March 24, 2004

Fish in a Barrel

Noam Chomsky has a blog now. And it has a comments section. Go say hi. And be nice. I don't want to send him any trolls.


UPDATE: Chomsky's comments section is a nightmarish place swarming with freaks and trolls. It's worse than I expected. A lot worse. This is not going to be a pleasant experience for him unless he shuts down the comments.

And that's too bad. My own comments section is invaluable, and I'm more careful about what I say now that I've switched to Movable Type (which has comments built in) and you all can yell at me and tell me I'm full of it.

Good feedback and debate might have made Chomsky smarter and more reasonable. But no. It will never happen. He has too many passionate enemies. He has no choice but to continue to wall himself off from reality.


UPDATE: Chomsky's comments have been disabled. That became inevitable almost instantly.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at March 24, 2004 04:37 PM
Comments

Looking at the comments section on Chomsky's blog, I recognized quite a few of the posters. Does anyone else ever get the feeling that there are about 18 posters in the blogosphere, and 847,321 lurkers? I don't cite this as a criticism, just as commentary.

Anyway I think that there will be no surprises at the Chomsky blog. He might as well subtitle it - You Know What I'll Write Before I Write It.

Welcome to blogs, Noam. Don't let facts stand in the way of your arguments. And yes I know you like to write, "These are the facts." I know what you've written. And I know what you'll write.

Posted by: Peter G at March 24, 2004 05:28 PM

Chomsky strikes me as the current college generation's equivalent of my era's Carlos Castaneda; somebody you find profound at 20 and embarrassing at 30.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 24, 2004 05:31 PM

Peter G., you are right.

Pat Curley, you are right.

But none of that's important. What's important is I don't see Michael J. Totten or Roger L. Simon on Chomsky's blogroll! Worse yet, no Lileks! Doesn't he know what's what in the blogosphere?

Posted by: Roger L. Simon at March 24, 2004 05:52 PM

He's got himself an optimistic title: Turning the Tide.

You can do it Noam old boy!

Posted by: John in Tokyo at March 24, 2004 06:43 PM

You can do it Noam old boy!

Hoo! Hoo! HOO!! Go Noamster!

The Chompmeister! IN! THE! HIZOUSSSSE!!

Posted by: Jim at March 24, 2004 07:01 PM

Noam is already being accused (in his comments section) of deleting dozens of comments.

I have deleted a grand total of five comments. Ever. And those were comments left by people who were kicked out for being jerks and who wouldn't stay away.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 24, 2004 07:16 PM

Michael, don't worry about sending him people who mess with the comments. Charles over at LGF has taken care of that for you...

Posted by: FH at March 24, 2004 07:17 PM

Noam is already being accused (in his comments section) of deleting dozens of comments.

The Left's greatest lie is that they are for "free speech".

WHAT A LIE.

Posted by: David at March 24, 2004 07:31 PM

I must say, though, that his comments section really is nasty. Go take a look and see why I like mine so much.

Intelligent debate at Chomsky's blog will not be possible. That is obvious already. And that's too bad. He won't learn anything from the experience.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 24, 2004 07:38 PM

Hopefully this means he'll publish fewer books. His books always seem to come out immediately after an event. Blogging will really be a more environmentally sound way for him to go.

Posted by: Nathan at March 24, 2004 07:43 PM

Yeah, I've been watching the disaster that is developing before our very eyes at Chompskyblog and I almost feel sorry for him. Almost.

Posted by: David at March 24, 2004 07:44 PM

What! He doesn't like to Roger Simon or Michael Totten? Errrr, excuse me for a second (fixing blog quickly). That mountebank!

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 24, 2004 07:46 PM

Pejmanesque is reporting that it's just a guy blogging stuff that Chomsky gives him to say. Almost a chomskybot. So, he probably wouldn't read his comments anyway.

The Chompinator! The Noam-a-saurus!! Keepin' it real!!

Posted by: Jim at March 24, 2004 07:48 PM

FYI, Deocrats for Bush kickoff speech by Zell Miller.

Posted by: Yehudit at March 24, 2004 08:08 PM

Er, thats Democrats for Bush kickoff speech by Zell Miller.

Posted by: Yehudit at March 24, 2004 08:09 PM

I absolutely feel like commenting on this.

Won't ever go there. Not even remotely interested. I'm going to exercise my right to not be bothered. Until the man gives up his nice swank home and his professorship or whatever he has at MIT or wherever (honestly I don't know or care, so don't shoot me down for being ignorant - my choice) and lives the life of the prole - he has no clue. He's just playing games with words. Oh, deary me - I forget.. that's what he does!

And the one book of his I tried to read when I was young and foolish and of a leftist bent? Even then I couldn't swallow that bilge.

thx Mike for letting me stand on the box. Enjoy your site.

Posted by: John at March 24, 2004 08:11 PM

"...I don't want to send him any trolls."

Too late. Coal to Newcastle, I'm afraid.

Posted by: Stephen at March 24, 2004 09:35 PM

You know, I've never understood smart stupid people.

Posted by: thecowthatstartedthechicagofire at March 24, 2004 10:09 PM

Michael, I hope you don't mind ....

This comment from over there made me laugh out loud:

I am very confused by this. I am at this site to look for a nice Garden Noam to put in my front lawn. I am going to put a red Garden Noam next to my bird-bath.

But this website has a bunch of articles with poor grammar (I should know I'm an English teacher) written by a schizophrenic. WHERE ARE THE GARDEN NOAMS FOR SALE?
Posted by Nancy Satherwaite at March 25, 2004 12:03 AM

Posted by: Mason at March 25, 2004 02:46 AM

Nope..can't be bothered.Noam Chomsky is a very smart person who is obsessed with spinning every single problem in the world,or those that "matter" anyway,on the US.

Expecting anything else is like watching WWE in the hopes of seeing a real match.

Posted by: Jussi Hämäläinen at March 25, 2004 04:02 AM

ABOUT THE DEMS FOR BUSH THING...

Does anyone here know why, pray tell, Zell Miller is still a Democrat? I've been trying to figure this one out for a long long time.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 25, 2004 04:05 AM

MJT,

Intelligent debate at Chomsky's blog will not be possible. That is obvious already. And that's too bad.

Its not too bad. Chomsky is getting the kind of comments he deserves. The intelligence of the comments at his blog already EXCEED the intelligence of Chomsky's own writing.

Posted by: HA at March 25, 2004 04:34 AM

Cow,

You know, I've never understood smart stupid people.

Academics like Chomsky are not intelligent people any more than the Dustin Hoffman character in Rainman was intelligent.

Academics like Chomsky are idiot savants. They are immersed in a world of their own and are good at their own equivalent of counting toothpicks on the floor, but little else. In Chomsky's case, he is a linguistic savant. He excels at manipulating the language. Since he is oblivious to how the real world works, his manipulation of the language is terribly destructive.

