March 11, 2004

Al Qaeda in Spain?

From Fox:

MADRID, Spain — Al Qaeda has reportedly claimed responsibilty for a series of bombings Thursday that left at least 190 people dead and 1,240 wounded.

According to wire reports, Al-Quds Al-Arabi — a London-based Arabic newspaper — reported the terrorist organization said it was behind the the 10 bombs that rocked three Madrid train stations during the height of the morning rush hour.

Maybe they didn't actually do it and want to bask in the glory. But my gut tells me they did it. The Basque ETA has never been even remotely this bloodthirsty.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at March 11, 2004 12:50 PM
Comments

Now that's interesting. And I agree, Michael, ETA terroism has always been one bomb or assassination at a time.

Verrry interesting. I think the gloves are really going to come off now.

Posted by: eric at March 11, 2004 01:18 PM

It just occurs to me that this may be a change in Al-Queda tactics--that is, they're going to start targeting Europeans in Europe now.

That, I think, may bring on the war against Islam Bin Laden been trying to provoke.

Posted by: eric at March 11, 2004 01:29 PM

Wonder if Sen. Kerry still thinks the threat of terrorism is exaggerated? I'm stuck at work and I'm too angry to think.

Posted by: Kay at March 11, 2004 01:29 PM

That, I think, may bring on the war against Islam Bin Laden been trying to provoke.

Osama isn't trying to provoke a war against Islam. He believes the war against Islam has been ongoing. What he wants to do is wake muslims up to that realization.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 01:31 PM

David,

EXACTLY!!

Al

Posted by: Al at March 11, 2004 01:47 PM

I really do hope I'm wrong in this prediction, but I bet within 36 hours Kerry blames the Madrid bombings on Bush's lack of focus on Al Qaeda, and/or his preocupation with Iraq.

Old Crow in Brooklyn if I'm wrong....

Posted by: Mark Poling at March 11, 2004 01:48 PM

Unfortunately, all they will do is harden the resolve of our allies just as the Bali bombing affirmed Australia's solidarity with the coalition. Maybe a few more of the Spaniards will join the government in supporting our cause against Islaomfascism? One can only hope... The Spanish media is so vehemently opposed to the war on terror, it will certainly have to take a second look at its' position. Alas, as others have noted, they will probably just blame Bush for agitating the terrorists.

Posted by: Paolo at March 11, 2004 01:51 PM

I would like to say that despite some data pointing towards islamic terrorism, the main suspect is still ETA. The explosive used is the one they usually employ (Titadine, a TNT type explosive that they frequently steal in France). And just two months ago, a similar atack by ETA was thwarted: two terrorists were detained aboard trains enroute to Madrid with backpacks full of explosives.

This has been a really bad bad day here in Spain.

Posted by: Golan at March 11, 2004 02:00 PM

As I pointed out at Roger's site, its possible AQ got the explosives from ETA, or from the same source as ETA. Otherwise, this seems like an AQ operation to me...

Posted by: FH at March 11, 2004 02:18 PM

Golan,

perhaps Al-Qaida finds it easier to purchase their TNT from local terrorists (ETA) than to try to smuggle into the country? These birds of a feather do often have such contacts.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 02:28 PM

FH,

you beat me to it;-)

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 02:29 PM

David, you are right, that is a sound possibility. But the other fact I mentioned, that two months ago ETA tried something so similar (identical indeed) to this, keeps me from discarding them as probable authors of the monstrosity we have lived through this morning. And about two weeks ago, another two ETA terrorists were detained enroute to Madrid in a van packed with half a ton of explosives. ETA wanted to hit Madrid big time since some time ago.

Posted by: Golan at March 11, 2004 02:33 PM

I was just about to comment that this was probably al-Qaeda. Why? Because Spain, like certain other countries, doesn't suck.

We'll see. If this was in fact al-Qaeda, it tends to validate the appeaser's hope that the crocodile will eat him last.

My thanks and condolences to Golan, and to Spain.

Posted by: dipnut at March 11, 2004 02:44 PM

Thank you very much dipnut. Those are comforting words in these terrible hours. Some of the news we've had today are really unbearable: mobile phones of people already in the morgues sounding incesantly, childs in schools waiting for parents that never arrived to take them home...

Posted by: Golan at March 11, 2004 02:49 PM

Sorry for my terrible English (and when I am nervous it gets worse). That should read "incessantly" and "children".

Posted by: Golan at March 11, 2004 02:51 PM

Thank you to Spain for sending its boys to fight and die in Iraq. (Gracias a Espania por mandar a sus hijos a combatir y morir en Iraq.)

Posted by: Jim at March 11, 2004 03:23 PM

One more thing, if this is Al-Queda, then Spain, as a member of NATO, can invoke Article 5.

This is going drag in the rest of NATO, whether they want to or not.

Posted by: eric at March 11, 2004 03:36 PM

And about two weeks ago, another two ETA terrorists were detained enroute to Madrid in a van packed with half a ton of explosives.

Golan,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't ETA claim their strikes? Here ETA has made no such claim, but Al-Qaida has (or someone claiming to be AQ).

Does that influence your opinion.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 03:43 PM

And about two weeks ago, another two ETA terrorists were detained enroute to Madrid in a van packed with half a ton of explosives.

Golan,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't ETA claim their strikes? Here ETA has made no such claim, but Al-Qaida has (or someone claiming to be AQ).

Does that influence your opinion?

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 03:44 PM

And about two weeks ago, another two ETA terrorists were detained enroute to Madrid in a van packed with half a ton of explosives.

Golan,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't ETA claim their strikes? Here ETA has made no such claim, but Al-Qaida has (or someone claiming to be AQ).

Does that influence your opinion?

