said A, but A was not true, B was true, and they knew it.

That's lying. Either MT is wrong (most likley case) or the CPA is lying (least likley case). Pick one.

Of course, given the entire screed about a commentor on a site being attributed to the site, coupled with the Little Green Footballs link over on the side bar, it's 0/1 today.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 06:43 AM

Grant,

Leaving Sadr alone would have sent a message that we don't really mean what we say in regard to incitement in the Iraqi press. Now do you really believe that would have had no consequences?

Let's not be naive: sometimes there's a bad and a worse option available.

Posted by: JB at April 14, 2004 06:49 AM

Since this ‘popular insurgency’ was most likely planned weeks before the closing of the newspaper, I thought that this was a non-issue.

We were seeking to arrest al Sadr for the murder of the more moderate Shiite cleric, Ayatollah Hakim in August 2003. Hakim was murdered by a car bomb that also killed 82 innocent Iraqi bystanders. Under any system of laws that would be a crime.

The question isn’t who wrote the essay – the question is, why do so many leftist commenters have no problem with statements like this:

The only "crime" Sadr has committed is protesting the closing of his newspaper by Bremer, an American, despite the fact Powell says we're there to bring the Iraqi people "a better life

And this Let's see, THEY are for "dictatorship". Why would al-Sadr be for dictatorship when Hussein killed most of his family including his father? Has Sadr ever said he wants to be the dictator of Iraq? Has al-Sistani and the other "remnant Sunnis" called for an imposition of a dictatorship?

In fact, Sadr wants Iraq to be ruled by pre-Medieval Islamic law, a system of laws that make National Socialism seem tame. The establishment of those laws led to mass murder in Afghanistan and the Sudan. Under these laws, slavery is allowed. Those laws are, by any definition, the foundation of a brutal dictatorship.

We’re not fighting Sadr because he’s anti-American, we’re fighting him because he and others like him are trying to establish a genocidal regime.

The question isn’t who wrote it, the question is, why are so many leftists trying to downplay Sadr’s extremism and his crimes? Extremists in Iraq have murdered hundreds of innocent people, and the left wants Americans to leave so extremists can kill many more.

..and ‘Soj’ says Sadr is pro-democracy. I’ve read spam that was more convincing.

Sometimes you have to choose between war and genocide. The choice of the anti-war crowd has always been consistent. If so-called ‘hawks’ are willing to accept the pro-war label, it’s only fair for their opposition to admit that they’re pro-genocide. The Daily Kos seems to be proud of its racism and bias. Maybe they’ll be on the cutting edge again, and be the first to admit it.

Posted by: mary at April 14, 2004 07:24 AM

Couple of points:

1. This Uncle Tom business just betrays how clueless the left is. For one thing, Uncle Tom is one of the great heroes of literature, and anybody who uses his name as an insult has not read the book all the way through.

2. It goes all the way to the top of the Democratic party. John Kerry gave an interview about a month ago in the New York Times where he said things like "I'm not sure what they let Powell do," and that they locked the planes up at night on him. The left just does not know what to think about Powell. They have so caricatured the right as racists that the only thing they can think about black Republicans is that they're sell-outs, house slaves, and even worse. Kerry's comments got me so angry that I started posting a weekly request for everybody to help kill my blog, which I plan on doing the day after Bush's reelection.

Posted by: Pat Curley at April 14, 2004 07:29 AM

Yehudit, the difference between Markos & Charles is the if someone had posted such a rant in comments at LGF, Charles would have deleted it.

Posted by: Cybrludite at April 14, 2004 07:40 AM

Of course, if we're doing truth tables it's also possible that Sadr's paper published names and addresses of CPA officials AND incited violence. Too busy to dig it up, but the archives over at Winds of Change probably has the details.

Possibly off topic, but:

LGF - Allows racist comments. (With occasional deletions.)
Kos - Allows racist postings. (With expedient deletions.)

Do you think both should be accepted? Or both rejected? Or is your position more nuanced?

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 14, 2004 07:42 AM

I heard that Bremer shut down the paper because someone translated a month old headline to him that said the CPA was deliberately starving Iraqis to death. The showdown with Sadr has been building for a year. There can be no handover of power on June 30 or any other date unless the militias are disarmed or melded somehow into the Iraqi police or defense force structures. Sadr's is the most radical goon squad and has to be dismantled first or none of the others will ever lay down their arms paeacably. They probably won't anyway. Closing the paper and arresting Sadr's aide for a year old murder on 6 month old charges and putting out a warrant for Sadr looks like a deliberate provocation to get that ball rolling. Doing it at the same time as the marines surrounded Fallujah and a week before a major Shia holiday was just plain stupid. Now Sunnis and Shiites have found common cause against us. Sadr's gunmen gained enormous prestige by holding Najaf, Kufa and Karbala through the holiday weekend. Killing, capturing or letting him go will only make things worse. If there is a possibility of exiling him to Iraq or Lebanon we should take it. It's not an ideal solution but the best of a bad lot.