Posted by: HA at March 25, 2004 04:40 AM

Grant, Zell remains a Democrat because he is not that far out of step with his party on the local level; it is just on the national stage that he seems like a Republican. The same applies (but with the labels switched) to Lincoln Chafee. Most of these guys start out on the local level, move up to the state level, and then get national aspirations. By that point it is difficult to switch parties, and hazardous to one's political hide.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 06:03 AM

Garden Noams, I love it.

I am fairly unfamiliar with Chomsky but have some familiarity with the type of person who retreats to postmoderism as necessary to invalidate simple points made using honest straightforward reasoning. They can be fairly infuriating. Like it's been said, A crazy person can make a sane person crazy.

Nevertheless, I agree with Michael that assaulting a blog with nasty trolls is counter to the discussion values that I (and he, I believe) think a thoughtful blog is trying to foster.

Not ALL blogs of course. I'm not trying to proscribe what a blog should be for anyone. I just know that whether I am posting in comments or bloggin myself over at centerfield, I find great value in thoughtful comments whether they agree with me or not. And I find trolling and flaming ultimately worth little beyond the value of a good vent. Is emotional reinforcement of that which you are already sure is true something of intellectual value? Hmm.

This is not to say that I have never trolled or flamed. But rather that the more I blog, the harder I try not to flame, and the more I notice that it has little value. There's nothing wrong with mixing it up a little, but for myself, I like the idea of a blog golden rule, which is that I try to make comments of the type that I like to get when I'm posting a blog entry myself.

If there is a triumph of the blogosphere, for me it's that it acts as an antidote to partisan spin. When this happens, it's because posters are unafraid to note when others make good points, are willing to examine their own assumptions when called upon, open to genuinely considering the points others are trying to make, and willing to at least entertain the possibility that some part of their views could stand to be modified. Whenever a flame war breaks out, notice how rapid the devolution is to partisan rhetoric of some type.

Prior to the advent of the internet and blogs, there must have been a fairly large critical mass of intelligent but isolated persons who cared very deeply about the political nature of their country who may have had little or no outlet for honest and serious discourse. Valued fellow travelers of philosophy, economics, politics, etc married or moved away or whatever.

With blogs, there is now some outlet for discourse. And lo and behold, because it is public, it very often quickly devolves to the level of the same crappy partisan rhetoric that we bemoan. So note the hypocrisy inherent in engaging in that which we bemoan.

And note also that on occasions in our lives when we have had the pleasure of speaking honestly and from the heart with people who also care deeply about the political directions of our country, that we've taken something vsaluable away from honest exploration. Contrast this with what we've taken away from a conversation in which the engagement is adversarial. Anger and frustration.

Maybe it's OK to come to the blogosphere simply to vent anger and frustration. But I visit out of hope.

Posted by: bk at March 25, 2004 06:41 AM

Regarding Zell Miller -

Back in the days when I sat in Dr. Washington's eleventh grade U.S. Government class, he defined liberalism as the belief that government had a responsibility to provide for the welfare of individuals.

Period.

Conservatives believe government should be limited by a strict interpetation of the constitution, and that it best provided for the GENERAL welfare by doing its duties accordingly.

Zell Miller is a classic liberal. He's just been left behind by a party that has morphed into a freshmen philosophy class dedicated to changing the world into something not even Rousseau would recognise. What is left of the Democrat leadership (and select media organs who shill for them) probably causes lots of headshaking and quiet chuckles whereever retired KGB types meet up for coffee.

BTW, Dr. Washington marched with MLK, was a past president of the NAACP in Texas, and very much a "content of character" civil rights soldier. I deeply respected his efforts in getting us to ask WHY things are, not just learn what the books said.

Posted by: TmjUtah at March 25, 2004 07:02 AM

I caught the news on Tim Blair's blog, and boggled more than a little. Chomsky has a blog, and it has comments enabled? That won't last long.

Anyway, there really is a chomskybot. You can read about it here.

Posted by: Pixy Misa at March 25, 2004 07:07 AM

I'm going to steel myself, harness my all the resolve, maturity and fortitude I have and imagine the thought of people actually wanting to go to Chomsky's blog, even if just to hit him with a cluebat.

Ok....

EEEEEoooo!!!!!!!!!!

You guys went to Chomsky's blog. I mean....

EEEEooooo!!!!!!!!!

But in all seriousness I'd say that answering his blog with rational argument (let alone giving it hits to count up) gives sanction to his educated idiocy. What was the line from Orwell that went something like, "[hideously lame] ideas like that could only come from the mind of an intellectual?"

I can't remember now it because you guys are now just all [EEEooooo] gross.

OK now I'm going to get some graham crackers and read Lileks.

(EEEEooooo... yick.)

Posted by: Bill at March 25, 2004 07:32 AM

What amused me was the first article I saw there, where Noam Chomsky was lecturing everyone about living in the real world. Everyone back slowly away; he might spout nonsense if we corner him.

Posted by: Jeff Medcalf at March 25, 2004 08:31 AM

I picked up one of Chomsky's books a few years ago, mainly because I'd heard about it on some conservative sites like Tacitus and Andrew Sullivan. It was mainly to see if he was really as bad as they said. Yeah, it was actually that bad. I came very close to binning it, but I stopped because I have a deep reluctance to destroy any books, even extremely bad ones.

Posted by: sam at March 25, 2004 08:57 AM

I suspect the trolls will die down after awhile, or Z-Mag will require registration in order to comment, and cut off abusive posters.

That said, I don't think there is a good reason to comment there. One of the things I like about Michael's blog (and Roger Simon's) is that they will respond to your comments so that you can get a dialogue going. Does anybody really think Chomsky is going to respond to even his most substantive critics?

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 09:02 AM

Sam:

I understand operational linguists really can't stand him. Armitas's blog has been particularlly harsh in criticizing not only his political side, but his professional work. I an never forget when I cracked open a new pattern classification [not linguistics] book to find Chomsky's Normal Form cited in it (simply to have it there - the rest of the section was more ... practical). Like I said earlier. Eeeeooo.

Posted by: Bill at March 25, 2004 09:07 AM

I'm not going to visit the blog, I know it's wiggity-wack, because it's the CHOMPSTER!! Layin' down the fresh, Chomp-a-licious trip for y'all!

Posted by: Jim at March 25, 2004 09:18 AM

"Good feedback and debate might have made Chomsky smarter and more reasonable. But no. It will never happen. He has too many passionate enemies. He has no choice but to continue to wall himself off from reality."

Michael. Honey. Sweety-pie. You are such a very bright guy, but occasionally that lil ol liberal gene pops out and, wham! Noam could have become "smarter and more reasonable"? And somehow his superfluity of passionate enemies gives him no choice but to stay behind the UnReality wall?
You're even willing to believe in the ultimate redemption of Noamchomsky. Touching, but...honey, as I said...Whew! You took my breath away.

Let me ask, in a more adult vein, what benefit could possibly come to Dr. Chom by ceasing to be the UberParanoid voice of the America Blamers?

Otherwise, love ya', kid.

Posted by: SMinSF at March 25, 2004 09:27 AM

Jeff,

What amused me was the first article I saw there, where Noam Chomsky was lecturing everyone about living in the real world. Everyone back slowly away; he might spout nonsense if we corner him.

