March 10, 2004
Is Smoking Rated R?
The AP reports the lastest front in the war against smoking.
LOS ANGELES — If Nicolas Cage lights a cigarette in a movie, Hollywood's ratings board should respond as if he used a profanity, according to authors of a new study that criticizes glamorous images of smoking in movies rated for children under 17.Some people think smoking is offensive, obviously. But is it really comparable to profanity?…
"No one is saying there should never be any smoking in the movies," Glantz, a professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, said Tuesday at a press conference at Hollywood High School. "What we're simply asking for is that smoking be treated by Hollywood as seriously as it treats offensive language."
What would the authors of this study rather have me do? Like up a smoke on a street corner? Or say eff you in front of their kids?
Since R-rated films typically earn less money because they are not open to most teenagers, Glantz said he hoped such a policy would discourage filmmakers from depicting unnecessary smoking, such as the nicotine-addicted worm aliens in “Men in Black.”This is just bullying and control freakery, a way to impose an agenda on artists by threatening to cost them millions of dollars if they don’t comply.
Why stop with smoking? If we’re going to protect The Children from seeing bad adult habits on screen, we might as well restrict the number of Twinkies, french fries, and Froot Loops an actor or actress can eat in a movie.
Here’s another AP headline for you: Obesity May Pass Smoking As Top Killer
Maybe next the MPAA will slap an R rating on a movie if an actor or actress is fat.
In the meantime, I think kicking smokers out of every bar in New York and California ought to be enough micro-management for now.
Posted by Michael J. Totten at March 10, 2004 11:04 AMSince R-rated films typically earn less money because they are not open to most teenagers, Glantz said he hoped such a policy would discourage filmmakers from depicting unnecessary smoking, such as the nicotine-addicted worm aliens in “Men in Black.”
I thought that they were "addicted" to coffee or is that just the animated series?
Posted by: Thorley Winston at March 10, 2004 11:51 AMI know gross generalizations aren't always fair, but when I hear about the kind of people who churn out ideas like this, I automatically think "Democrat," and I'm guessing most other Americans do too (and I'm a Dem myself). I know a lot of other people who are otherwise liberal Dems who just roll their eyes at the people who get themselves in a lather about other people smoking in a saloon or eating Big Macs. Here's a perfect opportunity to open just a little small-l libertarian crack in the Democratic party.
To any Dem politician seeking a relatively pain-free "Sister Souljah moment," why not start by denouncing this kind of trivia as a waste of valuable time and effort?
Posted by: Gene at March 10, 2004 12:04 PMWhat bullshit. Smoking is fun! Especially your smoking!
Posted by: dipnut at March 10, 2004 12:07 PMGene, Spot on, though I am an ex-Democrat now, I had the very same thought. Only the liberal-left would equate smoking to profanity or come to such a conclusion. Sure the Republicans have their issues that invoke the same kind of embarrassment for the more rational on their side as well. But this smell comes from the other direction for sure.
This is just stupid! I am a parent with 3 teenagers. Hmm, let's see, I better make sure they don't have any smoking scenes in this movie. I can tell you I would worry about some scenes with activity that ended -ing, smoking would not be one of them...
WARNING SCENE MAY CONTAIN EXPLICIT SMOKING PARENTAL DISCRETION ADVISED!
Posted by: Samuel at March 10, 2004 12:32 PMI think smoking is about as disgusting as sucking on the exhaust stack of a semi truck, but the thing is, I love the fact we are a free country and I mistrust the health "Nazis" quite a bit...just wait until they start trying to tax twinkies or put a warning on cans of soda. Because of that, I'll come down on the side of the smokers.
Posted by: Mike Silverman at March 10, 2004 12:39 PMAs a side note, I think that extreme moralists are the same breed, no matter whether they have a D or an R next to their name. The D's want to shame you for smoking, the R's want to shame you if you are gay. The prime impluse is the same, though..."I know better then you"
Posted by: Mike Silverman at March 10, 2004 12:41 PMTaking a cue from South Park, and speaking as a Californian, it'd be much more appropriate if Rob Reiner turned his laser-like focus onto the cheeseburgers and donuts that are rapidly escorting him towards an early, welcoming grave. Short of that, anyone want to take him off our hands? Jersey? Anyone?
