March 29, 2004

Real Terrorism in Uzbekistan

Two female suicide bombers killed at least 19 people in Uzbekistan.

Here's how Reuters reported it.

TASHKENT, Uzbekistan (Reuters) - At least 19 people were killed in a series of explosions and shoot-outs in Uzbekistan in "terrorist" actions aimed at splitting the U.S.-led anti-terror coalition, officials said Monday.
Muslims lash out at the world by blowing up other Muslims at random. And Reuters still can't type the word terrorist without putting the damn thing in quotation marks.

I guess we should cut them some slack when they say Jews, Americans and Iraqis are killed by "terrorists." They just don't believe terrorism is real. Still to this day.

And look at the reason why these attacks supposedly happened. To split the US-led anti-terrorist coalition. That's what the piece says.

Two paragraphs later, the same piece said this.

Hizb ut-Tahrir, which aims to set up a pan-Islamic state that would include post-Soviet Central Asia, and the austere Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam are both outlawed in Uzbekistan.
Any possibility that that was the reason for the attacks? I'm just asking.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 09:14 AM
Comments

I wonder if Reuter's would get the message if everyone
referenced them as a "news agency".

Posted by: bob at March 29, 2004 09:19 AM

Gee, it might have been something about boiling dissidents.

But, we don't dare critizise our friendly dictators.

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 09:30 AM

Did you forget to put the scare quotes on boiling dissidents? as in "boiling" and "dissidents" ?

What the hell are you talking about?

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 09:34 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,963497,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1146979,00.html

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1068718772668

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 09:40 AM

Nasty...although the second article does say the US intends to cut aid to the country because its human rights record was so bad. Did that ever happen?

Posted by: Barry at March 29, 2004 09:58 AM

Hipo,

I think you go to far on this. Granted these guys are scumbags but we are at war and we have to make hard decisions about who will work with us. It's a nasty world out there. Are you suggesting that after 9/11 we shouldn't have established a tactical relationship with Uzbekistan? Well, then
what about Pakistan, Russia, Texas?

Anyway it's a stretch to say that this retribution was the result of a single, albeit abhorrent incident. There have
been plenty of human bombs in Tel Aviv. How many prisoners has Israel boiled?

Posted by: bob at March 29, 2004 09:59 AM

Poor terrorists. One got boiled, so it excuses and explains all the atrocities they've committed in the last 50 years. I'm weepy for them.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 10:11 AM

Barry:

No. The State Department pushed back (re/de)certification.

Are you suggesting that after 9/11 we shouldn't have established a tactical relationship with Uzbekistan?

Well, yes. We should have put Uzbeckistan on the "against us" list, for torturing its dissidents. Instead, we put them on the "with us" list, because they let us use airfields in exchange for $50MM+ in aid. Wasn't the whole point of the Iraq doctrine to liberate people from opressive dictators (at least, that's what MT thinks it was - I, of course, think the doctrine was "You Killed My Father, Prepare to Die!").

Well, then what about Pakistan, Russia, Texas?

Do you have evidence that those countries/states are brutally opressing their dissidents?

There have been plenty of human bombs in Tel Aviv. How many prisoners has Israel boiled?

Ahh, the moral equivalency of the right. Bombs against peaceful Israeli citizens are bad. There are bad reasons to kill people (anti-semitism, hate) and good reasons to kill people (brutal opression of your religion/politics.)

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 10:12 AM

Hizb ut-Tahrir are not terrorists according to the US State Department. They are NOT on the State Department list. "Despite regional governments' claims, the United States has not found clear links between Hizb ut-Tahrir and terrorist activities."

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 10:19 AM

Ahh, the moral equivalency of the right. Bombs against peaceful Israeli citizens are bad.

No, he's saying that terrorists blow people up even when they're not being boiled.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 10:27 AM

Hipocrite: Gee, it might have been something about boiling dissidents.

Wow. Are you serious? That's why you think two women blew themselves up along with a bunch of civilians?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 10:29 AM

Hizb ut-Tahrir, which aims to set up a pan-Islamic state that would include post-Soviet Central Asia, and the austere Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam are both outlawed in Uzbekistan.

Any possibility that that was the reason for the attacks?

According to the actual holy warriors, yes.

Similar attacks have taken place in Chechnya, Kashmir, Israel and Thailand. They’re not trying to fight oppression, they’re trying to establish it in the form of a pan Islamic state.

From a Pakistan’s Jihad factories

"..The head of their madrasah (religious school), a portly man with a white turban and white Pakistani clothing, had invited me to see for myself how his students were treated and what they had learned. So I'd climbed some steps in the Khuddamuddin madrasah, one of perhaps 7,000 such religious schools in Pakistan, and found the boys at play, taking a break from classes."

"In a few moments chatting with them, I quickly learned that their major topic of study was jihad, or holy war. The nearly 2,000 students expect to fight infidels in Chechnya, Afghanistan, Palestine, or Indian Kashmir once they complete their studies at the madrasah, located inside the walls of the old city of Lahore...".

"...Most kids here go for jihad, and I will too, God willing," said 14-year-old Obeidulla Anwer, speaking in Urdu through a translator. "Jihad is to fight for Islam and the pride of Islam."

"Like most of his classmates, he will leave the school at about age 18 and go to a military training camp in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir, Afghanistan, or some other secret location. After that training, he said, "We go to fight in Kashmir, Chechnya, Palestine, Afghanistan."

Thai Buddhists don’t boil Saudi-funded ‘dissidents’. They’ve actually tried to cooperate with them, but still, Saudi-funded dissidents insist on slaughtering monks, trying to murder moderate Muslims and burning down girl’s schools.

That’s what they do in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. These dictator wannabes slaughter innocent people because that’s what they’re trained & paid to do.