That WAS hilarious, wasn’t it? Let us all bask in Chomsky's wisdom:

Those who prefer to ignore the real world are also undermining any hope of reaching any popular constituency.

Heh. Do you think he even realizes what he’s saying?

The comments are actually quite funny on that blog, particularly the ones mimicking university sophistry, like the following:

The Semanticist Paradigm of Discourse and Neocultural Theory. In the works of Burroughs, a predominant concept is the distinction between without and within. The primary theme of d'Erlette's1 analysis of capitalist submaterial theory is the economy of conceptualist truth. In a sense, Debord suggests the use of subdeconstructive deappropriation to analyse and read class.

Too, too funny! (What's a predominant concept? Is that anything like a prepostnon-omnisublimated concept?) Unfortunately, there are whole blocks of university-trained sophists who believe this is intelligent commentary and analysis. Drop names and badly butchered pseudo-words and impress your friends! My God it’s embarrassing. Here, let’s make up another pseudo-word to describe this phenomenon: postneocumpseudopresubdebloviationizationism. Shakespeare, Johnson, and Melville have got nuthin’ on these people, I tell ya! Intellects for the ages, all!

The University Far Left in microcosm. Priceless.

Too bad about the trolling, though. It’d be fun to corner Chomsky, again, and again, and again, and again. And far easier than his acolytes presume, as the quote above demonstrates.

Posted by: Catalonia at March 25, 2004 10:04 AM

Catalonia,
Was that a serious comment or was it a particularly good attempt to mock the way that many academics write?

Posted by: sam at March 25, 2004 10:11 AM

Sam,

I believe it was serious, pulled from the writing of some Marxist English literary theorist or another. Note the references to capitalism and class.

Posted by: Catalonia at March 25, 2004 10:17 AM

Sam you need to... explore... this little gem.

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/

It's all regarding real paper submitted to a scholarly journal. Complete and willful BS to test the limits of intellectual honesty of the Left... but a genuine refereed article none the less.

There is a reason that operational and academic scientists and engineers can sometimes show an "unfair" glaring contept of the humanities and "softer" sciences.

Posted by: Bill at March 25, 2004 10:23 AM

... "on the Left..." I misspoke on that one... Sokal's main beef is with the postmodernists (of which Chomsky alledgely disaproves - perhaps he knows a rival in nit-wittery when he smells it). My Bad. No graham crackers for me.

Posted by: Bill at March 25, 2004 10:25 AM

Bill,
Thanks for the link, I can see why Sokal's so pissed off with the Post-Modernists.

Most of the academics that I've had contact with in Britain are opposed to post-modernism. Admittedly most of the academics I've met work in the field of history, so I don't know that much about other areas of study. But the historians by and large would like to see every post-modernist out there hung up on meathooks. When I was at university, I had one lecture in the entire time there on post-modernism in historical study. Half of that was taken up with explaining why post-modernism doesn't work as a theory, let alone in real life.

Posted by: sam at March 25, 2004 10:37 AM

Michael, if you want honest discourse with Chomsky, simply write him. I did once, and to my suprise, he emailed back personally. In fact, we carried on a debate of sorts for a few weeks. I eventually lost interest. You needn't worry about Chomsky changing his views. He's an old dog, and has dug his hole too deep.

chomsky@MIT.EDU

I'd be happy to forward our correspondence. We were debating wether the U.S. was/is a terrorist state. He took the "yes" side, unsuprisingly.

Posted by: Zymurgist at March 25, 2004 11:00 AM

As an antidote to Chomsky's laborious prose, read Lileks. That man writes better in his sleep than most of the rest of us do wide awake.

http://www.lileks.com/bleats/

F'r'example: In today's column, he finally gets around to world events:

"Attention, Palestinian public relations agents: exquisite timing, guys. You get a nice little bump when Sauroman gets converted into a pavement stain, and all the crocodiles who lead the nations of the world get out their pre-moistened towelettes and pretend to squeeze out a few tears. So how do you capitalize on this moment? The ”world community” is outraged that Israel smoked a guy who sent men to kill children, so naturally: you send a child to kill men."

Posted by: Mike at March 25, 2004 11:00 AM

My favorite definition of post-modernism comes from the Simpsons' episode where Moe turns his tavern into an upscale bar for trendy yuppies. When Homer asks him about the decor, Moe says "It's Po-Mo." Homer looks at him blankly. "Post-modern". Still no response. "Weird for weird's sake".

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 11:02 AM

I find this all so bizarre.
You have people like Michael, who seem to want to appear responsible, encouraging people to go off and destroy another blogs comments section (while denying that that is what he is doing - wink wink). As if there needed to be any encouragement.
Then turn around, and accuse lefties of being anti-free speech!

The goons in Chomsky's comments section should be a huge embarrasement. They are cyber-black shirts. And the message seems to be - that Chomsky is important, and must be silenced.
If he were as absurd and irrelevant as you all claim, then ignoring him would be the perfect solution. But y'all are showing both your intellectual insecurities, and a baseline fasho/bullying attitude by cheering the goons on.

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 01:31 PM


Tano,

I basically agree with you, though I must admit I went in there and had my share of fun with chimpsky's blog. Don't worry thoug, we'll get bored with it, because we're just having fun;

Whereas when you of the highminded Left disrupt speech it's done in deadly earnestness. You're doing it for the good of humanity. Which means you of the highminded Left have no sense of humour. You take yourselves so goddam serious.

See the difference?

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 01:41 PM

Tano: You have people like Michael, who seem to want to appear responsible, encouraging people to go off and destroy another blogs comments section

Hey, Tano. Your mind-reading skills suck. They suck really really badly.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 25, 2004 01:42 PM

David: I basically agree with you, though I must admit I went in there and had my share of fun with chimpsky's blog.

No, David, you are full of it, too. You and Tano are both projecting.

I was quite serious when I asked everyone to be nice to Noam Chomsky. I've had other bloggers send trolls my way. It pisses me off, and I don't think very highly of them.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 25, 2004 01:49 PM

Oddly enough the comments are still there on Chomsky's blog, but they eliminated them on the other blog at the site, called "Leaving Maggie", where there were no abusive comments that I saw, just legitimate questions/discussion.

Neither of them really seem to be blogs as I understand them; no links, just commentary.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 02:03 PM

All those freepers are cyber-terrorists and e-fascists, essentially killing free speech with their cyber-violence. But what do you expect from a mindset that defends the Occupation, condemns freedom fighters as "terrorists" and defends corporate control of our media as "free speech" while bashing Cuba's media which is owned by the People?

The right-wing has shown again that they are terrorists and fascists. Unlike 9-11, this attack on Chomsky's blog was real terrorism! (I am essentially not supporting the attack on 9-11, but what can you do against the empire of Global Capital? Desparate people do desperate things!)

All the Right can do is mouth propaganda fed to them by the PR of corporate think tanks. Shame!

Posted by: Choam at March 25, 2004 02:10 PM

Pretty darn good, Choam, but you can't fool me. Nice try!

