Interesting Michael. A vote for Nader was supposed to be a vote for Bush. So perhaps I haven’t changed at all and I’m just reverting to form. If you lived in Florida in 2000 and foresaw the outcome would you still have voted for Nader?

Samuel: If you lived in Florida in 2000 and foresaw the outcome would you still have voted for Nader?

I would have voted for Pat Buchanan.

That's a joke, of course. I would have voted for Gore. I hoped he would win, so that's what I should have done in the first place. Not that it would have changed anything.

Actually, I don't regret voting for Nader at all. He was the one who convinced me that there wasn't a huge difference between Gore and Bush. Bush wasn't half as extremist as his worst critics contended. And I realized this before he was even elected, or I would have been too afraid to vote for Nader. This partly explains, I think, why Bush Hatred never infected me as much as it did some other people. I had to look at him long and hard and honestly before I could risk putting him in the White House. And I didn't think he was so terrible even back then. I just didn't like him much. Still don't, actually, but Kerry bothers me a lot too.

Considering that Bush had a double-digit lead in the polls three weeks out last time, and continued to lead going into election day, how exactly did you come to the conclusion last time that Gore would win? I mean, he did "win", but how did you know that?

Steve: I mean, he did "win", but how did you know that?

Obviously I didn't know he would "win," but I remember thinking that he probably would. At least in my liberal state of Oregon, which is all that really matters when deciding how to vote tactically. But he actually almost lost in my state, which really did surprise me. It was razor thin here, and at one point Oregon was prematurely called for Bush.

Michael, I have the hardest time trying to imagine you voting for Ralph Nader. You've said on numerous occasions that it wasn't really 9/11 that changed you, that your politics have been what they've been sense maybe Bosnia or something.

In a nutshell, and in a gross over-simplification, your politics are to the Right of the Democratic Party and to the Left of the Republicans. You're a Centrist, more or less: An Independent. Yeah, I know, this is hugely simplistic, but more or less true. Right?

SO WHAT IN THE HELL WERE YOU DOING VOTING FOR RALPH NADER?! Your frustrations w/ the Democratic Party theoretically, I assume, came from them being too dogmatic and rigid in their liberalism. So you protest their liberal-dogma by voting for Mr. Liberal-Dogma-At-Any-Speed?! That's insanity, buddy. I'm, I'd have to say, slightly to your Left and I'd never even think about it.

Please please please...make some sense of this for me. I have a ton of respect for you but this has just simply boggled my mind for too long.

Steve, election models had Gore winning 53%, maybe the Nader factor caused some difference. As someone with a fair amount of experience in polling I will say that when neither polls better than 50% there are votes up for grabs for sure. More significantly is this: Election models showed Gore with an Electoral College lock, every prediction of a Candidate losing the Popular Vote but winning the Electoral College had Gore winning. The kicker with that is I remember seeing one of these analyses and said “Tough shit, that’s the way the Constitution is written!” Man did I change my tune when the tables turned.

Michael...I would have voted for Pat Buchanan.

Sounds like you’ve been sharing jokes with my Father. My Mother actually wonders if she did.

Grant to me Michael is a "War Liberal" in other words a liberal who puts Hawkish survival and perhaps globalism first. I don't see much conservative, counter-balance to declare him as centrist. Just more open minded, that actually make him a rare true liberal.

Samuel...

I'll take all of that commentary on MJT being a "War Liberal" and "Open-Minded" as an implicit compliment to my own politics as well, then. You've stopped short of saying all of this about me, too. Thanks.

Did you hear that though, Totten? You're a "Real-Liberal". Welcome back. ;)

Samuel...

Hey, make sure and check the "DIGGING HOLES" commentary too. I responded to something of yours there...kind of important.

Grant, that goes for you too. Check your e-mail.

Grant: Your frustrations w/ the Democratic Party theoretically, I assume, came from them being too dogmatic and rigid in their liberalism.

Actually, no. When I said my views haven't changed much, I meant in the realm of foreign policy.

What attracted me to Nader was also his opposition to NAFTA and GATT. (I suppose this is also foreign policy, but I tend to think of foreign policy in military, not economic, terms.)