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 10:37 AM

Well thanks Mike,
It was getting so boring talking about 9/11. I'm glad that you moved us to something of real significance. Quotation marks in a news story,

One mans terroist in anothers freedom fighter. Just ask you fellow citizens who funneled so much of our tax dollars to the contras, or, for that matter, to the muhajadeens over the years. I have no problem with a news agency using quotes to indicate that the characterization of the group is not "objective".

As to your problem with the reason for the attacks...
The article clearly states that the reson given was given by "officials". It was not AP's explanation of the reason. They were reporting, not analyzing.

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 10:38 AM

ooops, I meant Reuters of course

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 10:39 AM

Tano: One mans terroist in anothers freedom fighter...I have no problem with a news agency using quotes to indicate that the characterization of the group is not "objective".

Thank you for clarifying where you stand on terrorism, suicide-bombing, and fascist insurgents. I will keep that in mind when you continue to mouth off on the subject in the future.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 10:45 AM

Wow. Are you serious? That's why you think two women blew themselves up along with a bunch of civilians?

The boiling alone? No. The boiling along with a repressive regime that crushed religious and civil rights?

Was it the Tea Tax that got those damn Colonials all angry?

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 10:46 AM

Our involvement with Uzbekistan was initiated as part of our push to get to the Taliban government and oust Bin Laden from a terrorist sponsored state. I know that 9/11 is getting a little fuzzy for people like you but to refresh everyone's memory we needed to respond quickly to the 16,000 terrorists entrenched within the Hindu Kush.

Remember the logistics of military engagement in Afganistan was a tactical nightmare. Everything had to come from either air craft carriers or air bases in Ubekistan. According to your notion we should have washed our hands of Uzbekistan for the purposes of making a lofty statement about human rights.

Easy for you to say, since you, in all likelyhood, were never a member of Special Forces and were in dire need of air support to save the lives of yourselves and your buddies.

With respect to your sarcasm about "moral equivalency". Well how about a primer on basic cause and effect? You were asserting that the bombing was a result of a single atrocity. Do you have any proof of that? Your inference of causality is specious.

With respect to atrocities in Russia, let's just say I don't have
the time to enumerate. Besides Michael might run out of disk space.

With respect to Pakistan, how about this from Google:

"Refugees were beaten at unofficial checkpoints when they could not afford to pay extortionate bribes. At official crossing points, families were beaten back, or languished in squalor without food, water or latrines-hoping to be let in. Once inside Pakistan, refugees were harassed and imprisoned because they lacked identity documents. They also endured beatings by Pakistani police when queuing for food in camps."

Not exactly the treatment you'd expect crossing over to the U.S. side from Quebec. This wasn't hard to find and certainly not surprising. So I guess working with Musharref would be too dicey for you. That leaves us doing F-16 sorties to Kabul from either a limited number of air craft carriers or from New Jersey.

Human rights violations in Texas? H'mmm. Syndication of Molly Ivins columns comes to mind. So does Willy Nelson.

Posted by: bob at March 29, 2004 10:53 AM

Nice try at a smear Michael.
The issue is not what I think of the groups, it is how a news agency reports the news. I can come to my own conclusions about the morality of a group. I dont need Reuters to use judgemental words, even if I agree with the judgement.

Becuase next thing you know, they could start calling our troops in Iraq "invaders". Or zionists as "crusaders". It works both ways, y'know. That is why good journalists make an effort (or they should) to leave the judgements to the readers, and to use neutral factual language.

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 10:55 AM

Tano: "One mans terroist in anothers freedom fighter."

Actually, suicide bombers blowing up civilians are always terrorists, no matter the righteousness of their purported causes.

Tano, your lack of morals and ethics are showing.

And Hipocrite: One nation at a time, okay? Or do you really think the choice is "Global Conflict Now!" versus "Fortress America"?

Posted by: Mark Poling at March 29, 2004 10:58 AM

Tano. Do you believe that the word "terrorism" has a coherent definition? Just curious.

Posted by: bob at March 29, 2004 11:02 AM

Tano: Becuase next thing you know, they could start calling our troops in Iraq "invaders". Or zionists as "crusaders".

Right on. Next thing you know, indeed. Except that, you know, they won't do that. Ever. It's a non-argument.

So, given that they should let everyone else make the judgments, why not use quotes more often? How about "protesters" for folks who may or may not have been bankrolled by Saddam, even indirectly. I mean, I'd much rather make up my own mind. Same for "dissident". Please, Reuters, spare me your judgment. I feel the great need to figure this out for myself.

What exactly is it about "terrorist" that is putting the power in the readers' minds in a way that just ol' terrorist doesn't sufficiently?

Incidentally, the sky in my world is blue. Just FYI.

Posted by: Matt Snyder at March 29, 2004 11:08 AM

Was it the Tea Tax that got those damn Colonials all angry?

What’s the point of this comparison? Were the ‘damn Colonials’ terrorists who deliberately targeted innocent people? Were they part of a well-funded worldwide organization that hopes to impose theocratic dictatorships on unwilling populations?

If you believe that the terrorists who deliberately slaughter innocent people in an attempt to oppress them are comparable to freedom fighters who are seeking to end oppression, do you support both the freedom fighters and the terrorists? Or do you condemn them both?

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 11:08 AM

Hipocrite: The boiling along with a repressive regime that crushed religious and civil rights?

Wow again. You really are an obtuse person. That gang of murderers is not fighting for religious and civil rights. They want to impose a fascist state of their own.

It never ceases to amaze me when leftists look at terrorists and see a mirror of themselves. They aren't fighting for your damn cause. If they were fighting for religious and civil rights against the Karimov regime, I would be right there with them. But they wouldn't be blowing up innocent civilians with suicide belts, so I wouldn't have to compromise myself.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 11:09 AM

I suppose one could get all worked up about Uzbeks, but they're just another convienent whipping boy for hypocrites like hipocrite.

It was never about the Uzbeks, or anybody else.