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 03:44 PM

David, ETA claims their strikes, but sometimes it takes them weeks to do so. About the Al-Qaida claim (in fact it's been made (using e-mail) by a group supposedly associated with AQ), I am a little dobious. The newspaper in which it has appeared hasn't got a good record in that aspect.

There has been some cases though, in which they denied involvement in attacks (clearly committed by ETA) that went too far and that they thought would hurt the image that their supporters have of them.

Posted by: Golan at March 11, 2004 03:59 PM

Golan,

My condolences to you and your countrymen. My thanks to you and your countrymen for your vigorous pursuit of the war on terror.

We will win this fight.

Be not afraid!

Posted by: spc67 at March 11, 2004 04:36 PM

My thoughts are with Spain today as well. Sincere condolences.

Posted by: d-rod at March 11, 2004 04:48 PM

Thank you very much to all of you for your words of support.

Posted by: Golan at March 11, 2004 04:53 PM

It seems there may have been a suicide bomber on one of the trains.

Posted by: linden at March 11, 2004 05:15 PM

How were the terrorist, whoever they are, able to plant and set off some 10 different bombs simultaneously?

I hope this is not AQ as it shows a capability not evident lately.

Posted by: tallan at March 11, 2004 05:17 PM

linden, that information has already been officially denied.

Posted by: Golan at March 11, 2004 05:29 PM

Couple of things: Earlier comments alluded to possible collusion between ETA and a-Q. I hope this is not the case, but it could be that Spain's contribution to the U.S. coalition in Iraq put them in the "common enemy" category of these two groups. It certainly seems within the realm of possibility that ETA could have provided logistical and intelligence support even if al-Qaeda was ultimately responsible for the attacks. Michael (and others) make a good point that this attack seems beyond what ETA has been guilty of in the past.

Second point: What will be the political fallout from Spain pressuring the U.N. into issuing what may turn out to be a false condemnation of ETA in the immediate aftermath? (via Reuters): "The U.N. Security Council on Thursday condemned the Basque separatist group ETA as the perpetrators of the deadly bombings in Spain, although members had no way of determining the veracity of the charge."
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is the sort of thing that happens when a country is overeager to make points in the court of public opinion before all the facts are in.

Posted by: crockmeister at March 11, 2004 05:41 PM

Crockmeister,if you look at Bin Laden's own writing, you will see that Spain has been in his crosshairs for many years, ong before it joined the US alliance. Remember, Spain threw the Moslems out. Is is still their land to an ideologue like Bin Laden, not that he by himself is that important. Al Qaeda is junk of a thousand names for Islamic fascism. And, if you do your research, you will see they have made common cause with the ETA for years--the IRA also.

Posted by: Galileo at March 11, 2004 07:54 PM

The slaughter of innocents which occured today should only bring the strongest condemnation from all civilized individuals.

Trying to assigngn responsibility (credit) to this barbartity only gives aid and credit to the perpitrators.

Their names and their causes should remain silient so some day they may be.

Posted by: Matthew King at March 11, 2004 09:38 PM

How were the terrorist, whoever they are, able to plant and set off some 10 different bombs simultaneously?

Its called synchronizing your watches. Setting off bombs simultaneously is not at all difficult to do. Seeing this as evidence of sophistication on the part of the killers is, well, naive.

The scary thing is that they were able to plant 10 bombs. I predict this will do bad things to the EU's open borders policy. If you want to see genuine civil rights violations in the name of security, the EU will be the place to go soon. The Europeans have always had the upper hand over the US when it comes violating each other's rights.

Posted by: R C Dean at March 12, 2004 04:40 AM

As word of the bombings spread, many people frantically called family and friends on cell phones.

"On many bodies, we could hear the person's mobile phones ringing as we carted them away," said Beatriz Martin, a doctor who tended to victims at El Pozo.

---
Mentally hear this sound when you vote Kerry in Novemeber....

Posted by: Chilling at March 12, 2004 05:39 AM

My sincere condolences to all Madrilenos and the people of Spain who had to suffer through this. Reading the details in the papers this morning was awful, and brought back too many memories. As a New Yorker, I know all too well the knot deep in the stomach, the sense of grief, the rising feeling of outrage upon reflection....it's really something one can never forget or forgive. It's my hope that we will all get together to defeat this terrible scourge and threat to our common civilization.

Posted by: Daniel Calto at March 12, 2004 06:18 AM

If this were a cheap mystery novel, the coincidental presence of a van with detonators and Arabic language tapes, and a mysterious unverified phone call from Al Qaeda claiming responsibility would sound like a frame-up to me.

The clues just seem almost to be deliberately placed to misdirect. Maybe I'm wrong...

Posted by: Barry at March 12, 2004 07:21 AM

Those of you who are using what happened in Spain for political purposes (i.e. vote for Bush) have no soul. As a spanish citizen, and american resident, all I have to tell you is, SHAME ON YOU!

Posted by: masita at March 12, 2004 07:35 AM

Political purposes or to prevent future attacks? It is all point of view. If it is the latter, do they still face your faux outrage?

Posted by: Ex at March 12, 2004 08:49 AM

The Basque ETA tried to blow one of Madrid's sky scrappers for an estimated death toll in the same order of 9/11.

So much for your theory that ETA would not have been so blood thirsty

Posted by: JFM at March 12, 2004 10:25 AM

Those of you who are using what happened in Spain for political purposes (i.e. vote for Bush) have no soul. As a spanish citizen, and american resident, all I have to tell you is, SHAME ON YOU!

It is YOU who have no soul, as you don't even give the dead one single day of rest before you use them attack Aznar for siding with Bush and "provoking" the wrath of Al-Qaeda. Have you no shame???

Posted by: David at March 12, 2004 12:16 PM

Some of the comments being made here are despicable.