Posted by: Mark Garrity at April 14, 2004 08:00 AM

The Uncle Tom smear against Powell is indicative of how ruthless the left can be to any African-American who dares to wander off the liberal plantation. Think Clarence Thomas. These people are treated as traitors rather than free-thinking individuals who have chosen a different path. This is a covert type of racism that occasionally emerges into the light as it did in that Kos diary entry.

Posted by: Randal Robinson at April 14, 2004 08:13 AM

Clarance Thomas is a second-rate legal mind who readily jumped into bed with the foulest of the far-right. On top of that, he was a vicious sexual harasser who should have had his time in court on the other side of the bench.

Colin Powell is a great man who was duped into working for a second-rate adminstration.

There is no similarity between the two of them - oh, except for in the minds of the racists, who just can't get over the skin color.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 08:22 AM

HA -- the absolute certitude with which you promulgate your crackpot ideas and the contempt you hold for those who do not agree is an absolute delight.

While some leftists may "hate america", most leftists do not. Instead they revere different parts of American history, different American historical figures and a different set of American values than you do. What they hate are right-wing Americans, particularly those with political power. Which makes them no different from you, with your accusations of treason.

Your comments about Kerry in Kansas City were irrelevent, baseless slander. And there was no vote, as you claimed.
from the American Spectator:
"How seriously the plan was debated is in dispute; some veterans say it was nothing more than "guys ticked off and talking big at midnight," while others remember a bitter confrontation over the idea. All agree, however, that Kerry was not involved in the discussions and would never have approved of such a plan."

RE: Iran planned Madrid bombings, etc.
Nothing in the New York Post article that you referenced above (at benador associates website) corroborates your claim that the Madrid bombings and the Iraqi insurgency attacks were planned at the 25th anniversary of the Iranian Revolution events that took place in February which were described in the article, which was of course written in late January. You'll need more solid evidence than that to make the case for Iranian regime change.

your claim that the

Posted by: Markus Rose at April 14, 2004 08:34 AM

"The idiot who posted that did not do so as "[o]ne of [Kos's] contributers"; it was a diary entry. Anyone can create a diary at Kos. Kos exercises no editorial control over diary posts, as is his right. So how is this indicative of anything related to Kos?"

Well, everyone has to decide for themselves, but I've always felt that a person or a party is known by the company they keep.

Posted by: Gerard Van der Leun at April 14, 2004 08:40 AM

Mark Garrity - Now Sunnis and Shiites have found common cause against us

They've had a common cause against us since 1979. Where have you been?

Is the attempt to arrest a mass murderer 'deliberate provocation'?

Posted by: mary at April 14, 2004 08:47 AM

Pat states: "1. This Uncle Tom business just betrays how clueless the left is. For one thing, Uncle Tom is one of the great heroes of literature, and anybody who uses his name as an insult has not read the book all the way through."

She's correct about the nature of Tom in "Uncle Tom's Cabin." But surely she knows that to call someone an "Uncle Tom" is not, in our day and age, to call them "A hero."

The last time I looked Uncle Tom's Cabin was not on the High Schools of America required reading list. If anyone were to attempt to put it on, gazillions of protestors would swarm out of the woodwork charging "racism". And you can bet that none of them would have either read or understood the book.

Posted by: Gerard Van der Leun at April 14, 2004 08:50 AM

Thanks for the well-reasoned arguments and insightful opinions, Hypocrite. Judicious temperment and suppleness of intellect seem to be your strong points.

Posted by: DennisThePeasant at April 14, 2004 08:58 AM

You're so smart, anonymous coward, how can I be more like you?

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 09:08 AM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Posted by: praktike at April 14, 2004 09:51 AM

This is nothing new. But remember - this is legitimate DISSENT not TREASON.

HA,

That's right. And never, ever, EVER question their patriotism. But why is it, I ask, that amongst themselves, in their exclusivistic little cocktail parties, will the simple word 'patriotism' never even cross the lips of these patriots? Even the mention of such a word will get you blank stares and/or snickers and rolling eyes. You foolish simpleton. Do you think we went to our elite private colleges and universities to be bothered with such simplistic notions? But don't question my patriotism!

I don't agree that Leftists hate America. My working theory is that they fear (at a gut level) America's power. Just like people who say they hate guns don't really hate the gun, they fear the potential uses.

Marc,

You give them too much credit. The people I know who are against guns hate the GUN. They FEAR the dead piece of steel, even when unloaded, and they find it loathesome. It's a completely visceral and emotional response. These America-haters see America as they see that gun--loathesome until it can be dismantled and its parts melted down. THAT'S the America they claim to love, an America that exists only in our worst dystopian nightmares.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 10:37 AM

On top of that, Clarence Thomas was a vicious sexual harasser who should have had his time in court on the other side of the bench.