Posted by: Christopher Luebcke at March 10, 2004 12:51 PMChristopher,
I like some of his movies. We'll take him up here if you're done with him.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 10, 2004 01:35 PMGene: while I agree with your generalization, and admit to thinking along the same lines, I would add that we could describe a fault line on these sorts of things for Democrats and Republicans. I'm not exactly sure how it would go but here is a start:
Democrats = outlaw: smoking, obesity, alcohol, violence (in movies), video games;
Republicans = outlaw: swearing, alternate lifestyles, secularism, gay marriage, body piercing, tatoos.
In both cases the proponents know what is best for you, even if you don't.
Posted by: steve at March 10, 2004 01:38 PM"The D's want to shame you for smoking, the R's want to shame you if you are gay."
Unless you're Mike Bloomberg; then you can do both!
Posted by: Mark Poling at March 10, 2004 01:47 PMSteve: Democrats = outlaw: smoking, obesity, alcohol, violence (in movies), video games;
Republicans = outlaw: swearing, alternate lifestyles, secularism, gay marriage, body piercing, tatoos.
I smoke, drink, watch violent movies, play video games, swear, live in an "alternate lifestyle" urban neighborhood, don't believe in God, have gay "married" friends, and have a pierced left ear.
If the control freaks have their way, I will nearly cease to exist.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 10, 2004 01:49 PMbut when I hear about the kind of people who churn out ideas like this, I automatically think "Democrat"
I'm with steve on this. There's general agreement between the Democtrats and the Republicans that the government can control you for your own good. They just disagree about the particulars.
(And I say this as a (substantially disgruntled) Republican).
Posted by: lewy14 at March 10, 2004 01:52 PMIf the point of age-restrictions on movies is to keep certain harmful images from children, then it's perfectly logical to rank smoking up there with violence, profanity, sex, and drug use.
Well, the logic isn't perfect, since profanity is much less harmful than smoking.
Posted by: DC at March 10, 2004 01:56 PMI was especially offended by that scene in The Passion of the Christ that showed Roman soldiers smoking during the Crucifixion.
Posted by: Zhombre at March 10, 2004 02:03 PMDC makes a good point... which disturbs me greatly. Its a mad, mad world.
Posted by: FH at March 10, 2004 02:03 PM"just wait until they start trying to tax twinkies or put a warning on cans of soda."
They should--just like they tax cigarettes. I don't want to pay more in health insurance costs because other people choose to kill themselves eating that crap. Let those who choose to bring on heart disease and diabetes by eating/drinking junk, foot the bill.
As for givng films that show smoking an "R" rating, I agree that's over the top.
Posted by: hill at March 10, 2004 02:41 PM"They should--just like they tax cigarettes. I don't want to pay more in health insurance costs because other people choose to kill themselves eating that crap"
Do people actually have to pay more in health costs because of smokers and fat people? Considering they statistically die younger, I would assume the cost would actually be less.
Posted by: mnm at March 10, 2004 03:13 PM While we are on the subject of "bad influences" on
children, why stop at smoking? I personally would love
to see restrictions on the dumb blond, immature female personnas who have inflicted a whole generation of teenage
daughters with the "Whatever!" syndrome.
I'm speaking of the prototypical roles played by the likes of Jennifer Annistons, Lisa Kudrows, Reese Witherspoon, and Alicia Silverstone who have served as illegitimate role models
of what it means to behave as a woman when you grow beyond adolescence. The cadence, the dumbed down venacular, the ridiculous body language has been adopted
whole cloth by my daughters. Send a 11 year old once to
one of these movies and she will be inflicted with this
cultural virus for the next ten years.
mnm - They do die younger, however individual health insurance is usually issued on an age-(and often sex-) adjusted basis, so the fact that there are fewer 75-year old smokers won't lower your premiums any.
As far as group insurance goes, there is a bit of subsidy that goes on (government-mandated, by the way), and your costs will go down from having fewer older coworkers. This will likely be approximately counterbalanced by the increased healthcare costs of smokers before they die.
This does not apply to Medicare, where the fewer living patients factor very likely dominates the increased health cost issue -- both smokers and non-smokers tend to die very expensive deaths these days.
hill - I will point out that although smokers costs more in healthcare costs than non-smokers, ex-smokers cost more than either, even adjusted for age and sex.