Posted by: eric at March 29, 2004 11:11 AM

bob -

a. The boiling was merely a single point of data in a wide gamut of repression undertaken by the Uzbeckistan Dictatorship.

b. Yes. If we are taking a courageous stand to defend Human Rights in Iraq, we should take the same stand to defend rights across the world.

If we could have gotten access to Iraqi airfields to attack on 9/12, in exchange for the funds to build one boiling oil pit for the torture of Iraqi dissidents, should we have done that?

d. I guess I must have missed something - it's illegal to belong to the opposition party in Russia? Dissidents are being boiled? Why haven't we heard of this in the press? Certainly, the WarParty will assert that we should invade Russia, Packistan and Texas next, right?

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 11:11 AM

I broke no idealism with regards to HT. They propose a disgusting form of government. However, you JUST CAN'T BOIL PEOPLE. I broke no idealism with the bombers. They killed innocents. YOU JUST CAN'T KILL INNOCENTS. Two wrongs makes two wrongs.

However, the US is only sending money to one of those wrongs - the Boiler. Yet, you're all pissed off about the other wrong, the bomber.

Why is that?

they were fighting for religious and civil rights against the Karimov regime, I would be right there with them.

How much research you put into Uzbeckistan, anyway, Mike? None? Why exactly aren't you right there with The Erk Democratic Party. When will we get a donate to the Erk button on the front page? When will we see a post about the brutal repression of the Erk?

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 11:22 AM

"It never ceases to amaze me when leftists look at terrorists and see a mirror of themselves"

Why are you amazed? These are the same people who pimped the likes of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot for decades.

Posted by: Ex at March 29, 2004 11:29 AM

Great work, Michael. I totally agree with where you're coming from. But let me ask a quick question if I could...

Why "two FEMALE suicide bombers"? Is there something uber-significant to you about the fact that they were women? Maybe there is or should be. You could make the case, but you don't because it's totally unrelated to your point. So why stick that in there? I mean, isn't a terrorist just a terrorist, plain and simple?

If you can, correctly I might add, pick apart Reuters for their mistakes...it's only fair play.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 29, 2004 11:31 AM

So it seems that of the two blasts, one was an accident - i.e. the people who died were not the eventual targets - and the other was a targetted attack on three policemen, with one innocent killed "collatorally".

Doesnt sound necessarily like terrorism to me. Terrorism is the purposeful targetting of civilians to inspire fear and insecurity. This could well be focussed (albeit incompetent) attacks against a repressive government.

I would keep the quotes for a while...

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 11:37 AM

PS...

And you really probably should make the case, sometime. Women in the Muslim world are afforded next to no rights whatsoever, but they've apparently got the right to blow themselves up and they're thankful. The logic of it baffles my mind.

Write something about the War on Terror and Women's Rights, when you get the chance. It doesn't get talked about nearly enough.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 29, 2004 11:38 AM

Hipocrite: How much research you put into Uzbeckistan, anyway, Mike?

Enough to spell it correctly.

Yet, you're all pissed off about the other wrong, the bomber. Why is that?

Because I fucking hate terrorism, that's why. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp? God.

Karimov is a wicked bastard, and I've said so elsewhere. But this particular news article isn't about Karimov. So he doesn't get a mention today.

When will we get a donate to the Erk button on the front page?

I also support a Free Tibet, just like all the hippies in my college town. But that doesn't mean I have to put a damn button on my Web site.

It's amazing. I come out against fundamentalist suicide bombers, and you come along and get all bent out of shape about it. Wow. I mean, wow. Listen to yourself.

Jesus Christ. Grow up. Or go hang out at Indymedia where your level of commentary is considered sharp.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 11:41 AM

Whoh...was this a case of women blowing themselves up for their own rights, then? What a strange twist on suicide bombing that would be: Islamic Feminist Terrorism.

At least, maybe, then they're starting to figure out just who the enemy is.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 29, 2004 11:42 AM

Grant: Is there something uber-significant to you about the fact that they were women?

No, not really. Reuters put that detail in there, and I just relayed it. That's all.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 11:42 AM

So if someone blew up a bomb to kill a few of saddam's thugs, would that have been terrorism?

Just curious as to how people draw their lines.

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 11:51 AM



tano,

Thanks for your definition. If your facts are correct,
I would have to agree with you that the use of terrorism
in this story probably should not be used.

Michael was simply trying to make a good point,
perhaps badly.

The larger point is that new agencies have become so
value-neutral that they have expunged the term of terrorism
from their reporters vocabulary. We can argue that
under certain circumstances the term terrorism can
become a catch-all. But when it involves targeting random
civilians for the purposes of inciting political instability, the
term terrorism is appropriate. Anything else is a journalistic
euphanism.

Posted by: bob at March 29, 2004 11:52 AM

I think you're off the mark on this one, Michael. Uzbekistan has been using the excuse of "terrorists" to justify ever-encreasing human rights crackdowns, and to prove to the US what a loyal ally it is in the war against terror. The quotes around "terrorist" indicated a healthy amount of scepticism about the source.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 11:52 AM

I have yet to see any liberal-democratic revolutionaries use suicide-bombing as a liberation tactic.

Unless I see some evidence that these people are more akin to the student revolutionaries in Iran that to the fascist death squads all over the Muslim world, terrorism will remain outside quotation marks on this Web site.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 12:02 PM

Assuming that it was a suicide bombing. Point is, you don't know.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 12:04 PM

"The larger point is that new agencies have become so value-neutral..."

Well, all I can say is "whew".
I was so afraid that they were all a bunch of liberal ideologues.

Guess ya just cant win these days....

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 12:08 PM

Hipocrite has a legitimate point about Uzbekistan, which I will freely admit I don't spend a lot of time thinking about. I did a little googling because I am reluctant to accept the Guardian at face value without backup. The Washington Times published a very critical analysis on 11/17/03 about the US's lenient policy towards Uzbekistan.

It may be that in order to win the war on terrror we have to accept some thuggish regimes. And it may be legitimate for Reuters to put the scare quotes around terrorists in this case; as Tano points out, one bomber killed three policemen (and a child), and another exploded accidentally while the device was being prepared.