Since then I've argued myself into the center on NAFTA and GATT. I understand as clearly as I ever did the problems of globalization. (Sweat shops, etc.) What I've learned in the meantime are the positive aspects of it. So I've become a centrist on this question. I haven't written about this much because I've ended up in a place that's so neutral it's probably boring to read about. So I've spared you. I do have an article in the queue at Tech Central Station on this subject, though, so I'm not being totally silent about it. I occasionally have something to say.

9/11 had nothing to do with me changing my mind about economic globalizatoin. What changed my mind was a book called The Third Wave by Alvin Toffler.

Michael:

Yep, trade IS as much foreign policy as it is economic policy: Especially when it can be used to export democracy as well as it can American products (the big reason I'm all for Free Trade). That's why I tend to break down non-domestic policy into 2 groups: Foreign Policy and Defense Policy. It helps, believe me.

A Question About Globalization, though: What's your solution for the loss in American jobs to outsourcing. And don't give me any Mankiwian crap about it being good for the country in the long-run because in the long-run we're all dead. I want real solutions to the problems at hand, here, the problems we have today.

No one on either side of the debate can seem to come up with an answer to this one. I don't care if it's boring. The New Republic won't even touch this one and they seem to have an answer to everything. Enlighten me.

I voted for Gore without affection while never disliking Bush as much as some of my friends. I have to say that I was very critical of anyone who voted for Nader. One's vote is almost always symbolic, an act of solidarity and good faith, and I think that breaking the covenant of shared good faith for frivolous reasons defines one as unserious in a fundamental way.

Because no candidate is ever perfect. It's ALWAYS the lesser of two evils.

I'll add that I thought Clinton should have resigned, saying that he could no longer govern effectively, thereby serving the country unselfishly and giving Gore what might have been an unbeatable advantage in the 2000 race.

It seemed to me that Clinton might well have gained a great deal of sympathy and credit if he had chosen to fall on his sword in this way, and the fact that he did not may have reflected much we do not know about relations between the two in those days.

And Michael I don't think you're unserious. But I think you did an unserious thing.

Are we defined by our actions? Sure. Yet everyone makes mistakes. Drunken driving that results in manslaughter is an action very different from voting once for a fool.

Samuel...

Damn It! Thought I had just landed myself one hell of a friend in academia and acquaintance at Columbia University. Just had my dreams of Grad School in New York City smashed. I'm thoroughly pissed off now, not at you, just at the world.

Screw humble pie! I'm still stuck in Indiana!

Grant:A Question About Globalization, though: What's your solution for the loss in American jobs to outsourcing.

Boy, I wish I knew. But I really don't. Sorry. Some people really get creamed by globalization. Like I said, I am still aware of the downside.

Grant: Just had my dreams of Grad School in New York City smashed.

I may not know you in person, but I really am sorry to read that.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Clinton taking the high road?! Clinton "falling on his sword"?!!! That would require a shred of dignity and honor. We are talking about the same Bill Clinton, here, right?

Miklos I agree 100% especially about Gore. How can a country where 2/3's of the American public answers positive on the Right/Wrong track question, lose an election? Your characterization of the Clinton situation is exact. I will go as far as to say without a Nixon resignation we probably wouldn’t have had Reagan. No doubt history would be different either way. Gore would be President had Clinton resigned in my opinion. He would have been running as an incumbent partially purged of the Clinton burden.

Michael...

Eh, the Columbia University thing is a long long story. Something between Samuel and I. Nevermind.

Guess I still have a shot at getting in on my own, though. I've got a 3.7 GPA, right? How hard could it be? Snowballs don't always have to necessarily melt in hell, do they?

Grant: the "Bill Clinton" I hoped for did not, uh, ever really exist. I didn't want to know.

I will also stipulate that in 2000 I did not know who Al Gore really was. His violent anti-Bush polemic when he announced support for Howard Dean gave me some serious heebie-jeebies. Very creepy stuff.

"Gore would be President had Clinton resigned in my opinion. He would have been running as an incumbent partially purged of the Clinton burden"...

Wouldn't that kind of only go to reinforce the claim that Bush was going to "set a new tone in Washington" and bring back dignity to the White House, though? Wouldn't Gore of been instantly identified as part of the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION OF DISHONOR? That probably would have been superbly easy to run against (especially for the Republicans) and sealed Gore's fate for sure if you ask me, not distance him from it.