I guess parody can be distinguished from the genuine article by the fact that parody makes no secret of the outlandishness of the views, while the genuine article manages to use language to hide the outlandish views from the audience, and even from the speaker himself, as well.

Posted by: Jim at March 25, 2004 02:24 PM

Michael,

how can I be "projecting" when I'm not speaking for YOU. I admitted that trolling isn't nice, and that I was guilty of it. sheesh.

As for the rest of my post, I reiterate that even trolling can be lighthearted, unlike the heavy-handed speech suppression which the Left engages in for the betterment of humanity.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 02:40 PM

All the Right can do is mouth propaganda fed to them by the PR of corporate think tanks.

You commie putz,

Is that like the propaganda you just spouted, such as the Cuban media being "owned" by "the People" ?

Capital 'P' on people = code for the proletariat.

Or "El Pueblo" in spanish.

You've never had a free election in Cuba, and you have the nerve to defend Cuba while preaching about "freedom"?

You sound like an old school aparatchik from the now defunct Soviet Union. Go back to Cuba and "own" some more of that media. You putz.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 02:48 PM

Jim,

did I just get had???

LOL

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 02:48 PM

David: how can I be "projecting" when I'm not speaking for YOU. I admitted that trolling isn't nice, and that I was guilty of it. sheesh.

I thought you were agreeing with Tano that I wasn't serious when I asked people to be nice to Noam Chomsky. It I misunderstood you, I'm glad to hear it.

I was quite serious. Chomsky should be countered with logic, not a flamethrower. At least for the benefit of his readers, who are not accustomed to seeing him rebutted by smart people. If all Chomsky's critics appear (from the point of view of his echo-chamber cult) to be rabid right-wing fanatics, they won't learn anything and they'll just think he is oh-so much smarter and wiser.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 25, 2004 03:00 PM

First of all, take a little pity on Noam, he clearly has some obstacles to overcome in mastering a visual layout. Man that is some ugly yellow he is using.

I went over there found his entries uninteresting, but I have to admit I was amused at all of the noise in the comments section. For years in New England, Chompsky has been on talk shows and radio of his own choosing. There is something comical about an elite finally poking his little toe into the real world and having to slug it out with the huddled masses.

I figure the comments section will last a week, at best.

Posted by: bob at March 25, 2004 03:15 PM

I figure the comments section will last a week, at best.

They have already been removed.

Posted by: Catalonia at March 25, 2004 03:18 PM

I wandered over here, vaguely curious as to how you'd approach the whole Richard Clarke thing. I am highly amused to learn that you have chosen not to discuss it at all.

Posted by: Kimmitt at March 25, 2004 03:45 PM

Kimmit:

You're easily amused, apparently, and that's probably why you even consider the whole Clark thing of any serious consequence.

It's both boring, and inconsequential, unless for horse race purposes.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 04:23 PM

Kimmit, you are easily amused.

I'm swamped this week, and I'm behind on the story. I'm not sure what to make of it yet. So I haven't written anything about it.

I'm spending most of my time on my next TCS column, and it's taking a while because it's three times longer than usual.

Ha ha ha. What a laugh riot.

Remember. I do have a life outside of this blog. I'm married, too. My wife likes to see my once in a while.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 25, 2004 04:42 PM

Grant,

Does anyone here know why, pray tell, Zell Miller is still a Democrat?

He has already given that answer, so he is too old of dog to change and wants to help bring recognition and even hopes he can change what once was a great Party.

As for me? I wonder if Bush told him to stay Democrat and wreak havoc on the Democratic Base, going around rounding up all the Reagan Blue Collar Democrats he can. With Kerry as a candidate I don’t know how hard he will have to try. It is truly unprecedented, I’m sure the Democrats are just thrilled.

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 05:04 PM

Y'know, I've been wondering about the Clarke thing too.

Very interested to see how people respond. I've checked in on my list of rw blogs and found two general themes. Either a very bizarre silence (lets face it - most bloggers are all over any event that has political significance) or just a complete buy-in to the WH ad hominems.

So I guess there are some of us who are truly interested in how wannabe-serious folks think about all this.

Shall I start it off?
To me there are two big messages coming from the testimony.

One. The Clinton administration had some fundamental, systemic problems in dealing effectivly with the threat, as they were living through the evolution of the threat from a relativly minor one to a very major one. Compared to what they should have done, in an ideal world, they can be hugely faulted. Compared to the RW incessant castigation of them, they actually emerge looking very serious and responsible, in a relative threat. They apparently were tracking the situation, were elevating their concern level as the threat grew, and seemed to be in the process of converging on the proper approach. Implementing the proper approach did not seem to go very smoothly however.

Two. The new Bush administration seemed to infected with a very unserious and dangerous impulse. Namely - define themselves as the anti-Clintonians. Some old Clinton hand tells them - this is serious - the impulse is, well, we'll take our time to figure it out for ourselves, thank you very much.
And what did they come up with? Seven months of analysis to come up with a plan that had, as part one, a new diplomatic outreach to the Taliban. To be followed by sanctions, if necessary. To be followed, in maybe three years, by military action with surrogates. Maybe, after all that, some American boots on the ground. In other words, a plan that would probably have been LESS aggressive than what the Clintonians would have come up with had the continued to be in office.

Final huge message coming from these hearings. The great swoooshing sound you hear is all the air going out of the Republican myths that have been built up over these past few years. That the Clintonians were "feckless", focussed on "law enforcement" and basically impotent in the face of the threat. As opposed to the hawkish, aggressive Bushies. In fact, there was far more seriousness in the Clinton administration than anyone on the right has ever been willing to admit. And far less seriousness amongst the Bushies, pre-9/11.

Such that an immensly well qualified, non-partisan, serious expert, very much on the inside, can see the result of the transition as a downgrading of the anti-terrorism effort.

From just listening to the vast RW media and blogging universe,,,,who woulda thunk it?

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 05:09 PM

Tano,

I admit I should be more interested in the Clark story. I guess I tuned out when I concluded that Clark was implying Bush should have accomplished in 8 months what Clinton did not accomplish in 8 years. The illogic of that simply did not persuade me this was a serious story, and I've been mostly ignoring it. I plead guilty to that.

But regarding your statement that those in the Bush administration were too busy proving they were anti-clinton to pursue his awesome counter-terrorism plan, if that's so, then why did they keep Clarke on board? Why did they keep Tenet on board? The answer to this is because the Bush administration was trying to prove no such thing. In fact, they wanted continuity, and they got it. The rest is history.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 05:19 PM

My thought on Clarke is that he blew it with his over the top comments on 60 Minutes, plus the Fox background briefing where he basically contradicted everything he said to Leslie Stahl. Saying "I was lying then but I'm telling the truth now," is not very convincing. Plus of course there is the book issue; he'd be a lot more credible if he'd started his testimony by announcing that he was donating his profits on the book to charity.

Don't get me wrong; I absolutely believe Bush has been damaged by this because most people will not be surfing around to get the information necessary to understand that the guy's not credible, he's just trying to sell a book to the Michael Moore brigade.