How judicious of you. But isn't it strange how Anita followed him from job to job though even when being "harrassed"? Yes indeed, a real "victim". At least the women who accused Clinton of harrassment and rape behaved as women who had actually suffered from it.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 10:48 AM

Markus Rose, HA is 100% correct in his comments about the Kansas City meeting. I've read the parts of the Nicosia book that deal with the Phoenix Project (or Phoenix Plan as it is referred to in the book). Nicosia makes it clear that this was not some offhand discussion. The meeting was moved twice before the proposal was even talked about (the first place they moved to was a church which turned out to have been bugged). At the second location, a vote was taken to exclude all but regional coordinators and members of the national staff. The plan was the subject of heated, almost violent debate, and was voted down.

Posted by: Pat Curley at April 14, 2004 11:04 AM

Why is there so much racism against black republicans? Can't these people see they are tarring themselves with an ugly brush when they post these mental defecations?
I may not like republicanism or the republican party, but blacks have a right to be republican as much as anybody.

Posted by: Franck at April 14, 2004 11:08 AM

Someone wrote:

"This does not imply that Kos agrees with all of these posts anymore than you agree with all of the comments on your blog. In fact, Kos has not commented on this entry at all."

I would expect him, as Master of the Blog, to read the comments and either agree or disagree. That post wasn't just a little troll's fly-by. Soj's post is disgraceful from the start. His caption under Powell's photo is reprehensible. He calls Powell a liar. He links to his own blog. If Kos says nothing, we must - we must - conclude that he agrees with Soj. Soj's post goes on for 13 screens.

If Soj were writing fot the NYT, that paper, not just Soj, would be called on the carpet.

Soj proves himself a certified cretin in his response to the first comment:

"I guess it's just been a rough day and I lost my cool. Cannot even imagine how sending black children to die in Iraq is far greater numbers than white children wouldn't be considered racist, but there you go."

It's so much easier to make up facts than dig them out. More than that, I see photos of soldiers over there, not children. Where I do see children is on Kos's site.

Posted by: Mike at April 14, 2004 11:12 AM

Mike: I would expect him, as Master of the Blog, to read the comments and either agree or disagree.

I don't shoot down every comment in here I disagree with. I don't know that Kos even saw that entry. When I added the update saying he should be left out of it, I was serious.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 11:37 AM

Anita followed him from job to job

Where did you get that little "fact," The Real Anita Hill?. Wait, let me guess - you think she's a "little bit nutty and a little bit slutty?" Hack. I note that you, as well as I know he's a second-rate legal mind in bed with the far-right. Thanks

Mike - Soj did not write a "post," which appears on the front page, he wrote a Diary, which any user can write. That you don't understand the format of DailyKos dosen't make them wrong, but it does make you commenting on it ignorant.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 11:44 AM

MArk Poling,

A flat-out racisit diatribe at LGF will usually be deleted is Charlse sees it, and the poster most likely be banned.Most of the deletions & bannings I've seen on Kos have been of folks who disagreed with Markos. Last I checked, Soj's Uncle Tom comments are still there.

Posted by: Cybrludite at April 14, 2004 11:55 AM

Urg... must proofread...

Posted by: Cybrludite at April 14, 2004 11:55 AM

"A flat-out racisit diatribe at LGF will usually be deleted is Charlse sees it"

Yeah, sure... Not.

And, if you allege he hasn't seen it? It's from the LGF quiz blog.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 12:02 PM

Where did you get that little "fact," The Real Anita Hill?.

Hypocrite:

No, that's not where I heard about it. That basic fact was discussed back and forth by mainstream pundits at the time. I don't recall if she was ever questioned about it at the hearings. You need to brush up on the facts.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 12:16 PM

David - You need to brush up on the facts. He took her from Education to the EEOC because Education was slated to be disbanded.

Coke Can, Long Dong, the invite out and the Porn all happened at EEOC.

Done playing with ya, winger.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 12:41 PM

Hypocrite:

Come out and play. I'll grant you your coke can timeline. But at the hearings, Anita said that Thomas sexually harassed her more than 10 years earlier when she worked for him at the Department of Education and later after she followed him to the EEOC. Thomas constantly asked her out on dates, she said, and made sexual remarks about her appearance and dress and talked about porno movies, his sexual prowess and reputed physical endowments, Hill said under oath. Yet she followed him. Hyp, that's on the record if you have the intellectual courage to look it up.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 12:56 PM

The "You will go out on a date" and the porn were all at EEOC.

Hill stated repetedly that she had few job prospects and enjoyed the work that she did. Anyway, she's a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty, right?

I'm glad you agree with me that Thomas is a far-right second-rate legal mind.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 01:05 PM

David,

Just out of interest how often do you say to yourself "I am a patriot"? How often do you say it to the people you know? Just because the word isn't on someone's lips every hour of every day does not make them unpatriotic.

Posted by: sam at April 14, 2004 01:10 PM

Anyway, she's a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty, right?

No, I don't think she's slutty. I think she's a liar. Even at the time, when I fully backed her (because I was a brainwashed Lib at the time), I thought it odd that she followed him. And most people did too.

Regarding Thomas, though I am currently studying law, I don't consider myself qualified to speak to his "legal mind," unless I decided to repeat rote what somebody else has said about it, as you apparently are doing.

