March 11, 2004

Terror in Madrid

At least 180 people were killed in Madrid by ten or more bombs in commuter train stations. The Spanish government seems certain it was the Basque ETA, not Al Qaeda.

This is huge, by far the worst terror attack in Spain ever.

A few years ago two separate bombs exploded in Madrid the day after I left the city by train to Seville. I remember airport-style security checks in the train stations, and I also remember not worrying much about it. The ETA was far more like the IRA than Al Qaeda; small occasional bombs that seemed more like attention-getting devices that weapons of mass murder.

But it looks like 9/11 raised the stakes. Perhaps Al Qaeda made the ETA feel like pikers. To get the kind of attention they wanted they had to make themselves full-bore enemies of civilization like their Middle Eastern counterparts.

Bastards. They will never get their own state this way. But I can see why they might think it would work. Europe loves the Palestinians.

I, for one, wouldn't be a bit surprised if it was Palestinians or their friends who committed this act. It is right up their alley, and Europeans better think long and hard about where they stand.


UPDATE: When I wrote "Palestinians or their friends" it was a sloppy way of saying "Middle Eastern terrorists." I posted this first thing in the morning before I was fully awake.

SECOND UPDATE: CNN reports:

Spanish interior minister says new line of Madrid blast investigation opened after police find van with detonators and Arabic-language tapes. Details soon.
Someone in my comments section accused me of being an "Internet conspiracy theorist" for thinking Middle Eastern terrorists might have killed 200 people with bombs. Might want to rethink that. I don't know who did it, but it should be clear that it could go either way at this point. The Spanish police certainly think so.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at March 11, 2004 09:30 AM
Comments

...right up their ally...

Now, that's a droll slip!

Posted by: dipnut at March 11, 2004 09:46 AM

Michael,

I love to hear you talk like a conservative. It warms my heart.

But there is reason to doubt it was ETA, despite official claims. ETA apparently phones in a warning when they are about to attack; here there was no warning. Multiple simultaneous attacks also smacks of Al-Quaida, as does the high body count.

Could it be the Spanish government wants to kill two birds with one stone by minimizing domestic criticism of their signing on with Bush, and at the same time blame their old enemy ETA?

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 09:49 AM

Really, though, it is best not to speculate without any evidence. Too much is at stake to sit around and make unfounded assumptions about who did what or supported which act.

As doctors say, when you hear hoofbeats, look for horses, not zebras. It was most likely the ETA. And until there is evidence to support another theory, it accomplishes nothing to toss them out for consideration.

If or when evidence appears to support other theories, then we need to consider pointing fingers elsewhere.

Posted by: karrie at March 11, 2004 09:52 AM

I, for one, wouldn't be a bit surprised if it was Palestinians or their friends who committed this act.

Michael, I gave you more credit than to spew nonsense like this. Please think about it for a minute.

Could it be Al Qaeda? Possibly. The tactics would fit, and they certainly have motive: Spain is one of America's few contributing allies in the Iraq War. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to at least be AQ sympathizers. But precisely what motivation do you imagine /Palestinians/ would have for conducting a bombing in Spain?

I can't imagine one, nor can I imagine why you made the comment--unless you were trying to equate Palestinians with Al Qaeda, in which case, shame on you.

Posted by: Catsy at March 11, 2004 10:00 AM

"I, for one, wouldn't be a bit surprised if it was Palestinians or their friends who committed this act."

Otherwise it might be Europeans or their friends who committed this act.

Posted by: Stu at March 11, 2004 10:04 AM

Stu, AQ consider themselves the Pali's friends. I don't know whether or not it was ETA or AQ or friends of AQ. What matters is that terrorism is terrorism, and that Jews, Americans, Spaniards, it doesn't matter. It is plain wrong.

Posted by: FH at March 11, 2004 10:18 AM

unless you were trying to equate Palestinians with Al Qaeda, in which case, shame on you.

Palestinians and al Qaeda are both heavily financed by Saudi Wahhabists.

Palestinians and al Qaeda both seek the rule of Islamic law

Palestinians and al Qaeda deliberately target innocent people. They try to kill as many as they possibly can

From the Hamas covenant:

Article Seven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take…

Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.”

Are you saying that we should be ashamed for equating one group of mass-murdering totalitarian wannabes with another?

Posted by: mary at March 11, 2004 10:21 AM

What FH said. Also, best to get as many of the facts as possible and not make a rush to judgment, although none of the usual suspects would surprise me.