On some points I also agree with him. Do I think both the Clinton and Bush administrations underestimated the terrorist threat? Sure. Do I think that mistakes were made? Absolutely. Do I think that Bush & Co were obsessed with Iraq? Maybe. But do I think that Sandy Berger would have prevented 9-11 the way Clarke implied? No way, Jose.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 05:42 PM

dont waste my time just mouthing the WH talking points, will ya?
Clarke did not, in any way, imply that Bush was supposed to accomplish in 8 months what Clinton had 8 years to do. That is such utter nonsense.

First off, al-Q was not an issue when Clinton took office. The nature of the threat emerged over the first term, and did not begin to be clear till 95 or 96. Thereafter, the threat, and the response evolved and grew. It was, as has been mentioned endlessly, a fundamentally new type of threat, and responding to it took a lot of creative thinking. I accept completely that the Clintonians can be greatly faulted for not doing an adequate job in that. What Clarke wanted, and what any sane person would want, would be for the new administration to pick up the ball where the old administration had left it. Sure you can do your own assessment on the side. But you dont just pretend that the world has stopped while you figure out what your plan is.
In fact if the Clintonians had stayed in power they should have been doing the same thing. In all policy areas you need to do the same type of thing. Two prongs. Keep the momentum going on the policies in place, and rethink strategy at the same time. So that at some point, if necessary, you can change course. But you dont take a vacation from the day-to-day while you think about the big picture.

The perfect example is the Cole. Happened in October. General sense of conviction that it was al-Q by December. But no final clear assertion (by CIA) of guilt till Jan. or Feb. Should Clinton have run with the preliminary judgements in Dec. and done something? Yeah, probably. Even though he was a lame duck at the time. I'll fault him there. But should the Bushies have done something in Feb? I say, absolutely. Rumsfeld's claim that it was "stale" by then, is nothing short of outrageous. The killing of 17 US servicemen has a stature of limitations of four months?????? A slightly late response would somehow not have had any effect?????
What was the justification for this inaction? That it "happened on Clinton's watch"???? And you tell me that this doesnt evidence a downright bizarre partisan mentality from people who should be focussed on the national interest?

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 05:47 PM

Y'know, I've been wondering about the Clarke thing too.

Very interested to see how people respond. I've checked in on my list of rw blogs and found two general themes. Either a very bizarre silence (lets face it - most bloggers are all over any event that has political significance) or just a complete buy-in to the WH ad hominems.

Option 3 -- some of us are about as sick of this commission and especially of Clarke as the left was of the Clinton impeachment circus.

To prove my point, I didn't even read the rest of your comment because I've had enough of The World According to Clarke for now. (sigh)

Posted by: Mason at March 25, 2004 05:52 PM

Tano, what about the embassy bombings in 1998? We knew bin Laden was responsible for those incidents. Bill Clinton bombed an aspirin factory in the Sudan (which, keeping this on topic, Chomsky claims resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands) and destroyed a couple of mud huts in Afghanistan in response.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 05:52 PM

Whoop.. that second paragraph should have been italicized too.

Posted by: Mason at March 25, 2004 05:54 PM

Oh, and speaking of Rumsfeld.
There was just an absolutly PRICELESS interview with him on the NewsHour tonite.

Jim Lehrer made reference to Clarke's apology to the 9/11 families, and assertion of the governments failure, and he asked Rumsfeld if he, as SecDef, felt any sense of failure for 9/11 happening.
Rumsfeld basically said "no". And the reason? As SecDef, his responsibilites lie overseas, and the 9/11 attacks, using domestic aircraft, entirely within the homeland, were....
get this...
a LAW ENFORCEMENT issue.

Wow. I mean, we dont even have to get into the issue of whether defending the Pentagon is a law enforcement matter (it aint), lets just jump straight to the issue of the guiding mentality re. terrorism that apparently was in force in the Bush administration on that day. EXACTLY the mentality that they accuese, with great hostility, the Clintonians of having.

As I said,,,,priceless....

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 06:01 PM

Ah, I see we have somebody with 20-15 hindsight in the crowd.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 06:05 PM

First off, al-Q was not an issue when Clinton took office.

Al-Qaida first bombed the Twin Towers in 1993, but you say it wasn't an issue on Clinton's watch.

You're right. BUT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN ISSUE.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 06:05 PM

Wow mason. Thanks for making my point for me. How any one with at least three or four functioning neurons, and an interest in the security of this country, can be "sick of" the 9/11 commission after two days of hearings.....
Well, the message is pretty clear. You cant, and desparatly dont want to, handle the truth.

What I find strange is this....It really has been an extremely informative and incisive set of hearings. It is bursting myths, cutting through the spin, making quite a few people sweat. There are no heros emerging in terms of things done in relation to the attacks. No real villians either. Just a very realistic picture of human failings, systemic problems, and lots of heroic efforts, across the board, by serious people trying to do their best within their own limitations.

I have to say. That you somehow cannot deal with this is pretty damning of you.

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 06:10 PM

No real villians either. Just a very realistic picture of human failings, systemic problems, and lots of heroic efforts, across the board, by serious people trying to do their best within their own limitations.

Tano,

finally you say something that makes sense. And this very realistic picture, as you put it, which I also observed when Tenet was being questioned, is why it's not much of a story.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 06:13 PM

"Al-Qaida first bombed the Twin Towers in 1993, but you say it wasn't an issue on Clinton's watch."

Heres the deal David. We can have a civil and informative discussion, but only if you play by some minimal rules of honesty and decency.

I said, quite clearly, that the threat (of al-Q, as a force) emerged over the course of his first term. I did NOT say that it "wasn't an issue on Clinton's watch." That is just downright dishonest of you.

Yeah, WTC I happend in '93. How long did it take to figure out how these bastards were? How long did it take to figure out that they were part of something big, as opposed to a few individual nutcases like McVeigh and Nichols? When was it that OBL came out and declared his war on us?

Deal with the facts man. Lets make this a no-spin zone, for real.

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 06:14 PM

Tano: dont waste my time just mouthing the WH talking points, will ya?

Don't waste my time just mouthing the DNC talking points.

(There. See how convincing that argument is?)

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 25, 2004 06:17 PM

Tano,

I misquoted you in the heat of passion, not intentionally to be dishonest. Sorry bout that. But it doesn't change the substance of my statement, which is that if the bombing happened in '93, and Clinton's last term in office was 2000, how many years did that give Clinton?

But Clinton was powerless, because accusations about wagging the dog (remember Monica?) prevented him from doing anything about it. So basically, that blow job in the Oval Office may have cost the lives of thousands on 9/11.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 06:20 PM

I'm a little fuzzy on this date stuff.

"The nature of the threat emerged over the first term, and did not begin to be clear till 95 or 96".

If memory serves, the WTC was bombed in 1993. It killed six people, injured 1000, and was an attempt to structurally collapse at least one tower. Had it been successful certainly the fatalities would have been multiples of what New York sustained during 9/11.