Kay:
"Wonder if Sen. Kerry still thinks the threat of terrorism is exaggerated?"
Chilling:
"Mentally hear this sound when you vote Kerry in Novemeber...."

What is wrong with you people? All you can think of is to take swipes at Sen. Kerry, who quite obviously had absolutely nothing to do with this. Can't you even wait to determine who is responsible for this atrocity? If it is ETA, then what do you think, they're going to start attacking the US? And if it does turn out to be AQ, so what? Do you think Kerry provided logistical support or something? Get a freaking grip and quit trying to use this tragedy to further your partisan political agenda.

Posted by: Smokey at March 12, 2004 01:12 PM

Jesus Christ, Michael...

The some odd two-hundred killed figure I had heard but I had no idea over 1200 people were injured! That's freaking huge. Why don't we hear about stuff like that more often, by the way, about how many are injured in stuff like this and not just killed? I mean, if you get both your legs blown off at least you still live but it's kind of a slap in the face when it goes completely ignored by the media.

I mean no disrespect to the thousands of men and women who died on 9/11, but I wonder just how many more thousands were seriously injured that we never got to hear about. Seems a little messed up to me.

I'd love to see some kind of prime-time special to remind people of this sort of thing. If you were there, in one of those towers I mean, and lived through it having to watch most everyone else you know die right in front of your eyes...can you just imagine the post-traumatic-stress of that?! It's that sort of human element that we don't see nearly enough of, if you ask me. And each and everyone of us should: Otherwise it just gets ignored.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 12, 2004 01:34 PM

http://www.123prescriptionpills.com

Posted by: Phentermine at March 12, 2004 06:58 PM

How were the terrorist, whoever they are, able to plant and set off some 10 different bombs simultaneously?
**************************************************
Its called synchronizing your watches. Setting off bombs simultaneously is not at all difficult to do. Seeing this as evidence of sophistication on the part of the killers is, well, naive.

The scary thing is that they were able to plant 10 bombs. I predict this will do bad things to the EU's open borders policy. If you want to see genuine civil rights violations in the name of security, the EU will be the place to go soon. The Europeans have always had the upper hand over the US when it comes violating each other's rights
**************************************************

Synchronized watches, sychronised timers. Have the trigger devices be cellphones all set to the same number and call that number. Lots of ways.

Posted by: Dan Kauffman at March 12, 2004 07:16 PM

If the Spanish crowds start chanting El Cid! It might stirr things up?

Posted by: Dan Kauffman at March 12, 2004 07:19 PM

What the hell's up with all this "phentermine" bullshit?

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 12, 2004 07:32 PM

Unfortunately we may tempt to feel glad or rather relieved, not that it happened to Spain, but glad that someone else can sense the frustration and anger we feel, that is a mistake. People will follow us if we win the War. In other words they will follow a winner and leader. What Al Queda and other terrorists are trying to do is break resolve. Now people may feel that this can't happen when in fact it is what usually does. An example of this is organized crime. They terrorize and peace is “bought” and the thugs live on. That is what appeasement is all about. I used to be an appeaser, I’m not now, and that is why I am considered a neo-conservative. That is what being “mugged by reality” is all about, “mugged” is probably too mild of word.

I have through personal sad experience and something I find rather discouraging found that I am rarer than I should be. How many people that shared your liberal views, are as prepared as you to cast aside their feelings on Abortion, Gay Marriage, etc., to give way to the most serious issue of the day, the War on Terror? How many people that you know pay lip service and say that they support “the troops”, say “I support the War on Terror” and then say, “Because of Bush’s stand on Gay Marriage etc. I can no longer support him!” How many do you know that still have such priority problems? Don’t people understand what can wait for another day and what can’t? How many have said, “Hey, you know once in office Kerry is going to be just as good on this, right?” And continue in such dangerous wishful thinking? How many rhetorical statements after rhetorical statements, and setting up of “straw men”, arguments, what ifs, and whatever’s, to justify such thinking? I have an extensive family that represents a large set of Democrats. In my family I am somewhat an anomaly and I am sick!

As far as “mugged by reality”? I have also sadly learned that many people respond differently to such muggings, in other ways as well. To some they have become “shell shocked”, and incapable of facing up to the realities of the circumstances, period. They put their head in the sand and choose to avoid even the very subject. Others truly have become focused on extreme counter-productive wrong thinking, very much akin to root-causes type psycho-analysis of criminals, this rarely leads to justice, and even more rarely to solutions. However, it does often lead to blaming the victim by implication. Others want to just continue to whistle the day away like the world didn’t change at all. Others in denial want to believe certain half-measures will be enough. I could go on and on.

Well Spain get ready for the blame came. President Aznar or your successor, get ready to be blamed for bringing this on unnecessarily because of your alliance with the liar of all liars George W. Bush and the United States. Get ready for the hand wringing and passing of blame on to those who would instinctively do the most to counter such things from happening to begin with. Get ready for these people to undermine you at home and in foreign lands in a high stakes game of political jujitsu. Get ready for the appeasers to accuse you of warmongering. Get ready be am-“Bushed”.

Posted by: Samuel at March 12, 2004 07:59 PM

Samuel...

I got alot of respect for you, bro, and on the War on Terror we see eye to eye. But does being "mugged by reality" really necessarily mean one has to denounce the whole of liberalism in its entirety? I've never understood this.

Scoop Jackson was a liberal. A pretty solid one, in fact. Being as big a hawk and interventionist as he was didn't make him any less of a liberal, Samuel. It's the same exact liberal worldview, the same exact driving force, in fact: A worldview in which he felt compelled to try and heal the earth on which he lived.

He believed in fighting back poverty, hunger, pollution, disease, and tyranny BECAUSE he was a liberal. There's no contradiction in that, whatsoever!