A few years ago two separate bombs exploded in Madrid the day after I left the city by train to Seville.

The station you left from Michael, was Atocha, one of the stations hit.

Posted by: Randy Paul at March 11, 2004 10:27 AM

Here you go, from the AP:

A top Basque politician, Arnold Otegi, denied the separatists were behind the blasts and blamed “Arab resistance.” Many al-Qaida-linked terrorists were captured in Spain or were believed to have operated from there.

Otegi told Radio Popular in San Sebastian that ETA always phones in warnings before it attacks. Acebes said there was no warning before Thursday’s attack.

“The modus operandi, the high number of victims and the way it was carried out make me think, and I have a hypothesis in mind, that yes it may have been an operative cell from the Arab resistance,” Otegi said, noting that Spain’s government backed the Iraq war despite domestic opposition.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 10:38 AM

FH: "What matters is that terrorism is terrorism, and that Jews, Americans, Spaniards, it doesn't matter. It is plain wrong."

Exactly.

Mary: "Palestinians and al Qaeda are both heavily financed by Saudi Wahhabists.

Palestinians and al Qaeda both seek the rule of Islamic law

Palestinians and al Qaeda deliberately target innocent people. They try to kill as many as they possibly can."

I am really beginning to despair over this. Palestinian TERRORISTS kill innocent people, not Palestinians. If I went around saying that Basques or Irish deliberately kill innocent people, people would rightly call me a bigot. So why isn't the same standard being applied here? Please remember that when you are referring to Palestinians, you are talking about millions of people. Many are children, or the elderly, or pacifists, or scientists, or businessmen.

Most are not terrorists. And if you say "most support terrorism", do you mean that they are all then collectively guilty? If so, remember history, when entire people or races have been labelled collectively guilty, and by who, and ask yourself if you really want to be standing beside them.

Posted by: Stu at March 11, 2004 10:44 AM

Also to be noted from the AP article is that they actually used the word 'terrorist', without the scare quotes, to describe the attack. That's unusual for them. They prefer more sanitized words like "militant" or "activist", certainly when dealing with Arabs. Or they usually place scare quotes on the word terrorist, e.g., "terrorist".

I wonder if it later is revealed that Al-Qaida was responsible, or palestinians as Michael suggested, rather than ETA, will the AP retroactively remove the word 'terrorist' and apply their usual sanitized "militant" or "activist"?

Just a thought.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 10:45 AM

I have been giving this some thought all morning and I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter who planted the bombs. Both ETA and the Islamofascists are cut from the same cloth. They are murderers and totalitarian thugs. We are in a global war on terror and I think we should hunt down all the bastards. Whether they are Wahhabists or Shining Path matters little to me.

Posted by: Paolo at March 11, 2004 10:45 AM

Even if the Basques didn't do it, notice how that basque politician refers to the "Arab resistance."

If that's how the Basques think, it shows where they're sentiments lie. Cut from the same cloth as Al-Qaida.

Scum.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 10:53 AM

Watching the news,I've heard the Spanish interior minister say they were sure it was ETA.Another official said they had evidence,including forensic evidence which they could not yet divulge,that pointed at ETA.

So who do I believe?The Spanish authorities,or the conspiracy theorists on the Internet?Hmm.

Consider this:with several bombs,not one was aimed at a Jewish or American target.That is seriously outside the Jihadi MO.

Posted by: Jussi Hämäläinen at March 11, 2004 11:13 AM

A majority of Palestinians support the goals and tactics used by groups like Hamas. Thousands pour into the street to celebrate terrorist attacks. Does it occur to any of the supporters of Palestinian statehood to be ‘ashamed’ of that? Are they in despair over it? If they are, they’re certainly not forthcoming about it.

Since Kleptocrat and totalitarian Arafat is their ‘democratically elected’ leader, and since he regularly executes women, children and other civilians for the crime of collaboration, it’s hard to tell what the majority of the population believes. There is some doubt that the Palestinian population supports terrorism. There is no doubt that the Palestinian government supports terrorism.

But, as Michael said in his update, there’s no reason to specifically associate the Palestinians with these attacks.

Posted by: mary at March 11, 2004 11:15 AM

Stu, I don't see what's wrong with assigning collective guilt when the collective is rooting for terrorists. If a bunch of guys urge their friend to kill someone, they're all guilty.