IMHO, the issue with Clinton was not that he didn't understand the implications of where this was going. He's an extremely bright and capable man. The problem was that he wasn't willing to go to the bully pulpit and make a case that there was a serious threat to our nation. He knew it didn't suit the political leanings of his own constituency, and the shoe would most likely fall on the watch of some future commander in chief.

I'm sure he recognizes the taint on his legacy that it happened so soon after he left office.

Posted by: bob at March 25, 2004 06:21 PM

"And this very realistic picture, as you put it, which I also observed when Tenet was being questioned, is why it's not much of a story."

Well, maybe I'm not being fair to you, but it strikes me that your response feeds right into one of my points. The "realistic picture" is not much of a story becase it utterly fails to support, and in fact undermines, the great dichotomous myths that partisans have built up around these issues. Feckless dems, and grown-up republicans - taken to the limits.

That what gets your juices flowing I guess. Some good partisan red meat, well within the confines of the prevailing myths.
The real world can be so borrrrrrrrrring...

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 06:27 PM

Oh thanks Michael.
Hell, I wasnt even talking to you.

So fine. I will admit, that of the 100 lines I just wrote in the past half hour, that was a particularly uninformative one.
You have anything to say about the rest of them?

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 06:29 PM

In fairness a link between Al Qaeda and the WTC bombing in 1993 has never been firmly established. Interestingly enough (and commonly ignored) there is a link to Saddam, in that he sheltered Abdul Rahman Yasin.

However, Al Qaeda was involved in the 1998 embassy bombings.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 06:30 PM

Feckless dems, and grown-up republicans - taken to the limits.

To be perfectly honest, I'm more interested in what the Dems and Republicans can do about it in the future, rather than in blaming Clinton or Bush using 20/20 hindsight. And that's all Clarke is doing. But it can go both ways. So, short of a demonstration of criminal negligence by either Bush or Clinton, the Clarke story just isn't that much of a story to me personally. And obviously it isn't much of a story to the host here either.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 06:35 PM

bob,
I tried to make the point, that you have not addressed, that although the WTC bombing happened in '93, there was no sense of an organization like al-Q till several years later.
You seem to imply that once we caught the actual guys who did it, we, as a nation, or at least the gov't suddenly had a complete picture of al-Q, bin laden, and the outlines of the actual threat. Such that he could mount the bully pulpit and speak to the nation about a defined enemy.

But that does not seem to me to be the case at all. Even Dick Armitage (as I seem to recall) spoke about the the outlines of the real nature of the threat emerging only in '96.

I am not trying to reflexivly defend Clinton here. What did he know and when did he know it - let the chips fall where they may. But I havent heard anything serious to indicate that the real nature of the threat was knowable until a few years after WTC I.
You have any other info?

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 06:35 PM

"But Clinton was powerless, because accusations about wagging the dog (remember Monica?) prevented him from doing anything about it. So basically, that blow job in the Oval Office may have cost the lives of thousands on 9/11."

Wow. Talk about blaming the victim.
Who made the accusations about wagging the dog?

Let me rephrase things for you.
The inability of republicans to support the president of the united states on matters of national security, because of their partisan blood lust, and their refusal to give him any political support for anything he did, ended up costing thousands of people......
blah blah.
I dont really want to make such an argument, but if we are going to go there at all.....

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 06:45 PM

tano

Get the feeling that your in a one person conversation?

Posted by: vic at March 25, 2004 06:49 PM

On the bright side; you've never had troll traffic like Dr. Chomsky is drawing. It is totally unfortunate. A real debate would be entertaining.

Posted by: J.R. at March 25, 2004 07:11 PM

yes vic, I do.
And I am kinda disappointed.
I guess this aint quite the kind of place I hoped it was.
ciao....

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 07:12 PM

Guess he was looking for a place where the pro-war crowd admits that Bush really is a dope who lied so he could avenge the attempted assassination of his dad. Around here we get our marching orders from Rush Limbaugh and the White House, right? No thought here, just recitation of the talking points.

:)

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 07:25 PM

tano,

You know tano you never answered this so before I address any more ridiculousness you said…

Richard Clarke is one of the most honorable public servants this country has.

Do you personally know him tano? Well I’ll tell you tano first I live in Washington and second I have traveled inside Democratic circles for years and never met you. I know what I know and you aren’t worthy of knowing it. I would venture to guess half of the people who post on this page are or were Democrats and aren't impressed by your "chime right in with the sleazy politics of personal destruction". I know I’m not. I'm sure you think Richard Clarke is honorable like Clinton. Of course you know Bill was a victim as well.

Well I can tell you oh wise tano through personal experience that I never witnessed a man who sought to destroy people opposition and supposed enemies without regard to person, family or soul more than Bill Clinton and that wicked wife of his, and I have met both, eaten dinner with both and will leave that there. Richard Clarke did a hack job on this Administration and his prior service is irrelevant to that fact. Am I off the deep end as you say? Not anymore, but I sure was as I was handing thousands of dollars over to you pure Democrats and doing dirty work on behalf of the pure. The fact that you say what you say is not what is damning it is the utter ignorance of what you say.

As far as a Richard Clarke being a man respected and trusted by serious people in 4 administrations? Utter foolishness. Richard Nixon was Vice President for two terms, elected President twice, and won 49 States almost 2-1 in Popular Votes, the greatest Presidential Victory ever, yet he left office in utter disgrace less then three years later. It can happen to anybody.

Richard Clarke became bitter and played get even, you are partisan if you don’t see it. You say He merely reveals the truth, and thus somewhat demythologizes their made up account of how tough they were on terrorism from day 1. Yea wise tano? Truth in the world of Democrats? What made up account? You must be joking. The joke is on you because you will never know what I know. Your jabs behind soft compliments are stabs of the worst kind As a partisan democrat, I found the hearings to actually humanize the Bush administration. You are as transparent as Richard Clarke. Just because you believe fantasy don’t expect the ex-Democrats like me not read you and be the ever more repulsed.

I don’t mind the differing opinions I’m married to one. The speaking out of your ass about things I know you don’t know is more than I can take. Tano when you say Dick Clarke did more in one day at work than any of you have ever done for the interests of this country and its people. Which day are you talking about. Were you driving him somewhere? How over the top can you be? Do you know what I or anyone else here has done?

This last phrase tano belongs to you from your own mouth Y'all make it clear the extent to which you put partisanship ahead of patriotism; upholding the partisan myths and spin of your team over the truth…Shameful performance.

You tano are a know nothing wannabe. You backed nothing up and just made statements disparaging people. You defended someone you don’t know. Hey tano if I tell you something about Ken Starr it is because I know Ken Starr. If I say something about Congressman Jim Moran, it is because I know Jim Moran. If I say something about Senator Orin Hatch, it is because I know Orin Hatch, and guess what tano the jokes on you. I have met Richard Clarke on more than one occasion, have you? I usually leave such stuff of the table and avoid name dropping, but as I sit in front of the television and watch the hearings my blood boils! Why tano? Because I was a big inside Democrat with many ties and I promised my wife to lay low and not make it hard for my family that’s why. I look forward to the day. Again I know what I know. You know nothing!

tano I will add something I said later to another naysayer it applies to you as well…

First of all I’ve met Clinton on 6 different occasions and had an immediate relative working in the Whitehouse. Want proof? Tough shit, reject what you want. I’ve posted probably 100 times being modest about such things. Yesterday was bullshit, I’ve reached my limit. Yea I should have probably shut up because your pop was inevitable I’ve waited for it. Don’t worry I will resist “casting my pearls before swine” for lack of a better phrase in the future but until then...

