Michael J. Totten: Quiz Time

February 20, 2004

Quiz Time

This is great. The funniest political quiz I’ve seen yet. (I suppose that’s like saying “the best horror movie from Greenland,” but whatever.)

Are you a liberal, a conservative, a libertarian, or a communist? The communist answers are the best.

Some teasers:

What should people not be allowed to do in public?

CONS: Offend the sensibilities of others.
LIBL: Offend the sensitivities of others.
LBRT: Offend the sensibilities of yourself.
COMM: Offend the sensitivities of the authorities.

What's the best way to stop people from illegally crossing our borders?

CONS: Seal the borders so no one can get in.
LIBL: Do nothing to beef up security at the borders, and offer illegal aliens a wide array of free services.
LBRT: Allow unrestricted passage across the borders.
COMM: Seal the borders so no one can get out.

Via Porphyrogenitus.

Posted by Michael J. Totten at February 20, 2004 12:30 AM

Comments

Here's one I just don't get:

"How do you feel about copyrights and patents?

LBRT: The problem with patents and copyrights is that they eventually expire. Patents and copyrights should last forever. Why should The State get to assign some arbitrary time limit after which the creator gets robbed of his intellectual property protection?"

I have never heard of this as a Libertarian perspective. After all, patents and copyrights are state-granted (and more importantly, enforced) monopolies. Why would a libertarian argue for making them bigger?

Posted by: Boobah at February 20, 2004 01:45 AM

Boobah:

I can't speak for Libertarianism in general, but intellectual property enjoys significant property rights under Objectivism. As Ayn Rand put it,

The government does not "grant" a patent or copyright, in the sense of a gift, privilege, or favor; the government merely secures it -- i.e., the government certifies the origination of an idea and protects its owner's exclusive right of use and disposal. A man is not forced to apply for a patent or copyright; he may give his idea away, if he so chooses; but if he wishes to exercise his property right, the government will protect it, as it protects all other rights. ... The patent or copyright notice on a physical object represents a public statement of the conditions on which the inventor or author is willing to sell his product: for the purchaser's use, but not for commercial reproduction.

Ayn Rand, "Patents and Copyrights" in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, p. 131.

Posted by: Joshua Harris at February 20, 2004 05:31 AM

"Wanting to abolish the Dept of Commerce" makes you a Communist? I guess this means I have to take down my pinup calendar of Hayek (Friedrich, not Salma).

Posted by: Percy Dovetonsils at February 20, 2004 07:10 AM

Objectivism - espousing rent-seeking behavior since September 2.

Posted by: Hipocrite at February 20, 2004 08:37 AM

Okay, I don't get the "rent-seeking behavior" thing but let me say this much:

Objectivists give me the willies. Any group that can unabashedly advocate the repeal of child labor laws as the "rationally moral" course of action is damn spooky. Shame I know so many of them. Why do I know so many of them?! Ughhh.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 20, 2004 10:04 AM

Damn, that list is long!

CONS: Then don't read all of them. And get back to work anyway.

LIBL: Yes, some governmental agency should set and enforce size limits on lists like those.

LIBT: Read 'em all; don't read 'em all. Stop your bitching!

COMM: If it is the Will of the Party that you read the entire list, that's what you'll do.

Posted by: Matt Ward at February 20, 2004 10:45 AM

Objectivists give me the willies. Any group that can unabashedly advocate the repeal of child labor laws as the "rationally moral" course of action is damn spooky. Shame I know so many of them. Why do I know so many of them?! Ughhh.

There are varying degrees of Objectivism, you know. We're not all as extreme as that. ;-) (I, for example, don't support the repeal of child labor regulations per se, because I believe children are incapable of rationally making those types of decisions).

Posted by: Joshua Harris at February 20, 2004 11:06 AM

Well, Joshua Harris, I can respect your varying degrees of Objectivism. Maybe you could teach your fellow travelers a thing or two.