Posted by: Oddly Normal at March 10, 2004 03:28 PM IMHO, Dems have the edge in Nannyism, which, by definition
requires big government (with regulations, beaurocrats, and endless rules.)
I've seen a steady stream of Libertarians move to or from the
Republican party. I see much less of this with the Dems.
Oddly Normal, your comments are concerned with health care costs, but I'd also like to factor in the costs of caring for people living longer lives as well. They also require housing, transportation, food, etc. And let's not forget that Medicare doesn't cover, for instance, nursing home costs, except in the case of short-term post-surgical stays. For people who live long-term in nursing homes or assisted living, once their savings (and the willingness of their families to pitch in) are depleted, Medicaid picks up the tab. Imagine the effects of the largest age cohort in history living well into their 80s and 90s ... which we will be faced with in another 20 years. Which isn't to say that you're wrong ... I don't know and I am not qualified to do the analysis, but the costs of longer human lives are VERY real.
Posted by: Gene at March 10, 2004 03:44 PMHug a smoker, when you're 90, your meds will be financed by a dead smoker.
Posted by: mnm at March 10, 2004 04:27 PMThere's a sensible solution to the whole smoking-in-bars debate, by the way, and it maximizes the freedom of both smokers and those of us allergic to it.
The place I usually frequent around these parts is a little whole-in-the-wall English-style pub called the Wellington (or the Welly for short). They recently installed this gigantic contraption on the ceiling that sucks up all the smoke. It makes a hell of a racket but when the place gets crowded (and/or the Guinness starts working on you) you kinda just forget it's there.
If anyone can see the valid points on both sides of this issue it's me because I both detest the PC Police and at the same time suffer from killer allergies. This fan/vent contraption thing really works, though.
If you're gonna legislate this sorta thing, why not just legislate that every bar has to have something like that? Everybody wins. Everydody's freedoms are reasonably protected. Isn't that what government is supposed to do?
Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 10, 2004 04:28 PMPS...
Someone talked about wanting to open up a crack in the Democratic Party for small "l" libertarianism. Buddy, if you can manage to pull that one off, and these libertarians are hawkish on defense, sign me up as a partisan Dem.
Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 10, 2004 04:36 PMGrant: Buddy, if you can manage to pull that one off, and these libertarians are hawkish on defense, sign me up as a partisan Dem.
Me, too.
Posted by: Michael J. Totten at March 10, 2004 04:46 PMGene - that's very true, actually. Of course, there are also non-healthcare costs associated with smoking -- missed days of work, early medical retirements, environmental pollution, and so forth. There are certainly too many such factors for me to evaluate fully, let alone whilst commenting on a blog. I commented on the healthcare costs because that's the only one of those I know anything special about -- I'm a health actuary, and it was actually the question mnm asked.
Posted by: Oddly Normal at March 10, 2004 05:14 PMGrant and MJT don't hold your breath on that one. I hear my wife like an echo chamber with the following. She sees something she doesn't like, the first thing she says is "They ought to pass a law..." Of course now that I am a menacing evil neo-con, I should just say next time "Don't worry about it, if they won't pass a law, file a lawsuit, liberal activist judges will take care of that!"
A little more libertarianism would be nice, but you'll have to accept that the majority of those hopes will continue to come from the other side.
Posted by: Samuel at March 10, 2004 05:29 PMWait a minute. You actually like Rob Reiner? Say it isn't so ... :)
Posted by: karrie at March 10, 2004 10:10 PMthis is maybe more roger l. simon's territory, but the control freaks have already gotten a lot of their way in hollywood.
back about 15 or 20 years ago, there were 3 'period' shows on tv at the same time: 'homefront' (set in 1946), 'brooklyn bridge,' (1956) and 'i'll fly away' (sometime around the beginning of the 60s.) in all 3 shows, the characters, esp. the 'good' characters, smoked a lot less than people did at the time. an adolescent girl in 'i'll fly away' anachronistically referred to her politician father (sam waterston) taking money from 'the tobacco lobby.'
and still people complain that hollywood glamorizes smoking. glad they haven't censored 'the big sleep' or 'now voyager.' but give 'em time.
Oooooooooh Christ, Michael...
If you're reading this then I'm begging you to go read an article I happened across just now. It's got absolutely nothing to do with smoking, nothing whatsoever in fact, I just had to pass this along to you somehow. I know for a FACT you'll be glad I did. It reads like a manifesto. Let's just say this chap's one of ours.