The Republicans never could muster the votes to remove Clinton from office and the country moved on. Clinton stepping down would have been like an unnecessary concession of defeat and the country wouldn't have moved on. Not in only 2 years time. The 2000 Election would have been framed as Bush vs. The Party of Clinton and Clinton's Lackie Al Gore.

Miklos...

Dude, I don't think even Al Gore knows who Al Gore is. Or if he does, he's the most soulless politician on the planet in that he's willing to align himself with anything and anyone that will get him back in the White House. It's that last part that scares me about the guy. He's demonstrated a Nixonian thirst for power these past couple of months.

I think people saw Clinton and Gore as almost entirely separate entities. Gore was certainly not seen as personally sleazy -- if anything he came across as rather too much of a wooden Boy Scout.

And I've seen analyses of that election that say Gore sought to separate himself from Clinton far too much, that this was perhaps his biggest mistake.

Yeah, but would it have been his biggest mistake if Clinton had resigned, in essence, admitting that he committed pergury? I think that would have changed everything.

You overestimate the intelligence of the average voter. In the minds of most people, Clinton didn't commit pergury because he wasn't voted out of office. He did, in fact, commit pergury but because nothing came of it, it wasn't seen by most folks as pergury. It's not logical. I know. But most people aren't. Most people just kinda said, "Well I don't know who to believe so if he's voted out I'll know he did it."

Going to bed. If you wanna respond to me, drop me an email. It's really late here.

Grant: Maybe you're right. They didn't do it so they parhaps thought it over and agreed with you (whoever I mean here by "they").

And I've forgotten that Clinton wanted badly to win a Nobel Peace Prize through the negotiations with Barak and Arafat. (Which brought us the by-now famous turn-down by Arafat of everything the Palestinians had previously said they desired. And so...)

Grant...Wouldn't Gore of been instantly identified as part of the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION OF DISHONOR? That probably would have been superbly easy to run against (especially for the Republicans) and sealed Gore's fate for sure if you ask me... The 2000 Election would have been framed as Bush vs. The Party of Clinton and Clinton's Lackie Al Gore.

Actually I believe Gore would have been a lock unless of course he did what Ford did in 1976, pardon Clinton the year before the election, than your analyses would be ever so true, without that however, Gore for sure.

The Republicans never could muster the votes to remove Clinton from office and the country moved on…

Have to disagree with this. Perot 19% in 1992 and 8% in 1996. That makes Naders 4% look like peanuts. Clinton divided and conquered, hard to get 50% that way. But that was the playing field, Clinton controlled it, he won that way.

Clinton stepping down would have been like an unnecessary concession of defeat and the country wouldn't have moved on. Not in only 2 years time…

Grant, I voted Clinton, I believe Miklos voted Clinton, we would have moved on. Only the most partisan would not, what 20-30%?

Just why in the hell did Ford pardon Nixon when he did, anyway? That has to be one of the dumbest ideas any President has ever had in all of history. Wasn't there someone there to say to him, "Uh, Mr. President, we think that would be political suicide, sir"?

I've never understood this one. Read alot of history. Never understood it. Laughed my ass off to the episode of That 70's Show that dealt with it (the one where Eric streaks with a Nixon mask in front of the Prez and Red asks Ford why he did it to his face). Still never understood it, even then.

And I'm actually gonna leave...right...now.

Pat Buchanan was Deep Throat, by the way.

And I'm out.

Saw a great comment somewhere, I'll have to paraphrase since the old lightbulb didn't go on quick enough.

"Americans want a "Great Man" for president but great men don't run for president, politicians with outsized egos and a neurotic lust for power run for president and the American people make them great men."

Maybe Nader was right, and the difference between a Gore Administration and a Bush administration or even a Nader administration might be far less than we imagine. I suspect 9-11 would have flattened out the differences even more.

I realize this ain't going to be a popular opinion in this raging hormone political season but to mangle another quote "events are in the saddle and ride mankind."

It is funny you say that Grant I've said for years I thought Pat Buchanan was deep throat. Since Ben Bradley, Woodward and Bernstein won't divulge the persons name while they are alive it will be interesting as people like Al Haig etc. exit this life the list of possibilities can be wittled down until the choices become more obvious.