The way I look at it, saying that you used to be an appeaser and that you're not now in and of itself does not make you a neo-conservative. The Paul Bermans, Tom Friedmans, and Christopher Hitchenses of the world kinda prove my point. The way I look at it, Samuel, neo-conservatives are basically like normal cruel-and-callous-conservatives with one exception: They're hawkishly big-hearted liberals on defense.

I'm only 21 years old and can't honestly say that I've been "mugged by reality" lately (though I have actually been mugged twice). Maybe I just came into this world pre-mugged, somehow. Or maybe I was just "mugged by" history when I read it and figured human rights were cool and that tyranny was a thing worth fighting, even at a young age. I dunno. Point is, you don't have to be a neocon to realize that Churchill had the right idea in opposing Nazi fasicism (even Bush seemed to figure the moral of that one out). It doesn't have to mean you can't support gay rights and making sure everyone in America has health insurance.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 12, 2004 09:34 PM

PS...

Yep, threw in that "cruel and callous" line just to push your buttons. Same old "prejudiced" me.

But seriously though, I know I'm right on this and not prejudiced in describing conservatives one bit. You'd probably say that conservatives are just as big-hearted and compassionate as liberals, right? That the only difference is in their approach to solving the problems?

But when's the last time you heard a Republican Presidential Candidate offering up a plan to somehow cover the 44 million Americans without health insurance? Must have gotten buried under all that talk of a "flat tax", huh? Priorities speak for themselves.

The more moderate DLCers (like myself) talk about their "conservative means to liberal ends" for a reason. It's because there is such a thing as "liberal ends" to begin with and it's not what conservatives are after.

Somebody's gotta represent the half of the country that could care less about social problems when the price of SeaDoos keep going up. That somebody is the Republican Party, my friend.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 12, 2004 09:54 PM

Grant,

The thing you overlook is that neo-conservatives are by default Republicans because the Democrats won't have us. Richard Perle is still a Democrat. The "Prince of Darkness" label on him comes from Democrats not Republicans. James Woosley is a Democrat and the Democrats won't have him either. How serious was Henry Jackson treated by Democrats, where did his candidacy go?

That is the point Grant. Liberals put issues that are puny by comparison as if they were equal or even greater and don't tell me they don't. While Henry Jackson was seriously being sidelined by the liberals, they were also tarring Reagan in the same style that LBJ tarred Goldwater. Yep WWIII, that's what Reagan was going to give us. Remember Grant, I was alive and voted in 1980. I’ve seen the lack of seriousness long enough. It is not worth the risk.

Call me a cynic, but Gay Marriage, or a woman’s Right to Abortion, is not as serious as the War on Terror. Grant, even you hold social issues at too high of level by comparison, so what does that say of mainstream liberals? Forget it! I’m somewhere to the right of Joe Lieberman for heavens sake. I live in the suburbs. A moderate Republican is more of a fit for me. I predict by the time my children reach my age a majority of Jews will be with me.

The Republican Party is not the party of Pat Buchanan. It has enough liberal space for me. Arnold Swartznegger, Dennis Miller, hell Dennis Miller understands the difference, the War on Terror trumps all by a mile. The issues you argue for seem so marginal under the circumstances. Grant, I understand, but you are in a different mindset. You have shown much more doubt towards what seems to me a no-brainer in re-electing George Bush. Watching my family (which reflects the mainstream left) shows me one thing. Liberals by default are more apt to blame America first, put nanny issues ahead of more serious ones, and care about character issues only when carried by the opposition. Yea I’m for Gay’s being together happy, women having their rights, but so are a majority of Republicans, we are arguing marginal degrees. And the degree of error on the left is way more fatal and has been for more than a generation.

I’m also still pissed off, I’ll admit it. There are a lot of Holocaust family member victims crying from the grave for justice, and not letting things like Iraq happen. I look up to see what? A bunch of lying sons of bitches calling my President a liar and trying to undermine him here and overseas for following the same intelligence and using the exact same arguments they used themselves. Grant a party that proves only willing to do what is right when they are in power at this time is unworthy of such responsibility.

I’ve said this before, neo-cons will go where justice is done, and most are Republicans that should say something. When justice is more found for all of mankind in principle and action with the Democrats I will be there. The sad thing is that had I been more proper in my priorities I would have left earlier and voted for Reagan. I see no advantage doing this as a Democrat. I have no desire for my children being as politically prejudiced as I was. They have parents of mixed political faith now, and that is a good thing. Let them be what they want. I am a liberal enough for that.

Posted by: Samuel at March 13, 2004 12:24 AM

Grant,

The some odd two-hundred killed figure I had heard but I had no idea over 1200 people were injured! That's freaking huge. Why don't we hear about stuff like that more often, by the way, about how many are injured in stuff like this and not just killed?

I was going to post on this but you beat me to it. In a way this atrocity in Madrid is worse than 9/11 in which most victims were killed and relatively few suffered injuries. On a per capita basis, the total casualties of 3/11 far exceed those of 9/11. The scale of this is far greater than the death toll alone indicates. This is an enormous tragedy for Spain.

Posted by: HA at March 13, 2004 04:37 AM

Grant,

But does being "mugged by reality" really necessarily mean one has to denounce the whole of liberalism in its entirety? I've never understood this.

Don't confuse advocating government programs with liberalism. The simple fact is that most government programs either exacerbate rather than mitigate the problems they are intended to address, or else they cause new problems that nobody ever anticipated.

It was reasonable 40-50 years ago to advocate government solutions to problems because we didn't know any better. At least most didn't. We should know better today but we don't. People still confuse liberalism with a big government approach to problem solving. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Real liberals like Reagan and Thatcher will recognize that government programs mostly fail and will look at alternative means to solving problems. Anti-liberal statists/socialists like the Democrats don't admit this because the bureacracies established to administer the failed programs live on long after their usefulness has been disproven and they have become the base of power for the Democrats.

