Let me be the first to say this evil cretin should have been killed years ago. A great victory for the forces of civilization!

Saruman is overthrown.

David: Saruman is overthrown.

I thought about saying that, but figured I'd leave the fun for someone else. :)

Allah does it best, of course.

Score one for the good guys.

Actually, DU seems really lucid right now. That scares me. Next thing you know, FreeRepublic will start to tone down and kick out its wackos.

Saruman is overthrown.

Posted by David at March 21, 2004 08:38 PM

http://subintsoc.net/situationroom/index.php?m=200309#298

Israel:
Yassin down, Rantisi to go.

US:

Atef and Saddam down, Bin Laden, Zawahiri, and Mullah Omar to go.

Allah does it best, of course.

Here's the (much-updated) link.

Outstanding! Might as well get Arafat while they're at it. In for a penny, in for a pound.

The BBC is making much of Yassin having been in a wheelchair, concluding that "the overall lesson to be drawn from these events is that there is really no prospect for peace, that the roadmap has been rolled up and that another 20 years of war is the most likely scenario." Some of us would say that only by hitting back -- hard -- at terrorists is there any chance at all of peace.

The full BBC account is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3556593.stm

20 years more, ha ha ha!!!
The Beeb didn't even wait 20 weeks for Iraq to be a quagmire; in less than 20 months it will have become a democracy! (I hope.)

Great news. I think (hope?) more Palis will start thinking: if we get rid of Arafat, and terrorists, we can have our own state, and peace with Israel, and maybe even a free press -- within 20 months, like what regime change brought to Iraq.
Just dump Arafat & terrorists.
Now.

When will that damn wall ever be finished?

rafaelrobertdelfin.com

So John Kerry's username is chimpymustgo?

As to trying these bastards in court, we actually tried to get UBL extradited, and it is likely the Israel tried to do the same for Yassin, or were realistic enough that they did not go through the motions since it would never happen.

As far as inciting revenge, since Hamas starts from the position of driving the Jews into the sea, they don't have a lot of room to go on the marginalization front.

Finally, with regard to the allegation that killing terrorists only causes more terror, since folks who believe that overlap a lot with the 'treat it as crime' folks, some wisdom from Scott Adams:

Dilbert: I oppose putting career criminals in jail for life. Theres no evidence that longer sentences reduce crime.

Dogbert: So your theory is that when career criminals are in jail, other people commit more crimes to keep the average up

See, I always thought that the problem with Jew-killers like Yasin was that they didn't go in for those snappy uniforms like Heydrich and that crowd.

I mean, if you're going to advocate genocide, at least look well-dressed and well turned-out while doing it. Don't go around in a bathrobe like Saruman the White!

Props to the IDF for cancelling this ass-clown's lunch ticket.

I don't see how this can be viewed as anything other than good news for civilization.

I'm sure this creature will have a toasty time in Hell.

However - and sorry to be the one to to piss in the punch bowl - does anyone think this might lead to the long-threatened Hamas strikes in the U.S. itself?

I figured such attacks would be coming eventually, no matter what we did, but I wonder if this will be what kicks them off.

People like Yassin make me wish I was a Christian just so I could belive that they are going to hell for the rest of eternity.

No body with a rational grip on the situation is gonna cry tears for Yassin.

But as for your update, Michael, I dunno. Why troll for inadequate celebration on DU? In five minutes I could find a load of ridiculously offensive drivel on Free Republic. We all know that some people on both sides are extreme. What's the point?

Yassin was calling for global Hamas Terror years ago, it has never happened, it won't happen now Percy.

Nice to see Micheal Post the news of Yassin's demise so elegantly. "Got the Bastard" :-)

Hamas has already threatened American targets, while this is a bad thing as innocent people will be hurt in killed in America, it would sign the death warrant for Hamas, I mean would you target Ameicans with the 4th ID, 3rd ID and the Marines in Iraq. Plus it would re-energize the Jacksonian spirit. Hamas - be careful what you wish for, the mother of all battles usually goes badly for our enemies. Hopefully the IDF will just continue to roll up on Hamas and thier bluster is the usual Arabic posturing.

I think one of the best quotes on this I've seen so far comes from the comments board over at Tacitus.

"As a Democrat, a liberal and a man of peace, I'd just like to say...

...I'm glad they finally got the bastard."

Nice article Michael.

Perhaps we need a niche for Mr. Kerry, H'mmm "Fillmorian" seems to fit (see Compromise of 1850).

