April 07, 2004

Fighting Dirty

US Marines were attacked by insurgents hiding in a mosque in Fallujah. So they called in an airstrike and took out the mosque’s outer wall. (I don’t know what “outer wall” means. Did the bombs penetrate the mosque? Or did they explode outside it?) The Washington Post reports up to 40 people were killed.

I’d really like to say we shouldn’t be blowing up mosques, “outer wall” or not. But using a mosque as a fox hole is a war crime. Taking the mosque out is not.

Most Christians, if not nearly all of them, would shudder at using a church in this way. I’m not a Christian anymore, but I know if I were I would think it a desecration.

The insurgents thought they could hide in a mosque and fire at us with impunity because we’re too “nice” to shoot back. They were wrong. It’s about time they learned that.

They may continue to use mosques as shields, even so. What a great propaganda coup for them. Look at the Americans. They are the enemies of Islam. They kill innocent people while they pray.

We may have to make a decision. Is it worth the loss of PR points to deny terrorists and insurgents their safe house?

Will mainstream Iraqis blame the thugs who desecrate the mosque in the first place? Or will they believe the worst about us and think we’re out to get innocent people? I don’t know enough about Iraqi culture to say. If this goes down badly for us, whether it’s right and fair or not (I’d say not), we may have to respect the mosques more than their congregates do.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at April 7, 2004 10:23 PM
Comments

I think that it should be avoided at all costs. When we do feel it is necessary, we should get as many reporters and cameras there as possible, to prove that we did it only because the terrorists were using the Mosques as safe havens. Its just like the hospitals used during the war as ammo depots. Avoid as much as possible, but when necessary don't hesitate.

The good news is that if they do feel that they are safe, the terrorists will flock to Mosques to hide. In which case we can cordon off the Mosques, trapping the terrorists in a small area. Hopefully this will make things easier for us. It will also allow us time to get the reporters on scene. In fact, we could probably arrange it so that we did it Live. Let Al Jazeera try and twist that to their liking.

Posted by: FH at April 7, 2004 10:41 PM

BTW, need I mention what the Jacksonian view on this is?

Posted by: FH at April 7, 2004 10:41 PM

FH: BTW, need I mention what the Jacksonian view on this is?

BANG.

Need I mention that I am not a Jacksonian?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 7, 2004 10:51 PM

No, you don't. I tend to be a mix, Jacksonian/Wilsonian. I guess you can call me a pragmatic Wilsonian. I am less squeemish about using violence than most Wilsonians are, and less enamoured of the UN. However, I do like the ideas behind it. My biggest problem with the UN is that it exists. And as long as it exists, you can't promote a more effective and proper replacement.

And while not trying to be too picky, I think the Jacksonian Response would have been:

Boom!

Boom! Boom! Boom! Boom!
...
Boom!

:)

Posted by: FH at April 7, 2004 10:56 PM

It will also allow us time to get the reporters on scene. In fact, we could probably arrange it so that we did it Live.

If an Al Jazeera audience were watching a battle between lightly-armed Iraqis defending a mosque from an attack by heavily armed Americans, where do you think their sympathies would lie?

Posted by: Mork at April 7, 2004 11:07 PM

Michael,

It is important to recognize that the portions of international law that forbid the use of religious shrines as places for combatants to do anything but pray or administer humanitarian aid (i.e., used as a medical facility which are also protected structures) are Western legal constructs and were written in the days when it was assumed that combat was only between nation-states who would fight with these restrictions as a guidepost. The current enemy is not so inclined, so while we should not abandon our own moral standards, we should also not put unnecessary restrictions on ourselves.

Our guys are damned if they do and damned if they don't. This is a classic case of choosing the least bad decision.

Assuming that the strategic results of an action always outweigh the tactical merits, we should almost never attack a mosque, except in the most extreme circumstances, even though we are permitted to by our own concept of international law. This also assumes that this type of violation is a rare abberation by the enemy.

However, that is based on the assumption that the enemy shares our values. They do not and we will see them continue to desecrate religious shrines by using them as battle positions. These are not rare occassions. We must be careful about layering our values on the enemy.

While no doubt the bad guys will try to spin it for propaganda purposes and we will possibly suffer some loss moral legitimacy amongst some of our own people (especially if we continue with our weak information campaign), in reality the willingness to attack the mosques, again only after the enemy clearly uses it in violation of our accepted laws of war, sends a message to the enemy that we are just as ruthless as them, we are not weak and we are committed to winning. In the long-run this will likely save lives both ours and theirs. Of course the usual arguments about proportionality are relevant. Using an AGM-65 Maverick missile on a single sniper in a mosque is foolish, but not if the bad guys have 20-30 fighters inside engaging our guys.

Sometimes, we can be too concerned with appearing humanitarian and that can make us seem weak in the eyes of the enemy and actually prolong the conflict.

No easy answer. each action has to be judged individually.

Posted by: Chris at April 7, 2004 11:27 PM

I think psychological warfare is the way to go.
Leave the mosque as the last remaining target and clean up the surrounding areas.

Do what Israel did in Bethlehem. Surround the church and play 140dB irritating noise out of a giant loudspeaker, around the clock. When they emerge, if they don't have their hands above their head, get a sniper to shoot them.

Posted by: Jono at April 7, 2004 11:34 PM

FH

BTW, need I mention what the Jacksonian view on this is?

You know as I was reading MJT's excellent topic and that is the exact question I had in my mind. Even though I am a Wilsonian Neo-con to be sure, I do believe Neo-con philosophy allows for Jacksonian gut level reasoning to take hold when practical.