These bureacracies administer 40% of our GDP - $4,000,000,000,000 - much of which gets directed towards propoganda in support of expanding government. I have no doubt that a shocking amount of federal money is being spent to promote nationalized health care which would push the percent of GDP chewed up by government to well over 50% of GDP. When was the last time you heard NPR oppose a government program? And NPR is just the tip of the iceberg. Every government agency commissions studies that invariably advocate more government programs and pissing more money away on failed programs. When was the last time a Political Science department at a public university advocated a reduction in government programs or regulation? Our universities have morphed into Marxist indoctrination camps. All these gender, race and ethnic studies programs are being setup to churn out good Marxists to attend all the ANSWER "peace" and free-Mumia "protests."

I'll give you an example. The education bureacracy is always crying about the lack of funds for education. The Philadelphia Inquirer recently published funding and performance statistics for school districts in the Philly region. I live in Cherry Hill NJ which is one of the higher performing districts which spends roughly $9,000 per student per year. Camden NJ which is in the same county as Cherry Hill has one of the worse performing districts and their spending is roughly $13,000 per year per student.

What do the children of Camden have to show for the $4,000 per year that is being coercively seized from the citizens of Cherry Hill and being turned over to bureaucrats in Camden? Nothing. But the bureaucrats have a lot to show for it. And the Democrats have an unshakeable power base. The whole process is thoroughly corrupt. This corruption is the root cause of today's partisan bitterness. It is dividing our nation and threatening our freedom. The only solution is to massively cut back the size of government.

You're a poly-sci major. Do you guys discuss Hayek in your program? He is one of the most influential economic/political theoreticians of the 20th century and was an inspiration for both Reagan and Thatcher. Yet most universities dismiss him as a quack if they teach him at all.

If universities spent as much time teaching Hayek as they do Marx, the world would be a much better place. Hayek is a real liberal unlike the Marxist inspired watered down socialists of the Democratic party.

If you are a real liberal, you owe it to youself to read Hayek's "The Constitution of Liberty."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226320847/ref%3Dnosim/thefriedrhayeksc/002-1233735-6766436

Here's a link to some quotes on the significance of Hayek:

http://www.hayekcenter.org/friedrichhayek/qs-euro.html

Posted by: HA at March 13, 2004 05:46 AM

I wonder if suicide bomb vests are as fashionable today as they were a year and a half ago:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4274

I suppose it was all fun and games as long as the killers were just killing Americans and Jews. If there is any justice in this world, these two bitches would have been among the victims of the Madrid massacre.

Posted by: HA at March 13, 2004 06:18 AM

HA: In a way this atrocity in Madrid is worse than 9/11 in which most victims were killed and relatively few suffered injuries. On a per capita basis, the total casualties of 3/11 far exceed those of 9/11.

Are you serious? Assuming approximately 200 dead and 1200 wounded, how is that better -- i.e., less "worse" -- than nearly 3000 dead? I find your "per capita basis" remark odd; are you referring to the population of New York or Madrid (or something else)?

Posted by: Michael Hall at March 13, 2004 06:21 AM

HA,

Thanks for addressing some of the liberal "Big Government" issues the Grant tends to, I'll add not very neo-liberal if you ask me.

Grant,

As you know I run a business, if you want see to see more health care coverage then first, tort reform. Secondly keep the government out! Outrageous lawsuits do more to drive up the costs of health care.

LBJ with the government sought to help the poor with the "War on Poverty" and proceeded to hurt the poor and in reality created a situation far worse. Well welfare reform needs to be followed by tort reform. But of course like with education, the liberals will drown the very thing they are trying to relieve of thirst, all the time thinking even more water is the fix. Then they will cry about jobs and be clueless of how thy are killing the market through their meddlesome initiatives.

Grant, business provides healthcare not the government. The government only takes and wastes. My insurance went up 40% in 1 year! Please government don't try to fix it, by attacking "Health Care" like LBJ did Poverty, do it like Clinton did Welfare, get out of the way!

Get lawyers paws out of bleeding the system through lottery type lawsuits. I'm familiar with how Senator Edwards made his money. The lawsuits he won has science against his side of arguments, the system suffers because of shit like this.

Grant, Employees make the health coverage they receive one of the things they judge employers by. Competition dictates this. Many of my employees would leave if they did not have the coverage. Again hearing politicians talk about the uninsured doesn't impress me.

Clinton and Gore talked about a lot of things, it was mostly Republican initiatives he enacted. They should have listened to the Republicans on tort reform as well. Bush proceeds to take Democratic steps in Education and Medicare and gets bitch-slapped by the left, ingenious! ( Of course standards more than money was the most important step we took, as usual the part Democrats hate ) Bush should learn from Nixon, the left is never grateful for doing such things.

Posted by: Samuel at March 13, 2004 07:33 AM

Michael Hall,

I find your "per capita basis" remark odd; are you referring to the population of New York or Madrid (or something else)?

Spain suffered around 1650 total casualties with 1/7th the population of the US. That would be equivalent to approximately 1400 dead and 10,000 injured. Yes, the death toll from 9/11 was higher, but the total casualty figure was less. This atrocity will directly affect proportionally many more Spanish families. Many of those casualties will be maimed or disfigured and will suffer for the rest of their lives. In that one respect, 3/11 was worse than 9/11.

Posted by: HA at March 13, 2004 08:56 AM

"Yes, the death toll from 9/11 was higher, but the total casualty figure was less. This atrocity will directly affect proportionally many more Spanish families."

That was probably the whole point of this attack, spread the damage as widely as possible. Bombs designed to maim instead of kill their victims.