"As a Democrat, a liberal and a man of peace, I'd just like to say...

I wish I knew more Dems with that kind of clarity. Seriously, I'm just sitting here waiting for the Liberals to go after Israel for this. Something about a "lack of due process" on the part of Israel perhaps, or how Rantissi was a cripple, or something inane like that.

Yeah, due process is totally inane.

Yeah, due process is totally inane.

What about "due process" for terrorists? Inane?

Pretty disgusting, Michael. Assassinations are not for civilized nations. How you can cheer murder and knowing disregard for innocent bystanders is beyond me. Not even the Bush administration agrees that it was a good thing.

I don't care what kind of evil bastard Yassin was (and he was one). Israel makes clear they are morally no different. They kill without discretion, from a position of ethnic hatred. They certainly don't expect this to IMPROVE the situation they face, do they?

No, not inane. Screw this Rah, Rah machismo. Our democracy in built on inviolate values. We ought to believe in those values and believe in spreading them. It's, you know, the fifth amendment. And it's what we're trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not going to shed tears for dead terrorists. They can rot. But something like "due process" is never inane. It's an elemental foundation of democracy and we ought to hope for it for even the worst of the worst.

Torrid Joe,

1. As a matter of fact Israelis do expect to improve their situation. That's the whole idea. And most likely when Rantisi and his subordinates get killed the situation will improve even more. This is quite a selective killing, isn't it?

2. How do you know that Israelis "kill without discretion, from a position of ethnic hatred"?

Most nations carefully avoid using assassination as a political tool simply because it can be used against them as well in retaliation. Summary execution as a tool of policy isn't something to cheer about.

1. I'm sure the IDF thinks it will improve the situation, but history doesn't provide much evidence. And I don't believe a majority of the Israeli populace thinks it will ultimately help, either.

2. Because they just did it. Firing missiles into a group of people, only one of whom is the target, is indiscriminate. If you wish to believe the killings were not predicated on ethnic hatred, I can't stop you. It is, I freely allow, an unprovable opinion I hold.

Torrid Joe,

1. Surprise, most support the assassinations. See foe example: http://allisonkaplansommer.blogmosis.com/
There were in the past polls on this topic which clearly showed majority's support. Can't find the link now.

2. While Yassin has been the main target, his body gaurds were the secondary targets. Of the total of 8 killed there were at least 5 targets.
Others were perhaps the lamentable collateral casualties.
This is clearly not an ethnic hatred based killing. And other killings were mostly similar.

3. Your moral equivalencing clearly shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

1. I missed where your link reflected any kind of serious inquiry into the matter. In any case, I said nothing about "supporting" the assassinations; I asked whether they thought it would help. Interestingly, the link you gave seems to indicate that they believe it will not.

2. What were the official crimes the bodyguards had been charged with? How can the others be called "collateral targets?" They were ALL, strictly speaking, targets. If you are firing into a group of people, you are targeting them. It stretches logic to believe that those not specifically targeted for assassination, will be protected from it because they are not specific targets. If you fire a missile at someone, you've targeted them.

3. Hamas kills people without regard to their involvement in the war on terrorism. Israel kills people without regard to their involvement in the war on terrorism. Discuss.

Pretty disgusting, Michael. Assassinations are not for civilized nations.

Torrid,

Here we go. I knew it was coming from your morally bankrupt side of the aisle--the faux outrage, and protestations of what constitutes "civilized" and what not.

Yes, in the hands of Lefties such as yourself, due process is indeed inane. It's inane because by the standards you hold civilized countries, there would not be single arab or third world country that you could count as "civilized".

Yassin was not a perp under Israeli legal jurisdiction. He was not a suspect, he did not do things in secret, or deny them in any way. But he did them openly under color of "resistance". He was a MILITARY target, the founder of a deadly terrorist organization, and it's titular head as surely as Bin Laden is head of Al-Qaida.

He did not require "due process".

Look what the cowardly appeasers in the White House have to say about it: After initially hesitating, the Bush administration criticized Israel on Monday for killing Sheik Ahmed Yassin, a founder of the militant Palestinian group Hamas. "We are deeply troubled by this morning's incident in Gaza," the White House spokesman said.

It's a little ironic that you stand in favor of governments killing people without any rational legal basis, and then call ME morally bankrupt.

How are civilians "military targets?" People are not proper military targets for democratic governments; that's rather the point.