I posed the question of child labor to a group of about 25 Objectivists at Purdue University one time...

...and 3 took your side.

I think you're right on, however, in making an Objectivist argument AGAINST child labor. Ayn would have likely said the same.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 20, 2004 01:15 PM

What's with the "per se", though? Are there some 7-year olds somewhere that are fully capable of making adult rational decisions?! I know alot of ADULTS not capable of making adult rational decisions, for Christ's sake. But yet, you waffle with a "per se".

Uh-oh...sounds like relativism to me. ;)

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 20, 2004 01:19 PM

You realize of course that the net effect of child labor laws is to decrease the wealth opportunites of poor people, especially rural people?

PS: I am not an objectivist.

Posted by: ex-democrat at February 20, 2004 01:21 PM

Child labor forsakes a child's education and intellectual growth. If rural America wants to grow more crops at the expense of their children's futures then rural America can kiss my ass. If they can't manage to efficiently turn a livable profit for themselves, then they're in the wrong workfield: A field with insufficient demand.

And, since we're on the subject, agricultural subsidies are a load of crap. We subsidize a fraction of the world's farmers, our own, at the expense of...oh...the entire continent of Africa. The day we end the subsidizing of American and European agriculture is the day the third-world will actually have a chance to eradicate starvation and hunger for themselves and their children. We'll also be able to, for the first time ever, consume these crops at market-value.

Special interests, if you can't tell, kinda piss me off.

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 20, 2004 01:47 PM

So you think the government should have more say than parents? On what ground?

As for the rest, I agree -- but of courese then we would BURDEN the health systems of Africa with more FAT PEOPLE since greedy Big Fast Food would "exploit" them with cheap, delicious food. ;)

Posted by: ex-democrat at February 20, 2004 01:53 PM

What's with the "per se", though? Are there some 7-year olds somewhere that are fully capable of making adult rational decisions?! I know alot of ADULTS not capable of making adult rational decisions, for Christ's sake. But yet, you waffle with a "per se".

I included "per se" because, while I support child labor regulations in principle, I think some of the current law is flawed and needs correction. That is, I support child labor laws when they are properly designed.

And, since we're on the subject, agricultural subsidies are a load of crap. We subsidize a fraction of the world's farmers, our own, at the expense of...oh...the entire continent of Africa. The day we end the subsidizing of American and European agriculture is the day the third-world will actually have a chance to eradicate starvation and hunger for themselves and their children. We'll also be able to, for the first time ever, consume these crops at market-value.

Actually, I've seen studies showing that American farmers would actually be better off without agricultural subsidies. Of course, even if African farmers are able to gain market share in the US, I doubt it'll do them any real good. The problem Africa has is a lack of law and order (and the lack of an organized economy). African farms can't attract capital, because the situation is too unstable and unsure, and as a result the farmers use outdated methods that produce low crop yields and ruin the land (see the issue of desertification, for example).

Posted by: Joshua Harris at February 20, 2004 03:14 PM

Yes, the government should have more say than the parents when it comes to deciding whether or not to educate a child.

I'm not even saying here that it's gotta be public schools. Public/Private, whatever (so long as it respects the separation of church and state). All I'm saying is that, yes, education should be mandatory. And someone's got to enforce that.

I think even our Objectivist friend Josh would have to agree to that. Six-Seven-Eight year old kids need to be in school, not out working 40+ hours a week. I can't believe I'm even having to argue this point. And you were a Democrat, once?!

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 20, 2004 05:57 PM

(so long as it respects the separation of church and state)

Eh? Now, I pretty much agree with you that education should be mandatory (at least through one or two years of high school), but why do you want to prohibit parents from sending their children to religious schools? Parents should have significant latitude in deciding which school will best educate their children, whether that's a parochial school or secular institution. If no taxpayer money is involved, and the school provides a decent education, what's the issue with allowing parents to enroll their children there?