Posted by: sam at March 13, 2004 09:14 AM

HA...

To be honest with you, I'm more into American Politics and not so much the theory end of it (though I know maybe more than a little). As far as I know, Hayek does get a fair deal of attention but, yes, not nearly as much as Marx. There are entire classes devoted to Marx and Nietzsche. Locke gets his own class as well, though, in terms of the Enlightenment.

And last but not least, I'll add that Strauss gets a HELL of alot of attention. Probably deserves it, though, what with he being the philosophical godfather of neoconservativism and the man who gave us Paul Wolfowitz and Allan Bloom. Strauss is all the rage. Chicago University is where alot of poli-sci undergrads around here want to go, so, the Straussian push makes sense. The professors hate his guts and usually make no bones about it, though they're fair in letting us make up our own minds and don't really try to indoctrinate a whole lot. Maybe a few do, but everyone knows who they are and no one takes their classes so they'll be gone soon enough.

If you're looking to indoctrination though, screw Marx. Nietzsche, and all those that followed in his footsteps, are where it's at: It's all about "power relationships" in academia. If you've never read Allan Bloom's "Closing of the American Mind", I suggest you immediately take it up. His talk of the "German influence" is dead on the money.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 13, 2004 09:23 AM

Grant says:

Don't confuse advocating government programs with liberalism.

That is PRECISELY what it should be associated with, not to mention the rest of it's pie-in-the-sky delusions and platitute-based ideology.

Grant also says:

The simple fact is that most government programs either exacerbate rather than mitigate the problems they are intended to address, or else they cause new problems that nobody ever anticipated.

BINGO!

Posted by: David at March 13, 2004 11:46 AM

Grant, your response to HA is spot on, good job.

Posted by: Samuel at March 13, 2004 12:18 PM

Grant,

If you've never read Allan Bloom's "Closing of the American Mind", I suggest you immediately take it up.

I'll take you up on that. I've had that book on my shelf for years. My Dad gave it to me many moons ago and I classified it under "Books the Old Man Gave Me That I'll Never Read Because I Have a Life."

Posted by: HA at March 13, 2004 02:21 PM

Grant, you clearly have no real understanding of the neoconservatives. Neo means new, so neoconservatives means new conservatives. Now, of course if we are new conservatives, what were we before?

Liberals and leftists. I was out on the far left in the 1970s. Conservatives would never have attracted me with the argument that welfare was theft. The neocons attracted me with the argument that welfare was not helping the people it was designed to help; in fact it was hurting them by trapping them in a cycle of poverty.

You argue for socialized medicine. I've lived under it, in England, and let me tell you it sucks. I waited 8 hours to see a doctor for a total of 5 minutes for a blood clot in my leg. That is the problem with making something "free"; you find that you have to ration it some other way after you've eliminated ability to pay.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 13, 2004 02:30 PM

Pat,

as one neocon to another, that was well put.

Posted by: Pat at March 13, 2004 06:29 PM

David, I mean

Posted by: David at March 13, 2004 06:30 PM

Thanks, David. It's kind of amusing to me that our little movement is considered to be the tail wagging the elephant. We don't have any national radio shows with the arguable exception of Medved, our top guy in the administration is an undersecretary, and our supposed policy journal The Weekly Standard regularly wanders off into liberal land.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 13, 2004 07:23 PM

The horrific train explosions in Madrid on 3/11 killed nearly 200 people and wounded over a thousand more. Some fingers are pointing at the Basque separatist group, ETA, and some at Al-Qaeda. Spanish authorites have detained three Moroccans and two Indians connected with the bombings; they have also received a videotaped message showing a man declaring, in Arabic, that the Madrid tragedy is a response to Spain's "collaboration with the criminals Bush and his allies."

I have never been to Spain and I had always wanted to visit it. But there are certain Spanish traditions that continue to appall me, especially those that involve the abuse of animals such as bullfighting. As a vegan and an animal rights activist, I find it very perplexing as to how the Spaniards - supposedly a civilized and progressive people - consider bullfighting as a "sport" or a "fight" when in fact the bull's fate is already sealed from the beginning. I heard that blood fiestas are still held annually all over the country, and that cattle animals remain as the most popular victims of these barbaric practices. But other animals are also used such as chickens, geese, duck, pigeons, squirrels, pigs, donkeys and goats; they are either tortured, abused, buried alive, mutilated, drowned, beaten, slaughtered or dropped from a church tower.

I propose, to put a permanent end to the unjust and merciless abuse and slaughter of animals, to replace the animals with unrepentant and merciless terrorists. Enough of unkindness and cruelty towards innocent creatures. If Spanish fury is going to be unleashed, let it be unkind and cruel towards the terrorists. Please, just because I'm a vegan - that doesn't mean I cannot be vindictive. There's always room for hatred towards hateful ideologies.

www.rafaelrobertdelfin.com

Posted by: Rafael Robert Delfin at March 13, 2004 07:29 PM

FOR THE RECORD:

DAVID...
I think you're confusing me with someone else. All of that "Grant says" stuff wasn't me.