Even though Michael said "Bang!" which is obviously one of the more expected responses of a betrayed Jacksonian, I do believe it all depends on our reasoned reaction and the way we carry that action. What I mean is that if we are going to pussy foot around and take unnecessary casualties to protect a Mosque as enemies hide within taking shooting practice at our soldiers (that is like hiding behind women and children damn cowards!) a Jacksonian in disgust would just say "Oh the hell with this let's just go home if we aren’t serious." If that is the Presidents reaction than call me Jacksonian. If the President makes his case calling them to be the cowards that they are than he needs to do just what FH said in his first post…

we should get as many reporters and cameras there as possible, to prove that we did it only because the terrorists were using the Mosques as safe havens

This will not be enough to overcome Al Jazeera and Co., but it is mainly for U.S., Allies, and Iraqi consumption. We should clear the perimeter of the Mosque, bust the door down, and flush them out, the whole damn Mosque room to room, and kill or throw into Gitmo every one of the SOB’s. We need to guarantee a huge message or two gets through to the different Ayatollahs, if Ayatollah Sadr is known guilty and captured I don’t care what the reaction, tell Ayatollah Sistani and others get in line or get into Gitmo. The Jacksonian public would prefer to see full fledged civil War among the Iraqi’s until they get their fill rather than see Americans die by the dozens because we don’t want to offend the indefensible actions of Sadr and the like.

I would like to add that if things deteriorate too far we need to warn those we need to warn and then take a wrecking ball to the two or three main trouble areas. They have a choice, cooperate as we do our best to help, or take advantage bringing chaos, inspiring a visit from the wrecking ball. Those are the Jacksonian alternatives that would continue to build Iraq.

The third Jacksonian alternative is the most disasterous. If we aren't willing to be drastic, then get out of Iraq or get the hell out George Bush. President Bush you are either going to be somewhere in between LBJ and Truman (more honest than LBJ to belong fully in his company) or on Mt. Rushmore, history will not treat you as a neutral figure, partial failure or greatness, take your pick. I hope for the later, I pray for you to continue in your overachieving ways.

Posted by: Samuel at April 7, 2004 11:56 PM

Samuel, if we are only there to impose our will, what has been the point of the exercise?

Don't you understand that if if we end up controlling Iraq through the ruthless use of force and are hated by the Iraqi people, we have gained NOTHING for all that this war has cost us in lives, dollars, credibility and opprobrium?

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 12:03 AM

That is an excellent point Mork. Indeed you are right. That assumes, however, that is how we do end up leaving things as. If that is the case, I think that we most likely failed. But that is no the case, not yet. The Sunnis are a problem that won't be easy to solve at all. But the Shia goons who follow Sadr are a minority at this point, and eliminating them early in the game will make it easier for a democratic transition later. Don't think of Sadr as a religious leader, think of him as a Mob boss. His thugs intimidate and coerce people into "showing support." He is a wannabe Saddam. Crushing him will be a huge boon to the moderates. There are plenty of decent Iraqis who want only to get on with their lives and determine their own fates.

Posted by: FH at April 8, 2004 12:11 AM

FH

All true neo-cons have a Jacksonian edge to them. What I mean is the Wilsonian is the idealogical and the Jacksonian is the pragmatic. That is the difference between nation building liberals and nation building conservatives (neo-cons). Liberals almost always want to build, Neo-cons are much more apt to employ Jacksonian wrecking balls when necessary, hence the term "Hard-Wilsonian". Jacksonians can be appealed to on both sides. Democrats are going to play to the one that brings disgust in Jacksonians causing them to turn on George Bush, Democrats get to make that call only if Bush punts. If he punts he will probably lose me, something I thought I would never say.

Posted by: Samuel at April 8, 2004 12:14 AM

There are plenty of decent Iraqis who want only to get on with their lives and determine their own fates.

No doubt that's the case, FH, but that doesn't help us much if they are merely spectators in a running battle between the U.S. military and any number of armed organizations that see this as a god-given opportunity to bloody America's nose.

And the longer they have to suffer instability, lawlessness and civilian casualities, the fewer Iraqis will wish us well, or be prepared to assist.

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 12:18 AM

Mork: And the longer they have to suffer instability, lawlessness and civilian casualities, the fewer Iraqis will wish us well, or be prepared to assist.

That's what the insurgency is betting on. And that's why we will destroy it.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 8, 2004 12:28 AM

Mork, Let's be clear. Sadr's beef is not that we are colonizing Iraq or creating a puppet state. Sadr's beef is not that we're installing a new dictator. Sadr's beef is that we're not installing him as the new dictator. The Sunni of Fallujah? Same difference.

Stated another way: Sadr doesn't think we're going to stay and steal everything. Sadr doesn't think we'll reneg on our promise to create democracy. Sadr believes us, that's his problem. In the Iraqi future he believes we will enable, Sadr is a two bit minor Ayatolah with a great family history, no title and no seniority. In the Iraqi future that he is trying to seize, he's the next Khomeini.

The Sunni in Fallujah have the same problem - minority status and substantially diminished clout in the new Iraq.

There are many, many serious people in Iraq, who also believed us, who are willing to stake their future on a liberal democratic Iraq. You haven't heard much about them the past week 'cause their not shooting up the place.

If we let Sadr and the Fallujah Sunni succeed in tearing Iraq apart, we will have betrayed every Iraqi who trusted us when we told them we would enable a liberal democratic future for Iraq.

So we will prevent Sadr and his ilk from succeeding. You can call that "imposing our will", if you like. I don't give a rats ass.

Posted by: lewy14 at April 8, 2004 12:31 AM

Mork

Samuel, if we are only there to impose our will, what has been the point of the exercise?

