It was a very mainstream stance to support Oslo (which involved Arafat) right up to 1999. But Kerry should have known better.

Way back in 1994, when I was only 16, I said that Arafat has blood on his hands and no Israeli should shake them. A leopard doesn't change his spots.

me and my simplistic youthful views...

Kerry should have known better.

But, Jono, Kerry didn't support Arafat. At least not according to that article. He criticized Arafat's rise to "statesman."

Say the Israelis were to merely assassinate Arafat or that he were to die, somehow. Would his successor just be simply another Arafat? Is Arafat the popular leader of his people, do you think, or could a more moderate Palestinian take his place and still command the support of his people.

I've often wondered how deep the problem goes, in this sense. We don't deal with Arafat because Arafat is clearly the problem, the roadblock to peaceful coexistance. But what if Arafat is the true voice of his people? What if the Palestinian majority is the roadblock to peaceful coexistance, too? Anybody have any answers to this?

Grant,

Anybody have any answers to this?

Yeah, I do. The Palestinians are deranged savages who danced in the streets on 9/11. They make the Nazi youth look like the Boy Scouts. They deserve their own state about as much as the Ku Klux Klan. You ought to spend some time at LGF.

Speaking of 'ole Yassar, here is a forgotten bit of history:

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/canoel.htm

Ambassador Noel and Moore were among a group of men seized and held hostage by Yassir Arafat’s Black September terrorists during a reception at the Saudi Embassy in Khartoum. Their lives hung by a thread, a thread that Yassir Arafat ordered cut. His words ordering the execution of these top American officials and a Belgian diplomat were recorded by the Israelis who gave the tape to the State Department and President Nixon in March 1973....The terrorists demanded the release of Sirhan Sirhan, the Palestinian assassin of Robert Kennedy

Why is Arafat even alive after having American diplomats murdered in cold blood? And why would he demand the release of Sirhan Sirhan?

Grant,

One more thing. The PLO was conceived and built by the KGB.

http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_10752.shtml

The Soviet Union still haunts us from the grave.

I almost think there should be some kind of licensing requirement for journalism. You've just described the journalistic equivalent of driving the wrong way up a highway offramp.

Ha: "The Palestinians are deranged savages who danced in the streets on 9/11"

And the above comment from "Ha" reminds why I don't read the comments on LFG very often. While I think it's crucial to point out that there is something horribly broken in Palestinian society, saying that "Palestinians" are "deranged savages" seems to mean something else. I used to think every White person in the American South was an inbred racist scumbag, but have since come to understand that this was my chauvinism hiding behind what would otherwise have been a principled stance against violent racism. My way of thinking about the South took attention away from the real problem by making me sound like someone who should be ignored. Let's just say that "chauvinism" might be too mild a term for what Ha's statement about Palestinians sounds like. The world needs reasonable Palestinian people to make their voices heard but, knowing the risks, is it hard to understand why this hasn't been happening much? The zealots in Palestine have created a kind of gulag in which any reasonable cultural impulse is imprisoned. Arafat is the worst enemy of the Palestinian people. LGF is on target in calling the arming of children "child abuse." Palestinians are enslaved by the savagery of their "leaders" and zealots and I think we should be clear about that. [Reminder to skimmers: I'm responding to "Ha" not to Michael]

While I think it's crucial to point out that there is something horribly broken in Palestinian society, saying that "Palestinians" are "deranged savages" seems to mean something else.

Exactly. Well put, Jeremy.

Grant: a response to your question would be action intended at removing that ideological, political, financial pressure that keeps Palestinian society in the hands of Arab leaders who play the terrorist game. It'd be a huge effort required, and, IMHO, sadly there's too many factors that kept it that game up in the first place, a big part of that is financial relations and that's a blackmail that's hard to get out of. Especially because the choice is between one kind of blackmail and the other...

In the seventies, when the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza were relatively docile, the big debate in Israel was over whether Judea and Samaria ought to be annexed (check out Likud platforms from that era), whether the Alon plan to offer Jordan large Arab population centers in the West Bank went too far, and whether "Palestinians" really existed. If the West Bank Palestinians HAD remained docile, it seems highly likely that this is where the debate would still be today.

Asserting one belief on Tuesday and its opposite on Thursday is "waffling." Asserting one belief in 1997 and a slightly less nuanced version of the same belief in 2004 is not.

This campaign season has only barely begun, and I already don't ever want to hear the word "waffle" again, outside of a diner.

Grant,
The fact that Arafat and the PA have a tendency to murder moderate Palestinians who speak out against them suggests that Arafat is not the "voice of the people". Arafat should have been in his grave a long time ago, the only reason he isn't is that people are worried that we might get someone worse. Plus the fact that Arafat has gotten extremely good at dodging the bullets, both political and physical.