HA...I'm sincerely hoping you weren't insinuating that because I've read Bloom's book I have no life! I'm a bit of a nerd, but I party with the best of them. I try and strike a balance between political science and kegstands: It's the more responsible adult thing to do. ;)

PAT CURLEY...
I never advocated "socialized medicine"! An American single-payer system would be a nightmare. When I describe myself as being one of the more moderate "DLC-style" Democrats, take me at my word. I was simply stating that we should all have health insurance, that's all. There are a million different ways to approach reaching universal coverage without socializing a damn thing: Just ask Totten. Y'all are pretty big on vouchers, right? Why not just apply the concept to health coverage? Require that everyone have health insurance and give vouchers to those who can't afford it. You'd have to work the kinks out of something like that, but it would work pretty well by and in and large. Oh, and I have a pretty thorough understanding of Neo-Conservatism thank you very much. I know the history. I know the philosophers. I know the traditions. And I know the popular leaders, today. I worship at the altar of Scoop Jackson, my friend. I've read a thing or two about these people, trust me. Hell, due to some of the research I've done, I've even got a contact or two at the American Enterprise Institute. Don't be so quick to judge a book by its cover, buddy. Oh, and there was something else. Yeah, I read the Weekly Standard pretty regularly so let me ask you: When in the hell was the last time they ventured off into "liberal land"?! They're a tad more moderate than the National Review (thank God), if that's what you mean. But "liberal"?! Give me a break. Kristol can come off reading like a liberal hawk alot, but hey, more power to him. Otherwise, I can't think of the last time someone over there staked out a liberal position on anything.

AND TO EVERYONE: I'd suggest everyone take to reading alot more material than just what fits them best ideologicially. I'm a New Republic liberal, plain and simple. But I also like to challenge myself with sensible views further to the Left (The American Prospect) and to the Right (The Weekly Standard and National Review). Sometimes you'll read something that'll make you look at an issue a whole different way. Sometimes you'll realize what you thought before was wrong. So don't just listen to Hannity and Rush or NPR and NOW w/ Bill Moyers. Open yourselves up a little more and you'll be a better person for it.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 13, 2004 11:52 PM

PS...

Wow. I just described the National Review as being "sensible". That might have been a mistake.

They might better fall under the "looney wingnuts" heading along with The Nation. I dunno. Any site that pushes Ann Coulter books has to come under scrutiny with me.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 13, 2004 11:56 PM

Grant,

HA...I'm sincerely hoping you weren't insinuating that because I've read Bloom's book I have no life!

Nah. What I was going for is that the Old Man isn't as crazy as I thought he was. Maybe - just maybe - he knew something I didn't.

Posted by: HA at March 14, 2004 03:37 AM

David,

That is PRECISELY what it should be associated with

Don't confuse liberalism with socialism. The Democrats are socialists, not liberals. The Democrats can no longer make a credible claim that government "solutions" work. I now view every Democratic proposal to expand government as a naked power grab and nothing more.

The true liberals are the inaccurately named neocons who have mostly fled the Democratic party and joined the Republicans. This is as it should be. Liberalism has its natural home in the party of Lincoln, TR and Reagan. And the Democrats are reverting to their true nature as reactionary statists. Under Clinton, at least there was some balance between the socialist wing and the DLC wing. In this election cycle the DLC wing has been completely marginalized. If Kerry wins, the DLC wing will be dead for good.

Posted by: HA at March 14, 2004 04:00 AM

OT

She stands accused of being a traitor. She passionately claims she is a patriot. For years she has been a Democratic congressional staffer and journalist for various media outlets. And nobody ever questioned her actions until now. Why not? Can Democrats and leftists spot treason anymore? Or do they in fact condone it?

Is Susan Lindauer a traitor or a patriot? How many others are out there among the Democratic elite, media elite, academic elite and Hollywood elite that believe in exactly the same things that Lindauer believes in but may not have taken that one extra step of accepting get paid by Saddam's regime?

What is the difference between Lindauer and those who hold identical beliefs? What is the difference between a Klansman who slips the noose around his victim's neck and the one who cheers from mob?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040312/ap_on_re_us/iraq_spy_case_20

Posted by: HA at March 14, 2004 04:20 AM

Grant, fair response to my points. What set me off was this quote from an earlier post:

"The way I look at it, Samuel, neo-conservatives are basically like normal cruel-and-callous-conservatives with one exception: They're hawkishly big-hearted liberals on defense."

Now you can make the argument that traditional conservatives and paleo-conservatives are "cruel and callous". Not saying I'll buy it, but at least the case can be made. But neocons? I'm sorry, that's a fundamental misunderstanding of where the neocons come from.

And yes, the Weekly Standard often wanders into liberal land as in their support for CFR and its major proponent, John McCain. That was classic "goo-goo, pu-pu" (good government, public policy) liberalism.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 14, 2004 06:38 AM

Pat,
I think Grant was being sarcastic (mostly) when he made the "cruel-and-callous-conservatives" remark.

By the way, what are you going to do with your blog when the elections over? I know that Kerry will still be around, but he probably wont be standing for President again.

Posted by: sam at March 14, 2004 06:58 AM

Please, just because I'm a vegan - that doesn't mean I cannot be vindictive.

Don't flatter yourself. Hitler was a vegan.

Posted by: David at March 14, 2004 10:56 AM

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Posted by: sam at March 14, 2004 11:50 AM

I dunno if any of you guys have caught this yet, but the Socialists just won Parliament in Spain in a pretty huge upset. These are the folks, ladies and gentlemen, who had vowed to pull out the 1600 Spanish soldiers in Iraq if they won.

So, this is how Spain responds to a terrorist attack on their own soil. By handing over their government to a Party who wants to stop standing up to the very same terrorists in other countries.

From CNN.com:
"Turnout was high at 76 percent with voters seeming to express anger with the government, accusing it of provoking the Madrid attacks by supporting the US-led war in Iraq."

We attack al-Qaeda, al-Qaeda attacks Spain, Spain blames us, al-Qaeda wins. Western Europeans baffle me, they really do: They get sucker-punched and blame themselves for it.

I'm at a loss for words other than to say I think I just moved a bit even further into the NeoCon camp, at least on defense. This appeasing reaction is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 14, 2004 06:05 PM

Grant,

I think I just moved a bit even further into the NeoCon camp, at least on defense.

That's funny. All the spam on Michael's site is pushing me into the socialist camp.