I sit here and read someone talking about the virtues of a man who certainly was well respected, and I do know what I know, and I see a smug (Richard Clarke) angry man grinding an axe, smugly playing a get even gotcha game at such a serious time. He is in over his head. If Bush were like Clinton he would be cooked. I had the rare opportunity to have Ken Starr coach my daughter in softball while he was impeaching our wonderful Bill Clinton, with me still supporting my man Clinton the whole way, I gagged on my conscience the whole time, it is a wonder I still have one. All while Clinton and Co. sought to ruin Starr a more decent man than I and I did nothing!

Richard Clarke like many was also obviously ruined by the culture of the Clinton Whitehouse because it has gotten to him. You are stuck with your limited knowledge of what I know, stay suspicious of me, but stay more suspicious of Clarke and any other person that came out of the Clinton Whitehouse, or spent too much time in Washington. I’m sure Roger could tell you the dangers of circulating within the incestuous inner-pools of Hollywood I’ll leave that to him. There exists a similar political atmosphere here and obviously Richard Clarke got caught up in incestuous political inbreeding and forgot who he was and what he was about.

If any one here will ever know what I know it will be Roger and I have a feeling that day is coming. You will have to be content to stew in your ignorance. I paid a lot of money to know what I know. But it is mine I paid for it and I will dispense it to those I know and trust. Until then one can either find joy or irritation in my ranting because that is all I offer.

tano, are you a cave troll or mountain troll?

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 07:27 PM

Hey sammy,
You know what I really think?
I think it is time for your meds.

(for the rest of the folks here - let me help out dear sammy and point out that he is responding to something I wrote on a completely different site - just so you dont think he is a complete nutjob who hears voices in his fillings or something.....)

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 07:39 PM

Hey Samuel, in what capacity did you meet Clinton, and what did you pay for with that money of yours? Just curious.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 07:43 PM

Who made the accusations about wagging the dog?

It wasn't Bush. And it wasn't Bush who's sole purpose in office was to leave with some kind of a legacy, perhaps at the expense OF DOING HIS FRIGGIN JOB.

Posted by: David at March 25, 2004 07:45 PM

tano,

You are a joke you didn't respond yesterday. You stir trouble and run, and that is your response today? You want to keep making statements asking questions you haven’t answered yesterdays questons! What is your game tano? I've never voted for a Republican. Not yet anyway. You are an embarrassment for what dignity may be left on my former side of the political aisle. You can’t show real substance or seriousness. What is your objective?

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 07:48 PM

David, email me tell me about yourself and I will consider answering your request, I promise.

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 07:50 PM

Prior to 9/11 neither President would have had the American public's support regarding the concept of waging war in the vicinity of the Middle East against a nationless enemy.

As far back as 1979, I can recall public opinion as striving for peace in the Middle East no matter the cost. Hundreds of terrorist acts have been committed against US interest resulting in US deaths worldwide during the past two decades with each act aggressively more effective in nature.

All the while the American public was demanding from our government less attention to our national defense policies and more attention to our domestic policies, towards peacetime policies, which inversely opened the door for the devastating events on 9/11 to occur.

The American public was simply unwilling to recognize the rising tide of radical islamic terrorist threats before them.

After 9/11 the majority of public opinion clearly understands the reality and nature of this threat. It is public opinion which pressed the issue of war on our government, not our government pressing the issue upon the public. 9/11/01 was the day that changed America, it was the day the American public untied our government's hands.

President Bush did not lead us into war, it was us who led him.

And our enemy is not one another, our enemy is the terrorist.

Posted by: syn at March 25, 2004 07:56 PM

Sam,
First off. Write in complete sentences. Aint nobody going to believe that you are some bigshot if you cant express yourself coherently for at least a paragraph.

Secondly, an obvious point. Your claims to "insider" knowledge are so silly as to be a complete cartoon. You really do sound like someone typing away in a padded room in St. Mary's (hey geuss where I live!). Even if you were to manage to make these arguments in a voice that at least sounded rational, they still would amount to a vacuuos appeal to authority. But you make them sounding like a nutjob, so what is anyone to think? If you "know" something, then say what you know, or else go play golf.

Third. So what is you great question? I aint running away. Here I am. Ask your questions.

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 07:59 PM

Aaahh.........finally some perspective.

Thanks syn

Posted by: vic at March 25, 2004 08:01 PM

syn

President Bush did not lead us into war, it was us who led him.

We led the President to Iraq?

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 08:02 PM

Totten,
I have deleted a grand total of five comments. Ever.

That's more likely because you don't have nearly the name recognition of Chomsky. Simple proportional arithmetic gets you numbers of that scale. It's also because there are a lot of boneheads posting on Chomsky's site. Some posts have also alluded to violence as well.

Posted by: Graham at March 25, 2004 08:21 PM

"First off. Write in complete sentences."

That's pretty rich for someone who can't spell, can't find the apostrophe key and apparently can't carry on two conversations at once. Oh, and "First off" is not a complete sentence.

He's just a troll, folks.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 25, 2004 08:21 PM

tano

First off it is Samuel. Second you are asking me to be coherent? Third I do live in Washington and everything I said is true. Of course to you that is silly and cartoonish, your perspective of life is silly and cartoonish. You are not a serious person tano. I know you don't know Washington and how it works for sure. I could be Neil Armstrong and have been to the moon and if it didn't fit you would spend all you time endeavoring to prove otherwise. I don't need to prove to you who I am. You said Richard Clarke was an honorable man. One doesn’t even have to have the personal knowledge of him that I have to know while once true. It is no longer the case anymore than the fact that Nixon in 1974 had lost the credibility of Nixon 1960. Same goes for Clinton as well. You chose to follow whomever. Speak of what you know. Is Clinton an honorable man? Is he more honorable than Bush?

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 08:22 PM

Wow mason. Thanks for making my point for me. How any one with at least three or four functioning neurons, and an interest in the security of this country, can be "sick of" the 9/11 commission after two days of hearings.....
Well, the message is pretty clear. You cant, and desparatly dont want to, handle the truth.

What I find strange is this....It really has been an extremely informative and incisive set of hearings. It is bursting myths, cutting through the spin, making quite a few people sweat. There are no heros emerging in terms of things done in relation to the attacks. No real villians either. Just a very realistic picture of human failings, systemic problems, and lots of heroic efforts, across the board, by serious people trying to do their best within their own limitations.

I have to say. That you somehow cannot deal with this is pretty damning of you.
Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 06:10 PM

Tano, how dare you question my interest in the security of this country. I think this entire commission is a circus -- doing more harm than good for our security -- with Clarke as the head clown. My three or four functioning neurons have come to the conclusion that Clarke has unequivocally discredited himself. I'd rather see our government spend it's time eliminating the terrorists instead of raking Tenet, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and the rest of them over the coals again and again and again.