Remember, when Lenin died some in the the West thought that things in Russia would have to improve, then along came Stalin.

markus: Were they justified then in murdering olympic atheletes? Was that the best alternative rather than remaining "docile"? Just trying to get inside your mindset, where murder is justified by petty real estate claims.

Michael, I'm a little unclear on the last set of quotes you offered from Kerry's book. As written, they don't really back up your conclusion. Where in those 2 paragraphs does Kerry state that "other people" said those things about Arafat? Did you leave something out?

Ex -- I wasn't talking about Palestinian terrorists like Black September, which were supported by and based in the other Arab countries. I was talking about Palestinians living in the West Bank. West Bank Arabs were more or less quiet during the first twenty years of Israeli occupation. Their docility was rewarded by an upsurge in settlement building activity under the Likud governments that came to power beginning in 1977.

Palestinians were also rewarded with an increase in settlement building activity in the aftermath of Oslo, under both Labor and Likud governments.

The Israeli-Palestinian dispute is a conflict between two peoples with compelling claims to one small piece of land. There have been and there continue to be workable solutions to this disupute that involve negotiation and non-violent resistence instead of war. But both sides have rejected these possible solutions, and have opted for war instead, thinking they can thereby achieve ALL of their objectives. And terrorism is how peoples without armies fight.

Yet one side is winning and one side is losing. But I forgot that to be "just" today is to be stupid and self-defeating.

Gene: Where in those 2 paragraphs does Kerry state that "other people" said those things about Arafat? Did you leave something out?

Well, for one thing Kerry put 'role model' in quotes. And he clearly objected to Arafat's transformation from terrorist to 'statesman.' Obviously someone other than himself thought Arafat became a statesman.

I'm really not sure why this isn't obvious to people. Kerry did not call Arafat a statesman. He called Arafat a terrorist.

Markus,

Do you think that if black Americans waged a jihad against white people instead of producing a Martin Luther King that race relations would have improved or gotten worse since the 1960s?

The Palestinians were way better off before the suicide-bombings. But you are implying they improved their condition. I think you might want to rethink that.

Sam: "The fact that Arafat and the PA have a tendency to murder moderate Palestinians who speak out against them suggests that Arafat is not the "voice of the people".

Hmm. I seem to remember a moderate Israeli PM being murdered a while back. But not by Palestinians.

Grant: "Just trying to get inside your mindset, where murder is justified by petty real estate claims."

I also remember British troops being murdered in Palestine in the late 40's. But not by Palestinians.

Jono: "Way back in 1994, when I was only 16, I said that Arafat has blood on his hands and no Israeli should shake them."

I also remember Menachem Begin, Israeli PM, and organizer of the King David Hotel terrorist bombing that killed 91 people.

HA: "The Palestinians are deranged savages who danced in the streets on 9/11."

Wow, every single Palestinian was on the streets dancing that day, were they? Because if they weren't, that statement would one of the most foul odious bigoted statements that I've seen on MJT's comments section ever.

Look, the suicide bombings that kill innocent Israelis is foul beyond belief. But so is burning Palestinian children alive in the street just so a terrorist can be assassinated. Israel's hands aren't crystal clean in this either. And not all Palestinians should be labelled as terrorists because of the actions of a minority, any more than Iraqis should because some Iraqis are killing Americans, or any more than Israelis should because some of them used terrorism in the past. To do so is pure bigotry.

Stu's thesis is that the Isrelies or Americans are "as bad" as the Palistinians as far as opression and terrorism, hence it is bigotry to assign their society as having problems. He then cherrypicks a few anomalies as "proof."

Common sense and half a brain shows that this is very divorced from reality. And ignoring a problem is not a solution.

Ex: "Stu's thesis is that the Isrelies or Americans are "as bad" as the Palistinians as far as opression and terrorism, hence it is bigotry to assign their society as having problems. He then cherrypicks a few anomalies as "proof."

Where did I say that 'Isrelies or Americans are "as bad" as the Palistinians'? Look at the posting again if you want, but I didn't say anything even close to that.

A shorter, simpler version of my point is that if one can label all Palestinians as terrorists because of the actions of a few, the same can be done with the Isrealis, and that it isn't right in either case.

And I have no idea whatsoever where you got the idea that I said anything about Americans. Take a deep breathe and read slower, mm'kay?

Stu,

Ex is a reactionary. He thinks anyone to the left of himself is Vladimir Lenin.

You and I often disagree, but I understood your point well enough.

"You and I often disagree, but I understood your point well enough."

Oh good, thanks. I was re-reading my post it and thinking that any abilities of self-expression I had must be falling apart.