It's been nice playing with ya.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:13 PM

Sam,

only when the topic might arise, which is not often. But I don't treat the word as a joke as some people do.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:14 PM

Has anyone actually asked Kos about the post? And what his opinion on it would be?

Considering the flap it's hard for me to think this is happening under Kos' radar.

And the answer is....

The Daily Kos is hot property amongst the Internet's wingnut community, as they parse every word, diary and comment trying to find ways to delegitimize the site and its community.

The closest he comes to addressing the content of Soj's post is...

Right now, some sites are pointing to a questionable diary entry and claiming I wrote it. It's the dangers of having a community site of this nature.

...and...

Will I "gaffe" again in the future? Undoubtedly. Will diarists put up stupid diaries? Undoubtedly. Will the wingnuts agitate themselves into a tizzy over those things? Undoubtedly.
[emphasis added]

But then it's "Man the barricades!" time:

The wingnuts will do whatever they can to destroy anything that has the potential of galvanizing support for progressive ideals. Hypocrisy be damned.

What truly disturbs me is the lack of introspection on the "do no wrong" Left. The cause is too pure for anything other than victory or victimization. In this case Kos is again the victim, which will in the long run ensure victory for his cause. (This formulation also has disturbing echos of jihadist thought, but I guess saying that makes me a wingnut).

Kos, keep it up and you're well on your way to duplicating IndyMedia with your site.

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 14, 2004 01:17 PM

Fair point, but I've always felt that people's own patriotism is something that they normally take for granted. Its like being healthy, people don't normally say, "Hey, I'm healthy" unless they've been ill or something. Most people only really think about their patriotism when something threatens it, like if someone accuses you of being unpatriotic.

Posted by: sam at April 14, 2004 01:19 PM

David, studying law, eh?

There's a not insignifcant body of Clarence Thomas after ten years look back at his patchwork opinions.

He's got a legal philosophy that's about as sound as Sandra Day O'Flopper.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 01:19 PM

Mark seemed to miss the important line:

Should I start censoring diaries (something I have never done)?

Mark's spinfest on the post is reprehensible.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 01:23 PM

Hipocrite,

I'm not a fan of Clarence Thomas and I never have been. The man gives me the creeps. Even so, your rhetorical overkill comes across as pretty obnoxious. You don't seem capable of having a civil discussion. Prove me wrong.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 01:27 PM

Hyp,

I don't really have a dog in that hunt, so I won't comment on it. But Anita was questionable from the start.

cheers

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:34 PM

Sam,

I understand what you're saying. But I'm talking about an elitist mindset, of which I used to be a part, that looks down on such yokel notions as patriotism and "the flag". Among that elitist set of which I speak is the far more sophisticated view that one is a "citizen of the world." This is something I heard far more often than how "patriotic" one was. And that was no accident. That is the mindset of the Leftist elite, and among most Liberals. I lived it, and I don't consider it patriotic at all, in my non-elitist and humble opinion.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:36 PM

I get your point now, that's fair enough. Though I have to say that I would place myself as a liberal and I definitely regard my country as something very dear to me. Infurating though my government may be at times.

Posted by: sam at April 14, 2004 01:46 PM

Sam,

I'm glad to hear that.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:48 PM

The form of racism you describe would apply nicely to the recent outing of Jewish neo-cons by the big brain behind Adbusters. Seems if you're a Jew on the left, your Jewishness is inconsequential compared to your moral rectitude; speak on the so-called right, however, and it's suddenly an issue that you're Jewish that the likes of Lassn say it's important we all "analyze." As a friend of mine recently put it: "You Jews better stay on the right side of things if you don't want us liberals to turn on you." I guess blacks now have their marching orders, too....

Posted by: Sally at April 14, 2004 01:49 PM

Hip:

Mark seemed to miss the important line:

Should I start censoring diaries (something I have never done)?

Mark's spinfest on the post is reprehensible.

Hey, I've ticked off Hipocrite, I must be doing something right...

So again, Charles (LGF)=bad because he doesn't censor enough, Kos=good because he doesn't censor at all (supposedly - I understand there's some nuance to that policy). What am I missing here?

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 14, 2004 01:52 PM

Sally,

brilliant. I've had my eye on Lefty racism for a while, but you've now opened my eyes to their anti-semitism.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 01:54 PM

Here's what you're missing:

Kos - has one questionable Diary that uses two inapropriate phrases in over two thousand words.
Little Green Hatefest - filled with vile despicable comments that use two appropriate words in a thousand eliminationist phrases.
Kos - Worthy of an inacurate, poorly research front page harshing here.
Little Green Hatefest - Worthy of the blogroll here.
Kos - According to Kos, dosen't censor diaries.
Little Green Hatefest - According to Charles, censors comments to remove thoughts he finds despicable.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 02:24 PM

Hipocrite - The flat out racist diatribe at LGF that you linked to was a reaction to this article.

“Islamic Jihad has admitted their guilt in an ambush against Jewish worshippers in Hebron that killed 11 people and injured more than 20."