As Michael said upthread, your mind reading skills are clearly lacking.

It's clear to me that you're more interested in throwing anything and everything you can at Bush, desperately hoping something sticks.

I have to say: That you somehow cannot deal with people who have reasonably reached conclusions other than your own is pretty damning of you.

Posted by: Mason at March 25, 2004 08:35 PM

Hello! This is not Noam Chomsky's blog (you know, MIT professor, most cited academic alive?). Geez.

97 comments and no one bothers to check this out? Look, I don't like saying this, but my lord!

Posted by: harry at March 25, 2004 08:35 PM

I imagine Noam was totally unprepared for the harsh reality that there were other people and they had opinions not set by Noam.

Typical leftist response from him - shut down and silence anything you don't like.

When reality makes you look bad, silence it and ignore it. It might go away. Noam couldn't have comments because they would force him back to Earth. Noam has no interest in Earth.

Posted by: Roark at March 25, 2004 08:41 PM

Mason

Amen, anyone with any sincerity can see that Richard Clarke is a turncoat. I do believe the Clinton culture got to him. Shame.

Pat

tano, (and a few of the others) are trolls. I just don't know which kind. Mountain or Cave?

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 08:47 PM

tano

It has been over 30 minutes. Be back later. If it is a tag you’re it, type of adolescent game I see you play don’t bother. You criticize my writing? I’m Hemingway compared to you. Oh and guess what tano? I’m a multi-millionaire. But that doesn’t matter because it isn’t true to you in your fantasyland. But of course it is true, and that is all that matters to me. Later.

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 08:57 PM

yes. Richard Clarke is an honorable man.

I find it so strange. There seems to be very few people here who seem capable of accepting that honorable people can disagree.

What kind of a nation, what kind of a polity can we have when free thinking men and women, who live through a set of events, and interpret them in ways that differ from the "party line", must instantly be castigated and condemned as immoral or dishonorable to some extent or another. So many mouth platitudes to freedom, and yet, with great viciousness, enforce a strict party line. It isnt just Clarke. There has now been a succession of Bush administration veterans who have soured on what they have seen. Though they dont go off ranting like our lil' Sammy, they do express their own personal point of view, and it is different than the myths.

Why cant y'all deal with that? Why do you all seem emotionally incapable of saying "well,,,Clarke is clearly a patriot, and an honorable man, but I simply disagree with him"?
Thats allowed y'know. Neither I nor anyone else has been making the case the Richard Clarke is god, that he has some objective perspective - that his point of view is the only correct one. I imagine that all of you have had the experience of living through some event, say at work, or maybe (especially) at home, where someone you respect, or even love, comes away with a very different take on things that happened. Why cant you simply accept that Clarke is who he is, lived through what he lived through, and sees things the way he does. And that as we all try to peice together a picture of what is really going on in our government, that that is one piece of the puzzle.

But no. Everywhere I turn these days in right-wing-land, I see nothing but vicious ad hominems, and a blatant refusal to deal with the issues, at least by most.
The lack of rational response does nothing but increase Clarkes credibility.

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 09:21 PM

tano,

The name is Samuel not Sammy you have proven yourself a troll, good day.

Posted by: Samuel at March 25, 2004 09:28 PM

Sam,
So thats your great question?
Personally, I dont think Bush or Clinton are honorable men, by my standards. I would certainly trust Bush over Clinton to take my daughter's girl scout troop to a ball game. I would certainly trust Clinton over Bush with making public policy for our nation.

And gee, I didnt realize you were a multimillionaire. I wonder what I am supposed to make of that.....

Posted by: tano at March 25, 2004 09:38 PM

Samuel;

Tano stalks you from over at Roger L.Simon's blog.

He's just jealous.

Posted by: Mark at March 25, 2004 11:09 PM

UPDATE: Chomsky's comments have been disabled. That became inevitable almost instantly.
*************************************************
No Freedom of speech? LOL

Posted by: Dan Kauffman at March 26, 2004 12:25 AM

Samuel

Yes.

Iraq is not the War itself, it is one battle in the War.

Posted by: syn at March 26, 2004 06:02 AM

Samuel,

I can't access your email. I'm just an unemployed joe studying for the Bar exam as I attempt to make a carreer change.

dcbatlle@yahoo.com

Posted by: David at March 26, 2004 08:54 AM

"But I havent heard anything serious to indicate that the real nature of the threat was knowable until a few years after WTC I.
You have any other info?"

Sorry for not getting back sooner on this. Been heads down.

I think what you are saying is that without an understanding of the organizational structure of al-Qaeda, we really didn't have an appreciation of what we were up against (i.e. radically militant jijadists.)

I would argue that the WTC attack (version 1.0) could have easily been a disaster much worse than what we suffered in 9/11. What if the explosion caused a fire on the lower floors of the tower and incapacitated the elevators and evacuation routes? Why after such an attack would you characterize the thread as not being "real", regardless of what we knew or did not now about the formal organizational structure of AQ.

The intent to do massive carnage was there. The enemy simply lacked the logistics and expertise to carry out their plan.
It was the low body count that allowed the administration to pass on this issue.

As an average citizen, I was dismissive of the attack. It killed only a few people and was executed in a slip-shod manner.
Remember the guy who was caught simply because he signed his name to the rental agreement for the truck containing the explosives?

In retrospect I was stupid. However I was also not the commander in chief who took a Bible in his hand and swore to protect and defend his nation. Clinton blew it, so to a lesser extent did GWB.

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Dear Samuel,
Perhaps you are correct about your observations and the likes. The fact that your tone of voice is akin to that of a raving lunatic is offsetting to the points you have to make.
Tano it is true that Clarke has weathered multiple presidencies but it doesn't stop him from being a bitter megalomaniac. He has been fondly called the terrorist tzar to my faint recollection and woe to anyone who stands in his way. He may or may not be correct and it is up to further scrutiny to decide although he certainly does enjoy the attention.
On an offshoot, doesn't anyone else find it intriguing Condoleezza Rice won’t testify under oath? Please don’t say that this is getting too much unnecessary media coverage. The 9-11 commission does not get even the fraction of the press that the Lewinsky scandal did because I don't yet know what Gap item GWB was wearing, or if it was stained.

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Actually, I can critique Chomsky's intelligence. There's often a wide gap between genius and a reputation for genius, and Chomsky is one of the most intellectually lazy "great thinkers" of our generation. Anyone who could write something this lame is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Chomsky's apostles are fond of appealing to authority whenever the Master's utterances are challenged by an unbeliever. What's particularly sad about this is that Chomsky's authority is derived from his contributions to the field of linguistics -- which are considerable, and generally poorly understood. They bear no relationship to his politics, as Chomsky would be the first to admit. And even if they did, they would not make his politics immune from the criticism that they richly deserve.

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" murderous gangsters supported by the US and UK: Ceausescu, Suharto, Marcos, Duvalier, Chun, Mobutu.... "

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