Mork, we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan to impose our will. That was the point of our exercise. The real question is can we inspire the will and confidence to see this through on both our and the Iraqi’s part. I believe we should be drastic. We dropped two Atomic bombs on a nation of Buddists that worshiped an Emperor (I am not advocating dropping an atomic bomb) They are democratic to this day. Democracy is the one system that has the best chance of being imposed because it is the only system that actually works. That is why neo-cons believe one generation of nation building is a minimum, usually more is needed. That way a generation or more has lived under a democratic system.

Don't you understand that if if we end up controlling Iraq through the ruthless use of force and are hated by the Iraqi people, we have gained NOTHING for all that this war has cost us in lives, dollars, credibility and opprobrium?

Tell that to the Germans and the Japanese. I don’t share your worldview. History is with us if we finish the task, no matter how ugly. Notice I didn’t say if we do it right, mistakes are always made. We need to finish the job period. I guess I respectfully reject the premise of your questions.

Posted by: Samuel at April 8, 2004 12:31 AM

Michael: I would love to believe that, but I see no historical precedent or present evidence to suggest that the U.S. military will achieve that result by itself.

And I also note that nothing the war party has told us about Iraq so far has turned out to be true. Really, Michael, when it comes to the campaign in Iraq, how have your expectations played out so far?

I wonder what it would take for you to start questioning your assumptions.

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 12:43 AM

Samuel, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but we didn't fight the Germans or the Japanese with the purpose of turning them into deomcracies.

We fought them because they decided to wage war against us. By beating them, we won our security.

Iraq's a little different. So far, we haven't achieved anything we didn't have before, but we've lost nearly 500 lives, spent hundreds of billions of dollars, turned our allies against us and exacerbated Arab hatred against us.

So, what's going to make all of that worthwhile?

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 12:49 AM

Mork: Really, Michael, when it comes to the campaign in Iraq, how have your expectations played out so far?

It is going better than I expected.

It took six years to de-Nazify Germany. My grandfather was there doing his part. My mother went to an American school in Germany when she was a child because her father was there to hold the line against the fascists.

This kind of work is not easy. I had every reason in the world to know that well in advance.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 8, 2004 01:03 AM

The Arabs liked us better before? Uh, as I remember it, the US has pretty much been the Great Satan since the Iranian Revolution of 1979.

Posted by: miklos rosza at April 8, 2004 01:12 AM

It is going better than I expected.

Wow. I am astonished.

If you think this is going well ... in other words if you anticipated that the cost would be as high as it clearly will be, I can't imagine how you thought that it was our best possible use of those resources at the time the decision was made. Honestly, I can't fathom it.

I wonder, then, if you can answer the second question I posed: hypothetically speaking, what set of facts would have to arise for you to conclude that it wasn't going well, or that we had been mistaken to go in?

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 01:12 AM

Mork: Wow. I am astonished.

Did you read the rest of my post? I don't have any personal experience pacifying a fascist country, but my family does.

hypothetically speaking, what set of facts would have to arise for you to conclude that it wasn't going well

A popular anti-American uprising. (Do note the second word in that sentence.)

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 8, 2004 01:18 AM

Mork

I know your question was directed at Michael, but since I entered the Iraqi War vehemently against it, I think any reasonable Lefty has to understand they have no credibility and so much more to answer for when it comes to questioning positions, inaccurate predictions etc... Thousands of body bags, fighting in the streets of Baghdad rivaling the taking of Berlin or even Stalingrad!

On the Right, the most inaccurate predictions have been more accurate than the best from the Left. This is the same for Afghanistan, First War with Iraq, the Cold War, Reagan and the Soviet Union. I will take your challenge serious when I see the anti-war types question their own inaccurate predictions and pronouncements. Of course the Left likes to hold the Right to exclusive levels of accountability. Ironically this implicitly testifies to the public at deep gut "Jacksonian" levels that only the Right can be taken seriously on such issues. As a former Lefty I resent that. You do the Left a great disservice, you flatter the Right by showing them they are worthy to be held accountable at exclusive levels. Instead of trying to disprove the right the left needs to prove themselves worthy to be trusted.

Also isn’t it ironic that the people you would cynically question are those who formerly held your positions, I mean haven’t we already been more considerate and deliberating than you or others that stand on the same political dime today they did yesterday? I mean I voted Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Gore, and am leaning towards Bush my first Republican ever… Michael voted for Clinton and Nader and is leaning Bush, and you imply we might be incapable of introspection? Do I sense a little projecting here?

Posted by: Samuel at April 8, 2004 01:26 AM

A popular anti-American uprising.

So, if we had to keep 200,000-odd troops on the ground for the next three years, suffering 500-1000 dead per year and spending an additional $100 billion per year on non-military reconstruction aid, only to leave behind a popularly-elected Shia Islamacist government and an incipient civil war, you'd still think that the whole thing was a success?

You still wouldn't be able to think of a more effective way to use those resources to make America safer?

I wonder if you've read Tom Friedman's column today.

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 01:27 AM

I've never voted for any Republican, but I'll go for Bush over Kerry. And I too, like Michael, think things are going okay. I thought it would be 2-3 years before things stablized at all. It's better that al-Sadr does this now.

Posted by: miklos rosza at April 8, 2004 01:34 AM

Mork

Mork this is the third time you have stated the obvious in your own statements. I mean really…Samuel, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but we didn't fight the Germans or the Japanese with the purpose of turning them into deomcracies.

Well did we originally fight Iraq to make them a Democracy? Man how thick can one be? I’ll use your flip words of “I'm not sure if you're aware of this” we have been at War with Iraq since 1991. After expelling Iraq from Kuwait we implemented a cease-fire. We did not endeavor to make a democracy with them either did we? This cease fire bore conditions that the Iraqis breached. The rekindling of this War was initiated by Iraq’s refusal to allow inspectors as well as they shot at our aircrafts in the no-fly zones. Our actions against Iraq did not need UN approval as it was lawful, and fully recognized as a valid response to a breached ceasefire under international law, something lost on the more thick headed lefties. This time around we decided to fix it the same way as Germany and Japan because that worked…

We fought them because they decided to wage war against us. By beating them, we won our security.