It's not faux outrage, don't worry.

It's a little ironic that you stand in favor of governments killing people without any rational legal basis, and then call ME morally bankrupt.

Torrid,

yes, I knew you'd react that way to my use of the term 'morally bankrupt'. I knew you think it ironic. And my conviction to use it was redoubled if only to be able to inform you that faux outrage is a poor substitute for real morality, real perspective, and real values. The predictable exercises in moral equivalency coming from your side of the aisle IS morally bankrupt and does not pass for morality by a long shot; certainly not superior morality by any stretch of the imagination.

Most nations carefully avoid using assassination as a political tool simply because it can be used against them as well in retaliation. Summary execution as a tool of policy isn't something to cheer about.

You don't know what you're talking about. If such a policy of avoidance is indeed used, it is in reference to HEADS OF STATE, and politicians of other countries--NOT TERRORISTS. Gawd you guys are dense.

What about "due process" for terrorists? Inane?

Duh, David.

Well, Stu, looks like we needn't bother engaging David on this one anymore--he's ceded the points by virtue of ad hominem attack. Moving on...

yes, I knew you'd react that way to my use of the term 'morally bankrupt'. I knew you think it ironic. And my conviction to use it was redoubled if only to be able to inform you that faux outrage is a poor substitute for real morality, real perspective, and real values. The predictable exercises in moral equivalency coming from your side of the aisle IS morally bankrupt and does not pass for morality by a long shot; certainly not superior morality by any stretch of the imagination.

okay, OKAY. You win the sanctimony sweepstakes.

That chopper pilot had good aim.

Hasta la pasta Ahmed. You won't be missed.

Torrid Joe,

For the last time:

Yassin and his body guards were all members of Hamas - a terrorist organization if there ever was one. Hamas declared war on Israel and followed on it. As such they constitute a legitimate military target. Hiding within the civilian population is a war crime, while it is legit to hunt them.

Marek:

membership in an organization is not evidence of guilt or wrongdoing. Being in the Klan is reprehensible, but just being in the Klan isn't illegal, nor should it be. Again, it's one of those democratic principles civilized nations hold dear. And what of those who were targeted who were NOT bodyguards?

Has Israel made a declaration of war against Hamas?

When you say "it is legit to hunt them," I'm sure you don't mean it is lawful to assassinate them. Not under international law, anyway.

Torrid Joe,

1. To make war is enough that one side does it.
2. Your innocent spiritual leader planned and incited others to commit terrorist actions. As such he and his co-conspirators i.e. his body guards, are war criminals, going by Geneva Convention.
3. It is legit under Geneva Convention i.e. your cherished international law, to hunt and attack enemy combatants even when they mix with civilian population. It is a war crime for combatants to hide among the civilian population
4. Others have not been targeted, they just happened to be around these combatants. They were around the terrorists by terrorists design.

As a general observation, whenever IDF carries an attack, based natuarally on ethnicity, there always are some terrorist casualties.

Is this a coincidence Joe?

Being in the Klan is reprehensible, but just being in the Klan isn't illegal, nor should it be.

The Klan isn't actively involved in destroying America and pushing all Americans into the sea. The Klan isn't involved in doing that from across the Canadian border under Canadian protection. When the Klan starts killing thousands of us, with impunity and from Canada, it becomes legal and morally permissible to wipe them out. There is no legal or moral principle that requires a person to submit to being murdered.

I love the guys who want Israel to go through some legal process to get guys like Yassin. As if it were just a matter of presenting the proper forms to Arafat and he'd hand the guy over.

You know, why do our values not matter when it comes to Middle Eastern terrorists? Which one among you would say its cool for the US government to take out Timothy McVeigh with a hellfire missile? Or is that not appropriate? How about, theoretically, a militant native american group that wanted the Mississippi basin back? Could we just execute them? What if they killed four thousand St. Louisians? What if they killed four thousand Bostonians?

I respect and believe that Yassin was a terrorist. I just can't understand why that makes it the slightest bit okay to violently kill him independent of law. The United States was built on a promise to its people and to the world that certain values rise above empty retribution. Thomas Jefferson went to his grave believing that the American revolution inspired the French revolution, that it inspired the declaration of the rights of man. Are you all so ready to sell out our values for violent retribution? Dear god, what's the point? Believe in something besides hate.