Here's my socialist chant:

1-2-3-4 We Don't Want Your Stinking Spam!

I know it doesn't rhyme, but I'm a rookie.

BTW, the Spanish election results are a Really Bad Thing.

Posted by: HA at March 14, 2004 06:40 PM

Whoever said terrorism doesn't pay? A sorry platitude if I ever heard one. This is a dark time for the Euro-dhimmis. Al-Qaida, with it's bombs, was able to elect a friendly government with a foreign policy more to it's liking. The Spaniards haven't had the stomach for a good fight since they lost their empire. With the limp-wristed Spaniards so easily cowed, expect to see more elections and foreign policy by bomb in the near future thanks to the enemy-within Left.

Any wagers? My money is on England next, and two to one odds on Poland.

Posted by: David at March 14, 2004 09:00 PM

According to DEBKA, Italy's next:

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=804

Posted by: Salamantis at March 14, 2004 09:20 PM

Hi Sam, hoping like the Dickens that the last post to the Kerryhaters blog comes on November 3rd, and it's a BIG thank you to my fellow Americans for helping to end the blog. I do have another blog for everyday stuff that's been suffering lack of attention lately.

Posted by: Pat Curley at March 15, 2004 08:36 AM

Interesting excerpt from Josh Marshall's blog today. Not sure if I agree:
Two intersting points...One of them ...is just how little Spanish or other Western intelligence services seem to have known about this. There was no chatter, no hints. The entire operation seems to have slipped through entirely unnoticed by anyone. That suggests the possibility that we're really flying blind on the actual terrorist threat

Another point touches on the assumptions that many seem to bring to this whole event...America and Europe never saw eye-to-eye on how to take down the network of terror cells and associated Islamist terror groups we know as al Qaida. But the disagreements have been greatly overstated. The heart of the matter, the rub, has always been about whether the 'war on terror' in any way included or was in any respect advanced by overthrowing the government of Iraq.

(To frame the matter ungenerously but with real precision, the question came down to whether you fight back against the terrorists by striking back at the terrorists or at someone else.)

Posted by: Markus Rose at March 15, 2004 09:31 AM

Markus,

Was Saddam a terrorist in your view?

Posted by: HA at March 15, 2004 09:54 AM

HA -- yeah he was. Just in all likelihood not an Al-Queda or an Islmamist one. If Clinton had been President when 9/11 occured, and then, after taking out the Taliban, he shifted his major focus to, say, the need to bring democracy to Liberia or Haiti or Zimbabwe or Turkey...wouldn't you have been pissed?

The question is not why was Saadam taken out, the question is why was Saadam at the top of the plate? The only justifiable answer would be that nothing else was more important, or that anything else that WAS in fact more or equally important, such as making sure the Madrid bombers were caught before they had a chance to blow themselves up last week...was not in any way made more difficult to achieve as a result of our focus on Iraq.

We'll be learning a lot more about these terrorists in the coming weeks, including were they have been spending their time since 9/11 and who has been helping them. I'd be surprised if in either case the answer is one of the members of the official axis of evil.

Posted by: Markus Rose at March 15, 2004 02:41 PM

Markus,

Liberia or Haiti or Zimbabwe or Turkey

How many Americans have been killed by the leaders of those countries? Are any of those countries in violation of a surrender agreement with the United States? Have any of those countries tried to assassinate an American president? Have any of those countries spent 12 years trying to shoot down American jets?

How many Americans have been killed by Saddam Hussein? How many terrorists who have killed Americans have been supported by Saddam Hussein? Do the names Abu Abbas, Abu Nidal and Abdul Rahman Yasin mean anything to you?

The real question isn't why Saddam was a high priority. The real question is why Saddam was such a low priority for you.

The next greatest threat after Saddam is Iran. We now have troops on the eastern and western borders of that country which clearly has an active nuclear program. Do you see dealing with Iran as a priority?

Posted by: HA at March 15, 2004 07:11 PM

Saddam funded Islamic terrorism in Israel and had a WMD program, but he wouldn't have hurt the U.S. Okay, he had liassons with al Qaeda, but there is no way he could have helped them hurt us. The U.N. had him over a barrel. We need to get Kerry in office. He understands how a war can be ameliorated to a more acceptable "policing action." It's just a few oddballs who want to kill us. It's not war. I'm voting my pocketbook next November.

Posted by: Jim at March 15, 2004 07:28 PM

Markus,

Just in all likelihood not an Al-Queda or an Islmamist one.

One more thing. Saddam had extensive ties to Al Qaeda:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/378fmxyz.asp

Now that you have been informed of the facts, I trust you will no longer repeat the lie that Saddam had no ties to Al Qaeda.

Posted by: HA at March 15, 2004 07:50 PM

I would like to say that despite some data pointing towards islamic terrorism, the main suspect is still ETA. The explosive used is the one they usually employ (Titadine, a TNT type explosive that they frequently steal in France). And just two months ago, a similar atack by ETA was thwarted: two terrorists were detained aboard trains enroute to Madrid with backpacks full of explosives.

This has been a really bad bad day here in Spain

Posted by: Phentermine at March 16, 2004 12:22 PM

Unfortunately, all they will do is harden the resolve of our allies just as the Bali bombing affirmed Australia's solidarity with the coalition. Maybe a few more of the Spaniards will join the government in supporting our cause against Islaomfascism? One can only hope... The Spanish media is so vehemently opposed to the war on terror, it will certainly have to take a second look at its' position. Alas, as others have noted, they will probably just blame Bush for agitating the terrorists.

Posted by: Phentermine at March 16, 2004 12:23 PM

Now that's interesting. And I agree, Michael, ETA terroism has always been one bomb or assassination at a time.

Verrry interesting. I think the gloves are really going to come off now

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