Here's the link...
www.browndailyherald.com/stories.asp?storyID=2049
Posted by: Grant McEntire at March 11, 2004 01:23 AMUh, asking that a movie be rated "R" is not going to threaten your existence Michael....
Michael perhaps you should put the bong down and relax, the weekend is over and it's time to come down. First you channeled pejman's ridiculous post and now you're all up in arms and over the top on this issue.
Breathe. No one is coming after you. Breathe.
Here's what I wrote at jarvis' site:
Totten has a comprehension problem and a research problem, and it seems you may too.Posted by: anne.elk at March 11, 2004 04:55 AMWhy pile on another blogger's silly statements when you have google?
Did you read the article that Totten linked to?
"No one is saying there should never be any smoking in the movies," Glantz, a professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, said Tuesday at a press conference at Hollywood High School. "What we're simply asking for is that smoking be treated by Hollywood as seriously as it treats offensive language."
Glantz doesn't find smoking offensive. He finds it dangerous to children.
Did you then try to find out more by simpling googling the author's name?
Feb. 27, 2004 -- This year's Oscar for best comeback: smoking in movies.Movie portrayals of smoking dropped by more than half by the early 1980s. A steady increase since then returned smoking to historic highs in 2002 movies.
The findings come from analysis of randomly selected, top-grossing U.S. films by Stanton A. Glantz, PhD, and colleagues at the University of California, San Francisco. Their report appears in the February issue of the American Journal of Public Health.
"In the real world, smoking has returned to levels observed in 1950, when smoking was nearly twice as prevalent in reality as it was in 2000," Glantz and colleagues write. "The pro-tobacco influence of the high smoking levels in recent movies will continue to be a pro-tobacco influence on teenagers for years to come unless remedial action is taken."
Why might this be a problem? Earlier this year, a Dartmouth study reported evidence that half of all teens who first try cigarettes do so because they saw it in the movies.
If you accept the premise that kids are influenced by movie smoking, and if you believe smoking is a health problem, and addictive, and an economic drain on society, then you might believe that since smoking is not first amendment protected speech, than you might come to believe that smoking is different than profanity.
If so, some or all of the author's recommendations may make some sense.
They urge "remedial action" to counteract this pro-tobacco effect on teens. Glantz is director of the UCSF Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education. The center's web site calls for four actions: * Give an "R" rating to movies that show smoking unless it's a historical portrayal or unless it shows smoking to be harmful.
* Movies should certify that neither the production nor anyone involved in the film accepted money from the tobacco industry.
* Require any movie showing smoking to carry strong antismoking ads.
* Stop identifying tobacco brands in movies.
I think the "R" rating my be justified and at least provides for an interesting debate and not just casual dismissal as you and totten have done. I think it's completely reasonable to ask that movie producers do not accept money from the tobacco companies, and that movies stop identifying tobacco brands.
Since I know you find profanity offensive and dangerous to your son and to your relationship wth him (I agree with your view of this btw) that you ban users of profanity from your site, I am surprised that you are okay with increased, gratuitous, and pandering use of cigarettes in the movies, including movies that are aimed towards children including 102 Dalmatians and many movies targeted toward teens.
If Totten told you to jump off a cliff, would you jump off a cliff?
The health police are working toward an agenda. Now that liability has become a buzz word in American culture, the blame merchants have to find someone else to sue. The Trials Lawyers Association of America, one of the largest contributors to the Democrat party, needs fresh blood.
"Unhealthy" is soon going to become a disease, perpetuated by the courts and the lawyers. Since the tobacco companies have taken their hits, it is now time for the Fast Food industry. The fat people in New York are not going to be the end of this.
This is just another step in putting "unhealthy" choices in the realm of taboo so public sentiment will move toward the region in which McDonalds can be sued for making you fat and you have no resposibility for your own sorry butt.
Posted by: Roark at March 11, 2004 05:23 AMAnne, MT was joking when he said he'd "cease to exist." But your multiply-posted essay is a good one in the sense that it would have been good if he weren't joking.