Kerry (quoted by Orin): "Terrorist organizations with specific political agendas may be encouraged and emboldened by Yasser Arafat's transformation from outlaw to statesman," Kerry wrote in "The New War," [1997].

Michael Totten: I'm really not sure why this isn't obvious to people. Kerry did not call Arafat a statesman. He called Arafat a terrorist.

Kerry spokesman David Wade (quoted by Orin): [Kerry changed his mind] in the years when Arafat rejected peace proposal after peace proposal and failed to stop the violence.

This is how I read Kerry's (and his spokesman's) remarks:

1) 1997-Kerry regarded Arafat as a former terrorist who had transformed himself into a "statesman" and "partner for peace."

2) 2004-Kerry has learned from Arafat's post-Oslo (or post-Camp David) behavior that he is a thug and not a "partner for peace."

According to your interpretation (as I understand it), Kerry at one time (1997) regarded Arafat both as a "terrorist" and a "partner for peace." Do you really intend to ascribe that incoherent pair of views to Kerry?

I think Orin is correct. Kerry once thought that Arafat had left his terrorist past behind him, but subsequent events caused Kerry to change his mind. Doesn't his spokesman's statement support that interpretation?

I've blogged on this as well, and responded to your post. In short:

1) Oslo was an obvious sham at the beginning - see item 7 of this MEMRI report).

2) Kerry did say that Arafat became a statesman, not that he was merely perceived as one.

3) Kerry indeed did not say that Arafat was a role model - the phrase appears in scare quotes, reflecting that terrorists perceive him as one.

4) Whether Kerry knows it or not, Arafat is seen as a role model because he can support jihad before Arabic audiences without losing his clout with the "international community." (I use scare quotes because "community" implies a greater degree of unity and cooperation than actually exists.)

MDP: I think Orin is correct.

Forget that you don't like Kerry for a minute.

Kerry said that calling a terrorist like Arafat a "statesman" emboldens other terrorists. And he was absolutely correct to say so. He also puts "role model" in sneer quotes.

Kerry did not say Arafat is a statesman. He was criticizing other people for thinking Arafat was a statesman. Otherwise, why warn people that promoting Arafat emboldens terrorists?

Just because Kerry used the word "statesman" in the same sentence as "Arafat" does not he said Arafat was a statesman.

Michael -- I do think the comparison of many Palestinians with a violent, uncompromising black liberation movement in the US during the civil rights era is an apt one. But to take the analogy farther, let's imagine the Palestinians had a Martin Luther King. Southerers weren't very persuaded by him, either. So if the Pals were nonviolent, who would the meddling freedom riders, the national guardsman integrating public schools, or the federal judges and nonsouthern representatives imposing civil rights laws on the south be, under the same scenario?

Obviously Palestinians are worse off right now, but in the event that they eventually give up their maximalist dreams and elect a leadership willing to live in peace with Israel, I am not sure whether or not we'll be able to say that the suicide bombings helped or hurt their cause. (Similarly, I don't agree with those on the left that maintain that the tough Israeli military response has only made more enemies and has not also helped the Palestinians to slowly realize that Israel is determined to stay.) I recall an article you wrote saying that any final settlement must be less, even if only an inch less, than what was offered at Camp David, in order to send a message that terrorism doesn't work. In the real world, I think that is unlikely to happen.

Prior to the first intifada, the only Israelis that supported a two-state solution were the far-left. Today, everyone, even the neocons support it in theory. In summer 2000, Barak's government collapsed after he offered Arafat a tiny part of East Jerusalem (not the Temple Mount area). Today, after several years of terror, who doubts that a majority of Israelis would be willing to give up the Temple Mount in exchange for peace?

Then again, if the fence really does end the terrorism, why should Israel bother?

There is so little consideration of anything other than tribal self-interest on both sides of this battle. As a result, neither side will give any ground unless it becomes inordinately painful not to, or unless a responsible third party like the United States forces it to.

Alan,

What do you think the point of this sentence is:

Terrorist organizations with specific political agendas may be encouraged and emboldened by Yasser Arafat's transformation from outlaw to statesman.

Do you the writer is pro-Arafat? Or anti-Arafat?

Is the writer warning people not to be fooled by Arafat's "transformation"? Or does the writer think Arafat's "promotion" is a good thing?

Discuss. Avoid the use of the word "statesman."

"But to take the analogy farther, let's imagine the Palestinians had a Martin Luther King. Southerers weren't very persuaded by him, either. So if the Pals were nonviolent, who would the meddling freedom riders, the national guardsman integrating public schools, or the federal judges and nonsouthern representatives imposing civil rights laws on the south be, under the same scenario?"