Why are you making my arguments for me? Iraq breached a ceasefire so they decided to rekindle the War. I guess after Clinton Iraqi’s felt laws weren’t meant to be taken serious international or not.

Mork, your statements are just as applicable to Iraq. Also, are you implying that Japan and Germany becoming democracies was their choice or an accident? We imposed it on them as well. Man go read some history you are approaching levels of silliness.

Posted by: Samuel at April 8, 2004 01:51 AM

Samuel, if you have me pinned as a lefty, you have me pinned way wrong. I suspect that I'm to the right of Michael on every issue of philosphy. My belief that the war in Iraq (which I initially supported) is a profound mistake are exclusively practical ... except for the fact that I get somewhat animated on the principle that our leaders have an obligation to be truthful and avoid playing politics with questions of security.

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 01:51 AM

Mork

You are making the lefty arguments I used to be one bigtime. I have a hard time believing you voted for Bush, you don't sound conservative to me. And Michael is a liberal still, I have decided not to be, being to the right of him on most issues outside of war doesn't say much.

Posted by: Samuel at April 8, 2004 01:59 AM

Samuel - please explain to me how any of the arguments I make is "lefty" in any sense other than that they reflect disagreement with a Republican president.

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 02:04 AM

A popular anti-American uprising.

Michael, perhaps you need to see this.

Posted by: Mork at April 8, 2004 02:21 AM

Michael, perhaps you need to see this.

That Times article makes the case that the "resistance" goes beyond Al-Sadr among the Shiites and beyond former Baath party officials among Sunnis (this we already knew) and that these people are now joining Al-Sadr's "insurgency." There is a diverse campaign to stop the reforms in Iraq -- it's a free for all in which fascists, Islamo-fascists, pan Arabists, are vying for the opportunity to enslave the Iraqi people yet again. And a certain percentage of the public are going to buy into the recruiting efforts of these bastards. The Times chooses to spin that story as if there is a popular uprising but does not back this up with anything other than its own assumptions. A certain small percentage of Shiites will want a theocracy, as polls have shown, but the majority want some form of democratic reform and see the terrorism and sabotage for what it is. People are scared to death -- read Zeyad for a taste of this -- to speak out against Al-Sadr.

There is a difference between the crisis of a large and possibly unifying insurgency and a popular uprising -- a world-altering difference -- a difference that separates fact from fiction. The Times seems not to make it their business to parse out little distinctions like this.

Posted by: Jeremy Brown at April 8, 2004 03:32 AM

Mork,

To be blunt, the New York Times has damaged thier credibility to the point that they're little better than the Weekly World News when it comes to coverage of the war. The article says the CIA doubts that Hizbollah is taking an active part in this uprising, but also says that, yes, they are present in large numbers. What, they're just taking a holiday in Iraq? Letting their hair down for a bit? Give me a break!

Posted by: Cybrludite at April 8, 2004 03:36 AM

Michael is right about the de-nazification process in Germany. Actually we did it more through legal means, because we cared less about world opinion then, we used a passive process.

So we could do an 6-10 year process of De-Baathication, or De-Islamfascism. So we provoked who we knew to be a big time trouble maker. Al-Sadr, he also realized he would not win the election come June. So we close his paper, and he realizes he is about to be marginalized. Then the Baathist in Falajah get a little antcy. Sadr sees this as a chance to get the power he craves.

So now, we have an active process. The active process will be quicker, and it will injure innocent people, but it will be just as effective.

After this process, I figure 2 months at the most, boom, just in time for the Handover. Now the new government has all the reigns, police and military. With little chance of Civil War, since America has already killed most of the dissidents, they can use kid gloves. With American Bases there just in case.

That is what I see happening.

Posted by: James Stephenson at April 8, 2004 04:39 AM

Yes, the NYT article is lacking. It's an article built around two mere opinions - one an anonymous source and the other with his name given. When a reporter hears such a thing, isn't he supposed to wait and see if he can get any evidence before writing a story? Or is the NYT just trying to get us out of Iraq any way it can?

Posted by: Jim at April 8, 2004 05:11 AM

We destroyed a military bunker that, at a previous time, had been a church.

The second the first round of gunfire came from inside of that mosque, it became a military target.

If the American policy is that we won't attack mosques the terrorists will take over every mosque within their power and begin attacking from them. At that point, we will have hundreds of mosques blown apart instead of just one. By our inaction to return fire, we assure that the mosques will continue to be used as bunkers.

Iraq isn't Vietnam and Bush isn't LBJ. We are in Iraq to win and we will do whatever it takes to win. Some of it may be unpleasant, but if we want a Democratic country in the Middle East we are going to have to suck it up and do the right thing - even when the right thing isn't politically corrent.

Posted by: Roark at April 8, 2004 05:32 AM

The odd thing about Arabs is that they see themselves as either completely buff and victorious -- Saladin and all that, of course they have to go back a loooong way for examples -- or they're victims. They are never simply defeated. One need only point to the delusions Egyptians have about the 1973 war, in which they claim victory when the Soviets had to force the UN to grant a quick ceasefire before the Israelis mopped up the Egyptian army (again!) and walked into Cairo. Saddam, of course, did the same after the first Gulf War, claiming victory (huh?) after his army fell apart, died in huge numbers, surrendered to the tune of 80,000, and lost any credibility as a fighting force.