That's not to say that Reuters' use of the scare quotes is always justified, or that I approve of suicide bombers. And I am very uncomfortable agreeing with Hipocrite and Tano on this one.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 29, 2004 12:12 PM

From ABC news online:

"In Bukhara, people allegedly constructing a bomb accidentally set off an explosion, killing 10 people, he said.

In Tashkent, female suicide bombers carried out two attacks in the first such incidents in the Uzbek capital, he said.

The first suicide bombing occurred near a toy shop at 8:00am local time and killed two police officers and a child in addition to the bomber, Mr Kadyrov said.

The second suicide bombing at a nearby bus stop half an hour later killed a policeman and the bomber, he said.

Three other police officers were killed in related attacks leading up to the bombings, Mr Kadyrov said."

One blast was an accident that killed 10 people. Another was a deliberate suicide bombing near a toy store.

Should we only be convinced that it's terrorism when supporters pour into the streets with candy to celeberate, Palestinian style? Or does Reuters ever use the term 'terrorist' to describe the bombers of pizza shops and ice cream parlors?

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 12:14 PM

"I have yet to see any liberal-democratic revolutionaries use suicide-bombing as a liberation tactic."

Maybe not suicide bombing, but terrorism for sure. Remeber Begin and Shamir?

" terrorism will remain outside quotation marks on this Web site."

Well thats perfectly appropriate. You are an opinion writer. You are perfectly free to give us your interpretations....

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 12:15 PM

"One blast was an accident that killed 10 people. Another was a deliberate suicide bombing near a toy store. "

Excuse me? An accident. How can we tell intentions from that? And the 8AM blast seemed targeted at the police. You choose to note the proximity to a toy store, but I doubt too many kids are there at 8AM.

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 12:20 PM

<bI have yet to see any liberal-democratic revolutionaries use suicide-bombing as a liberation tactic.

I forgot, who was the head of Irgun Tsvai-Leumi again?

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 12:27 PM

That's what I get for being unable to spell. 12 minutes late.

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 12:29 PM

tano,

I wouldn't be so sanguine about the deadening effects of sterilized language coming from journalists who are unwilling to call a spade a spade, on the pretense of retaining "objectivity." Not more than a few weeks ago, Andrew Sullivan pointed out a news article from Reuters that talked about the problem of detecting suitcase bombs in container ships arriving in Port Elizabeth, New Jersey. The article refused to use the term "terrorism" in the story.

The Pentagon gets raked over the coals for using euphanisms (e.g. "collateral damage"). Given that we are a democracy, and our ability to function as such is dependent on the quality and clarity of information we get from a free press, the concern about about the appropriate use of language is important.

Posted by: bob at March 29, 2004 12:29 PM

Tano - What part of 'The bomber killed two police officers and a child' didn't you understand?

The ABC calls these attacks suspected terror, which is better the Reuters' scare quotes.

In Uzbekistan, we're offered a choice between supporting the boilers or the bombers. I don’t support either one of them. Do you?

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 12:41 PM

If the Uzbek government were exposed as aliens from Venus bent on harvesting humans for their meat, it wouldn't change the fact that somebody blowing up at a bus station is a terrorist, no quotes.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 12:48 PM

well mary, I dont know.
I suspect I would have no sympathy for the government. But I dont knwo much about the bombers. Maybe they are just what the government says they are, but would you mind if I am suspicious?
Maybe they are fighting the good fight.

Maybe they are fighting a not so good fight. But so far, I sense they are targeting the police. Which might make them any number of bad things, but not necessarily terrorists.

I dont prefer "suspected terrorist". What the hell does that mean? Suspected by whom?

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 01:02 PM

hipocrite wrote:
"I forgot, who was the head of Irgun Tsvai-Leumi again?"

Cool! Its back to the Jooz again! It's all their fault! It don't matter what happens anywhere--There always a Joo at the bottom of it!

Posted by: eric at March 29, 2004 01:05 PM

If they're Saudi funded Wahhabis trying to set up a pan-Islamic state, I suspect that this is not a 'good' fight. It's between boilers and boiler-wannabes.

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 01:24 PM

Well I have been shooting my mouth/fingers off quite a bit today - I really should get back to work.
Final thought.

Given that the president has reacted to an act of war by al-Q by defining an overarching war on terrorism, I think it behooves us to at least try to enforce a clear and strict defintion of the word "terrorism". For as it now stands, any use of the word immediatly defines an enemy of the United States. And opportunists around the world didnt take more than five minutes to figure that one out.
So if errors are to be made, I would greatly prefer our news agencies erring on the side of not defining groups as such, until or unless they embrace that full identity.

Posted by: tano at March 29, 2004 01:27 PM

Oh Mary,

don't be so simplistic. What's "good" anyway but an attempt by conservative white men to impose traditional western values on the poor little brown peoples of the earth? Didn't you go to college? One man's good is another man's evil, remember. Who are you to judge?

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 01:30 PM
So if someone blew up a bomb to kill a few of saddam's thugs, would that have been terrorism?

Are you really this dense or are you just being obtuse?

The term "saddam's thugs" tells us they are a party to Hussein's crimes, doing his dirty work, and therefore guilty. I shed no tears for their demise. That is in contrast to INNOCENT PEOPLE killed in the terrorist blast.

There is a huge difference here, I can't understand why you can't see it.

Just curious as to how people draw their lines.

I draw my line at the intentional killing of little girls, how about you? Or can you somehow justify that one?

Posted by: TJ at March 29, 2004 01:32 PM

"For as it now stands, any use of the word immediatly defines an enemy of the United States"

Please behoove us and describe why this is incorrect.

Posted by: Abel at March 29, 2004 01:33 PM

Just curious as to how people draw their lines.

The Left has been drawing moral equivalencies for so long that they truly DON'T know how to draw these lines.