Israelis.
By starting the suicide-bombing campaign the Palestinians completely destroyed the pro-peace Israeli left. Israelis are a fundamentally decent people, like the Americans that King convinced, like the British that Ghandi won over. Non-violent civil disobedience would be a far more effective tactic for the Palestinians if they weren't too bloodthirsty to use it.

Joel: the Palestinians completely destroyed the pro-peace Israeli left.

Yep. They declared themselves enemies of civilization. I used to support their cause. Not anymore. I have very close to zero sympathy for them now.

" Non-violent civil disobedience would be a far more effective tactic for the Palestinians if they weren't too bloodthirsty to use it."

Once again, this is a bigoted statement. I personally know Palestinians who aren't blood-thirsty, and who are peaceful. I know that one-third of Palestinans under military occupation would accept Israeli citizenship if offered, I know (from conservatives who quote the figures) that at least 40% of polled Palestinians don't support the bombers. I know there qare non-violent Palestinian political organizations.

So why maker offensive blanket statements like that?

I'm surprised that the "debate" on this misrepresentation of Kerry's views hasn't died more quickly. It seems pretty clear to me in the passage from Kerry's book that he is using statesman in the neutral sense of "political leader" and that his use of "role model" is intended as sarcastic. There is plenty enough Kerry waffling around without having to resort to invention. (I will say that the final sentence - written in 1997 - is somewhat reassuring.)

"In our time, terrorism has too often been successful. If one measure is the diffusion of fear, terrorists have done so from the subways of Tokyo to those of Manhattan. And if the criterion is the achievement of stated political ends, terrorists have scored some significant victories there as well, and much sooner than nearly anyone would have predicted. In his contribution to a symposium-like volume published in 1986 under the title Temoiism: How the West Can Win, the noted historian Paul Johnson writes: 'What has the PLO, the quintessential terrorist movement of modern times, achieved? After the PLO and the other terrorist? After the PLO and the other terrorist movements it succored racked up an appalling total of lives extinguished and property destroyed, how far have they progressed toward achieving their stated political ends? Not at all; in fact they have regressed. The Palestinian state is further away than ever.' Only eleven years have passed since those words appeared in print. If nothing else, this indicates the velocity of change in the late twentieth century. Terrorist organizations with specific political agendas may be encouraged and emboldened by Yasser Arafat's transformation from outlaw to statesman, while those whose only object is to disrupt society require no such 'role models.' In fact, what most encourages and emboldens terrorists now are the unprecedented opportunities inherent in the new world of porous borders, instant communications, and access to weapons of mass destruction. Like everything, global terrorism is mutating at a very rapid rate. Failure to prepare for the new strains verges on the suicidal." (emphasis added)

Here's the deal. Kerry really is a waffler. But if conservative critics go and make up a bunch of crap, no one is going to listen to a bunch of right-wing boys who cry wolf.

Either argue with integrity or lose your credibility.

Michael Totten: Kerry did not say Arafat is a statesman. He was criticizing other people for thinking Arafat was a statesman. Otherwise, why warn people that promoting Arafat emboldens terrorists?

Maybe because the example set by Arafat's transformation and international acceptance teaches other terrorists that they can escape punishment if they eventually change their tactics and become politicians. That is the lesson of Arafat's life, and it holds even if he did become a genuine "statesman." Arafat's example encourages terrorists to think they can blow up civilians for a few decades without losing all hope of absolution.

You apparently think Kerry's '97 analysis must include the premise that Arafat was at that time a terrorist and not a statesman. I can't believe I'm writing this, but you are not doing justice to the subtlety of Kerry's thinking.

And if Kerry thought Arafat was still a terrorist and not a "statesman" in '97, then how could he have been a "partner for peace" (in Kerry's view)?

Michael, seems to me you're reading at least the first quote wrong. I'd read the first one as indicating that terrorist organizations may be encouraged and emboldened to emulate Arafat in his transformation from outlaw to statesman. Note that there are no scare quotes around statesman, and I would say that the default position of Democrats at the time was that Arafat had made that transition--remember this was only a few years after the Oslo Accords, and prior to the intifada.

Not sure about the second quote; it could be read two different ways. The scare quotes around role model could mean that terrorists whose only object was to disrupt society would not see him as a role model.

In any event, I don't see this as evidence of a flip-flop so much as evidence that Kerry can be duped into believing profoundly evil people are really just nice guys who want the best for their "people".

Here's an article where Kerry specifically states that he no longer considers Arafat a statesman:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1078&dept_id=151021&newsid=11092020&PAG=461&rfi=9

Stu: I know ... that at least 40% of polled Palestinians don't support the bombers.