Fallujuh is the most recent instance of this. A few days ago the Iraqis in Fallujuh were pounding their chests and taunting the Americans. "Fallujuh will be the American graveyard." The Americans are now piling up the dead Iraqi fighters by the hundreds and suddenly the Iraqis are "victims." Just another day in the Middle East, home of the world's highest-grade bullshit.

Posted by: Jeffrey -- New York at April 8, 2004 06:08 AM

Once again, I reiterate: we are the good guys. And of course we have to stay the course.

Friedman's op-ed from yesterday focused on Sunni resistence only, which is much easier to understand. George Will's op-ed yesterday, pointing out the humor of the mighty US government depending on the continued good will (more or less) of the cleric Sistani, seemed to be much more on the mark. I like to think that if I was an Iraqi, I would still feel grateful toward America and toward President Bush. But perhaps the more bitter truth is that cultural ties and cultural pride are much more important motivational factors for people than we have been willing to acknowledge.

The following quote is sad. Hope it is just one anecdote, fear that it is not.

from today's Washington Post:

"Line Blurs Between Civilians, Fighters"
By Karl Vick and Anthony Shadid
Thursday, April 8, 2004; Page A01

Elsewhere in Sadr City, men sat quietly in plastic chairs lining the long, colored tent erected to receive mourners after the early morning funeral of Hashem. Among them was Jawad Kadhim, the stout, middle-aged man whose image was broadcast repeatedly around the globe when U.S. tanks first entered Sadr City almost one year ago.

Khadim was filmed walking down the street beating his shoe against a portrait of Saddam Hussein, an iconic image of liberation. A year later, he was paying his respects to his nephew, Hashem.

"He was just like us in the beginning," Khadim said of the man killed in the alley. "He was happy with the liberation of Iraq and he welcomed the Americans.

"But after what he saw from them -- the delay and the insults -- not only him but all of us looked at them differently. We started looking at them as imperialists."

Posted by: Markus Rose at April 8, 2004 07:19 AM

Michael: "I don't have any personal experience pacifying a fascist country, but my family does."

Taking on the Baathists and Hussein was pacifying a fascist country. Fighting terrorists who blow up mosques would be pacifying a fascist country. Fighting Sunni insurgents and guerrilllas in Baghdad might be argued to be pacifying a fascist country.

But when you get to this level of resistance, I think your analogy is way off. A lot of normal, everyday, anti-Baathist Iraqis are having to ask where their loyalties lie, and I think this is going to force a lot of people into the street. And for every father, mother, brother, sister , child, aunt, uncle or cousin killed by an American bullet or missile, you're going to have a dozen more normal everyday people having to make the same choice. And evey mosque blown up is going to make a thousand people make the choice. Those aren't good odds. You can fight a few thousand insurgents. You can't fight hundreds of thousands in the streets.

Saw CNN footage of a guy with a gun in an Iraqis street last night. He said he wasn't a terrorist. He said terrorists were those who would attack him and his family in their home. I think most Americans would have the same opinion if they were in his shoes.

Lastly, I heard someone say that this was the coalition forces showing their teeth and claws, and that would end this current situation. Well, maybe. But these guys lived under some real teeth and claws for decades. They've seen the real thing.

Posted by: Stu at April 8, 2004 07:59 AM

I'm sorry if somebody elese already said this; I don't have time to read all of the comments.

However, it is NOT the case that "most Christians" would shudder at using a church this way.

During WWII, church steeples were commonly used by both Americans and Germans as good placement for snipers.

Most Christians think war is a special case, and that if you make churches a "hands-off" building, you are only guaranteeing that the enemy will use it as a safe place to operate from. Ditto mosques.

For the sake of these sort of situations, mosques should be treated as just like any other building.

Posted by: Ash at April 8, 2004 08:52 AM

SAMUEL...

Dude, are you backpeddling in your support for Bush? I know you wouldn't consider a vote for Kerry. Are you thinking about just not voting at all? Better to show up, even if you have to hold your nose.

God knows I'll be holding mine, either way I go.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at April 8, 2004 09:30 AM

If you are being shot at from the hiding place of a mosque, then you really don't have much choice but to take out the mosque. To do otherwise would be knowingly condone your fellow troops to getting shot.

Yes, it looks bad - but by hiding (and shooting) from a mosque, that brings the mosque into play.

JC

Posted by: JC at April 8, 2004 09:37 AM

"Yes, it looks bad - but by hiding (and shooting) from a mosque, that brings the mosque into play."

And letting a few insurgents getting away is a worse option than radicalizing thousands because it plays to their fears that their faith is not being respected by an invading culture? I don't think so. If you have time, read up on the Sikh reaction to India's attack on the Golden Temple at Amritsar in 1984 to see what can happen in similar circumstances.

Posted by: Stu at April 8, 2004 10:19 AM

lewy14 and Samuel have written my posts!

MichaelJ, you are doing it, too!.

Back to the rainy day.

Posted by: TmjUtah at April 8, 2004 10:21 AM

James Stephenson, too...

We aren't going to even give the appearance of installing a U.S. client state with a figurehead government.

We will transfer the power and responsibility to the Iraqis on June 30. We will remain as an ally, not an aggressor, and will turn our efforts to protecting the new government from external threats from Iran and Syria. Will it be seamless, perfect, or without problems? No, of course not, but we will have enabled the rise of a second representative government in a major muslim country within three years, and despite the best efforts of our media and our Left, the proof will be on the ground and not in some position paper that we mean to do exactly what we set out to do.

Once again, this administration will be raked over the coals for stating an objective, accomplishing it, and moving on to the next objective.