On the other hand, when it comes to Israel and the Joooz...

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 01:43 PM

I draw my line at the intentional killing of little girls, how about you?

That's a good line to draw. I sincerely wish that we always came out on the bright side of it.

Posted by: Kimmitt at March 29, 2004 01:51 PM

David – you’re right – we should breathe in terrorists who deliberately kill kids and their wealthy (but brown!) Saudi sponsors and breathe out peace and tranquility.

We must go beyond our -isms and schisms, embrace these freedom fighters and visualize whirled peas.

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 01:51 PM

That's a good line to draw. I sincerely wish that we always came out on the bright side of it.

Kimmitt:

I sincerely doubt that's what you really wish. How else to moralize about the millions of innocent people that died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Incidentally, did we INTENTIONALLY kill little girls over there?

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 01:56 PM

David: Yes and also at Hirioshima. That gives me the right to kill any American little girl I want, until we are exactly equal. It's all about equality, see?

Posted by: LiberalOsama at March 29, 2004 01:59 PM

Mary, you asked "Were the ‘damn Colonials’ terrorists who deliberately targeted innocent people?"

As a matter of fact, many of them were. Although technology had not advanced to the point where suicide bombers were possible, there are numerous cases of lynch mobs performing 'tarring and feathering,' which often resulted in the death of the subject. Many Loyalist houses were robbed, some were burned, and after the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown, many Loyalist families were driven out of America through fear of reprisal, either from the new government or locals. That sounds a lot like terrorism to me.

Posted by: Robert Anderson at March 29, 2004 02:01 PM

Tar & Feathers = sucide bombers

Let's not forget that Americans slaughtered innocent native Americans too.

I won't rest until Thomas Jefferson and the other war criminals are condemned by the Hague.

Posted by: Amerikkasucks at March 29, 2004 02:03 PM

LiberalOsama,

when you declare war on the U.S. things are going to get broken, savvy?

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 02:04 PM

Excuse me? An accident. How can we tell intentions from that? And the 8AM blast seemed targeted at the police. You choose to note the proximity to a toy store, but I doubt too many kids are there at 8AM.

It accidently blew up when/where they didn't intend it to. However, it's obvious it wasn't constructed to use in a fireworks show at Disneyland Tashkent. People build a bomb and it detonates at a toy store -- to me there's absolutely no doubt as to their intentions.

And similarly, since it was an accidental detonation, even though two policemen were killed, how can you be sure they were targeted? You don't target by accident.

Oh, and it does say one child was killed. Since it was 8am and not "too many" children were there, guess the bombers get a free pass for that one. Why don't you type that up into a postcard and send it to the dead child's parents? "Ok, you only got one child - but heaven help you if you'd accidently exploded a half-hour later when we were open!"

Posted by: Barry at March 29, 2004 02:08 PM

When terrorists blow up inside Disneyland the equivocating Leftists will still be using scare quotes in their captions. Mark my words.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 02:10 PM

Well Kimmitt, maybe you can tell me where we intentionally killed little girls.

Posted by: TJ at March 29, 2004 02:10 PM

Mary, you asked "Were the ‘damn Colonials’ terrorists who deliberately targeted innocent people?"

As a matter of fact, many of them were. Although technology had not advanced to the point where suicide bombers were possible, there are numerous cases of lynch mobs performing 'tarring and feathering,' which often resulted in the death of the subject.....

That sounds a lot like terrorism to me.

It also took place over 225 years ago - does America get any credit for advancing past that stage, or must we continually pay for the sins of our fathers?

A lot of Americans kept slaves over 140 years ago. But we got smart and passed laws (and yes, had a war) and prohibited it. We grew some more. Should Americans today still be condemned for the sins of those fathers?

If so, I've got a beef with those *&%$# British land barons who persecuted my Scottish ancestors. Where's Mel Gibson when you need him?

Posted by: Barry at March 29, 2004 02:14 PM

Sorry, everything up to and including "That sounds a lot like terrorism to me." should've been in italics - it's all quoted from previous comments. My comments begin with "It also took place over 225 years ago..."

Posted by: Barry at March 29, 2004 02:15 PM

Barry - of course it happened 225 years ago, that's why it doesn't matter much. Mary asked a question about terrorist status, and I answered truthfully. That doesn't mean I have a grudge against the colonists, or that I think their cause was unjust. It's simply the truth.

Amerikkasucks - You can mock tarring and feathering as much as you like, but it was a brutal form of mob violence that usually killed those it was performed upon.

Posted by: Robert Anderson at March 29, 2004 02:20 PM

Tarring and feathering was not GOVERNMENT POLICY. So mock away I say.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 02:26 PM

Robert - When a few Colonials tarred and feathered some soon-to-be-Canadians, did that make them terrorists? Were they, in your mind, equivalent to suicide bombers who deliberately nail-bomb children, using this military tactic as their primary way of waging war?

The colonials weren’t seeking to establish an oppressive form of government, as most terrorists are. Were they still terrorists?

Is this your way of saying one man terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter? If so, if you believe that terrorists and freedom fighters are equivalent, are you sympathetic with both groups?

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 02:30 PM

Mary, that's cruel. You're forcing a Leftist to use logic.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 02:32 PM

Tarring and feathering was as shameful period in Amerikkkan history. Each tar and feathering was usually aimed specicially at innocents and involved high explosives and shrpanel that included ball-berings and nails laced with rat poision. Tar and feathering was designed for easy infiltration and to kill and maim dozens of people, including the user.

Sucide bombers are not as bad. Usually they destroy clothing, get stuck in hair and end up with the target being run out on a rail from town.

Posted by: Amerikkasucks at March 29, 2004 02:43 PM

Amerikkkasucks,

paddling was common in our schools. We mustn't overlook that shameful period in our history either.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 02:48 PM

Question was, and I repeat - "I have yet to see any liberal-democratic revolutionaries use suicide-bombing as a liberation tactic."