According to the BBC, 80% of Palestinians approved of suicide bombings until the Israelis began fighting back in earnest. The approval figure then dropped to 60%. I read the drop as a pragmatic reevaluation of suicide bombing as a tactic of war, and not as an idealistic disavowal of the practice.

As recently as October 2003, 75% of polled Palestinians still supported the bombings.

"As recently as October 2003, 75% of polled Palestinians still supported the bombings."

And the same article mentions that 85% of Palestinians want a mutual ceasefire.

"I read the drop as a pragmatic reevaluation of suicide bombing as a tactic of war, and not as an idealistic disavowal of the practice."

Maybe, maybe not. I'd be more happy to see it as an idealistic disavowal also. But either way, people changing their attitude about suicide bombing is probably a good thing, don't you think?

MDP: As recently as October 2003, 75% of polled Palestinians still supported the bombings.

Stu: And the same article mentions that 85% of Palestinians want a mutual ceasefire.

Right, but they (or at least 75% of them) don't want a ceasefire because they disapprove of suicide bombing. The poll explicitly tells us that 75% do approve of the practice. They simply realize it's not a winning tactic.

I agree with you that "bloodthirsty" is an unhelpfully lurid description, but it seems undeniable that the overwhelming majority of Palestians approve of targeting civilians in principle.

Pat Curley, good catch on the Kerry interview:

John Kerry says he no longer considers Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat to be a statesman, but rather "an outlaw to the peace process" in the Middle East who has been rightly shuffled aside.

....

"He was (a statesman) in 1995," Kerry said, recalling frequent White House meetings between Israeli and Palestinian leaders in search of peace in the Middle East.

Assuming the AP didn't distort Kerry's meaning, I think that demolishes the "hack" accusation against Orin.

"I agree with you that 'bloodthirsty' is an unhelpfully lurid description..."

Thanks, that's the crux of what I was trying to get across. Demonizing these people brings us no closer to a lasting settlement (no pun intended) of the issue.

"... but it seems undeniable that the overwhelming majority of Palestians approve of targeting civilians in principle."

Possibly, and if so, I think that's bad. Of course, you might have seen similar figures in the US population's attitudes regarding the purposeful nuking of Japanese civilians at the end of WWII, but that didn't necessarily make Americans bloodthirsty either. People were at the end of a bloody war, their feelings were hardened, they found various ways to justify it as necessary, and may not have had the capacity to make a moral stand on the issue. The same may be true of many Palestinians at this point.

But, as I said, these gruesome mass killings must stop. The perpetuators are little better than mass murderers, whatever their political beliefs, and they do nothing but harm to their cause.

Stu:
But, as I said, these gruesome mass killings must stop. The perpetuators are little better than mass murderers, whatever their political beliefs, and they do nothing but harm to their cause.

What do you mean by "their cause" ?

I think you've missed the point. If the terrorists behind the suicide bombings had a cause that involved a 2-state diplomatic solution, then perhaps they wouldn't be randomly murdering innocent Israeli civilians ?

Their "cause" or goal is simple genocide. One state, one religion, one people.

In that respect, suicide bombings are most helpful towards their cause.

Jono: Their "cause" or goal is simple genocide. One state, one religion, one people.

Yep. It's fascism in liberal drag.

Those who are willing to make a deal with Israel and settle for a two-state solution are not the ones blowing themselves up in coffeeshops.

Jeremy Brown,

My way of thinking about the South took attention away from the real problem by making me sound like someone who should be ignored.

I'm happy for you. That was touching. Really. I'm glad you were finally able to overcome your hatred of white trash. But do you really think your "chauvinism" took attention away from anything? Do you really think somebody ever thought "those civil rights marchers are getting attacked with water cannon and German shepherds, but Jeremy hates white trash so I understand their rage."

Your chauvinism was no more a distraction from the civil rights movement than your narcicism is a distraction from Palestinian savagery. Get a grip.

Markus,

If the West Bank Palestinians HAD remained docile, it seems highly likely that this is where the debate would still be today.

That's the problem. Terrorism exists because it has been proven an effective instrument of foreign policy thanks to terrorist sympathizers, appeasers and codependents like you, Jeremy, ginger and Stu.

If you want to change a behavior, change the response. The response to Arafat's terrorism for over three decades has been to reward it. We need to start punishing it. We should start by killing Arafat and his associates for murdering American diplomats and citizens.

Stu,

And not all Palestinians should be labelled as terrorists because of the actions of a minority, any more than Iraqis should because some Iraqis are killing Americans, or any more than Israelis should because some of them used terrorism in the past. To do so is pure bigotry.