Posted by: Jim at March 11, 2004 11:17 AM

Stu, I don't see what's wrong with assigning collective guilt when the collective is rooting for terrorists.

True. I've never seen a Lefty try to make a distinction between "Bush" and Republicans, or conservatives; or "Sharon" and Israelis.

But they go all squeamish on you and want you to split hairs with them when it comes to the palestinians and Hamas, or the PLO.

Fact is, the palis DO support terror, in overwhelming numbers, which is something I doubt you can say for most Basques by the way.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 11:24 AM

Mary, not more than twenty feet from me sits a Palestinian. He's a proud and good father, one of the nicest guys I've met. I regularily have good conversations with him. He has chosen North America as his home, was educated in the states, married an American, and (nervously) visits the US when he can.

When you call Palestinians terrorists, you're calling this man, whom I doubt has even committed a violent act in his life, a terrorist.

Michael, thanks for the update, I imagined it was something like that.

Posted by: Stu at March 11, 2004 11:40 AM

"Even if the Basques didn't do it, notice how that basque politician refers to the "Arab resistance."

If that's how the Basques think, it shows where they're sentiments lie. Cut from the same cloth as Al-Qaida."

David, I would first like to see the transcript of the man's statement in SPANISH and then the alternate translations of his words. Meanings can get blurred when moved from one language to another.

Posted by: Dan Kauffman at March 11, 2004 11:44 AM

David: "I've never seen a Lefty try to make a distinction between "Bush" and Republicans, or conservatives; or "Sharon" and Israelis."

Then you haven't been around much. Lefties make those distinctions all the time. Trouble is, most times if you criticize the policies of the Sharon government or of the Bush administration, you get slapped with an anti-semitic or anti-American label. So I think it's others who are failing to make the distinction.

Posted by: Stu at March 11, 2004 11:55 AM

Dan: Meanings can get blurred when moved from one language to another.

That is true. The phrase "Arab resistance" could very well be revealing of the mindset of the translator rather than the Basque speaker. We don't know. If anyone can find the remarks in Spanish, let me know. I am not at all fluent in speaking or writing in Spanish, but I can read it moderately well.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 11, 2004 11:56 AM

Stu,

Bush is a swell guy too; a real family man. But it doesn't stop your pals from calling him "Bushitler" now does it.

What difference does it make to anybody that you have "nice conversations" with your pali friend if he's shuttling back and forth between Gaza and Florida bringing Hamas funds to purchase suicide belts.

I'm not calling your buddy a terrorist because I don't know him, but your nice conversations with him are irrelevant. What does he believe about palestinian terrorism? That's far more relevant, don't you think? Even if you doubt he himself has committed terrorism, don't you think? Funny how you didn't even tell us where he stands on that; you're too busy using emotional argument, over logic, like the good liberal you are.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 12:01 PM

When you call Palestinians terrorists, you're calling this man, whom I doubt has even committed a violent act in his life, a terrorist.

Well then ask him, before coming to America, did he support terrorism against innocent Israeli civilians?

But this is besides the point - he has left his people and come to settle in America; it is not right to consider him a typical Palestinian. Go talk to the Palestinians who are not interested in joining liberal democracies.

Posted by: Jase at March 11, 2004 12:06 PM

The phrase "Arab resistance" could very well be revealing of the mindset of the translator rather than the Basque speaker.

That Basque politician regularly refers to the "Iraqi resistance" and "palestinian resistance." I did a google search. I have no reason to believe "arab resistance" is a mistranslation. He means Al-Qaida as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 12:07 PM

Spain: Van, Detonators, Quran Tapes Found:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&e=2&u=/ap/20040311/ap_on_re_eu/spain_tape_found

No conspiracy theories here.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 12:09 PM

Jase,

Not that it's hugely important or detracts from your point, but I think Stu is Canadian, not American. (Is that right, Stu?)

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 11, 2004 12:11 PM

Catsy said "Spain is one of America's few contributing allies in the Iraq War"

Few, I do not know what your definition of few is, but 30+ countries involved in the Iraq war do not seem like a few to me. I guess your definition of Few is no Germany, no France, and No Russia.

Will keep that in mind should Germany start another World War and invade France. I guess when we fight back, we will do it with just a few of our friends.