I got to listen to about an hour of Dr. Rices' testimony this morning. Seems to be going pretty well....and it appears that at least for this period (second hour) the partisanship has been muted. More than I thought it would be. It appears she spoke longer than originally planned. I guess we'll dissect this later, though.

Posted by: TmjUtah at April 8, 2004 10:35 AM

Grant

I would never vote for Kerry, I'm saying that if Bush throws out Neo-Con orthodoxy what to do? Neo-cons for the most part are Republican because the Democrats have no credibility in having the stomach for instilling the "Jacksonian" part of what makes the Neo-con variation of Wilsonianism different from the original. Hard-Wilsonian simply means Wilsonian with a Jacksonian edge. That is what has made the merge of Bush and Rumsfeld with the Neo-cons so important. Bush and Rumsfeld are Jacksonian Conservatives, not Neo-Cons. The Jacksonian gut level common sense in them inspired them to employ the Neo-con strategies to accomplish their goals. If Bush and Rumsfeld throw out the Neo-con part completely, and pack it in I will be sick (I am not talking about the June 30 deadline while we keep security like in Afghanistan, that’s fine) I am talking about a cold pull out. Let me say I don’t think that will happen, the Wilsonian part is the easy part, especially if it is the soft-Wilsonian type as that is the natural fall-back position.

On the other hand if they throw out the Jacksonian part and refuse to kill a bunch of the bastards, refuse to take the wrecking ball to what is necessary, and refuse to retake militarily the two or three hot-spots. What use do I have for them? He would then be soft-Wilsonian. He may as well be a Democrat at that point. Hell, Kerry could do that! I’m not stupid I know the difference, people who believe that Kerry could ever do what Bush has done, or could go in and fix what is wrong are silly. The soft-Wilsonian part is the easiest part, as I said the fall-back position. It is the Bush-Rumsfeld Jacksonian part of the equation that is the most difficult and important to keep going. If they go weak here he would at a minimum push me into the nose holding territory, if he went further he could lose me.

I have said that George Bush is the most Jacksonian President we have had since Andrew Jackson. If he quits being a Jacksonian and/or wisely seeking council from Wilsonians then what is he needed for? The beauty of Bush is as a Jacksonian, he is positioned to use both soft-Wilsonian (Powell) and hard-Wilsonian (Wolfowitz) equally as he is the Jacksonian part of the equation anyway. He would be throwing out a perfect merge of temperaments at a historic time. Let me say I do not believe that would happen, but if he did he would lose me. Without him we are in a soft-Wilsonian game, YUUK!

Posted by: Samuel at April 8, 2004 10:37 AM

Stu:

The entire mystique of terror is that "a few insurgents" believe that at any time their acts of homicide can affect political policy of entire nations.

The sooner we disabuse them of the concept they can exploit our perceived sensitivity to PC shackles, the sooner we will defeat them. The kicker to this is that contrary to the line "We'll offend other muslims" the contrary holds: they will understand implicitly that we are done playing games.

I don't think for a moment we won't hear outrage from across the Left, of course; amazing how worked up they can get about us killing terrorists in a mosque. I wonder if their outrage will exceed that they feel at finding the Ten Commandments in a courthouse somewhere. Only time will tell.

No sanctuary. No Laos, no Cambodia. No safe haven. This concept was a key component of the Bush Doctrine, and there is no objective reason for not prosecuting our campaign to the hilt wherever we find the enemy.

From the Law of Land Warfare, as adopted by the U.S. Military:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/27-10/Ch2.htm#s6

45. Buildings and Areas To Be Protected
a. Buildings To Be Spared.

In sieges and bombardments all necessary measures must be taken to spare, as far as possible, buildings dedicated to religion, art, science, or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not being used at the time for military purposes.

If they want to fight from a Mosque, they can die in a mosque. Pass the raisins.

Posted by: TmjUtah at April 8, 2004 10:49 AM

Churches have traditionally been used as sanctuaries for women and children and noncombatants. Most of the times, the church got burned down anyway.

Mosques, on the other hand, have traditionally been used as ammo dumps and bases of operations for muslim combatants trying to prey on the goodwill of their western opponents, or as propaganda against their western opponent.

It's similar to how muslims use their holy days as a ploy in claiming they should not be attacked on that day (Ramadan is a classic example), while at the same time they use somebody else's holy days to launch surprise attacks on them (Yom Kippur).

It's the way of the Arab. To the, deceit and manipulation is as legitimate a weapon as we consider cruise missiles to be.

Posted by: David at April 8, 2004 11:01 AM

It's the way of the Arab. To the, deceit and manipulation is as legitimate a weapon as we consider cruise missiles to be.

Posted by: David at April 8, 2004 11:02 AM

It's the way of the Arab. To them, deceit and manipulation is as legitimate a weapon as we consider cruise missiles to be.

Posted by: David at April 8, 2004 11:02 AM

David -- Saying "it's the arab way" is another way of saying that Arabs are barbarians. I suppose it understandable to be exasperated that Iraqis aren't welcoming us with flowers, or not doing it anymore. But characterizing Arabs, and Islam in general, as inherently barbaric is unhelpful and hypocrticial. It doesn't tell us a thing about what we should do differently in order to better prosecute this as-yet unwon war. If Arabs and Muslims are indeed barbarians, that could just as easily be an argument for complete disengagement from that part of the world. Or in responding to barbarism in kind.

Which brings us to the hypocrisy. You think the US and the West doesn't fight dirty? You should hear Robert McNamara quoting General Curtis LeMay, on the 1945 Tokyo firebombings, in Errol Morris' "Fog of War": "If we had lost that war, we would have been tried as war criminals."

If America was overrun by a superior force that you considered to be evil and anti-Christian(Communists for instance) you might be shooting from churches yourself. Just remember, Bin Laden and his ilk think that you are just as evil as you think they are.