And not all Germans were fascists because a minority gassed Jews. And not all Confederates were racists because a minority owned slaves. And not all Japanese were war criminals because a few raped Nanking and led the Bataan Death March. Using your logic (and I use the term loosely), Nazi Germany, the Confederacy and Imperial Japan could not be condemned as entities.

The fact is Nazi Germany, the Confderacy and Imperial Japan were derranged and savage towards those they hated. Their societies were collectively guilty and they were collectively punished. Did the Germans deserve Dresden? Did the Confederates deserve Sherman's March? Did the Japanese deserve Hiroshima? You bet they did. Likewise, the Palestinians deserve all their suffering - and more. Until they capitulate. Only then will they be worthy of their own state.

You've accused me of bigotry. Yet I see you holding Palestinians to no standard of civilized behavior while holding the Israelis to an impossible standard. So who is the bigot? Try searching your own soul.

If the Israelis withdrew to the Green line tomorrow and removed all settlers, terrorism would not only continue, but it would flourish. But you must know this. You are obviously not stupid. Like the Palestinians, you won't be satisfied that the Jews are "clean" until they've been driven into the Mediterranean. But at least your hands will be "crystal clean." Today's globalized anti-Semites prefer to outsource the Final Solution to those who work cheap and don't mind getting their hands dirty. Because theirs is a labor of love. Yours is just an intellectual game.

Stu,

Demonizing these people brings us no closer to a lasting settlement (no pun intended) of the issue.

Yes it does. It makes it possible to overome one's moral revulsion to doing the horrible things one has to do in war.

Linked, with no further comment, since you nailed it on the head. (Except that, as pointed out, having one opinion, and seven years later, having a somewhat different opinion, isn't "waffling." "Waffling," as pointed out, needs to take place within a reasonably close period of time to meet the meaning no more than a year, at most, I'd say; otherwise it's "changing your mind.")

What do you think the point of this sentence is:

I think MDP put it succinctly:

Maybe because the example set by Arafat's transformation and international acceptance teaches other terrorists that they can escape punishment if they eventually change their tactics and become politicians. That is the lesson of Arafat's life, and it holds even if he did become a genuine "statesman." Arafat's example encourages terrorists to think they can blow up civilians for a few decades without losing all hope of absolution.

As the linked MEMRI report in the prior post states, Arafat - on the day Oslo was signed - said to an Arab audience that Oslo was a step toward implementing the 1974 "Phased Plan" to destroy Israel. That he could publicly endorse the eventual destruction of Israel and still retain his newly-gained stature within the "international community" encouraged them to continue the terrorist fight.

Well, the comments have made clear that Kerry was duped by Arafat back in the day (that is, he believed, like many others that Arafat was a "statesman"). Not exactly a point in his favor, eh, Michael?

The fact that we can spend all this time trying ro figure out what the hell Kerry believes and when he believes it is also not exactly a point in his favor. Kerry is a master at embedding his views in ambiguity, so he can change them later, and this appears to be no exception.

Feh.

Sorry, perhaps, "bloodthirsty" was the wrong word. Would "morbid culture of death" work better? I'm not trying to apply the terms as a blanket condemnation of all Palestinians, just the 70-80% who think that suicide bombings are an ok tactic in war. Palestinians kids collect baseball cards of suicide bombers and are taught in schools with maps devoid of Israel. How is that culture ok?

Michael Totten: Kerry didn’t say the Palestinian terror-master was a statesman ...

Kerry (quoted by the Associated Press): "He was (a statesman) in 1995," Kerry said, recalling frequent White House meetings between Israeli and Palestinian leaders in search of peace in the Middle East.

Michael Totten: [I]f conservative critics go and make up a bunch of crap, no one is going to listen to a bunch of right-wing boys who cry wolf. Either argue with integrity or lose your credibility.

Exactly. And arguing with integrity requires dealing with the AP interview.

According to your post, Orin is a "hack" because Kerry didn't describe Arafat as a "statesman," and therefore Kerry hasn't waffled in his opinion of the PLO leader. So how do you explain Kerry's AP interview confirming that he once thought "Arafat was a statesman"?

Maybe the AP has misinterpreted or misquoted Kerry. If you want to make that argument, then do so. Otherwise, basic intellectual honesty should make you retract (and possibly apologize for) your charge that Orin and her editors are illiterate hacks.

Stu: "Demonizing these people brings us no closer to a lasting settlement (no pun intended) of the issue."

HA: "Yes it does. It makes it possible to overome one's moral revulsion to doing the horrible things one has to do in war."

And that is how things like the Bataan death march, the nazi concentration camps, the killing fields, and the gulags become possible.

MJT: "Those who are willing to make a deal with Israel and settle for a two-state solution are not the ones blowing themselves up in coffeeshops."

Too true.