Posted by: James Stephenson at March 11, 2004 12:14 PM

David: "What difference does it make to anybody that you have "nice conversations" with your pali friend if he's shuttling back and forth between Gaza and Florida bringing Hamas funds to purchase suicide belts."

Jase: " ... it is not right to consider him a typical Palestinian."

What can I say? These postings demonstrate a level of intellect that I don't quite know how to address.

Posted by: Stu at March 11, 2004 12:17 PM

I'm still sticking with ETA.I say the tape,the comments by the Batasuna man,and the lack of advance warning all point at one thing:ETA want people to think it was an Islamist attack.

Why?If people think that the Jihadists carried out the attack,a lot of them will blame the Aznar government for provoking the bombing by allying itself with the US,a decision very few people liked in the first place.This could cause them to lose the election.

I think the facts that no American or Israeli targets were bombed,and that the bombing took place just before election,still point to ETA.

Posted by: Jussi Hämäläinen at March 11, 2004 12:25 PM

I don't know who did this, and I'm not going to guess.

But I will respond to this:
"Palestinian TERRORISTS kill innocent people, not Palestinians. If I went around saying that Basques or Irish deliberately kill innocent people, people would rightly call me a bigot. So why isn't the same standard being applied here? Please remember that when you are referring to Palestinians, you are talking about millions of people. Many are children, or the elderly, or pacifists, or scientists, or businessmen.

Most are not terrorists. And if you say "most support terrorism", do you mean that they are all then collectively guilty? If so, remember history, when entire people or races have been labelled collectively guilty, and by who, and ask yourself if you really want to be standing beside them."

First, most Palestinians do support suicide bombing. Last poll I saw put the number at above 60%. Second, if you attach something to that it is responsibility, not 'collective guilt'. Collective guilt ascribes the actions onto those who are not responsible for them. Blaming living Jews for the death of Christ would be collective guilt. Blaming living people for their current support of active terrorism is not collective guilt. In common speech it is understood that when talking about national movements you might not be talking about each individual member. I am a Republican. I support gay marriage. But it is not unfair to say that Republicans do not support gay marriage. It is also not unfair to say that Palestinians support terrorism. They do. They are conscious of it. They continue anyway.

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw at March 11, 2004 12:28 PM

Michael: "Not that it's hugely important or detracts from your point, but I think Stu is Canadian, not American. (Is that right, Stu?)"

Yup, we're in Canada.

You know, Sikh separatists killed several hundred Canadians in the eighties by blowing up a plane in mid-air over the Atlantic. It would have been easy for people to refer to members of our large Sikh community as terrorists, speculate about law-abiding Sikhs or East Indians people supporting terrorists, or denounce an entire ethnic group as bloodthirsty killers, but thankfully, most didn't.

Those were the days.

Posted by: Stu at March 11, 2004 12:31 PM

When I use the word Palestinian, I generally mean the Palestinian government & their paramilitiaries. As I said, the Palestinian government supports terrorist acts. It’s not clear that the Palestinian people do. But if they support a Palestinian state governed by Arafat, then what is their alliance?

I know a Palestinian living in the States. He’s a nice family man who likes America, especially capitalism & the free market. I told him that I, despite my Irish Catholic roots, could not support the IRA or their cause after they began using terrorist attacks. He couldn’t say the same about the Palestinian cause or the Intifada.

Posted by: mary at March 11, 2004 12:32 PM

Jussi,

The fact that no Jews or Americans were attacked is irrelevant. Islamofascists are very clear that Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, secularists, African animists, feminists, gays, liberals, the "wrong" kind of Muslims and so on are all enemies.

Remember Bali? Remember the French tanker bombed in the Mediterranean? Remember the Shi'ite shrine bombed a few days ago in Karbala? Remember the Buddhists statues blown to pieces in Afghanistan?

If you are neither American nor Jewish it won't make you safe. They want you dead unless you're one of them.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 11, 2004 12:33 PM
I'm going to stop responding to the Palestinian issue, it isn't relevant to Michael's posting, and I can't convince people who's mental process work better when they can hate an entire group of people. If anyone's interested, Juan Cole had some good words to say on the issue a while back:
Any time, in a political argument, one side resorts to essentialism and ontology, you are in the presence of propaganda. Human beings are all exactly the same. They all laugh, smile, and have the same emotions. Their cultures have different rules for the games they play, but the games are all recognizable. How one gets honor differs, the quest for honor does not. An entire people (and let's just be honest and say "race"--even though there is no such thing, most people think in these terms) is not characterized by any essential attribute such as "evil" or "violent" or "fanatical," etc. Individuals and groups within the people can commit deeds that are evil, violent or fanatical. When one departs from the deeds of a specific group into speaking of the vices of a whole race or a people, one is descending to demonization and engaging in pure propaganda.