Knowing your enemy means knowing him as he sees himself. At the risk of sounding pretentious, it's all in the Iliad: people fight for the percieved honor of themselves and their people.

Posted by: Markus Rose at April 8, 2004 12:04 PM

TmjUtah: "I don't think for a moment we won't hear outrage from across the Left, of course; amazing how worked up they can get about us killing terrorists in a mosque."

First of all, these guys probably aren't terrorists. Unless you know that they've attacked civilians in order to spread fear, that being the definition of terrorist. These are more likely to be insurgents.

Secondly, personally, I'm an aetheist, so I don't have much attachment to mosques, churches, temples, what-have-you. However, the people that the US is presumeably trying to win over do have an attachement to them, and will not look on it in the same way. And that needs to be considered.

Thirdly, the argument might be made that under some circumstances, say a major military advantage to be gained, for example, it might be worth further radicalizing of the Shia in ordr to bomb the mosque. In this case, they killed a single insurgent. (ref)

Lastly, you point out that this was legal. To quote Professor Cole today, "It seems a little unlikely to me that Muslims around the world are going to say, "Oh, well, they only knocked some holes in the mosque wall. This isn't really so bad. And, they had every right to do it in international law."

If this is the level of thinking behind this kind of crap, it's no wonder that such a significant revolt is taking place. Expect worse.

Posted by: Stu at April 8, 2004 12:07 PM

Saying "it's the arab way" is another way of saying that Arabs are barbarians.

I do think the Arab culture is barbarous in many ways, and I have more evidence to prove my point than you do yours, because I'll give you facts while you give me platitudes. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't deny we have individuals such as your McNamara to embarrass us, and who we take great joy in condemning and holding up as everything that is wrong with the West. Nonetheless, I also think there are things of beauty in the Arab culture. So I can be fair too. But you mention exasperation, and that is probably a good way of explaining why I tend to focus on the negative at times like this.

But even if I do focus on the negative, I do so in the hope that I can wake you from the stupor that you've fallen into thanks to political correctness and other forms of low-level Anti-Americanism and anti-west sentiments, which aren't helping our G.I.s right now.

The focus on this Moque that we blew up, for example, is the type of political correctness that plays right into the hands of our enemies (even though we only knocked down an outer wall) and you folks of the multi-culti we-are-the-world Left hand it to them on a silver platter. If the Arabs thought for one second that we didn't give a rat's ass about multi-culti mosques, do you think they would even try using such P.R. ploys? Not for a second. They so so with the knowledge that our own destructively silly Left will run with the ball to the detriment of our G.I.s

Posted by: David at April 8, 2004 01:01 PM

If it is a choice of leaving a mosque standing or an American soldier standing, the mosque goes --- every time.
===

Wilsonian Dreams, Jacksonian Realities

Our enemies will continue their attacks on our military such as we see today in Iraq. Our enemies will continue their attacks on civilian populations such as we saw on September 11 in 2001 and in Madrid of this year. They will continue to rely on us to seek to keep our military casualties low and their civilian populations and centers of social and cultural safe from any real harm. As it currently stands, it is safer to be a muslim in Saudi Arabia and Syria, than a citizen of France or Spain.Our enemies rely on us to, in short, react as Isreal has done to terrorism for decades. We have, to date, been at pains not to disappoint.

Our enemies depend on us to continue to react in the Wilsonian tradition of being the sort of Americans that only seek to give the gifts of freedom, democracy, and self-rule to a collection of peoples that cannot earn it in their own right. They depend on us to hold our Jacksonian tradition of waging total war on our enemies in check. Total war, brought to innocent civilians, using all the means at their command is something that our enemies reserve as their sole prerogative. We have, to date, proven to be dependable.

http://www.americandigest.org/mt-archives/001065.html

Posted by: Gerard Van der Leun at April 8, 2004 01:31 PM

David: If the Arabs thought for one second that we didn't give a rat's ass about multi-culti mosques, do you think they would even try using such P.R. ploys?

Sure. When a mosque is blown up by an American air strike, the Western left is not the only group who sees.

If it inflames Iraqi public opinion against us, that's bad. This has nothing to do with political correctness.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at April 8, 2004 01:39 PM

Gerard Van der Leun

Wilsonian Dreams = Powell

Jacksonian Realities = Bush

Wilsonian Dreams + Jacksonian Realities = Neo-Con

May Bush follow his Jacksonian instincts.

That is my view as a true hard neo-con

Posted by: Samuel at April 8, 2004 02:08 PM

TmjUtah: "I don't think for a moment we won't hear outrage from across the Left, of course; amazing how worked up they can get about us killing terrorists in a mosque."

TmjUtah: - I see this a lot on this site - and I have to keep saying it again and again - it is incredibly counter-productive to paint the whole "Left" with one brush.

We have a small example here - I clearly do not care much about the ramifications of bombing a mosque, where snipers/insurgents/terrorists, are shooting at OUR TROOPS. This brings the mosque into play, and I could care less about the ramifications - you take take of your troops, period. Maybe that isn't thinking "far ahead" enough, but I don't care.

Nevertheless, I am usually a voter for democratic candidates (though not always).

So, do I "fit" your "left", or not?

JC

Posted by: JC at April 8, 2004 02:11 PM
... international law that forbid the use of religious shrines as places for combatants to do anything but pray or administer humanitarian aid

Recall that palestinian terrorists had a political field day when they hid in a church and inverted the condemnation on the Israelis. The Americans would not do much better. And international law is irrelevant when it gets in the way of blaming the politically incorrect (read: Jews and Americans) for the world's woes.