This, of course, is
a. Because MT has conviently chosen to ignore Terrorists that were Terrorizing for things he and I agrees with. and
b. Because MT has limited it to Suicide Bombing, which temporalizes it to a post approx 1910 event, as explosives could not be manportable before.

Mary desperatly wants people she likes not to be terrorists. Terrorists use terror to further their political goals. It dosen't matter if they want to form a liberal democracy, like some, or a theist dictatorship, like others. Wanting to form an opressive form of governemnt is not a requirement to be a terrorist - otherwise, how could we call the JDL a terrorist organization, which it clearly is. I mean, really, assisinations on US soil?

Not all terrorists are freedom fighters. Only those terrorists who use terror to further the cause of freedom are freedom fighters. Examples would include the American Revolutionaries, the French Revolutionaries, the Irgun Tsvai-Leumi, and many, many more. In fact, I'm not really sure anyone can name a single violent genesis of democracy without at least one act of terrorism.

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 02:49 PM

mary says: "The colonials weren’t seeking to establish an oppressive form of government, as most terrorists are. Were they still terrorists?"

A terrorist is an individual or member of a clandestine group who seeks to evoke a political result through violence aimed at civilian targets. Their intents or larger political ambitions are irrelevant to the description, just their methods

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 02:49 PM

Stu,

so why put the word terrorist in scare quotes?

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 02:50 PM

I didn't.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 02:51 PM

But if you're talking about the article, I don't think it's because the writer doesn't consider the act terrorism, I think it's because the regime in Uzbekistan isn't a particularily reliable news source about stuff like this, and the terrorist act is at a suspiciously good time for the regime. I think the quotes indicate some scepticism about the event.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 02:54 PM

... make that "and the terrorist act comes at a suspiciously good time for the regime."

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 02:55 PM

Stu: But if you're talking about the article, I don't think it's because the writer doesn't consider the act terrorism, I think it's because the regime in Uzbekistan isn't a particularily reliable news source

Reuters always does this. It doesn't matter who blows up whom.

It's possible that the regime is full of crap on this one. I've only seen the one article. Maybe if Reuters wouldn't use scare quotes so often, they could use them once in a while to make the nuanced case you think they might be making.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 03:03 PM

Wow, I can't believe I forgot this - I mean, normally it gets painted on me, but if the shoe fits them, make them eat it, right?

Communism killed 100MM people! You right-wingers are all communist supporters! Islam Karimov came to power as First Secretary of the Communist Party of Uzbekistan in 1989, and now you tacitly support his regime.

It seems just as likley that Karimov bombed his own people as Islamic terrorists did. Look at his bombing history - last bombing, he outlawed the opposition parties and tried to extradite his exiled opponent.

Who know what that right-wing communist will do this time?

Posted by: Hipocrite at March 29, 2004 03:06 PM

Terrorists seek to evoke a political result through violence aimed at civilian targets.

So terrorist groups directly target civilians. Not redcoats, not policemen, not soldiers, civilians.

When targeting civilians is the primary tactic used by a certain group, then they’re defined as terrorists.

It’s not part of the official definition, but when a group deliberately and consistently shows that they’re happy to shred toddlers, it’s usually a sign that they have no respect for human rights, and their eventual goal is to oppress.

Most democracies were formed by resistance fighters who used traditional resistance tactics – targeting supply lines and combatants (soldiers, govt.) Targeting civilians was never their primary tactic.

But that’s how I see things. I don’t believe that resistance fighters and terrorist are equivalent. I believe that resistance groups fight oppression while terrorist groups fight to oppress. Their tactics indicate their goals.

If you disagree and if you believe that terrorist=freedom fighter, then you must hold the same opinion about both groups. When you say one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist, are you supporting both groups or are you condemning them?

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 03:09 PM

Hypocrite,

you don't possibly mean to blame the "rightwing" for both the nazis AND the commies do you???

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 03:11 PM

I find it telling that some people on this thread automatically cut the bombers some slack. That's their default position.

Hey, I understand the mentality. I used to do the same thing with revolutionaries that fought to overthrow nasty dictatorships. Then I learned to be a bit more choosy about which revolutionaries to support, even if the regime needs overthrowing.

The Czar was bad. Lenin was worse. The Shah was bad. The ayatollahs were worse. The Saudis are bad. Al Qaeda is worse.

You know the drill by now.

I support revolutionaries so long as they are not communist or fascist. And if they commit terrorism they are probably one or the other. Liberals and democrats don't often kill their innocent countrymen on purpose.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 03:12 PM

Hipocrite: now you tacitly support [Karimov's] regime.

I do? Since when? I'd love to see the bastard hanged from a lampost.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 03:13 PM

Bravo Michael.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 03:16 PM

(Sorry for addressing each comment to the commentee; I have no idea how to do the nifty italics)

mary -

In order of your questions, yes, no, yes, not exactly, no. Explanations, now.

Terrorism is the use of fear to gain politcal, economic, or material advantages over an adversary. I don't subscribe to the "terrosism is demanding the impossible at gunpoint" notion. Since these Colonials I have mentioned used violence to cause public humiliation to convince Loyalists to remain passive, they were terrorists.

However, they are not morally equivalent to the suicide bombers secondarily because of the person being killed is, in the latters' case, a child. I have always considered the murder of a child to be a greater crime than the murder of a man. The primary reason is the actual targeting itself. The colonials had a very specific person they wanted to brutalize, and it seems that they did not kill others in the process. The very nature of bombings, however, creates additional, unrelated casualties, which is indefensible. The more reckless nature of the suicide bombers makes them more morally reprehensible to me.

Yes, they were still terrorists, despite their noble intentions. My personal definition makes no distinctions based on ultimate goal, only immeadiate goal.