What do you think the proper verbal reaction to the deliberate slaughter of innocent people should be? Yes, the comment you linked to was over the top and I wouldn’t say it, but really, what do you have to say about this and hundreds of other Palestinian atrocities? What are the appropriate comments to make in response to Hamas/Islamic Jihad, et al’s stated goals to obliterate Israel and wage jihad?

What would the appropriate response be to other Islamist atrocities, like the current ethnic cleansing being waged by Islamist Arabs against blacks in the Sudan? Would you consider current Islamist campaigns of mass murder to be a ‘hatefest? and if so, what are the appropriate words to say in response?

Posted by: mary at April 14, 2004 02:55 PM

Picked at random, from a commentor on the post in question:

I am viewing this through the prism of Colin Fucking Powell, a sellout disgrace that happens to be black. If lawn ornament on the White House grounds happens to describe his fucking ass, then so be it. He's a disgrace, and he's earned a disgraceful label.
-Theoria

In defense of the thread, a majority of the people commenting seem to think the term "Uncle Tom" was a mistake, but there are quite a few who toe the Theoria line.

It wouldn't have been hard for Kos to say "the kind of racially charged rhetoric used in the diary entry does more to harm progressivism than help it". (In other words, actually defining what is repugnant.) He could have then added "But in the tradition of liberalism, this is a forum for free discussion, and I will not censor speech." And with that, Kos could have shown both moral and ethical integrity.

But no, he chose to take the "Look! Look! I'm being oppressed!" route.

Hipocrite, you attempt to sidestep my points about Kos' inability to be critical of his own community, and his knee-jerk retreat to the language of victimology. I may have gone too far in describing these as general features of the certain strains of Leftist thought. (After all, some of the commenter's on the thread are giving Soj grief over his demagoguery).

On the other hand, you're doing your best to illustrate my original thesis.

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 14, 2004 03:44 PM

Mark: Hipocrite, you attempt to sidestep my points about Kos' inability to be critical of his own community...

Hipocrite gets very very angry if a liberal criticizes another liberal. It doesn't make any difference if the critic is right. Such behavior gives "ammunition" to "the enemy."

I've seen his comments on liberal blogs where he "outs" the blogger as a right-wing wolf in sheep's clothing.

Understand that about him and he's easier to figure out.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 03:49 PM

Armchair Psyconalize much?

That's just not true.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 14, 2004 04:13 PM

Hipocrite,

I'm not psychoanalyzing you. I'm telling Mark what I've seen you do here and elsewhere so he can understand who he's dealing with.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 04:26 PM

The cause is too pure for anything other than victory or victimization.

Mark,

the Liberal cause IS pure, in the same way religion is pure. In fact, I consider it a religion because it's faith-based and not intellectual. It's about feeling good, even if it will get people killed. That's why they view conservatives as evil, whereas we just view them as silly, or dangerous.

Take for instance the last election in Spain. "No to war" was the response to the Madrid bombings. It feels good to be for peace, naturally. But any rational individual would have known that caving into terrorist pressure, as the Spaniards did, would only cause MORE deaths, not less, by emboldening the terrorists. Behold now as the hostages in Iraq are used as leverage against their governments. One Italian was murdered today---fruit of the Madrid election, and fruit of the Liberal religion of peace. They get to feel good about themselves because they voted for "peace." But I hold every single one of those socialist spaniards responsible for the death of those hostages, because they voted with their stupid hearts rather than with their heads.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 04:37 PM

I got psyconalized once and was misdignozed as a parranyad scherzophreniac.

Posted by: Zhombre at April 14, 2004 05:55 PM

Kos doesn't get a pass from me if this is merely a 'diary' entry. If you provide a forum then you have a duty of care to police it, unless you explicitly declare it to be a free-for-all (in which case its utility is likely to be severely diminished). I don't see Zúniga's diary system as anything more, qualitatively, than a fancy-schmancy comments system, and if I used hateful racist epithets in a comment on this site I would expect Michael Totten to sanction me. Pleading volume of traffic as an excuse doesn't wash. If you can't devote the necessary resources to providing a service then don't provide it. Putting the most generous interpretation on it that I can, failure to monitor such things is tacit approval of them. Obviously, a darker explanation also springs to mind.

Posted by: David Gillies at April 14, 2004 08:29 PM

Diaries don't appear on the main page of Kos's site unless they are "promoted" (which is pretty rare). They are NOTHING like regular blog posts and are more like "comments", but just to the "blog" in general instead of to a specific thread. The "diary" service on Kos is more similar to hosting a lot of private little blogs for all of the site's readers. In fact, diaries are even MORE autonomous than comments because diaries are NOT subject to the rating system (to separate signal from noise) which regular thread comments are subject to and therefore are completely unfiltered.