Posted by: Bill at April 8, 2004 02:30 PM

If it inflames Iraqi public opinion against us, that's bad. This has nothing to do with political correctness.

Michael, they do the same to each other. See numerous examples, especially in Pakistan.

Therefore, if they get "inflamed", it's because we dished it out on them on that particular occassion. Otherwise, mosques seem to be a fairly standard target in that part of the world.

So I stand by what I said--they prey on the Left's multi-culti weaknesses to get at us through the back door.

Posted by: David at April 8, 2004 03:07 PM

JC -

You bring up a very valid point.

I think the Big L Left comprises a fraction of the American political landscape. That they occupy the top tiers of education, media, entertainment, and pop culture and wield much more effect in relationship to their actual relavence is what incites such an emotional response in me. They only have to achieve a handful of elected offices at the national level in order to do lethal damage to my country, community, and family.

My opinion, of course. Creatures such as Kerry, O'Connor, Kennedys of any stripe, Pelosi, Daschle...take them out of a their positions of power and imagine them trying to sell you a used car. Or an investment.

Short sales call, I should hope. Either that, or I can get you in on the ground for a bridge deal in Brooklyn.

Liberal used to mean that a person believed the government should be used to improve individual welfare. What has evolved is a top-tier entrenched political elite that uses populism to either remain in power or to actively undermine the constitution. Once again, my opinion.

We have a fine man here in Utah, Scott Matheson, who represents one of our three congressional districts. He's a democrat, but hardly a big 'l' lib...but I am actively working to see him beaten in 2004 because his vote, combined with the top of his party, is consistently Left. Our last good democrat was Bill Orton, out of Provo. He was a congressman in Utah (where Clinton finished third twice) in the most conservative district in the state. When Clinton locked up the Grand Staircase Escalante Monument to take care of Lippo and the Greens prior to the '96 election, Orton was DONE. Lost by double digits after leading all the way to election day.

He never even knew the administration was going to act; they do eat their young over there. Until your top leadership has a major purge, the Dem part IS big L Lib, and needs as few elected officials as we can possibly manage to allow.

They owned this country from 1930 to 1980. They haven't come up with a new script since, and they can stay out of the play until they do.

Stu -

These militias are the active muscle for al Sadr's political ambitions. Fair numbers of Iranians and Syrians have been tagged over the last four days, fighting under his aegis. The al Sadr paper was ultimately shut down in large part because he was advocating the murder of anyone working for the CPA, Iraqi or coalition employee, and providing names, photographs, and addresses for the same. Some of those people died...are they 'innocents' or are they 'mercenaries'? Insurgents, terrorists, nationalists with self-esteem issues...call them what you want. Until they lay down their arms and participate in a constitutional government, then they can be outlaws, due only enough attention to locate, capture, or kill them.

I feel no reluctance to call these people terrorists, and barbarians is a fine fit, too. If this was 1904 and they could live in their country on the other side of the planet, with the only contact between our two cultures limited to trade and travel, it wouldn't be a problem. Now in 2004, the walls are gone. We live with an unconcious acceptance of the worth of each individual has. They practice chattel slavery of over half their population - females and minor children. We embrace the right to worship how we please or not to worship at all. They believe their holy scriptures direct them to kill those who will not convert to their belief system, and have been working hard at that objective for over fifty years. In the age of instant communication and almost instant travel, there is no insulation between us. This isn't a political question. It's a life or death issue.

Now we have met them in battle. I'm sure they are a little upset about us being in their backyard, and yes, I would be, too, if the tables were turned. The Nazis were really pissed about Cologne, Hamburg, and Berlin.

It's a war. We still have large numbers of people that have failed to snap out of the moral relativism that rightfully died for a great many Americans on 9/11.

I will second another above poster, too: If it is a choice between the life of an American soldier and leaving a mosque standing, destroy the mosque. No equivocation. No shades. The faster we make them understand that they are done hiding behind the 'religion of peace' and that they will pay for their ACTIONS everytime the ACT...why, then they can think whatever they want.

That's how we work it here, in the free, civilized world. It's one of the impositions we are trying to make on them: believing you are right is not the same as having the power to dictate life or death over those you disagree with.

Posted by: TmjUtah at April 8, 2004 03:15 PM

Minor point:

So they called in an airstrike and took out the mosque’s outer wall. (I don’t know what “outer wall” means. Did the bombs penetrate the mosque? Or did they explode outside it?)

Mosques are often built surrounded by a walled courtyard. I think the "outer wall" is such a courtyard wall, which would indicate that the mosque building itself wasn't harmed.

Posted by: jaed at April 8, 2004 04:32 PM

I think it needs to be pointed out that many mosques in this area are not marked in any way indicating that they are a mosque. Yes, the pictures all show the minarets attached to very recognizable houses of worship, but that is the exception, especially in run-down (read all of Iraq) areas. We used to joke about "pump and pray" gas stations in Saudia Arabia, places that had a very small mosque beside the usual pumps and small grocery store. Such a setup is common. This mosque may have been a building that in the middle of a firefight, looked like any other building in the area. Dust from tracked vehicles, cordite, limited visibility due to Marines trying to limit their exposure to incoming fire, confusion as to exactly where everyone is in your unit when they say they are taking fire, the fact that almost none of the more poorly constructed buildings in Iraq are painted a distinct color...all of these will tend to lessen the ability of the Marines to distinguish a mosque from an armory. If they are taking fire from a building, any building, they should fire back with all the weaponry they can muster until that fire is suppressed. They can expect nothing less in return.

Posted by: Diggs at April 8, 2004 05:55 PM

They are going to believe the worst about us no matter WHAT we do. So then, in for a dime, in for a dollar. Or as the Irish say: throw the hammer after the hatchet.

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