I prefer to think of the corrolary to that idiom: "Your freedom fighter is someone else's terrorist, always." Both are simply labels that one puts on a person who fights either for or against one's interest. There is no fundemental difference between the two: the person who fights for is a freedom fighter, the one who fights against is a terrorist. However, the truly objective terms that matter are ones like "murderer," which these suicide bombers clearly are, along with their Colonial counterparts. Unlike many people, I do not pretend that terrorists only exist in opposition to me. I recognize that even now, someone somewhere is plotting a despicable act of murder and violence that will ultimately benefit me. That person receives, and will receive, my vocal condemnation just as much as these murderers we are discussing. I don't think that Washington was a murderer. He was my freedom fighter, but the British would've coined him a terrorist.

Posted by: Robert Anderson at March 29, 2004 03:17 PM

MJT: "Reuters always does this. It doesn't matter who blows up whom."

Here's ABC (my emphisis): It noted that while Uzbek police had made some arrests they feared that "other terrorists" remained uncaptured and may be ready to stage new attacks.

Newhour: "President Islam Karimov told the nation in a television address Monday that the perpetrators had been preparing for the "terrorist acts" for at least six months." (and he sure seems to know a lot about the attacks already, doesn't he?)

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:22 PM

Mary, I can't tell if you're agreeing with the definition or disagreeing with it. But that's the official definition.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:25 PM

Mary,

Robert's thesis is from the point of view of someone who has no dog in this hunt--otherwise known as a relativist.

For example, during WWII, the nazis were Huns to most Americans, guilty of slaugtering Jews and other undesirables by the million.

But to the intelligentsia, however (see Robert), they were just ordinary Germans disgruntled at the oppressive terms of the Versailles Treaty.

So to the enlightened, it's all the same. One man's SS officer is another man's regular joe blow in a cool black uniform.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 03:25 PM

Robert: (Sorry for addressing each comment to the commentee; I have no idea how to do the nifty italics)

Like this:

<b>Robert:</b> <i>(Sorry for addressing each comment to the commentee; I have no idea how to do the nifty italics)</b>

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:28 PM

David But to the intelligentsia, however (see Robert), they were just ordinary Germans disgruntled at the oppressive terms of the Versailles Treaty

Understanding the formative reasons behind extremist movements does not imply excusing them.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:30 PM

Okay, okay, I'm a dope. Robert, the last tag in my example should be a </i>, not a </b>. Sorry about that.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:33 PM

Stu,

oh, so the scare quotes are just the guys at Reuters trying to understand the formative reasons behind the extremism.

I got it now.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 03:38 PM

Michael –
I support revolutionaries so long as they are not communist or fascist. And if they commit terrorism they are probably one or the other. Liberals and democrats don't often kill their innocent countrymen on purpose.

That’s what I (with too many words) was trying to say.

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 03:39 PM

David: "oh, so the scare quotes are just the guys at Reuters trying to understand the formative reasons behind the extremism."

Where did I say (or imply) that?

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:41 PM

Stu,

I'm not going to go back and re-read the thread, but the entire logic behind the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" amounts to that.

If you don't subscribe to that view (amply displayed in the thread above), here is your chance to opt out.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 03:44 PM

Stu – I was using the definition to prove that there’s an objective difference between resistance fighters and terrorists.

..and some pacifists will argue that if we had tried to understand the root causes of German disgruntlement and if Americans were nicer people, we could have prevented WWII.

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 03:45 PM

David: I'm not going to go back and re-read the thread, but the entire logic behind the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" amounts to that.

I think that you should re-read the thread. You've just slagged me (in an insultingly juvenile sarcastic way) for something I didn't say or imply.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:46 PM

Mary: "...and some pacifists will argue that if we had tried to understand the root causes of German disgruntlement and if Americans were nicer people, we could have prevented WWII."

Are you saying that people should not have tried to understand the causes of German disgruntlement? Why on earth not?

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:48 PM

I found a newspaper from May 31, 1971. In an article on the Vietnam war the article begins - "SAIGON (AP) - Enemy forces launched the biggest ... " Now, if you can, imagine the AP or Reuters referring to Al Qaeda as the ENEMY. WOW.

Posted by: tas at March 29, 2004 03:49 PM

..a Leftist...
But to the intelligentsia, however (see Robert)

It is amusing to watch you try to invalidate my arguements by plastering me with lables. For the record, I consider myself a Centrist, I believe in objective good and evil, I oppose abortion, and I was a vocal advocate of the Iraq war. My arguements here are not based on the relative morals of the people who commit these crimes against humanity as you suppose, but upon the definite meanings of English words. I don't believe that 'terrorist' means 'murderer,' or 'criminal,' or vice versa.

Posted by: Robert Anderson at March 29, 2004 03:52 PM

Two side comments: can we please continue this discussion by debating the issues, and not by spewing out labels? And thanks Stu, for the tip.

Posted by: Robert Anderson at March 29, 2004 03:55 PM

And thanks Stu, for the tip.

No prob. But make sure that you reuse the tags at the beginning of each paragraph, Michael's comment thingie forgets the settings after a carriage return for some reason. Using preview helps catch those kinds of errors.

Posted by: Stu at March 29, 2004 03:57 PM

Both are simply labels that one puts on a person who fights either for or against one's interest. There is no fundemental difference between the two: the person who fights for is a freedom fighter, the one who fights against is a terrorist.

Robert, you sure don't sound like somebody with a dog in this hunt, or somebody strong with convictions about the issue. It's all academic, as they say. You seem more upset about tarring and feathering, or should I say "tarring" and "feathering".

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 04:01 PM

Robert: It is amusing to watch you try to invalidate my arguements by plastering me with lables. For the record, I consider myself a Centrist

Fun when that happens, isn't it?