Sorry for derailing the topic two days in a row, Michael.

Posted by: Stu at March 11, 2004 12:39 PM

Stu,

Your point is a perfectly reasonable one, and I agree with the spirit, if not the letter, of what you are saying. It is right and proper to judge an individual as an individual. There are Palestinians, living in the West Bank as well as in the Europe and North America, who do not support terrorism of any kind against anybody.

Unfortunately more than 50 percent of Palestinians tell pollsters they do support suicide-bombing against Israelis. This is why some of us say what we say. The exceptions are, sadly, the minority.

I don't say "the Iraqis" when referring to Baathist insurgents because the so-called "resistance" is a minority.

I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of us agree with the point you are making, even if it doesn't always appear to be the case because of the way we express ourselves. It's good to have someone occasionally remind us. just be aware that that's what you're doing. You're reminding us of what we already know.

Also, a person doesn't have to actually committ terrorism to be morally culpable to an extent. I call a skinhead punk a Nazi even if he never actually gassed any Jews.

Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 11, 2004 12:44 PM

http://www.command-post.org/nk/2_archives/010855.html

Al Qaeda Claims Responsibility For Spanish Bombings

FoxNews is reporting Al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for this morning’s deadly massacre in Spain. No link yet.

3:25 Update: Fox reports a letter has been sent to a London newspaper claiming to be from Al Qaeda, which claims responsibility for the bombings.

3:42 Update: CNN reports Spanish officials are investigating the possiblity of Islamic terrorism after the discovery of a van containing detonators and “an Arabic tape with Koranic teachings.

Posted by: Dan Kauffman at March 11, 2004 12:47 PM

I told him that I, despite my Irish Catholic roots, could not support the IRA or their cause after they began using terrorist attacks. He couldn’t say the same about the Palestinian cause or the Intifada.

Bravo Mary. I'm curious to see what 'level of intellect' Stu will use to adress this.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 12:48 PM

I call a skinhead punk a Nazi even if he never actually gassed any Jews.

A good point. Your comments Stu?

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 12:49 PM

Thanks for the updates Dan. You don't have to be an expert on terrorism to know this doesn't fit ETA's m.o., and that it fits Arab terrorism to a tee, i.e., Al-Qaida.

Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 12:52 PM

Stu: What can I say? These postings demonstrate a level of intellect that I don't quite know how to address.

Sorry, I will try to use smaller words.

But seriously, your original point of judging this man's views on terrorism by how well you got along reminds me of
Truman's first meeting with Stalin:

DAVID MCCULLOUGH: Joseph Stalin was nothing like Tom Pendergast. This was one of the most blood thirsty, murdering, evil men of our time. But Truman had that very American idea - that old, American idea - that if he could just meet the fellow, shake his hand, look him in the eye, size him up - that they could work together, work things out. And everything would be o.k.
NARRATOR: "I can deal with Stalin," Truman wrote. "He is honest but smart as hell." Stalin was less sanguine. He told an aide that Truman was worthless. The Soviet dictator had already determined that he would surrender nothing of any consequence when the bargaining began. That evening - July 17 - Truman, Stalin and Churchill sat down to discuss the fate of Eastern Europe.

As an ex-lefty previously guilty of committing this same fallacy, I can recognize it when I see it, and I see it in your original post.

Posted by: Jase at March 11, 2004 01:47 PM

Since you fixed the up their ally</> typo, maybe you could delete my "droll" comment?

Now that I've had my coffee, I'm not very happy with it.

Posted by: dipnut at March 11, 2004 03:02 PM

What strikes me is that as soon as there's a terror attack, everyone is so quick to jump on the political debate aspect, and even a massacre turns into a right vs. left thing, or a US vs Europe thing.

The human aspect gets so easily overlooked.

I personally don't care if it was ETA or Al Qaeda or Palestinian terrorists or far right gangs or the Red Brigades or the IRA or Timoty McVeigh II.

There were people on those trains. That's my only thought.