There have been other occasions Grant where you have reached similar conclusions on your own that parallel mine. The 1964 election comparison of Bush = Kennedy had he lived as well as a potential Republican split Libertarian/Social Consrvative that parallels the Civil Rights/Segregation split the Democrats suffered by the Dems.

Voting for Nader as a protest against the lameness of Gore is an entirely rational decision. And, if you are a strong dem, than much the same motivations should be in play this year as well. Kerry is, in many ways, equally as lame.

If I knew how to be a bookie I think I could make a real killing. The press is carrying on as though Kerry has a real chance to win. If Kerry is nominated, he has, IMHO, about a 5% chance of winning. Here's why:

1) Kerry has zero charisma. He is generally unliked by his colleagues and for good reason. He is stiff, aloof, condescending, remote and unnapproachable. Non-existent sense of humor. Cannot and will not connect with joe sixpack.A true WASP in it's most negative connotation.

2)Voting record is long and extremely LIBERAL. To the left of Kennedy on most issues. His voting record places him conspicuously outside the mainstream and leaves him very vulnerable to attack. No less liberal than Dukakis and Mondale.

3)On defense issues, his service in Vietnam will not immunize him for his disgraceful record of voting against every single effort to upgrade or modoernize our military in the past 15 years. Regardless of whether he may be right on any given vote, cumulatively his voting record on defense is so abysmal as to virtually disqualify him from being commander-in-chief in time of war.

4) Bush, for all his warts and not-infrequent incoherence, has established himself in the public eye as a man who means what he says and says what he means. At least, insofar as that is possible for a professional politician. No one seriously questions that he will do whatever it takes to protect the country from "evil" outside forces. To many, this tough talk and action is childish and needlessly belligerent. To many more, it is reassuring and a sign of leadership. He has clearly established himself as a leader, a crucial qualification for re-election.

5) Lastly, Bush will win because he beat a popular incumbent VP when the incumbent VP had everything going for him. Bush was a relative unknown and was up against a genuinely popular and extremely well-known VP during a good economy. And he still beat him. 4 years later, his quiver of arrows has grown significantly and his opponent's has not. Bush and his people know how to campaign and how to win.

For those who would argue that the atmosphere of "war" is receding, I agree that may be true. However, headlines every day scream at us about the many foreign affair hotspots churning around the globe. Bush benefits from the uncertainty and anxiety such news generates and will continue to do so. The residual effects of 9/11 will help Bush and hurt Kerry far beyond Nov 2004.

Taken together, these factors indicate that it is extremely unlikely that the nation will turn away from a proven, if somewhat controversial wartime president, and give the job to a totally unproven liberal senator from Mass. The press likes a horse race and all the talk of Kerry's poll numbers versus Bush is little more than an effort to gin up that horse race so the political cmmentators have something to keep them occupied.

This was always the funniest thing from the 2000 election:

"More significantly is this: Election models showed Gore with an Electoral College lock, every prediction of a Candidate losing the Popular Vote but winning the Electoral College had Gore winning. The kicker with that is I remember seeing one of these analyses and said “Tough shit, that’s the way the Constitution is written!” Man did I change my tune when the tables turned."

Oh and Grant, yer not missing anything by not going to Grad School in NYC.

I voted for Harry Browne in 2000 for pretty much the same reasons Michael voted for Nader. This time, I'm holding my nose (well, at least one nostril, anyway) and voting for Bush.

Never voted Republican for president, but if Kerry is the nominee, I say "Viva Bush!"

Don't kid yourself - Kerry will win. Americans want something for nothing, Kerry will wave a piece of cheese and get the public to wander out onto the railroad tracks.

A cycnic would say Bush did too well in the War on Terror, as now the American public is back to bitching about getting their fair share of gubbmint cheese at taxpayer expense instead of focusing on the survival of their civilization.

Oddly Bush is just as "generous" with my money, but he doesn't seem as "caring" -- so he is screwed.

I suppose this is also foreign policy, but I tend to think of foreign policy in military, not economic, terms

Wow! This is perhaps the lamest comment yet by Totten. I'll repeat this just so I make sure I've got it right; "I think of foreign policy in military not economic terms". That is a stunning statement. Now I think I see why Totten is a Bush fan because they seem to think alike in terms of foreign policy. Since Bush didn't have the patience to build a coalition or to even be remotely diplomatic we end up trying to solve foreign policy issues militarily. That simply is not a winning strategy. Will never work.