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 04:03 PM

You seem more upset about tarring and feathering, or should I say "tarring" and "feathering"

If that is the case, blame on the inherent limitations of this medium, not on my actual thoughts. My mention of the tarring and featherings was purely academic, as you suggest, brought up merely to answer mary's question of whether Colonialists were terrorists. But as to the current problem that you call ''terrorism," (I prefer to call it organized political murder) I do have a dog in the fight. I don't want to be killed, or for anyone I know to be killed, because some nutcase wants to make a political statement. I condemn murderers instead of terrorists because murder can only kill, while fear can be used to keep the murderers at bay,

Posted by: Robert Anderson at March 29, 2004 04:09 PM

Well if nobody is apparently justifying or excusing the Reuterization of the term terrorist in Michael's post, then what are we arguing about????

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 04:17 PM

I sincerely doubt that's what you really wish. How else to moralize about the millions of innocent people that died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Er, the millions of innocents who died in Iraq and Afghanitan died at the hands of Saddam/Iran and the Soviets, respectively. However, I will quickly point out that the US genocide committed upon the various Native American tribes included multiple instances of massacres of men, women, and children and then take my leave.

Posted by: Kimmitt at March 29, 2004 04:29 PM

"Terrorism is the use of fear to gain politcal, economic, or material advantages over an adversary. "
"But that's the official definition."

Says who. Cripes the whole world has been debating this issue for at least of a quarter of a century. How can you argue
that there is an "official" definition? I think that's hogwash.

Your definition is way too broad to be useful. If you want to argue that "the use of terrorism is the user of fear to gain political, economic, or material advantages" then terrorism runs the gamut from various WWII bombing raids to broadcasts to GIs by Tokyo Rose.

Like pornography, we know it when we see it.

Posted by: bob at March 29, 2004 04:29 PM

Are you saying that people should not have tried to understand the causes of German disgruntlement? Why on earth not?

It's a question of timing. Trying to address the root causes of German disgruntlement before the war, at the point when millions of Germans were enthusiastically shouting 'Heil Hitler' & supporting the idea of the Thousand Year Reich, would have been pointless.

Trying to address the root causes after the German army was defeated was helpful.

Many pacifists believe that we should have addressed the root causes before the war.

Posted by: mary at March 29, 2004 05:09 PM

Kimmitt: I will quickly point out that the US genocide committed upon the various Native American tribes included multiple instances of massacres of men, women, and children and then take my leave.

Sure. And they weren't "freedom fighters." They were not oppressed by a fascist Native American regime. So I don't see what that adds to our discussion except to demonstrate that we are not and have not always been perfect angels. And we know that very well already.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 05:26 PM

Unless I see some evidence that these people are more akin to the student revolutionaries in Iran that to the fascist death squads all over the Muslim world, terrorism will remain outside quotation marks on this Web site.

Mike - are you saying that it wouldn't be terrorism if the cause were liberatory? I would say that even liberatory groups are terrorists if they blow up civilians. (I think you believe this, too, which is why I am wondering about the above statement. I could not find the comment you were responding to ...)

Posted by: karrie at March 29, 2004 06:33 PM

Many pacifists believe that we should have addressed the root causes before the war.

Mary,

I agree with you. Trying to "understand" the enemy in the midst of battle, to "reach out to him" so to speak, to apologize for him, etc., is one degree short of treason as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, once he is broken and utterly defeated, then you may read a book about him, and try to "understand" him. Feel free.

Posted by: David at March 29, 2004 06:45 PM

Karrie: Mike - are you saying that it wouldn't be terrorism if the cause were liberatory? I would say that even liberatory groups are terrorists if they blow up civilians.

Yes. You are correct. I didn't get it right.

Later down I said the following to kinda sorta make up for the oversight:

I support revolutionaries so long as they are not communist or fascist. And if they commit terrorism they are probably one or the other. Liberals and democrats don't often kill their innocent countrymen on purpose.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 29, 2004 07:07 PM

Ah, that is what I figured, Mike. I knew there was something missing from the picture (or rather, that I had missed something). Comments sections can be confusing sometimes!

Posted by: karrie at March 29, 2004 07:24 PM

Kimmit: Not to mention the Romans slew the Germans, Jews and Celts. And the English were genocidal to the Scotts.

I guess that gives terrorists and tyrants of the last 50 years (including those still in process) a pass. So kill the JOos! Remember, they were once genocidal to the Hittites (so it is ok).

Posted by: lefttie at March 30, 2004 05:50 AM

While it does look like the police were targeted, I should point something out about the notion that because of the time of attacks, there wouldn't be too many kids around.

It's absolute and utter BS to think that.

I gotta tell you that Chorsu is a busy place, there are always a lot of people around and a fair number of children. In Uzbekistan, there's a lot of commercial activity early in the morning--maybe not as much this time of year if the mornings are still cold.

TTZ, the site of the shootout and more bombings, is also a busy place. Lots of teens pass by here on the buses from the north on their way to schools in Tashkent.

Any Uzbek willing to blow themselves up would know these things. They may have gone after the police, but they just don't care about the collateral damage.

BTW, to plug myself, I'm covering events as they happen at my blog. Uzbekistan, being a land of rumors and conjecture, is full of interesting and frightening news.

Posted by: Nathan at March 30, 2004 08:16 AM

"I agree with you. Trying to "understand" the enemy in the midst of battle, to "reach out to him" so to speak, to apologize for him, etc., is one degree short of treason as far as I'm concerned."

Treason? That's crap. Understanding an enemy's thought processes is essential to manipulating them into a position advantageous to you. If the US administration had understood the Japanese political situation better, or had listened to their ambassador to Japan, who DID know what was going on, the Pacific war would never had happened.

Jeez. I can't believe it when people think that the alternative to being stupid is being treasonous. At least it explains some of your arguments here, David.

Posted by: Stu at March 30, 2004 09:17 AM

If the US administration had understood the Japanese political situation better, or had listened to their ambassador to Japan, who DID know what was going on, the Pacific war would never had happened

Really? So the US was at fault, yet again.

The Pacific war wouldn't have happened if America hadn't been so stupid. We should have listened to the Japanese. Sigh We're to blame, we just weren't being nice enough to our homicidal, fascist enemies - again.

By the way, do you have any sources to back that assertion up?

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