Posted by: Jim at March 11, 2004 05:45 AMI'll try and comment on this in general. I've got a couple of small children myself and I've long since come to the conclusion that, I can't sanitize the world for my kids, I can only try to prepare my kids for the world. Smoking exist in the real world, it's only natural that it will show up in movies. Yea, it's a risky habit (especially cigarrette), and no, I can't garantee that my children won't ever try it. If I do my job right though, maybe when it comes time for them to make that call, it'll be an informed choice and not based on who else does it or what media they saw it in.
Regarding profanity, that's just been "cooked down" to specific words - which is just plain stupid. Without using any of those "banned words", I can damage someone's self confidence, ruin a reputation, mislead someone, etc. That is offensive language. On the other hand, the use of a word the even Webster calls a "meaningless intensive" kinda pales in comparison doesn't it?
Then there's "the incident" during the superbowl. Sadly, I missed it. I did see a Sports Illustrated photo that appeared to be taken just after the fact. She looked peeved, which gave me the impression that this was an accident. However, not having actually seen it, I can't say for sure. What I did get to see (and hear) were legions of insta-pundits fighting each other over who was most offended by it. Maybe Janet and Justin did take an excessive risk with that last bit, but, then again, it's just a boob. If it truly is that offensive, incorporate a 7 second delay like they do in radio and move on.
Posted by: joekm at March 11, 2004 05:55 AMI feel your pain, Michael. It's just mad. What would Cary Grant say? Humphrey Bogart? Bette Davis? James Dean?
And how should those movies they were in be rated, "smoking advisory"?
Not that cinema has anything to do with artistic content and acting qualities, nah. It's all about educating The Stupid Masses.
Individuals are no longer responsible for themselves. These are the effects of all those lawsuits against smoking companies, right? Now the movie industry is scared someone might come up with the idea of blaming their smoking habit on a film? If that's not blackmail...
Posted by: ginger at March 11, 2004 06:24 AM"Hug a smoker, when you're 90, your meds will be financed by a dead smoker."
Assuming that the money hasn't already been spent by then - note how many states (NJ, NY, OH, RI, CA, if not more) are selling "tobacco securitization bonds," which basically sell off the rights to future cash flows from tobacco taxes to balance their bloated budgets now.
This is why I quit smoking - let the rest of you mugs pay your fair share in taxes. Besides, what I used to spend on smokes, I now donate to tort-reform groups and certain Republican candidates.
Also - reading about the Nanny State makes my blood pressure rise - so can I sue Ralph Nader and Rob Reiner?
Posted by: Percy Dovetonsils at March 11, 2004 06:54 AMHey I just had a thought about the obesity thing...
Doesn't the Atkin's diet specify reducing carb and increasing fats and protiens? I think the answer might be right in front of us...we have to bring back cannabilism...we have to hunt down and eat the obese members of our society.
Now think about it for a minute...
The fit among us will get regular excersize hunting down the obese (or the new PC term "Atkin's Friendly") Americans.
Since they are "Atkin's Friendly" Americans, consuming them will help the fit to stay in trim.
Those specific "Atkin's Friendly" Americans that wish not to be eaten now have excellent motivation to get in shape themselves.
The net effect could be to reduce health care cost for all of us...
...see what happens when I don't get my morning coffee?
:)
Posted by: joekm at March 11, 2004 07:11 AMLiberals initiated this witch hunt on "Big Tobbacco". Where did you think it would end?
"Fast Food" is next on the ever-activist Leftist agenda.
Posted by: David at March 11, 2004 07:27 AMDavid...
I hate to tell you this, man, but the witch hunts are coming from both sides of the aisle. For liberals, it's a witch hunt against consumption and violence. For conservatives, it's a witch hunt against sex and drugs and secularism. You can't tell me that conservatives aren't every bit as guilty when, for them, Roe vs. Wade is public enemy number one.
And these people can go on as many witch hunts as they want, for all I care. Let them protest the overly supersized elements of society or Janet Jackson's boobs if they want. They've got every right to protest and argue their case, to inform and to persuade. What they don't have a right to do is to try and restrict my liberties and freedom of choice or to use my tax dollars to further their cause.
I'm personally getting a little fed up with having to watch government subsidized anti-marijuana propaganda commercials every time I turn on the TV when my terminally ill father is made to needlessly stomach the constant pain of multiple-sclerosis as a result. If you're gonna blast the foes of liberty, try and be fair about it. Conservatives deserve every bit as much of your scorn (and if you ask me, maybe even a tad more).
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