As it turns out economic policy has a lot more to do with foreign policy that you might think. Even a nearly completely domestic issue such as the federal deficit has major global economic implications. Shame on Totten for not knowing or at least acknowledging that. Perhaps you might want to rethink today's post.

"Bush...beat a popular incumbent VP when the incumbent VP had everything going for him"...

I would argue that Bush didn't exactly beat Al Gore. Al Gore beat Al Gore. Bush just happened to be the "not Al Gore" candidate from the other party in the right place at the right time. There wasn't much of a mandate either way. Gore's campaign for the Presidency was probably the worst-run campaign in modern times: That's why he lost.

Since Bush didn't have the patience to build a coalition or to even be remotely diplomatic

Oh Graham give up, this is lame! Bush already has the more clean allies with him. The rest are “oil for food” traitors. He went to the UN got a resolution and the UN once again proved to have no desire or ability to act upon it. It is a miracle and to his credit he was able to neutralize these people whose interests were to cover there own asses and no one else’s. Your multilateral patience sells us down the river, idiotic and will never sell, thank God!

Gore's campaign for the Presidency was probably the worst-run campaign in modern times: That's why he lost

Actually Grant, Gore lost for all of the reasons stated there are many. But furthermore, follow you own Bush-Kennedy logic and look at the 1960 election. Likeability was a key factor then as well. And you rightfully pointed out that Kennedy also lost the popular vote (un-officially) as well. The hanky panky in 1960 makes 2000 look like a church gathering.

Graham...

Number One: You say Bush "didn't have the patience to build a coalition". That's strange. Last time I checked some odd 65 COUNTRIES signed on to this War. Sixty-five nations seems to constitute a coalition, if you ask me. We didn't go through the U.N. and pissed off the French: That's what really bothers you. Next time just say it.

Number Two: You say that solving "foreign policy issues militarily" is not a "winning strategy" and "will never work". Perhaps you failed to notice where Saddam Hussein is today. Perhaps you've overlooked the fact he's not going to be steamrolling into Kuwait again anytime soon. Why don't you go and ask the average Iraqi citizen whether or not toppling Saddam's regime "works" for them and constitutes a "winning strategy" in their eyes.

Save your unacknowledged shame for yourself, buddy. And spare us the cheap shots.

Candid enough for you, Samuel?

Last time I checked some odd 65 COUNTRIES signed on to this War

Care to show a list of those countries and their relative troop strengths? Having the Brits with 45,000 troops is OK. How about Italy, Spain, Australia? C'mon many of those nations in the "coalition of this willing" signed a paper and that was pretty much the extent of it. Slovenaia was on the list at one point. What exactly was Slovenia contributing? I'm also glad that Eritrea was on board as well. Look, the fact remains, that the US is doing almost all of the work on this "project". Honestly, Saddam wasn't going to go rolling into Kuwait any time soon with or without US intervention. So I consider that a tautological point. Further, I will ask again; Where are those weapons of mass destruction that were an IMMINENT threat? Care to answer?

Hussein not being in power any longer I agree is great for the Iraqis. I'm glad we spent over $100billion to do it. Now, what could $100 billion have provided for our citizens at home. C'mon don't try to take this "holier than thou" attitude by saying what a great thing it was without acknowledging that we have real problems in this country that are not being dealt with. The point I would like to make about a REAL coalition is that you end of making the other coalition members pay a significant chunk of money for it. This is what happend in Gulf War I. THe US didn't have nearly the financial burden in that war afterwards. In Gulf War II we have far exceeded that and I see no end in sight.

Samuel,
Your multilateral patience sells us down the river, idiotic and will never sell, thank God

When the alternative is attacking a country which did not attack (or even threaten) us first and then incurring 550 troop casualties and THOUSANDS of injuries and $100bln+ in costs... yeah, I think multilateral patience might be in order.

Graham: Shame on Totten for not knowing or at least acknowledging that.

Oh, calm down. I acknowledged it in the very same sentence you are complaining about.

"We didn't go through the U.N. and pissed off the French: That's what really bothers you. Next time just say it."

Slight correction.

We DID go through the U.N. Or at least, we tried to. France had significant financial interests in the Hussein regime and rebuffed our attempts.