Posted by: Joshua Harris at February 20, 2004 06:21 PM

Ah...but taxpayer money SHOULD be involved Josh.

Free-markets are great. I'm all for them. But the availability of some things shouldn't be determined by the forces of supply and demand, the power of capital and commerce.

All children deserve an equal education, Josh. Is the educational opportunity equal today? Not hardly. But it's a whole hell of alot better than it was 100 years ago. Under your plan, it would frankly be much much worse.

Adults of wealth and privilege are deserved of their status in life, more or less, because they earned it through hard work and innovation. In a capitalist society, social mobility allows for such a thing. And it should. But ask yourself this: Have their children earned it? Moreover, do the children of impoverished parents deserve a childhood of poverty because THEY earned it?

Do you punish the children for the sins of the father and mother? Is that just?

If the educational opportunity of children was left for the markets to decide, what you would find is a vast difference in the quality of education. A kid born into this world with a silver spoon in his mouth would get the finest education available. But, a child born into poverty and violence would only recieve what their parents could afford to buy, both in quality and quantity: A couple of years, perhaps, under the guidance of the worst educators in America (if they were so lucky).

The best teachers would want to work for the very best schools because the very best schools could afford to pay them the most. I believe this holds true to the Objectivist principle of virtuous selfishness, does it not? That it is both rational and virtuous to act out of your own self-interest?

The very richest parents would then send their children to the very best schools for the very best education from the very best teachers.

The very poorest parents would then send their children to the cheapest schools available because it would be all they could afford. Their children would then recieve the very poorest education from the very poorest teachers whom no one else would hire.

The cycle of poverty would, therefore, continue inevitably from generation to generation and social mobility would no longer exist for there would be no educational opportunity whatsoever for impoverished children. We would, in essence, return to the dark ages.

It all comes back to the philosophical question posed earlier: Is it just to punish the children for the sins of the father and mother. To answer yes is to refute everything that Objectivism stands for.

Knowledge truly is power, my friend. Or at least the pathway to power. It opens doors. I argue for a level playing field of access to knowledge and power. A level playing field of equal opportunity benifits everyone because the greatest from among us will naturally succeed. The more level the playing field and larger the pool, the more the intelligent and innovative can progress society. That's how capitalism is supposed to work, right?

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 20, 2004 07:43 PM

On a similar and related note...

Would you abolish the public libraries? Privatize them? Run them for profit?

A private library would be acting in its own best and virtuous interest by charging a membership fee. The very best quality libraries would then be available only to those who could afford the highest fees, correct?

Is that just?

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 20, 2004 07:54 PM

My drugs of choice are...

CONS: ethyl alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine.

If my only drug of choice is caffeine, does that make me a neoconservative?

Posted by: Alan K. Henderson at February 20, 2004 11:24 PM

Grant: I responded to your education argument here.

As to public libraries, I suppose this is one of the instances where I support government intervention. If I had to give a position, I'd say that I'm a proponent of the Library of Congress, and that cities (and some other communities) should provide public libraries, albeit supported by grants and small annual membership fees (somewhere in the range of $15-$50). However, yes, I believe that if the finest private libraries (usually university libraries) want to restrict access to those who pay their fees, that's their right. Remember, access to the finest collections of books in the world is not a right. If people aren't willing to accept the terms of the entity that owns the books, the entity has the right to refuse them access.

Posted by: Joshua Harris at February 21, 2004 07:33 AM

Joshua...

Hey man, I never said I was arguing against the existance of private libraries. I dunno what I'd do without the university library on campus, so I know what you're saying. I just mean that there ought to be both public and private ones, that's all.

I'm a liberal, Josh, not a socialist. ;)

Posted by: Grant McEntire at February 21, 2004 08:14 AM

Testing linking here
<a href="http://pslasswell.blogspot.com/2004_01_25_pslasswell_archive.html#107542745283255137" test

sorry, prolly wrong.

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