And if you want to blame terrorism on political choices you consider wrong (either not siding with the US in Iraq, or siding with the US in Iraq, depending on "where you stand"), then congratulations, you've bought into the terrorist mentality lock stock and barrel. Whatever "side" of the political arena you've placed yourself into, if you attribute responsibilities for terrorism to any other than the terrorists, you've been infected by their mentality.

Why do so many forget terrorism doesn't need motivations to hit? It hits anyway. No matter where you stand, and where your alley is.

The only thing that can possibly prevent an attack is intelligence work, not political strategies. Whatever political strategy you pick doesn't matter to terrorists.

It's disgusting to imply otherwise, and jump on the most tiresome political controversy over warm dead bodies.

Sorry but I can't get my mind off the images of the disaster, and I think a bit of respect would perhaps be more decent.

Posted by: ginger at March 12, 2004 02:33 AM

Stu,

not more than twenty feet from me sits a Palestinian

You haven't stated the views he's expressed to you on the issue of terrorism. Furthermore, even if he had expressed condemnation of terrorism, how do you know what he says in Arabic or when you're not around?

85% of Palestinians support terrorism as a policy if it is successful. It only drops to something like 60% because a small minority of those who would otherwise be terrorist supporters don't think it is working. Is your friend in the 85% or the 15%?

It would have been easy for people to refer to members of our large Sikh community as terrorists

Do Sikhs have a 35 year record of killing Canadians with impugnity and being rewarded for it? Do Sikh political and religious leaders encourage bloodthirsty hatred of Canadians day after day after day? Do 85% of Sikhs support killing Canadians if it will help achieve their objectives? Unless your can answer YES to all of these questions, it is yet another example of your bigoted moral eqivalence.

Posted by: HA at March 12, 2004 04:43 AM

To those who are desperate to have this atrocity be the work of the ETA, keep in mind that this would represent an escalation of their violence. Even if it turns out that Arab terrorists had nothing to do with this, the ETA would still be following their example. Arab terrorists have been consistently rewarded for terrorism by Western leftists, socialists and appeasers. Every single terrorist movement in the world is learning from the Arab example. If you want to get rewarded for terrorism, raise the death toll of innocent civilians. If you want to achieve nothing, blow up empty buildings.

To all you leftists, socialists and appeasers - take a look in the mirror and know that the blood of these innocent Spaniards is on your hands. If you spend over three decades excusing and rewarding savagery you will get more savagery.

Posted by: HA at March 12, 2004 05:00 AM

"Sorry but I can't get my mind off the images of the disaster"

DISASTER? Was this an earthquake? Flood? Typhoon?

This was MURDER. Why is that so hard to accept?

Posted by: Ex at March 12, 2004 05:47 AM

Ex: Where the hell did you read a lack of acknwoledgement that it was terrorism?

"Disaster" wasn't meant to DENY it was murder, sheesh. It was just a word to mean the horror, the attack, the carnage. Do you have to nitpick on words when we all know what happened?

Go pick a fight on something else. PLEASE.

Posted by: ginger at March 12, 2004 06:52 AM

I believe Ex above just gave another perfect example of what I meant in the first post.

: shakes head :

Posted by: ginger at March 12, 2004 06:53 AM

To all you leftists, socialists and appeasers - take a look in the mirror and know that the blood of these innocent Spaniards is on your hands.

There you go, congratulations for fitting right into the jihadi mentality.

Just out of curiosity: the blood of the victims of 9/11 was on... ?

Not the perpetrators of the attack themselves, no?

: shakes head again :

Posted by: ginger at March 12, 2004 07:13 AM

Is it too much to ask, to keep the political discussion separate from the "blood on your hands" blame game...

Posted by: ginger at March 12, 2004 07:16 AM

ginger: Not if you take politics seriously. A policemen is not to blame for a massacure of a McDonalds by a maniac if he sits on his hands and doesn't try to prevent, but he is certainly responsible.

As per my post, I wasn't picking on you as much as the false meme that terrorism is like the weather or geological events (disasters, blow backs, etc) instead of the cold-blooded murder of innocents deliberatly done by very bad human beings.

Posted by: Ex at March 12, 2004 07:28 AM

Ex: A policemen is not to blame for a massacure of a McDonalds by a maniac if he sits on his hands and doesn't try to prevent, but he is certainly responsible.

Well, he is responsible if he literally sits on his hands while the massacre is taking place in front of his eyes. He will also be subject to disciplinary action because it's his specific job to protect citizens.