Holding Kos responsible for a diarist's diary would be like holding blogspot responsible for a posting on randomblogger.blogspot.com, especially since there is NO editorial control exercised over the diaries. Hell, for all anyone knows, a random troll trying to smear the site could have posted an inflammatory diary using a psuedonym and then posted an "outraged" commentary on it on their own blog, emailing it to well known bloggers in an attempt to get linked. I'm not saying this is the case, but it is certainly possible (or possible in the future) and it's a huge reason why its dumb to hold the parent site, which has a no editorial control policy, responsible for what is essentially user commentary.

And Kos has a job. Most people with too much time on their hands can barely read half the diaries. It would be silly to expect a blog with that kind of traffic, done one one's spare time, to have the kind of editorial control a newspaper or a smaller blog has. The diaries are a free-for-all. THAT'S THE POINT.

Posted by: emjaycue at April 14, 2004 09:45 PM

I agree with emjaycue. I'm sorry I dragged Kos into this in the first place.

I don't want to get smacked down for something written in my comments section. But as David Gillies mentioned above, I would sanction racist commentary. I kicked one person out of here without warning for saying 250,000 Bosnian Muslims were "stinking terrorists" who deserved to be murdered by Serbs.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 14, 2004 10:02 PM

Bosnian Muslims were "stinking terrorists" who deserved to be murdered by Serbs.

If there is such a thing as the moderate muslim of fable, it would be the Bosnian muslims.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 11:01 PM

MJT:

Don't blame you for wishing you'd passed on this. The contrast & compare with LGF must be an uncomfortable one. Do you have anything to say about the equally (and much more voluminous) hateful stuff over there?

I know it's a tough spot, as Charles was my friend too. I wish he still was, but my decision on LGF cost me that friendship.

David Giles:

By your standard, Johnson should be held accountable for the commenters at LGF, yes?

As I commented at Roger Simon's place, I don't think either of them should be held accountable for the hate speech of commenters as long as the "free speech zone" is applied equally.

I unltimately felt that it wasn't at LGF, and if Kos were to begin to behave similarly I'd stop reading and supporting him as well.

I may be a paleo/progressive/Kryptonite/Bleeding Heart Liberal, but I'm a free speech absolutist fist.

Posted by: Brian Linse at April 15, 2004 02:31 AM

Markus,

What they hate are right-wing Americans, particularly those with political power. Which makes them no different from you, with your accusations of treason.

No different than me? Have I ever hoped for the deaths of American soldiers like Nick Kristof's readers?

http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/editorialsoped/opedcolumnists/kristofresponds/index.html?offset=4&fid=.f3beae7/4

You think I'm a right-winger, but I'm not. I'm a liberal and soon-to-be former Democrat thoroughly disgusted by the absolute corruption of the Democratic party. Just like Gerard Van der Leun:

http://www.americandigest.org/mt-archives/001113.html

Nothing in the New York Post article that you referenced above (at benador associates website) corroborates your claim that the Madrid bombings and the Iraqi insurgency attacks were planned at the 25th anniversary of the Iranian Revolution events that took place in February which were described in the article, which was of course written in late January. You'll need more solid evidence than that to make the case for Iranian regime change.

You don't think we need regime change in Iran? If not, you're hopeless. I won't bother with the litany of reasons here because any idiot should know them. As for the February meeting, I'm obviously speculating as to what went on at the Global Terrorist Convention. The Iranians didn't issue a press release with specific details. What I do know is that prior to the convention, the terrorists had no coherent strategy for dealing with the presence of American troops on the eastern and western borders of Iran. After the meeting they did. What do you think they were doing there? Maybe they were trying to find the "root cause" for "why they hate us."

It's called "connecting the dots." That's what the Democrats are accusing the Bush administation of failing to do in the 9/11 Commission Star Chamber. Why do you want to ignore dots when connecting leads to the conclusion that the regime in Iran must be changed? Why is it that people like you and Hippocrite always end up as apologists for despots? Doesn't this bother you in any way?

Your comments about Kerry in Kansas City were irrelevent, baseless slander.

Pat Curley confirmed my account. The only question now is why Kerry lied about his participation and who is it that broke into Nicosia's garage and stole Kerry's FBI files.

Posted by: HA at April 15, 2004 04:32 AM

HA, you anonymous coward, you are a joke.

Posted by: Hipocrite at April 15, 2004 04:52 AM

Soj may have written the offensive piece but it still flies under the Daily Kos moniker. If Kos' name is on it, he owns it. If other people write on his blog, Kos has the ability to edit views that cross the line, as Soj's surely did. That Kos did nothing, not even a criticism in the comments section, speaks poorly for Kos.

Posted by: Bird Dog at April 15, 2004 05:56 AM

Personally, I think Kos is slime. He's already proved it. But just because somebody goes on his site and posts something offensive doesn't mean you should attribute it to him. This argument is getting really stupid and boring.

Posted by: David at April 15, 2004 08:22 AM

HA - like Mr. Kristof and countless other liberals and members of the Democratic party, I'm appaled that people would hope for more US casualities in Iraq. Lots of people opposed to the war are convinced it is/will be ruinous to America, but wishing for such ruin to occur is crossing the line.