I want to know how killing a terrorist with a missile is a victory for civilization. Putting a terrorsit on trial, exposing his crimes, making an example of bad action, and then executing him in a humane method is a victory for civilization. It's Nuremberg, international recognition, standards. But no, brutality is sexy when it feels good. We are democracy. This hyperbolic nonsense leaves us as stupidly vacuous as everything we oppose.

Well said Marek - I was going to say the same thing myself.

Torrid Joe - A combatant must wear a military uniform. When a combatant hides amongst the civilian population, it is a gross violation of the Geneva convention. DISCUSS.

------------------------------
From a NY Post article in 2002:

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=11564

And international law could not be any more plain. On June 8, 1977, the Fourth Geneva Convention was updated. The document is called "Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts."

Article 37 outlaws the use of civilian populations as a shield for military actions. It explicitly prohibits "the feigning of civilian, noncombatant status; and the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict."

What the leaders of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Hamas and Islamic Jihad do is hide among civilian populations to make it as difficult as possible for their enemies to attack them. The Geneva Convention denounces this as "perfidy."

Peter Bouckaert, a researcher at Human Rights Watch in New York who sneaked into Jenin on Thursday, told the Washington Post, "It's been incredibly difficult to tell the difference between fighters and civilians. If a combatant uses the civilian population as a shield in this way, the deaths incurred are the moral and legal responsibility of those who are hiding out in this grotesquely cowardly fashion.
-------------------

harry:
Which one among you would say its cool for the US government to take out Timothy McVeigh with a hellfire missile?

Not me. In the case of McVeigh, you could simply send the FBI to arrest him before he did any harm. I advocate the minimum use of force to get the job done.

I respect and believe that Yassin was a terrorist. I just can't understand why that makes it the slightest bit okay to violently kill him independent of law

Well then you'd agree with me that Yassin fits in the same category as Bin Laden. The question then becomes - how do you apply a country's law to terrorists who hide under hostile foreign governments amongst civilian populations ?

If Bin Laden were found in the UK, then surely Britain could apply due process and charge him for war crimes. The US would want to extradite him, but he is also guilty of calling dozens of British citizens on 9-11.

You cannot however, get the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden (remember they were given an ultimatum ?)

"Which one among you would say its cool for the US government to take out Timothy McVeigh with a hellfire missile?"

If he was living, say, in Mexico, and the Mexican government refused to hand him over?

I'd say it's cool.

Two criticisms. Two suggestions.
Criticism 1)Too quick
2)Way too painless

Suggestions 1)grave should have been handicap accessible 2) They should have hit the f@#$ing funeral as well

Those of you who want to die for Allah, come to us, we will assist you.

Saruman is overthrown.

I can hear Gollum's voice now: "Nassty Zionisst hobbitses! We hates them!"

No Orcish homeland in the Shire!

My only problem with killing the sheikh is that it serves no purpose except to make the Israeli hardliners and their "amen chorus" here in america feel a little bit better for a few days, until the next suicide bombing. I would wholeheartedly support the assasination 100%, and similar assasinations against whomever these people have mind (Arafat, etc.) if it would hasten the day when the amen chorus realizes the ineffectuality of its approach to terrorism. But that won't happen.

Chalmers Johnson has a review of Brezinski's new book in the current issue of the Nation in which he makes the point that the key to fighting terrorism is to separate the passive and the active supporters of a terrorist movement, so that the passive supporters can supply intelligence on the active ones for the other side. One wins the passive supporters over by addressing their legitimate grievances.

Wow, a review of Brezinski's (sic) new book in the Nation! It must be true! After all we had so much foreign policy success during the Carter Administration.

Pat -- I read across the political spectrum, and occasionally I find something that makes sense even in the Nation.

It was a good deed. I wish I could have pulled the trigger and killed the SOB myself. Who cares about innocence. Besides if they were within fifty yards of this guy they were probably terrorists anyway.

This is the way terrorism must be fought. It needs to be decapitated. It needs to be discouraged with overwhelming force. It needs to be met with greater terror.

I know this is offensive to my faux humane Leftist couterparts; I know this is not politically correct to you weak-kneed, lilly-livered pseudo-european wannabe liberals. It's all about the "peace process", right?

Yeah, whatever. I don't care.

Here's a toast to the death of a killer.

Markus: One wins the passive supporters over by addressing their legitimate grievances.

Hamas has no legitimate grievances. They want to conquer Tel Aviv. A two-state solution (which is both legitimate and desirable) is not relevant to that fight.

Michael -- I agree that Hamas has no legitimate grievances. But many of their sympathizers probably do.