Just out of curiosity, what do you see as the eventual fix for the Israel/Palestinian mess? Do you favour a two-state solution?

I think that you're absolutely right on this, Michael. While I find John Kerry despicable, in part because he tries to take every stand conceivable on a wide variety of subjects, this looks to me like he learned something between 1997 and 2004. At the very least, he deserves that presumption.

Jim, I don't think you're getting Michael Totten's point:

According to Orin, Kerry used to think Arafat was a "statesman" and "partner for peace," but now thinks less of the PLO leader.

Totten is arguing that Orin misread Kerry, and that he never regarded Arafat as a "statesman".

In other words, Orin's the one who says Kerry changed his views as a result of experience. Totten, on the other hand, argues that the alleged "change" in Kerry's position is Orin's invention.

Michael, after looking at this I agree with MDP: you definitely need to retract this post, or explain why you won't.

I'm inclined to cut Kerry a break on this, but intellectual integrity DEFINITELY demands you remove (or at least modify) your "Hack" attack upon Orin, because clearly she is properly interpreting the quote as presented by the AP - it was YOU who wasn't. The question that comes next (should John Kerry be criticized for not realizing that Arafat has always been the Once and Future Thug?) is a separate one, and one which you can engage fruitfully with Orin on. (As I said, I think he deserves a pass considering so many wanted to believe peace was possible at the time.) But you've wronged her here.

Or am I totally missing something?

Michael, I agree with Jeff regarding retracting the comment about Orin misreading Kerry's statement. Kerry's prose was muddled, which is probably what caused the problem--nobody wants to encourage and embolden terrorists. But the fact that he has stated that he did think Arafat was a statesman at the time and that he no longer thinks that way pretty much disproves your theory.

Michael,

I was struck by that little article when I first read it in the NYP. And you are right -- they are hacks. However, I disagree with were you think NYP is hamming it up.

"Kerry didn’t say the Palestinian terror-master was a statesman or a role model. He criticized other people for saying so"

not so, at least not so from the parts excerpted in the article. Kerry clearly thinks that Arafat made the leap from a leader of a terrorist organization to a bona-fide statesman. However, he never calls Arafat a role model for anyone but other terrorists with similar political aspirations for their terrorist organizations. (which is a dubious praise, mind you).

For Debra Orin to say that Kerry himself considers Arafat either a role-model of a statesman or a role-model of a terrorist is at the very least disingenious and unfair.

I do not see a problem with Kerry changing his mind about Arafat over last 7 years. I have a problem with him claiming to his mind every few days depending on the audience he is speaking to. I do not know which is worse - that he might be changing his mind so often or lying so often.

Stu,

And that is how things like the Bataan death march, the nazi concentration camps, the killing fields, and the gulags become possible.

So characterizing those who engage in deranged savagery as deranged savages puts us on the slippery slope to concentration camps, killing fields and gulags?

Did Jews do anything to deserve getting gassed? Did blacks do anything to deserve getting enslaved and lynched? Did the Chinese do anything to deserve getting Raped at Nanking? No. They were all victims of movements driven by hate. As are the thousands of American victims of the Palestinian/Arab/Islamist hate movement:

http://avpv.tripod.com/AmericanVictims.html

Palestinians have been slaughtering Americans with impugnity since 1968 when one of them murdered Bobby Kennedy. Maybe that is okay with you, but in my view it is way past time they paid for their savagery.

You are attempting to draw equivalence between the victims of hate crimes and the perpetrators of hate crimes. There is a clear and consistent pattern of this in your comments. If you can't call the Palestinians what they are, you are morally corrupt relativist at best and/or - subconciously at least - an anti-Semitic, anti-American bigot at worst.

You are repulsive.

[Palestinians'] docility was rewarded by an upsurge in settlement building activity under the Likud governments that came to power beginning in 1977

Actually, the post-1977 settlements were closely related to the Palestinians' rejection of Begin's offer of autonomy at Camp David. I don't mean to defend the settlement program, which I consider both illegal and immoral, but it didn't come out of thin air. The settlements were originally envisioned as defensive measures - Roman coloni if you will - and the Begin-era upsurge was motivated as much by Palestinian rejectionism as by Gush Emunim colonialism.

I think you're also overestimating the "docility" of the Palestinians before the first intifada. Most of the municipal elections during the mid-1970s were won by nationalist candidates with ties to militant factions based outside the WB/Gaza. What you say about Israeli opinion during this time is mostly true, but the Palestinians weren't doing much of anything to convince the Israelis to change their minds.

So, tell me, HA. How should the Palestinians "pay for their savagery?" What exactly is it you have in mind for these people? When you say that demonizing the Palestinians has value because "it makes it possible to overome one's moral revulsion to doing the horrible things one has to do in war," what is it exactly that you're talking about?