Having said that, you consider our country to be in a state of war, while accusing Democratic party leaders and others who disagree with you of treason. Treason during wartime being a capital crime -- I find your views scarier than the rantings of the radical left.

As to the suggestion that Kerry committed a felony by declining to report a criminal conspiracy to assasinate members of Congress, I'll defer to the judgement of J. Edgar Hoover's FBI, as noted in March 22 Los Angelas Times article "FBI Shadowed Kerry During Activist Era":

"In 1971, in the months after the Navy veteran and decorated war hero argued before Congress against continued U.S. involvement in the conflict, the FBI stepped up its infiltration of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the protest group Kerry helped direct, the files show.

The FBI documents indicate that wherever Kerry went, agents and informants were following — including appearances at VVAW-sponsored antiwar events in Washington; Kansas City, Mo.; Oklahoma City; and Urbana, Ill. The FBI recorded the content of his speeches and took photographs of him and fellow activists, and the dispatches were filed to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover and President Nixon.

The files contain no information or suggestion that Kerry broke any laws. And a 1972 memorandum on the FBI's decision to end its surveillance of him said the agency had discovered "nothing whatsoever to link the subject with any violent activity."

Can you think of any reason that Nixon and Hoover would end surveillance if they had something on Kerry? And if they didn't have anything on Kerry, why do you and other nutjobs have any valid reason to bring it up now?

I support regime change in Iran by Iranians. I oppose it by Americans. So do most Americans, and most of the US government, particularly our military. One of the most positive things about our decision to invade Iraq and take out Saadam, so far, is the way that Iran (and Syria) have moved as a result to have better relations with the United States. This explains why Iran has played a key role in mediating an end to the Sadr crisis this week, and why it has signaled that it prefers his more moderate Shia rivals. I am encouraged by such actions on the part of the Iranian governments, and I support the members of the Bush Administration who doubtlessly will be signaling to their appreciation as well.

The event in February was not called the Global Terrorism Convention, as you capitalization of those words dishonestly implied. It was a public celebration of the Iranian revolution's 25th anniversary, and I'd speculate what attendees mostly did was listen to or make a bunch of ridiculous speeches, pray five times a day, maybe screw some prostitutes and drink some good liquor on the side. This is not say that planning of terror attacks is not going on in Iran -- it probably is, just as it is probably going on in London and maybe even your town or city, as we speak.

Posted by: Markus Rose at April 15, 2004 09:08 AM

Sorry to flog my blog, but my take on Kerry and Oklahoma City is here:

http://www.whatsapundit.com/archives/000044.html

What's odd is Kerry is going to get blasted for denying that he was at the Oklahoma City meeting, not for what he did there. (It's not the crime, it's the cover up). A real tactical blunder on his part.

Posted by: Mark Poling at April 15, 2004 10:03 AM

Brian: Do you have anything to say about the equally (and much more voluminous) hateful stuff over there? I know it's a tough spot, as Charles was my friend too. I wish he still was, but my decision on LGF cost me that friendship.

Let's just say I don't read the comments on Charles' Web site. There are comments sections on other blogs I like on both sides of the political divide that I similarly steer clear of.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 15, 2004 11:30 AM

Hipocrite: HA, you anonymous coward, you are a joke.

Living up to your name, I see.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 15, 2004 11:31 AM

Kos is not entirely free of fault. He manages to find time to delete diary entries with positive comments about Bush. It's not the same as writing it or even endorsing it, but it does show where his concerns lie.

Praising the "enemy" = delete.
Racism attacking the enemy = "questionable"

So at the very least, he's determined that Republicans, or perhaps the Bush administration, is worse than racism. I think that's a worthy fact to remember about Kos.

Posted by: mj at April 15, 2004 01:50 PM

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Posted by: Bob at April 15, 2004 03:16 PM

Hipocrite,

HA, you anonymous coward, you are a joke.

Why would posting anonymously make me a coward? In order to be cowardly, I must fear something. Should I have something to fear by posting my name and contact? Would I risk being threatened? Do YOU feel I should be threatened? Do YOU want to threaten me?

Posted by: HA at April 16, 2004 03:29 AM

Markus Rose,

And if they didn't have anything on Kerry, why do you and other nutjobs have any valid reason to bring it up now?

Why did Kerry lie about his participation in the meeting? Why doesn't he provide any evidence that he reported the meeting to the FBI? Why were Kerry's FBI files stolen from Nicosia? Why would Kerry even considering hiring Scott Camil - the man who proposed the assasination plot - for his Florida campaign staff?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37577

Why do YOU think that a man with Kerry's appalling track record is fit to be president?

Having said that, you consider our country to be in a state of war, while accusing Democratic party leaders and others who disagree with you of treason.

I don't question people's patriotism for disagreeing with me. I question them for making statements such as this one that YOU made:

Yes, I indeed am highly dubious of the principle that American sovereignity is more important than furthering universal human values.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/000278.html

It is clear that your highest allegiance isn't to America. You've admitted it. So spare me your false indignation. Now I understand why you think Kerry is fit to be President.