I should have added to my previous post that I'd also 100% support targeted assassinations if they reduced Hamas resistence (in addition to demonstrating the futility of all-stick, no-carrot anti-terrorism strategy). I'm not convinced they do. But I'm not the one that needs convinced...try to convince the chief of the Shin Bet security service, Avi Dichter, who according to today's NY Times also opposed the strike.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/international/middleeast/23YASS.html?pagewanted=1

Markus: Explain why you don't think killing the shiek will work. PS: Linking left-wing sites and simply saying you are not "convinced" does not magically convince anybody else (other than the usual isrealhaters).

marcus,

There are differences of opinions in Israel, you know, the democracy has its problems, and apparently Dichter didn't win the argument. And eventually somebody has to make a final call - too bad for Yassin and most likely Hamas and others.

BTW, more than 60% of Israelis support this approach and are willing to live or maybe even die with it - regardless of Brzezinski's sage advice.

jono,

Thanks - I didn't remember what partw of Geneva COnvention document covered this area.

It's annoying when people try to use the generic "international law" excuse in their posts.

This is the way terrorism must be fought. It needs to be decapitated. It needs to be discouraged with overwhelming force. It needs to be met with greater terror.

I know this is offensive to my faux humane Leftist couterparts; I know this is not politically correct to you weak-kneed, lilly-livered pseudo-european wannabe liberals. It's all about the "peace process", right?

Wrong, you splooge-gargling ass-licking bottle squatting wannabe tough guy.

Markus, fair enough, sorry if I was overly snippy there. I have actually read ONE article in the Nation that made sense, so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

I'll confess I don't know how you win over the passive supporters among the Palestinians; how can they tell you are addressing their grievances without the terrorists claiming they are the ones responsible?

RoguePlanet,

my comments weren't directed at you personally, but I guess they hit the mark.

cheers

In Jewish law, there is a concept of "din rodef", namely, that if one person is pursuing another person in order to kill them, it is an obligation to kill the pursuer before he can kill his victim, if there is no other way to stop the pursuer. This also applies to situations with the same logic though no one is physically pursuing anyone. I think it's hard to argue with this. What else are you supposed to do? Shrug and say, "We're civilized, so unfortunately we just have to let the poor guy meet his fate."? Sounds pretty uncivilized to me. Could anyone argue that such a situation did not apply to Yassin? Does anyone really think that arresting Yassin was a viable option for Israel? The morality of the strike on Yassin is crystal clear.

("Din rodef" was used as a justification for assassinating Rabin, but the completely incorrect application of the principle does not make the principle itself incorrect.)

There is a point of view that Yassin should have been captured and tried. (Never mind that imprisoning him the first time didn't work.) One could make the argument if Hamas were analagous to a domestic crime syndicate. Is it? Considering its allegiance with extra-national terror networks (Islamic Jihad's leader lives in Damascus, for instance), I'd say "no."

Toorid Joe

Did the two years old girl who was being, vainly, reanimated by Israeli medics benefit of a due process?

Another question. Are you asking US soldiers to wait for the results of trial before they fire on Hans the SS, Nguyen the Vietcong or Mahmoud the member of Iraqui Republican guard?

I am REALLY interested by your answers.

To hear the moralizing coming from the Left (famous for their moral relativity) about the Yassin execution is about as rich as it gets.

It's all relative isn't it? It's all grays isn't it? There is no objective truth, right? "The truth is in your hear", right? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter right? Killing babies in the mother's birth canal (partial birth abortions) is just choice right?

But Yassin deserved "due process". RIGHT.

"They kill without discretion, from a position of ethnic hatred."

Yeah right. That's why Israeli families donate their suicide bomber victims' organs to Palestinian children. You ignorant sanctimonious fool.

JFM--was the two year old girl a criminal? Your other examples all refer to people within the government structure, for governments on whom we had either literally or practically declared war. Yassin does not qualify under that standard. Secondly, the examples you give are for functionaries, not leaders. In any case, there is no trial to contemplate if you aren't interested in any attempt to arrest them. The IDF has free reign in the PA. If they know his movements, seek to detain him. He's in a wheelchair, for heaven's sake. How fast can he move?

Yehudit--are these Israeli families members of the IDF, currently? Do they fire missiles today and send their organs tomorrow? You'll never catch me saying that the Israeli population doesn't seek peace--the majority do. That doesn't change what is done on their putative behalf.

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