And I was wondering how long it would take before my remarks suggesting that ALL Palestinians not be regarded as terrorists because of the actions of some of them got me tarred with the "anti-semetism" and "anti-American" brush. Not long, despite saying nothing critical of either Jews or Americans. Sadly, the more those terms are used so injudiciously by those who don't have two thoughts to rub together, the less they come to mean. And that's unfortunate.

HA,

So characterizing those who engage in deranged savagery as deranged savages puts us on the slippery slope to concentration camps, killing fields and gulags?...Did Jews do anything to deserve getting gassed? Did blacks do anything to deserve getting enslaved and lynched? Did the Chinese do anything to deserve getting Raped at Nanking? No. They were all victims of movements driven by hate.

So, how would you describe your feelings toward the Palestinians? Sure sounds like you, um, hate them. Or maybe I'm wrong, and calling them "deranged savages" and likening them to the Klan doesn't denote hatred. Maybe you like the Klan, and absolutely love deranged savages. The point Stu is making, I think, is that a necessary first step to concentration camps, gulags, and genocide is to convince yourself that your opposition is basically irredeemable and that coexistence is impossible. This certainly seems to be your attitude. As Stu says, what is your solution? Do you have some particular "horrible things" in mind?

Stu,

What exactly is it you have in mind for these people?

Tell them they will never have a state until they reform their society to meet a minimum standard of civilized behavior. Cut off all funding and support. Finish building the condom around the West Bank. Kill off the leadership including Arafat, Sheik Yassin, and all their deputies, cronies and henchmen that can be found. Then if the savages turn their bloodlust on each other in the ensuing power struggle, so be it. Let the hyenas feed on themselves.

despite saying nothing critical of either Jews or Americans

You're smarter than that. You use the cleverly veiled bigotry of double standards instead. As I've already said, you hold the Palestinians to no standard of civilized behavior and hold the Israelis to an impossible standard. You equate the Palestinian savage who blows away a child sleeping in her bed at point blank range with the Israeli soldier who incidentally kills the human shields that the terrorist mastermind who sent the savage on his mission surrounds himself with. You equate the Western Marxist terrorist movements of the 70's with the Islamic terrorist movements as signs of moral equivalence between Western and Islamic civilizations. You've stated that the Iraqi relatives of those killed by us in the war wouldn't mind seeing a nuke go off in the West and in the next sentence compare the Iraqi civilian deaths to 30 9/11's. Your comments demonstrate a clear pattern of the bigotry of relativism and moral equivalence.

And that's unfortunate.

You are obviously skilled in the art of creative ambiguity, and you use it to mask your anti-American and anti-Semitic bigotry. You are clever enough to give yourself a rhetorical outlet. The only unfortunate thing for you is that someone is finally calling you out on it.

Smokey,

Sure sounds like you, um, hate them.

You're damn right I do. That is what it takes to win a war. I hated the Russians during the Cold War too. I always hate my enemy in a time of war. Not because of who they are but for what they do. They hate me for what I am not for what I do. And you know what? They hate you just as much no matter how much you try to appease them. They would just kill you last.

My hatred for them will end when they capitulate and change their behavior as it did for the Russians. There is no behavioral change that the West can make that will end their hatred for us. They hate us for who we are, not for what we do. Their hatred for you and me will not end until they realize it has only earned them suffering. If you want to change the behavior, change the response. Our response to over three decades of Arab terrorism has been to reward it. We need to start punishing them for it.

My question for you is who's behavior do you want to see changed? Ours or theirs?

Stu/Smokey,

I can always count on current events to support my arguments:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20040310/wl_nm/iraq_mideast_abbas_dc

HA,

Your "arguments"? Is that the new euphemism for hate-filled rhetoric? The article you link supports you how? Because a minor Palestinian terror group blames America for Abbas' death? Because Arafat calls him a martyr? I'm unclear how this would support you in any way, except for the basic claim that "Arafat is a bastard", which is not in dispute. What is in dispute is your ridiculous and morally abhorrent claim that the solution is for the Palestinians to be rounded up and killed until they "capitulate" in some way.

And as for your assertion that hatred is "what it takes to win a war," you're welcome to try that. Me, I'd rather have military superiority and good intelligence. But if you think your enemies can be vanquished by the sheer purity of your hatred, maybe you've been watching too much LOTR.

Smokey,

I'd rather have military superiority and good intelligence.

Then I would have to assume you won't be voting for Kerry since he has spent his Congressional career trying to gut our military and intelligence services with single-minded determination.

Unless of course your comment was insincere and you don't really give a shit about America having military and intelligence superiority.

Which is it? Smart money says the latter.

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