The event in February was not called the Global Terrorism Convention, as you capitalization of those words dishonestly implied.

Are you always so obtuse? I captialized it in the same way that one might capitalize the Richard Mellon Scaife sponsored Vast Right Wing Conspiracy or the George Soros sponsored Vast Left Wing Conspiracy. Get a grip you dolt.

Posted by: HA at April 16, 2004 03:58 AM

HA -- call me whatever you want --I find it all to be a big hoot. What would you call a German citizen circa 1939 who refused to support Hitler's war policies and made the claim that there were more important things in the world than German sovereignty? Like I said, there are more important things in the world than American sovereignty. America is worth defending as long as America remains just.

John Kerry was a voice of moderation in the VVAW movement. He resigned from its leadership when the group became more extreme, although he may have continued to attend its events and meetings. If Scott Camil said something illegal in the Kansas City meeting I'm sure the FBI informers would have passed this along (probably directly to the Committee to Reelect the President, aka CREEP). Frankly, I don't give a damn what Kerrry did or didn't do in 1971, and I don't think that too many of your fellow citizens do either, HA.

Posted by: Markus Rose at April 16, 2004 07:41 AM

Markus,

Like I said, there are more important things in the world than American sovereignty. America is worth defending as long as America remains just.

There is nothing more important than preserving our sovereignty. The things you believe in DEPEND on American sovereignty and that will continue to be the case as long as we adhere to the principles we were founded on. And even if we fail to adhere to these principles, we must still defend our nation against EXTERNAL enemies so that we can restore our principles on our own. Nobody else in the world adheres to the princples we are founded on. If we surrender our sovereignty, we surrender our princples. Perhaps forever and for all mankind.

I'll give you credit for being honest. Not many lefties openly admit their failure to hold allegiance to our nation. Maybe one day that honesty will lead to to the realization that the principles you believe in cannot be achieved by the means you believe in. On the contrary, your means of achieving your principles put them in peril.

Posted by: HA at April 17, 2004 05:21 AM

I was at dailykos for about 6 months -- more for the primary/election news.....but recently I noticed that more and more post anti-American bullshit, e.g., we're the war criminals in Iraq; we must pull out immediately, al-Sadr has the support of millions!!, etc. etc.

Kos' 'screw them' was just the tip off, I'm afraid --- I'm convinced his site is dominated by socialists and communists -- the 'Blame America, AND ONLY AMERICA, First' crowd, and I say this as a happy liberal Democrat -- I have NOTHING in common with those folks.

When I posted diaries decrying 'socialism' in North Korea, or contrasting the Socialist' position on Iraq versus the Democrats, or pointing out that International ANSWER is a Commie front, etc., etc., I was summarily rated down and eventually banned as an 'untrusted user' -- so much for 'free speech' -- LOL

The Left is like a leech attaching itself to the Democratic Party, much to its detriment.

Posted by: Philly at April 17, 2004 10:38 AM

HA, American sovereignty, what a joke:

Euro Brash -- Why George W. Bush takes orders from Pascal Lamy by Nicholas Kulish, Washington Monthyly, April 2004:

"In late February, Lamy paid a visit to Washington to meet with senior members of Congress and delivered an audacious demand: If Congress did not eliminate a large tax break for American exporters by March 1, the European Union would slap $4 billion in retaliatory trade sanctions against the United States. When it comes to taxes, President Bush hasn't been swayed by angry Democrats, a burgeoning federal deficit, worried economists, a stagnant job market, or moderates of his own party. But faced with Lamy's threat, he caved. A few days after the Exocet's visit, the president called upon Congress to quickly bring America's tax code in line with the E.U. Commissioner's demands. House Speaker Dennis Hastert summed up his reaction to the pressured legislative changes at an earlier news conference: 'My gut feeling about this is we fought a revolution 230 years ago to stop Europeans from telling us how we have to tax in this country, and it puts the hair up on the back of my neck that we have to consider this at all. But we have to do it.'"

Posted by: Markus Rose at April 20, 2004 06:59 AM

Markus

American sovereignty, what a joke:

I'm not laughing.

Posted by: HA at April 20, 2004 07:16 PM

Markos Zúniga is himself an ethnic minority. He, of all people,

Naw, that's not patronizing at all.

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Essays

Terror and Liberalism
Paul Berman, The American Prospect

The Men Who Would Be Orwell
Ron Rosenbaum, The New York Observer

Looking the World in the Eye
Robert D. Kaplan, The Atlantic Monthly

In the Eigth Circle of Thieves
E.L. Doctorow, The Nation

Against Rationalization
Christopher Hitchens, The Nation

The Wall
Yossi Klein Halevi, The New Republic

Jihad Versus McWorld
Benjamin Barber, The Atlantic Monthly

The Sunshine Warrior
Bill Keller, The New York Times Magazine

Power and Weakness
Robert Kagan, Policy Review

The Coming Anarchy
Robert D. Kaplan, The Atlantic Monthly

England Your England
George Orwell, The Lion and the Unicorn