In the end, Bush decided to not wait on a "permission slip" (his very excellent words on ths sitution) and went ahead without 3 members of the U.N. - France, Germany and Russia.

Democrats have made their position very clear on this point in the last year. An "International Coalition" means France, Germany and Russia. Once those three agree, it does not matter what the other hundreds of nations in the world think - you then have an "international coalition".

If they don't agree, you don't.

The only question is whether you waste any time listening to this kind of flawed, partisian rhetoric or you laugh at liberals who don't understand that France, Germany and Russian opposed Iraqi invasion for financial reasons and nothing else.

There is no middle ground and there is no logic left here. The debate is over and the aftermath is another alternation of language to redefine "International".

Graham,

I have alot of hell from Holocaust in my family history, the unmarked graves mean more to me by comparisan.

***We DID go through the U.N. Or at least, we tried to. France had significant financial interests in the Hussein regime and rebuffed our attempts***

I have been waiting patiently for months now to hear exactly how a dem prez would have convinced the French to go along. The critics are big on pointing out Bush's alleged failure to build a coalition but not one has ever explained why France is so important or just exactly how we could have changed their position. Basically, these critics were willing to give the French veto power over American national security.

Roark...

Thanks for correcting me, though I wish we hadn't even tried to take it to the United Nations. Taking it to the United Nations only further legitimized them as a moral institutional body. They're not. We waited TOO long, if you ask me, when we knew the whole damn time that it wasn't going to happen. I think Bush only went to the UN to silence his critics, never actually believing for a second it would pass: To save face. That's politics, I suppose.

In a way, I wish he would have just publicly called the UN out for what it's become, refused to have any part in hypocrisy like that, and called for the formation of a new international body willing to fight for liberal democracy. Then again, I'm also glad he went and at least did the job of exposing the corruption for all to see.

And another thing: I am a liberal, Roark. Not all of us are anti-war, you know. I'm as pro-war as they come. The liberal position on defense for years was the Wilsonian one: That we ought to be actively engaged in democratizing the world through the means of an international cooperation. For some reason, today's liberal establishment still believes in international cooperation but has forgotten why it ever did in the first place. In short, they now still support Wilsonian means but have abandoned the cause of Wilsonian ends.

I have not abandoned my liberal Wilsonian ends and that makes me all the more liberal for it. Please don't mistake contemporary pacifist "liberal" dogma for everlasting liberal principle. Those who, today, champion "liberalism" by saying we "shouldn't go to war because we want to but only because we have to" or as some "last resort" are hardly true liberals at all. (Or as Joe Lieberman put it, they "don't know a just war when they see it".)

I for one don't give two shits whether or not we necessarily HAD TO go to war in Iraq or whether there was some imminent threat involved. We went, and now because of it some odd 20 or 25 million people no longer have to live under authoritarian slavery. That's reason enough if you're a true liberal and truly believe Woodrow Wilson's vision of a world made safe for democracy and human rights is something worth fighting for.

In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "And that's all I have to say about that." Sorry if it read like a manifesto, but it needed to be said.

PS...

At the bleeding heart of a truly liberal foreign policy is humanitarian interventionism. The humanitarian case for War in Iraq far surpassed what it did in Kosovo. Any of you anti-war types want to take me on on that one?

I want the anti-war people to just come right out and say what they really think: War is justified if no American lives are risked or lost. War is not justified if one American life is lost. Doesn't matter the reason, the situation, the cause. Admit it. Maybe it's a valid point but just admit it and stop with the dammed hypocritical incoherence.

Democrats couldn't give a f*ck who wins in November, as long as it's not Bush

Did you see Dean's response to Kurtz's article?

Wow. I honestly haven't seen that kind of vitriol aimed at a member of the press since Gov. Ventura took the "jackal" nametags down.

If I was Dean, I'd be kinda pissed off too after reading something like that. It might be true. Who knows. But if it's not, I think Howard Dean's got every reason to be pretty peeved.

Always thought his campaign had more in common with Jesse Ventura's than it did John McCain's, anyway.

Graham, I believe it was the British in the days of empire who coined the term "trade follows the flag". That means foreign policy is military-led, with economic interest tagging on behind. Or maybe you think sanctions would have done for Saddam?

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