I fail to see how that policeman example relates to HA's "blood on the hands of LEFTIES", though. I don't particularly share what HA, in his blanket statement, equates with "the lefties" position on terrorism, but I can hardly blame even the most clueless terrorist-apologist indymedia kid for the death of 200 - or 3000 - people. I believe in a democracy all political opinions are not only free but also legitimate, even those I disagree with.

Surely the NADIR of political discourse has to be equating the responsibility of a political view you see as faulty/deluded/insane or whatever with the literal murderous action of terrorists. Political views don't kill. Terrorism does, and doesn't need to find endorsement in any political views to do so.

That was my point.

A more appropriate comparison to your policeman example would be, if intelligence services in Spain KNEW this would happen, when and where, and did NOTHING at all to prevent it.

I have my doubts it went that way, though there are surely elements of intelligence and security failures when terrorists strike, but then again, intelligence services cannot prevent all terrorist attacks. In Spain, like in the US.

Sorry to nitpick, like...

Posted by: ginger at March 12, 2004 07:39 AM

PS - As per my post, I wasn't picking on you as much as the false meme that terrorism is like the weather or geological events (disasters, blow backs, etc) instead of the cold-blooded murder of innocents deliberatly done by very bad human beings.

Ok, Ex, understood, but a) you were addressing your point to me in the specific, so yes, you were nitpicking on something I wrote and b) I don't know any ordinary sane person who literally equates terrorism with earthquakes, or more generally natural disasters with murder. Except in terms of resulting deaths, that is.

Posted by: ginger at March 12, 2004 07:42 AM

"I believe in a democracy all political opinions are not only free but also legitimate, even those I disagree with."

What if the position is the overthrow of democracy? What if the natural outcome of such political viewpoints is murder or genocide?

PS: As a democrat, how can you separate the political viewpoints of citizens from the State? In a democracy, the people are State. If a State fails to save lives because of the viewpoints of some citizens, those citizens might be responsible.

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"Please remember that when you are referring to Palestinians, you are talking about millions of people. Many are children, or the elderly, or pacifists, or scientists, or businessmen."

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But Yeal, not every German was a member of the National Socialist Workers Party and not all of them worked the gas chambers.

Sure, they took their free watches and homes from dead Jews, and voted the killers into power, and sat on their hands in the face of atrocities, and cheered on the murder...but it wasn't their fault.

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Posted by: sam at March 12, 2004 10:37 AM

Something more on topic, ETA have denied responsibility for the attacks. Of course as other people on this thread have suggested it is perfectly possible that they are lying. But, with Al-Qaeda affilliated groups claiming responsibility this is looking less and less likely. I'm wondering what the reaction of the voters will be in the elections on Sunday.

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sam: It depends on how you define "voted" - don't forget they were invited by von Papen (who was also elected) because the Nazis were popular and did hold seats.

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Ex: What if the position is the overthrow of democracy? What if the natural outcome of such political viewpoints is murder or genocide?

I was talking about positions, opinions, as in views. Political views. Such as are discussed in papers, blogs, bars, and in voting polls of course.

It was implied that I was not talkin about political programs and activities by organised groups, whether parties or terrorists or subversives.

There is a clear difference between "opinions" and "subversive action to overthrow democracy and/or murder or cause genocide", the former are granted total freedom, the latter are punishable by law.

I never thought that would need explaining...

PS: As a democrat, how can you separate the political viewpoints of citizens from the State? In a democracy, the people are State. If a State fails to save lives because of the viewpoints of some citizens, those citizens might be responsible.

?

"because of the viewpoints"? How? A state will "fail to save lives" if it has the capability to prevent an attack (or disaster) and doesn't act in time.

There are investigations into this sort of thing aren't there? Well, what is the investigation into 9/11 investigating, the political opinions of citizens, or the work of the intelligence and police and authorities?

Think. It's easy.

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But that's not considering terrorism as a "natural disaster". That means you do in fact understand what terrorism is, and you do acknowledge that it is murder, only you believe that kind of murder it has POLITICAL motivations - so you assign the blame for that murder not on terrorists but on something else.

Poverty, oil, war, impersonal forces, or... "lefties".

It's all the same warped reasoning, no matter who you place the blame for terror on.

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Terror and Liberalism
Paul Berman, The American Prospect

The Men Who Would Be Orwell
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Looking the World in the Eye
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